Helped the morale of my fellow prisoners who might be listening throughout his long political career throughout his life he lived with the physical consequences of having been tortured my experience who have made me so appreciative of the opportunities that I've been given and the life that I've been able to lead I enjoy every every day and I look forward to getting out that's on Fresh Air. First news. Live from n.p.r. News in Washington I'm nor rom President Trump announced today the end of NAFTA the North American Free Trade Agreement they used to call it a nap they were going to call it the United States Mexico trade agreement it will get rid of the name NAFTA has a bad connotation because the United States was hurt very badly by NAFTA for many years and now it's a really good deal for both countries he said they're working on a new agreement with Mexico the Mexican president was on speakerphone during the announcement in the Oval Office and Rick a Pena Nieto says he hopes that Canada will eventually join the new agreement a summit on Afghanistan scheduled for next week in Moscow is now off for now the Russian foreign ministry says the multilateral talks are being postponed for more preparation Russia had invited 12 countries and the Taleban to Moscow for peace talks on Tuesday the u.s. Federal government student loan Ombudsman has resigned as N.P.R.'s Corey Turner reports the watchdog quit to protest moves by the Trump administration that he says undermined protections for student borrowers sefer Ottman served for 3 years as the student loan ombudsman at the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau or c f p b the job was created by Congress back in 2010 in the wake of the financial crisis since then the c.f.p. B. Has handled more than $60000.00 student loan complaints and returned more than $750000000.00 to aggrieved borrowers including military service members in his resignation letter frogman writes under your leadership the bureau has abandoned the very consumers it is tasked by Congress with protecting Instead you have used the bureau to serve the wishes of the most powerful financial companies in America Cory Turner n.p.r. News Washington Senator John McCain will lie in state in the u.s. Capitol building later this week one of several services and other. Says planned in the next several days as N.P.R.'s Tamara Keith reports one of McCain's Senate colleagues is pushing to rename a Senate office building in his honor Senate minority leader Chuck Schumer says he's gotten positive responses from both sides of the aisle to his proposal to rename the Russell Senate Office Building after McCain I'd like when little children visit the Senate and they say who is John McCain because the building was named after him and have their parents and grandparents explain it to the man whose name Schumer hopes to replace Richard Russell was a long serving Democratic lawmaker from Georgia known as a senator senator but Russell used his mastery of Senate procedure to try to block the 1964 Civil Rights Act and opposed legislation to end lynching and segregation Tamara Keith n.p.r. News stock prices continue to rise the Dow is up $258.00 points the s. And p. $500.00 is up $22.00 this is n.p.r. Illinois governor Bruce Rahner vetoed legislation that would have raised teacher pay with salaries to start at $40000.00 the Republican said there are more efficient and effective ways to compensate teachers. Police in Jacksonville Florida are trying to find out why a gunman killed 2 people and entered 9 others at a video came toward him yesterday 2 more people were injured in the scramble to flee N.P.R.'s Bobbie Allen reports Ryan Allman is a roofer from Texas who makes side money as a gamer he was at the Jacksonville tournament of Madden a popular n.f.l. Video game when he heard popping sounds behind him and says he stopped playing the game took off his headphones and he and his opponent crawled to the bathroom and stood on the toilet together so the shooter wouldn't see their feet if he came in but the gunman never did when the gunshots stops Allman thoughts we got to run but if he comes back with another clip or he's going to be coming here so let's just take our chances because everybody was running everybody with some we now. Have 3 bodies on the floor like unconscious Police say the shooter who was also a gamer took his own life Bobby Allen n.p.r. News Facebook says its advantages several top military leaders in me and more to prevent the spread of hate and misinformation a report released today by investigators for the United Nations top human rights body accuses the social media giant of allowing itself to be used by the country's military to inflame ethnic and religious conflict especially against minority running the Muslims I'm nor rom n.p.r. News in Washington support for n.p.r. Comes from n.p.r. Stations other contributors include the Joyce Foundation committed to advancing racial equity and economic mobility for the next generation in the Great Lakes region learn more at Joyce f.d.m. Dot org And the any case the foundation. Support for North State Public Radio comes from Magnolia gift and garden a full service nursery in Chico offering guidance and Flora best suited to the Northern California climate as well as pottery for Home and Garden open daily at 1367 East Avenue in Chico and online at Magnolia gardening dot com It's 9 o 6 let's get back to Fresh Air This is Fresh Air I'm Terry Gross today we join people throughout America on both sides of the political aisle and remembering Senator John McCain His memorial service will be held at the National Cathedral next Saturday one week after his death from brain cancer at the age of 81 we're going to listen to an interview I recorded with him in 2000 after his best selling memoir Faith