Nation has plummeted by more than 40 percent can they be saved wildlife writer Sara Evans chronicles the efforts of African conservationists working to protect lions it's a huge challenge especially as hunting poaching and the pressures from the global market rise up next on point saving the king of beasts the for the last lion roars 1st in the us. Live from n.p.r. News in Washington I'm Lakshmi saying a federal court is ruling that North Carolina needs new congressional voting maps for this November's election the decision could up in the state's election scheduled for member station to be u.n.c. 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You news a resource for disaster victims on the south coast is going to provide additional support services k.c.l. Use John Palminteri has the story the mother see the disaster recovery center is in a transition from its location on Coast village circle as it fades down the mental wellness center a set of arbor nonprofit will be moving in for a month to month lease option to provide services this will be a short term location to have support services for those who have trauma or other needs following them on a cd or disaster on January the 9th other services that had been offered at the site are still available at ready s.p.c. Dot org That's the county's recovery website The county says the mental health assistance the building will offer will be an important local resource for those who are impacted by the disaster in Manas Ito John Palminteri k c o u news south coast residents are soon going to be able to fly nonstop from Santa Barbara to Las Vegas contour Airlines has announced that beginning in October it will offer a nonstop daily service from Santa Barbara to Las Vegas as well as nonstop flights to Oakland earlier this month sun country began offering nonstop Santa Barbara to Minneapolis flights and Frontier offered new Santa Barbara to Denver service the airport now has nonstop flights to 9 cities they include Dallas Phoenix Seattle San Francisco and Los Angeles the Santa Barbara Airport serves about 3 quarters of a 1000000 passengers each year Yosemite National Park is open for business and there are cabins and campsites available for booking that's the message park officials want to get out to potential visitors it's usually nearly impossible to get a campsite or cabin in Yosemite during the summer without booking well in advance but wildfires earlier this summer that forced the closure of Yosemite Valley for 3 weeks also led to vacancies as those with reservations canceled planned trips Yosemite park spokesman says now all roads into the park are open it's 10 o 6. Support for n.p.r. Comes from n.p.r. Stations other contributors include progressive insurance offering snapshot a device that adjusts insurance rates based on safe driving habits now that's progressive learn more at progressive dot com or 1800 progressive. From w b u r Boston and n.p.r. I'm Magna Charta body and this is on point it's likely that for almost as long as we humans have been walking upright we've been hearing this. There are. For the lion's roar now there's evidence that both humans and an early ancestor to lions both proud the earth some 3000000 years ago so these great animals really evoke something primal in us imagine then what it might sound like if that Lions tour. Were simply no more. Well the African lion population has plummeted roughly $20000.00 left that's it so can they be saved this hour on point the rise and fall of the king of beasts you can join us on air or on line is the lion your favorite animal and are you upset about poaching or hunting or do you see a room for especially hunting in larger conservation plans for lions do you want to see increased conservation efforts well 180-423-8255 that's 80423 talk what is what should be the relationship between human beings and the king of beasts you can also join us by the way anytime and on point Radio dot org or on Twitter and Facebook and on point radio Well joining me now from London is Sarra Evans travel and wildlife journalist and she's also author of When the last lion roars The Rise and Fall of the king of beasts we've got an excerpt of the book at on point Radio dot org sorrow welcome to on point and it's very nice to have you and you know we're going to spend a lot of this hour talking about current conservation efforts because you know knowing that or there are roughly $20000.00 African lions left is you know it's a heart stopping number but I'd actually like to start if it's Ok going way back in time I mean how long have humans or humankind and line kind How long have we shared the Earth while the fossils that we found of creatures that might resemble lions are about 3500000 years old but moving on to that further up moving into the ice age then you would have been at least around 20000 years ago that we are interacting with Ice Age Lions Ok lions and their own interacting with them Ok so so did these early Lions whether it be the so is there of there's a fossil record from the ones 3000000 years ago have yeah. That's an African fossil record where the lion originated in East Africa and that's that's the oldest fossil that we have. Later on we have a few more or fossils one Africa but then most of the fossils of bones are all found in mainly in Europe and Siberia also in North America and Mexico as well and they were the Ice Age lions the cave lions that we. Think of Ai you know imaginations of a time when there was it was nothing else but. Planes and gaseous and that type of thing and so what do we know what these early lines looked like do they look like the lines that we see on the plains of Africa today the very oldest ice age lie in the ancestral lions and the American lions we don't have any visual representation of those but we have their bones and fossils and people have put those together so they can see how big they would have been and they would have been big especially the American Lion that lion was a lot 3 times bigger than the Lions you see in Africa today credibly strong animal so it was a witch to battle with the saber tooth tiger. Thanks kind of big beasts a man mess so it had to be big because most