I think percent over taking the Christian Democrats and challenging for a seat in government the new parliament will be greener and younger with unlikely focus on environmental issues Bolivians are voting to decide whether to give the country's left wing president Evo Morales a controversial 4th term his administration has been hit by corruption scandals he's Katy Watson these are the most uncertain elections since ever moralist took power nearly 14 years ago when he became president was great enthusiasm for the changes he could make Bolivia's 1st indigenous leader he promised Social Inclusion right from the start and that's been one of his biggest achievements that a prudent management of the economy has in Bolivia grow and extreme poverty fall while he's been in power but his decision to run for a 4th term despite losing a referendum to scrap term limits has many people worried that Mr Morales has no desire to step down his closest rival former leader. Has promised a more democratic and less corrupt Bolivia b.b.c. News the former South Sudanese vice president and rebel leader react much are has warned that forming a unite a unity government next month as stipulated in last year's peace deal would cause chaos in the country after meeting un Security Council officials in the capital Juba Mr much are said his movement would not join the government because key elements of the agreement have not been implemented these include integrating on the groups into a national army. Protests over an increase in public transport costs in Chile have continued to cause significant disruption many flights have been suspended or delayed the hypermarket chain Wal-Mart is closing its stores across Chile after $60.00 were damaged in the unrest Jayne Chambers is in the Chilean capital many people defied the Saturday night curfew in Santiago to take part in more looting of supermarket shops and car dealerships the city's makan found that 3 people were killed in a fire in a supermarket 2 at the scene and one later in hospital the country is struggling to get back to normal with traffic lights out in barricades in several cities stopping people from getting around the trouble was sparked by rising the cost of Metro tickets president being at a has now announced that he will cancel the increase saying he's listening to the people but for many that's not enough the British government has insisted that Britain will leave the e.u. As planned in 11 days despite a vote in parliament compelling the Prime Minister to ask for an extension e.u. Ambassadors are also pressing on with the legal ratification of the latest BRICs it deal the E.U.'s chief breaks it negotiator Michel Barnier I told him that the decision by British M.P.'s to withhold their support for the deal amounted to a hold up not a rejection and the hosts of the Rugby World Cup Japan have been knocked out of the competition they lost by 26 points to St South Africa who play Wales in the semi final That's the latest b.b.c. News. It's to the best of our knowledge from p r x. I man strange jams and I'm looking for. This it will. Stick She's the daughter. You get to see her chase a mountain lion a tree this winter. The deer done that not all to hell. The best place in the world the seawall this is Yellowstone National Park and the best person to see them with is Rick McIntyre He's a wealth biologist and he knows the parks walls like you know what. I'm like a parent that would die if they missed any of their kids recitals or baseball games or whatever I mean they have to be there to see everything. I did have one stretch through his scopes and following in his footsteps. Look as quick as you can his holler. Out. Of these the 1st Wildrose you 2 have seen Yes Ok Congratulations how do you feel that that amazed Ok You're Smiling Yeah they're just they're gorgeous crew. Here you can see the same walls day after. You could see them raised she could see the pups grow up in some cases they were take over as the next generation some would fail something succeed you must know these wolves better than you know. Most people who you come in contact with so yes in a way I think that's true you know you learn their strengths their weaknesses for the most part they have very had an rable personalities have been once in awhile you kind of find a big loser but give me an example of a big loser one of our most famous was was number 302 he was totally unreliable and totally understand the ball he was this far as the female walls were concerned very good looking and so they flocked to him and sense there happens to be a woman reporter here I don't know if you've ever in your life met a guy that you discovered you couldn't rely on he had you couldn't trust him for the audience he's nodding your head it high and the male reporter is trying to act and conspicuous here. RINGBACK But you come back and take a look is that on. She's actually in the water way when she's waiting in the pool Oh yeah. Well this. 15 months or so she herself. She looks a little like Tell me the story of Wolf $21.00 what made him an extraordinary love well there's so much to his life story we could go on for hours to start with he happened to be boring with genetics that you could argue made him the most physically superior Worf of modern times perhaps who ever lived he had this athletic coordination and agility that would put