The volley of tear gas testers scattered in all directions the race now on to avoid arrest large crowds have been demonstrating in the French capital Paris against draft legislation that would enable single women and lesbians to get state funded fertility treatment based on the able heart the move to widen access to fertility treatments would see all women under 43 eligible for I.V.'s treatments it would be the 1st big social change of a man well macro's presidency if approved by the Senate but it's angered conservatives including many within the Roman Catholic Church they see it as a threat to traditional concepts of the family and say they're defending the rights of children to a father banished for claims of liberty equality paternity a small counter protest also took place b.b.c. News. Why do some people find authoritarianism appealing are humans just naturally drawn to irony or is it because of weaknesses in democracy welcome to Philosophy Talk a program that questions everything except your intelligence I'm just land and I'm Ken Taylor we're coming to you from the studios of k o w San Francisco continuing conversations that began at philosophers corner on the Stanford campus where Ken teaches philosophy and I direct the philosophy in the traineeship today we're thinking about the allure of authoritarianism a lure there's no allure can I mean Terry and leaders they throw their opponents in jail they close universities they demolish the free press I mean if people go along with that it's because they're forced to no one wants to live under Stalin. I wish that were true but man have you looked around the world people actually vote for these guys sometimes millions and millions of people take it Larry he didn't seize power he won it in a democratic election and you know there were even Jews who voted for him in 1932 Ok but you know people like that who vote for authoritarians that they're not making an informed rational choice they're deluded that their heads are addled with a bunch of propaganda Well I agree there are a lot of adult headed voters but I don't think I think also there are a lot of them are acting completely rationally and actually acting on their deepest values for a very compelling reason Ken what are you talking about look look look I'll bring into your domain Josh you're a you're a soccer fan right and you use your team is from I think I heard you say for Liverpool You'll Never Walk Alone I have no idea what that means but I'll take that as a Yes Ok So you as a liberal pool fan despises fans of whatever other team the like evil empire t.v. Match so you know I said that I can't stand. The smug gets I don't know what a smug it is there but again I'll take that as a yes oh come on let's imagine something imagine that Manchester United has taken over the Premier League they've brought down the referees they like they fix the rules and the appeal system they've infiltrated the back pages of the newspapers so you know they're there hell bent on making sure that other teams just don't get a fair shake that would actually explain a lot. Of Magic a charismatic figure comes along he's going to he's going to save soccer from the from the you know someone you trust he embodies your deepest aspirations for soccer and Steven Gerrard Yeah Ok even Gerard I have no idea who that is but Steven Gerrard comes along he tells you he tells you live a pool fans I am going to restore fairness to the beautiful game going to make soccer great again or would he say make football great again I'm going to fight for the little guy for the real football fair not those arrogant usurping What do you call them gets Yeah I get it but but hang on can't. Assuming that your Steven Gerrard is is going to like shut down the free press is going to he's going to put the manager of Manchester United in jail and seize all power for himself that's tyranny I want my football freedom you are going to get football freedom you're going to gain more football freedom does freedom from those scuzzy usurping gets They're the only ones who might lose a little freedom and come on admit it it made it you think they deserve to lose their freedom for what they've done I know now can I mean pretty soon they're going to start coming for the Chelsea fans and the Arsenal fan you think that's a bad thing we shouldn't be opening the floodgates on this I mean if the Mancs really were reading this system what Liverpool should do is go through channels launch an official protest use the institutions of socket a month just how can you be so not. Either you can't count on democracy when the scuzzy gets the usurping kids have rigged the system and look even at its best you've got to admit to mockery see is slow and creaky and Superman c m we went to church on this can I mean democracy is the worst system except for all the other systems that have been tried I know I know that's a ritual incantation of search will but let's put that as an Sarah t. Of that incantation to that I know you think the American 2nd Amendment is an abomination Well suppose you could have ballers the 2nd Amendment by seizing total control for just a day when you do what you do it in order to make America safe again I'm going to plead the 5th Amendment on that one I had to say. But look here's what I will say I mean if people really do have reasons for electing a straw man those reasons are usually terrible 10 to one it's a deep seeded distain for people who are different distain that's totally irrational totally irrational unlike your hatred