of the 4 of them was pretty large it's south but the ones that we have on the in caves have been paintings by people of the cave lions and they're thought to be are around 18000 years old here well so Ok so you write about some of these representations in French caves of a cave wasn't a particularly what we what you saw at the shore of a cave can you tell us who else you have all seen out Desh in southwest France that cave it was not discovered until 2 that long ago when some people were exploring caves saw some academic now just a whole another as they investigate they found a way through into the cave and then literally cannot believe their eyes because it being completely protected from the environment there were 2 pictures of mammoths Lions bison horse and swallows that there were bones all over the floor all huge like bones that my bones things that I knew were not from animals of our time here and so we once I kind of alerted the authorities that people who are experts in dating this kind of thing and preserving it put a special kind of screen around. No one could enter. Previously a similar kind of cave found has been discovered in another place in France and because they allowed to visit is a in people's breasts actually just to cater with the all the artwork on the on the cave wall just let us go right yeah yeah I'm so they didn't want that to happen again so that actually bit what I saw was. It's a cheap ticket of the original Caleb in the same area. And very carefully recreated to resemble everything from from that time well I didn't hurt listeners to go to on point Radio dot org there because we have an image of one of these cave paintings from a show of a that sorrow's talking about again it this is a cave painting that some something like 36000 years old and specifically you write about a part of the cave painting that's called the Pennell of Lyon and I was looking at it today and it's a stunning represent heat is it it's beautiful there's a there's a door it's basically a drawing of a pack of lions in the hunt Yes looks like they're chasing bison probably And just the way that it's been drawn and you think how you know all those tens of thousands of years ago that was created we can look at it today and still have a connection with that we can recognise it as a lie and we can say that the Lions hunting and we can feel their determination to get some prey that possibly their hunger and it's quite a thing to be a root to have that connection with an artist who lived so long ago in such very different times to ours I mean when you think about it what's remarkable about is they're describing the behavior of lions 36000 years ago right which means that these ancient humans were able to they were they had such close proximity to the animals that they were able to witness their behavior in this kind of detail so there it would be just like it just made me think that the interaction between human and why in. Goes back a long time. Many decades and thousands he he's a guy that we've been I think it's changed to say in one speech to the lines you can sense some respect that they paint has had for them and all in that is based on something that we still sharing today Yeah well we are talking about lions and you know in modern in the modern day context the African lion its numbers in the wild are down to something like 20000 that's a more than 40 percent drop in a couple of decades and I'm speaking with Sar Evans she's author of When the last lion roars The Rise and Fall of the king of beasts and if you've got a question about the current a predicament of lions and what's being done across Africa to help save them call us at 180423855 that's 80423 talk and actually star if I may We've got a call coming in right now Alexander is calling from Gloucester Massachusetts you're on the air Alex then there. You know and I want to just ask a question because. In my part a lot of extinctions that happened within the history of humans happened because of humans and then you have early history of millions of years where. We're just natural die out does your guest you know but we might have caused the you know a guy out of the cave Why him that's a good question now then or next there was something that I too was wondering about because there's so many species that we can think about everything you know the the great ark. The dodo things like that I mean those are just a couple of birds but the very soon after human contact was made those species vanished I mean is that sort of evidence is that true also for a cave Lions 36000 years ago. With the cave lines it's thought that the most likely cause of their demise is actually a changing climate so it's the climate basically starting warming up and as he started warming up. Plants which are growing much more strongly and forest started to form and these cave lions were best hunting in the grassy plains which suddenly then became filled up with trees and they were just weren't able to hunt and to get my prey like they had been there has been some suggestion and there is some evidence that cave people were killing lions on eating them but not on a big scale so it's likely that we may have contributed to their demise but we're not the cause as we can say we don't you don't say for example right but then you know marching forward in time you we're talking about Ice Age depictions of lions. In your book you write about how lions like humans were actually they had at their peak spread around the world right across Africa Asia Europe Asia North America South America to. We think then you go as far as Mexico Ok Ok but of obviously in most of these places they are no longer there so. Do we look to humanity to humankind for the disappearance of lions from all of these places save a couple 100 in Asia and those 20000 in Africa. The evidence suggests that we are the cause home fortunately and the last money down to hunting in all its guises whether it's been. Trophy hunting I want to on a big scale whether it's been a man in India or somebody on safari in the 1800s right back to the Gyptian ferries there has been a lot of hunting going on ions it has escalated in recent times which is accounts