of Our Fathers was published in paperback but we'll start with the interview I recorded with him in 2005 after the publication of his book Character is Destiny This was 5 years after he'd lost the Republican presidential primary to George w. Bush when we spoke he was considering running for president in 2008 he did run but lost to Barack Obama McCain requested that those 2 former opponents speak at his funeral we talked about many things in these interviews including his 5 and a half years as a prisoner of war in Vietnam and his years as a Republican senator from Arizona this 2005 interview begins with a story that involves his mother who has survived him and is now 106. Senator McCain welcome to Fresh Air and your book Character is Destiny you talk a little bit about your own life and you tell a great story about your mother's objections to the language you once used to describe your experiences as a prisoner of war would you tell us that story so my mother is now 93 I think she was 90 at the time that. An excerpt from the 1st book that Mark Salter and I wrote called Faith of My Fathers was excerpt in a magazine in Washington and one of the excerpts that was printed in the magazine was that I was when I was in prison in Hanoi when being taken from one cell to another I would yell obscenity as at the guards to try to help the morale of my fellow prisoners who might be listening we're not allowed to communicate with each other and so some of those obscenities were printed in the sec served and in the book and. My mother called and so I handed the phone she said Johnny I said Yes mother she said I just read the excerpts from your book in the magazine I said What do you think and she said well I'm coming over there and wash your mouth out was so I said. These were bad people they were hurting me and my friends are very bad because she said that's no excuse under no circumstances that I ever teach you to use language like that. So what's the moral of that story in your mind moralist ory is you should always pay attention to your mother. Certainly never write something that she might do. That that you that you might want her to you know obviously she was wrong because there is a place for obscenity and that would be the place for it is when your exam people are carrying you away to torture you that would apply for a senator. But you know way mom is again she grew up in an age where ladies and gentlemen never use that kind of language. As she said under any. Circumstances but she's a wonderful woman she drives herself everywhere she drove herself cross-country last Christmas and I had to alert the local law enforcement age that. She's an she's in great great shape and she pays very close attention to my activities watches my appearances on television and radio and in Washington quite often I take her to various functions that I go to and she's always the head of the evening what your book is called Character is Destiny and of course one of the things that formed your character was being a prisoner of war for 5 and a half years in Vietnam and you have introduced an amendment to the defense appropriation bill this would prohibit cruel inhumane and degrading treatment in the u.s. Interrogations that happened outside of the u.s. Would you explain what you see as the need for this bill but 1st I mentioned about my character being formed by being in prison I don't I don't think my character was formed in prison I think it was formed before that but what I think it made me realize very frankly in prison that I was dependent on others it was my friends and comrades had picked me up when I was down and literally saved my life and. I always thought that I would be able to do everything for myself and I found that I was very much dependent upon my comrades who were my source of strength and in a couple of cases a couple guys who took care of me when I was 1st. Prisoner and they were literally saved my life. We have we have very bad image problem in the world some of it deserved some of it undeserved that we are mistreating torturing treating inhumanely or cruelly people that we hold captive and Abu Ghraib pictures of were shown on Al-Jazeera as we all know 247 and it hurt us in our efforts in Iraq and it hurts us around the world any information that can be gained by torture. Is one not reliable to torture is not effective and 3 if I could sum up there's a great hero of mine his name is General Jack Vessey a lot of Americans may not remember Amy was chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff got a battlefield commission he was a private landing at Salerno in the Italy and fought in many wars he served in the army for 46 years and I saw him recently out in Minnesota. At a dinner that benefited Iraqi veterans and their families and he I said General what do you think about this issue and he said any information that could be gained as a result of cruel inhumane or treatment or torture could never counterbalance the damage that is done to the United States of America when we do these things and I think he put it as well as I as any anybody have ever heard now you said that when you were tortured in North Vietnam that you name names you name the names them all the letters. Starting lineup of the Green Bay Packers so. Did you did that stop the torture I mean you gave them names that were totally made about really what they were looking for but did that for a while for a while but mainly what they wanted is what you can get out of torture mainly what they wanted was to get war crimes confessions statements criticizing your contrary those kinds of things it all started really has a science back in the Bolshevik days when they would have the show trials where these people would literally condemn themselves to death in Soviet Russia and confess