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I was in the car stuff I'm Scott and then as always we're joined by our super producer Alex the mad man Williams And now Scott I'm just going to arbitrarily assign nicknames for me we'll see if they even know the man mad men Ok ma'am answered a great nickname if it's in the tween someone's real 1st and last name Fair enough Yeah I mean if it sticks for the whole episode I guess it'll be fine but we'll see if there's something all better by the end of the episode right because sometimes when you're at the beginning of an endeavor you've not quite sure about just what you're getting into yet and what we know or didn't do the 2 of us do but everybody out there might only know about one of the talks are going to talk about it because that's what the title will be right right where talk about. You know how expensive is it really to maintain an exotic car McLaren and specific specifically what specifically a McLaren f one yes but the 2nd thing I want to talk about Towards the end of this episode is a lengthy listener email that was written to us and we are going to respond to the response like Yes Yeah because we think that it will be valuable to be valuable to you all ladies and gentlemen to you know we strive for fairness in our opinions even me with Honda Odyssey says you know we always get 100 percent of the time we thought was very informative look behind the curtain should we spoil it yet or wait let's wait so everybody scoot to the edge of your seat unless you're driving keep keep your maintain your position maintain your position tending to everybody least do so Scott you brought this idea. 2 was originally and I was I was gassed about it no pun intended because we earlier did an episode on the hidden cost of ownership because we we've all been there you know when your fantasy window shopping right there I guess now increasingly shopping online you're looking at ads for cars you think wow this viper is only blah blah blah amount you know like oh my gosh a Rolls Royce I could own a Rolls Royce but unfortunately just like when you buy a plane ticket just like when you buy a concert ticket. To an even more agree just agree. The cost of keeping a car drive a bull is incredibly significant it's often more than people bargained for and in some cases unfortunately the cost of keeping a car running for one to 5 years can be more than the initial cost of purchasing the actual vehicle Absolutely and we've touched on that so many times with a couple of examples you mention the Rolls Royce you know limited eighty's Rolls Royce Yeah that that looks so affordable on the way that then you realize you know the Rolls Royce maintenance is going to really get you and then you know then we did the same thing with the Viper recently that's our most recent one room is that you know 1st gen vipers relatively affordable considering we're getting concerning what they were right they cost and now that the whole you know brand the whole Mark is gone that's going to be something else that might even drive value up in the future but he was the 1st Jens you find out that that one piece of carbon fiber Hood is you know what $1822000.00 something like that just a ridiculous amount of money if you get into a small you know a minor fender bender right on and and one of the other only is East is the Ferrari I think it's the Fury 3 weight and then someone wrote in finally and said hey check the values of these things because they've gone up by 3 times so instead of being a $25000.00 you know exotic you know Ferrari 3 I think of the 308 it turns out that there are $75000.00 plus the mains is still expensive so that's one we couldn't use anymore but I like our new version the Viper I think if I have it is a good one that's a good one but. This is this is a really this is shocking so we talk about maintenance and we we often say. You know you can spend all of your money on a car get a $1000000.00 What car would you buy it it probably would be a regular run of the mill a car it wouldn't be something exotic because exotic car maintenance gets ridiculous Lee expensive unless you have an unlimited amount of money really I mean and maybe that's overstating it a moment imo probably that's probably right and but just how much we had no idea until I listened to this interview that was conducted by a website are relatively new and unknown is the Web site has a website and a You Tube channel Yeah called Vin wiki and Vin Wiki is a like a social vehicle history reporting platform as they describe it where people come on you know on set I guess and they describe kind of interesting stories about the cars they drive the cars they love the cars that sold things like that you know it's interesting stories they always provide you with the vin number of the car they're talking about which I think is a needle touch and it's just there are some fascinating tale there already and one of them really caught my attention. Was this is this one about maintenance about McLaren f one maintenance and the person that was interviewed this is I find this even more interesting is the guy the guy's name is Bruce Wiener and if you remember Bruce he's the guy that owned and operated that micro car museum or the I think it's called the microcosm Museum of medicine George or something yeah down in medicine yeah the guy that sold all of them I went through that final weekend to want to vote O's in an auction and he made a pile of money on that but the guy apparently has had far more than just many a micro cars over the years because he was talking in this interview on Vin Wiki about what what it's really like the crazy expensive cost to maintain a McLaren f one and I thought well this won't be you know too shocking really it can't be I mean we knew we know what to expect I mean we heard of the you know the oil sheiks that send their car over to London for a you know $20000.00 oil change that's not surprising and to be fair that is counting transportation costs well sure Ok so you know we've heard stories like that you hear stories of why I'm going to put you know new wheels on this thing is going to cost me 5000 dollars or $10000.00 or something like that. I thought those were you know kind of par for the course I guess for you know exotic car maintenance but when I listen to this interview from Bruce or by Bruce about the McLaren f one I was just floored I couldn't believe the prices that I was hearing and the complexity of the maintenance and repairs of this vehicle even just buying it was it was a year long negotiation we should say that Bruce Wiener is a car afficionado he is not by any means new to the game he has owned over a 1000 cars in his lifetime Right 1000 cars who while. I don't have much more to say about that than Wow Well you know you know a lot of them are the the mini micro cars but in this. You he'll talk about owning you know Ferrari's Lamborghinis that and who think so he owns other exotic swill so he already has a good idea of what to expect or so he thought yeah yeah so in this interview that we're going to have a transcript of the interview you can watch online if you like I'll tell you you know where you can go to find us and you can kind of follow on if you want to just watch it after those pockets maybe but we're going to you know read along through