World Service this is Julia Morrow with the real story one topic one hour every week and this week the protests in Lebanon in recent days the people of Lebanon have been staging an extraordinary revolt against their politicians schools universities and offices have been closed as hundreds of thousands of demonstrators have taken to the streets of Beirut and other places around the country to demand sweeping changes a proposed tax on whatsapp voice calls triggered the protests a plan that was quickly dropped but they're about much more than that people from right across the sectarian lines of the country want an end to economic stagnation endemic corruption and a lack of basic public services and it seems that reforms announced by the prime minister a few days ago are in the minds of the protesters too little too late so what now for Lebanon that's the real story from the b.b.c. After the news. Hello this is the b.b.c. News if you know MacDonald the trumpet administration has opened a criminal investigation of the earlier probe of Russian interference in the 2016 us presidential election President trumpet been highly critical of that inquiry by Special Counsel Robert Mueller a Department of Justice review of the miller probe has now been upgraded to the status of a criminal inquiry David Willis reports for the best part of 2 years President Trump constantly railed against the investigation by his own Justice Department calling the miller inquiry a witch hunt and a hoax now in a move that will upgrade an inquiry that got underway in May The Justice Department is to effectively conduct a criminal investigation into itself grading the investigation into how the Russian probe began not only grants investigators additional powers it also enables them to file criminal charges which may please President Trump who earlier this year accused the f.b.i. Officials who opened the Russian investigation of treason anti-government protests have broken out again in Iraq weeks after more than 150 people were killed in demonstrations against unemployment and alleged corruption Roger Walker reports a 2nd phase of protests was not due to start until Friday but hundreds of people took to the streets of Baghdad on Thursday dozens headed towards the high security green zone where they were forced back by security forces using water cannon there were also protests in the southern cities of d.i.y. Nia and as a rare a government report this week at knowledge that excessive force had been used to put down the demonstrations in early October 70 percent of those killed in Baghdad were shot in the head or chest. About 2000 people in Northern California including the entire population of the turn of Geyserville have been ordered out of their homes to escape a fast moving wildfire wildfire began as a relatively small blaze in the state's wine producing area so no more County. Thousands of Zimbabweans are expected to take part in a protest March today Friday to call for an end to United States and European Union sanctions they were imposed 2 decades ago targeting hundreds of officials including the current president Emerson Mangog Shingo New Yorker has more. Have declared a public holiday and dispatched hundreds of buses around the country to ensure a large turnout is about his neighbors also supporting the call it's the most concerted effort against measures the government says have cost billions in lost revenue only the late leader Robert Mugabe his family and the state's company remain on that you list but over 140 officials and businesses under u.s. Sanctions the u.s. Says the measures are targeted and that only political reforms will remove them b.b.c. News the World Trade Organization will no longer recognize South Korea's designation as a developing nation in a move also backed by saw it follows u.s. Allegations some countries were taking advantage of the w. To use conservation Here's Laura picker President Donald Trump name says Korea and a list of countries claiming developing countries status in July and claim that this was unfair preferential treatment Asia's 4th largest economy has used the privileges of the status to protect its agriculture sector and currently imposes a tad of more than 500 percent on some rice imports However souls' finance minister hung on key said that it was difficult to be recognised as a developing nation considering the country's economic status he added that the government would do everything it could to protect the agriculture sector rice farmers are already threatening to hold mass protests. The electoral board in Bolivia has officially declared President Evo Morales the winner of last Sunday's election The move comes despite disputed results which have sparked riots a general strike and opposition allegations of fraud. Crowds have been scrambling up Lulu at the Australian monolith formerly new Nazir's rock hours before the claim is banned for ever to Marsa reports there is a white line that is the track thousands of people of holding to only rule in recent weeks before decline closes for good my view is that a strike should be for all Australians so I've got no problem at all with people harming Iraq indigenous groups however have never wanted visitors to scale the giant red rock they believe it say creates and has a power and a spirituality like nowhere else Donald Fraser an Aboriginal elder is relieved the climate is closing our good feeling they always the tongue for the client to have a good rest and heal up b.b.c. News you're listening to the real story with me Julia Morrow and this week will head to Lebanon. The daunce mix from Tripoli's up and coming musician d.j. Mattie. Unlike other occasions though this week his musical event took place on the balcony of a 3rd floor apartment which was surrounded by thousands of people who were there not to have a good night out but to vent their anger at the government it's not just Lebanon's 2nd city of Tripoli thousands have been taking to the streets in the capital Beirut as well as in other centers They've been waving the national flag in an extraordinary show of unity of the people against a government they view as corrupt and self-serving. The minimal toward the school I think that the man on the map where I feel that this is because I know because me and my man we don't how many human rights we don't get we don't get anything from them next to me he says and I'm not even education is like it's like $0.03 and here's. What they're making my God But when they know that this is one of the things that's a positive that does that help others and just like me you know he writes I mean one thing all this new one and all they're going to become people in the guy and they've got a happy ending if you like that we might begin. The proposal to raise taxes in the coming budget including one on the use of social media apps like Whatsapp is seen as the final straw that triggered people to come out onto the streets in fact d.j. Marty who I mentioned at the beginning was out on the streets as well to protest against the impact the state of the economy was having on his business and even though the Prime Minister Saad Hariri went on national television