to crimes that they couldn't possibly have committed because they'd been tortured to the point where they do anything to relieve the pain you see on point and oh by the way there is one. Case published in the media that a al Qaeda individual was captured and gave information about weapons of mass destruction which found itself in 2 speeches given by. The administration I think the president turned out later on the guy recanted you see so it's it's not that useful and psychological methodology is far more effective the Israelis have been prohibited from using torture by their Supreme Court they use psychological methods so you don't trust the information that is extracted under torture you didn't you know I don't trust and you don't know how you would know I don't know one of the practices that is being examined here is waterboarding in which the interrogator basically pours water into the nose and mouth of the person being interrogated and that person thinks that they are drowning although they will be rescued from drowning by the interrogator the person being interrogated doesn't know that you've said that anything that makes it seem like you are on the verge of getting executed his torture do you know that from experience for you in that position no it was never that never happened to me but I know of enough cases where people have believed that they were going to be killed or executed that is has tremendous any any person who's well versed in the mental impacts of something like that will tell you how damaging that that can be as I said most people beating as far. Far preferable than a mock execution be. I just heard a home in the background is that a plane going by. Yes Yes Yes Oh Ok great I'll just wait till it goes. On real slowly is that. It may be a helicopter coming in a black helicopter coming in. That. You know as a dedicated watcher of 24 you never know what can happen. Because see they could kill 2 birds with one stone by wiping out a public National Public Radio as well as say political enemy you see so they would be hard to resist this target this is a dark plot indeed. I think we are nearly safe now that plane sounds in the I don't . Know since we've been talking a little bit about you know your experience as a prisoner of war and Vietnam now I know that applies to your thoughts about torture there's another Vietnam question I'd like to ask you. The. National Security Agency recently released hundreds of pages of formerly secret documents on the 1964 Gulf of Tonkin incident and this was the incident where we were told that the North Vietnamese fired on our boats in the Gulf of Tonkin and as a result of this President Johnson authorized air strikes and Congress passed a resolution authorizing military action based on the Gulf of Tonkin now the new documents that were released show that we weren't our boats really weren't fired on the Gulf of Tonkin incident never really happened but information was distorted to make it seem as if it did as a veteran What's your reaction to this. Well we've known for a long time that there were questions about the Gulf of Tonkin Incident unquote the important more important aspect of this Terry is that the firing suppose that it did happen and this still is that enough rationale to escalate the conflict to the point where there's 500000 people there a full scale military engagement with 58000 killed without Congress revisiting the issue it seems to me that. What you really saw was Congress not playing the role that it's constitutionally appointed to do you see what I mean. So you think that whether the Gulf of Tonkin happened or not Congress should have revisited the issue and I thought Oh absolutely particularly when we went from an escalation a dramatic escalation remember when the Gulf of Tonkin incident took place there was a relatively small number of American troops on the ground and b. At Newman it dramatically escalated and as did the conflict Congress should have revisited 100 numerous occasions in my view revisited it and pulled our troops out revisit it least at least made decisions whether to remain there whether you were to accept an escalation or whether it was in our national security interest to continue the conflict. They basically took a pass and let the executive branch until after the Tet Offensive basically had the the administration had a relative the free hand in conducting the conflict so to me can you supported the invasion of Iraq and now you support sending in more troops and say to pull out now would likely lead to full scale civil war. You've criticized Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld felt for not having enough troops when we invaded Iraq. Do you hold him responsible for any other things that you consider to have been misjudgments and how the war has been executed. A number of misjudgments when the looting started and they failed to put that down with whatever it took created an environment of chaos and insecurity for the people of Iraq when we vastly underestimated the challenge of this growing insurgency there was a period of time Terry when things were pretty quiet in Iraq and we had a window of opportunity to rebuild the infrastructure and and address some of the problems that faced the country and they didn't do it. The administration. In Baghdad was poorly done ish remember there was General Garner was there and he was out and then Bremmer came in. Mr Wolfowitz said that we would pay for the war in Iraq with Iraqi oil revenues when the 1st insurgency when the looting started search area around shells said stuff happens and then when the insurgency started he said there was a few dead enders the reason why I went is that there was a gross misunderestimated of the challenge we faced in the post conflict. Aspect of Iraq we're listening