of those guys usurping men just to get right around to say getting very lucky I can see we're not going to agree completely on this maybe we should get some help from a roving philosophical reporter Shereen out all who was a witness to the Egyptian uprising in 2011 at the height of the Arab spring she files this report the day the protests started I was there I grew up in Cairo and at the time I was home from grad school I knew there would be protests but I didn't think they would get so big or have such an impact. Social media has played such an intentional role in getting protesters out into the streets and demonstrating in Egypt the last several days or so we've been watching the social media revolution as well as the real life revolution across the Middle East but for a lot of people the real life revolution didn't start that day. Definitely not someone who was into activism or really things. Gauge the political thing within Egypt simply because there was no there was no political system. Recently I talked to one of my friends from high school about it he asked to remain anonymous because of the most recently. Back to that leader like me he didn't immediately jump to action that day but the. 28 they had. Completely. They. Actually had. I don't know how many years so he made up his mind. That is way too intrusive. Chanting. To the party. That. Somehow that the. Unified everyone against him so people I have issues with so many levels during those hours I was like 100 percent unified with to. Achieve this one goal. And they did it. The military took power in the interim and began planning elections but many people question its legitimacy and continue to protest my friend in. Those elections. Very exciting for me it was the 1st time. In my life. In the journalism department at the American University in Cairo. She doesn't consider an activist but she joined the demonstrations on and off. The track. But I don't. Continue to vote. So what changed after the country voted in Islamist president Mohamed Morsi there were more protests with the military forces resignation in the next election the military commander in chief I've been for tax and c.c. Was a candidate supported. It we would have a more democratic country. And it was something that we really. Chaotic the economy was suffering there was no real force in the jungle so you know. I was looking for. Some really really basic things. Much more important. After years of political turmoil people had had enough they hope to. Calm down but stability did not necessarily make things better. The economy is even worse and has regain control over the media 100 doesn't think it's sustainable because there are ways. It's difficult to. Receive information. Now but for ever. And she's right in September of 2000 from the safety of his new. Actor and real estate developer Mohammed Ali began posting videos accusing the government spending and corruption his calls for protests brought hundreds to the streets for the 1st time in years despite a ban and the government responded with sweeping arrests detaining over 1200 people the people I spoke to are not hopeful for real change any time soon. It will require a huge group of people acting against their own benefit to maybe maybe have a chance to reform things here. I'm sure enough thanks for that bracing report on how the hope for democracy can give rise to an embrace of the word tearing isn't Shereen I'm Ken Taylor with me is my Stanford colleague Josh Landy and today we're thinking about the allure of authoritarianism help us give Today Show a bit more allure and a bit more authority by joining the conversation but with your non authoritarian comments in Congress questions call 805-2917 that's 805259917 we're joined now by Michael Lynch Professor of Philosophy at the University of Connecticut and author of know what's all society truth and arrogance in political culture Michael welcome back to philosophy talk well thanks so much for having me guys so Michael you Josh and I are old enough to have witnessed quite a few tyrants inaction and I lot of times what was it one of them the rise of one of them for example who 1st got you interested in this subject or what was it I don't think your resume really turned out the rise of an authoritarian but it was certainly my perception of that when I was I am old enough to remember. The election of Ronald Reagan and like a lot of you know young lefties at the time I was really worried that we were heading down the. Path towards some sort of totalitarian regime you know but how naive we were no idea that bad things could get. Out of course a lot of people voted for him a lot of people who voted for certain other people we could go to that category said so what do you think you know about the debate that Ken and I were having a moment ago where you know what explains that I mean my claim was that people have to be tricked dog. Worst the can was saying no no you can really freely choose to sign up for it rationally and and you know a back to your deepest value so so who do you think's right well I have to say my heart is with you job but I do think say that Ken has a point you know at the end of the day I think that authoritarian leaders are both we might put it a mirror and a model I mean on the one hand there are mirror in the sense they you know they they reflect back what we already is already there in the electorate the sorts of sort of feelings about threatening Zeituni that can talked about but you know at the same time they also serve as