Serry to prevent that we're not going to be done as we're not going to be steamrollered by some Taliban campaign to try to claim a false victory here that's not going to happen Becky so all of an N.P.R. News Airfield Afghanistan the House Intelligence Committee says president trumps former national security adviser Michael Flynn is refusing to cooperate with the panel in any meaningful way as N.P.R.'s Ron Lucas tells us the committee is now demanding Flynn testify on Capitol Hill later this month the committee's Democratic chairman Adam Schiff says in a letter that Flynn and his lawyers have not complied with a subpoena that the committee issued in June for documents and testimony Schiff says the committee has given Flynn until September 18th to produce the relevant materials and it is commanding him to appear for testimony a week later the sharply worded letter is the latest twist in Flynn's various legal woes in a separate issue Flynn is due in federal court on Tuesday that is connected to his criminal case for lying to the F.B.I. About his foreign contacts that case was brought by former special counsel Robert Muller as part of the Russian investigators in Flint cooperated with Miller's team but his new lawyers have taken a more adversarial approach as the case moves toward sentencing Ryan Lucas N.P.R. News Washington the U.S. Coast guard reportedly has begun pulling trap South Korean crew members from a cargo ship the capsized off Georgia's coast yesterday and caught fire the golden ray vessel was carrying more than 4000 vehicles at the time of the incident the coast guard managed to rescue 20 people from the sinking vessel before the close the Dow is up 38 points 226835 the Nasdaq was off 15 points S. And P. Was down a fraction This is N.P.R. News. Happier child happier adult N.P.R.'s Selena Simmons deafen reports on a new study in JAMA Pediatrics that finds having positive experiences in childhood may reduce someone's chance of having depression later in life lots of research shows that adverse childhood experiences like abuse or neglect can lead to depression and other health problems later on Christina Bethel of Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health wondered about the impact of positive experiences she used a survey of adults in Wisconsin which asked questions like could you talk to your families about feelings and did you have non-parent adults you connected with we found that having higher counts of those positive experiences was associated with 72 percent lower of having depression or part mental health she says the findings are a reminder that even if it's not possible to fix adversity adults building positive relationships with children can have its own big impact Selena Simmons Duffin N.P.R. News the acting chief scientists at the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration says his agency likely violated its scientific integrity rules when it reprimanded an Alabama weather office for contradicting president Trump's remarks on hurricane Dorian Greg McLean's says the forecasters did the right thing in telling the public that Alabama was safe from Dorian after Trump said the storm threatened the state no issued a press release last week chastising the office today McLean said that release was political The Dow closed up 38 points to end the day 826835 I'm Lakshmi saying N.P.R. News Support for N.P.R. Comes from Warner Brothers with a new motion picture The Goldfinch a 13 year old loses his mother to a bombing at an art museum but takes with him a painting that becomes his singular source of hope the goldfish in theaters September 13th. Can Republicans and Democrats agree on how best to regulate guns the debate will reignite with Congress back in session this week the. Legislation because there are so many. So what falls through the cracks even when there are background checks on gun purchases that's on THE NEXT MORNING EDITION from N.P.R. News. From N.P.R. And Boston I'm magnetron Barty and this is on point in 1067 Dr Martin Luther King Jr went to Stanford University and gave what became known as the other America speech broadly speaking King talked about racism and inequality but he also talked about education he said members of the faculty of this great institution of learning the greatest tragedy of this other America is what it does to little children. That's Dr King in 1967 the year before in 1066 Congress received its 1st big report on American schools James Coleman's equality of educational opportunity report 737 pages of analysis charts graphs the data diverse driven approach of its time well that landmark report and the hundreds that have followed brought a new framework through which to view educational inequality that soon became known as the achievement gap well more than a half century later after idea after idea on school improvement teacher training universal pre-K. Desegregation money new curricula charter schools you name it the so-called achievement gap still exists so we've decided to take a look at this issue a bit differently over the next month we're going to take a look at ideas and approaches that are working even if they're only working in one classroom or one school and we're going to ask why does this idea work in that one place and more importantly what's stopping ideas like these from scaling up across the nation so this hour in point the 1st in our special series The 50 year for. Right solutions for closing the achievement gap and what do you want to know about academic inequality or the so-called achievement gap how do you see it playing out in your own schools we're at 180-423-8255 it's 80423 talk you can also join us anytime on Twitter and Facebook at on point RADIO Well today for this 1st part of our series we're going to really dig deep into what the achievement gap is where it comes from and whether we should be even calling it in the 1st place calling it the achievement gap I should say in the 1st place so joining us 1st today from Berkeley California is Prudence Carter the dean of the University of California Berkeley Graduate School of Education She's a sociologist who spent her career researching factors that shape and reduce economic social and