this this transcript that we have in front of us and some of these it is some of numbers just absolutely unbelievable if you want to hear in its own words Feel free go to you know even Wiki dot com and you can watch that either you know you can search that on youtube and find it as well but the interview itself is called How crazy expensive is it to maintain a McLaren f one and that's the exact one that you'll you'll find Bruce talking about this madness and he has already know long time listeners that I'm a fairly thrifty persons so I'm going to be honest there were times where I had to stop the video and go take a walk get a glass o.j. Or something cool off yeah I got a cool off a little bit so so let's let's dive in specifically this was a 1994 McLaren f one Yeah now it's a car we've talked about it is a special car I mean it was you got to remember the time they were talking time for you're talking about for this vehicle too so it's an it was produced between 19021908 now I think Bruce says in the interview here that there were 63 roadworthy cars that are known to exist and maybe that's the key here known to exist the production numbers I think are quoted somewhere north of 100 vehicles they made about 10506 so not much more than 100 the know they're made in England of course at the McLaren factory but you've got to remember that this is before McLaren started making you know the m p 4 series of cars and the you know the p. Ones and all those and this is like their 1st real for a into making a road car prior to this they were strictly a racing outfit right just making racing cars and that's a. But it so it took for them to make a road car with something really interesting unique and they used you know special built body you know they had a like a you know the chassis the body was their own but they did buy an off the shelf engine from b.m.w. They had the 6 point one liter b.m.w. V 12 engine in them and a lot of people believe that to be you know a strong choice for that vehicle and it was you know a powerful card fact it's the most I think the still holds true but I think it's still the most. The fastest normally aspirated automobile still in the world I believe that's the way they say it because the big Adi kind of well you got to pull its doors off later but that was with 4 turbochargers So that's the reason I think McLaren held the record back in late 1990 s. They're naturally aspirated Yeah yeah it was like 240 mph something like that you know when the big guy came along it opted to like 253 miles per hour but again that's for sure what Chargers you know their own test track that type of thing so McLaren is pretty darn close with this normally aspirated car and I mean we've talked about it at length in other shows you know I know we have a long long time ago probably you'd have to dig through the archives to find it but it's a really fantastic vehicle all around oh yeah the problems are not related in any way to the actual function of the vehicle no you know it's just keeping the old girl running it's a hassle it was a hassle I mean you wouldn't think so I mean I guess maybe you would maybe think be temperamental but maybe not. Boy I don't even know how to describe this van it's not the cars temperamental It's almost like oh boy I'm going to back myself into a corner maybe we should just get into this and talk about it because you'll you'll find out quickly what the real problem is here yeah and I'll set us up with a brief. Thesis statement a little bit of a fortune cookie for us. The problems often seem to trace to the fact that this is making that is a hybrid nature this is the Street Legal maintenance that world used to. And then some heavy race track maintenance influences Yeah sure it will describe that to me well he does a great job but Bruce does a great job of describing you know what this car is all about I mean really the nature of it yes because he's thought about this at length. So our story begins when. He he decided that he was going to buy one of these as Scott said 63 Ruud were the McLaren f ones specifically in 1904 Yeah I know you don't just go to a dealership and buy one of these either you know this started with a negotiation with a lawyer of the owner of the vehicle and his offering was $1200000.00 for the car he wanted to pay one point $2000000.00 and they wanted $1300000.00 so they go back and forth for a little less than 2 days and they just can't come to terms $1.00 is non-negotiable So they say a year passes an entire year and then exist Oh most Exactly year later Bruce receives a call from the lawyer who says if you remember me do you still want that car you still have that 1.2 laying around yeah and he says yes he does and he says he ought to take it he says Ok What's yours for 1200000 just as we discussed and if you want to pay and I said Mark that's fine so they where the money and of course he sent over a transport you know flatbed to get it yeah and the thing is he said Bruce as he didn't know much from much about the car really other than he did know kind of you know what the guy had told him about you know just just what he had told him upfront about the vehicle and he spoke to another person about a month before the purchase about it so you can tell who is still interested in it he was still keeping tabs over intervening year because you spoke to someone who inspected the car just about a month before he sealed the deal and. He knew that just in the factory it had some quality work already already done Yeah well that at the factory where they'll come into play in just a little bit you know why it was a factory but he knew the car was in really good mechanical condition right he said the car was actually born a silver car and the previous owner had repainted it orange which Bruce thought was all right you know he like. No problem it's a pretty interesting color orange if you watch the video you'll see the exact car a photo of it will appear. But it was sent back to the factory it was painted with this Jill coat I guess since in order to paint it in this gelcoat they had to do this unbelievable stripping down of the fiberglass you know for this procedure and he says you got pictures of the process but it took it took 6 months I think to paint the car and it cost him I think was 250000 pounds to repaint the car right so what is 250000 British pounds in u.s. Dollars you may be asking we also asked and it's $324000.32 for a paint jobs a little bit more a little more than $324000.00 for a paint job now just imagine that to begin with I mean that's just one your car different color that's just the paint you had just to paint something 6 months 6 months and you had to have sent it to the factory and that's where they do this process now I mean it's great place to do it but come on 324000 are north of 3 and that's a lot of money all right so here's where we start to get into the McLaren program that Bruce is talking about so he says they have a program with McLaren where if you own a McLaren You know back then was factory director customer you couldn't go to a dealership there I don't know middlemen you couldn't go to like Alex the Mad Men Williams local its northern dealership is still work so you know I'm tested and it's work and it's work and so yeah he couldn't he couldn't go to the dealership and drive it like you