a you know a model for others to imitate Yeah you know yeah I know and I think you're very much right and here's the thing I believe about the early part of the 21st century that the question that we thought was settled in the 20th century is unsettled again whether democracy or if there are Terry and forms of government are up to most forms of of collective life I think we're in the grips of trying to figure that out I don't know do you agree or disagree I think we are in the grips I mean at the I think you know I was sort of joking when I said we were naive but I think at the end of the 20th century there was you know there were books coming out like the end of history in the last man about the you know that we were all congratulating ourselves on the fact that democracy was really had been you know the arc of history had ended at the shining pot of gold that was democracy and everybody was happy it was just a matter of making sure that everybody was on on board with that that's no longer the case I think we are just precisely at a spot not just of the United States but worldwide we're really coming to grips with with this question of which form of government is the best one and as it turns out all options are on the table Yeah that's a it's unsettling perhaps exhilarating perhaps to stir. Being fact you're listening to philosophy today we're thinking about the allure of authoritarianism with Michael Lynche from the University of Connecticut where people sometimes tempted by authoritarianism is Zina phobia economic anxiety the collapse of democracy trying the conversation by calling 805259917 that's 80525991 misplaced fears and misplaced hopes Plus your calls and e-mails when Philosophy Talk continues. Next Monday Oct 14th come join us from the campus of San Francisco State University will be thinking about sanctuary cities with philosopher Shelley Walcott The event is free and open to the public more information last we talked about Oregon. Thank. It. Came. To. Me. Why are some people so easily taken in by authoritarian leaders I'm kind Taylor this is philosophy the program that questions everything except your intelligence I'm just Laddie and we're thinking about the allure of authoritarianism Our guest is Michael Lynche author of No it's also science if you're a know it's all or even better a thoughtful listener Please share your wisdom with us by calling 805259917 that's 805259917 you can also e-mail us at comments at philosophy talk to our g.p. Or tweet us Our handle is Phil talk radio so Michael we've been throwing the term and cons of authoritarianism around a bit but we haven't defined it so wanted to define authoritarianism for us I think the definition is pretty simple to form of government that emphasizes a strong central executive either a person most likely or a bunch of people. And that strong central executive has a tight grip on. We might call the reins of power that stuff straight forward definition but the real thing to keep in mind is that when we're talking about authoritarianism governments can it's a matter of degree it's a matter of degree I mean there is it's you know you can form a government become can be more or less authoritarian and that's the thing to really keep your mind on your eye on I think that's I think that's an important thing because I mean we I mean some people think of totalitarian governments in which the government has a monopoly not on just power and force but even the means of persuasion and there aren't a lections and it's the party dump and it's also an invasion of private life as well yeah there's public sphere right totalitarians want to raise the race the distinction between between private the public private in the public through that's way patella Tarion societies are often surveillance societies are in the study of add and all that but I think it's important that if for example the United States is due to lapse into authoritarianism it's not very likely that we're going to into totalitarianism what would accept a non totalitarian but still authoritarian regime look like in a place like this for example well I think one of the one way to answer that is to think about you know what are the signs that you're already drifting into are thorough tearing us from what are the signs along the road you know that are blinking. Billboards that you're passing and that you should be paying attention to and what do they say I mean one of the things that I think we would see answer question is we would see an increasing increasingly the case that the rule of law the rule of law is no longer acknowledged by the executive branch that's that's a clear sign in all Thora Tarion governments. That the rule of law is no longer. And what I mean by that is not that there aren't any laws or that people don't follow those laws but that the laws that poor team to the executive power and it's the limits of that power are no longer acknowledged it makes sense and it connects back to something you're saying earlier about you know drawing on the fears of the population also stoking those fears about how to aren't made the nice points about totalitarian needing to stoke the fears of the populace because if you can if you can present to our national situation as one of facing an existential imminent threat well then you can say well just for the time being we need to suspend the rule of law just for now in the situation of emergency because the emergency becomes a perpetual state of emergency right exactly I mean I think this is this is you're