him on the level of the Mohammad Ali and Michael Jordan you're saying bolt you know whatever you want to say he was the epitome of masculine dependability and then you could put him on a poster this is what you're supposed to be like eyes be like well for $21.00 how does that play out for a wolf to be so physically gifted what can they do with it other worlds can't. As far as you know in his long life of 9 years he never lost a fight and in 2 occasions I witnessed by himself to protect his family he had to fight 6 opponents and even then he won as a young man 21 was on the scene and witnessed his adopted father who was under size who was the rod who was bullied and picked on and when he was young to protect his family 8 had to fight a much much larger much more aggressive much more experienced alpha male and somehow it won the fight and he beat up the big guy and had him in his mercy and the way that one wolf kills another wolf is they just tear the throat out and it's an instant death and so he had the other guy at his mercy the other guy was only his back his throat was exposed and all he had to do is reach down and kill this guy anyone and go. 21 witnessed that and you can understand that he would never forget that and so as far as I know in his long career to anyone never killed a defeated opponent he always let him go you left it to the Jew is it a fair word to just say yes you could also say respect and admired you know all those words Sure. I haven't even seen anything. But. Who are all these people mean is there a whole kind of culture over there watchers there is there is kind of a definitely a culture of Wealth Watchers here I should get your name yes or your Leanna Ileana Ferguson and with you also involved tracker or wild side I hadn't realized that it's such a drama it's almost like it's almost like coming out of every day for the next installment of the city and it's it's it's kind of you want to keep up with it because things change so fast in a while for all that I mean overnight you can lose the alpha female of the pack in the next morning the package dismantled and things are changing so it kind of goes fast and so being out here it struck me just to kind of live in the moment more and what makes Rick remarkable because I know I don't know who he is I could talk on and on about Rick I think he had a makes this community and he's just a special guy I think there's no one that will ever really replace record out here anyone to talk on and on about the importance of Wallace with Alcan wolves or disease ecology and all of that stuff the like again today that doesn't really matter like it's about stories about connecting with humans because if we don't connect with them we're not going to care about them as he seems to really when he talks about the wolves he talks about the. People there was family. What eventually happened to England. Where when you do this work then you know individual animals very well and you do admire that and. You have to be prepared for the. Likelihood. That many of them died down as that may not be poor as interior witness or. The average lifespan of wars in Yellowstone as only 5 years he lived to be 9 years however. 42 who is very devoted to very attached to she died in February of his final year and I think it's fair and accurate to say that he was never the same. So about 4 months after she died it was a normal day he was out with his family and they were resting and elk ran by all the walls jumped up the good in him and they chased the out that's what was do all of them chase the except for 21 and he just did. It Anyway down like he just didn't have the energy anymore and I knew at that moment we were approaching the end that was the last time I saw him alive. So a month went by when some people came and they had been riding horses up in the mountains and they wanted to tell me something so they tracked me down and they said. We were up here they had a very good description location and here's what we saw there. We knew the area and it was the place in late. I am or where for many many years 21 and 42 would bring their family when I was on with our bonding was better up there they were fewer bugs they just rested side by side took naps together they could lift their heads in the meadow see their new crop of mobs playing it almost be like grandparents at the summer vacation you know just on the porch watching you know all the different generations and you know just relaxing in the Times would have been good. So we rode up there that's where he was. And he was on this little hero he was under a shade tree and he was rolled up from a distance he certainly appeared to be sleeping. In his very poignant to think through about the situation that he used the last bit of his great strength can endure and its decline now known. We're pausing for a 2nd here. Word or gathering our emotions here yeah uncertainty for China can show themselves here even after all these years it was very emotional Yeah and you know all of us will always we all kind of walked off a little bit to have you know some to ourselves and. It was the perfect end of $21.00 story and that's where he wanted to be. One final question and if you have any other questions and I've talked with some wildlife biologists who would like you live and breathe them in their lives are devoted to the animals they study