said you can go walk around and look at it right there no middlemen it came factory direct right so there really wasn't anywhere that you can also take the car to get service to. That's a problem and turns out there is an east coast in a West Coast service area in the United States Yeah and the other option is to send it back to London or sent over the u.k. And that's where they do this but a little crazy little crazy to think about doing something like that but I guess apparently it happens a lot but here's the thing. You know they weren't dealers to take for services cetera but they did have something in that way they could direct directly deal with you via satellite so they were hooked up in the cars where you hook up your laptop with a modem that comes with a car and then have a direct link to your car in the control should it right there from the factory wherever you are so as Bruce said he was in his garage in Atlanta Georgia and you know there mechanically going through his car from over in London you know at the factory kind of a cool thing it's a neat feature I think and I've heard of other you know other companies that are able to do similar things but think about the time frame of this this is back in 1000 now to say 19081902 I think it was right yeah 190221908 and they've implemented something like that in their cars right as credible and so there's another really cool thing that impressed me that I did not know until we learned about it in this interview and that's if you buy a McLaren used previously on McLaren McLaren will give you the 1st service and inspection free but wait guys you might be saying in a very reasonable tone. How is it free if they're based in London or the u.k. They fly the mechanic in to you that's so cool you know what a dream job you know yeah no kidding so the what happens is they fly this tech out and the person comes and expects a car for a couple of days and then at the end of that you know the end of that stay I guess the visit they give you a checklist of things that they think need to be done in the car and things that you may want to have done with the car so like it's kind of like here's here's what needs to be done here's a wish list maybe right so just for the sake of argument this could be something like. You have to have the oil changed Yeah but it would also we would recommend that you get the tires changed as well but the oil is number one priority sure somebody you know I get it right so you have these obviously you have the options right you have I'm going to do any of this stuff if you want to or none of it I guess if you choose to go that way. But here's the thing you can either fly back the factory or have it done you know in the United States or one of the 2 service centers as we mentioned the East Coast or the West Coast Bruce at this point he's realizing when you know the tech is out there and inspecting the car and you know going making a checklist and everything he finds out that. This car has rescore problems it's not just right it's not just road car problems and here's the reason why he says when we bought the car you know a lot of people say say things like you know like it's friends I guess that Ferrari is lame regimes or whatever and they say oh it's really you know it's a car that's made for the track but it's a road going race car you know that a lot of people say that kind of right it's a road car you can take to the racetrack without any significant alteration yet but a lot of people kind of twist it around they say it's really a race car but I drive it on that's right but it's not really true but in the case of this McLaren It's true you know the up the opposite is true of the other cars you know the super car exotics you know that we hear about from Ferrari Lamborghini where you know most of them not all of them but most of them are the case where it's a great road going car you know that they made as a row going car is meant to be street legal b. Can also take a drag as you said yeah exactly his problem is the opposite it's like they've tried to make this race car into a street car and that's the problem which might sound like a little difference but it's huge and one of the reasons it's so huge is because of the mate and so late on your on your daily driver whether that's a Lamborghini or you know a Karole you or Monte Carlo you know you know those yet. You know that things will wear out consumables wear out or break yeah that's the number one jinx right. So make Coke Ok All right well like you know Please send any any complaints you have about me to my complaint department Jonathan Strickland of how stuff works. But but the very important difference here and a lot of restrictions will know this is that in a race car components don't just wear out they can also time out. Time out so this is a big issue right this becomes a big issue for Bruce because he really I don't think he really knew that ahead of time these timed out items which mean that you know like for instance Ok he gives the example of the fuel cell he says the fuel cell has a lifespan of 5 years whether you use it for one day an hour or don't even use it at all in 5 years time McLaren The McLaren factory makes you replace the fuel cell in these vehicles and the cost well you know let's not talk about the cost yet what Ok So to add that up but yeah so the same goes with the fire extinguisher the fire extinguisher times out tires Time Out The same goes with the clutch the clutch is good for 2 to 3000 miles as what he says but they claim that after 3 years you need a new clutch Now listen here's here's one thing to begin with yeah 2 to 3000 miles and it's clutch that is it's pretty awful Yes not good at all next year if it's not but he's saying that you know that it's either it's either according to factories either good for 2 to 3000 miles or 3 years and again the same thing holds true whether you use it a day yeah an hour or don't use it all you've got to replace as soon as that stuff is installed the clock starts to kill it's a it's a he says what it what it is really is it's a timed out type of car I guess is what you see in this race car timing or timing out is what really starts to drive up the price and he says you know when when he sat down and figured out what this car would cost him if he didn't drive it a single day if you just parked in his garage was an astounding number wasn't yes it will to. 