right that errant almost you know 70 years ago now made this point that it's always in the interest of an authoritarian leader to cultivate anxiety and the feeling of threat or perceived threat in the minds of their their followers but at the same time here's something else he emphasized that I think is really important paradoxically that the leader also has an interest in authoritarian leader in cultivating an attitude of superiority they want to if they want their followers to feel threatened but at the same time they want them to believe a sort of. Narrative about what Jason Stanley calls the myth mythic past they want to justify right but let's let's slow down here because you talk about the authoritarians wanting to cultivate this idea and fear Ok that that's the that supposes that is not already there and it's not already a ground it's not already a basis for acting and choosing a leader I mean suppose that this is the people I like deeply divided and intolerant of one another and. Section of the people is a problem not of those people it's those black people those white people it's those used to being millionaires it's I mean that's not something that they are tearing has to cultivate it's more like it something that they can exploit I mean how much of it is what the authoritarian cultivates and what they have or Terry exploits I'll just go back to my original point but also let's put it let's keep this gardening metaphor for a 2nd because in my view authoritarian leaders are the dark gardeners of the soul you know that's a nice metaphor saying that again they're the target gardeners of the so what they are is they cultivate the seeds that as you just pointed out can already play in it before they came along that's why they're there but they know the seeds are in the soil but they can't more seeds can they also plant Morsi So yeah it's a great so the I don't disagree with you but but in but the reason I think we're focusing on the allure of authoritarianism that planting of the seeds is not something merely done to the people it's something that calls for something that's already in the bin nurture something that's already in the people and the people feel good I mean why you know those people vote for Hitler because they wanted to rebuild Germany and he promised to rebuild Germany they didn't know what they were getting into fully but he wasn't just planting stuff in them. You know agreed as I said I think the seeds of authoritarian regime are always there in in perhaps latent perhaps not perhaps very explicit in the minds of the people who are as you pointed out earlier are often poised to to follow a powerful leader and they're poised to follow it because they're already feeling rightly or wrongly in a sense of a sense of threat right now a lot of people who are who are white middle aged men like myself in this country feel rightly or wrongly as if their status is being threatened they are tracking the fact that they're no longer going to be. The sort of majority in the country that is whites and I think that it's fear that fear whether it's front and center in their consciousness which it is for some or whether it's just something that's running along like a buzz in the back of their ear that sort of fear is something that are. A authoritarian the right sort of person can come along and stoke that makes sense and it got Lloyd Wright Yeah I mean you know but is there also perhaps another type of seed about one type of sea that's already there and they can cultivate this sort of this fear of loss of status and things like that but but But what about something more like an author or Terry in personality type something that some people have since adore and people have had this thought that maybe some people are just maybe it has to do with you know high reactive versus low reactive infants that those kinds of studies I mean what do you think about that idea that you know some of us just have a greater tolerance and even love for change variety diversity and other people really crave a certain kind of stability control uniformity and that's a different kind of seed that could be exploited and cultivated by an authoritarian I think you know there has been work in as you guys know in social psychology among other. As have have talked about the different ways in which different sorts of moral views and different psychological views that underpin them on different sides of the political fence in this country I think there's a lot of value to that research on the other hand I often think that it's too simple to just say that some people have an authoritarian impulse and others don't I think given the right in the right context given you know if you're on the lifeboat of perceive that you are you're going to be looking for a strong captain to lead the way I think that's a natural thing for people I think the other see that I'd want to focus on is the idea that I mentioned earlier which is that thought that. That sense of superiority when we think one of the things that people really want to feel in their lives is a sense of strength they want to feel that they're strong and they're part of a tribe that strong they want to feel as if they've got things figured out it's it's comforting to think that and again cultivated by the right sort of person that sort of desire to want to feel like you are on top can end up with a politics that's not really just about us 1st as them but about us over them. My God I was thinking of Donovan how much. I want to add a thing about the