for the dramatic decline but it's been a history of kind of violence towards towards lions in the night now. And now we're down to 20000 left in in Africa but before that in the in the decades before the 1990 s. There were. A couple 100000. That is believed to have been. In the 1950 s. Up 250-0000 possibly and then just dropping down into that 100990 s. And that's just Spain obviously just has she millions have develops and change the landscape and technology foaming population growth will impact on line numbers well we'll talk more about that when we come back we're speaking with Sora Evans she's a travel and wildlife journalist she's author of When the last lion roars The Rise and Fall of the king of beasts we've got an excerpt of it at our website on point Radio dot org And I'm wondering what you think I mean if there are only 20000 wild African lions left what happens if they're gone what happens if humans make them extinct what do we lose as a planet as as is as humans interacting with nature if the last lion does roar we're at 180-423-8255 that's 843 talk I magnify party this is on point. Literally agencies are in the business of regulation it's been that way for decades environmental activities economic activities the war on drugs federal law enforcement financial transactions and many many others. 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This is on point a magnet trucker buddy we're speaking with Evans she's a travel and wildlife journalist and author of When the last lion roars The Rise and Fall of the king of beasts and that fall may be closer than we think because there are only some 20000 wild lions surviving in Africa today and just a couple of 100 in Asia I want to play a little bit of tape here this is conservationist Kevin Richardson known to many as the lion Whisperer he said in a 2013 documentary that the way things are going lions may not last 3 more decades in the wild carry along the same Paul. Lines in 20 years. Last line was will probably be talking about the last long spins. We don't need to ever humans coming in and telling the animals how to do what they know how to do you know actually. Giving back habitats and restoring habitat. It could be utopia but giving back habitat and restoring habitat involves people and people who are living in those habitats right now and that's one of the complicated things about the question of how do we conserve and save lions and we're going to dive into that a little bit more a little later this hour but but Sara Evans can you just explore with us a little bit more about what are the the most. The most intense current pressures on on Lions is it trophy hunting or is it the sort of the habitat reduction that we just heard Kevin Richardson talk about. People tend to think that trophy hunting is a major cause of of line decline but actually if you look at all to threats that there are 2 lions it's not one of the major ones it can be in certain areas it can contribute to line decline but as a whole the biggest threat to animals there and of course the Lions is there their habitat loss which is being encroached under pressure because of human population growth and the need to farm the land that they have and we know how rapid the habitat loss is for in the places where lions live Maine is different all over Africa but it's something that's increasing all the time I'm in West Africa and Central Africa there and scrapes therapeutically under threat with population growth some which is predicted to rise especially in countries like Nigeria which are Heechee. So it's just being constantly under pressure they think that in the last 25 years or so we had the lion's last 90 percent of its range in Africa so it's lost a lot and it's pretty much now confined to protected areas such as national parks reserves there's not too many just roaming the wilderness as it were but I have also I'm reading you know in your book and elsewhere that there's increased pressure on lions in addition because of this rise in the global market for the Lions parts particularly in Southeast Asia. And that's a relatively new threat to lions which has come about because of the. The decline in the tiger bone trade so when the tiger numbers got so low because it's very popular in China and elsewhere to drink wine made from tiger bones and make medicines from them that people could no longer get hold of tiger bones because it's lead. Poach you know in Trajan in tiger bones that the next best big cat has it why was the lion and is believed to have the kind of same prowess in the associations of. And to give tonic tonic properties and things like that and so as a as a kind of replacement for the tiger bone lie a lion bones have been in tomorrow and I'm not going into mound. Well in Stand by for just a moment so I want to bring in another voice into the conversation Luke Hunter he is chief conservation officer for Penn Farah the global Wildcat conservation organization He's also author of many a wildlife books including Wildcats of the world he's joining us today from Bern Switzerland because he's there working with the International Union of Conservation of Nature to develop protocols for Lion conservation so Lou contre welcome to on point I know it's good to be with you so tell us a little bit more about this habitat loss that sorry Evans was walking us through I mean how how rapid is the loss for of habitat for lions and can that be reversed. Yeah that's a really key question because it has been rapid especially in the last 3 decades or so and we know that that's one of the main drivers of line declines and so that's why line numbers have have collapsed in many areas across Africa but associated with that and I think this is a really important important point for your listeners to understand is that there are vast wilderness areas in Africa most of them under some sort of statutory protection from the great national parks and gamers of Africa which are also under a lot of pressure where the habitat itself hasn't been lost but there is a significant amount of pressure on on the wildlife within those protected areas and so that's that's because people are poor and need profiting from