The great infrastructure of the 21st century I think is surveillance it is what the railroads were in the 1900 century or the interstate highways in the 20th century it's the thing that is connecting everything today we'll explore the pros and cons of living in surveillance nation and it's one thing to be watched what's it like to be the watcher he would crawl around the attic space sharing down below. Couples having intercourse disrobing feeling a little naked we've got you covered with tips for online privacy and more this hour who's watching us. First this. Live from n.p.r. News in Washington I'm Jim Hark Supreme Court nominee Brett Kavanaugh is denying a report published in The New Yorker in which a 2nd woman has come forward to accuse him of sexual abuse the alleged incident took place when Cavanagh was a freshman at Yale University in a statement Cavanaugh said it did not happen Meanwhile the Senate Judiciary Committee says it plans to hold an open hearing Thursday for testimony from Dr Christine bossy Ford who has accused Cavanagh of sexual assault when they were in high school N.P.R.'s Kelsey Snow has more both Kevin of and Ford will appear but they will not be in the room at the same time and they've also agreed to limited press access in a smaller here room that they say will kind of help manage the spectacle that they saw in the earlier part of his confirmation process they also want to give breaks so that forward if she this is expected to be a really emotional time for her and so the committee has agreed to give her breaks as she needs and they've agreed to equal time to every senator who wants to talk for also getting heightened security because both Kavanaugh and Ford have been receiving death threats N.P.R.'s Kelsey Snell reporting at the United Nations more than $130.00 world leaders including President Trump are expected to attend the 73rd high level General Assembly meeting this week representing a nearly 20 percent increase in participation from last year Linda Sewell reports un General Assembly activities are scheduled to begin Monday with a peace summit commemorating the 100th birthday of Nelson Mandela and a high level meeting on financing un sustainable development goals President Trump will kick off his participation at the Annual Gathering by hosting an event Monday on combat in the world drug problem in the evening he and the 1st lady are to hold a reception for the heads of the nearly $200.00 delegations attending the assembly high level meetings this week also include sessions on peacekeeping and fighting to paralyze this and Security Council meeting on nonproliferation of weapons of mass destruction the we. General debate in which we're on leaders address the assembly opens Tuesday for n.p.r. News and soon though in New York and South Carolina now widespread flooding and evacuations continue in some coastal areas from South Carolina Public Radio to Lisa e.-t. Reports one river of concern has crested while another is still rising the little peaty river in Marion County crested late last week water levels are now going down but in Georgetown County flooding is expected by Tuesday residents are encouraged to leave Sunday the walk a mile river near Conway will still rising caging over 1000 feet officials say it may not crest until Thursday Elysia e.-t. Reporting up to 8000 people in Georgetown County South Carolina have been advised to be prepared to evacuate and a North Carolina 5 river gauges are still at major flood stage you're listening to n.p.r. News in Washington. Forecasters say a sub tropical storm Leslie newly formed in the North Atlantic is expected to dissipate in a few days but I should a hurricane center is also keeping watch on what's now Tropical Depression Kirk speeding westward across tropical Atlantic waters present movement as westerly at 25 miles an hour with maximum sustained winds slowing to 35 miles an hour golfer Tiger Woods has won his 1st professional tournament in more than 5 years Sunday he won the season ending Tour Championship in that land by 2 strokes N.P.R.'s Tom Goldman reports it caps a remarkable comeback for the man who once dominated the sport Tiger Woods led this tournament from start to finish his steady dominating place seemed like a throwback to the early 2000 when he ruled the game but the moment of victory in Atlanta was different he didn't throw one of his trademark uppercuts Instead the 42 year old Woods raised his arms and teared up to fail to compete and play again yes when that's another level been gnawing under the skin in recent years his back was so bad he says he couldn't sit or walk without pain last year he had a 4th back surgery a fusion procedure and it worked he gradually progressed the season as he pieced together a less taxing swing and now he has 80 p.g.a. Victories only 2 behind all time leader Sam Snead Tom Goldman n.p.r. News the Gothic family fantasy the house with a clock on its walls easily topped the domestic box office simple favor came in 2nd followed by the nun the predator and crazy rich Asians I'm Jim Hark n.p.r. News in Washington. Support for n.p.r. Comes from Americans for the Arts committed to transforming America's communities through the arts and arts education supporting the nonprofit arts industry which employs $4600000.00 people nationwide learn more at Americans for the Arts dot org It's to the best of our knowledge from p r x. Strain champs Do you ever get the feeling that your digital devices are eavesdropping on you. How can I help you. When you were standing in my office and we were just having one of these conversations so it's really boring but necessary about you think she replaced the water heater in our house. And this is public radio listener Karen has Nasha she lives in St Paul Minnesota. 