Battered over 11 rounds in their 140 pound junior welterweight fight trainer Buddy McGirt was praised for what he told his fighter in their corner after the 11 was. Sitting despite did Ossian's objections the fight was stopped on his way to the dressing room his legs buckled and he vomited several times he was rushed to a hospital where he had surgery for bleeding on the brain dosh of his survived by a wife and young son Tom Goldman n.p.r. News severe storms cut through an equally severe heat wave in the Northeast and Midwest starting last night 800000 had no electricity in Michigan almost a quarter of a 1000000 people in New Jersey lost power along with heavy rainfall and winds they were as high as 17 miles an hour trees and power lines fell on social media video showed flooding in parts of New York City deep enough to float cars and Connecticut a lightning strike set a private school Jorma Tory on fire the violent weather. A spell of cooler weather on Louise Schiavone n.p.r. News Washington support for n.p.r. Comes from n.p.r. Stations other contributors include the limos and foundation committed to improving lives through invention in the u.s. And in developing countries and working to inspire and the Mable the next generation of inventors more information is available at limos and dot org. If I see Hearst Corporation do you think credit rating agencies or pharmaceutical data for most people. Has predominantly a newspaper and magazine company which is fine because we love those businesses but the fact that we're in a lot of things tends to take people by surprise I'm a conversation with the c.e.o. Next on a market for Marketplace ahead at 530 this afternoon here on 90.3 k.z. 0. From n.p.r. And Boston I'm Meghna Chopra Bartie and this is on point there's a podcast for that and that and for that too and that other thing as well more than 7 100000 podcast to choose from and at least 29000000 individual episodes listeners can face podcast decision paralysis when it comes to finding what to listen to next Now while some are wandering wondering if we've hit peak podcast others are saying the industry is only just getting started Spotify is planning to spend $500000000.00 on podcast belated acquisitions Apple might start bankrolling original shows too so this our own point the Big Business of podcasts and you can join us is podcasting here to stay what keeps you listening or makes you tune out how do you figure out what to listen to when there are 700000 options and counting available and also what do podcasts bring to you that you don't get or you can't find in other media we're at 180-423-8255 it's 843 talk you can also join us anytime and on point Radio dot org or Twitter and Facebook at on point radio Well joining us 1st today from New Haven Connecticut is Nicholas Chua he is the proprietor of hot Pod media where he writes edits and publishes the leading trade newsletter about the podcast industry he's also a contributing writer to New York magazine and to vulture where he covers podcasting Nick welcome to on point as they go on it's going great it's great to have you know going to put a shameless plug in here for the on point. As well which you can subscribe to wherever you get your podcast Ok but Nick 1st of all let's just start with the this New York Times article that sort of had put the podcast world in a bit of a tizzy in the past couple of days headlined Have we reached peak podcast I just you mean you're the one of the most knowledgeable people about this industry what was your response to the Times asking this question you know all of the to exert a. Love that they Anything that are it's like a star response obviously touches upon sort of longstanding sensitivities and sort of questions of that people in that community have been having it is the piece captures the feeling for sure but the sort of underlying analyses of doing the pike as he has in a structured way was think about it sort of fact that it has more than one kind of participant in the space it's kind of the gods over a lot of technical aspects of it but you know for all of its sort of like shortcomings and the way in which it rankled some people in pockets community it did just her towards this feeling that I think culturally lots of folks are aware about and are feeling right now so what is it that what part of the analysis rankled the podcast community because you know from look just from the perspective of regular every day listeners of which there are millions of podcast listeners we just got all these comments coming in to say someone's name podcast remind me of cable t.v. $500.00 channels and nothing worth watching Ellen or spend says podcast like web pages vary in quality and usefulness depending on who's producing and editing them and Jane says I like podcast a lot but I agree there are too many so it seems as if you're right it's capturing a feeling so what why why were podcast producers rankled by it I think so let's set the question about why folks around go into sort of like address the structure reality of it podcasting to this state of nature of this medium is over abundance because it is an extension of the Internet specifically as an extension of blogging the whole premise behind the creation of the technology about 15 years ago is that it increases the means to access for people who previously could not publish audio to an audience or to the world and give them the means to do it and so much like us that Internet like the state of nature is that there's a lot a lot a lot of those things and so but you know the story of pockets in the past couple of years particularly past almost decade is that there's been to sort of structure of business and industry growing on top of this sort of like why you go system of people to. Publishing stuff and I think what we're experiencing what we're seeing right now is this tension between this sort of creator let notion that anybody can publish and that's the point of this medium and the sort of consumer centric sort of focus of this which is do things already on day products and people would like access the things that they feel it's worth to time and so it's a bit of a harder consumer choice up like system to navigate a universe of 700000 cast and try to figure out what's the right one for them and so we're in the sort of interesting transitional period for sure Ok well so I mean I would agree I think we've seen in other as you as you just said in other in other media this sort of life cycle of this burst of. Entrants into this space because of the democratic nature of any digital development and then the quote unquote shakeout that happens so is this the right time for the the shakeout to happen in in the world of podcasting it really depends what you mean by a shake up right so from where I sit and what I've been sort of observing the past couple years it seems that we're heading towards some sort of bifurcation that there will be a separation between caste operations and teams publishing podcasts that are very much oriented towards you know building a business around it to drive big audiences to drive meaningful audiences and to extract advertising as it's given value from it there is a layer of that for you know formalizing over the past couple of years and the question is sort of what happens to the other