cultural equalities in schools She's author of keep it real school success beyond black and white and coeditor of the book Closing the opportunity gap what America must do to give every child an even chance Dene Prudence Carter welcome to one point thank you Magna that thank you so much is great to have you and you know what I 1st actually want to start off by interrogating the very basis for our entire series here OK I want to ask you when you when we hear the phrase achievement gap what is it how do you define it. Conventionally when we talk about the gap we're talking about test score differences significant test score differences by race by a class by gender or we're talking about differences and college going rates high school graduation rates high school dropout rates but the I think the main the popular parlance is around test score differences and we've done so much research over the last 30 or so years on why it is that there are significant differences by race and ethnicity and test scores which are as perceived as significant predictors of how well how competent how intelligent as a student is and whether or not they are worry are worthy or mother meritorious of going to select colleges and universities and of course the the whole conversation is in that why question right but before before we dig into the I want to sort of take a little historical tour across the past half century or so because you know if we're just limiting our view for this moment right now around test scores I mean haven't we seen that in the seventy's or so that with certain test scores I'm thinking of the national education assessment. Program where the supposedly the nation's report card that there was a narrowing of the gap in scores there for quite some time wasn't there there has been a reduction over time and in fact when the last report card came out we saw some reductions and then we saw some some some constancy It just depends on what the subject matter is the rejections have have there have been reductions they have been declines in the Test it looks at 4th graders 8th graders 12th graders in reading math arts civics you name it so it depends on the subject not all of them have seen they've seen significant declines over time and in the since the last time. Was given we've seen some declines in specific subjects in certain grades but I think the big issue is that there is still kind of an enduring significant gap in the test score outcomes by race and ethnicity and in some cases even by gender Well just to correct myself here I want to say the names full name correctly which is the National Assessment of Education Progress I'd kind of Bumble that up beforehand so we do have persistent differences then give us I mean we all but over those 50 years though there have been different areas of education and society more largely that have come under the microscope as being drivers of those differences have we been looking in the right places. Well we know a lot about the opportunity gaps that drive the achievement gaps and I'm going to start and go ahead and introduce Yeah we know that there are there are myriad contextual conditions that actually shape influence effect researchers like myself have to be have to be very careful about cause ality but we know that there are a number of factors that are says he did with the academic disparities or the so-called achievement gaps and some of those we pay attention to a many of them we don't pay attention to because they require quite a bit of political will to move the needle farther because of the resources that are needed to to drive those changes so in the in the last several decades what we do know is that there are kind of macro level changes that need to be done like the big societal economic policies because those policies shape the conditions that kids grow up in in their communities their neighborhoods and and families then there are kind of message level like what's going on around in your immediate metropolitan area or your neighborhood in such that shape the kind of material conditions that can affect the wellbeing of children and then there's what's going on in your school so we know also that what happens in neighborhoods in terms of the resources in the United States it's the tax assessments tax dollars that actually shape the kind of resource or revenue context that schools will receive locally right and if you live in a neighborhood where there is high rental and low homeownership which are predominately and low income in poor communities you're not going to have as great a resource contacts or resource base as if you live in a neighborhood like the one I meant here in Berkeley where the homes the median cost of homes is what at a $1000000.00 and more so those are the radical difference is that we also know that would just shape the their media context of what revenue can go into a school and then you come down to the micro level of what's happening inside of the classroom with the greatest input which is the quality of the teaching. The teachers in the classroom the kinds of the the actual teaching aids I mean you can go into some schools in this country and the students don't even as you move up through the grades they don't have the fabulous labs for science or the dignity the digital technology the kind of curriculum is at a high quality rich engaging curriculum that is going to motivate and compel students so you have to think about this at multiple dimensions because it's a constellation of factors that really shape the kind of overall educational context that most children are going to have and what we know in the United States is that it is disproportionate in terms of the resource contacts by race by ethnicity and class which is one of the reasons why we see these are the various reasons why we see these enduring achievement disparities or gaps but to your point though exactly that that when we think about. Access to learning opportunities. As broadly as possible and as deeply as possible we have to look at this constellation of factors from the micro to the macro I mean I think even in the introduction to the book that you coauthored here you mean you write that while school