And the enhanced assets are defensive. They're there to defend our interests and to help Saudi defend itself we are not looking for conflict in the Middle East we have plenty of the u.s. Blames Iran for a fiery attack on a major Saudi oil processing plant in mid September had no comment on new Iranian reports that one of its tankers was struck by 2 missiles Michele Kelemen n.p.r. News the State Department President Trump says acting homeland security secretary Kevin McKidd leanin is stepping down in an interview with The Washington Post last week McLean and complained about the tone message public phase and approach of the trumpet ministrations immigration policy Trump tweeted that he will name a new acting d.h.s.s. Secretary next week a Texas federal court ruled today that President Trump's declaration of a national emergency on the southwest border earlier this year was legal that could stop the flow of military funds to build the border wall which has already begun N.P.R.'s John Burnett reports federal judge David Briones of El Paso ruled that the national emergency declaration is invalid because it circumvents Congress's explicit decision not to fund the president's signature border barrier he said that as a result one plaintiff Paso County Texas has suffered an injury to its reputation a lawyer for the plaintiffs in a phone interview indicated they intend to ask the judge to hold border wall construction that's going on now in New Mexico and Arizona using Pentagon money in a separate case the u.s. Supreme Court ruled in July that the administration could continue using Defense Department money to build the wall while litigation is ongoing and there is no reason to believe the high court wouldn't do it in this case to John Burnett n.p.r. News. Next News anchor ship Smith is leaving the network no reason has been given but is reporting often through president Trump's anger N.P.R.'s David Folkenflik has more just myth repeatedly as fact check the president he's called him out on lies and distortions He's called him out for shattering Norm's He's called him out for statements that he's described as racist or sympathetic to anti semites or the like and that is not something that Fox viewers were often comfortable with and that is not something that a number of leading Fox News personalities think of at night Laura Ingram Sean Hannity have wanted on their network these are among some some the most loyal supporters you'll find for the president and the president has repeatedly expected of Fox a kind of uniformity and it's loyalty to him N.P.R.'s David Folkenflik You're listening to n.p.r. News from Washington. And coming up in just a few minutes N.P.R.'s Mary Louise Kelly speaks with Representative Eric Swalwell of California about Congress's closed door deposition from Marie your vine of edge the former ambassador to Ukraine that's coming up in just a few minutes on North State Public Radio in between now and then we hope to encourage you to call in to become a supporter of this radio station I'm Jonathan Koch joining me is a Bailey Yes Happy to be here do Jonathan you know I'm one of the things I used to say when I was able before you became old and disabled I used to give blood and I always knew that I was helping somebody and that it was important when I gave some blood when I feel the same way about being a member of Ennis b.r. It's important it's something that I can do that doesn't cost me that that much time or effort cost me a little bit of money and it's important because this radio outlet is important it's important to your life you're the one that's listening and realizing how is it important it is so as someone in one of those blurbs from All Things Considered said certain things are important and this is one of them at whatever level of importance it is do you call now and make a contribution 802345246802345 to 46 just a minute before we get back into all things considered and hopefully time enough to encourage you to call just as a said I do want to say a quick thank you to grant a wood fired foods and Ramona noodles and bow for powering us today on this last full day of the membership drive they support public radio you can too when you call 802345246 consider a 10 or $20.00 a month sustain. Membership that's still a little bit taken out of your credit card or bank account once a month it's not very much you decide the amount $101520.00 but the most important thing is to call and make sure you speak to Samantha or one of the other phone answers and they can guide you through that process we're going to get back into all things considered here in just a 2nd the number again 802345246 things. This is All Things Considered from n.p.r. News I'm Ari Shapiro and I'm Mary Louise Kelly shortly after 10 o'clock this morning the former u.s. Ambassador to Ukraine arrived on Capitol Hill she was there against State Department wishes to testify before the House committees running the impeachment inquiry into President Trump Maria on of it spent hours answering committee members questions earlier today we spoke with one of those committee members Congressman Eric Swalwell is a California Democrat and a member of the House Intelligence Committee he joins us now from Capitol Hill Congressman welcome thank you for having me back on Glad to have you with us can you give me your topline impression of the testimony that you heard today what I can tell you right now it's ongoing but the ambassador showed up and that's what's most important is that despite lawless orders from the president to not show up this investor showed up and that helps us in our investigation did she explain that in any way that she was ordered to the administration has said it's not planning to cooperate with the impeachment inquiry in any way do you know how it was possible that she was able to testify given she