You still have more chinese food restaurants. More Chinese Restaurants. More than 45,000, and growing every year, about ten percent. Hinojosa so how is that possible . Because people think, you know what . You have fast food everywhere in the United States. Or theres an image. So the truth is that in fact chinese food is. More pervasive, yeah. Hinojosa more a part of who we are, in a way. Exactly, exactly. Because, you know, as i like to say, you know, if our benchmark for americanness is apple pie, you should ask yourself, when was the last time you ate apple pie versus when was the last time you ate chinese food . I think for the vast, vast majority of people, they will have eaten chinese food, whether its general gaus chicken, or beef with broccoli, or, you know, fried rice more recently. Hinojosa so you grew up on the Upper West Side of manhattan. Yes. Hinojosa new york city. And in, you would say, what, a traditional chinese family, relatively traditional . Yeah, with a mom and dad. My parents came over in the 1970s as part of the. You know, the open door act that sort of let more educated immigrants in, and a lot more people from asia. And then they came here, and they had three little babies, bump, bump, bump, thats me, my sister, and my brother. Hinojosa by the way, j, f, k. Its true. My name is jennifer, my sisters name is frances, and my brothers name is kenneth. And if you take our initials, it spells jfk, which my parents like to say is the airport that they landed at when they came to america. Hinojosa when you were growing up, did you have this kind of constant critical perspective of, what is the food that im eating as a chinese firstborn in this country, versus, what is the food thats being eaten in my Upper West Side new york city neighborhood, and kind of this. Or were you just like, you know what . Im a new yorker, or, im a chinese immigrant . Yeah, no, i was, like, a kid. No, i was a kid, and to be honest, when i was growing up, i loved beef and broccoli and, like, you know, roast pork lo mein. And my mom actually would tell me, you know, thats not real chinese food. And im like, what do you mean its not real chinese food . We get it from the chinese takeout on the corner, right . Hinojosa so you guys would call. Or i would go down. We didnt have to call, because, you know, i was, like, you know, ten years old, and id go, bop bop bop ba. You know, because its on the block, and you just go, and you say, i want beef with broccoli, roast pork, fried rice, and your chicken lo mein. You know, egg rolls or two. And we would eat it. And i actually didnt understand that there was that significant a difference between, like, chinese food and this takeout until i went to china. Because i just felt like, well, my mom might not be, like, the greatest cook. Or the fact, that, you know, like, pizza. Like, pizza is very different, what you get in a cafeteria versus what you get in a restaurant, right . So im just like, oh, maybe, like, my mom doesnt have, like, the right, like, you know, wok, or the right kind of stove. Hinojosa so you actually liked the chinese food from the restaurant. Oh, its so much better, because its full of msg, you know, or it was full of msg. Hinojosa your poor mom. Did you tell her that . Were you like, mom, i like the chinese food from the restaurant better . Hinojosa i think she knew. I mean, shes like, oh, thats not real chinese food. And i couldnt understand what she was talking about, right . But then, you know, we would go to flushing, which was the. You know, the chinatown for the taiwan immigrants at that time. And then they would order like, you know, big fishes with, like, the eyes sticking out, or, like, you know, chicken claws, or, like, you know, cows tongue. Like there were all these, like, bits of animal that you dont see in an american supermarket. And then i was like, why cant we order beef fried rice, or whatever. And theyre like, thats not chinese food. Like, dont do that. But in my reference to the world, you know, it was chinese food, and it was going to china when i was older that i was able to sort of understand, oh, wait, this is really different, you know . And in traveling the world and also spending a lot time studying in taiwan i understood suddenly, like, oh, my god, chinese food adapts. Like, when you go to mexico theres. You know, they have things that look like fajitas. And if you go to france you have salt and pepper frog legs. You know . So its actually only in this larger context, you know, comparative food, that you begin to understand the role that chinese food has had and how its sort of adapted. Hinojosa so were you a foodie when you were growing up . Not particularly. Hinojosa do you consider yourself a foodie now . You know, i dont, actually. I think i consider myself sort of, like, a food, like, expert, and i really enjoy, like, food, and analyzing food. But the reason i dont is because my boyfriend considers himself a foodie. And even though he only eats five substances, which is, like, bread, tofu, cheese, pasta, and, like, desserts. Like, hes a carbotarian. And he gets so upset. Hinojosa carbotarian . Hes a carbotarian. Hes a. Hinojosa is this another word that you created, jennifer . Because youre known for actually coming up with a few things. You created mandate. Oh, i helped popularize mandate. But i had overheard it in some context. Hinojosa and lets just make it clear its not a mandate for something. Like a mandate of heaven, right . Hinojosa its a man date. Yes. Hinojosa what was the other thing that you popularized . I. I think. Lets see, what else have i popularized . I popularized the idea that neveah, which is heaven spelled backwards, is the Fastest Growing baby