quality is extremely important out of school learning and learning related resources and opportunities for children to live and grow in the nation's disadvantaged communities must improve to get significantly before we can realistically expect to see achievement gaps closed is that that outside of school part of the question that we have given enough attention to well we haven't given enough attention to it because the issues are so big and they're daunting and also they are politically charged so the research and drawn immediately from the work you mention the Coleman report that was a large study in 1966 but there's also been more recently one of the largest educational research databases from my former colleague down at stay. Effort Sean Riordan where he and his team of put together data from all the school districts in the country were test scores over 200000000 test scores and I think Shawn and his team have been able to show also quite strongly that issues like economic and racial and ethnic segregation drive the significant disparities So what do we do about segregation right when we live in a and of a nation where everyone cares about the freedom and the choice to live where they want to but we have to interrogate that why is it that we choose to only live around people like ourselves and we're afraid of cultural differences of social differences but we know that that economic segregation which is highly correlated where racial racial segregation is actually driving some significant differences in quality of schools I mean that's what the data show and so and that's a big issue so how do you change housing policy housing choices and then that leads to a connection at the micro level to about individual mindsets you know so we're talking about social psychological factors that are not these are not independent These were constructed in the history in the context of politics economics and history of racism in a phobia of classism in our society that have been enduring for more than 50 years so that's what I mean about the big problems then the easier thing is for us to probably go inside of the schools and think about well what can we do on a day to day level with teachers and students with a learning aids and I would suggest that we can have some absolute change it's just a bigger more substantive change that will be harder which raises the question though and I'll let you answer it we come back from a break though that that if absolute change can happen within schools but the larger societal ones are much tougher to solve fundamentally asking schools to do an impossible job if we want to close those gaps entirely so we'll come right back in here Carter give her answer to. 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You're listening to the 1st part of a special month long series we're running called the 50 year fight solutions for closing the achievement gap where we're going to take a look at ways to increase educational equity whether it's an idea that just works in one classroom or in one school or one district and what's stopping those ideas from scaling up across the nation we're at 18438255 it's 843 talk at this hour really we're really focusing on what the achievement gap supposedly is more broadly what the opportunity gaps are in American education and how that's having an impact where you live again where 884-382-5580 extension 423 talking since we are taking kind of a broad view this hour I want to listen back to President Lyndon B. Johnson in 1965 when he signed the Elementary and Secondary Education Act One of the most expansive federal education laws to date one of the linchpins of his Great Society agenda which of course ought to reduce poverty and inequality in the United States his President Johnson at the signing passion this bridge the gap between helplessness and hope for more than 5000000 educational deprived children were put in the hands of our youth more than 30000000 new books and into many of our schools their 1st libraries were reduced the terrible time lag and bringing new teaching techniques into the nation's classrooms with them state and local agencies which by the burden and the challenge of better education and we rekindled the revolution a revolution of the spirit against the tyranny of egg President Lyndon Johnson in 1965 I'm joined today by Prudence Carter she's the dean of the University of California Berkeley Graduate School of Education and Dean Carter with sort of Johnson in the Great Society efforts in mind here I think for. Member correctly in one of your books you wrote that when the United States basically abandoned Great Society efforts anti-poverty efforts that it might have locked in learning disadvantages. That were asking schools since then to overcome making it a virtually impossible job is that a fair assessment. Well I don't want to be entirely fatalistic but I want to be a so I'm trying to be realistic here I mean I think we have to acknowledge the power of poverty and disadvantage in our society and the Great Society programs that. The Elementary and Secondary Education Act which is now in its incarnation as the every student succeeds act it was prior to that No Child Left Behind where there stronger accountability for teachers and for schools and students right now but we're trying to hold them accountable without taking into account without fixing the various disparities in the context so you know it is the case today if you look at the census data where nearly 2 I'd have 3 children are youth under the age of 18 who are African-American Latin Milat next or Native American live very close to the poverty line and that comparably it's something like Not quite one out of 3 of white and Asian kids and so what we have going on in our society right now and my CO coeditor Kevin Welner and I have used this analogy is that we have some kids who are in this country exposed to a context where they're you know they're on elevators going at the rate of a bullet speed train some are on escalators that are where the mechanisms are weld or oiled and they're going and going and some are on stairwells with missing hand rails and broken steps and chipped paint and we're asked them asking