'd and the conversation went and I asked my husband after work and I just turned around and walked into my computer and was starting my workday and I noticed an ad on the right side of my screen for our own daughter sister. Actually Herman. And I. Agree we have. In our company. Grow I would like. Our devices are listening to us. No problem. Notice it happening quickly. Campaign. And. Bottle in the picture. Would it. Not brand. Her faith. In American girl. To her daughter. You know. We've always known that we were under surveillance having all of these devices. To have come from something I'm just saying out loud inside my own I guess it's a little disconcerting. You're welcome. So this is the world we live in now a world in which we're being watched and listened to constantly. By sinister Russian spies but by our very own computers and t.v. . Just the tip of the iceberg Randolph Lewis is the author of under surveillance being watched in modern America. The great infrastructure of the 21st century I think it's surveillance it's how corporations find out intimate details about us that the use for marking purposes how governments determine whether we're a risk or a good citizen or a threat to the nation and so forth they call it ubiquitous surveillance I mean it's just everywhere all the time in the background kind of like autonomous Li running these days and growing all the time I mean new kinds of surveillance technology are constantly being developed what are some of the most surprising examples that you've discovered. That was one of the reasons I wrote the book is because it felt like every day I was struck in the face by some news story about the latest surveillance technology I think in the last week the digital pills this kind of biomedical Big Brother apparatus was approved way what is that it's a pill the doctor gives you unlike most pills which you can either take or not take at your discretion this one has a way to send a signal back through Bluetooth I guess to your phone but then ultimately here doctor and maybe your insurance company and it's designed for schizo phrenic said 1st to make sure they're taking their medicine Wow So it is kind of ironic that schizophrenia tends towards paranoia and delusions you think you're being watched right turns out you are right it's the older more shorts quote that even paranoids have real enemies you know so it's maybe it is benign to have a medication that you're taking and their doctors saying Ok good this this has been ingested on schedule and maybe in the case of some individuals it's really helpful to be able to look over their shoulder and make sure that they're taking it but what I wrote this book for really is to think through the implications of things like this I mean this happened after the book came out a couple months ago but I mean what are the implications if all or medication has this kind of digital quality and that the insurance company knows infinitely more about what I'm taking and putting in my body I find as someone who's really but has a kind of like investment in liberty and autonomy and independence I find those things very threatening to not just my psychological well being but kind of the healthy functioning of a democracy Yeah and also just psychologically you're swallowing a bug you're being bugged from inside your own body Yeah I was surprised recently to read that smart speakers like Amazon's echo and Google home those are actually recording our void. Even when we're not talking to them is that true yeah it is a just having dinner last night with a cyber security expert who spent a lot of time trying to find a dumb t.v. You don't want to smart because the smart T.V.'s are picking up all the audio in the house so that they can be controlled through voice commands and for gaming purposes and other benign purposes but this became a little bit of a scandal about 2 years ago when Samsung released a smart t.v. That people were very excited by and put in their home but they didn't realize on page 44 something in the fine print of the instructions that Samsung was recording everything that was within range of the microphone on the t.v. That data was going back to Samsung and then to a named 3rd party probably a marketing company but who knows I think the standard response to some of this is you don't really need to worry about surveillance if you have nothing to hide I mean the surveillance is there to catch people committing crimes so how do you respond to that defense Yeah I hear that a lot when I talk to people I have nothing to hide and I think it really is one of the most naive and disingenuous phrases in the English language right now I mean Mark Zuckerberg puts tape over his webcam on his laptop we all have something to hide the journalist Glenn Greenwald has kind of thrown down the gauntlet he said if you have nothing to hide why don't you send me Glenn Greenwald all of your passwords and all of your information and you know I'll go through all of your e-mails and see what I can see and course you know what he does that we all have things we want to keep private whether they're medical things things in our romantic life privacy is important to people once they start to think about losing it and what it really means so I think I have nothing to hide as often correlated with certain kinds of privilege and I was sitting around a table with some freshman at the intercept axis here in Austin 4 of them were telling me well I don't feel like I have anything to hide I feel like surveillance is not that big a deal the 1st purse. At the table the only person of color an African-American woman said I hate it every time I go into a store I feel like I'm being followed I'm being tracked so there was a kind of biographical element to surveillance consciousness and whether you feel disconcerted by this feeling in this reality often of someone looking over your shoulder. There has been of course a lot of discussion and still will be about the the moral and legal issues around surveillance culture but you are more interested in what you call those soft tissue damage that surveillance inflicts on us what do you mean by that yeah it's a phrase that I use to try to describe something that goes beyond the kind of normal conversation we have with surveillance which is about law