and they talk about dreaming about those animals and how that the animals have sort of occupied their their psychic space their unconscious Do you dream about wolves. Well there was a time that I Jane it was was like here that that. So when I had to have that operation it just happened they gave me a room where the window faced to the north Yellowstone was to the south what began to happen is every time I went to sleep where there was a nap during the day or at night every time I had the same dream and in the dream I was in the hospital room and in the dream I would get up and I would go to the window and I would look out to the north and the walls were there it was a. Limb or a valley the Lamar canyon wall and the alpha female in that group is the great granddaughter of 21 and 42 and I knew them very well but every time I went to sleep I dreamed of those walls and then I got back here on the 8th day after the operation we saw those exact rules of the Lamar walls that I had dreamed about and I never had that dream again what do you make of that dream. What do I make of that . You know I haven't figured it out I don't know. It certainly was an incentive to get back as quick as I can so yeah I know it's beyond me what was going on there but yeah I guess you could say the rules were calling me back and they were waiting for me when I came. Over green just the right there's a grey moving battle. She's looking in the water so she sees something moving that looks edible should try to touch it. All books are to God something. She has something. She might give it to it. Rather than eat it herself watch for the pups to run to her. Pups or running after a minute as quick as you can really really fast. Oh yeah wow oh my god this other. Ships here said. I was a good tank. MacIntyre is a wolf biologist he works for the National Park Service and if you want to read more about him there's a book that just came out that tells more of his story it's called American wolf by Nate Blakeslee In the meantime we put a little photo album of our day Yellowstone up on our website at t.t. Book dot org. The reintroduction of wolves in the West has been hugely controversial people love seeing them in the national parks but not so much on private land and the same goes for their cousins coyote's. I was 17 years old and going out one morning with a rifle into the Red River Valley. And seeing this and slowly gorgeous female coyote. I was fascinated with the West I was romantic about the west this was a western animal that was showing up in my home state and I wanted to possess it. And so she's switching her tail and throwing dewdrops in the air this very picture of the American woman s. And looks me directly in the eyes. With a look that I know is kind of posing an ancient question. And it wasn't a question to answer correctly. And so. I shot or. Find out what happened next after this I man strain champs it's to the best of our knowledge from Wisconsin Public Radio. And p r x. . Hi I'm Tina Pam and general manager here at k l w many of you have asked us to reduce the length of our on air fundraisers we accept your challenge we already ran the shortest ones in the Bay Area but let's make them even shorter our next fundraising drive starts Wednesday October 23rd and it will be chest 8 days our goal remains $300000.00 the only way this will work is if you get involved right now and give us a headstart please visit k l w dot org today and don't. That 17 year old who shot a coyote was Dan Florrie's and what happened after he took the shot was not what he expected suddenly all the romance was gone from the scene that beautiful wilderness turned out to be actually. Your with soft drink bottles littering it I could hear the grinding gears of a propane truck a half a mile away all this romance and beauty that I had had in front of me only a moment before was gone and I had drained it out of the scene myself and so when I did it was sort of like replicating the previous 150 years of American history towards coyotes in a moment's time today Dan Florrie's is the author of coyote America a natural and supernatural history and coyotes are fascinating because despite having been hunted just as intensely as wolves they survived that's kind of mystifying because while we hunted wolves into extinction somehow coyotes just spread Africa where. Florrie's told Steve Paulson how well I think what happened was that persecution in their history which was originally imposed on them by gray wolves the larger dog that her Rast coyotes they developed these evolutionary strategies for surviving persecution and harassment largely through interacting with wolves over the previous 30000 years of history before we ever arrived in North America and so when we became the new persecutor they just sort of transferred their ability to survive under that persecution to what we were doing to them and in fact that persecution does lead them into a kind of a calm a zation mode it sends out exploring disperser to find new territories and that's the primary reason why they're all over North America now well and not only in wilderness areas I mean they're showing up in cities showing up in in Los Angeles in New York City and Central Park even now and they Central Park New York City is really kind of the the last frontier of the coyote's range expansion and I mean I've been in