still works for the State Department Well she was subpoenaed and we learned last evening that she was being ordered by the State Department not to show up so we issued a subpoena last evening and she complied with the subpoena but we have had many witnesses who have not complied with subpoenas throughout this term in Congress so the fact that she showed up you know is I think pivotal for us and we have learned a lot because she has showed up and at this point that's all I can say as far as characterizing her testimony we again understanding that there's a lot you can't get into the opening statement of Maria von of it is out I'm looking at a copy of it this is a 10 page statement I'm flipping there as we speak in which she gives what looks like a pretty good road map in terms of what she was willing to say what the ground that she is willing to cover can you in general characterize whether she parted ways with anything from the statement yeah I know you guys appreciate you know you have to and I'm going to wait for. Chairmanship to characterize you know her testimony but you know what we have seen with all of these witnesses is that you have career diplomats people who have dedicated themselves to serving the United States and carrying out our foreign policy and then President Trump and Rudy Giuliani and others are running this shadow shakedown track and you know that is not in the interest of the United States it's in the interest of Donald Trump and that's what we're investigating I'm sorry to press you on this but it is on the entrance of the American people trying to follow along a couple of lines he says in her prepared remarks I was incredulous that the u.s. Government chose to remove an ambassador based as best as I can tell on unfounded and false claims by people with clearly questionable motives understanding that you can't get into specifics of what was said was that the tenor of this testimony did she say anything contradictory to that well again I'll let the chairman characterize it but the president has actually acknowledged he did not like this embassador and there's been no legitimate reason to remove her that I or any of my colleagues have seen but I just want to put one other piece of information into this conversation that I think supported in light of the arrest yesterday of 2 associates of Rudy Giuliani Mr Parness and Mr Ferman it was end of summer of 2018 that they had made their 6 figure contribution to the Trump super pac and the Republican super pac organizations and that's the same time that all of these rumors started to swirl and so you know understanding whether there was a connection between their contribution and then the president the United States now having this unfounded belief about our ambassador here is something that we would want to find out I know that those 2 men who you referenced who were arrested yesterday these 2 Giuliani associates were on the list of witnesses that Congress was hoping to call which prompts me to ask about the additional witnesses lined up as far as you know are they still on for next week I'm referring to a few. Hell who served on the n.s.c. Until this summer and Gordon Tomlin the Us ambassador to the e.u. Who was supposed to testify this week until it was blocked at the last minute who now we hear it's back on for next week when we're still seeking their testimony and we believe that if they want to you know help our investigation you know the Patriots that they will show up and honor the request and not follow lawless orders from the president final question has any of the testimony any of the documents that have come to you and your committee thus far. Given you pause about the central narrative of the whistleblower complaint has any evidence come to light that causes you to question the veracity of that complaint to the credibility of that complaint the urgency of the complaint the more witnesses we hear from the more documents we review puts more arrows and only one direction which is that the president had States used our taxpayer dollars to extort the Ukrainians to only help himself there's been no counter arrow that would suggest anything else is going on here and we're going to run a fair investigation but it's going to be swept you have the president confessing to the crime you have a cover up in progress and we will move judiciously California Democrat Eric Swalwell He's member of the House Intelligence Committee and he joined us having just stepped out from the testimony of Maria font of edge today Congressman thanks so much for your time thank you and for some context on that conversation recorded earlier today we have N.P.R.'s congressional correspondent Susan Davis who was listening in hi Sue What stood out to you from the from Congressman swallow there one thing I think is interesting is we know that Democrats have are almost unanimously on board for this impeachment inquiry but the question of whether they bring forward articles of impeachment still seems to be an open question but not when I'm listening to Democrats like Eric swallow in the end there who seems fairly conclusively in his mind that articles of impeachment are all all but certain it has been announced but that the. House seemed more and more likely as they have over this 2 week break where they've been conducting this investigation certainly move closer in that direction my fear is something out I'm sure the chairman said a couple weeks ago we already have the smoking gun exactly I think that the question that Democrats have now is and by the standards that the speaker has met is does the public support them and do they have it do they have enough case to make to the public a lot of Democrats think they already have the fact that they need to make the case for impeachment including the White House efforts to obstruct the investigation going