name in the United States ever in terms of its history. So yeah, carbotarian, i think it should exist. Im sure if you googled it it would exist. I happen to, you know, use it as applied to him. And its interesting, because he gets upset. Because he is a foodie within those very narrow categories. And he. You know, hes like, shes not a foodie. Im a foodie. You know, she. Because to me food is fascinating from, like, an intellectual perspective, and i definitely enjoy, like, oh, trying that and that. Like, oh, you know, what is, like, you know, szechuan alligator like, in terms of cajun chinese food . Lets go try it. And so im. Hinojosa thats right, because you did do that, right . There was this szechuan alligator. There was the other. You have these fascinating stories in this book that actually has got. Well, it was a bestseller, but you also got, like, a big cult following. Yeah. Hinojosa there were some other things that i remember. There was one about the story of the chinese food thats kosher in the south, that people drive four hours to and from to get. Totally. The jews love chinese food, or as i like to say, you know, why is chow mein the chosen food of the chosen people . And they will go to great lengths. Theres a basic. Its basically a takeout. It was called hai peking. And it. People would fly. My favorite example is the guy who flew his little plane from tennessee to atlanta to pick up, you know, chinese food for their big synagogue banquet, you know, because it was glatt kosher chinese food. So it was very, very, very specialized. And its, like the only glatt kosher Chinese Restaurant within 700 miles. And they would deliver by fed ex, you know . Thats, like, pretty hard core. They would, like, you know, cook it, freeze it on dry ice, and then they would, you know, ship it the next day. Hinojosa so what is it. You know, i actually. When i was reading your book, and i said to people. Its like, gosh, you know, i really hadnt. I mean, i guess if i had thought about it i would have put the fact that chinese food and jewish people. Yeah. Yeah, youre in new york. Hinojosa right. But, like, until i read it, i was like, oh, my gosh, its really true. And i hadnt thought about the fact that. This other great fact, which is Chinese Restaurants, their biggest day of sale is. Christmas, by far, yeah. And its really funny, because if you watched the hearings for elena kagan the other day, one of the questions they asked her, you know, was, like, where were you Christmas Day . Because that was the day of the bombing. And she was at first, like, very defensive, because she didnt know, whether, you know, it was a terror question, or whatever. And theyre like, no, we just want to know where you were. And she laughed, and said, well, like all jews, i was probably at a Chinese Restaurant. And in new york city especially, its sometimes twice as popular at least, compared to your next popular. Your second most popular day. Because, you know, for a long time Chinese Restaurants were the ones that were open on christmas. And it just became this interesting American Jewish tradition. And its specific to america. I mean, its not like theyre doing this in israel. Hinojosa its also because of the fact that these are two immigrant groups that are not christian. Yeah, the two largest nonchristian immigrant groups. And they. You know, so Chinese Restaurants are open on sundays, you know, and theyre open on christmas, when jews wanted to go out to eat, whereas everyone else was sort of in their day of rest. And other things. You know, chinese food doesnt use dairy, which is really critical. Because there was a time when many, many, many more jews kept kosher, right . Whereas the two other main ethic cuisines in america are italian and mexican, both of which use, you know, significant amounts of dairy. Hinojosa well, actually, in mexico, they dont really use that much dairy. Oh, interesting. Hinojosa thats americanized mexican food. Yeah. Hinojosa actually, its kind of low dairy in mexico. Its the same thing, you know . The mexican food in mexico is actually. Totally diff. That also was very shock. Like, you know, burritos, like, not mexican. Like, what is that all about . I know. Hinojosa no, no. Now they have burritos in mexico, because they want to. Its a strange thing that happens. Spaghetti and meatballs, also not italian. Its this. Its interesting, right . Because its part of this phenomenon that i call indigenous chinese. Oh, sorry, indigenous foreign cuisine, that we think of them as foreign or exotic or ethnic, but in fact they were developed in america. So the burritos, italian spaghetti and meatballs. So what happens is this book tries to make you think twice of, like, what it means to be american, right . That in fact you think of it. You may think of it as something foreign, when in fact people in china, you know, or maybe even in mexico, whatever, dont recognize this food when you show it to them. You know, Fortune Cookies, of course, is the canonical example, and hence why my book. Hinojosa speaking of Fortune Cookies, well, you did write a book called the Fortune Cookie chronicles, inspired by this story about Fortune Cookies and lotto ticket winners and the fact that all of these people had won this huge lottery. 