to reverse some of the proposals the public anger seems to be continuing so is Lebanon in the midst of a revolution through the protests reflect a generation that's ready to look beyond a system of sectarian patronage and is there a danger of the country returning to the days of armed conflict and war among various sectarian groups well I'm joined by 4 guests who've been thinking about these questions and will shed some light on the direction that Lebanon may be heading in with me in London I'm joined by Lina head of the Middle East and North Africa Program at the research organization Chatham House Lina Welcome thank you and in our studio in Beirut we have him co-founder and director of research triangle consultants and assume. Society activist These are welcome to the program Thank you pleasure to be here also in Beirut is not a now we an artist and a political activist not a welcome to you thank you to Gabriele is in Beirut as well chief economist at Los bank and I say Welcome thank you Julia a question to all 4 of you to start the conversation Lina to you 1st how different do these protests look to you very different in fact I would go as far as call what's happening a social revolution in Lebanon this is the 1st time that we've seen on Sunday of last week half the Lebanese population take to the streets to protest the government this is unprecedented and the protests are happening all over Lebanon not just in Beirut and they are basically witnessing people from all social backgrounds religious backgrounds regular Joe Joe graphical backgrounds this is really a show of unity like never before unprecedented you know says do you go along with that definitely I've witnessed for example the movement in 2015 which was considerably also large this is when the deeper and more radicalized I think that doesn't pertain it shows that the Lebanese have decided probably to move forward with a different deal I would say different socio economic political deal and I've been on some context from you how different do these protests look as far as you're concerned that extremely different than 2015 that much bigger in scope there are much deeper as well in the sense that there have been triggered by a deepening socio economic crisis there are also very different from the protests of 2005 that were triggered by the assassination of Prime Minister Hariri and we saw about a 1000000 persons in the streets of Beirut at the time calling for the withdrawal of the Syrian army at that time it was more political and security protest and popular demand today it's him. Purely force your economic issue that has driven the Lebanese population to the streets and it has broken all the cliches about sectarian barriers and regional barriers and it has broken also defeated factor of from criticizing their own leaders not a way to you and the context and the scale of protest and what we're seeing here how different does it look to you there is a level of awareness that has never been raised before and the reason for that is the pain and the long process that has led us from the end of the Civil War to today like 30 years later at the end of the civil war Lebanon we had $1000000000.00 in that today we have $85000000000.00 in that so and nothing to account for no electricity no water the country is going down the drain with millions $8084000000000.00 none accounted for let me stay with you on your word pain in your daily life how do you feel that pain there is a shared pain no matter where you are or where you live you be the polluted air garbage I mean there is no this new sustainable solution regarding garbage you go to public schools they're not what we need young people are abroad they need they need to leave because they can't find work in Lebanon so it's only on all levels. If you were to look at the process of getting to this point where people are so angry and so frustrated garbage was mentioned forest fires badly handled have been mentioned in recent times of course there was the whatsapp tax but all of this is being seen as the straw that broke the camel's back is that fair you know it's pointed out that the deep problem in Lebanon is actually a political economy it's how the post of state was built it was built on a power sharing system the parliament is divided between blocs most of the governments were national unity government which basically we. We deal with the banks made a system to run an economy that is rent seeking the reconstruction process was was built on boring rather than taxation and you're talking about the process that's been in place since the end of this definitely And for this whole political economy relations that were going on since 1900 came to the brink breaking point already we can see the symptoms developing 2015 was one of these breaking points the garbage was was a symptom not the real problem the Republicans why in the 1st place we have a garbage crisis it's because the oligarchs in government and they are only gods we are we are ruled by and by a coalition of only gods basically needed to basically divide the public funds so to an extent we're picking individual symptoms up because for example if you can't find if you can't fight forest fires effectively it's because the public services are not in place and are not properly funded to do it exactly that the government has not been investing in the infrastructure you know you live in it's I think ranked in like 121 out 137 countries and quality of roads for example the 3 worst countries in quality of atrocity for example and this is with governments that have since 1990 been saying it will take in public to build this infrastructure. The wider view from outside Lebanon how much does this matter should this matter to its near neighbors and further afield it should matter of a lot because what's happening in Lebanon is not detached from the regional context the conflict in Syria is linked to what's happening in Lebanon the international sanctions on Iran have something to do with what's happening in Lebanon because the political parties in Lebanon that are in the ruling basically cos they all have patrons outside and some of them are involved in conflicts outside for example Hezbollah the Lebanese militia and political party is fighting alongside the Assad regime in Syria they are there in support of it on that is also. Supporting the Assad regime in Syria the sanctions on Iran have meant that Iran's economic situation is getting a bit pressured and that has resulted into economic pressure on Hezbollah itself and therefore just like all other Lebanese political parties that are in power in Lebanon Hezbollah last year when a new cabinet was formed another man insisted on getting access to certain key ministries that are seen as a look at the source of income and so you can see how the regional context is very much connected to what's happening in Lebanon in which case the point you made at the start about the fact that these protests seem to embrace pretty much everybody irrespective of who they support and who they believe in matters a lot Absolutely I mean even some people who have traditionally supported Hezbollah are starting to question