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And we're back in Ben we can left on a cliffhanger did how much would this car have cost Bruce had he just parked in the garage never driven a day you know just just left it there sure per year how much would it cost him who for. $50000.00 not driving at all no that's just adding on all the stuff and that's just kind of an average every year that he would pay based on all the time doubt items that we talk about 50 grand to never drive your car how about that plus you get that $1200000.00 up front you're paying for the thing so no he gets no he gets in this. I don't know it seems to be almost like. Sometimes a phrase we throw around as the Larry David situation so he's paid $1200000.00 for this McLaren as you said and he thinks to himself I've maybe got a good what couple years before this becomes a serious loss yes we start going start losing money on this on this proposition right now what a terrible thing would be I mean you've got a beautiful exotic car that you want to drive all around town to show off I mean arguably a work of art and just enjoy I mean just to drive it you must really enjoy driving that vehicle I mean it's something unique not a lot of people get to do that ever in their lifetime and he did mainly and almost soley to pick his son up from school he used it as a carpool. Picking up his kid in the you know in the car pool it is with the same he says you know he's not one to really like take his car out to the racetrack or anything he's trying to think of like what he can do with this thing so he wants to drive it but he doesn't have much more to do with it and pick up the kid at school so he's using a crazy expensive car and yeah I had to be the most popular kid in the carpool and now I know there is one thing we should point out Scott we can't gloss over this because I knew a lot of us are sitting out here and just heard you say. He does want to take it to a racetrack and you know to people probably just threw up our hands and said what you have this car not take it to a race track but he. Has a solid reason he has a he has a logic behind Yeah there is logic and he says that he's not broken a person that you know really wants to see them damaged or who are wrecked in any way he wants to enjoy the meal likes to drive his cars and I guess in a sane manner and and he says he doesn't really even trust himself he doesn't have enough faith in himself to to run a track in a car that he was not that familiar with in a racetrack situation he's familiar with you know drive an exotic on the road sure there's you know there's different things that have to do with exotics on the highway as well right and you know and around town you know you've got all the concerns of you know you know high curbs and speed bumps things like that in to deal with especially here in Atlanta lots be bumps Yeah and those metal plates that just appear overnight Yeah there's all kinds of things I mean just road debris in all kinds of things you know comfortable driving on the street but he's not comfortable driving his own cars on the racetrack and I respect that I mean if he doesn't want to damage or destroy his own vehicle you know that's fine so for him it's a question of safety in caution though there's something I was curious about folks in looked into it but I couldn't find anything solid yet. It's possible right for him to get if you really wanted to it's possible for him to get so training right oh sure McLaren specific but at this point we don't know if I don't know at least if he decided to do that but I do want to acknowledge that as a possibility is you know seems like he didn't look into it because we don't really hear about it in this right way this is a great story by the way this is it's interesting really and to hear it from him is also interesting so if you listen to the interview too because he is a funny guy to the way tells the stories great you know so he's got his he's got a Curb Your Enthusiasm moment this amazing astonishing vehicle. That has essentially become the world's coolest carpool Yar has like a grocery getter right Maclaren grocery getter and and so he owns it for about 4 months he's 4 months into owning it and he's already done the math which I thought was impressive where you know you got to feel that clock ticking Yeah you think you have 2 years so he has he takes McLaren up on the free inspection right and servicing and he gets the list Scott and I mentioned earlier. You know the list this is this is pretty shocking so he gets a list back you know with all the values of what needs to be done in the car and it's $250000.00 worth of work that they say it needs now this is after the cart memory bought the car and you know the car was service for months prior to him buying it in the factory in the factory was sent back to the factory and it was so big and 4 months after the service it needs another quarter of a $1000000.00 in work at this point and there's really nothing wrong with the car he hasn't he hasn't damaged he hasn't crashed and he hasn't you know excessively driven it and he hasn't driven hard on a racetrack isn't anything he's baby this car I mean we heard the tail carpool car yeah and he says he doesn't want to ride in a rig driving on racetracks So he's not like tearing it up right this is a this is a quarter of a $1000000.00 bill 4 months later let's get into it all right so. You know if this is how could it be a quarter of $1000000.00 Let's start with the tires McLaren tells Bruce they need to be replace I stop your Because this this will be one of the most frustrating things you've ever heard I think about automate as but McLaren has contacted him so yeah and we're going to you know what we're going to take a little bit of inspiration from Billy Mays because this is definitely Oh but wait there's more for sure all right so they say the tires need to be replaced and he says what because the tires are 3 years old but they don't have any missing tread they're not worn down so it's timed out issue yet because they you know they still pass the penny test he says there were only about 100 kilometers driven on it in those 3 years so they're essentially brand new tires Yeah I mean brainy tires but they've timed out because they're 3 years old right McLaren say and you got to do it racetrack maintenance you know and so he is as we said he's already familiar with the hidden cost of owning exotic high performance cars and so he drops this line that just baffled me sky where he said I've used to paint a $1000.00 a tire maybe on my Ferraris and Lamborghinis give me just show them my water you know I want to have that problem $1000.00 a tire talking about you know as Lambeau as in his Ferrari things like that right yeah. So he gets that he gets the thing and he looked at he looked at the little the line item for tires it's $50000.00 but wait there's more yeah it wasn't $50000.00 for the tires it's $50000.00 from the time you're going to remove the old tires and then set up the new tires because it's a race car not a street car so you know on a street car you can just balance the tires you know on the tire balancing machine put them on the car and everything's fine right that's not that's not an issue that's how they've done it for a long long time it's different on a risk are when you're putting tire. On a race car the only way you can balance tires in that situation are you have to balance them when they're on the car on a racetrack you know you have to take it around the track because you're not just balancing the tires you're also adjusting the suspension system to the tires and every tire is different so the suspension of the car has to accommodate the new tire that you're applying to that vehicle so it's just becomes crazy from this point on so again $50000.00 is not the price of tires for the car they're not they're not $12500.00 each right the tires are more reasonably priced and that oh yeah for the rubber The itself oh yeah but where it gets crazy this is what has to happen after that now we said that it has to be you know a just set up an adjusted on a track So here's the thing they start talking to him in this what he calls a lengthy situation on the phone nice because I'm sure