110 people came in second, march 30, 2005. Hinojosa and it was all from numbers that they got. Yeah. Hinojosa okay, so were going to open. Now, these Fortune Cookies. Those are special. Those are not your typical. Hinojosa these are not your typical. Vanilla Fortune Cookies, right . Hinojosa these i would eat, i have to be honest with you. Yes, i know, i know. I would say that fresh Fortune Cookies are actually really good. But the ones that are kind of shipped and. Hinojosa but these are special because theyre chocolate, right . Yeah. Hinojosa its the chocolate. All right, so now were going to read this fortune. It says, spring has sprung, life is blooming. Now, youre going to look at this. This has got numbers and everything. Oh, yeah. And now theres a whole, like, learn chinese phenomenon on. That has, you know, been sparked in the last couple of years. Hinojosa from these Fortune Cookies. So what do we know, jennifer, after you wrote your book the Fortune Cookie chronicles, what do we know about where these little pieces of thought came to be and why. Because theyre not actually. Theyre not chinese, and theyre not american. In fact, you know, my, like, main intellectual contribution to this planet at this point is probably kind of helping to prove that Fortune Cookies are japanese in origin,. And we know this for two reasons, one which is still today in japan, outside kyoto, they have small familyrun bakeries that are making Fortune Cookies by hand. But theyre not yellow, theyre not small. Theyre, like, this kind of big, brown, very nutty flavored kind of Fortune Cookie. And they dont do them with machines. Its very much an artisan craft. So thats one. And two, there is a drawing from the late 1800s that a japanese researcher dug up through many, many, many hours of sifting through the archives in japan, and it shows a man in a kimono, you know, back then, in an etched kind of drawing, making Fortune Cookies. And together, we know that. And so what happened is that the japanese immigrants came to america around the turn of the 20th century, and they brought. You know, some of them made, you know, cookies and whatnot for a living. And so they brought some of that over with them. And its been fascinating, because it started out sort of very localized, very californian, kind of like, you know, a very regional thing. But at a certain point it became a big thing. And we were able to sort of track that back to world war ii, in part. Because what happened was they were being kind of served in california, maybe los angeles, but basically in the San Francisco chinatown. And what happened is that San Francisco was such a big port of call, like, during world war ii, and you had all these soldiers going in and out of San Francisco. Of course they went to chinatown in order to eat and to, you know, watch the singing and the dancing. And then they had these cookies, and they go home after the war, they go to minnesota, iowa, and they ask their local Chinese Restaurant, why dont you have those authentic cookies . And the chinese restaurateur goes, what cookies, you know . And but slowly within a span of basically 15 years they go from something thats in california to a nationwide phenomenon. Hinojosa but doesnt it also have to do with the fact that the japanese were interned . Right, right. Hinojosa so. Which i think is the other thing that your book does really interestingly. Because it shows how, you know, while food may be incorporated into part of all of us as americans. Right. Hinojosa . Its been a really hard, sometimes painful, tragic history behind that. Because part of what gave birth to the Fortune Cookie was the fact that the japanese were being interned. Right. So the idea. Well, i kind of basically figured out. And this is something that i pieced together. We know its japanese, and we know its. You know, its basically japanese before world war i, and by the end of world war ii theyre, like, totally chinese. So how did that jump, you know, happen . And what i kind of pieced together was, you know, talking to these. You know, the families that still have these bakeries that are open, i was like, oh, you know, youve been open for three generations. Thats, like, amazing. Theyre like, yeah, you know, weve been open almost 100 years, except for that time when we were all locked up, right . And its part of their. You know, so many of them. Some of them were born there, some of them, you know, had family members that died in internment camps. And so its sort of at this, you know, juncture that you see the chinese moving in. And they take the Fortune Cookie, and they popularize it, you know, because they can make it cheaper and faster and whatnot. And so as i like to say, the japanese invented the Fortune Cookie, the chinese popularized it. But they ultimately are consumed by americans. And so, you know, because you locked up all the japanese, swept up in that were those who made Fortune Cookies. Hinojosa so you. One of the things that you do in your reporting, you did a lot of this when you were a reporter for the New York Times, and you do it so beautifully in your book, is that you take the invisible masses of workers, food workers, so many of them chinese, the men who are delivering the chinese food, the men and women who are cooking, who are taking the orders, and you basically give them life. Right. Hinojosa why was it important for you to take that delivery man, to take that cook at the takeout in, you know, wherever, alabama, and do a story . Why is that important for you . You know, one of the reasons i became a journalist way back when you know, i had this epiphany between high school and college was listening to someone tell me his story about having. He was 16, he had tried to kill himself twice, because he was black and gay, and that combination was sort of very, you know, hard on him. And i had this moment where im like, i want to do this for the rest of my life. I want to give voice to the voiceless. And i think a lot of that comes from, you know, an immigrant background, that, you know, growing up you might not have seen these kinds of stories in the media. And whats kind of