why Hezbollah is spending its resources on the fight in Syria rather than answering to its constituents in Lebanon so here we have a very clear case of patronage and even then people are starting to question their own community leaders and you can widen the lens and see that even in context and which people have traditionally followed certain sectarian leaders they are beginning to question that relationship themselves so there is definitely a sense of awakening across the country that's making them question not just the performance of their sectarian leaders for example but this very relationship itself and realizing that it is actually this client patron relation between sectarian leaders and people is basically the heart of the problem we have a system and this is I know or rather crude way of describing it where top political jobs are allocated to an extent according to religion across the different religions in the country and critics would say that that has produced a system of patronage pick that apart for so that we get a grip of what we're talking about. Here since the beginning of the 1st Republic post independence after independence from France it was always the Dutch and the Indian Lebannon the parliament is is basically divided between sects which means on a quarter basis each sect are located a certain share and the parliament of course the civil war exacerbated that situation so you see that the pos thought if you have this division also going deep into the baroque Recy all of sudden the bureaucracy is not there to implement policy it's there to sustain a balance of power between the different parties these different parties run by all accounts basically are also supported by regional forces so all the only guns have to sustain these deep networks of regional and international patronage adults as well and it was a system that was seen as a way to rebuild peace after a terrible war wasn't it yeah May I jump in here because I think one of the main problems is like in 1991 the Lebanese parliament legislated for a general amnesty law which means nobody is going to be accountable for any crime or any destruction in the country this no allow the militia leadership to be able to take charge of the government and to take charge of the political situation and had we not had a general amnesty law this iteration would have been completely different let alone the fact that there was no nothing amongst the population something like in South Africa or a $1.00 like truth and reconciliation for people to be able to talk to each other again in an open way in a in a way where it really forgiveness could happen and here you are now among those protesting against the system a system that you would clearly like to see change radically if it is as it is do you feel powerless to actually change it meaningfully because at the moment from outside it looks as if what tends to happen is that people will be moved around but will broadly speaking still on. The top job is in one way or another I think the demands now are you know very clear the government needs to leave we need a new independent government from all this sectarian oligarchies then we need to apply the Constitution you know that is the Article $22.00 of the constitution that was you know in the constitution after Typhoon dream and that said we create elections nonsectarian elections to elect a parliament and none think that in parliament and this has not been applied since 1901. All this sectarian only garhi is illegal it's illegal to hold. Elections So there are ways to move forward how much does the current political system in your view block meaningful change 1st of all I want I would like to go back to what you know regarding the regional context finitely that is that he didn't have contacts and influence but it's over rated and it has become an excuse by local politicians to not act on meaningful reforms that threaten their networks or. That access to major positions where they can finance their political parties 2nd the application of the pact that ended the war and known as the thought if a chord led to that instead of leading to a separation of powers it let loose the distribution of powers if you properly applied the act of the time we would have had administrative decentralisation we would have had a nonsectarian electoral system there are clearly major points in that package that were ignored totally ignored and poorly applied regarding the implementation or freeform it has been very difficult because in the current system when one side advances a few forms and succeeds in implementing them its view would by the other political force of. As a political loss it has turned into the perception of his evil sum game and the result has been edited oration in the quality of public services but the root is the poor quality of governance and the World Bank's governance indicators for 2018 are very clear we are in the bottom 28 percent of countries in terms of good I 30 quality we are in the book bottom 3rd of countries in terms of accountability we are in the bottom 26 percent of $214.00 countries in terms of government effectiveness we are in the bottom 24 percent of countries in terms of the proper implementation of the rule of law and we are in the bottom 20 percent of countries worldwide in terms of control of corruption so that's not the general complex that's a lack of domestic political will and that's a local structural weaknesses that has led to having structural problems in the economy that make the economy vulnerable to any kind of the general or domestic political or security shocks mention was made a moment ago of Hezbollah the Shiite militant organization and political party it is a major partner in the current national unity government Lebanon's foreign minister Brown Bassil who is also the son in law of the president was interviewed last month by the B.B.C.'s hard to talk program in which he was challenged over his party's alliance with Hezbollah Hezbollah is part of that have been these population as well as part of the government has been part of the parliament. As well is defending his being a guest along with an event we know Iran is funding is supplying and training Hizbollah with new precision guided missiles Hizbollah just a couple of days ago boasted about its new anti warship missiles you are entirely happy for this military buildup to be taking place on your territory no. Controlled by you the Lebanese state but controlled by Hizbollah and therefore ultimately controlled from Iran you're happy with all of that are you know I would be happy when peace would prevail in my country and that each and then this exception of situation would have and I would be happy when is the end was the spec the that is what you should and would stop occupying my country and would stop I guess aimed at a but I then I would be happy why is your message on this so out of step with your own boss the prime minister of Lebanon the Saad Hariri Mr Hariri said all of his bola this organization is not only Lebanon's problem it is the entire regions problem and they are acting in southern Lebanon on contrary to our position. Minister that defend