on on Capitol Hill are Democrats willing to take that step if they don't believe that the public's behind them is one of the questions we're going to be watching and are you getting a read on how Republicans are responding to this testimony they heard from Ambassador Yavanna it's today well and as he's discussed a lot of this is happening behind closed doors we do know a lot of Republican staffer the 3 committees involved are allowed to question witnesses members are allowed to attend although it's been a mixed bag of who shows up and who does not Republicans have really been upset with this process than in They've echoed the White House they've said that you know in past impeachment proceedings the full House has called for a vote to sort of structurally formally make the inquiry happen and in certain cases in the past give the minority rights like powers to issue their own subpoenas I don't think Democrats are likely to give Republicans subpoena power in this investigation but it is certainly give Republicans a talking point to sort of attack the integrity of the investigation and I think in this sort of the war of public opinion make a case to the public that this is kind of game from the start that Republicans haven't been given the kind of input that passed minority parties have been and so this is an area that we want to jump in and ask your take on one thing that Congressman Swalwell told me there when we were talking about the 2 Giuliani associates arrested this week Parnassum Igor for a man he was talking about the campaign contributions for which they've been indicted was talking about the timing and suggesting this was around the same time that the u.s. Ambassador the rumors about the u.s. Ambassador to Ukraine are you know your vantage started do. We know that is is there any evidence these 2 things are going to some way we don't have to discernible evidence that those 2 things are linked one of the congressman that was identified in the indictment or not identified but has been identified as former Congressman Pete Sessions of Texas who was one of the people that called for the Ukrainian ambassador to step down put out a statement saying he took no official action he did take of campaign money but he did not take any official action in the words of the president no quid pro quo All right that is N.P.R.'s Susan Davis listening in and giving us some context there thanks as always to welcome to another story now a fast moving wildfire in Southern California that has destroyed dozens of homes closed freeways and forced roughly 100000 people to flee from its path this fire broke out last night in the foothills north of Los Angeles it's being fueled by strong Santa Ana winds and dry conditions N.P.R.'s Nathan Rott reports that is making for a really difficult fire fight most of California was already on high alert when forecasts were so high across the state this week that utility companies had preemptively cut off power to hundreds of thousands in Northern California and if you are here in the southern part of the state the power was still on for homeowners on settle Ridge Road when Roberta Oh Delgado heard his wife yelling there's a fire back of the house. I turned around I looked out the window there was fire right at the bottom of that tower a power line tower on a now blackened hillside not more than 150 yards from the back of Delgado's house that car came down that hill so fast. Ever It was this overwhelming Delgado called the fire department and raced outside to spray down some of the bushes in trees at the back of his property that deck right there I was on that deck the fire the flames were going over these brushes over me going over our house embers were just coming over our house landing on top of her house. Those embers flying by gusting Santa Ana winds leaped freeways and entire neighborhoods pushing the fire officials now say to grow at nearly $800.00 acres per hour when we left here were in tears think in our house as burning it's a miracle Delgado says wiping floating ash from his eyes that it didn't now tens of thousands of other homeowners are hoping for the same thing with evacuation notices expanding westward the direction the fire is being pushed by strong Santa Ana winds Monica Rodriguez is the Los Angeles city councilwoman who represents this area saying in these mandatory evacuation areas are going to remain in effect and until they're lifted residents will not be allowed back in these areas the National Weather Service says dangerously high winds are forecast to continue in the area until tomorrow evening Nathan Rott n.p.r. News so Mark California. A look at how China has been cracking down on activism even when it comes to principles communism was founded on to protect like equal rights for women and protection for workers that's coming up on all things considered but 1st a couple of minutes we want to interrupt and invite you to become a supporter of North State Public Radio and I'm Jonathan Koch and with me as a Bailey thank you so much Jonathan I'm glad to be here and I'm really glad that we're getting calls from a variety of people mostly from Chico but other places as well we want to thank Bill and pow from right here in Chico they also want to thank show. Aaron from Chico and Lola and Phoebe you from parks. National. 