Los Angeles and that was coyote territory when Los Angeles was founded in the 18th century so they've been there from the very beginning I found good evidence for example that they were in the California cities of the Central Coast in the 18th thirty's and 18 forty's and in l.a. You start getting mentions of them in the beginning of the 20th century so they've always been there but what's kind of astonished everyone is that as cities like Los Angeles have grown into these giant megalopolis conditions coyotes have continued to thrive right in the midst of the urban sprawl out if they manage to do that. Well for one thing that's pretty good evidence that they've been living around us and among us ever says humans came in North America they probably were drawn to Indian camps because you know for better or worse our settlements are human settlements produce a lot of mice and a lot of rats and those happen to be the pray that coyotes focus on so coyotes seem to have been drawn to human camps from the very beginning we know they were in cities like Tino its teeth on the capital of the Aztec empire now Mexico City a 1000 years ago and so as soon as we came up with methods to control feral dogs and modern American cities and we got dog catchers and dog pounds and leash laws that sort of opened up modern American cities to this invasion by coyotes and yet you would think that a coyote in the middle of a city would not have much place to roam I mean you know I mean they have to the Don't they have to sort of find some wild patches here and there and they're very good at that and they that's what they do that's why we keep seeing them in places like Central Park and on the campus of Columbia University and in Chicago in the parks along the railroad tracks around the lake they do seek out natural settings because I mean they are wild animals and they're preying primarily on rodents but they seem to have figured out a way to not only survive in cities but it even turns out in modern America bet cities have become the equivalent of national parks for Kai honey because nobody really hunts them tries to trap them chases them with planes or helicopters in the city and one of the things we know that's happening now is whereas in rural America coyotes if they only live to about 3 years old in cities they're getting to be 121314 years old really that's fascinating. So what you're saying is over the course of centuries there's been this really interesting relationship that's evolved between humans and coyotes and they kind of thrive together or coyotes sort of like to hang out near where humans are in you say in fact that the coyote is a kind of special Darwinian mirror reflecting back insights about ourselves as fellow mammals in what way well I think it really is in part because coyote's are the rare animals that they not only share some of our own evolutionary adept Haitians I mean when I talk about at some length in the book as the fission fusion model there are only a few large mammals around the world that engage in societies that can either be social where large numbers of individuals are grouped together for some common and or very individualistic where singles and pairs of individuals tend to exist and coyote's and humans are among the few animals that tend to do both things and other in other words there's a lot of flexibility there I mean you have you have just an enormously expanded your possible habitats because you can thrive in these different circumstances that's exactly right you can either exist as in the case of coyotes as a pack or you can say bring down animals like deer or you can exist as an individual or a pair and in that way sort of expand as you mentioned your possibilities for living in the world so that's one of the evolutionary adept Haitians that we and coyote share and it's one of the reasons why we've both been sos successful and we've both been disperser species where we've spread around the world in the case of coyote's all across North America and I think that that success that kind of success in particular is pretty. Rare in the modern world in the so-called Anthropocene where humans sort of dominate the ecology of the planet and the coyote happens to be another animal that does that very thing so when we look at those golden odds of coyote's and they look back at us we're basically looking at a species that mirrors us and all kind of uncanny ways. Now there's something else about the coyote that everyone recognizes instantly and that's the how they have a very distinctive Howel and which you say might be considered North America's original national anthem. I do argue that and I've said that in public a few times to General laughter usually I've noticed that after people stop laughing they're sort of pausing and thinking a little bit about that because the truth is those of us out of European backgrounds we've only been in North America for the last 500 years for native people only about 15000 years and so this is an animal whose evolutionary origins go back I mean it's a distinctive species probably between a half 1000000 and 800000 years ago and it comes out of a line of canids the Kainat family evolved in North America that goes back 5300000 years so this is a sound and North America that has been uttered a nightly especially in the western half of the continent for probably a 