the Lebanon when he was I get asked by Israel and unless 2 weeks even 0 You also lose this because your prime minister describes the Hizbollah as a deep problem why don't you because as well as considered by many countries as a problem we cannot think that this course of the such and we agree that this is not a usual situation and the country which is occupied where you have the out of me and you has you have an armed group and this is why we say we want to get rid of that situation by having peace in place you as one of the leading Christian parties movements inside your country have consistently sought partnership and alliance with Hizbollah you provide cover for what Hizbollah is doing and what the Iranians are doing inside your own country we have enough in the unity government. Headed by our Prime Minister Saad Hariri in which all the live any factions political forces are present. Among them as has been Lebanon's foreign minister Brown Bassil talking to Stephen Sackur on the hard talk just over a month ago while Hezbollah grew to prominence fighting against the Israeli occupation in the south of the country as was referred to in that conversation it traditionally stayed clear of politics. How did it come to be such an important part to president. In 1990 you've got basically the peace process in Lebanon Hezbollah stayed out of the government as you have said but the government in Lebanon was maintained under Syrian occupation until basically 2005 when massive demonstrations kicked out the Syrians and of course the liberation of the South with Israel so we ended up in a situation where Hezbollah needed to protect itself of course and that was coming back also needed to be part of the save all agog club so there was an intersection of interests on needed an ally to come to the table to divide the spoils of the state and Hezbollah needed also somebody to play ball let's say in the political arena in Lebanon and what emerged out of this coalition is a national unity government where Hezbollah is most the most powerful let's say among the rest of the oligarchs and is kind of sets the tone So Lebanon is always is ruled by by a coalition of fighting all the guards but they still maintain a certain let's say peace at home to run business of course. If there is to be a way out of the current crisis given that there is this national unity government in place Hizbollah has a role in trying to fight that way out 1st of all I think we should stop using the word national unity government to refer to the current government in Lebanon because it is very misleading the government itself uses the stand in order to claim. Sense of legitimacy by saying we represent everyone in Lebanon when the reality as you can see on the street is that this government has lost its legitimacy amongst Lebanese citizens Hezbollah is part of the Lebanese media it's you know going to be impossible to say whatever configuration happens next Hezbollah's just going to disappear so the question is how do people find a way forward that does not cause further schisms between Hezbollah and the rest of society because as you can see from the skirmishes that have started to happen on the streets and here I'm referring to certain Suggs that are appearing on the streets who are pro Hezbollah and pro its other political ally called they are starting to intimidate the protestors not just in Beirut but even in south Lebanon which is considered traditionally heartland of Hizbollah support those 2 movements to deny any links to those specific protests at this day they did I them however many reports are basically showing individuals who have been identified who are very well known as supporters or members of this organization so I don't think the denial is fooling anybody but this is an indication of a schism forming in society so I think the way forward is to base I guess going to be very difficult because Hezbollah is the only political party possessing arms in Lebanon but the way forward is to say to his below you are not excluded but if you want to play by the rules just like everybody else meaning just become a political party contest elections under a nonsectarian system then you're very welcome to do so don't exhaust all your thoughts about the way forward because we will talk more about that in the next half we have to take a short break now but to remind you please do let us know what you think of the program or if you have any ideas for topics you'd like us to look into you can email us the real story at b.b.c. Daughter c. Oh don't you k. And if you enjoy the program we have a pub cast you can subscribe to just search for b.b.c. The real story in your podcast. Distribution of the b.b.c. World Service in the u.s. Is made possible by American Public Media producer and distributor of award winning public radio content a.p.m. American Public Media with support from t. Rowe Price offering a strategic investing approach that examines opportunities 1st hand since 1937 price invest with confidence. Traffic in Denver is not great hey it's from the c.p.r. News room I cover transportation and growth for c.b.s. News and that means I've been following r.t.d. Is proposal to cut service because of driver shortages many of our readers listeners and followers have been asking us about that so we'll be holding an Ask Me Anything on Reddit if you've got questions about what's happening with public transportation in Denver Ask dot com slash our slash Denver starting at noon today coming up on the real story in the next half hour Is there a potential compromise in Lebanon or other problems being highlighted by the current protests too hard to fix given the complicated way in which the country is run and if those now in power can't satisfy the demands for change who can will things remain broadly peaceful against that backdrop of political uncertainty and how will the rest of the world respond that's after a summary of the news b.b.c. News if you know MacDonald a criminal investigation has been opened by the trumpet administration into the earlier proof of Russian interference in the 2016 us presidential election President trumpet been highly critical of that inquiry by Special Counsel Robert Mueller calling it a witch hunt and accusing the f.b.i. Officials who initiated it of treason a Department of Justice review of the miller prove has now been upgraded to the status of a criminal inquiry. Antigovernment protests have broken out again in Iraq weeks after more than 150 people were killed in demonstrations against unemployment and alleged corruption dozens of demonstrators headed towards the high security green zone where they were forced back by security forces using water cannon a rapidly spreading wildfire in northern California has left the lead the authorities to evacuate about 2000 people from their homes hundreds of local volunteers are battling the flames fires are also reaching north of Los Angeles in Central Australia huge crowds have been scrambling up you'll rue the giant desert monolith formerly known as Iraq in the final hours before climbing is banned forever long queues face to face a delayed start on Friday because of high winds the