them all to get to floor 12 high school graduation or floor 16 if you will college graduation at the same time and if the 3 different groups don't get there at the same time we're on average we call that the achievement gap but it's really really important to think about the modes of mobility that these kids are are exposed to in most of the black and brown children in this country unfortunately are still exposed to. Those broken stairwells that is the fundamental fact that's a social fact in American society and until we figure out how to make it more comparable we're really comparing radically different socio economic groups now I'm not going to be overly deterministic and people what we say well you just you know what those liberals those progressive they're always talking about structure and poverty and kids can learn it is the case that we have some kids who come from disadvantaged backgrounds who are exposed because they're fortunate to different constellations of factors they may get extra school support they may get into Richmond programs after school they may get what we sociologists call social capital so you have some to succeed and they actually may even get a chance to get on the escalators and elevators through various programs like programs that target high achieving high potential youth from economically disadvantaged groups the problem is scale ability you know so we do have some students who are who who come from those backgrounds and get exposed they even get to go to better schools through various programs but the majority of kids from these economically disadvantaged backgrounds don't and so you mention in your introduction about scalability that's a real factor in American society and it's a real factor because it takes resources we do know from analysis how much it could cost to really fundamentally reduce poverty the National Academy has just released a report on what constellations of social programs could actually reduce significant poverty in our society so that you have a more equal or level playing ground among kids across different racial and ethnic backgrounds Well Dean Prudence Carter stand by here for just a moment because this is the perfect time to bring in a broom X. Candy joins us from N.P.R. The studios of N.P.R. West in Culver City California is executive director of American University's anti-racist Research and Policy Center author of stamp from the beginning the definitive history of racist ideas in America which one. The National Book Award for nonfiction in 2016 and his latest book is how to be an anti racist it just out in August just last month so Professor Kennedy welcome to on Point Oh it's great to be on the show so you're I want everyone to hear from you today here because again like I have I like to question my own presumptions a lot as we think through Big Ideas on the shows so help us question the thinking around the existence of an achievement gap to begin with are we looking at it in the right way. So I think fundamentally when when people commonly think of the achievement gap and I'm saying when people I'm talking not necessarily about scholars but everyday people the types of people who are going to support policies or not they they typically think of this idea that black and white the next and native children are achieving at a lower level than white and Asian children and they are achieving at a lower level because there's something wrong with them because they're something they're not as individuals doing there's something that parents are not doing there that teachers are not doing and and so that's why you've had people support accountability measures for students and teachers but not necessarily certainly be willing to think about and look at these larger structural factors that are actually impacting what's happening in the classroom that Dean Carter talked about and so I think that's why for me I actually do prefer the term opportunity gap because that changes what the problem is and thereby what the solution is right and so we want to explore we will in more detail the various factors of what drives these opportunity gaps for sure but Professor Kennedy I mean we've had come through a generation of. Attempts at changing the system at school reform from the national title to local level that we're really focused on closing the so-called achievement gaps I mean I guess what I'm asking is I'd love to hear you speak more clearly on your views of whether or not the even the expression of an achievement gap through testing is is an act of racism in and of itself. So when people imagine the achievement gap and they imagine it sooner similarly based on the test scoring gap and then they imagine that the reason why black and white the next and kids are scoring lower is because there's something wrong with them they don't value education they're not hard workers that concept I would argue is is a racist idea is adjusting and there's these longstanding notions that black children and and black people don't value education that black people are intellectually inferior and the test scores demonstrate this intellectual inferiority empirically and it can't be denied without question you know in that sense the achievement gap is is furthering racist ideas obviously the art opportunity gap doesn't necessarily do that and so Dean Carter let me turn back to you here for a 2nd because I I believe that there are many many passionate extremely well intentioned knowledgeable educators across this country who have been thinking very deeply over the past many years about reframing this conversation in terms of the opportunity gap and again in a minute we'll talk more deeply about what that actually means but nevertheless though in talking about closing those disparities in opportunity gaps they often still turn to test scores as the measure of how well they're doing in closing opportunity gaps but I still wonder I mean is it conclusive or not if measuring outcomes generates meaningful improvements in closing opportunity gaps. Well tests are can be used as good diagnostics of what the problems are the tests are the symptoms they are the canaries in the mine in terms of the test score outcomes and