been great is, you know, the children of these immigrants, who themselves can be, like, a bridge between, you know, their parents kind of generation, and then also the mainstream society, we can act as that translator in sort of giving context to stories in a way thats not so, like, you know colonial, or sort of, you know, very much kind of, like, you know, arms length. You can write to a perspective that you can have, because you have cultural context. So one of my favorite examples with this chinese immigrant family that i cover is that if you talk to, you know, all these fujianese, who are basically the backbone of the Chinese Restaurant system here, a lot of them come through new york city. And so new york city is their reference to the world, right . So they have new york city, and then they have everywhere else. And they call. Hinojosa but whats interesting is that when they leave china, where theyre leaving is actually a very beautiful place, theres a lot of green, theres a lot of lakes, theres a lot of nature. And then they come into new york city. Which is not, like, green and lakes and nature, basically. Except for maybe a small piece of central park. Hinojosa and its a. And for some. Its very tragic. Hinojosa and its a tremendously long journey. You cover the story of one man from the golden venture. Yes. Hinojosa and his journey was. 120 days, i think, yeah. Hinojosa 120 days. Or his journey might actually have been longer, but the boat itself was about 120 days, right. And so it is. You know, its this immense exodus, right . So that part of china, which is the northern fujian province, around the capitol city of fuzhou, is the number one Chinese Restaurant exporting region in the world. And. Hinojosa in china, do they kind of own that . Are they like, were from this area, were the fujianese, and we export chinese food workers around the world . They. I dont theyre proud of it. They are proud, maybe, of the fact that they go to america, right, and that they. Because they can save money, they can build these mansions. They send, you know, hundreds of thousands, millions of dollars back to these little towns, and then there are these mansions that are weird because theyre empty, right . Because everyones left. So theres a ghost town called houyu, which means monkey island, which is weird, because there are no monkeys and its not really an island. And they are 80 missing. I mean, you just go in there and there are no men of working age. There are women, there are children, and there are old people. Because, you know, theyre in america cooking and taking the order and delivering your chicken. Hinojosa are they going to stay here . I mean, is this. Because again, with your book, youre basically saying they are part of who we are. Right. Hinojosa when you report on these immigrants, is your sense, jennifer, that they are here, that they are. Okay, we are american, we will end up staying here . I think. So its interesting. I dont know that they identify necessarily as, we are american, but they definitely want american citizenship, and they want a better child. A better life for their children. Hinojosa but some of their children are being sent back, even though theyre born here. Thats one fascinating thing. Hinojosa this was heartbreaking. So these fujianese families who come, some of them will. And who are working seven days a week in the Chinese Restaurants that were all eating from. Yeah. Hinojosa they will have babies born here. So theyre american citizens. Hinojosa theyre american citizens. But then theyll send them back to be. Because theyre too busy, yeah. Theyre too busy to raise their own children. So you have these kids who are sent back to be raised by grandpa and grandma. And then they get kind of shipped back to america when theyre, like, ready for school. But they dont know their parents, right . Their parents are almost virtual strangers. And in many cases, theres a lot of heartache and a lot of sort of family issues. And so social workers sort of in and around, like, chinatown have been dealing with this issue over time. You know, in part. Hinojosa over decades. Over decades, yeah. Hinojosa but how come. They call them satellite children sometimes. Hinojosa how come we dont know about these stories . How come these stories, which. Again, chinese immigration to this country is not new. No. Hinojosa its not new. So. Yet so many of these stories are not part of our mainstream understanding. Yeah, i would say that every so once in a while youll get, like, the front page perky interesting story about the babies being shipped back, and then you have a story that kind of comes this way with the kids, you know, having trouble in school. But its not part of. I would say those stories are sort of luxuries to do, in part because you have to know the community really well, you have to spend time to tell that story in a way that leaders. Hinojosa do you believe that the mainstream media. I mean, you worked for the New York Times. I would say the New York Times actually did a pretty good job on the issue of the children in chinatown through a series of immigration reporters that i actually, you know. I dont think i worked on any of those stories directly. Hinojosa but is it still seen kind of in the media that this is. That the chinese, the asian population, is, like, this foreign population, and therefore not american, and therefore. I think part of. I will say that chinatown as chinatown gets a surprising amount of coverage, not just in, you know, new york city, but in cities all over the United States, in part because of this exotic factor, for better or for worse. So if theres a crime or there is some kind of movement or there is some kind