chunk which is this notion of self publishing of anybody having access to just being able to publish an audio recording out and maybe getting some listeners for it the thing is that technology and tool for self-expression and so I do feel that if there is a shake out or have you want to frame it it's going to be along those terms who gets to be in the quote unquote money making industries out of it and who gets to sort of participate in the sort of broader publishing part of it right so you saying that does part of you hope that will never fully let go of the idea that. Because someone talks somebody out there might it interesting. You know I I maybe it's by average of my predisposition or sort of the moment in time I was born in but I always feel that when there is more opportunity for more people to access potential audience it's always a good thing I think the fact that we have an abundance of maybe too many is you know it's a net positive because it allows people who previously didn't have access to do you know radio broadcast like if I have if I was a certain kind of person or if I have a certain kind of idea for a radio show an audio show on broadcast radio I need to you know go through n.p.r. Or go through Cumulus Media or I heard media and maybe I'm not the right demographic or I'm not the right kind of sensibility to fits of those gate keepers and so you know I take this over abundance over smaller option of access I mean yeah agreed but of course from the listen again from the listener perspective the question is who gets ever harder to find the quality content he know even as a diversifies as well but you know what Nick we've got we're going to dig into sort of the business and development aspect of the burgeoning world of pod cast but I do want to get your take on what it is about this particular medium so many people are are drawn to and in order to just kind of launch us into that part of the conversation let's just take a moment to listen back to serial of course which debuted in 2014 investigative journalism series the 1st season focused on the case of the 1909 murder. 18 year old hey mainly now serial remains one of the most listen to podcasts in the world with Seasons one and 2 downloaded more than 340000000 times and here's a moment from season one. Only. From This American Life b.c. Chicago serial one story told me I'm sorry. So that's from season one of cereal and of course the very familiar sound driven by the wild success for many many years of This American Life and be easy in Chicago and we're going to talk about the very commercial podcast as well we're not going to just focus on the public radio sound here but but Nick what was it about podcasts like cereal that really sort of blew open the doors to this medium and Drew and drew people millions of listeners it. I'll give you 3 reasons of this answer one is you know radio you being a practitioner of it it's still a very powerful medium right but the sort of added edge here is the fact that as a consumer you can listen to a narrative like that or a radio sort of or an audio show like that on your own terms you can go back and forth you can start episodes and stuff it whatever you like so that just on a baseline level is the thing that's really important for that kind of reader experience and specifically that kind of narrative experience the 2nd thing here is you know dare is a way in which just the audio experience plays on the human imagination there is a way in which just the sound of it triggers an emotional relationship the key buzzword is like intimacy but there's this notion of it's a participatory medium in which the consumers minority listeners mind has a sort of create the images for themselves and that's that's really powerful but I think the real at least for me personally it's a feeling that this a media product is just for me it's always it's this feeling that like I am in this sort of story I'm in this crowd of people talking I mean this sort of narrative experience of telling me a story and it's just me and there's something very personal that feeling or something for a $1.00 to $1.00 and it sends and in contradistinction to the we broadcast radio works in which it's one to many and so all those things put together kind of comes in this package of something really really human and really really personal and I think that's the sort of through and through a lot of the of the popular pod cast that we see kind of blow up interesting to one to one versus one to many They're a fascinating analysis Ok So Nic stand by here for just a 2nd because I want to bring into the conversation now Gretta Come on she joins us from New York She's founder of transmitter media a creative podcast company She's formerly executive producer and head of the new show development at your wolf and mid roll media other project podcast developers and she launched a number of cod podcast those companies as well and she joins us again from New York so good a. Welcome to you hi how are you I'm doing very well so you you are a producer of podcasts here what do you make of this moment that the industry finds itself in is it is it sort of on the cusp of an even bigger breakthrough even more explosive growth or are we at the peak stage I think we're at still a beginning stage like Nick says I think we're still about to see bigger and better and more I can't tell you how many inquiries I get from folks especially now in t.v. And film who are really interested in getting into pod casting I think we're seeing many more media outlets wanting to get into pod casting a big part of our business the transmitter is partnering with other media organizations who have stories that they want to put out into the world lots of brands want to get into pod casting I think that in general there is a ton of ambition I think that the amount of shows that get the time and the space and the funding to go really big is still small comparative to the number of shows that are coming out perhaps in like a faster weekly basis but I think we're still at the beginnings for sure Ok well we'll talk more about where the industry may go next so so Gretta and Nicholas Chua stand on the stand by here for just a 2nd we're talking about podcasting it's more popular than ever and more than a 3rd of Americans over the age of 12 say they listen to podcasts there are hundreds of millions of dollars being invested in the industry now including from very big names like Spotify and half full and we want to hear from you are you have a regular listener to a podcast What are your favorites What draws you in about it or you just overwhelmed by the hundreds of thousands of choices already out there were 804238255 this is on point. Boris Johnson has the confidence of Donald Trump he's a lot like Donald Trump in many ways unconventional unpredictable some say unorganized Orishas in between me if you really is. And if it becomes Britain's Prime Minister Barak Johnson brings those qualities to managing Brecht's that and a crisis with Iran it's on the world join us for the world Tuesday evening at 6 o'clock on 90.3 k. Is e.u. Support for Casey you comes from cosmic a Santa Cruz based social purpose marketing agency cosmic provide strategic branding design and storytelling to help social purpose brands maximize their impact cosmic helping