he was maybe arguing back a bit about this and I would think you would it when you I would yes they say you don't really get to figure all this out because 50 thought for $50000.00 here here's the deal it was about $7000.00 for the tires themselves so they're expensive they're very expensive but wait there's more yeah there are a couple of $1000.00 to rent a racetrack in North Carolina that was near the b.m.w. Factory but wait there's more a couple $1000.00 to send the car up there and then bring it back in a close trailer so transportation. We're going to keep doing this already but wait there's more it's a $1000.00 for the driver so that he can even drive it himself at somebody else that's got to drive it and then yeah there's more it was a $1000.00 for the ambulance that had to be at the racetrack as well as everybody you know if anybody's rented a facility like that right you know you have to have an ambulance on scene and that's And of course if there's an ambulance s.b. Insurance Yes $5000.00 of liability insurance with his insurance company to even send it up there and it was a couple of $1000.00 of liability insurance to pay b.m.w. For just using the racetrack so that's 7 grand in. Surance alone yeah. But that's not it Ben there's still more there were a couple of mechanics that they had to pay to actually set up the car you know like on at the track side so yeah just the driver the mechanics the tires the j. Ambulance the track the run all the insurance all that it's techs on site as well it just became this enormous proposition as he said just to change a set of tires and he said at this time he said to be honest with you at this time this is when it started to turn me off about on this car rights because he also starts adding up the other costs that he's already aware of that are looming in the future right yeah because that list right when the fuel cell needs to be replaced he says they gave him a quote 100 intend grand for the fuel cell for Ok so it's the equivalent of a fuel tank in our car right you know and I don't know what a fuel tank I guess an average sedan would cost to replace but I can guarantee that's not a $110000.00 and. It wasn't just the fuel cell was also either shipping this car to B.M.W.'s factory in the Carolinas or sending it back over the pond to England yep yep and he says Now here's the thing he says you know what I'm thinking about this they're telling me $110000.00 for the actual fuel cell but what does it really cost because like the situation with the tires the transit is yeah sure you know it adds up so it's $110000.00 just for the fuel cell that's the part that's the part that's not the labor it's not the trans Yeah you're wondering like what what kind of number would they give me for this and he said they wouldn't give him a number until he actually was going to do it he said because you know as you know things change right like shipping rates could change for instance you know shipping a car is not a. It's not a very inexpensive and I don't think it would be you know now so and then he goes on to say I just said you know yeah I don't know because he says you know at the same time the fire extinguisher expired so you know it timed out I guess and he said the cost for the fire extinguisher which goes inside the car yeah it's just a regular old fire extinguisher $800.00 and he also says this is not a this is not a plug for Wal-Mart but Bruce points out that he could just literally go buy a fire extinguisher at Wal-Mart for like $10.00 Yeah exactly because they want to charge him $800.00 because the fire extinguisher was purpose built to fit in this tiny little hole that they had with this tiny little strap and he said it would basically basically be attached to the body and he's thinking you know if they're going to charge me $800.00 for a fire extinguisher The new for $10.00 you know what else are they going to charge me for a long way like this is a 250000 dollar bill that I'm looking at Yeah and I talk to them about it right and he's wondering you know 4 months down the road what's the next bill going to look like this car is just getting older at that I mean it's always something apparently Well it is because of that time that feature I want to make a new here I think is pretty interesting so. An issue only after hearing all this stuff about the fuel cell and hearing the blow by blow with the tire expenses which he does breakdown by line item. I fell victim to something that a lot of sales folks use it's a psychological thing called anchoring and it happens on everything from menus to buying a car buying a house because if we had just been hanging out and out of the blue right if you were bruised the blue I told you oh you mean you fire extinguisher it's a $100.00 you probably would have been like what the what is wrong with you where's the camera What's up with this guy yeah but after hearing $50000.00 after hearing $110000.00 here in a 100 is sort of like oh well yeah I guess well I'm already here just throw it in right because it seems smaller just because of the prices that came before so now hopefully I have helped everybody be aware of how menus are set up the next time you go to a restaurant it's a good tip been anchoring that's what they call it I think so Ok I think so and if the cowboy for 4699. Get the regular rebuy for what I like $30.00 just there are just $35.00 Right right right just like with I am a clever person just if Gene box I believe it's called Angry somebody write in and let me know that phenomenon or that technique in strategy is real and I believe it's called anchoring but this sounds right that's that's good it's clever so there is a saving grace here though hopefully because this is as as you said. There's a very important detail about the McLaren that really differentiated it to Bruce and sort of sold him on it and that is the engine Yeah the engine as we said before you know this is a b.m.w. Engine and he was thinking to himself you know how expensive Could it be to maintain a b.m.w. Engine really it's kind of attack. You know bullet proof engine is he said you know it's purpose built. It is not a purpose built for racing engine it was more of an off the shelf engine for b.m.w. But put into a purpose built race car that was created by McLaren So he's thinking you know you're going to have a brake on the engine you know that should be pretty solid right and he said you know the thing is that. Effort he said Well that was not really the saving grace and is as matter of fact you know the engine required just about as much Yeah I mean in care and timed out issues as time about pieces I guess or replacements as the rest of the car did so he realized that you know maybe the after about a year this wasn't the car for him after all this expense and all this trial and error and you know going through the getting a bill in the mail for $250000.00 and talking with tax and well Moody's a recommendation a recommendation finally he says you know he doesn't want to get the point where he's upside down in the car you know you don't want to know more than you know more than it's worth so at the time and I don't know what year he sold this or what your he had this I don't think it was ever mentioned but he said that at the point he said it made sense to sell the vehicle and that's exactly what he