so we can use those to say well what's going on here in this context what do we need to do what I just just cements we need to do and our country and here's the thing. If if these test score disparities were more random and not nonrandom and correlated in pattern by race ethnicity and class and gender I mean I think we would have different approaches but we can't ignore history here we have an accumulation of disadvantage we have different modes of ways of being in our society because of all the things that Professor candy writes about in terms of you know just basically racism poverty classism all the things that intersect so I think what we have to do is understand that test are important and there are different types of test some of them can be diagnostic about how we need to retool some of them but where the problem comes in is that tests are high stakes they are used to figure out how how high are resources are allocated across groups who gets in and who doesn't who gets access and who doesn't and then those things are stepping stones to other forms of mobility that ultimately have an impact over the overall productive and well being of our lives that's why these tests can be so dangerous and so I don't I'm am not talking I don't think any of us are talking about just throwing out test is the narrative and how we utilize the information on the test I'm Magna Charta Barty this is on point Professor Candy did you want to respond to Dean Carter there well yeah I agree and I think another sort of added layer of of the testing question is is the multibillion dollar test prep industry that obviously if you're a parent of wealth and. Means then you're able to get your child a private tutor or you're able to get your child into a test prep course and then that child is able to do better on that test and then it's imagined by society that that child is smarter is achieving at a higher level than another kid in your own class let alone in another school from another family that does not have access or the ability to hire a private tutor or send their kids who are 2 or 2 to a class and so that's the sort of monkey in the room for the lack of a better term that that we also must be talking about when we're talking about these these test score differences meaning what though that that we're not really measuring a closing of the opportunity gap we just measure it we're measuring other things that schools can do you. Meaning that when when we talk about one of the reasons I think one of the lies Dene Carter sort of mentioned that you have these direct relationships between poverty levels between wealth levels and in some cases test scores like one of the factors that that causes that is the test prep industry and the access to test prep courses and the access to test prep tutors and so I for instance I I talk about in how to be an anti-racist when I was a college student at Florida A and M. University and I decided to go to graduate school I hadn't done as well on S.A.T.'s so I wanted to do better on the G R E So I spent a $1000.00 on a on a test prep course that wasn't offered at my historically black university had to go to or an historically white university down the road and I was the only black kid in that car us and Russians I was a kid I was a college student but one of the things that I found in taking that high priced arm test prep course was that essentially the instructor was teaching us form she was teaching us how to sort of take the test giving our strategies of how to take the test which of course I utilized an intestine and my score was boosted $200.00 points and so it wasn't necessarily my my verbal at mathematical skills that were improved through that test as much as my how I ended up taking the test so I'm just saying that this is something that we have to take in because other black kids at fam you were unable to take this test because they hadn't saved or their parents weren't able to give them the resources to do so right well Professor Kennedy and Dean Carter hang on here for just a 2nd I want to get a call in before we have to take a quick break let's go to Valerie who's calling from Buffalo New York Valerie you're on the air. Hi I just wanted to say I was an elementary principal out in Angola New York which is south of Buffalo we had severe achievement gap in our testing scores so the parents and I put in a freeroll breakfast program for our kids and our scores. Dramatically increased over the next 4 years so nutrition comes into it so. Absolutely yeah go ahead Dean Carter Absolutely I had written down earlier and when we talk about poverty hunger kids can't can't learn that well I mean can you imagine how many children in this country actually show up at school and haven't had a good breakfast and we know from the science that a healthy milk can prepare it sustains you it helps with attention so I am not surprised and that's why we have to have a rich school lunch programs breakfast and lunch programs in this country and actually we've got a comment that just came in on our website on point Radio dot org about exactly this Brandon says much of the focus is on schools but when the environment and the rest of a child's life is difficult schools have a difficult time if kids are hungry they don't have access to clean clothes or are living in dangerous neighborhoods it's very hard to learn so we are talking this hour about the 50 year fight solutions to closing the achievement gap it's the 1st part of our 4 part series looking at ideas whether big or small that bring greater greater educational equity to the lives of American young people and what's stopping those ideas from scaling nationwide I'm joined today by Prudence Carter She's dean of the Graduate School of Education at the University of California University of California at Berkeley and X. Kennedy is also with us he's executive director of American University's anti-racist Research and Policy Center and we want to hear from you 18438255 that's 80423 times this is on point. In Indiana mental health needs were skyrocketing at the same time there was a chronic shortage of providers one Indiana Medical Center though has found a workaround for the are you doing today tell us psychiatry in my life see I married the Reese Kelly that story this afternoon on ALL THINGS CONSIDERED from N.P.R. News join me for all things considered this afternoon at 3.3. Support for K.Z. 