social purpose brands move humanity forward designed by cosmic dot com and from Big Creek lumber a sustainable local lumber company specializing in locally grown and milled Redwood Karine a full line of building materials needed to complete construction projects from the ground up Big Creek lumber dot com. Support for on point comes from a lifeline lifelike with Norton reminds consumers that cyber criminals can steal identities sell personal information on the dark web and even infect mobile devices with malware learn more at Life Lock dot com and an end to pharmaceuticals of Boston developing treatments for viral infections and liver diseases world hepatitis day is July 28th you can learn more at an aunt or a n t a dot com. This is 1.0 magnitude we're talking this hour about the booming world an industry of podcasts and you can join us 180423255 that's 80423 talk I'm joined today by Greg a comb She's founder of transmitter media a creative podcast company she's with us from New York and in Nicholas Quah joins us as well he's with us from New Haven Connecticut he's the proprietor of hot Pod media where he writes edits and publishes the leading trade newsletter about the podcast industry and Nick and Greg have got lots of comments coming in here online from fans of podcasts on Twitter Joe Cole says podcasting has opened up a space for some great learning opportunities I can get weekly content from experts in each fields an area in public he says I listen to podcasts almost every day I can listen to things I'm interested in that aren't offered on my local radio or anywhere else that allows the programs to also be portable so you've been in this business for a while and I just want you to sort of pick up a thought that we left off on before the break here how much has it changed in just say the past 5 years about pot podcast production Oh I think it's changed enormously I mean I think you point to cereal as a sort of watershed moment in the industry and I think that we've seen a greater hunger for serialized for deep storytelling I mean there is also a deep hunger for what that listener commented on which is a chance to make education and we want to learn we want to hear stories that help bias enrich our lives and be able to operate in the world in a way that we didn't consider before and we make a variety of those kinds of high Cassatt transmitter but yeah I think. That we're seeing a great a greater investment all across the board and high quality pipe casts what what's your thought about that. Yeah so I think what we've seen the past 5 years in particular if you would do want to use 2014 it's sort of like the sort of pivot point where there's been a lot more. Talent coming through the space that previously was in there and there's a lot more people who are new to this space that's taking more chances critically so that a problem for asian of a bunch of different formats and sort of the improvement of a lot of existing formats comedy parkas have gotten sharper better narrative park has been pushed to tackle stories that are more interesting and more interesting ways and you know they're also sort of previously like audio drama of sort of getting its its moment to shine and it's one way to have a revival in which there's a community of fiction podcasters now really sort of testing itself and pushing and trying to figure out what this new version of telling fictional stories over audio and radio sounds like and so. I think part of this is a result of the increased attention to the space and it's a signal that if you have an idea if you have a certain talent that you want to sort of work on this is a space that do it and I think and I think the past 5 years has been a reflection of that and I'm particularly interested in the resurgence of the rebirth of audio drama through podcasts we just in my in my household we just listened to an 8 part. Podcast from from gimlet media for kids essentially is like a kid's kid's audio drama and my my my offspring's were wrapped and I just thought you know this is harkens right back to the Golden Age of any of radio in the twenty's and thirty's where people were gathering around the radio to listen to dramatic storytelling but it's being done you know through through our phones now so it does seem to be quite. A rebirth or sort of reconnection with a fundamental storytelling medium that has been in existence in the United States or definitely worldwide for some time so do you see this as really capturing a completely new generation of people who may in a few days I hate to say this if you view we years never even turn on a regular broadcast radio because there's so many so much podcast content. I think that's very possible I mean I think anecdotally I hear that from people who as Nick said earlier you know we can take these stories with us wherever we go listen however we'd like pause and restart or rewind if we want to hear something again and so there is a way in which it's very personal experience and you can you know interact with it in a deeply personal way and so you know I think there's a reason why people often think of podcasts hosts as their friends that they want to hang out with and spend time with and it's because you have that he deeply personal access Well let's go to the callers let's go to Maynard who's calling from Jacksonville North Carolina Maynard you're on the air I am are you doing well what's your favorite podcast it would have to be cereal. And why. There's something really engaging about it. I just enjoyed listening to it while I was working and it was like I could take multiple information at once while just doing like the most simple task stuff like that and it really just paints a picture in your head and you just think about it more it's only gotten better with each season let's go on that's going on you actively waiting for season 4 with bated breath. Thank you so much for your call Nicola do you have any insight as to when Season 4 might come out. Will be heard rumors but I cannot confirm it behooves you to. Go to Derek is going to Madison Wisconsin Derrick you're on the air Howdy Hi Go ahead. Yeah Adam I wanted to say real quick because you guys are talking about whether or not it's going to go away and I just kind of see this thing kind of like You Tube where there's such low overhead it's so easy to produce to get started up that I got imagine it's just going to keep kind of growing in that that way and and the reason that I love pod cast and I going to listen to me like over 10 years now is because of the long format like that you can kind of really get a deep dive into one subject that you never knew you would care about and it's such a good job of humanizing it because you hear voices you kind of take away your preconceived notion of how someone looks or how old they are and you really to just appreciate the story and it just really kind of takes you to a different place well there thank you so much for your call we got a lot of people who want to talk about punk Yes let's get one more here Roland is calling from Nashville Tennessee Roland you're on the air and that yeah I was kind of a kind of throw a couple of suggestions out there and make a comment on the state of pockets and I started listening with serial season one which is a great place to start if you're new