psychological research on authoritarian personalities I mean this research has gotten more sophisticated more and imperiously rich but they would agree with something you said a lot of non authoritarian people they have these test of authoritarian personalities a lot of people who don't pass the test of authoritarian personality type can still be triggered to support authoritarianism when the when like external threats arise and so you know the war on terrorism you can even get people who don't pass these deaths but there's still a difference between the kind of readiness that people have to respond their work seems to show there's still a difference in the kind of reading this that gets a not authoritarian personality type to respond. And endorse authoritarianism and the tearing personality type in takes like an external threat in the one case but that's a that's a complicated thing but let's get some callers in here because we've got a fairly long lineup of them. You're listening to Philosophy Talk we're talking about the allure of authoritarianism with Michael Lynch We'd love to have your comments or question 18052599171805259917 And Joe from Petaluma is on the line welcome to well as we talked Oh thank you it seems to me that authoritarian government. Any. One. option 'd and so I wonder where Terry. Is a critique Oh well it will order so. People. Lives with the word and I wonder if policy is. In thinking maybe quick. Solutions to problems with the order people think about what you don't write it. Under and of sort. Of pointer so thanks for that thanks for the question Joe Tso Michael what do you think I'm fortunately guys I we had a technical glitch I couldn't hear Joe's question could you just repeat real quick question has to do roughly with with is that. Authoritarianism as a critique and begins at least as a critique of the seeds of the Liberal Order and its failings and it grows out of the failings of the liberal orders but then it's like a misdiagnosis because it's a mistaking pretty that's roughly it Yeah well I think that certainly just. Of the things that we were we were talking about I mean as Joe mentioned Plato thought that democracies Ventura collapse and they often collapse into you know things like all of Archy's because they can among other things other things serve to unite the diverse points of view that's what they're interested in is freedom the idea that democracies want freedom and they want to do 1st set of. Opinions but then they get what they want and they they don't have a mechanism for uniting them and pointing them all in the same direction and. Plato thought well that's bad news for democracy p Yeah today people do that later democracy was the 2nd worst form of government the worst form was tyranny would. Mark as it was going to inevitably devolve Right exactly because it's because freedom ends up with too much freedom. For the Rocio enormous breakdown is anarchy people don't respect their elders and things like that and then and then people freak out and want at all costs. So I want to ask you a question though coming from that people often say democracy is the worst form of government except for all the rest that Churchill thing but actually the way you talked about it and the allure of authoritarianism I wonder what the heck is the allure of democracy is this a I got a cut I got a kind of regard all these others I've got to regard the usurping gets. Free and equal citizens not free and equal citizens are you serving gets what's a lure of democracy given how divided and contentious political life is that's a super great question and I think I don't I don't think I pretend to have the right answer to that but I think that's the question we should be asking ourselves right now and what I will say is this I think the allure of democracy is precisely imbedded in the point that the church also famous aphorism that that Josh pointed out which is that democracy really appeals only when you're conscious of what the alternative. So are when you forget what the alternatives are when a sense of history he is lost when you really you've generations forget what happens when there aren't diverse points of view what happens are never to plea when somebody was given all the power because you know and evidently it's true power corrupts when that happens when people forget like that they forget the allure of democracy they forget the allure which is a that what I'm claiming at least right now is that it's it's a loris is partly negative it's based on a reaction to the ways things go when we don't respect the idea that we all have a right to contribute to the we are governed that's a powerful and bracing for let's get a caller in here before the break I'll be from Oakland and what Welcome to fall as we talk o.b. With your comment or question about Michael can you hear Obie I can't. Wear the Ok so tell me requests and I'll repeat it to Mike Obi he can't hear you for his I'm not Ok I think this discussion is extremely historical and is a bias toward assuming society is just made up of a bunch of individuals that have groups. Study of fascism in the 20th century through which shows that. What happens when the Liberal Order democracy falls apart the economy falls apart the ruling class which controls the media educational institutions the church so on so forth and is is is motivated to do and I meet the lower middle class. To scapegoat other people and for the benefit of the class so basically this this lacks a class analysis and it's really historical