to the interview I recorded with Senator John McCain in 2005 we'll hear more of that interview after a short break this is Fresh Air wildlife biologist Jeffrey Rich has a new photo essay on bald eagles in the wild freelance writer John sorry's has published a 4th edition of his popular hiking guide 100 Classic Hikes in Northern California I'm Nancy Reagan and joined me this week for a conversation with 2 authors who have spent much of their life outdoors tune into Nancy's bookshelf Wednesday morning at 10 am here on North State Public Radio. This is Fresh Air Let's get back to the interview I recorded with Senator John McCain in 2005 your new book Character is Destiny is is about. People who you consider to be inspirational to be role models and including Mother Teresa and. You have a daughter that you adopted from an orphanage that I think was run by Mother Theresa am I right yes yes it was her group of nuns who ran the orphanage in Dhaka Bangladesh Yes As for my wife I was visiting with a medical team and Bridget was there and she had a very severe cleft palate and we're very pleased to have the opportunity in the blessing to bring her home and be part of our family when you were running for in the presidential primary in 2000 there was and I think it's fair to call it a smear campaign against you which used your daughter it was like a whisper campaign saying that your daughter was actually a daughter that you had fathered with a black prostitute. That's a yes how did how did this whisper campaign work like how do you how do the I don't mind the rumors travel I don't know because I've never engaged in anything like that we knew that that was out there it's very very painful for us of course. And also in these whisper campaigns are that you are mentally unstable because if you p.o.w. Experiences and that your wife was was an addict. How do you fight against things like that when no one is taking credit for saying it and it's all my understanding is it's like phone calls that come in resume to a talk radio and and like little handouts there were that are an honest man one honestly placed on cars and parking lots and hard to trace back. To an individual Well it's very tough and it was very difficult but I would also point out that one of the major reasons why we lost in South Carolina was not because of that as much as it was that the entire Republican establishment supported President Bush then Governor Bush and we're behind him and he had a great deal more money to spend than we did and they were better organized than than we were in many respects so like I didn't like Terry the things that happened but for me to look back and over something that happened back 5 years ago it is not appropriate I want to move forward I want to put it behind me and I want to serve the people of Arizona in the Senate I think it's wrong to hold a grudge in American politics Well I want to ask you about it because it may be symptomatic of a larger problem in politics today which is the smear campaign you know one when you're smeared from somebody on the other party you may be expected a little bit more but when it's happening from your own party in a primary is it more surprising and as a. Make it more difficult to feel really united with your party when when you know people within that party have have lied about you in such. And such a really destructive way. Well I've found in my experience probably the most Better Campaigns are primaries within the party because you know there's not sometimes not much of a philosophical difference so they so they get into other things the primaries are usually pretty pretty bloody and and better sometimes more so than a than a general election but the other thing about it is. Politics is not being back and it's not like it's tough it's not been back and it's tough and it's and it's it's difficult. But I think that what you really need to look at is the campaign that you waged overall with some mistakes and some excesses I'm very proud of the campaign that we ran and I'm proud I look back on the people that supported us and the people that rallied to us and you know I'm very proud of the job that we did and for me to be angry 5 years later and say This person did this or that person or they did this look Americans want us to move on and I was just reelected to the Senate in the last election in 2004 I campaigned for the people of Arizona so let me represent you in your interests and your values in your ambitions not to look back in an anger at something that happened in a primary in South Carolina not only do I not hold a grudge as you know I campaigned very vigorously for the reelection of President Bush and I was glad to do so again I was asking not not because you're holding a grudge but because you know your campaign isn't the only campaign that this kind of thing has happened and. I'm a warning if you think that there's something that can be done to stop to stop those well here's And I'm wondering too if you know consider this with Bo campaign against John Kerry similar in fashion to this mayor campaign against you or if you consider that to be you know different animal altogether. I think it was different in in many respects because this was a paid for ad campaign what happened was all sort of under the radar kind of thing . In the campaign you're talking about South Carolina I think that the media can play a more instructive role maybe if the media had exposed some of this stuff more widely we could have done a better job and maybe we should have done a better job in exposing it in the Swift Boat campaign I immediately condemned the attacks on John. Kerry's combat record said it was dishonest and dishonorable to question his performance for this nation in combat any time before or after his role in combat then