to park us think Season 2 and season 3 not so much but derogate spirit and stuff you should know those are good and outside of true crime and then if you're a true crime fan really pod casting is your best friend yeah dominates the space Ok so so Roland stand by here for just 2nd because you mentioned Joe Rogan he has the the Joe Rogan experience a wildly successful podcast and video podcast launched back in 2009 the keys a comedian mixed martial arts commentator has recorded as far as I understand more than 1300 episodes so let's listen to a moment from his podcast where he spoke with tech entrepreneur Elon Musk you must understand there's not a whole lot of human beings like you you know that right too you're not a demon and yes to a chimp like me. We're all chimps Yeah we are one notch one notch above a chimp some of us are a little more confused when I watch you doing all these things oh I could. Have all this time and all this energy and all these ideas and then people just let him do these things because I'm an alien that's Joe Rogan talking to you on Musk they're so so Roland what do you love about the Joe Rogan experience by I guess like for one Joe is great not interrupting his guest less the person talking as long as there is no set time when many other out so some of his episodes go even 5 hours and you get such a great array of guests like from you I must. Thank you I must try to go away but from you I must Alex Jones to Jack Dorsey to anybody you can think of there you there have been on Joe Rogan targets are going to go on there eventually because he is dominating the space outside of like I said True Crime Yeah well Roland thank you so much for your call so Nick while we turn back to you. There have been some. Critics of podcasts you say there are too many of just sort of the chatty type podcasts out there but ones like Joe Joe Rogan spot yes they're a very successful and you heard you heard the listener there saying that he loves them even when an episode goes for 5 hours so what is Joe Rogan doing right that makes it so popular. Well part of it I think he was a beneficiary of being an early adopter he started a show like in 2009 which is right after the economic crash and so there was this there is I think there's this cohort of pod cast interviewers or part has like the personality talking heads that started to show during during that era so we came out from that time some insiders pockets during that time and so a lot of the sort of effects of this is just right he's been like making these episodes for almost 10 years and you know there's a community building aspect to it that comes of purpose systems he's also just a very frank competent interview and of and very aggressive in a way he thinks about it because community he's a very very specific kind of interviewer and person definitely he's also a flashpoint for criticism for to kind of guess he brings on in the kinds of communities he appeals to and they're you know it's one of those star qualities that has come very very complicated layers to it so the combination of like you know start power and you know longevity there it's a really interesting case that he I guess the question is could Rogen have experienced this kind of success in another media or is there something about podcasting that he that he's really maximizing I mean there's something about that specific me and because there isn't a structural time limits to the length of the universe he can go and he goes on he has essentially full control over that this is the nature of the interview he wants to put out so I think and also you know the video podcast do a fair bit of viewership for them but I think the me Jordi of the consumption comes through the audience format and I think it's because you don't really have that visual layer with that kind of in interruption interrogates your your experience of listening to the conversation at interviews you know heard a caller Roland say that he liked that Joe didn't interrupt people and I get e-mails every day from the listeners as many you know are people too much and let it be known right now. Because I have to answer to a clock as well Big Lie radio but the grid can let me turn back to you here because we can talk about the content and the different types of content the different styles the story telling for quite some time but I want to return to the fundamental question of exactly how this industry is booming at the moment because it's booming in the number of cars of podcasts but a listener named in Barry says how booming financially is it though so talk to me is are you are you at transmitter media able to run a profitable company yes we are I think the best. Equivalency to make is to the film and t.v. Production business so I think you know you look you ask you whether you know the production company that made a rival right like they're putting a lot of resources there storytellers they have a team that is writing that is editing that is doing post-production that is exactly the same thing that we're doing you know I started this business gushed you know half years ago and it was just me and I have built very slowly very intentionally You know we didn't take any investors were just responding to the demand in the industry and doing it in what I think is a really sort of intentional way so yeah I think. It's my responsibility now to the folks who work for me and who produce for me to maintain are responsible and profitable business I mean are we like millionaires No but. But we're doing what we left and we're able to do it every day and we're able to work with people who we enjoy working with and whose stories we really want to tell and is the is the income is the money coming through you said you do it sounds like you do some branded content or branded podcasting or is it is it advertising or sponsorship in your in the other types of stories that you tell it since this is such a still relatively new and growing business where are the sources of income coming from yeah so there are multiple Right now we're mainly focused on client podcasts although we're starting to open up our production to original and house shows in the coming year so the stuff that we're making right now is mostly funded by the folks that we're working with so we work on a pipe cast with Ted and they fund the production of that pod cast you know we've made a podcast for Spotify we work at the New York Times and so they pay the production costs in the future when we add original shows that we own that we conceive of and create then yes then we'll move into the model where we're seeking advertising to help fund the production of those shows so both of those and yes and we do you branded podcasts we do a few and we treat them the same way that we do our storytelling and our media partner podcast Ok so so Nichol then give us your take here about the financial moment that the industry is finding itself and because at the very beginning was show just hopefully to grab some people's attention I mentioned that Spotify is spending hundreds of millions of dollars acquiring podcast companies I mean is that is that evidence that the big players in media are finding podcast as a as a place for a worthy place for investment you know so to address this question as I talk about like the primary business