1000000 years long before we ever dreamed that there might be something called a North America or a United States it's the kind of antiquity that this animal brains to the game in its presence in North America that I sort of want people to think about when they look at it and realize we're talking about a creature that is more America and then we're going to be for a very long time well I mean the other thing that's affecting about the coyote is. Is that the mythic nature of this animal especially among Native Americans why has the coyote assumed this almost god like status. That's another I think great kind of intersection between humans and coyote's looking one another in the eye and I think it happened probably as long ago as 10000 years ago at the end of the the grand Pleistocene extinctions when so many large animals disappeared from North America the mammoths the mastodons giant herds of wild horses camels all these animals became extinct but one of the animals that survived the extinctions was the coyote and native people were around to witness all of this and I think is they watch this animal that was clearly living by its wits they saw something Khanate but Twain themselves and coyote's and that to me is probably the explanation for why even as far back as the Paleolithic age even before agriculture was invented in North America Andean people created this body of literature of mythic oral stories with coyote functioning as the primary character and the deity that it created North America and they use him really as kind of a human avatar a stand in for human beings and that's what those stories really are about I mean we've talked about them as trickster stories but I always argue that the real importance of them is not so much the trick but why the trick works in a way with human Well I mean that the trick works because these stories are actually about human nature and about our own weaknesses and for bulls so coyote has kind of a God who unlike say Jesus who sets a perfect example that we're supposed to aspire to coyote represents. Every aspect of the human personality I mean and many of the stories he's gluttonous he's since you all he's vindictive he's jealous he's narcissistic he's above 13 and the stories are kind of told in order to demonstrate to people the proper way they have behavior and it's often not the way that coyote behaves do you have a favorite mythical story of coyote that you could tell us well I've got a chapter in fact it's the opening chapter in the America which is called Old Man America and it's about this body of stories and there are literally hundreds of them from 30 or more different tribes so it was impossible when I sat down to start working on that chapter it was impossible to try to tell all these stories could you could you pick just one maybe I mean just sort of if there's kind of a brief one that you could I would just it would be fun to hear them I picked out 4 of them that I thought were representative and I'll tell you the briefest one of all it's a story basically where coyote in this particular instance is not demonstrating the human personality of the narcissist or the buffoon but he's actually acting on behalf of the group and Coyote is going along many of the stories start that way coyote is going along and he becomes thirsty and he discovers that the only water available in North America has been dammed up into a gigantic reservoir by the Frog people. And so coyote goes to the frog people and he takes them something he's found along the trail in some of the stories it's a particularly interesting looking stone and he tells the frog people I would like to trade this stone for a drink of water and so they agree because they control the water and they only allow other beings to use the water when ever something is exchange for the right to do so and so coyote gives them the stone and he proceeds to get a drink but what the frog people began to realize is that coyote is taking a really really long time to drink and finally after several months long moments have passed they peer around the edge of their dam and realize is digging at the base of the dam and before they can stop him he completely releases all the water backed up behind the down by the Frog people across the world and when the frog people confront him at this trance transgression coyote says no one should lock up all the resources for their personal use something like water needs to belong to everyone I mean it's the kind of story that in the modern world still has relevance. Dan Flores is the author of coyote America a natural and supernatural history and he talked with Steve Pawson. Was a cowboy news in Texas. His face was burned indeed. Poured his dream parts say hard misc. He was there when my own children lose you. Any news. When the country's. As of the movie. So we've talked about wolves and coyotes and my dog will not forgive me if we don't at least mention dogs so Meryl Marco also loves dogs She's written 2 novels and many comic essays about our furry friends garden also a dog lover sat down to talk with her about our best friends. Just to riff on the title of your 1st collection of essays what the dogs have taught me what you think are the most important things that your dogs have taught you. I'm not sure they've taught me. They teach your resilience I mean they truly are stoic and