of building or theres a conflict, in certain kind of things theyll cover pretty well, compared to other immigrant groups, like, lets say, koreans or. Korean americans or certain kinds of. Like, maybe even south asian americans, i think partially because almost every major city has a chinatown or something thereof, right . And so in sort of the intellectual mind share of any given city, theres always a fascination with chinatown and chinese immigrants. Hinojosa you said that part of why you wanted to write this book was because you wanted to understand your own americanness, and you wanted americans, all of us, to understand who we are. Right. Hinojosa so what dont we understand, and what did you come away understanding better about who you are as an american . And you have this beautiful line in the book that says, if you look at me, you see foreign, but if you hear me. Yeah, you hear someone whos american. And its. And its funny, right . Because youll get this question. Maybe you get it too. Often from cab drivers. Its like, so where are you from . And im like. And, you know, its new york. Here. Theyre like, no, where are you really from . And often its interesting from immigrant people themselves, right . And im like, im really from here. I was born and raised in new york city, and i live here now. I could not be more from anywhere on this planet. And i know they want to say. They really want to know, whats your genetic background . I wish there was. I just wish there was a socially acceptable way to say im genetically chinese. But the idea is that you can look at me, and if youre. And they think youre foreign, which can be useful, you know, if you dont want to speak with them. Because you can be like, oh, no speak english, right . But. Hinojosa you actually do that . I mean, like, ive done, oh, no speak english. But in reality, you know, if youre. If you were to listen to this whole, you know, tape with your eyes closed, you would hear someone whos totally american. And that was so stunning to me, not from the context of being in the United States, but from me traveling around the world. And i would meet, like, latino chinese, and french chinese, and mauritian chinese, and indian chinese. Indian chinese, totally weird, right . They look like me, but they speak hindi, and they wear, you know. Or multiple dialects, because were in india. And they have gold chains, and they sort of move like, you know, in, like. You know, south asians. And youll go to peru, where theyve had, you know, a 150year history of chinese immigration there. Hinojosa and great chinese food. And great chinese food. Hinojosa the best. And they have chinese men who can dance, like, salsa, merengue. And i was like, wow, ive never seen such elastic hips on, like, an asian guy before, right . Its so fascinating. Hinojosa so what do you want. What do you want us to take away from this, jennifer . I think that first of all, this idea of authenticity, of being, like, true, is sort of an artifact. Like, what does it mean to be authentically chinese, right . Because i, in a certain way, am authentically chinese american in a way that general gaus chicken, you know, is not authentically chinese, but its authentic to its time and place. And to recognize that a lot of these things that. Being basically american doesnt mean having a eurocentric view of the world, right . Now. I mean, and its sort of so invisible to us, because society just sort of changes and changes, like, and changes. So, like, you can go to starbucks and get soy milk, which is not originally something, you know, in america. And, you know, we go to a gym in harlem. And some of the people who are best at yoga and its definitely sort of an americanized yoga are these, like, big, black, buff guys, right . Youve seen them, right . Theyre, like amazing on their. Its not. You know, they probably know more yoga than, like the girl. You know, the south asian girls that i went to school with, who dont, you know . And so. You know, and things like, you know, burritos, and the fact that, you know, we celebrate things like Cinco De Mayo sort of, just in the air. Like, oh, time. You know, were going to have a happy hour. Like, these kinds of things have become a big melting pot of what it means to be american. And historically whats going to happen, i think, is that, you know, that perspective is going to become more expansive. And i would hope that over time that our understanding of, you know, americanness becomes broader. And i think all the more powerful now, given whos in the whithouse, right . You know, the face that we are presenting to the world is not necessarily sort of, you know, a white, very anglo kind of face. Hinojosa very hopeful stuff, jennifer. Thank you so much, and thank you for all of your work and for being such a great writer and a great journalist. Thank you so much for having me. Continue the conversation at wgbh. Org oneonone. Funding for overheard with evan smith is provided in part by mfi foundation, improving the quality of life within our community. And from the texas board of legal specialization, Board Certified attorneys in your community. Experienced, respected, and tested. Also by hillco partners, a texas Government Affairs consultancy. And by the Alice Kleberg reynolds foundation. And viewers like you. Thank you. Im evan smith. Shes an Emmy Awardwinning political commentator for abc news and National Public radio and the author of several best selling books including we are our mothers daughters and founding mothers. Her latest is capital dames the civil war and the women of washington, 18481868. Shes cokie roberts, this is overheard. [applause]
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