model that most Park has operated in this point in time most Parco sorer. Monetized by advertising there was a there is a annual report conducted by that sort of states that in 2018 podcasting as a whole brought in about 470000000 in advertising revenue and that's up from about $300000000.00 from 2017 and it's projected just pockets of enticing alone projected to beat a $1000000000.00 in 2021 and there is some thinking that you know advertising will remain the sort of predominant way that podcasting makes money moving forward in time but we also see sort of secondary business models can pop up live events notoriously is getting really important I think that was an excellent piece that came out a couple weeks ago citing data from a platform that sells tickets to live events including pocket live events. Like podcast life events ticket sales grew like 2000 percent over the past 5 or 6 years or something like that and there are a couple of explorations over whether it can be subscription models problem to implement it for podcasting And you know a lot of the successful subscription or direct support models are largely just like specific to specific shows and it remains to be seen whether we'll see quote unquote Netflix for podcasting at some point of time in the future all of which is the seder is a lot of money movements just a lot of innovation around people thinking about the way to make money with this and you know as more podcasts qualify into this sort of monetizing space republish the a lot Modi's experiments play out over time but it seems to me that there's no reason why these different models can't co-exist right that's what we're seeing in streaming video because most people if they might have a Hulu or a or Netflix or Amazon account but they still may also go by the district discreet seasons of programs as well I mean I'm wondering do we have a sense at this point in time make about how much people would be willing to pay for podcasts. I think there is a willingness to pay for specific pockets because you feel very connected to the personality because you have a very specific task went to that crew of creators or that shows So life events or Life podcast shows are a very good expression of this merchandising is a very good question because also more than a few podcasts that are primarily powered by patron which is sort of a direct support or donation model the question whether people would pay for one service that has x. Or y. a Number of podcasts of certain kinds of podcasts remains to be seen there are a couple of times that going on right now. Is one that's been that's very very deeply venture backed that's playing itself out there's a company called fit your premium and so we'll figure it out over time I think Ok so great a we've got to take a quick break but when we come back we'll ask you about your opinion about subscription models for a podcast but we are talking about the podcast industry it is a booming right now as I mentioned earlier in the show more than a 3rd of Americans over the age of 12 say they listen to podcasts there are 700000 of them out there it's a global phenomenon as well we want to know what your favorites are what you think of the podcast world 180-423-8255 that's 843 talk this is on point. When Robert Mueller resigned a special counsel he said he had nothing to add to his report about interference and obstruction the report is. I would not provide information beyond that which is already public in any appearance before Congress and yet will now appear before Congress what his testimony means for possible future investigations on the next morning edition. Morning Edition when state until 9. Support for k.z. You comes from street light records on Pacific Avenue in Santa Cruz in South Bascom in San Jose street light buys in trades L.P.'s cd's movies and more open every day Street lead Records dot com and from shoppers corner market on the corner of Branson forte and So Cal in Santa Cruz shoppers corner market offers a selection of fine wines a variety of organic and conventionally grown produce and a full service butcher shop on line at Shoppers corner dot com. The next fresh air sleep disorder specialist guy Leshner author of the nocturnal brain he's seen it all insomnia night terrors narcolepsy sleep walking sleep eating sleep driving and some that caught sexsomnia We'll talk about his cases and discuss the growing body of research on our slumber join us. Fresh air Tuesday afternoon at 2 o'clock and again in the evening at 790.3 k a z you. Support for on point comes from Home Advisor matching homeowners with home improvement professionals for a variety of projects from minor repairs to major remodels homeowners can read reviews of local pros and book appointments online at Home Advisor dot com and Geico offering motorcycle and r.v. Insurance more information available on motorcycle and r.v. Insurance at Geico dot com or 180947 Aagot. This is on point I'm making Tucker Bertie We're talking this hour about the podcasting industry it is booming indeed but every time we see huge growth in digital media we also begin to see some pushback for example the New York Times recently had an article asking if we're at peak podcast and we want to hear from you at 804238255 that's 80423 talk lots of comments coming in on line a c l 4 Nari says what I love about podcasting is that there are no gate keepers the population of podcasters more accurately reflects the demographics of this country and that's valuable. Says being able to find specific shows tailored to your interest in narrative podcast offering what is essentially radio plays for a new age podcast or media on demand even before Netflix and Hulu were a thing we're joined today by Nicholas Quah he's proprietor at hot Pod media where he writes edits and publishes the leading trade newsletter about the podcast industry and critic own is with us as well she's founder of transmitter media they produced podcast as well and Gretta before the break we were talking about her different income models as this industry grows and I just want to get your quick thoughts on on what you think about the potential for subscription models for podcasts. Yeah I think we've seen a few entrants into this space over the last years from audible to stitcher premium and now Nick mentioned luminary And these are all subscription based services to access you know very particular content that was made for those services are not available anywhere else and as a maker I'm not sure yet how it's working because and also as a listener because I want the work that I make to be available to the broadest possible listening audience and you know we have yes individual silos and I don't think that the listening audience is yet trained to go to h.b.o. For Game of Thrones to go to hoover shrill right like to go to these individual streaming services for the shows that they're seeking and so I don't think we're quite there yet in terms of these subscription services breaking through I'm curious to see how it continues to evolve but I don't think we're quite there yet Yeah I wouldn't be surprised if we do get there eventually because I find myself paying for subscriptions for things I never thought I would even just a couple of years ago so who knows but let's go to Tyler who's calling from Ginia