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News this is All Things Considered I'm Mary Louise Kelly and I'm Ari Shapiro as the protests in Hong Kong press on the clashes have grown increasingly violent but there are peaceful gatherings too like this one at a secondary school for boys microfiche that would be freed up the students in a crisp white dress shirts and black face masks to gather at the school's front gates they tape up pink posted notes with pro-democracy messages that is where our co-host also Chang started her recent reporting trip in China Sumi Autonomy's Hong Kong is now the only place in China where real protests are even possible I also sat down with 2 people who understand that all too well they also started out as young activists they were pushing ideals the Chinese Communist Party once embrace only to see that same party crack down on their efforts I want to start the story on June 4th 1989 this is a c.b.s. News poll report from the favorite gentlemen's school a little less if you're a Chinese and other hotels as well as Chinese all. Chinese military troops rolled into Tiananmen Square in Beijing and opened fire on pro-democracy demonstrators after weeks of protests. Not 2 people in China is alive so to course after 10 on them 2 people who would dedicate themselves to activism in the years that followed was definitely a and Vanya and a 57 year old feminist organizer in Beijing I don't think honor and handle a labor organizer Han was a 26 year old railway worker when he wandered into the crowds at Tiananmen that summer of 1909 when we walk into the square I saw the students talking about what is the mockers you know your wars fantastic I really admired him so he decided to join the protests he pitched a tent in the square and within days he was giving speeches himself. And then one night on was suddenly awakened by gunfire and I hear a pop. Ten's. And I walk out. Of sky the dark sky without pinchy color lines of or that people ask me. What the hell we do on would spend the next 22 months in prison after his release he was never allowed back inside mainland China so in Hong Kong he founded a group called China labor bulletin a workers' rights organization and in those 1st years when Han was starting his new life a woman in Beijing was struggling with her own memories of Tiananmen Take a sheet a puppet you got the after what happened I was very depressed for a few days only. Well until I felt like I could hardly do anything and had been a reporter for Chinese state media in 1909 and after that crackdown at Tiananmen her boss wouldn't let her go out and report. A year old top the union door for more than a year I couldn't go out to do interviews I was wondering. What can I do with my life but I didn't see any real options at the time. She felt useless listless a few years crawled by and then in 1905 the United Nations decided to host a women's conference in Beijing then 1st lady Hillary Clinton gave a blockbuster speech let it be that human rights are women's rights and women's rights are human rights once and for. You and your company soon she helped me I think through as a whole person yes that's when your identity sort of fully formed different than yes I can put them together to gays or so then I say all now I'm Monica Trinity sweat and he together like the activists like a watchdog because I was the r. Jordan used and also I think her that Trinity activist watchdog and thinker forms the feminist that Fung is today she runs a 24 hour hotline taking calls from women experiencing domestic or sexual violence is a work that's done mostly in the shop here. I met Fung in one of old Beijing's Hutong alleyways so you hear. That. She rushes me into a small room with these windows all covered up with black people yeah she's there to talk with the door closed. Or somebody's going to miss out and this caution is for good reason in recent years feminist organizers have been harassed. By authorities just planning a seminar now can land you in jail still Funk says she's very proud to call herself a feminist even though in China that word is loaded What does it mean to be a feminist in China today what did this insiders don't. And for many ordinary Chinese people the word feminism is still a derogatory term like a feminist is someone who is aggressive disliked by many a woman who is radical which feels like such a stark departure from 1949 when the People's Republic of China was founded back then the Chinese Communist Party or c.c.p. Promised to elevate gender equality it pushed through laws ensuring women equal pay and the right to divorce but today Fung says So much has changed. Down the those are some of the the c.c.t. Knows from its past to the kind of power the grassroots organizations have to rise up from the bottom so if years the potential that any other grassroots power can one day emerge to subvert the state and to subvert the regime has chosen 1st the Communist Party the c.c.p. Was once a party of revolution it acutely understands the power of the movement whether the movement be about feminism or workers' rights a communist party is supposed to be the party of working class but in reality a. 100 also sees a disconnect between the founding ideals of the Chinese Communists and how they govern today he says now the c.c.p. Actively suppresses the labor movement in China who do you think the Chinese Communist Party most protects the both ironic thing. I want to have wording represent the workers there are near of working class on the other hand in reality workers. Represent and are living in terrible condition not allowed to organize a union not allowed to bargain for themselves in fact the Chinese government has quietly disappeared labor activists who have tried to unionize What is the Communist Party here fear so much about workers organizing what do you think it is I do understand their fear what is the theory the party failed to deliver their promises. A society whether your quality a society or country got beaten by working class what heart of the Chinese Communist Party. Still feels copyist to you today when they look at me What do you mean that there is a still a common list. Group of people believe in cobblers and believe in socialism others who are fighting for it every day in their work you believe you represent in your organization represents the true ideals of the liberation