I think it's relatively fair game. But no I did not approve of the of the attacks on John Kerry's combat record because he served honorably in Viet Nam Just as President Bush in my view served honorably in the National Guard Senator John McCain recorded in 2005 after we take a short break we'll hear the interview I recorded with him in 2000 shortly after he lost the Republican presidential primary to George w. Bush his family memoir Faith of My Fathers had just been published in paperback I'm Terry Gross and this is Fresh Air. The new of our Family Foundation supports w.h.y. Wise fresh air and its commitment to sharing ideas and encouraging meaningful conversation support for n.p.r. Comes from this station and from little passports a monthly subscription service for kids each package includes games souvenirs and activities from a new country designed to spark curiosity and cultures around the globe little passports dot com slash Radio one from a law firm Cooley l.l.p. With offices in the u.s. Europe and China Cooley advises entrepreneurs investors financial institutions and established companies around the world where innovation meets the law. Anybody else. Stay tuned reveals coming up next at 10 am here on North State Public Radio support for an s.p.r. Comes from courtesy Subaru of Chico in recognition of North State Public Radio's 50 years of service to the north state information about the Subaru love promise and how courtesy Subaru gives back to community non-profits is available at Chico Subaru dot com We now return to. This is Fresh Air I'm Terry Gross we're remembering Senator John McCain the 1st time I spoke with him was in 2000 after his family memoir Faith of My Fathers was published in paperback McCain's father and grandfather were naval commanders his father was commander in chief of the Pacific forces during the war in Vietnam John McCain served as a naval aviator in Vietnam and was a prisoner of war for 5 and a half years we spoke just a few weeks after he'd lost the 2000 Republican presidential primary to George w. Bush he told me that in spite of losing that primary and 2000 the opportunity to run for the Republican nomination was at that point the greatest experience of his life so rare in the wonderful experience and one that always treasure in not back either and with anger or remorse because the fact that I was a loser. I was able we were able to motivate millions of young Americans to be involved in politics again and for example in the Michigan primary 300000 voters who voted never voted in their lives and so I'm grateful for the experience I learned that Americans. Are very patriotic I learned that Americans want to serve the country I learned that there's great cynicism out there and even alienation on the part of young people as to whether they are really. Well represented anymore you know Washington d.c. And they all low they don't know the specifics of campaign finance reform most of never heard of McCain Feingold there is a cynicism out there that they are no longer represented in the special interests do and there's a desire for overall reform reform the tax code reform of education reform of the military reform of health care and if properly called Americans will respond in I believe in a most patriotic fashion. Press the most controversial statements you made during the primary had to do with Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell when you called them evil and agents of intolerance you said we're the party of Ronald Reagan not Pat Robertson. Didn't Robertson and Falwell become big political powers because of their affiliation with Ronald Reagan. And I believe what I said we're the party of Abraham Lincoln Theodore Roosevelt and Ronald Reagan and what I meant by that was that we're a party of inclusion and not exclusion we're a party of addition and not division and that I believe that Reverend Robertson was leading our party in a way that made us exclusionary and frankly would do my best to a minority status and I couldn't articulate my vision for the future of the party without saying I reject that kind of leadership of our party what I think Reagan did was. Both in demeanor and in action say Come on Ian there is room for everybody in our party that's how they were able to get the so-called. Blue collar Democrats of the Reagan Democrats to come to our side and elect him and reelect him by overwhelming margins I don't think that Ronald Reagan ever sent a message of exclusion finally there's room in our party for the religious right but the religious right in my view and majority of them are good hard working families who are wonderful people but we have to reject people like Reverend Robertson who say that there's not room in our party for those who disagree on specific issues in this election the issue of abortion isn't being discussed nearly as much as it has been in recent previous presidential campaigns you've described yourself as pro-life in your political agenda how would you rate the importance of say of worship compared to say. Campaign finance reform or do you really see abortion fitting as well I think it's incredibly important issue because it has to do with one's fundamental beliefs I mean there's nothing more important than your fundamental belief and not obviously has to do with my view that life begins at conception but I also think that there is some. Areas that that perhaps the Democrats don't want to get into as heavily in the past such as partial birth abortion I think partial birth abortion is terrible. And a majority of Americans do. Medical technology is advancing so that early on earlier. We're proving that there is a life there because children are born earlier and earlier and kept alive and so I think there's some. Lack of leverage on the issue one from the