and policy technology and those sorts of things that law school professors might write about very well for me I was interested in more of the kind of ethical the emotional qualities the aesthetic qualities one of the chapters in the book is about churches who are wiring up for maximum surveillance to prevent crime within sanctuaries and they may be perfectly reasonable from a perspective that some of these churches have but if you look at a c.c.t.v. Camera above an altar and it looks strange yeah I went to Catholic school and they look strange to me like which one is the real authority in the room symbolically Oh I hadn't even thought of that I was thinking more along the lines of church is a place people are supposed to go to be with their most private selves I mean think of the confessional for instance there's a reason it's private and secret and nobody's supposed to be able to see you so to install security cameras all over a church just seems like an oxymoron it does to me too but not everyone feels that way and there's a big business and what I call sacred security and it was for tracking that how people experience that varies. Infinitely But you know the soft tissue damage that I'm writing about is trying to figure out the really subtle impacts of surveillance culture when we have a car accident you know it's like the broken bones are really obvious but the soft tissue damage keeps going on and on it's really nuanced and lingers and so I was trying to figure out what that might be over time living in a culture of unprecedented and increasingly invasive monitoring I think if there's a key word in this book and it's one that as a cultural historian and writer culture I'm really reluctant to use which is unprecedented but I do think that elements have come together technologically and politically and culturally to create a truly unprecedented situation in which surveillance is really at the heart of so much of what's going on today what are some examples of that soft tissue damage you're concerned about I guess you could answer it personally I have a chapter in the book which is about memoir and surveillance about why some people develop certain kinds of sensitivities and anxieties around it there's no coincidence that we're living in an age of profound anxiety in record numbers of prescriptions for anxiety in a real spike in social anxiety disorders it's unpleasant to feel watched for many people and some people have the wonderful ability to just be Blood say and turn it out and I write about some people like that but many others feel the burden of it just weighing down on them and so they walk into a room and they see the c.c.t.v. Camera and rather than feeling protected and comforted by the subpoena security apparatus they feel weighed down by the feeling that perhaps something bad happened in this space and they had to put the camera in because something awful once transpired here there's so many little ways in which surveillance can cut us throughout the day and it plays out differently for people differ races and genders Well I go through the t.s.a. And I dislike it I feel like it's security theater and it doesn't really bother. Tremendously on a kind of bodily level but there are a lot of women write about some of them in the book who feel like there's a kind of ogling going on and some t.s.a. Screeners have gotten into trouble for applying for like code words to attractive females coming into the scanning devices while I have to say as as a woman when the t.s.a. The full body scanners 1st came in it felt very invasive and weird to me and I thought Can you see my body under my clothes and how much can you see and then the t.s.a. Would come out and say no no we really can't see that much. And now because you can't say no so I guess I just try to think about it and that is the solution for a lot of people and I understand there were overwhelmed by so many other issues but you know just on the issue of gender and surveillance I mean just in recent weeks when you look at Louis c.k. And Matt Lauer and Roy Moore and the kind of culture of patriarchy and privilege and abuse that is inherent in what's been going on there you think would you trust these people with the keys to an incredibly powerful monitoring system does our culture respect women in a way that. Makes us feel like these kinds of systems would not be abused and sexist ways there's been lawsuits against casinos for the employees using c.c.t.v. For women police have been in trouble for the same thing the n.s.a. Even has a word called love and it's the love Intel it's the abuse of their systems to look up ex lovers and it can track people down oh wow there's another creepy word called perv valence prevail and which is the use of all these cameras and monitoring devices for being in sexual gratification and voyeurism How much does that go on do you think more than we realize I hate to say it but you know a lot of people working behind the desks in these security jobs are young men in their board and they set there all day and they do unfortunately what a lot of young men do which is kind of object. If I women and they've got a machine that allows them to do it there's been research that shows this was back in the 1990 s. In Europe a researcher showed that the surveillance cameras that were put into I think it was in a shopping mall were being used more for sexual gratification ogling than they were for security. And so if you could actually look over the shoulder of Big Brother and see what he was looking at You'd probably be pretty disturbed. About It makes you want to go home and turn off everything electronic and pull the shades doesn't it. Randolph Lewis tells more stories about how we're being watched in a book called Under its service. I'll be watching you now that we're all feeling insecure it's probably a good time for a quick lesson in online privacy how to protect yourself and your phone from hackers trolls and scammers and for that Steve Paulson called Lily hey no matter the staff writer who covers