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This is one point I made to chuck a birdie We're talking this hour about the 1st in our month long series called The 50 year fight solutions for closing the achievement gap and we're taking a look at ideas big and small especially some of the smaller ones that work within individual classrooms or individual schools that increase educational equity in America and what's stopping those ideas from scaling up across the whole country and I'm joined today by Prudence Carter she is the dean of the University of California Berkeley Graduate School of Education author of keeping it real school successes beyond black and white and coeditor of closing the opportunity gap what America must do to give every child an even chance I'm also joined by Professor X. Kendy He's executive director of the American University's anti-racist Research and Policy Center author of stamp from the beginning and his latest book is how to be an anti-racist and let's go back to the phones Rachel is calling from Middlebury Vermont Rachel you're on the air. I am a retired teacher York State. 12 which was a school for at risk students. I did find that what this gentleman is speaking about the opportunity gap is just that's what it is an opportunity gap students are not given what they need in order to survive in order to do well in a larger environment and by that I mean for example all my students read the New York Times we often contrast at the times with the answered and news to discuss bias all my students are familiar with Oscar Wilde Bernard Shaw Shakespeare these are these are things that are often overlooked when your key chain minority students and that's what I found across the board was a ritual where do you want to mean there are overlooked that they're not taught or they're taught so cursorily that they might as well not be taught OK because it's assumed that the students would not understand or care or be able to sit still well not sure well Rachel thank you so much for your call Professor Kennedy would you like to respond to her. Well yeah I mean there are certainly. Teachers who believe that black children can't learn at the same level as as other children and there's certainly teachers who imagine that fundamentally black children but more specifically black boys are fundamentally a behavioral problem and so to see them in that way which of course prevents them from from essentially doing their job but I don't want to sort of fundamentally focus on on those teachers as much as these larger sort of anti-black racist ideas that are mass circulating in our society that are used to explain educational and many different types of of disparities and and because we have so many disparities which route which come out of these policies that we've been talking about people explain them away by saying there's something wrong with these kids there's something wrong with these people and which then makes it hard for anybody to to teach them and to to have to to of course are hold them to to high standards and so you know obviously that that's certainly the case and I experienced that when I was a student as well growing up in the ninety's in New York City and you know Dean Carter what's your thought on that. As I'm sitting here and I'm thinking about I think what Rachel is trying to get at is that we do have various forms of many quality embedded even in their curriculum in the 8000 of the classroom when we do have to think about disengagement an engagement for our kids and historically in most public schools in many public schools Black and Brown have not even gotten their own history I mean I certainly know that many of us I didn't get a lot of my history until I went to college or to a selective college a it's just the way that we've built our curriculum around euro European ideas and history and culture and politics and so I certainly in interviews with kids over the years that I've done I've had kids ask me Well what about me I don't even see myself and what I'm learning in terms of history economics social science English for that matter so I think there is something there in math why we have a number of people a spouse in the value of culturally responsive education of critical thinking of being more expansive in what we mean by education well as good a DNS Hello who's calling from Miami Florida D'Angelo you're on the air how are you guys very well go ahead. I was just than I what you guys are saying. I really still. Don't There are still race who problems a lot of the issues do stem from economic which you can look at who Tricia are looked at as values a lot of parents don't have the science to lecture to school like previously with the screws just one except So now we can be accepted but the bars where we are in these places. You don't possess the knowledge are possessed funding to either her delusional thank you so much for your call Professor Kenny would you like to respond to him. Well and I think I think this refers directly to when Carter was talking about the relationship between economic segregation and racial segregation and outcomes and and so I defer to the encourage or. Well. As I mentioned earlier here's this here's a statistic that I think is important when you can think about how American U.S. Based schools relate to each other across metropolitan areas and such and you know it's it's for me one of the statistics as most startling that came out of the Stanford educational data archive with all $11000.00 plus school districts is that there is not really a school district where the overwhelming majority of the kids are poor or low income where their median test scores are higher than the national median that is so powerful for me to see that that there is so that doesn't mean that there are not kids who are thriving within those districts many of them are but the most affluent districts in our country have the highest test scores and asked that is become now a fact and the poorest districts in