Democrat side that perhaps they enjoyed in previous elections I also think that some of us are feel also that when you're getting into basic fundamental moral beliefs. It gets a little complicated because you have to respect the views of others even if they are you know very strong differences and what I would have and counseled and was rejected I would have had a preamble to our platform saying look we are a pro-life party that is. That is basic tenet of the Republican Party but we do not reject the participation of anyone who just because they disagree on this or any other specific issue as as important as that issue might be see my point you know that you're arguing that even people who disagree with that should be. Upstanding members of the party but I want to I'd also let I'm not sure I've heard you discuss how in your own mind you weigh a woman's ability to control her or her reproductive destiny against your your belief l. You know life begins at conception Well I believe that the process should be that Roe v Wade be overturned. That would not change very much because it would then return the issue to the states that's when those like me who believe in the sanctity of the unborn began then the great debate to convince the hearts and minds of people that abortion is wrong that is the whole battleground is to have a debate and discussion respecting the views of others but trying to convince people that it is that it is wrong but just simply overturning Roe v Wade would just as I said return it to the states then we need a great national debate and then the woman's right to quote choose should be balanced obviously against a the viability of a human life and I be eager to enter into that debate with the pro-choice people. With with respect We're listening back to the interview I recorded with Sen John McCain in 2000 we'll hear more after a break this is Fresh Air. Asking good questions is at the heart of good journalism but we here at North State Public Radio aren't the only ones who can ask good questions with our series since you asked we turn to you what have you always wondered about the North Sea What questions do you have about this place we call home let us know by leaving a voicemail at 433487 that's 433487 or submit your question online at my n.s.p. Our dot org. Support for n.p.r. Comes from this station and from life long life luck with Norton works to help protect identities on the information on devices from cyber criminals learn more at Life Lock dot com I'm from tire rock offering a tire decision guide to help customers find tires that fit their car and driving conditions with a network of more than 7000 independent installers Direct dot com helping drivers find deliver install this is Fresh Air Let's get back to the interview I recorded with Sen John McCain in 2000 you said that you were the only person in your high school that you know of who was expected to go into the military both of your fathers were naval commanders your father was the commander in chief in the Pacific during part of the Vietnam War Do you think you would have gone into the military if you weren't expected to if it wasn't part of the family tradition. You know I don't know Terry because one of the aspects of my life which being a child of the fifty's that I was expected it was just sort of a natural evolutionary thing that I was going to be go to the Naval Academy and be in the Navy and that was partially what I rebelled against either consciously or subconsciously by. Me I'm such a nerd do well at the Naval Academy I'm sure there were some regulations that I didn't break while I was at the Naval Academy but not many and so. One thing I've tried to focus with my own children is is obviously encourage them to do well but not in any way to put any pressure towards a military career and I hope that one of them chooses it but I hope it would be out of their own desire rather than the pressures that look I love my parents but it was sort of a thing that was kind of expected in those days and obviously I'd like to have my children be make more of a choice on their own initiative rather than what they might think I would want them to do. You really dislike how Washington conducted the war in Vietnam you felt that they didn't they didn't fight hard enough that the war could have been won and could have been won and in a timely fashion and you say that most of the people you know who were maybe am I going too far there you know I think so let me explain thank you very quickly I think that look we had a decision to make early on in 1904 perhaps at the latest that we were either going to do whatever is necessary to win the war. Or don't go into the conflict at all I could argue with you that it would have been probably a smart thing not to go when given the risk of Chinese and Russian intervention that we couldn't win without you know full scale operations which perhaps the American people wouldn't have supported at cetera et cetera but the worst way to approach the conflict is to do it in half measures which frankly people like Colin Powell and Norman Schwarzkopf who are over there is junior officers and leaders and put 2 and commanders in the air and squadron commanders. Understood that we couldn't do that again and that was reflected in the conduct of Operation Desert Storm. So I could I am very ambivalent about the Vietnam War Sure I wanted us to win sure I'm sorry that millions were sent to reeducation camps and thousands executed and others who had to voted by you know by taking boats but at the same time you can't go into these conflicts without understanding the nature of the enemy which we did not and are devoted to really taking risks in order to ensure victory in my complaint about the Vietnam War was the strategy and tactics employed as more than