security for Wired What are some of the risks that having a smartphone carries. Well it's just like the capability is of Smart home device or smart assistant but sort of even more expanded and has listening capabilities for it you know has a microphone potentially malware or spyware on the device could see everything that you're doing everything that you're typing harvest passwords you know even even when the phone is not on you're saying all this stuff can be activated my smart phones on all the time. Ok so we have I suppose on all the time yeah I mean if you turn the phone off it's more limited there are still some mostly theoretical but kind of amazing incredible things that could be done more with Airplane mode there are some attacks like the microphone being a good example right the microphone doesn't need an internet connection so even if you cut the data connectivity and the wife I connectivity it could still listen to war and then send back data to wherever it's calling home to when you do eventually reconnect when it's totally off there are you know a couple things but yeah totally off is pretty good except that like I said we all keep or smartphone you know who wants to turn off certain defeat you know so that's why I was describing it that way is just I think of it as an always on device and I do have an always on device with me all the time which is my smartphone So assuming we do have a smartphone we do leave it on are there any basic preventive steps we might want to take just to be a little safer. Yeah I think with all our devices because radar our laptops when we're using them are a lot like smartphones they have a front facing camera they have a microphone an Internet connection a lot of the same attributes they are both computing devices there are sort of couple basic ones that I think about one is encrypted messaging you know this is something people are talking about more and more certain messaging services offer what's called End to end encrypted messaging which sort of means that your texts or your messages or your photos or things that you are sending back and forth to people are kind of in a protected tunnel all the way between your devices and the data is only decrypt it so that it is human readable at your end where you sent it and at their end where they received it on their device and all along the digital tunnel that the data moves through between the 2 devices wherever it goes whatever servers that stop sat on the way it's not readable and it's not to cripple so and to end encrypted messaging is a great tool you know now the end to end encrypted messaging services that are available are very easy to use so that I mean that sounds really complicated but you just described the way the messaging services are now set up you don't need to do anything or know about anything you just need to choose to use a service that provides it over a service that doesn't so right the easy one being whatsapp what's app offers and 10 encrypted messaging for I think a 1000000000 users. Which is sort of unbelievable and amazing and you've written about what we can do to protect ourselves from phishing attacks basically scams that are used to get us to reveal personal information can you talk about that. Fishing is really difficult to combat because the whole goal of it the only point of it the only thing that's happening is that someone is trying to trick you so if you get tricked it's really understandable because one or many people spent a lot of time trying to do that so you give me give me a couple examples of how this works so one classic one would be you want a free cruise Click here to claim it right. You click the thing and it takes you to a page that says Ok enter your name and address and phone number it's a free cruise but you have to pay the tax on the tax cost 100 dollars So enter your credit card and then you get this free cruise for $100.00 and you're like heck yeah and then suddenly your credit card it's been stolen you know that's like the most basic example but that's not even a very good fish particularly anymore for a lot of reasons right you are very skeptical that someone would give you a free cruise if it's free why do I have to pay something all that stuff so that's not a great fish better fish would be a really good looking very official looking e-mail that says your credit card on your list account has expired Click here to go to your account and we'll smooth out a fix that will deal with it but it looks just like the e-mails you get from that service you know could be anything goes e-mails that I'm not sure I mean they say they're from my work you know I'm part of a great institution diverse it was constant I sometimes can't tell whether they're really from my work you might get an e-mail from your boss's boss that says hey I want to talk to you Can you put into this form what they would work for you you know in a Google calendar or something in that situation you might be click. The link which initiate such a malware download sometimes they're trying to harvest your information and get you to voluntarily get tricked into entering your username and password and sometimes they're trying to get you to click a link to take you to a malicious site that initiates a download to try to place your device with malware. So the things to think about with phishing The main one that's resonated for me is just urgency any time a message is urgently telling you to do something really needs you to sign up for a time slot to meet with me or really if you don't act now the crews will be gone right or you only have 10 day is to change your credit card number or your account will be suspended those types of things should really be a red flag to just take a 2nd and say Oh I'm feeling so motivated to do this right now like we're all procrastinators C'mon if you're feeling motivated to do something at that very moment just take a 2nd to think about whether or not it's real you know so in the case of your boss's boss isn't it kind of weird that your boss's boss