local An angry people of imposed the climbing ban saying it's a secret site thousands of Zimbabweans are expected to take part in a protest March on Friday to call for an end to u.s. And e.u. Sanctions the authorities have declared a public holiday and hundreds of buses have been across the country to bring people to March in the capital Harare. Even basters a meeting in Brussels or discuss whether to grant Britain another break city extension it's unclear how long such a delay would last Mostly you members are prepared to give Britain another 3 months front once a shorter period to London can complete the process b.b.c. You're listening to the real story from the b.b.c. World Service with me Julia Morrow this week we're looking at the protests in Lebanon and what they might mean for the political and economic future of the country with me head of the Middle East and North Africa Program at the research organization Chatham House who's here in London and in Beirut we have news our Ghanem a co-founder and director of research triangle consultants not a 7 hour we an artist and a political activist and Nasib Gabriele chief economist at the big loss bank we began our discussion earlier looking at the factors that led to these unprecedented protests in Lebanon let's dig a little bit deeper and explore the economic realities in the country and why people are talking about an economic collapse 1st so let's go back to the protests and hear the story of Sophia fogl a businesswoman and a mother of 2 teenagers a short while ago she told me why she's been going out to protest every day I am what you call like the generation of the world because I have witnessed I was born when civil war in Lebanon has that and I was 16 and it has ended so we were it is due to the war and we have witnessed the most difficult times after Lebanon and Abeyta it and yet we have never ever let there now with no starch and economic crisis this is the worst we can't even provide for our kids what I would Throughout the way and throughout all that if you could and this is why not because we're lacking any sources now because we're like war or anything just because a certain group of corrupt that politicians and it's like hijacking all their resources as if it's for their own so the. Amik picture for you now is worse than it was when you were growing up during the Civil War definitely definitely tell me about your business because you run your own business don't you and it's difficult but since I'm doing this on my own and I like I thought I learned my lesson not to be involved in anything and I'm starting like it's a small business it's so I still can't control my costs but then again I would be suffering from the income tax waiting for example now it's been like 2 weeks that we're not doing anything and I'm sure I'm going to be suffering because all the shops but I think and what they've been close and downtown and so they're coming to me it is a it's very hard for everyone that leads me to my next question by by taking part in these protests along with so many other people aren't you effect to be damaging your own business and also other businesses that can't open at the moment and this is a 1st time that we're all agreeing to suffer life with money even one month because every time I gambling on that matter that's why I stop and go if we I like doing it then the country will stop then just wish it would be worse and then before but now there is no other solution we have to have a change for the 1st time you fear would back around the like to you if you see from like kids to us to elderly everyone is concerned we can't go on you know I mean his family has someone who's not being able to go to the hospital because you don't have an insured has everyone like all of the family is most of the families are sending their kids up but it's like now it's affecting every single one of us do you worry that there might be a crackdown against these protests at some point. We do but I think that I think it's a disc to be taken but so 5 so far even yesterday I could have the I'm in the seat and all of that I mean it's is being very understanding with it because you know even though I meet guys they are part of this and among those who are suffering the most whether the law is salaries and all of that still and we will see how it would go but it is. Sophia fogl speaking to me about the reason that she is protesting in Lebanon at the moment not a 2nd one now where you heard me ask Sophia about the fact that by protesting in the short term at least there is potential damage to her own business and maybe to other businesses was that in your mind at all when you started taking action here. Today and there is an awareness among everybody who is in the streets from Tripoli to side to Tire in southern Lebanon that although the oligarchies the sectarian oligarch in are supported by opposing regional parties like Iran or Saudi Arabia they are in agreement in the government to pillage the country and this is no you know an awareness a well shared awareness so therefore people are not fooled anymore by Lee's oppositions this is the 1st point the 2nd point is we where on the brink of collapse it's not like we were like Ok sort of Ok maybe 5 years ago maybe 10 years ago but today people did not know whether the next day they would have their salary cut in half so I mean when you don't have anything else to lose you go and you you demonstrate and you try to change the situation and clearly you need to tell this government and this is what we have been telling every the people in the street I've been telling this government you have lost legitimacy you need to resign and the paper that how did he came with and the president supported today is a farce is a joke I mean if you take just one item privatizing isn't even people who are for privatization Ok let's say we are all agree which is not the situation I mean who who trusts this government to go through privatizing I mean these are wolfs How how would you trust them so if roads are blocked if schools are closed if you. Versity closed if people can't go to work if Sophia can conduct her business in the way that she would like to it is all worth it in the short term because of what you are aiming to be on this it's in the hope of a better future because this government needs to leave they need to resign I need to go home and we need to have a new independent government let me talk more about the economics of this not really you were very critical of the government earlier on as you will only be too well aware some people are critical of the government yes but also critical of the banks so how do you respond to the latter well before getting to the banks the current government is completely was completely out of touch with the day to day needs of the Lebanese population and if you go back 2 or 3 years the lady you interview with the situation was better during the war but before the past 3 years we had heard a lot of promises the Lebanese people heard a lot of promises about change and reforms and improvement in economic conditions and fighting corruption and for the past 3 years things have deteriorated steadily