these areas and they're hunting in there or more disturbingly And in fact more prevailing Minniti these days as a commercial element to that pressure that the bush meat as it's called the hunting of wild lion prey actually has a commercial value now and it's being consumed at much faster rates in more recent is in urban markets in Africa or an even beyond internationally and so the habitat destruction itself while it continues and there is pressure in many parts of Africa I think I think we've passed through the worst bottleneck of those things and so and so there's some hope there but where we're Additionally confronting this issue that even in the great protected areas of Africa where the habitat remains and the lion populations remain and their prey remains but they're under very very very intense pressure from the so legal hunting areas so so Luke under the let me ask you I mean the trophy hunting is one thing but that's almost exclusively wealthy white people coming to Africa to kill the most charismatic animals on the planet but these other pressures that you're talking about I mean those are pressures if they're if there's a market for bush meat as you're talking about cetera aren't those pressures borne of things like poverty that the Africans living with these animals may not have any other choice or the many farmers who actually see these who see the lions as a threat because you know they take the livestock they they they invade the farms that the for the those families are trying very hard to subsist on. That's right man yes you're correct on that is so there's a number of issues going on here you know one is in some cases you're absolutely right about people hunting wild wild animals in Africa is it's because they need protein but but and there I think the answer is you know we really need to find ways to alleviate people's poverty you need to give them alternative ways that they don't need to rely on wild animals to to vote for you know for dinner for for their food the issue of the issue of of farmers All right Rob us particularly livestock in Africa killing lines is somewhat different in that that mostly happens outside of protected air is and there are still a number of areas where lines do exist outside of protection severs right many many many cases that still in or exclusively national parks and and gamers' as but there are areas not protected areas that are really important for lions and wildlife but they are human communities they are people who live there and mostly live a subsistence existence on livestock and in that case you know the lines can present a very real hardship to rural African people because they can be dangerous they can kill livestock and they certainly will at faster rates when the wild prey has been denuded I mean something that case though so I decided I was going to say in that case that you know it's very understandable if people are killing lines because they're frightened justifiably in some cases of of of the danger that those lines might present to their large storm I was just saying that I'm seeing here that there that little boy local conservation groups in Africa are coming up with some creative ways to assist both farmers and lions I was reading about that the desert lion of Namibia and how there's a there's a conservation group there that's started to wrap cloth a form of sackcloth around the stockades where farmers keep their animals so that the Lions view the structure as solid and may not actually try to break through them to get to the animals on the other side so it seems as if there are means by which. Local organizations can work with farmers to both protect their livestock and the lions as well exactly right and I think that's absolutely the solution and also a reason for great hope there are there are certain many fantastic individuals and organizations working exactly on solutions like that and it's actually not rocket science you know it's hands out that there's a there's a small toolbox of solutions that includes the top will in all the sectors that you said lines just apparently seem to view that as a barrier and so if you're if you're if you're doing a very good job of taking care of your livestock and you bring them into corrals apartheid and many communities do and some communities don't but if you do that and then you have these additional safeguards in place so for example the barriers you build really strong bombers and that's something that many of us many of my myself and conservation practitioners that I work with work with local communities to help but you you you reinforce those not corrals so that when lines do come sniffing around as they invariably will if as if as livestock available they have a really tough time of getting into those crowds and not and causing great damage so I really think there are you know there are very many of these solutions that local communities can embrace with a little bit of help a little bit of access to the resources or maybe the training and really it's a win win as you say for both the people and the Vines Well let's take a quick call here where at 180423855 that's 80423 talk you're hearing Luke under there he's the chief conservation officer for Penn Thera the global Wildcat conservation organization and we're also speaking with or Evans he's author of When the last lion roars The Rise and Fall of the king of beasts and just to remind you we're having this conversation because there are barely 20000 wild lions left in Africa today so what's your question on how we save them again what 804-238-2552 go to Eric who's calling from Springfield Ohio you're on the Eric I make no I was just so my question is. I think some people under appreciate how important an apex predator is and an ecosystem and I would like to ask there what what exactly would happen if we were to lose this really powerful predator in this ecosystem you know around the lower trophic levels of energy in this ecosystem Erik thank you for your call sorry you have an answer for him yet free for you lose the lion we will pretty much in the end lose all the wildlife that you might that kind of comes under it that the smaller animals. The ecosystem