is like directly e-mailing you you could verify with them you could check and say hey did you send me an email about setting up a time Ok And then if it's true and they did you say Ok cool I'll choose a time slot now but just having that moment to check lift is not going to cancel your account they don't want to lose your Because your customer they're not going to give you 5 days to do it you know you can have as long as you want to fix your credit card they just don't want you to leave so that sense of urgency it's been helpful to me to think of that as a big tip off and then just never click links in emails unless you're completely sure it's a legitimate right that's the classic one just don't click don't download don't download attachments be really conscious and deliberate about doing those types of things and just following your gut a lot of times when people accidentally fall into the trap and get fish. They're sort of kicking themselves because they're like I knew it was weird for that person to have e-mailed me or and I knew I had just fixed my credit card in that account the other day or I just fixed my mailing address or something so I knew it was a little strange and it's really hard like I said I have a lot of sort of infinite sympathy about this and for myself I'm always worried I'm going to get fish because there's no goal other than tricking you all the resources are going into trying to trick you so if it happens it's understandable but those are the things that you can do to try to be conscious and aware you know this strikes me as kind of a never ending battle and the odds are it seems like they're always going to be stacked against us because there is going to be ever more sophisticated technology out there the people trying to scam us or hack us or surveil us are going to use does it sort of feel like a hopeless cause to you to keep on top of these things I do think that digital surveillance is extremely powerful and there are some things that you don't know until later that you would have wanted to protect and that's definitely the hardest part is that it's not until you're in a really messy divorce or something right that you realize that you know maybe you should've kept something a little bit quieter than you did but I do feel heartened that once you're aware of the stuff as a concern for the most sensitive things for your sort of darkest secrets you can make decisions that can protect those things for example if there's something that you just really wouldn't want anyone to know it might not even be bad it might just be personal just don't type it anywhere you know you could still talk to people about it. Or if you do think carefully about where you put it I also think a lot about data that is stored locally on our devices meaning only saved in the hard drive or the flash storage or the memory of that device versus data that is stored in the cloud I think the cloud is very secure or can be very secure you know there's not anything inherently wrong with the cloud but another thing to consider is just that concept of local versus cloud Let's say you have a spreadsheet of just all the people you hate most and everything they've ever done wrong you personally I wouldn't store that spreadsheet in the cloud. I would store it locally on a device that only I own and if you want to go really hard on it you could store it on a device that never connects to the Internet. Lily Hey Newman writes about digital security for Wired dot com. Steve also talked with him. Too in a world where everyone is being watched what's it like to be a watcher coming up the bizarre story of the Colorado motel owner who spent more than 20 years spying on his guests while they fought slept and have sex yes this obsession with him he's trying to find a way to justify no smart but at the end of the day he's really you know the addict we're about to spoil motels for you to finance train champs it's to the best of our knowledge from Wisconsin Public Radio. And p r x. . Hi Scott Simon here host of Weekend Edition Saturday what changed in the world while you were sleeping what happened down the street across the country 3 oceans away since the last time you ate breakfast and a whole be the ones to tell you the most important stories from all of those places how about some familiar voices and those you don't normally hear people you know and strangers who are living those still your world been out of change much since yesterday but are changes every minute and will be there every day to keep you on top of it so become a sustaining member of your station today your contribution to help support the cost of gathering news here at home and around the world call or go online right now thank you $10.00 a month pledge will also support k.c.l. Use coverage of the California coast make your contribution at k.c.l. You dot au argy or call No 805-493-9208 couple of years ago journalist Gay Talese published an extremely creepy book called The voyeurs motel it's a true story of a motel owner who spent more than 20 years spying on his casts while he had sacks the guy's name is Gerald Foose he owned the Manor House motel and Aurora Colorado and both he and to lease at the subjects of a new Netflix documentary called lawyer Doug Gordon sat down with the directors Miles Kane and Josh Corey and I should warn you that some listeners may find parts of this conversation disturbing. For. Describe for us what the motel looks like and well if they just had a high pitched roof. Where I could walk down to Bill's and I figured that's where I would build my observation platform right so they could hear me. They could see me but I could hear them and see that. Josh let's talk a bit about what he did to be able to spy on his gay. So Gerald bought the Manor House motel in Aurora and retrofitted the attic so that he could use these events that were installed as essentially a spy facility he would crawl around in the attic space sharing down below and see couples having intercourse and disrobing and he would catalog everything