anything else which were doomed to student doomed to failure but because I'm up you were very critical about how Washington conducted the war how how the politicians were man yes the war yes and I was critical also of some of the military leaders early on who knew that the war that there's no way we could win with that strategy and should've stood up and said I quit I resign I didn't do the war shake your faith and politics you ended up going into politics but you must have been pretty cynical about it during the war no I was cynical about a. About a implying a strategy which even junior officers such as I recognized were was not a viable one and I grieve and mourn to this day the loss of unnecessary loss of young American lives that's the real tragedy of the Vietnam War is those names that are etched in great black granite down on the Mall. But. My motivation to enter politics when i'm was to make sure that we learned those lessons and and it barked on a healing process between the American people and the veterans who served in clude ing our former enemies the Vietnamese So my motivation was a positive one rather than one of disillusionment. Did you after returning to the United States ever have any doubts about the war should have been fought. My doubts were significant I read and studied for literally a year everything I could get my hands on about it and I wanted to know what it was that caused me to spend several years over there all the way back to the French occupation of then Indochina and all those things and I learned a lot and again I I learned that that. The Vietnamese were to a large degree nationalise. That there was a significant disconnect between what was going on on the ground and what was believed in Washington but Jack Kennedy at his inauguration said America would go anywhere and beer any burden in defense of freedom and there was the belief in both Kennedy and Johnson the Nixon administration and the 5th am fell the domino theory all of Asia would fall etc etc Well clearly that was not the case and fact Nixon's trip to China during the Viet Nam war of is an interesting scenario but I saw I believe that the point was that if we ever send our young people into conflict we have to have clear cut goals we have to have a a clear strategy for victory and recognize that if the American people don't support that conflict then inevitably you are bound to fail and that's why I admired Pres former President Bush's ability to marshal American public opinion prior to our military engagement in the Persian Gulf War if you had done all the reading that you did after you returned home before you went to Vietnam would you have still wanted to go. Very That's a very interesting question I think I would have. I'm sure I would have gone because I was a career military officer but I certainly would a had a lot more questions but very frankly I don't know what answered. But I did that that's a that's that question has never been asked to me before Terry but I think that I would have had significant questions but I'm I believe as a career military officer I still would have gone questions or doubts. Well I would had concerns. Look we had doubts on board the ship never forget one time I had was assigned a target that came from directly from the base from the White House that had been bombed 37 times before 100 yards down the road was a bridge that was not on the target list that clearly the trucks were going over we all remember watching in the port of Haifa in the Russian ships coming in offload the missiles the missiles trucked up put into place and then being fired at us and we couldn't do anything to stop that from happening it was some of it was so insane it was almost ludicrous and so we could see those of us who were in combat how crazy the tactics were and how they really were not hurting the Vietnamese the only time the North Vietnamese got hurt was the Christmas bombing in 1902 when we virtually paralyzed them with b. 52 bombing. You used to be I guess more of what you might describe as like a good time guy you like to drink you like to have a good time didn't pay that much attention to your studies as we established do you feel like you're still capable of really having a good time or has like the whole experience which happened I know a long time ago but has that still at all affected your ability to relax or to enjoy yourself or you know. Experience pleasure because I know for some people that really does affect the ability to experience pleasure. I enjoy every moment of my life I enjoy every sunrise and every sunset I enjoy and love the beauty of the state that I represent and the my experience who have made me so appreciative of the opportunities that I've been given and the life that I've been able to lead I enjoy every every day and I look forward to getting up there why relax I have a high energy level and so I get restless and I read and try to hike and get some exercise and that kind of stuff and I you know work late and get up early but that's but that's not because I don't have got the ability to enjoy myself I always have this kind of a feeling deep down that I want to seize the moment and do whatever I can and what I want I have the opportunity to do it John McCain I want to thank you so much for talking with us thank you for your time thank you Terry and thank you for some very tough and interesting questions Senator John McCain recorded in 2000 his memorial service will be held Saturday at the National Cathedral one week after his death. We're going to take a short break here then Iraq critic Ken Tucker will review a new album featuring country music stars performing songs written by Roger Miller This is Fresh Air. Experts say that if you're stressed out by the news you should spend time with a parent to relax