will be to mass a clear fact because they pray that they eat the lion feed so I'm saying the antelope the herbivores and things. Say they could become numbers who could become unchecked which would just affect the vegetation that would be you know you see progressing so it will it would to have a dramatic effect not just on the for now but the floor as well us so that's. One of the kind of big motivations behind saving the lion or using that as the us the facts as the icon is that if you say the lion he save everything else as well. That makes me wonder I mean how much further can the lion the wild lion population decrease before it's basically genetically extinct because the genetic diversity amongst the remaining Lions is isn't enough. Well I know West Africa where did I and decline is at its most dramatic and its most worrying stone in the south of the country Lions aren't doing too badly really. But in the West you have small populations there's one population that's just of about $400.00 individuals and where you have populations that are even smaller and populations that can't meet each other so they're kind of they're isolated either because. There are no national fenced in national park or protected area or just because if. They shouldn't they are kind of Corey divorced that linking them up on possible then eventually. They won't be able to breed. Healthy offspring and some conservationists cause those very small groups living dead because you know they can't breed themselves out of extinction unfortunately well sorry Luke hang on here for just a 2nd because I am delighted to welcome welcome into the conversation one more person Pollack who is joining us from Nairobi Kenya She's the c.e.o. Of the Kenya based conservation group Wildlife Direct they operate throughout Africa including in the Democratic Republic of Congo Rwanda and Uganda She also writes the Africa wild column for The Guardian Pollack who welcome to on point. Thank you very much happy to be here it's really a delight to have you. So tell me I mean you're doing this conservation work in Africa right now but how dire do you think the Lions future is. Well 2 things I mean lions are an extraordinary species. Because they have actually survived in an environment which has a lot of people in a time in Nairobi National Park is right in the capital city of one of the biggest cities in the world are in Africa and and we have lots of land in that park and that park is surrounded by people so the Lions are incredibly adaptable they also breed very fast because they can have many cubs and 7 or 8 Cubs in a girl and so they are actually quite adaptable and they can rebound if they're given a chance to we want Had the population was right down to 7 individuals and now there are over 45 but the problem is severe because we have going human population we have communities who are quite poor who can't afford many of the devices that I heard being talked about earlier and they also don't make any benefit from the lion so in their opinion lions are rather worthless but on the other hand our communities especially in eastern Africa and some parts other parts of Africa have lived with lions for eon they know how to live with Lion but as we become more and more developed you know people children are going to school instead of learning the ways of the land in the ways of the tribe and so they're losing a lot of their traditional knowledge and I think that is possibly why we're seeing greater intolerance and in Kenya the greatest threat to land is intolerance people are killing lions because they are taking of livestock and life stock is their livelihood and the only means for some people to get enough money to pay for their children to go to school when a lion kills your livestock it's disastrous What do you have an example or I suppose there probably hopefully are multiple examples on how that relationship can be changed for both. The families and the winds benefit. Yeah we have this extraordinary story in Kenya of a young boy his name is Richard to read and he at the. Age of 11 invented a device to keep the lions away from others so similar to what you could mentioned earlier you know the people at the March by community keep their cattle behind wooden and wire mesh stockades at night. This little boy figured out that the lion wouldn't attack if he was walking around at night with a flashlight So he devised a very simple flashing system of light that tricked the land into thinking that he's awake walking around and he's not he's in bed this works really really well and because it was an invention that came from the local community it was just adopted wholeheartedly not just in Kenya but all across Africa so this is I think a really excellent. Example of how innovation can come from the people who are affected themselves it's an innovation that is cheap it's affordable he made it from bits of broken flashlights and. You know a battery from an old car bits of wire he found He's now you know it's something that has really turned things around for a lot of those communities and I just made. Forgive me for jumping in here we just have to take a break here in the next 30 seconds so. Joins us from Nairobi Kenya she c.e.o. Of the conservation group Wildlife Direct We're also joined by Luke Hunter conservation officer with Panthera and Sarah Evans author of When the last lion roars and we're talking about the current perilous state of the African Wildlife 20000 of them left on the continent and what can be done to save them 184325 that's 843 talk of love your questions and your thoughts about what we lose if we lose this the greatest king of beasts. Party this is on point. Programming is made possible by contributing members. 