he would write in his journals their age what they were doing what acts they participated in in a weird way from the attic space and this is something we try to illustrate a little bit in the film it's almost like flipping channels to a degree he's moving from event to event seeing different experiences and living different experiences from this attic space if you see this motel it's your sort of classic drive up the 1950 s. Era. Motel picture Alfred Hitchcock's Psycho I'm not just trying to be funny it's surprisingly similar It's that classic you know single story drive up motel Yeah so how and when did Gay Talese this legendary very famous acclaimed journalist discover that Gerald Foose was doing this job Foose introduced himself to Gay Talese via letter in 1980 when gay was at the height arguably of his career and the height of sort of controversy around a new book he was writing called the neighbor's wife was a 10 year effort to sort of document the changing sex lives of Americans and he very famously participated in some of those events staying at a swingers commune and and it was it was really like the height of controversy at the time so I think Gerald Foose saw him as his author and he wrote Gay Talese a letter ultimately sort of seducing him with a story I think he must have known would be too good to pass up yeah Antilles actually observed well because he needed to figure journalistic reasons he needed to confirm that this this was actually true so he actually went up onto the observation platform and looked through the Suppose advance to observe a little bit right you know obviously yes as a journalist that's what sort of was the hook line and sinker. It seemed What did both of you think of Gerald food for the 1st time you madam he's a very strange guy is a highly anticipated meeting too I mean of course you hear the word voyeur you hear me in the attic you have all these connotations that come up with just what the collective unconscious of what a voyeur looks like in Norman Bates and all the stuff Josh you were there for the 1st meeting Charles was definitely a little bit different than you might expect I mean he's definitely creepy and comes off as especially when he's talking about the border tales talks about it almost in this light hearted way which is so strange to hear Yeah but in other ways Gerald is just it just looks like not a regular guy but he wasn't as dark and brooding and strange as maybe I don't know what you'd expect a boy or girl who lived in the attic for 20 years to look and act like but you know it's kind of jovial and he was kind of making weird jokes and I was picturing Gollum. And God I'm like yeah yeah those are the real I always describe them actually to people over the years of trying to explain to people what we're making I was. Try to describe Gerald as if Elvis had lived to his eighty's picture that especially when he has hair dyed Yeah yeah that's a good description we have these huge glasses which are a very big part of his look which definitely gives him a larger than life going to a Colonel Sanders vibe to him yeah yeah yeah I know Sanders and Elvis made it in had a baby a love child it would be that's a perfect automotive Hell yeah. I had an individual come into my motel. he looks down that way. And nobody there it was not scuppered that's the one time he kind of lost his cool. One of the things that I find so fascinating about Gerald Foose is that he kept this very detailed document which he calls the voyeurs Journal and he believes that he's doing this really important research this groundbreaking research along the lines of Alfred Kinsey and Masters and Johnson also he describes as motels a laboratory Do you agree with his view of his voyeurism for us it was important just to put that in the film because it was important for the viewer to understand how Gerald sees him self Yeah Susan Morrison from The New Yorker so it's very on the film and when Miles and I were editing the film it was important for us to bring this quote up early you know he thought of himself as a researcher. To kill his client I mean to me there's never been a question. That foo's is. Really just or a certain kind of sociopath who. Just need the attention. The reason that was important for us is because we didn't want the viewer to think that we were drinking the Kool-Aid in the way that we saw we know what he did we know that this is a sexual obsession we don't think of him as Masters and Johnson or can say you know this is not great research this is strange obsessive detailed research but at its core from our take is it's all about that sexual experience one time here's watching a couple of them are very attractive. He's looking forward with much anticipation toward a really good show of sex. Well just as they are about to take up the clothes. The guy turned on the lights. And the television set and for years more than disappointed he's angry he's angry they betrayed his anticipation what does he do I went down the ladder got my car he puts on the bright headlights parked it right outside the window. And he goes up stairs now I can see them. But I sees the lights blazing through the drawn curtains just some dumb bastard blood just lights on. There's that great scene with the foods and his current wife Anita towards the end of the film after the voyeurs motel book has come out and foo's is reading a review of the book and he's upset that the reviewer described him as a creep Alyssa's 20 drugged fingers at the voyeur just be a just nothing but a curry well. Larger high. I guess. At one point during his career as a voice. Jerald foods witnessed a murder can you tell me a bit about. The murder is a moment when Gerald Foose arguably sort of crosses the line he doesn't murder anyone directly but he he claims that he's watching a young couple a drug dealer and his girlfriend and he's kind of incensed by seeing these drugs sold and as a result when they leave for an afternoon he lets himself into the room with the knowledge of where the drugs are in and