of tanks coming spring. I do believe and I will continue to fight that dream a dream that hunt on Fung a workers' rights activist and funny man a gender equality advocate share it's a dream that the China of tomorrow will be a better China than the country they see today that was our co-host also Chang reporting in Hong Kong and Beijing and our stories from China were produced by Mallory you and Sam Green Grass and edited by Julie Myers you're listening to All Things Considered from n.p.r. News. Stay tuned in a few minutes you'll hear about a new in a new book Ronan Farrow alleges that in b.c. Executives tried to halt his reporting on Harvey Weinstein and reveals the identity of the woman whose complaint got Matt Lauer fired that coming up in a few minutes but this interruption is meant to encourage you to call in and become a supporter a member of North State Public Radio in this the final hour of the last full day of our fall membership drive that phone number we're going to repeat it here a few times dial along as we tell it to you 802345246 speak with Samantha or Ken who are answering phones they can walk you through the process but have an a in mind an amount you'd like to give maybe $10.00 a month and put it on a credit card have a go to work for the radio station I'm Jonathan Koch joining me as a Bailey and I'm very happy to be here Donovan You know we were just listening to some men who have a dream of a future Well you don't have to dream folks you're living the dream so to speak because you're listening to something that obviously is important to you and it brings you some extra meaning in your life some make extra understanding and occasionally with extra entertainment and military to laugh at the world and yourself all those different in-depth kind of feelings aren't a dream they're real but they come to you from this radio outlet so Call now 802345246 make your contribution whatever it might be you're the one who decides that but 10 or 20 bucks a month if you can afford it or just 10 or 20 bucks we'll call now just do it it's not hard it's not a dream it's what you're listening to now and now's a good time to call Canon. 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Ws Dato argy and from the John d. And Catherine team MacArthur Foundation at mac found dot org. This is All Things Considered from n.p.r. News I'm Ari Shapiro and I'm Mary Louise Kelly Congress is finishing up a 2 week recess Yes Hard to believe Congress has actually been in recess given all the activity on Capitol Hill including today when Maria von of edge testified before the House committees running the impeachment inquiry Maria Vonage was the u.s. Ambassador to Ukraine until she was ousted in May and it wasn't clear today until the last minute if she would indeed show up the State Department had told her not to testify but the committee subpoenaed her and she complied so the Yvonne of its testimony is just one of such a delusion of developments that we wanted to hit pause and invite 2 of our best sourced reporters tracking the story to come share their takeaways from a crazy week congressional correspondent Susan Davis joins us from Capitol Hill hi there Sue Hi there and justice correspondent Ryan Lucas is here in the studio welcome to you thank you I want each of you to point me if you would to a moment or a development this week that will stick with you either because it advantaged your understanding of the story or because it was particularly crazy even against the landscape of everything going on Sue I'm going to throw that one to you 1st you know I would say today I think was a pretty revealing day in the sim Pietschmann process because we learned that the State Department at the direction of the White House overnight did in fact try to block former ambassador to Ukraine Maria benefits from coming up here to testify on Capitol Hill today in response Congress issued a subpoena for her early this morning in order to give her a legal end run around that order because legally the White House can't block someone from testifying if they've been issued a subpoena So is it true what are several people really it was it a nail biter to see if she would Sakshi going to turn up it was I mean this was all happening in real time and I think the reason why I think it stands out to me is it speaks to how contentious this inquiry is between the Congress and White House and I think for the public to understand that we really are watching a constitutional presser pressure test happen in real time. Ryan your your moment that you're going to just never ever forget it will haunt you forever from this week I don't know if it will haunt me forever but the thing that really stood out to me and it's more kind of on the crazy front is the arrest of these 2 businessmen with ties to to Rudy Giuliani to businessman love Parno sneaker for women worked with Giuliani to gather information in Ukraine on Joe Biden and other conspiracy theories that we've heard related to the 26000 election and the circumstances of their arrest in particular are almost like out of a movie here's the u.s. Attorney in Manhattan Jeffrey Berman speaking to reporters yesterday about that are innocent grooming were arrested around 6 pm last night and all those airport as they were about to or international flight one way tickets one way tickets one way take part as an informant face campaign finance charges but the really kind of I grab an aspect of the indictment is the allegation that they made donations that got them face time with then u.s. Congressman Pete Sessions partisan from and wanted his help getting the then u.s. Ambassador to Ukraine a name that's familiar Maria von of which removed from her post they were working on this a guy who is with a Ukrainian official according to the indictment and of course we do know that you bought of which