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This is on point on magnetometer Barty we're talking about what could happen when the last lion roars that's the title of Evan's book it's called The last line was The Rise and Fall of the king of beasts we're talking about it because there are only some 20000 wild lions left on the African continent and really hunting is part of the problem poaching is part of the problem but as we've been discussing habitat loss and encroach minute human lion interactions and the complexities around that are really one of the main pressures around the last wild lions in Africa and I wanted to explore that a little bit more so so listen here this is this is tape from than a big baby a broadcasting corporation they reported last year that after losing 12 head of cattle a local farmer in Namibia killed 2 lions calling them aggressive and his nephew and fellow farmer Jason in noko speaking through a translator called on the government for help it was a. Serious problem and would need assistance from the government or some of the cattle that comes in and it would be expected to get into a focus. Can I meet us halfway appreciate So that's part of the story but also let's recall the global outcry that happened a couple years ago after Cecille the lion was killed by a Minnesota dentist who was there in Africa trophy hunting now Minnesota protesters were so outraged they stood outside the office of dentist Walter Palmer the hunter who shot and killed sessile they call for him to face charges in Zimbabwe. I accept that. I. Say so they're calling for extradition of a hunter there but on the other hand Zimbabwe native a good well knew 0 believes that Westerners care more about killing than the everyday suffering of the Zimbabwean people here's what he said to a.b.c. News in 2015 we have these issues that. Do exist already. That we're not even talking about hunger people dying of aids all of a sudden one line dies and the whole world goes up we're joined by Paula. C.e.o. Of the Kenya based conservation group Wildlife Direct she's with us from Nairobi Kenya and also by Luke Hunter who's the chief conservation officer for pens there and Sara Sara Evans as I said before and Paul let me turn to you on this cause I'm very interested to hear what you think about this because. When we talk about conservation efforts for lions and some many of the pressures for conservation come from the West and I'm specifically thinking the white West you've heard this term some people call it a form of green colonialism. I mean it is is there not some validity to that. I look I I don't think it's a very useful conversation to have I think it's obvious that people love lions I mean in America you grow up on documentaries about these extraordinary animals you have Lion King of course you adore lions and sort of people all over the world and in Africa we have our own value system for lions and I think that what you're hearing is a real concern that Africa's value system for our extraordinary wildlife has been discounted and that. You know I can understand that and even I was upset I was disgusted with what happened to settle I think we all will feel concern for an animal that has never voice for himself or wildlife that cannot speak for themselves so of course we will try to demean those animals and sometimes you think well people can take care of. I think it's really important that we build bridges. And look for example I gave the example of Richard Gere at this young boy who is from the local community who was saving lions and I can't tell you how difficult it is to get him support to promote his project so of course people feel that it's not fair we've got all these great ideas we've got a road solution why are you supporting us why is it that it's always outsider to agree to help her because it does feel it does feel wrong it does feel in balance and there's a quite a big backlash across the continent because of that and I think it's something that will be very easy to rectify while Luke unter give us your view on this because I know conservation is vitally important for the planet forever all of us I mean of course including and perhaps most importantly for the Africans who are living with and among these animals but I mean how do you know what are some of the ways that we can go about doing that without it just ringing the bell of hypocrisy like some thinking here in North America we wiped out pretty much you know sorry every postal . Earlier we definitely wiped out the ancient Lions mountain lions and cougars for for 150 years hunters were given free rein to eradicate them wolves etc But now we're turning around and and the West is telling Africa what to do with its animals and its way and how do we avoid the supposed Crissy. Indeed and it is there is a deep pockets of the I mean in North America we still you know we permit the shooting of you know 2000 mount Kanzi you know which I support hunted and so and people don't seem to be aggrieved or understand that issue as much as you know they got excited about about the shooting of sessile so so I think it is hypocritical and also it does I think speak to a real sort of misunderstanding in the real issues facing conservation and African communities in Africa and so if you have a country from the Namibian Fama was something that I've heard so many times over the years and was it absolutely key to resolving that chap had a real issue with lions he was he was the Lions were killing his cows he took the reasonable response of addressing that himself because no one else would assist the government or N.G.O.s or local actors or whoever and so I think you know the only way we succeed here is we actually help with solutions in the global community needs to be that international development agencies the people who can contribute significant funding and in the local actors and the N.G.O.s and I include the international N.G.O.s like Pentair in that as well actually help with say assist with resolving the problems of people like that Namibia and Fama interesting well let's get a call here Rick is calling from is a meanie Wisconsin you're on the Eric. Armor question I'm a North American hunter and I know that we provide hunters in North America provide a significant amount of conservation dollars and I'm I assume that I know people that have hunted in Africa and these are expensive and that those dollars Also our use for conservation So the question is is the negative impact of taking an animal in Africa outstripped by the positive impact of a conservation dollar that can be used or not Rick great question let me turn to to