Ok thanks o.b. I'm going to put that question to. Michael I'm going to summarize it for he thinks our discussion so far has been a historical because it lacks it lacks an understanding of the fact that studies not just made up of individuals It maes of groups and he also said it lacks a class analysis and so I don't know the mechanism is really that the economy falls apart and then at that moment the ruling class scapegoats the local Yeah right I should say in our defense that that's sort of what we were getting at in saying that propaganda is a really powerful tool in this right authoritarians use propaganda they day they narrate the social life in Iran and one time one feature of that is precisely finding a scapegoat but what do you think what do you think well I think obviously class is a big. Big element in any political story and you know it's right to be reminded of that fact but I also think that you guys are right the propaganda is certainly a mechanism a chief mechanism of the of an authoritarian rule and when I was talking about those signs on the highway to authoritarianism. One of them is that the executive branch starts using our propaganda to reinforce that mythic past narrative that we were talking about before and I think that's you know it's pretty clear that that meant those mechanisms in the old days meant trying to control the newspapers for example in certain authoritarian states which you know has more towards tottering as I'm but right now of course. The newspapers as much as I love them are not the prime prime ways to get your message across Yeah what that message yeah that's me but that's for better or for worse because it's a complicated media landscape now with social media and you've written a lot about that it will take up the more pressing issues of this type when we return you're listening to philosophy. Talk with thinking about the allure of authoritarianism with Michael Lynch from the University of Connecticut author of know it all society with authoritarianism on the increase around the world what can we do to stem the rising tide to create new laws control social media and propaganda outlets educate the young and civic virtues work on our own hearts and minds turning the tide against tyranny when Philosophy Talk continues. On Monday Oct 14th come join us for a live recording of philosophy talk on the campus of San Francisco State University will be thinking about sanctuary cities with philosopher Shelley will cover the event is free and open to the public more information loss we talked on Origin That's next Monday October 14th 4 o'clock Jack Adams hall on the State campus. The on. How can we push back against authoritarians who want to be the boss of us all and make life unfair I'm can tailor and this is philosophy the program that questions everything except your intelligence I'm just Laddie Our guest is Michael Lynch from the University of Connecticut and we're asking about the allure of authoritarianism and we've got another caller on the line that we really want to get to read from Berkeley welcome to Vasa talkie What's your comment regarding Good morning I think in terms of Egypt to have to make an exception better to go to the region 33000000 Egyptians sort of crowd out of the park but what they ended up where a Muslim Brotherhood which went probably again and Morsi was going to the secular and sort of Egypt Secretary don't care what religion you are and he only spent a year and a half in office the impulse is distorted version of Islam but what we have now strong leader I don't want a dictator still strong why do we need him because if you're dealing with 3rd you have this bunch of bloody thirst in the final killing and Egyptian soldiers every week so we need him what is happening but I would opt out of whack. They're just a guy who doesn't have any credential at all to lead and most of them are against the current. You know I'll rest in Egypt you need you need a c.c. Because he is putting a clamp on the terrorists and actually what is pushing this time demonstration officers every week 5 or 6 beautiful Egypt men and women Thanks thanks for the call you sounds like you really know the situation in Egypt well going to put this to Michael so Eat Ass says you have to make an exception of Egypt because Assisi is telling on terrorism there's lots of chaos we need a strong leader the claim is a genuine danger there's a genuine danger and there is the end the end what you do in response to a genuine danger not a made up danger you need a strong leader when you think of that thought Michael. I think it's it's you have to be very careful because I mean I'm not going to announce on Egyptian politics I'm no expert on that but I will say that it's always tempting to think that we're in that place where we need that theater we're in it right now it's very difficult to tell when you're in that situation where you just think you're in that situation even if you are in that situation I mean I mean America thought of itself as in that situation we passed the Patriot Act and the Patriot Act was a nightmare right it was an abdication of fundamental things about democracy is democracy that cheap Ok we're in a dangerous situation democracy can't deal with it do you believe that I mean does democracy really lack the resources to deal with external threats and all that without giving away the fundamental tenets of devout I think that's a tempting thought but I hope it's a vote and I agree with you about that I hope it's a false thought too because