Tyler you're on the air oh you know you're doing great What's your thought for today. Oh yes ma'am so I'm talking from an independent podcast right co-host called the conspiracy Hong with my sister and we basically talk about some nominal lore and conspiracy and all that kind of thing I wanted to basically say that podcasting as a creative medium is great for for people like me who are passionate about strange and weird topics we can we basically have a voice now where we know we really never really did without being censored like on You Tube. So basically I think podcasting it's great because you can have explicit content or nonsense or content and kind of the snowball and say whatever you'd like and you're going to have a demographic and there's going to be an audience out there that will listen to you whether it's small or big think we actually saw this in Joe Rogan's popular you guys were talking about he basically he says all kinds of crazy and fun stuff he's actually had out there and people would eat it up so I just I just believe that pod casting is here to stay and it's a great way for for small and independent. People like myself to actually have a voice Well Tyler thank you so much for your call Tyler there with his podcast called the conspiracy hall I guess Tyler thanks again all right I want to bring in one more voice into this conversation Chris Richards joins us now he's with us from Washington he's the pop music critic for The Washington Post and he recently wrote a piece headlined our podcast killing music or just wasting our time we have a link to that on point Radio dot org So Chris Richards welcome to on point hello you know I welcome all voices here even ones who want to rain on the podcast parade . The tell is you you actually wrote in quite a lot of detail in the post about you perhaps your less than positive view of podcasting right now what do you not like about them I think to skeptical ears like mine they feel very samey very tedious and I wouldn't chime in if it weren't being . Up as like this vaunted new form of our time back in March New York magazine called podcasts quote the most significant and exciting cultural innovation of the new century that's a huge claim so I thought why not take the listening that we applied to music the skepticism and. Intricacy that we bring to listen to music to the podcast world and the thing that I kind of find is you know it's a lot of times podcasters maybe an audience as well or maybe thinking about pod casts more as a informational transaction than like a listening experience if you will and I just think if pod casts are asking for our most attentive listening they must aspire to be the most worthy of it because they're taking away listening hours that are otherwise spent on music in my world Ok so let me say here I actually agree with a lot of what you're saying because I tried to dabble into some podcasts here and there I just I can't do them say this because people have to listen to me talk but I just can't listen to a couple of people getting out of sitting out of like a bad microphone and just talking anymore and having a tiny podcast but look I mean we all know podcasters out there who are spending hundreds and hundreds of hours meticulously crafted thing who are almost multi-dimensional listening experiences that are doing exactly what you're calling for providing a rich oral experience to go along with their storytelling or journalism or conversation so that come on that is happening already don't you think I do so I do think to some degree yes and a small fraction of those 700000 podcast that we're talking about throughout this segment but I think you know more than a decade into this format we're still splashing around in the primordial sludge of podcasting My hypothesis is that the podcasters who rise out of this massive throng of aspiring pockets out there they're going to be the ones who are thinking at the level that you're talking about think about podcasting as a sonic experience think of the breadth of subjects and all the freedom that we've been talking about for this past hour I don't hear that sonically you know I mean in terms of like the form and the content they don't seem to match up. The content itself can be all over the map and so seeming to me I'm just trying to encourage the world to think more broadly about about that it was going to broadcast creators Ok so so grab a cone there you are. Waiting around in the primordial sludge of. It it's in their infancy you what's yours. Well Chris let me send you a playlist I have some great podcasts that I think you might like. You know I have a background as a musician I have a deep love for music and I listen to music all the time I also listen to podcasts all the time and I listen to them in different ways so when I want to listen to music it's satisfying a particular need when I want to listen to a story or hear a cast host that I really connect with that serves a different sort of need so I think that these are for me there are 2 completely different mediums and you know a lot of folks in Pakistan come from you think and think about storytelling in a very musical way you know we're thinking about you know in the way that we might think of a chorus and a bridge and how we're building towards an important moment. But I I think that there is a lot of intention in craft and podcasting and it's not every pop castors. You know because as we talked about like it is a very you know democratic medium but I do think that there's a place for music I think there's a place for a pod cast and I think that there are really beautiful pod casts that can change your mind and Nick or do you want to chime in here yeah I mean Washington Post. Is Better get out of primordial soup there Jake's Ok so there is there a couple things one it's interesting because if you framed as there is some game between music and podcasts you know I don't think that necessarily bears itself out one of the sort of pillars of the thinking behind this is what we've understood from reporting of Spotify investing in the parking space is that on as they see on their platform users that consume music consume park as a new platform tend to also consume music like a higher rate so there's more engagement on the platform so there's that there's a bit of a feeling that it might not be sort of as a result situation here but personally I. Like generally to challenge the notion of like. What we talk about we talk about quality What We Talk About When We Talk about experiences that we seek for I think one of the benefits of a situation of a verb Londons is that demanding a different people's different interpretations or expectations of what quality is can be processed by that abundance I personally am a huge basketball nut and I would be more than happy to consume 20 hours of people talking about the Oklahoma City Thunder because that's for me that it is my experience that is something that for me I feel like it's something I'm not getting anywhere else it's the kind of quality I do not consume anywhere else and so I would rather not apply a sort of very individualistic or very specific form of interpretation of quality onto an ecosystem as wide and expensive as So Chris let me turn back to you because as as a rule in my life I want to celebrate anyone