was removed I want to just follow up on this development with these 2 arrested because President Trump was very quick to try to distance himself from this aspect of everything this is a taste of him he was speaking last he was speaking yesterday to reporters before boarding the plane for his rally in Minnesota I don't know them I don't know about them I don't know what they do but I don't know maybe they were clients of Bertie that there's 30 I just don't know Ryan if we asked Rudy what does he know I mean how how worried should Rudy Giuliani be about this particular development that's really the question hanging over all of this and it's hard to answer at this point in time but certainly the fact that these 2 individuals have been indicted and do have ties to Giuliani does raise the prospect of perhaps the prosecutors in this. Southern District of New York looking at Giuliani more closely or let me ask you both what strategies you see playing out on Capitol Hill at the White House either end of Pennsylvania Avenue or Sue are you starting to watch a strategy take shape for how the 3 committees conducting this inquiry or are planning to proceed Well it is interesting because I think that one of the debates that the Democrats have had internally is how narrower expansive do they want to keep this impeachment inquiry and over the course of this break while the committee has continued its work I think Adam Schiff the chairman of the committee and House Speaker Nancy Pelosi still maintain that they want to keep this impeachment focus almost uniquely on this question of whether the president sought interference in the election in the Ukrainian connection they might face some resistance to that from Democrats more broadly in the party who might want to expand the scope of this investigation as more and more of these details come into play so I think discipline among Democrats is going to be one of the things are looking for but I'd also say on the other end for Republicans I think one thing this recess has taught us is that don't expect much of daylight between the rank and file on Capitol Hill and between the president Republicans have been out polling in the house in swing seats in competitive districts in the message that they are getting is you better stick with this president even talked a lot of lawmakers aides who said the message they have their lawmakers have heard over the break are not just stick with him but you should be fighting harder for him you mentioned Adam Schiff Chair of the House Intelligence Committee and also been empowered to quarterback this whole thing Ryan looking over to the president and his allies I want to play quickly a piece of tape from the president it's been getting a lot of airtime because it seems to sum up so neatly the strategy that seems to be emerging from the White House the Democrats brazen attempt to overthrow our government will produce a backlash at the ballot box the likes of which they have never ever seen before in the history of this town Ryan what were Does that point us in terms of where the president and. His lawyers are headed Well it really registers with what we saw from the White House counsel on the letter from the White House Counsel's Office this week that simple wanting pats of polonium spelling out quite clearly that the White House views this impeachment inquiry as an abuse of power by Democrats in the House and the White House said we are not going to cooperate full stop legal experts that I've spoken with have said that you know the legal arguments in that letter are pretty weak it's really more of a political document than a legal one in their view. The talking points in that letter we heard from the president on the tape there and as soon said we're likely to hear from the president's Republican allies but we've seen the strategy before from the White House of not cooperating of stonewalling Congress and congressional oversight force lawmakers to go to court drag this out through litigation to try to run out the clock now on the non cooperation front we've already seen cracks in that though because we had for example today Maria Ivana bitch testifying speaking of running out the clock in the minute we have left a quick look ahead from each of you where are things headed next week will it get even stranger as Congress actually comes back to town next week Ryan Well there there's one thing in particular that I am going to be paying attention to and that is 2 witnesses one Fiona Hill a former national security official and top White House adviser on Russia she is scheduled to testify and then there's Gordon Sunderland the u.s. Ambassador to the European Union who was very very tight with the president's efforts to pressure Ukraine Ok Sue I watching for how quickly Democrats want to move they say they want to wrap this up by the end of the year but there's only $28.00 days left in session to figure out if they can do that I think in the next 3 weeks when they're back for this work period will get a sense of how likely that is right it's always been a question where they try to wrap this up this year with a risk tipping into an actual election year in 2020 and that makes a lot of Democrats uncomfortable Yeah that's at N.P.R.'s Susan Davis on Capitol Hill and n.p.r. Justice correspondent why in Lucas thanks to you both You're welcome thank you. You're listening to All Things Considered from n.p.r. News Irish writer Edna O'Brien's new novel tells the story of a girl kidnapped in the night and taken away from everything she knows that conversation coming up on All Things Considered on in p.r. 