our country you know they have varying test scores but they're not many that go above the national average and so we know it's important when we talk about the opportunity gap to understand that it is a constellation of factors that are about economics that are that about how we treat each other in terms of making sure that families have their basic needs met in terms of livable wages health care all of those contextual factors affect children and I'm just going to put this one other fact out I did an analysis of the the international exams that we use the Pisa which compares all the countries in the. Industrialized nations around test scores and there's a set. Of U.S. Based students and other kids and I looked at the top 50 scoring countries and the United States is in the top 50 scoring but the countries in the top 25. In terms of their students were had much lower inequality then the countries in the bottom 25 in the U.S. Was in the bottom 25 of that top 50 group so I want I'm sorry it was in the bottom level of that top 50 group and so I think it's important as a correlation I can say is causal but it's important to know that the countries that really take care of their children that really think about strong policies they have better outcomes and we need to take better care of our youth in this country so let me ask you about that because I keep thinking about your analogy about the high speed elevator versus the brick of the stairs right in terms of kids progressing through life here. I mean I'm seeing some was reading some studies last night that were done at Harvard Steven Levitt and Roland Fryer did that at the beginning of life there's no children shown no difference in cognitive ability or they just don't but that due to these economic factors socioeconomic factors that you've been talking about that as soon as age 2 and definitely by kindergarten there's there are measure there are differences in testing already I mean that's why it's so much emphasis as people talk about early childhood care and education here but I guess I guess what I'm saying is like when you said taking care of our kids do we need to be focusing much more intensely Do we need to have every conversation about education be linked heavily to inequality and not and not ever have a conversation that's just focused on what can happen inside a school. Absolutely not I think that's why is said is a constellation of factors in that the things that many of us can control or feel like we can control is what's happening locally. What happens in schools in the classrooms but they are interrelated so we know that one of the greatest templates in the classroom for children is a high quality teacher and the and the kind of strong curriculum abridging gaging curriculum those are those are 2 great input right but so so even if you have the high quality teacher in a classroom if as one of or one of the callers mentioned it kids come in from outside and they're hungry when they're sick and you have a significant number of those kids those teachers are going to do as much as they can to impart what they know to share with they know but they also have to deal with the stuff that comes from the outside those forces permeate the school walls so they're not an entirely separate but OK so most people are saying well we're not going to be able to get all those big problem solved Celeste let's focus on what we can do so what we can do at the state and local level is to make sure that we have those basic health programs basic food programs and strong lunch programs high quality teachers is really important for us to start talking about teachers in the curriculum and make sure that is an ethos or a culture of love of learning where high expectations enough are there for all children well so Professor Candy let me turn to you here for saying so I'm to I'll take this a step further and say sometimes I wonder. I'm hearing everything that Dean carders saying and we need to address these issues with nuance and care but sometimes I wonder if honestly as a nation we just don't want to have the other side of this conversation about inequality about poverty because those are big problems that would you know if we're going to authentically solve them it's going to take some major changes in this country in perhaps we just don't have the political desire to do so but it's much easier to focus if you are a politician in Washington to focus on on schools and on teachers and what do you think. I think I think so and I think part of the reason why people don't want to have those conversations is because they actually don't see a problem in Seoul. Dean Carter mentioned how the highest testing the the high income neighborhoods are typically the ones that are that the higher testing and and so and those are typically the neighborhoods that have higher levels of of white in Asian people and so if you imagine if you've been led to believe that that weight in Asian people value education more intellectually superior and that they take care of their money better which is why they have more money if you've been led to believe these types of ideas than this massive inequality that exist is going to seem normal to you and so then when we try to have these conversations that say no actually there's a problem here they're going to respond and say no actually there's no problem here there's something wrong with these kids and that's why they're getting these these lower test scores and so I think that in order for us to have that larger conversation we have to take a more anti-racist perspective and recognize that there is not it's not the case that that white people are intellectually superior to 2 native or like the next people we have to sort of recognize that that the racial groups are equals which is a very hard thing for Americans to do because in many ways we've been taught that if people have more than they are more a magnet Chakrabarti this is on point but sneak in a couple more calls here Jan is calling from Bellingham Massachusetts Jan you're on the air. Hi Thanks for taking my call I 1st of all agree with everything I've heard I've been an education since 1970 and spent the last 20 years were really