who calls for for people to aim for excellence here and I hear that's part of your message but don't we have the same tension between. Between sort of volume in terms of the number of options and and quality in music as well as constantly being absolutely 100 percent there's a part of my essay where I write about this thing called Sturgeon's Law It's this theory by the science fiction writer Theodore Sturgeon where he said 90 percent of everything is essentially garbage I think if you had lived to the information age you might go to 99 percent of everything I mean that applies to music to film and television and of course the things that I think are going to set. Themselves apart in this new landscape that we live in whether it be music or a streaming television show or a podcast is this idea that. The content and the form are inextricably interlaced with one another and they owe something to each other and I just feel in podcasting of the speaking of the pacing the editing the scoring there's so much unexplored potential still a pod cast to me to not found $11000.00 this is disparate as music does and of course you know obviously we have centuries of civil as a. To catch up catch up on in that sense we're making music since we've been able to communicate but. I do think that you know the future is bright in that sense and because the landscape to me as a listener seems seems so dark Well Chris I have to say I really appreciate you coming on in jesting a little bit a dissonance in this conversation because not everything is always 100 percent in agreement so Chris Richards pop music critic for The Washington Post he wrote a piece called our podcast killing music we're just wasting our time and we're going to that on point Radio dot org Chris thank you so much for joining us well thank you for having me let's see if I can sneak in one more call here April is calling from Evansville Indiana April you're on the air Hi there Hi Go ahead I just wanted to comment that my daughter has high functioning autism she really enjoys podcasts and there has been a lot of new park out salable for younger children that have really been great for us and I'm thankful that we have those available and then she can kind of get out of the screen for a while. Well April thank you so much for that let's have more time for another one here April from Evansville thank you let's go to Stu who's calling from Pompano Beach Florida Stu you're on the air. Hi Magnus Thanks for taking my call so I host 10 years ago I started a podcast called Wine talk with through the wind through and still available on i Tunes and the thing I want to say that I want to make was 10 years ago there was no . There was not nothing to look at as or listen to as an example of great podcasting And I think there's been a tremendous learning curve over the course of that 10 years. Thing sounded to me back then and now they sound a whole lot better I think the key thing that we think we need to understand is that there are plenty of people out there doing things in the pot a sphere if you will and as the person that was talking earlier had mentioned I agree 99 percent of it is is probably not that fast and there is what the one percent out there that people strive to be. And I think the just the wine industry alone has changed and I think people that have come on to wine podcasts that being producers from all over the world have really benefited from that in marketing their wines and getting their message out about who they are. Not just the one thing I just want to say and then lastly I think people Sebastian show as a phenomenal Pod asked for people who are interested in comedy that's choreography and Sebastian mask on them that was my last statement was do thank you so much for your call Ok so did Nick and Brad oh we just got a 3 ish minute here left to go and I want to peer into the future a little bit with both of you because I think one could argue that when Apple decided to put a podcast app on every i Phone that it was going to sell and then that it sold that's one of the things that really helped podcasting break through to the mainstream because it became effortless to find them right you didn't have to like . Go through to various services are go through your laptop etc etc So now that when we see Apple considering creating its own original content for a podcast Nick let me just start with you how how major is this for the industry I think the devil I think the devil's in the details here it really depends on what exactly the sort of bankrolling already exclusivity of whatever these other shows are going to be where it's going to place how it's going to play is that how it's going to be how it's going to relate to the way that the apple pie gets a platform currently sort of looks like and feels like and how it interacts with every other pockets or an ecosystem Yeah I mean you could imagine that Apple it wouldn't be it wouldn't be surprising if Apple privileged its own content when you when you go to the Apple podcast there's a flea incentive to do so for sure there is always a business reason for everything and you know the uncertainty and the possibility of the worst case scenarios the thing that sort of causing anxiety right now but I do think that there is a permutation in which you know we can have our cake and eat it too much Apple can have its own likeness of podcasts while maintaining of the open ecosystem but you know the fact the matter is that changes changes inevitable and it's going to be complicated for everybody some people will lose some people will gain but but this this will happen whatever happens will happen Well Greg I imagine that for a podcast producer such as you having a company like Apple with the deepest pockets in the world might just be nothing but good news like it's someone to sell content to. Possibly Yeah I mean I think as we don't know yet what we don't know so I think we all remain sort of curious to see what shakes out but absolutely that could could definitely be a possibility Well I'm going to wrap up this conversation there with and with it with a note of measured hope which I appreciate so good to coordinate founder of transmitter media creative podcast company joining us today from New York it's been a great pleasure to speak with you gotta thank you so much thank you and Nicholas Chua proprietor of hot Pod media he writes edits and publishes the leading trade newsletter about the podcast industry he also contributes to New York magazine and vulture and he spoke to us from New Haven Connecticut Nick thank you so much thank you is a river and all point is produced by and about just down my lane a modest a final cut so as Allison Pollie James Ross Alex wrote a great Tatar and Adam Waller with help from Alex Reese and Sidney Wirth I'm Our executive producer is Karen Schiffman I'm making a trucker birdie and yes one more shameless plug go to whatever part casting app you get your podcast from and download the on point podcast thanks so much this is on point. On point is a production of w b u r Boston and our. Support for on point comes from Geico offering car insurance as well as services for homeowners and renters insurance through the Geico Insurance Agency additional information can be found at Geico dot com or 180947 auto and fracture fracture