on a yearly basis do the Lebanese citizens is forced to pay 2 electricity taxes households have to pay 30 water bills they have to pay the 5th highest cost of mobile communications the education fees have increased after the massive increase in public sector wages and salaries the Midwest management crisis that erupted in the summer of 2015 still do they has no solution we have polluted the environment that hasn't even been addressed so the government has ignored all of this and started talking about reforms but the translation of these reforms is higher taxes on the citizens and the private sector and this is their measure this is that version of an austerity budget 420192020 budget before the October 17th protests started was also loaded with hidden taxes and in that. Taxes and there was no attempt under expenditure side to do so expenditures in a credible and serious way so it's shouldn't be a surprise at all that people took to the street right in this environment and that is a clear confidence crisis between the Lebanese people and the private sector on one hand and this government and political little in class behind it on the other hand I fully and I fully understand that all 4 of you are agreed on where the government has gone wrong here but I just wanted to drill down into this issue of the bank because you know you are aware of the criticism that there is of the banks of the fact that there have been solid profits enjoyed by the banks by financing deficit spending for nearly 3 decades is that not true and therefore do the banks not have to do something significant to help rebuild the economy when this trend started in the mid 1990 s. When the government needed to rebuild the infrastructure and it needed to rebuild state institutions at the same time the finance ministry was working with pen and paper and there was not even computers in the Finance Ministry and it needed to put in place the infrastructure to collect taxes the only side that stepped in to provide financing to the government was the banking sector in Lebanon the promises of support from Arab countries did not materialize and other support also took time to come so the banking sector needed to step in to maintain stability to support the stability of the currency which is a factor of confidence in the country to give time for the government. Thinks the point at the point of getting out is that now you are running high interest no national debt yes in 2002 in 2002 there was a big conference that held in Paris to move forward with the I stick reforms of the government at the time I presented a comprehensive program for and he structuring the public sector for a trading the infrastructure needed financing to take time to have enough time to put. These are the forms in place and that was done thank you to 2002 the banking sector contributed by buying $3600000000.00 in Treasury bills at 0 percent which gave breathing room to the government to implement those reforms so the banking system contribute to $7700000000.00 and the international community contribute to that about $4000000000.00 I get that. I think there is highly interesting enjoyed by the fans who are financing the national debt and I just want to tell you to whether or not that is the case no I think of course there have been have been supporting the stability of the currency as well of the stability of public finances and of the economy and therefore social stability but they have been calling since 2002 for the implementation of these reforms to do is the burden on the banking sector we have a very high level of tax evasion the banks are the only sector that clears it's in 5 income and all of that taxes and there is nothing that being done on the on the tax evasion front your problem is not with the banks I want to give you a chance to answer those charges because as you well know they exist and I suspect he's again I might have put them all you convinced by the argument you've just heard that the banks have had a role over a significant period in trying to an extent to ease what would have been an even more serious economic situation I think Mr Innes he was evading the main problem which is most of the banks are controlled by already by politicos not through 18 out in a major study by. 20 banks have major shareholders lend to political that's not true that's not true this is and I could get information I'm sorry that's not true my grandfather was a member of parliament in the 1st Lebanese Parliament I got into trouble and that means I control part of the banking sector but this is how I will the credibility of this study but would you would you would you disagree that the assets of like for example the assets of the banking sector is $199000000000.00 in 2013 it's 440 percent of Lebanon's g.d.p. These banks need to pull. This money somewhere and they've used with it deal with the major all agog from her lease time to put all this money in the banking sector and financing the public debt with high interest rate so much so much profit has been made by the banking sector by financing this public debt problem and now they're trying to to say that it's just the governance issue it's deeper than that there's an issue that the banks have been supporting and financing for this whole misgovernance and mismanagement of Levanon and when the time comes that somebody has to pay the bill they say well it's not us is the bad governors get oligarchs and they throw them under the bus if you're going to bring down the all of our key we have to bring the whole system that kept all the darky in place one more on this if I may because I don't get too bogged down in the banking issues and clearly the 2 of you are not going to agree on that and I get that and that's fine and I hope you both feel you had a chance to put your point but I want to bring it back to the remarks of the president because I think neither you mentioned President I want to let you hear what he's been saying in recent hours and then get a thought from you as to where this takes things because after a week of silence throughout the protests so far the president has given a public address and has said that he will be a guarantor for the protesters demands Well you also saw a WW or op men why isn't there. Today as we speak the state auditor is working on auditing billions all those responsible for embezzling public funds will be held liable corruption has no religion or sect let's put all the cards on the table let's expose the corrupt and leave the matter in the hands of the judiciary not a 2nd are we what did you think when you heard that I think he does not understand or he doesn't understand that. That he wants to hold the people in the person's win by the public phones accountable I mean he said he said clearly that he wanted. To guarantee the judiciary system and he doesn't really understand that this is not how it works it's not to the president of the Republic to offer a guarantee to the dish to the system one of our main demands is in independent judiciary system as an independent power and here that is not one word from Mr own on that level and this is very serious and this is why I mean he is not convincing