bounce back with incredible buoyancy after every kind of weird thing that happens on the other hand they're a little bit heartless and. There's a story I sometimes tell people about when I send all my dogs out in the morning to go to the bathroom and then they come back in and I give them a cookie says one I had 4 of them and it was a big tradition everybody really enjoyed it and one day only 3 of them came back and I was waiting for the 4th one come back on and he didn't come and he didn't come and I went back out and found he had fallen in the pool and he couldn't get out and he was desperately clawing at the side of the pool worried and terrified and I pulled him out and there was no problem and then he ran into the house for a cookie and as I was giving out the cookies I realized the other 3 had watched him almost drown and one last kind of sad that he's meeting his death but it's cookie time. I. Don't run in debt as for a cookie and that's a little heartless Yeah I guess they taught me how to be more heartless Yeah I guess so let's try flipping the question around what are the most important things that you Merrill Marko have taught your dogs Jeez I teach them precious little I keep trying. To teach them the same few things that pulling on normally. And I go always bring a dog trainer in every time I get a new dog and they always when the dogs are with the trainer the dogs turn into a Boy or Girl Scouts immediately are saluting and doing everything perfect and then the trainer leaves and there yanking here around I'm told that I do on the search myself and often that's what I've taught my dogs is that it's easy to push me around. Comedy writer Meryl Marco talking about the mutual education that is part of our love affair with dogs. She's written 2 novels about dogs and a collection of essays called What the dogs have taught me a man strange champs it's the best of our knowledge from Wisconsin Public Radio and p r x. And for philosophy the program that questions everything except your intelligence coming up conscious machines would be cool if they were thinking feeling conscious machines what to make us obsolete Don't be so alarmist cash human brains are slow dumb and creaky machine brains will be fast smart and reliable so we'll program them to do the dangerous dirty boring work and leave the fun stuff to us they wise up and why bugs out can't just machines until last Sunday morning at 11 and 1.7. Later today on This American Life Catherine is packing a knapsack to take to a protest in Hong Kong she brings water 1st aid kit and I bring make up so that I can transform myself after the protests look like they're not going to protest because those who are going to protest it barely do make up what's it like really to protest for months probably won't get what they want to protest. 1 o'clock today on k l w San Francisco. So The idea for your novel life. I've always been fascinated by human relationship. And dogs in particular in that kind of that kind of tragedy of their. Citizens of our world you know they're not like cats where they really do very well living on their own without humans. And yet they're not part of our world they're treated as property in our world and they're not valued so that situation was always very compelling to me so that's part of it came from my favorite. Black German Shepherd who wears glasses. Yeah he's a very melancholy character he's trying to. He's trying to record the history of the monster dogs and he's trying to understand sort of where they came from or what their purpose is he's reading rankes diaries and trying to understand what his purpose was in creating the monster dogs. And what their purpose is now that he is gone and they don't have a leader anymore. And at the same time his own consciousness is sort of disintegrating something is happening to him and the other dogs mentally they're having memory lapses and lapses back into to dog dog like behavior and so he feels himself fighting against you know the. Against the loss of his own mind and sort of racing against the clock to try to get their history down and try to understand what he's what he's here for before he loses his mind yeah now would be a great time to have you read an excerpt from the lives of the monster dogs and appropriately enough an excerpt from Ludwig's diaries. They live like famous people keeping away from crowds and employing others to do their shopping occasionally appearing on talk shows or writing autobiographies. They're well received by fascinated audiences. But they aren't aware of the mixture of amusement and revulsion people feel the sight of pictures and Rottweilers stepping from the limousine dressed like 19th century Prussians with their monocles and parasol. They look like ugly parodies of humans and their biographies read like social satire. They will never be seen as anything but caricature is of human beings. There is no place for monsters in this world that is why I prefer not to live with them. But of course there's no place for me here away from them either standing at the window leaning on my cane it's not comfortable for me to stand on supported on my hind legs. I can see the humans walking their dogs. There's a small cold rain almost a fog and I'm holding my Ponce in my hand so they appear to me as fake shapes under the streetlamps fuzzy around the edges as if they're