you don't spend time with this week's Wait Wait Don't Tell me. Promise to be adorable and gazed with her big brown eyes and you don't have to clean up after it usually join us for Wait Wait Don't Tell me from n.p.r. . Turn into night at 8 pm here on North State Public Radio support for an s.p.r. Comes from oil American all the farmers since 1907 growing 1000000 and blending of variety of extra virgin olive oils from their orchards in Corning to tables around the world information about daily tasting hours orchard and all of mill tours and the collections can be found online at Lewes they're all of oil dot com. This is Fresh Air Roger Miller who died in 1902 at the age of 56 was best known for vividly detailed ballads like king of the road and novelty hits like dang me and you can't rollerskate in a buffalo heard the new album titled king of the road a tribute to Roger Miller has just been released featuring cover versions of Miller's songs by some of country music's biggest stars such as Dolly Parton Kacey Musgraves Loretta Lynn and Brad Paisley rock critic Ken Tucker has a review of my name is Roger Miller probably one of the greatest songwriters that ever. Had So this is going to prove. That me up here for a 2nd Sam already kill me for that I have written a few songs probably 8 or 900 and my professional career and I would like to do about 70750 or night for the area. That little 22nd audiocassette leads off king of the road a tribute to Roger Miller and it captures nicely the way Miller knew how good he was even if his off handed manner kept you from being aware of just how great he was Miller started out a Nashville songwriter and one of his early successes was the last word in Lonesome is me and 1968 for Eddie Arnold on this new tribute album however it gets a really wonderful new interpretation by Dolly Parker who is joined by Alison Krauss. Born in Fort Worth Texas Miller was one of the last country stars to come from the sort of poor rural background that there are so frequently mythologize as he picked cotton and was educated in a one room schoolhouse he didn't live in a house that had electricity until he was 15 he presented himself as a genial good ole boy but one possessed with a gift for verbal dexterity there's a tightness to his right and schemes a perpetual surprise to his word choices and he less to city to the way he broke down the syllables of his punch lines in big hits like chug a lug England swings and dang me that last song gets a highly faithful rendition from Brad Paisley who's basically doing a Roger Miller imitation and a good one but. Here's . A live life. Was in home with a month old child to death. Sang me. Would you wait for me. Tribute albums are usually terrible things alternately to slavish to the original material or sentimental distortions of the artist's original intentions this one featuring $36.00 tracks contains just enough 1st rate performances to make it worthwhile The best example of an artist making a song her own is Kacey Musgraves version of Kansas City Star. Miller wrote and recorded this song as a brisk rollicking humorous piece a satire of showbiz fame Musgrave's takes the song and reshapes it as a loping piece of cowboy music. Just. Was. It was neatly written. Job better. Than a car. And Iraqi. Kids is. This collection features a very eclectic lineup that includes the actor John Goodman he's here because he starred in the Broadway production of Miller's 1985 Tony Award winning musical Big River Ringo Starr also pops up doing a forgettable version of a forgettable song called Hey would you hold it down. Much better is Rodney Krauss achingly lovely rendition of a lesser known Miller tune called world so full of love. And knows how it feels to me. With no desire to live. By Nola. To. Try all 2 full. Months even though he died of cancer when he was only 56 Miller's career spanned 3 decades he's one of those songwriters who was so prolific and yet so good there are many 1st rate songs still waiting to be fully appreciated and if you ever find a copy of his great but little known 1970 album or trip in the country snap that sucker up Miller is a guy who is perpetually worthy of rediscovery. Ken Tucker is critical large for Yahoo t.v. King of the road a tribute to Roger Miller tomorrow on fresh air we'll feature an interview from our archive with comic playwright and screenwriter Neil Simon who died Sunday at the age of 91 and will start our series of interviews with Emmy nominees we'll hear from John Oliver who satirical political series last week tonight is nominated for outstanding variety talk series I hope you'll join us. Executive producer. Our technical director an engineer. Of digital media. Directs the show I'm Terry Gross. Support for n.p.r. Comes from this station and from Acorn presenting a place to call home a family saga of privilege secrets and scandal set amid sweeping social changes in 1950 s. Australia the new season begins streaming Friday on Acorn t.v. . From a log me in makers of go to a collaboration meeting platform that comes equipped with features to help people stay focused to get work done learn more it go to meeting dot com. When there's a lot of news there also can be a lot of noise Security are going to quickly work that important back to see that need to stay more or less important details until it all becomes one big pond of his existence he said All things considered we go through all that in the race so you can know the facts this is All Things Considered fear the bigger picture listen to all things considered every afternoon tune in from 4 to 7 pm here on North State Public Radio support for n.s.p. Comes from c.s.u. Chico continuing education and the Open University program open university opens doors to educational and career opportunities by offering sheet.