did because it wasn't appreciating you at this level of ownership. It's on its investment Yeah and like he said you know he's getting these bills and he's figured out the time out costs and you know the monthly cost even if he doesn't drive it and it just wasn't adding up he was going to be losing money but then after he had sold it oh here we go he of course you know he had buyer's remorse when he bought it I guess at that point and you can't blame the soul that he had seller's remorse because regrettably as he said the value of that car continued to climb and climb and climb and climb and climb because now those are 15 plus $1000000.00 cars and head he held onto it had he just put up with the maintenance that we just described you know in detail with you know the 110000 that you know 50000 dollar tires etc Had he just put up with that it would have been a tremendous investment in the end it turns out but he did not you know he had no idea that the market was going to do it right I mean who would know that that's a $15000000.00 plus car now you know what was it 510 years ago yeah you can't blame No And also also one of the questions I had on this was. If you own the car you own it outright so. Legally if you wanted to he could have just got the $10.00 fire extinguisher Yes You know I was wondering if that somehow voids some boy's award to you know where maybe it becomes like a non-certified McLaren at some point or something like that right which would. Affect the resale value Yeah I mean it has to be something like that I mean why else would you put up with you know a $100.00 fire extinguisher when you can't you can just get the 10 dollar version on the others before you go too much for there on the other side it is fair to say that there's a reason these high end manufacturers have these sorts of rigid schedules and rules and it's it's not it's not just like Bill come Monday out of people it's to maintain the cars at peak performance so that not just the owner of the vehicle but everyone who encounters that vehicle will still be able to say wow what a great car its brand image right so you're not going to see one that has you know flat black paint on it and you know pair rims the part pep boys right and some bondo Yeah can you imagine if you're not going to and you know that's the thing like you never know you never say never but that may have happened they may have happened had they not had a program like this for these cars and I know that was an extreme example but sure but you may find some that have you know questionable add ons and worse you know something that you know an unusual paint scheme that McLaren doesn't approve of necessarily or didn't approve of from the factory but you're right it's all about brand image I think and that. Anybody that encounters a car will always encounter the best possible version of that car at all times. Based on this plan they put together and I think that's what this all comes down to and I need to point it out I haven't called them yet but I'm pretty sure. I could call I could call Chevy and tell them what any crazy thing I wanted to do to my money Carlow and they'd be fine with it I think that. I don't think they would say oh no no no we've got to go shit that back the factory for us both least . The factories even around I don't know where the McLaren I've got money Carlos' me but anyway that I found that to be just an extremely eyeopening interview even for some you know a couple of us yeah of us that were kind of jaded I guess we hear high numbers for exotic all the time or you know prices and and we hear about unique or unusual hoops I guess that exotic car owners have to jump through in order to get things done sometimes but even so this one was surprising to me and I do encourage you to go to Youtube and watch this video again it's from in Wiki you haven't wiki dot com or you can go to you know You Tube and search been wiki in and find this McLaren maintenance story Oh indeed you did you happen to clock this they're based in Atlanta yes they are yeah fact yeah there's a well the co-founder is one of the guys that we've talked about doing the Cannonball Run Right right and I think you know he makes an appearance in a couple of videos as well he's one of the co-founders of vin wiki so you might want to check out a few of their videos there and see if there's something that you like a lot of and drew me and I ended up watching half a dozen of these you know in a day and they're pretty short I think when we just talked about was about 8 minutes long Yeah but they'll keep you you know excited about it and focused on it for the full 8 minutes I promise plus again that guy is a good storyteller Yeah and he is funny I think you mentioned that So this Scott this examination inspired me to ask a question for all you folks listening out there. What was your biggest Hassel car oh yeah I think everybody's everybody's had had a lemon or 2 at some point sailing maybe a car that you've owned for a couple years and then suddenly just everything started falling apart and it required you know a special you know a German mechanic to take care of it in from some cases or something like that yeah and some cars are legendary just for like you goes or Pintos or something and then that's fine too but also we got a point no man sometimes you just can't predict you know what I mean you know you know I just have like a Volkswagen that gets the spirit of some grim line in it you know what you said Volkswagen. Not just my car which is have a few issues right now and talk about those. But there was an interesting article about the v.w. Faten the kind of luxury Yeah no not really super car but a luxury. Hable car I guess for v.w. For a while and of the difficulties that the owner had with faith Anyways we'll talk about that maybe in a future Pike Yes Yeah fascinating stuff goes on with that one too and you can write to us with stories of your house a car directly at the e-mail address we'll give you at the end of the show it reminds me Scott speaking of listener mail we have a very special one for everyone that we teased at the beginning of today's episode and we'll get to it after work from our sponsor. Look. Back to the panel with the man his name's bucks and he's got nothing but you create a small jet or something to coax that band. Here trauma new for $99.00 Smokey pickers smoked bacon and smoke plus fries and a refreshing drink all for just for $99.00 Jack and lucky. Only a truck in the box limited time will present a special later. And we are back this is a this is a as we said a very special listener e-mail segment because we have a very well thought out response to our episode on car title loans which according to you know a lot of the feedback we've received from you ladies and gentleman was eyeopening in some cases disturbing but definitely controversial you know it's right now the person that contacted us his name is Fred when char and Fred are going to read his name because we read his name in the 1st episode right quoted Fred you know Fred was the guy that was in the in the Bankrate article and I think we described him as a person was I think we said trying to defend the practice something like that right yeah because whenever we look at a topic like this we do our best to present all sides of the argument right yeah yeah