actually you can see people did not leave the street people were even angrier and who thought he supported the economic reforms which by all and Alice's are either non implementable or just like a fast I mean and some of them are too little too late and some of them are outright dangerous like the privatization he wants to bring a financial expert to study how we can privatized everything what is left I mean when we hear I mean the street and everybody did that we want to see how we can increase the soft I mean this is this is what we hear we don't trust them they need to leave. Do you make of the president's statement Well it was really rather shallow and didn't really say anything it didn't really address the problem the people on the streets have just largely dismissed it and of course also questioned the fact that it was clearly not given live and that led to all kinds of speculation about whether the president is even fit to rule we were expecting more from him Well frankly I don't think the status quo is going to budge anytime soon the status quo political elites are counting on people just getting bored you know abandoning the protests altogether I don't think we're going to see any meaningful concessions from the status quo and meanwhile I don't think the Street will accept anything less than the full departure of the politicians and the status quo and if I may just add one thing as someone who looks at the Middle East as a whole and the. Just Lebanon I am a bit concerned about this whole issue around the banks not because the banks are not part of the problem unfortunately they have contributed to the problem but this focus on the banks is also a bit politicized and I say this having looked at Iraq in Iraq calls for accountability were being used by certain political entities to discredit their opponents and we are seeing a bit of that playing out in Lebanon today in the sense that it is Hezbollah mainly that seems to be leaking certain information about corruption linked to the banking sector basically lists people from all kinds of political backgrounds except Hezbollah and that's probably because that's not how his well itself is making its money in Lebanon and so people just need to be aware that even something that may look like a call for accountability can be used by by the system to kind of get out their opponents but at the same time To me this is also a sign that some cracks are beginning to form in the political status quo right let me take you forward with all 4 of you in the last 10 minutes or so of the program and clearly these protests are in all of your minds very different and much more significant than the ones we have seen before and you are all highly critical of the current government and the way it is structured and the system within it within which it works but realistically these people are not going to give up power without a significant struggle. That is through and that's what we are expecting to have a face of what a while but that doesn't mean that if the government ends up by resigning which it should do that we will end in a collapse that's not true at all when the government resigns in Lebanon that is a caretaker time until a new government is formed so there will be no vacuum as such it should be replaced by a government of 16 ministers or the maximum of experts whether constitutional experts or. Financial or economic experts in their fields right so this is the kind of technocratic government is it that people have been talking more of an expert Ok government of experts rather than people with. Different names well not a yes coming on that I mean how do you achieve mostly independence as you've just called for I think there are many Lebanese large people who are independent who have expertise who have the common good at heart which is not the situation of the actual oligarchies So there are Lebanese and we have the constitution to follow and to apply so it's not impossible the void and the danger is to keep this government in place and in charge because this is the government that is leading the country in the obvious right needs are going to be just does that mean significant reform of the actual electoral system in order to get to where. It's in the Constitution that is the Article 22 that says we need to hold elections nonsectarian elections to elect a parliament that parliament would then choose from and then when that parliament is elected then you can have a we can have a Senate that presents the community's needs are going to. Agree with what what has been said by now then to see if I think that right now what we need we do need to enter into basically a new social contract and a new concept which means that eradication of sectarianism from the lower house creation of an upper house that actually puts the major issues that the Lebanese fight over in terms of identity or like war and peace in the Opera House and the Senate public prosecutors need to move in areas of corruption fast even faster than the resignation of the government I think the people on the street are interested in that they want to see public officials going to trial the sooner the better and movement into accountability and adjusting into a new electoral law that produces the 3rd Republic and with it and you see a comic deal as well but I'm struck by the scale of change you're talking about a new electricity. Public officials going to trial Senate I mean how do you get from where we are today to what you've just described you know unfortunately the chickens are coming home to roost and political elites of this country have done nothing there was a I think as a book that the art of not governing. Like the people are it's going to take some time by the way I don't believe that anything is sure because we also have many many of course contradictions going on like the issue of his blog the regional play out this is why Anyway the Lebanese did not venture before I think of this full sweeping demonstrations because I think that they understand that it's very hard to change things in Lebanon on harder and potentially risky I mean are people fearful of serious instability and maybe something worse during this period that you've just described this is exactly my point the people are willing to take that risk of coming on the scale of change well one of my very trusted contacts who was working and one of the ministries and Lebanon handling a lot of foreign aid coming into the country told me that if it hadn't been for corruption and money being basically stolen the foreign aid coming to Lebanon that was meant to go to the Syrian refugees and actually practically never reach them would have been enough to pay off the public that in 2 years so I think that gives us the answer that without corruption things might actually be fixed a lot quicker than many would have expected you identified an issue earlier on I'm not a prophet I can put this to you the idea that the hope perhaps among the elite to put that in quotes is that eventually these protests will run out of steam Can you imagine that happening everything can happen but today the mood is not that at all people are angry or today