disintegrating. The dogs that live around here are small and they smell of nervousness stupidity and shampoo. I feel no can ship with them. While I was reading your book I couldn't help but think of the famous expression man's best friend dogs are often considered to be man's We should say and women's best friends but in lives of the monster dogs man in the form of Dr goes just wrong in his assistance is really a dog's worst enemy and you explore a lot of themes about the ways we mistreat dogs and other animals can you talk a bit about that. Yeah I mean it's it's horrible what we do to other non-human animals I don't know where to start with it but I was vegetarian starting when I was a child when I was 11 because I sort of realized that meat is animals and I don't want to eat them and we have such a strange attitude towards them you know will do things to a pig that if somebody did them to a dog everybody would be calling the police and yet it happens on a massive scale every day in animal agriculture to animals that we don't consider as worthy as dogs for whatever reason I mean you know and then we make up reasons like dogs are smarter but they're not smarter than pigs or you know they can't feel pain any more or less than pigs can so we you know we just very much use animals you know the bottom line is that we like to have dogs around our house and it's inconvenient to have pigs around our house so it's kind of all about us and I think that's slowly changing I mean it's I mean it's changed hugely in the years since I wrote monster dogs and that's very exciting for me to see so I think the tide is turning but but it's hard it's hard to see ourselves in others especially in others who can't fight back and don't have a voice of their own you know you know as you say the tide is turning it's a slow turning it's not turning as quickly as we would like it to but at least it's turning in the right direction yeah the idea of animal intelligence looms large What does an animal intelligence mean to you Well you know it that's such an interesting question because we always measure their intelligence against our own right if they can figure out what we're saying to them we think they're intelligent but we don't measure our intelligence by whether we can figure out what they're trying to say to us you know what does that mean I mean each creature has an intelligence that's suited. To who they are and you know of course we judge everything on a scale that puts us at the top and ranks everything beneath us here the way we humans think we automatically assume that our way of thinking is superior to an animal's way of thinking we don't necessarily know that yeah I mean what does it means appear I mean they're the ones who define what do you agree or means then of course are those going to be superior Yeah the fact that these monster dogs have this this extra intelligence the questions related to animal intelligence were something you were grappling and were seen away through all writing the book Right yeah I mean definitely that was something that was on my mind and I mean I think in the book it says that their intelligence is enhanced and I think that thinking back on that now I would ask myself what that means like it was altered in some way to be more human like or more adapted to living in human culture you know so if you come up with an answer as to what it means all these years later how their intelligence was enhanced. Or is that still a mystery to you I guess that's a mystery dogs are already so tuned in to humans I mean they're basically psychic because that's how they live that's their livelihood is figuring out what humans want from them but you know would they like reading I don't know some dogs can read I mean I've I've heard of a couple dogs that you could write you know a short word on an index card and they know what it means that you could write sit there was one guy Daniel Pinkwater he had a dog Lulu who could read that's the one I'm thinking of actually and she could say her name too she used to say Lou. You do a magnificent job of inhabiting the emotional and the psychological reality of what it might feel like to be these monster dogs these dogs that have human hands and enhanced intelligence and are able to speak I'm curious about how you were able to do that did you try to think like a dog or even Mike and take that a step further and think like a monster dog how did you get inside their heads. You know I've come to think it's kind of a mystical process I mean there's part of me that resisted looking at it that way I sort of wanted it to all make sense and to have some rational way to explain it but it's you know it's art and it and there is there's there's just spirit involved in it I mean part of it is you somehow invoke some consciousness that isn't yours and reach out to it and you you honor it you treat it like it's real and it becomes real to you in some way I think that's part of the process and you know whether that's a person who is different from you or a creature of a different species there's some element of channeling it in there I think of something that's not it's not within the bounds of your normal consciousness and who you are it's just a little bit outside of those bounds and you have to reach for it and and find it out there think yeah it seems you have to reach even further