destroys the drugs and on return that the drug dealer accuses the girlfriend and start slapping around. He stood up in the city's face he just reached up and grabbed her by the choker. Brazil and he just quit and she fell to the floor. And you see in the film that there's some serious regret suddenly the fun games are over you suddenly see the real weight of the consequences and it seems as if he this really feels conflicted about that so he doesn't some way it seems self is somewhat responsible but he clearly yes saw in the movie he says you know I could be responsible for that and as viewers were like yeah and or directly responsible there's that one moment in particular where one of you from off camera asked Gerald if you had to do this all over again would you still participate with this book because and then gets upset with you what's wrong about this is they already asked you that question with me not there now and what be here they're trying to get you to answer different which could work or expose you as a hypocrite don't you understand this I understand this is the way journalism where you're this guy's already been credited Germans there cameramen was there a lot of debate between the 2 of you about whether or not to include the St I think we knew right away that it was a pretty gauging scene whenever you're foaming as documentarians or at least I can speak for us whenever were filming. Sometimes things go awry and what's most important as a filmmaker is to kind of just keep your head and not let your emotions take control of the room and then just shoot always record always record we have Gerald who says our subject and we're watching him react as gays object but at the moment the gay blows up. At us I think we're also seeing a have his moment as a subject yeah of our doc and you're suddenly seeing him get emotional and he's sensing a loss of control which is what happened to his subject a few scenes ago I mean it is a little complicated web you talk about layers of voyeurism Miles there's this brief moment in the film in which we see Alfred Hitchcock's Psycho on one of the miniature motel T.V.'s I want to mention rooms and it's the scene of Norman Bates and he's spying on Marion Crane in her room and it got me thinking that your film is like one of those Russian my choice Goodall's in which there's a smaller dog contained within each song in the sense that Gerald foods is watching people Gay Talese is watching food you're watching both of them while you're making the film and then the audience is the final boy or so ultimately everyone is a voyeur the idea of people are outraged everyone sort of states this isn't right voyeurism is wrong privacy should be respected yet all of us in some way obviously Gerald Tooth is a more criminal version some of us more unconscious but we all are natural curiosity about other people's lives I think but you want as a documentarian usually to get as candid and raw moments as possible and the reason why you want that is because it feels for terrorist act yeah and then we'll have an additional level of voyeurism when the d.v.d. With your director's commentary comes out and then you'll get somebody you should get foods in gay to comment on your commentary and we can just you know lines will explode. Miles Kane and Josh Corey are the directors of the new documentary voyeur which is currently streaming on Netflix garden talk to them. Next imagine what it must be like to be the victim of a boy or arena lots doesn't have to imagine because from early childhood her father documented her life obsessive play in photos and home recordings. Further you. Should tell her story after this. Is To the best of our knowledge from Wisconsin Public Radio. N.p.r. X. . Today we're going to talk about trust what you trust who you trust because when you think about it you kind of need to trust your dentist before you get that new cavity fill you know the one for your mechanic before he replaces your transmission or your doctor before he performs open heart surgery that trust had better be there before you show up so would you listen to public radio if you didn't trust us would you turn to us and if you thought we were just sitting around making this stuff up we bet you wouldn't now more than ever it is the time to turn that trust into action support the station and if you've never given before now is the time to trust us to be glad you did support the news you trust every day with your sustaining pledge at k.c.l. You dot org or call 805-493-9200 remember your gift also helps support our coverage of the California coast 805-493-9200 or click and give it k c o u dot org at the beginning of this hour we talked about how much surveillance has crept into all our lives often in ways we're not really aware of and especially through our own personal devices phones computers smart speakers and T.V.'s and the thing is these devices are intimate objects they hold our most personal even secret lives so shouldn't we all be feeling some sense of betrayal or even violation at discovering that they're being used to watch us. Well hold on to that question and think about it again after this next story which fair warning is disturbing Marina let's grew up with a father who was obsessed with watching her he took thousands of photos of her shot hundreds of reels of Super 8 film and she discovered the full extent of his obsession as an adult and made an award winning short documentary about it called the marina experiment this is her story. But when I 1st discovered everything I would have been 37 I had just come back from Los Angeles and I decided to clear out my storage space which had all my parents' stuff and I came across all these boxes boxes full of super 8 film and reel to reel audio tape and loads and loads of photographs and my friend Gene was with me she saw it as a treasure trove. Whereas I was just in disbelief because I had no recollection. Of being filmed so much or being tape recorded I didn't remember that at all. There was a super 8 film of me when I was