after the president of their public spoke it was clear that he didn't understand what was going on or pretended that he was not aware of what was going on and he did not address the issues the issues is that the government. Needs to resign that a new government of independent need to be organized to be in place and prepared for nonsectarian elections and most importantly if you want to hold people in charge accountable you need an independent judiciary power I mean this is key let me come to all 4 of you finally because we've talked in quite big picture terms about long term change but given that changes tend to be gradual and certain measures will happen and then certain others will follow if there was one thing that you could do now or recommend that was done now that might start that road to change these are going and what would that be I would have independent public prosecutor right now basically calling the politicians for investigations I think this is a serious problem in Lebanon that there is no accountability and this is what the people want to see. For you what would that one measure to start the process of change what would the well we need to restore the confidence between the people and the state and its institutions and that would start with an interim government of experts that would apply the existing laws we don't need a new electoral law that is a thought if that has clearly clauses that says we need a Senate we need administrative decentralisation that's enough to restore confidence and pave the way and give time to a more in-depth look of the political system not a set Now we pick something that you think might start the road to change I mean the government needs to resign we need a new independent government not only technocrats independent mostly because technically could serve the only Garcon through this is not the solution independence is the key we need accountability definitely we need a judiciary system and we need to apply the Constitution because the Article 22 has not been applied that has been neglected and therefore this is why we have a sectarian parliament for the past 30 years and we need a nonsectarian government. We need to stand nonsectarian parliament nonsectarian election and then a Senate that would represent the communities pinpoint something that you feel would start that road to change well I mean what has been said I think is a very good start I would just add a word of caution which is dealing with Hezbollah's constituents they are the elephant in the room a lot of them as I said have begun to question his beloved but most of them remain very very loyal and that's partly because of belief and partly because of fear so there needs to be measures to kind of make sure that these people don't feel that this is a movement against them and up causing some sort of sectarian strife in Lebanon at a time of great turmoil or you will still hopeful about the outcome here I am very hopeful. Hopeful not necessarily because of the political change that might happen but hopeful because of the social change that has already happened I think this demand for a new social contract is just revolutionary in Lebanon and I'm not someone who uses the word revolution quite often but I think it does apply and that is that is the beginning of long term change so there is hope in London is the hope in Beirut Yes I think it took 30 years to reach that level of awareness in the street and you when you listen to the people in the street it's one of them has an amazing level of awareness and reading on the situation that is very clear I think this give us not only hope but faith that we can do it. Hopefully. I'm always hopeful I think by nature the people have given us hope in the sense that they've decided to move forward regardless of the risks and regardless of the cost I know the ball is basically in the oligarchs field they are tasked with doing something funny word it is the use in the streets who have gave us hope it's the fact that they've demonstrated that they don't not have a party that is not a party that is no. Indifference among the Lebanese and that's where the hope comes from Ok that's it this week on The Real Story thank you to all 4 of you for taking part in this program. Not a set now we. Will if you'd like to listen to the program again or any other from the archive you can listen back online by searching for b.b.c. The real story if you enjoyed this week's program make sure you never miss another edition and subscribe to our podcast you can find is simply by searching for the real story in your podcast app and we'd love to hear your thoughts on the program that you've just heard you can e-mail us at the real story at b.b.c. Dot co dot u.k. From me at the team that's the real story for this week thank you very much for listening you're listening to in-depth news from Colorado Public Radio 90 point one k c f r f m Denver 1490 am k c f c Boulder on h.d. At 90 point one f.m. And online at c.p.r. Dot org This is c.p.r. News. N.p.r. Covers the world c.p.r. Covers Colorado with reporting and storytelling that informs inspires and entertains. This kind of coverage is made possible through generous voluntary community support thank you to everyone who made a donation during the fall Dr donations go to strong foundation of funding for Colorado Public Radio. 2 it's 8 in the morning this is news day on the b.b.c. World Service with Ben James and Carney show thanks for joining us in a week's time. To have happen but now the u.k. Prime minister is pushing for a general election and the e.u. Is deciding on an extension our mission is to make. A hearing from some of the last people to. Just one have a look. If we didn't also business we're going to be asking why Amazon's profits have taken. Bridges might be falling down it's according to research it looks at steel structures and it's because of climate change sports news as well. B.b.c. News Hello I'm Gerri Smit the Trump administration has opened a criminal investigation of the earlier probe of Russian interference in the 2016 us presidential election President Trump had been highly critical of that inquiry by Special Counsel Robert Muller a Department of Justice review of the pro Pres now being upgraded to the status of a criminal inquiry from Los Angeles David Willis reports for the best part of 2 years President Trump constantly railed against the investigation by his own Justice Department calling the miller inquiry a witch hunt and a hoax now in a move that will upgrade an inquiry that got underway in May The Justice Department is to effectively conduct a criminal investigation into itself grading the investigation into how the Russian probe began not only grants investigators additional powers it also enables them to file criminal charges which may please President Trump who were earlier this year accused the f.b.i. Officials who opened the Russian investigation of treason antigovernment protests have broken out again in Iraq weeks after more than 150 people were killed in demonstrations against unemployment and alleged corruption Roger Walker reports a 2nd phase of protests was not due to start until Friday but why.