prints digital photos directly onto glass creating frameless works of art fracture glass prints come in a variety of sizes that are ready to mount on the wall learn more at fracture Me dot com slash on point. Be moderate be a National Marine Sanctuary host the responsible wildlife viewing Festival on Saturday August 3rd at 9 am at 693 Del Monte Ave organizations will share knowledge on local wildlife and responsible viewing guidelines more information is on a community calendar accusing you org Support for k.z. You comes from Gail's bakery and roast teacher Ria in capital of featuring summertime sandwiches Cali Turkey and Jack try to pay with bacon and chatter and begin power wraps dot com for 6 to 1200. Is proud to be a media sponsor of the 57th annual Cabrio festival of contemporary music presenting new works for orchestra by living composers conductor Christine much a lot who in the Festival Orchestra present music of our time for our time including 2 works by Wynton Marsalis and a tribute to Ruth Bader Ginsburg with guest artists Metz a soprano Jamie Barton and violinist Nicola Benedetti July 28th through August 11th at the Civic Auditorium in downtown Santa Cruz concert calendar and tickets at Capri a Music dot org clubs tonight sun tomorrow partly cloudy tonight with lows in the mid to upper fifty's at the coast mid fifty's in Carmel Valley tonight mid fifty's as well in Scott's Valley and mostly sunny tomorrow highs in the upper sixty's to upper seventy's along the coast. From California State University Monterey Bay This is listener supported 90.3. 2 Pacific Grove Monterey Salinas Santa Cruz n.p.r. For the Monterey Bay area it's 2 o'clock. From w.h.y. Why in Philadelphia I'm Terry Gross with fresh air today sleep disorders and the nocturnal brain we talk with neuroscientist Dr guys about insomnia narcolepsy night terrors sleep walking even something known as sexsomnia where people pursue sexual acts in their sleep we used to think of sex on mirrors being a relatively rare phenomenon but actually whenever I do anything like this on the radio. I'm usually inundated boy emails messages saying oh yes. Discuss what to do if you can't sleep and explain research about the connection between sleep disorders and dementia his new book is called the not turn all brain also we listen back to an interview with Paul Krassner he founded the sixty's counterculture magazine The realist and co-founded the he died Sunday at age 87. First news live from n.p.r. News in Washington I'm joining Herbst former special counsel Robert Muller is scheduled to testify before Congress tomorrow N.P.R.'s Winsor Johnston reports it's unclear though whether he will answer questions the go beyond the parameters of his nearly 450 page report on Russian election interference this is the opportunity House Democrats have been waiting for to press Muller for further details from his investigation Margaret Taylor a fellow at the Brookings Institution says it's unlikely will stray from his report but that doesn't mean there will be nothing new here but I do think that his testimony will offer well a bit more color and potentially bring the report to life a little bit more which I think will be valuable for Americans who for the most part have not sat down and actually read the report the Justice Department says it expects Maillard to limit his testimony to what is in the public version of his report is specially when it comes to matters covered by executive privilege. Winsor Johnston n.p.r. News Washington President Trump is suing the House Ways and Means Committee along with officials in New York state to prevent House Democrats from using a new state law to obtain his tax returns he's been working hard to keep the returns and other financial records under wraps the committee hasn't yet asked New York State for the tax returns and it's not clear if it ever would but Trump's legal team argues King crushing all investigators have no legitimate legislative purpose in seeking out the returns and argue that the law violates the 1st Amendment European politicians are reacting to the news that Boris Johnson is Britain's new prime minister as N.P.R.'s Eleanor Beardsley reports the continent is sending signals that his election won't change anything about bread sit in France one news channel called Johnson incompetent and a. Newspaper republished an editorial against his prime ministership but President Emanuel Micron congratulated Johnson and said he was very desirous to work with them Johnson says he wants a better Bret's it deal than what his predecessor to reason may negotiated but says Britain will leave the e.u. October 31st do or die in Brussels one e.u. Commissioner accused Johnson of entertaining cheap promises and simplified visions and e.u. Parliamentarian Natalie was 0 tweeted as much as we all want relations between the u.k. And the e.u. To be as close and constructive as possible Boris Johnson's election doesn't change a simple fact we have a good deal and the e.u. Will stand by it Eleanor Beardsley n.p.r. News Paris. Wall Street was hired by the closing bell the Dow gaining 177 points to end the day at 27349 That's up about 6 tenths of a percent the Nasdaq gained 47 points to close at $8251.00 that's also up 6 tenths of a percent the s. And p. $500.00 up 20 points at $3005.00 That's up nearly 7 tenths of a percent you're listening to n.p.r. News from Washington. Several organizations including the American Civil Liberties Union of Georgia are asking a judge to issue an injunction preventing Georgia's new abortion law from taking effect January 1st off it from member station a.b. Has more in June the a.c.l.u. Along with the Center for Reproductive Rights and Planned Parenthood sued given a Brian camp over Georgia's law that would ban abortions after fetal cardiac activity is detected sometimes as soon as 6 weeks that's before many women realize they're pregnant while that lawsuit is being heard the groups want to judge to keep the law from going on the books 6 states around the country have passed similar abortion laws but none has gone into effect because of legal challenges for n.p.r. News I'm your Moffitt in Atlanta Kentucky wants to tax the cigarettes the same as it does tobacco products state lawmakers are proposing a bill this week that would add an excise tax to sale of all products for East cigarettes a $27.00 and a half percent of the wholesale price Kentucky recently increased the tax on cigarettes to a $1.10 per pack officials with the Coalition for a smoke free Kentucky say the state is in the middle of a youth epidemic in the use of the products the bill's sponsor says the money from the tax would also though be used for the state's troubled public pension system for little prices higher by the closing bell of more than one percent at $57.13 a barrel and Wall Street hired by the bell the Dow up $177.00 the Nasdaq up $47.00 I'm joining her post and you're listening to n.p.r. News from Washington support for n.p.r. Comes from n.p.r. Stations and other contributors include the doors to do Charitable Foundation which provides unrestricted support to individual artists in jazz dance and theater through the doors Duke artist awards and the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation at our w j f dot org Support for Casey you comes from Santa Cruz.