Paula Khumbu because there's a whole sort of there's an economic ecosystem around some of this hunting in Africa right Paula Yeah it's it's an interesting challenge and I'm so glad for that question because it creates a lot of confusion in Kenya we're actually in the middle of a conversation or along those lines as well and this is what the responses from the local communities across the entire country that how can we be how can it be legal for me as a local person to kill this animal for food or a predator because it's affecting my life talk and yet we're going to give a license to somebody else from some other country to come and kill the very same animal it doesn't ring right as you said it sounds a little bit hypocritical and I think our governments need to do much more I'm really sorry to say I think our government yes they are prioritizing development and they become a little bit blinded to the fact that this wildlife that we have that is so unique and special anywhere in the world is going to put Africa in a very special place in 20 or 30 years it would be horrific if we lost our life and our elephant a rhino the draft but with them Africa stands apart from all the other continents and it would make us a lot richer I I really appreciate that there is a there is a difficult it is a difficult situation there are no easy answers but I think all governments have to do much more so Evans I mean I'm seeing some figures here that trophy hunting could generate I don't know 10200000000 for Africa is it is it possible that other forms of tourism could could generate could could make up for the loss of that if trophy hunting were to go down. Well that's difficult to say some people don't guess that but it will that it will be possible and that there can be an alternative to trophy hunting as oh a way of saving their land because for example at the moment around 1.4 square kilometers are taken up by trophy hunting ground which is 22 percent more than the area covered by national parks so you have to look at what you know we did to try to get rid of trophy hunting what will we lose in terms of land because that hunting land might become farming land it won't necessarily remain as habitat alliance so it's just putting lots of measures in impervious and . Changing land I'm from trophy hunting land into protected areas where there is no trophy hunting just taking that question on a place by place basis because some places are sustainable and although we might might not like it for the time being they are they are saving aligns life so you don't want to kind of throw the the baby out with the bathwater as it were and I think how I can know yes and yeah go ahead Paula good I was going to say that So Kenya doesn't have truthy hunting there is nothing there's no bird shooting no trip young whatsoever and the physical land area under conservation has doubled in the last 10 years because private land owners and communities have voluntarily put the land aside into conservation so it's not just eco tourism or high end tourism they're trying all kinds of other ways to generate funds that could be energy production sometimes it it's cultivating you know things like but many They're not making money they're not getting rich they feel that it's the right thing to do to keep the land open and and frankly. The the beef production improves answers look production improves under a landscape that has wildlife as well as livestock so there really really is this recognition that Dunwell wildlife and livestock actually can coexist very not going to want to get one more call in here Harvey is calling from Augusta Maine you're on the air Harvey. The question was asked earlier in the show what would happen what is going to happen after the last lion roars and I believe you have a historic model to tell you exactly what's going to come after the last war how in the old stone there was a population explosion of the prayer most real. They created a major negative change in the environment of the whole park area and you may. Remember Harvey looks like your phone dropping out on us but thank you so much for your call Harvey there pointing out that we have removed apex predators from environments here in the United States and he was pointing to the wolves of Yellowstone but maybe there's a hopeful twist to that because they were reintroduced as well so Luke Hunter gets caught a couple of minutes left here to go and and I want to end the show by exploring sort of what it is you were pointed to this earlier what the global community can do here when when it comes to saving and can conserving lions because a couple of years ago in part in response to the death of sessile the United States put 2 I believe 2 subspecies of lions on the u.s. Endangered list you're there in Bern Switzerland right now working on developing protocols for Lion conservation So what role does the global community have. It has a really really important role Magner And I think that you know the fundamental issue is to test is to massively estimate escalate the commitment of support and I mean a financial support as well as expertise or other resources of might be useful to African range States and particularly to African governments who have made in some cases extraordinary commitments in terms of conservation realestate set aside and so you know Zambia for example has over 30 percent of the country set aside under some sort of conservation and it's over twice what we have in in the United States by way of example but Zambia lacks essentially the financial support to be able to really effectively manage that national parks network and if we're able to commit that support then we don't need more national parks we don't need to create more more parks protected areas or take mall land away from our local communities we can we can we have the potential to recover the lion massively in those parks that already exist but their populations are just so sick significantly depleted and so I think you know the focus needs to be on a massive commitment but the likes of which you know we give annually from the from the affluent democracies for for rural development which is very worthwhile We just