I mean and Fred you know he presented an opposing viewpoint in this article Yeah and we did read it we read through you know his comments here however after the episode aired we got a note from Fred directly Fred wrote us and said he actually it's a long e-mail but he again kind of. You know what let's just read through some of this and maybe that's the best way to do it but it's a well thought out e-mail and I want to make sure we spent some time with it and yeah you actually make some great points really and some things you mentioned some things that we didn't bring up in the park asked and I think it's always you know it's always relevant to bring the other side of the story as well so this is Fred doing so he writes and says hi guys 1st I want to thank you for coverage of the car title loans and attempting to give a balanced look at the financial product I also want to thank you for the shout out the pockets which is when we write him in the in the bank rate Oh he says I wish I was more of a better spokesperson for what I do so I apologize if I don't have the savvy guys have when you present your topics will there's no need to say that Fred I was she she really I mean this this email is well written out most were read through so. Yeah it does have the the savvy to describe his business and make some great points yeah it really does and don't you know what let's let's tell them 1st Fred is the president of a place called tradition media group who does business says max cash title loans and I want to make sure we got that out there so right we talked about max cash title and last time and he's the president of that. Says. It was a few points that I heard that I think were not intentionally misleading but misleading nonetheless and one of the things you guys did was basically say that car title on advocates put a spin on the product to make it look not so bad but what you fail to understand is why because after listening to you both is very clearly we're not trying to say that a person should never get a car title loan which will address shortly but you tried in a way to make people who provide the service as ruthless and as heartless by Cheney as make them sound ruthless and heartless by charging so much in the interest rate Well I mean I don't think we meant to make them all sound ruthless in her I think some are though you agree I think Fred would agree I think for you know Fred does agree in this in this article and here's here's one thing that I want to just point out really early in this we're going to read more this is and talked through some points but this is the same thing that we deal with when we talk about you know good mechanics versus bad mechanics and good sales car sales people versus bad car salespeople you know the shifty ones this is the exact same thing there's a few bad apples out there and those are the ones that always get the press those are the ones that make you know the headlines squeaky wheels and grease and yeah but as Fred is going to point out later that's not the majority of the people that are out there now so yeah let's let's take a look at this part where he mentions a few questions. Says if you rent an apartment and you don't pay the rent and you avoid the landlord what will happen and you just get to stay in the apartment and it just the owners just live with the fact they would be ruthless to kick you out great question How about a house mortgage which you stop paying you get evicted you get foreclosed Was it the bank's fault should they be considered dirty lenders or landlords consider horrible people so they built a home or put their money on it with the trust you would pay why are they not considered bad what about renting a car what if you rented it and never returned it or you wouldn't title to keep it do you think the company will attempt to get it reposed and he says you know if you are if we're assuming that those comparisons are unfair because those people don't target low income customers would be incorrect I'm paraphrasing here ha rental companies let you rent a car with a cash deposit landlords will of course write you a low income place and then he has something here that I think is really interesting about the math and I'm going to read that verbatim Ok but before you do that I want to point out that in our original car title loans story you're talking about places that were charging people 300 percent interest rights and that's not the case in his example here because he's talking about the interest rate that his firm charges right or that most of them I guess we should say most of them are moving toward as we said that we said a lot of states are trying to push for legislation to limit the amount of percentage rate in a percentage rate that they're allowed to charge for the they can't they can't charge these 300 percent rates anymore they're not legally allowed to they're good they're going more towards what Fred does now so here's the example All right so Fred says maybe you're thinking the do not get out on the interest rate let's do the math you rent a $25000.00 car for $40.00 a day just an example but I think you can see I'm being reasonable on the amounts I agree yeah 40 a day is 14000 $600.00 a year that would equal an interest rate of 36.8 percent how strange That's the same percent you. Good on the title alone for right now in many states and many companies because both have no prepayment penalties you are only charged the rate while you are borrowing the car cash then why aren't all car rental companies considered to 20 but he does say many states and many companies not not all and every state and everything that's the point I guess is that it's not all there's still some crooks out there and that's the people that we're trying to warn you against before the ones that open are up overnight and you know the little little tiny you know closet size storefronts and end up taking your title way that's that that's the ones we were warning you about is trying to be more fair and balanced about it I think there's still a lot of I think there's still a lot of those companies out there like the ones that I was describing the 1st episode where they they are price gouging I think that the move towards a more of the the business type or business business model that Fred has his title on company I think that's probably that's probably the push now that's what that's where everybody's going now yes which is good news and so he has an example from earlier in his life he says so why the spin larger car title loan companies have to take because car title loan lenders have over a decade ago started this with crazy high interest rates because they could because they could so they did they got away with it because they could He says when he got in the industry years ago he worked as a counterweight in and you know a little mom and pop operation running and he said he saw the beautiful car that the owners drove and cars I should say that the owners drove and it took him a while to realize that those cars weren't just the cars that they purchased with you know the money from the business these are cars that they had reported from customers and they did it in kind of a backhanded way. You know when when he saw someone lose their car he would notice that the owners would tack on a bunch of fees that were basically