through the late ninety's the last decade of the ninety's and the 1st decades of 2000 working in school improvement and I travel to rural schools urban schools middle class schools but they were always school designated as having a problem and an achievement gap and we worked on all the things you're talking about we worked on curriculum we worked on school environment we got the parents more involved we did all of these things and a lot of the teachers were very hardworking but I feel having been through all that and continuing to watch it that we are doing a huge disservice to the minority students and the poor students by basing their achievement. On a standardized test. That that should be one level that should be something we look at right what I found was everybody's achievement went up as we improve things in the school yet the gap was still there Jan I'm going to I'm so I'm so sorry interview I have to go back as I just got 2 minutes left but you said something at the end there that I really want to hear Dean Carter and Professor candy respond to but Dean Carter go ahead I mean Jen saying there that even when additional everything was provided to school to students throughout a school the gap was still there I mean what do you think she's getting to getting at so I think in 10 has it that's spot on there in my opinion is that we have to separate out how we use test as diagnostics for whether or not for proficiency and whether or not it a child or student is ready to move on and will be thriving and and so far from the test in the kind of relative a comparative games that we're playing 3 out of the if it is the case that tests are driven by your socio economic circumstances your family background and we have inequality then we'll always have these relative gaps but if it is the case that children like myself like Professor Kennedy who came from a certain background you know we both were solidly middle class but I came from schools where they were not as strong our test are after 2 tests were not as great but we had a lot of potential and people invested in us and they kept us on the trajectory of higher mobility and then we were able to thrive and I'm more interested in that experience I'm actually tired of the narrative of testing because we know the test are innately not fair and yet we keep using that So my thing is how do we keep kids sustained on the trajectory of mobility and overall sustained good well being well you know hopefully through the rest of our of our series this month we're going to take a look at some examples in schools and communities in other parts of the country that are doing just that even if they're just doing it. Locally so on that note I've got to wrap up this conversation today Prudence Carter dean of the U.C. Berkeley Graduate School of Education coeditor of closing the opportunity gap what America must do to give every child an even chance Carter thank you so much for being with us thank you for having me and Professor X. Kendy executive director of American University's anti-racist Research and Policy Center His latest book is how to be an anti-racist Professor Kennedy thank you so much thank you for having me on the show and every Monday this month we're going to have a special series so stay tuned for that a magnet everybody this is on point. On point is a production of W B U R Boston and N P R. Point comes from the listeners of Boston and home advisors matching homeowners with home improvement professionals for a variety of home projects from minor repairs to major remodels homeowners can read reviews of local pros and book appointments online at Home Advisor dot com. 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In the fifty's and early sixty's in search of a drug that could be weaponized to control the minds of some experiments were covertly funded universities and research centers. Were introduced to. News in Washington I'm Jack Speer the trumpet ministration is declaring the president's border policy is achieving results with a drop in apprehensions at the border last month or N.P.R.'s Mara Liasson at a briefing for reporters at the White House Customs and Border Protection Acting Chief Mark Morgan said that the number of migrants arrested or turned away from the southern border declined 22 percent in August to 64000 the border crossings do tend to decline during the hot months in May For example there were $144000.00 border apprehensions Morgan said one of the reasons for the decline is that asylum seekers are now being forced to wait in Mexico for their hearings although the administration has tried to dramatically decrease the number of asylum seekers and refugees the U.S. Accept Morgan insisted that the U.S. Will accept anyone on humanitarian reasons that quote needs to be here Mara Liasson N.P.R. News the White House a European physician who prescribes abortion. 2 American women over the Internet is suing the U.S. Food and Drug Administration N.P.R. Sarah McCammon reports the lawsuit was filed after the F.D.A. Should a warning letter earlier this year since last year Dr Rebecca Gompertz has been prescribing abortion pills to women in the United States over the Internet through her organization called aid access which is based in Austria Gompertz received a letter from the U.S. Food and Drug Administration in March ordering her to stop anything you know actions to show you very far or it can form of intimidation that is quite severe and so I think it's very important and again a lawsuit being filed on Congress bath accuses federal officials of seizing some of the abortion drugs and asked the federal court to block any prosecution of gone birds or her patients the F.D.A. Declined to comment on potential regulatory actions but said in a statement that the agency is concerned about women's health and safety when using abortion drugs illegally obtained online Sarah McCammon N.P.R. News the Taliban says it is still committed to an agreement with the U.S. To end nearly 18 years of war in Afghanistan but the state of talks remains uncertain N.P.R.'s D. Deed says President Trump called off a meeting at Camp David after a Taliban bombing near Kabul killed 12 people including a member.