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News I'm Ari Shapiro and I'm Mary Louise Kelly I was a girl once but not anymore that is the 1st sentence of Edna O'Brien's new novel it goes on blood dried and crusted all over me and my wrapper in shreds my insides a morass as you're already gathering the novel can be hard to read and neither the book nor this interview may be appropriate for everyone but girl as it's titled also tells a story of quiet dignity of hope of love It is a fictional portrait of the girls abducted by Boko Haram in Nigeria 5 years ago it's the story of their kidnapping their suffering how many of them were raped how some were forced to marry and now Brian joins me now from London and welcome to All Things Considered Thank you you went to Nigeria to research this yes I went to more than once yes yes it was related to it but of all of the many things are allowed to write about what why these girls well I've always written about gauche and women both as victims and as fighters. But do you ality they be through hell and somehow they come through so one day I was you know way to doctors and I read her small item in your newspaper and I was waiting which said a go old I mean something something was found in some piece of forest wandered in with her baby with nothing to eat didn't know her name and didn't know where she was and for some reason it's inexplicable to me. I thought. I have to write that story I didn't think of when I 1st read about the girls or when I heard about the hash tag Bring Back Our Girls there was something about the girl alone in a forest that resonated with maybe lived and maybe imagined experience inside me one can't write a novel about an outside subject unless it has some conceiving within the writer's own self and the world is full of stories the world is full of very difficult stories where that was the one that I believed I would be able to write about with both pain and passion and enthusiasm and enthusiasm there's there's a fairy tale quality to it a horrible fairy tale but the girl alone in the forest with nothing to eat absolutely I wanted that I am a great admirer of fairy tales for their magic and for their darkness I love the brothers Grimm I love him script you know Anderson because those stories of everything and. They have the suspense of great stories that also have that thing of the unknown and usually an individual in contrarian either in nature or in human beings something I think. They may never come through. What made you confident you could do it in a way that wouldn't make us your readers Funch and look and look away because what you're describing in an unflinching terms is brutal violence mass rape and horror after horror that is true there's also Humana to I'd like to stress it's not a horror for the sake of horror Greek drama Greek tragedy Greek fiction all my. Hope it's not too conceited to mention the Great told me and others is real it has to be a role in order to be truthful but there is a crucial difference and this I would like to emphasize between what is role and truthful as opposed to what he's lurid. And if you like souped up all manufactured . I want to ask a question about the arc of your work you published your 1st novel The Country Girls nearly 60 years ago to great acclaim Although we should note it was banned for a while in Ireland. As someone who has been telling the story of girls of women for decades now do you think the way they are read has changed are men more likely to dive into these stories than they were when you were starting Well I think when I started writing it was exclusively women who read my books and identified to so make stand with them or of criticized them for being too much about victims they didn't understand I was writing about victims in order to make the joining of the victims emergence to a big tar or to someone a least who comes through these things which are part of human eye with this book the reviewers have mostly been women because I suppose with the title and the material I think there would be a percentage more of women with men. The ready or curious I don't know which to also read my books now days do you think that's I mean you're a big name you're a famous writer do you think that's part of it or do you think this is men have changed society has changed what we want to read I think you know actually I don't feel famous I just feel I wonder can I have a Russian other book. I definitely from my own sons Carlo and Sasha I think men have changed it changed a lot about their of flexion or their demonstrated affection. Towards their children men have fathers you see fathers now as often as in the West as you do a mothers carrying babies are willing you know pushcarts changing tables in the men's room exactly I believe you raise the question as to whether there's another book Is there another book in your. I would like to think their use I have. No guarantee yes or no insurance policy about it but writing has been my whole life it has been a essential to me I think I was breathing if I couldn't write I would be. I'm anxious as a writer and I can't say that I find it easy because I rewrite very extensively and worry when I'm writing which is more or less all the time or some variable or I'm sorry. But if I could not do that if I did not have writing it's like my you know what when it hears my you know well it's my inner chamber Emily Dickinson was always writing about the different chambers of the mind. The chamber of my mind the most of what flow by a cold his Royal Room. I'm all to do with writing and reading then really reading great literature because I think literature is one of the most important things in our life and. We would abuse discredit minimize or throw it away. And no O'Brien talking there about her new novel titled girl and no Brian if I may say I for a much hope it's not your last and it's been a pleasure to speak with you thank you oh thank you very much too was very short. We talked we test thank you thank you and goodbye and. 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