need a very small percentage of that to go towards specific conservation activity which would save the lion and the massive network of wilderness that they live in and Paul You mean you were saying a little earlier that of course there's also enormous room for direct investment in efforts going on on the ground in Africa as you were talking to us about. Absolutely I think what we need is. A rethinking actually of what's going to work because we cannot have people who are very poor being negatively affected by wildlife you can have wildlife literally being a cost to people and at the same time we're making money from the same one extra tourism so it's almost like taking money from a poor person and putting it into a rich person Ok so we do need to completely thinking of how this model is going to work. For all these areas Luke said these there are vast conservation areas but there are rounded by local communities who are very poor and if they are going to host this wildlife on their landscape then they should there should be some clever way to individual that if you go to France they're using but the local lottery to raise money to support the protection of the heritage and I think we need similar kind of ideas maybe a global lottery to support the protection of Africa you know spectacular heritage now sorry Evans you know we've been speaking sort of very practically throughout the course of this hour but I want to acknowledge that lions are spectacular animals I mean they are incredibly magnificent there's something about their grace and their power that really I mean it is stir it stirs the so whole so are we at risk as as we are with any species that goes extinct are we at risk of losing something wild in us if the Lions go away if that ions go away I think we will we do something very special in ourselves where lose a connection to nature and wildlife and also having that role as a as a guardian of wildlife to think that we haven't let those animals down. That is something that was kind of her own town children's children if that was allowed to happen look Hunter I mean you love these animals for a long time what do you think. Agree with sorrow a minute just walking in a landscape that that has lines is just an incredible feeling and it's and it's and it's an empty Is there a landscape I think if we lose those large carnivores it would just not be the same Pollock who final thought goes to you what do we lose with enough if the lion has asked we we have ruled in Africa together with Lion and elephants and many other species they are tattooed in our d.n.a. We lose lions and we lose a part of ourselves I mean there's it's no surprise to me that people around the world all love lions and they don't need a reason to they will never see a lion but they still love Lions Yeah so yes what we what we discover is that we failed and I think that is just a terrible terrible lesson and horrible gift to give to our children but hopefully it's one that we won't do Pollock whom boo c.e.o. Of the Kenya based conservation group Wildlife Direct joining us from Nairobi Kenya it has been such a great pleasure to have you thank you so very much Paula thank you and Lou Cannon and Blue Country chief Conservation Officer fourpence there of the global Wildcat conservation organization thank you so much for joining us Luke my pleasure Magna real pleasure and sar Evans author of When the last lion roars the rise and fall the king of beasts or a Thank You can't fight it thank you and we have an exercise book at our Web site on point Radio dot org I'm Magnetar party this is on point. On point is a production of w b u r Boston and n p r. 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Investigation that shows that because of reporting errors in school shootings may be far less frequent than government stats suggest Also next month a fleet of ocean vessels will begin a mission to clean up plastic in the Great Pacific Garbage Patch but will it help there are 18000000000 pounds of plastic entering the world's oceans every single year so what we find on the surface is only 3 percent of what is entering the world's oceans every single year and how shared workspace companies like we work and work by are shaking up the commercial real estate market these stories in Priceless Chinese art is vanishing from museums around the world is Beijing to blame coming up here and now. The news is 1st. Ly from n.p.r. News in Washington I'm Lakshmi saying it appears hurricane Marie is responsible for nearly $3000.00 deaths in Puerto Rico in the 6 months since the storm ravaged the u.s. Territory much higher than the initial official death toll independent researchers who study was commissioned by Governor Rick are the row say Your months ago attribute 2975 deaths to the hurricane last year those most at risk for death where the elderly and the poorest on the island Google is pushing back against President Trump's accusations of political bias in which news gets elevated in search results Trump has tweeted the Google search results favor bad news about him from media outlets he calls left leaning Here's N.P.R.'s Alina sell you the origin of Trump's accusations appears to link back to a story published last week by conservative sites called b g media these suggested that almost all of Google search results for Trump news were from media outlets that the story called Left leaning This includes the New York Times c.n.n. Bloomberg and n.p.r. Trump and tweets today suggested Google has been suppressing conservative voices and good news about him Google denies the accusations the company says searches surface the most relevant answers and that results are never ranked to manipulate political sentiment Trump called the situation very serious and said it will be addressed though it's unclear how Alina so you n.p.r. News Washington Russia holds War Games next month the Kremlin says it will be its largest since the collapse of the Soviet Union the military exercise takes place in central and eastern Russia and Moscow says it will involve nearly 300000 troops where than a 1000 military aircraft in 2 of its naval fleets NATO will be watching the u.s. And its Western allies.