probably just before puberty my breasts were starting to develop and my father took footage of me with my head cut off it looked like he was focusing on my developing breasts and what I was doing was I had my cat in the shot and I was basically torturing the cat which I imagine was because I was trying to distract my father because I knew he was looking at my breasts but I you know I don't know how aware I was if I was even present in that moment in so many ways it feels like I might have even just have left my own body when stuff like that was going on because I tend to still do that. When faced with something traumatic. Or distressing yet you just feel good. But. There is a series of photographs that he took me potty training. And some people might look at these pictures taken out of context and just say oh those are pictures of a child potty training well worse for you guys if you should go pee pee I am the. Way I am sure. Glad we know. The bag. Because. But for me and the reason I use them in the film was because in that instance and in quite a few others there was repetitive photographing on his part of women's behinds and when I looked at it it was like I could feel him lingering. On me longer than need be that's what the pictures felt like it was the male gaze. That I felt from him when I saw the pictures we were in a. Regular there was actually there was a picture of me when I wasn't even I was probably maybe even 13 or 14 where he made me pose in white cotton underwear in a hallway in our apartment it was the hallway outside my bedroom and I'm obviously extremely uncomfortable and very unhappy and you know it was very inappropriate Why would a father be asking his 14 year old daughter to pose in our underwear so he can take a picture I don't think that's right then over here I want to say something. That they. Don't know about the kind of thing they remember all the time I prefer the. Way Oh. You can't help it you got to talk to her try again. Career talk with a guy. On the audiotapes really was a lot of bullying you know I pledge allegiance. I'm full of bullshit on the table out. Here so what. The hell of it started again and shall. I mean the memories that I had were in are it continue to be visceral so just hearing his voice and also hearing him constantly bowling me into doing things that I didn't want to do and hearing myself. As this tiny little girl sort of thing and not wanting to do things. Like this. In probably 2003 I started really going through the archive again and decided that in order to bring some of the material into my therapy I needed to try to maybe use editing to put together little snippets that I could bring in and show my therapist so that she could understand how the stuff made me feel sick was that it wasn't going to bring us to. Listen to. What did he say I can't keep trying to remain that killed something can I. Say Oh I think. I can a little bit instead of a great. Day or a good look at you will say yes you are so. I hope you will like all the rest of what you say the. Whole I'm sorry and yes this will say. This is disingenuous. This is a look at the Chinese to see your son. Is nicely brought you up. British. Yes sure. I got in really predominantly positive reaction from a lot of people a lot of people that had had a similar experiences which was just appalling to me that were emailing me and continued to email me thanking me for providing evidence for them that this kind of behavior exists and that this kind of thing is wrong I've also gotten not as much but a certain amount of very angry correspondence from men who think I deserve jail time for the slander of my father and who think that I took innocent photographs and put them together in a way to make him look particularly terrible RINGBACK. I refer to everything in the archive as evidence. Because that's what it feels like to me it's not it's not documentation of a happy childhood. There's not one picture of my parents hugging me there's not a film of them hugging me there's no evidence of them ever a holding me or loving me or caring about me the pictures that are taken of me I always am opposed or looking extremely unhappy so I guess it's evidence of a very sad childhood I don't like the word victim and I say that in one of the pieces that I wrote that I prefer to think of myself as an opponent although I don't know what other word to use I guess I feel like a victim. In that I'm const. Really coming up against the same challenges that I can't get past. I mean really all I really want and I think it's what everybody wants in life is to be loved but I don't know how to let that love in because my experience with bad has been so negative that. That it doesn't feel good when somebody actually cares about me it feels terrifying. That's Marina. She's the creator of the short documentary the marina experiment. And that's it for this hour. To the best of our knowledge comes to you from Wisconsin Public Radio today show was produced by the one and only Doug Gordon and this week we're saying goodbye to him Doug is moving on to host and produce a brand new podcast called beta which is all of the things he is provocative post modern and absolutely original. Garden joined the show 18 years ago he's been an integral part of shaping it sensibility so much so that it's hard to imagine producing it without him but I remember when Stephen Colbert left the Daily Show and at 1st it seemed like such a loss and then we all discovered that what Stephen called Bear had always needed was his own show that's what this is like we're not so much saying goodbye to dad as we are unleashing him Sonic and comic genius will ensue for a taste of what's ahead check out the beta pilot the links on our website and as always from all of us thanks for being here with us this week and until next time. You watch. From the polluted studios of California Lutheran University it's listener supported k c l u with global national and Tri counties news any time at k.c.l. 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