any number they wanted and then they gave the customer back what was left over as we described right you know from the sale sure but there was almost nothing it was always almost nothing so the owners were really coming out you know on the other end of it in a good. In a good way and he says he did extremely proud to say that that was you know this does little time operation that they did go out of business so he's happy that they were out of business because they were an example of you know the bad seeds right and then he also says that most of those businesses are gone the bad ones the greedy ones Yeah the ones that you know were the initial starters of the whole title loan thing and he said that all companies were like this some evolved into decent firms but it took some government slaps and some fees to get them to behave. And he said the bigger companies of course had something to lose in the smaller ones just decided to close up their doors you know that that the industry had begun to change and I didn't know there was a like a title change title I mean i.d.l. Title change oh yes I don't like a washing over of old to the new season yes see change as a better way they had to confuse title and title. I don't know all right well anyways it worked I guess but he says you know these these car title and brokers popped up and and a lot you know he was one of them and he's saying that it's kind of a game changer because now there's competition and you know when everybody competes the people that use the service win because you know they're in kind of a price war and that's exactly what happened people competing for lower percentage rates even though they still seem high and mean I'll tell you 36.8 or 38.6 or whatever that percentage rate that was we just read 36.8 that he mentioned that's still pretty high that's a high percentage rate if you buy a car or anything really I mean or have a credit card or whatever it's really high but it's not 300 percent so it's a move in the right direction I guess but again the customers had an option of who they wanted to choose and you know they had you know a broad spectrum of rates and different programs and you know it was for people who own the business he said I think he said this is it I can emotionally stressful time for them and he wants to point out that you know there's a big need for this financial product and he says you know to be clear that one point. You needed was a clear car title and he says oh I'm sorry not cleared for Hell just a car title right does have to be clear and the lender would pay off the old debt and incorporate that into the loan which is still a practice for most companies and he said you had to prove the ability to repay this and what that meant is that you needed to show that your current income would handle the loan amount and if that is something relatively new but it's highly enforced in the industry now and there's a there's another part that you brought up which is. Which pertains to the statistic that we pulled in our episode where he says. 80 to 90 percent of people who get those loans or are paid off and I actually return later to get another because we toward the ends of our episode looked at a couple of polls about people who had participated in or were currently participating in a car title loan that's right and remember when you read those numbers and I said I thought it would have been the exact opposite 1st percentage of what you just read me because it seemed like everything we'd read up to that point about them you know had been all about price gouging all about you know the underhanded tactics that some of the bad ones had pulled in the greedy ones but he is saying that you know 8090 percent come back for another one they pay them off successfully they have repeat customers for paid off loan you know for loans that do pay them off. And you saying that you know what happens a lot of times is that you hear all the grumbling the griping from people that are upset with car title loan companies because he said and this is should be no surprise anybody the Internet has helped spread the word faster than it ever would have you know just a lot around town I guess and that you know this probably goes back to this is my own words here this probably goes back to you know a dissatisfied customer is more likely to complain about that in print or to somebody than a satisfied customer right isn't that kind of the saying oh yeah you know you want to happy customer never comes back and says What great service and and promotes the company it's always the one that's grumbling about bad service that you read about or hear about they're anxious to get online and spread the word that's what's happened with car title loans is that people that you know have you know the spend their fault they haven't paid back the loan or you know they you know bad situation whatever I mean I don't know what happened to every individual case of course but someone can pay off the car title loan they get the car repo do they're going to spread word that you know this that this car title loan company is the real problem it's not them for not. Upholding their end of the deal sewers you know there's a port here. I want to quickly read forbade him with you here you know want to hear what you think about this folks is is this about the 5 types of people that yeah Ok he says who does take a car title loans someone who just had a loved one die and they need money right now for the funeral parents who just got notice that their kids' tuition is due and if they don't pay their son or daughter will have to miss a semester a spouse who just found out they need bail money or a lawyer because their partner got arrested a real estate agent who just sold a house but the escrow is not close for months so they need cash to that happens it's the person just got over a major illness and is just returning to work and needs help to they're back to normal so it's not the low income person as you would think because rarely does the low income person already have a paid off car worth enough for a car title loan it's the average American worker and then this this made me laugh if you're listening he says You mention the people with Tesla's you know I could title loans yet we just did one today no mention the high income people do not get these yet they most certainly do because they know they can pay it off quickly while you are correct that there are companies out there which compound the problem to this day there are many that it's a little work to find the good ones but they just I just do not feel the bashing car title loan companies will go away until publishers stop lumping them in the group of payday loan companies who charge 300 to 500 percent interest and pawn shops who charge 120 percent interest and up Oh man all right let's look at all good points very good points and and the type of people he's talking about the 5 types of people that he just outlined right here I can see them needing you know a couple $1000.00 on the spot your new unit right now in but what I can't see I don't understand the still you you mentioned I think the Tess loan or not getting not needing one of the writer and then he says well we had one today and so he disproved us but I can't see someone that's considered a high income person wanting to go.