though when it's as you mentioned when it's a different species and a species that is how did these horrific acts performed upon it to modify it and make it work. Humanlike seems to me you got it you go even deeper into your imagination I guess so yeah I mean the other thing is that we here are humans judging how well I did at capturing a dog's consciousness so I don't know if a dog would agree. Is still around we've got to go water and get Lulu to read it yeah and offer a review so one of the things that I find incredibly poignant and heartbreaking is that the monster dogs know that they're going to die and as far as we know regular dogs don't know that they're going to die so it raises the question is it better to be aware of the fact that you're going to die at some point what do you think. I don't know if we could know the the date and manner of our own deaths would we want to know it. I don't know the answer and he said I guess it would very yeah yeah right was this idea that the monster dogs are aware of their mortality was that something you thought about did that inform the way you wrote about the characters the monster dogs as they were getting ill towards the end of the book. I mean it definitely informed how I thought of their situation I mean I just I guess I felt that they were yeah that they were creatures who had a limited time and there was something on unnatural about their existence something wrong you know I think that and that kind of is part of why they couldn't last they weren't really meant to be in the world and in a way yeah you know they were neither dog nor human and they had been changed from what they were supposed to be and so I think that sense of of of them not being able to hold on to the world definitely was part of what I was feeling as I was writing the book yeah and I think that's one reason why the whole novel but especially the ending the last few chapters about why it resonated so strongly with me because it's a sort of like a universal existential question and for an outsider like myself and someone who struggles with depression a lot that's something like I've often feel that I'm not meant to be in the world so yeah that was that is really well here I mean it's look it's kind of temporary for all of us right it is it isn't right there are always things wrong while you're in the world and ways that you don't match up with the world that you find yourself in yeah so that's I think that's a that's almost like a universal feeling I think yeah towards the end of your story the monster dogs start to become ill and since there are unable to reproduce that means that their kind is going to die out and it's very very poignant very sad and now would be the perfect time to have you read an excerpt from a scene in which your human character is talking to the monster dog looked big after Ludvig has become ill Could you read this for us sure Ok. Ok this is clear talking to. Are you afraid of the future I asked him once. We were sitting in his kitchen at a low butcher block table drinking tea an assortment of huge pots that hung from the ceiling a little used now gave a gentle to the dim afternoon I don't think so he said I expect it will be a welcome relief. Whatever comes next there's still so many things to do I should like to write extensively about ranks years with his followers for instance. Their loyalty their papers I have hardly that. Which might shed some light on that question and I think that would be quite interesting. But at some point one wants to be taken away to feel a hand on the shoulder and hear you have done enough. But you don't have to wait for somebody to say it I said you know we stop working on one thing and do something else. No I must keep working on my project but you are young. So incredibly much younger than you. Opened in a slight smile and he shook his head. The scientists and all their wisdom were not able to slow down our aging process quite enough to match yours after a certain point it begins to go very quickly with us. Even if it were not for the illness you know this already you can see it. But you don't seem old enough to give everything up. You gave me a look of intense sadness and then picked up the remains of a lemon slice from a saucer and held it absentmindedly in his hand. 'd one would not willingly give everything up he said but the time comes. Also he said there would be no point in with help from Charles Monroe again Margaret curious and current McKechnie Joe Hart is our technical director Steve Paulson is our executive producer and I'm an strange Champ's Thanks for listening. I am Harry Shearer host of the show a weekly through the worlds of media politics intro business delivered apology along with an all collected mix of mysterious music and the Barry you can hear live show only on every Sunday at noon join me. I'm David Latulippe Monday on explorations in music. Is inconsiderate domineering full of on reasonable opposition careless totally disobedient prickly blunt monstrously lazy and capriciously very. Only thinking aborts Monday night at 9 explorations in music. Here on $91.00 k l w San Francisco it's philosophy to start with something about yourself which is. Whatever comes to be. Always on the verge of creating a race of free autonomous conscious machine learning it's a creaky slow fallible human brain we could have.