you know and I think actually the history of the 20th century has examples where democracy did not respond well you just mentioned one. Also where it started to become undemocratic and will in the south but there are other course there are other situations in which democracies did respond Well I mean if you think about how democracies responded at least some of them in World War 2 were specially you know in in in war time of course there were under democratic things done people were rounded up and put in camps in our country in the United States but also there were as. There were there were norms reinforced by the Congress but but Michael I read something in preparation for this show a piece in Foreign Affairs that was actually pretty bracing it's said the victory of the Democrat democracies over the tele Terry Ans In World War 2 blinded us to blinded us. To the weaknesses of democracy and made us underestimate the strength of their terror and regimes that put the appeal be because a lot of the victory was due to contingencies contingencies one of the contingency was that the United States was this huge Continental poet great resources but if the European democracies and European totalitarians had just like squared off there's no telling where that would have gone and there's no telling what the what the totalitarian societies would have become there's no telling what the democratic societies would have come without this be him off that was sitting on the sidelines and then brought tons and tons and tons of armaments there's no telling what would have happened had Hitler listened to his generals and not gone yeah I mean there's for of course there's going to be a lot of continued season of course that's right and it's also right to remind ourselves of what we were talking about earlier in the show which is that in my view at the end of the 20 s. At the end of the 20th century and maybe partly because of our look in the beginning part of the century which is you know really what you're talking about is we were lucky we were lucky if that's And I think that's not completely right but I think it's right enough it's a good enough point to take this lesson from it which is to see that what happened is that by the end of the 20th century we sort of had forgotten that we were lucky we were we forgot that democracy needs a constant constant you know work to make it right democracy is you know like a marriage it's not just going to go well just based on what's happen in the past you've got to put work into the belly shirt So let's think about that work I mean you know we're witnessing a dangerous rise of authoritarianism around the globe I mean what can we all do to stem the tide of that I mean as votes as educators organizers What is this work that we can actually put said. And that's that is indeed a hard question I have I think that like a lot of people I think maybe it's going to come down to a 2 tiered approach my view on the one hand you need to actually double down on your on your institutions if as we were been talking about authoritarianism is is a matter of you know. Sort of punting on the rule of law on you know on on enforcing sort of property propaganda across the media culture poisoning poisoning the media culture in that way and a variety of other things that we talked about then I think that what we need to do is think about what civic institutions can provide a ball worked about and that means for example our education system you mentioned that in the set in the set up that's sort of a no brainer in my view civics is a really important one but you know sometimes we need to remember that things that are truisms are called True truisms for reasonable guy kids are true and Civics is a really important thing to teach our kids I agree it is a wise man once said a rejection of objective truth invites despotism and the same person also added that academia is being complicit in devaluing objective truth that was person with a certain Michael Lynche. Do you still feel that way do we have a job not just in high schools with civics lessons but we educators and 2nd you know at universities have a have a responsibility to to push back by you know making our students allergic to obfuscate and propaganda by you know training them in methods of investigation inquiry I think we do I think that's the critical part of our function has University educators has to try to supply people not just with the skills but with concepts they need to recognize the sorts of distinctions that we've been talking about on the show but I also think I just want to share this conversation that you guys are having about the education I think that's important I don't deny it but here's the thing about cuts to. Designed for democracy especially our democracy it doesn't have very much in it that is meant to. Cull Cait through constitutional means civic virtue does it basically leave citizens as they are with all their contradictions intact and then you fight it out through the vote in politics I mean how do you design a polity and the Greeks used to believe in the cultivation of civic virtue as a matter of like you know basic design how do we design a polity in which the polity as such is committed to the constant the cultivation of certain democratic virtues because without those I think it's kind of hopeless to data to. Yeah so how do you know I don't know how to design a polity from the ground up. You know frankly you know I'm a I'm an academic I'm lucky if I can you know figure out which shoe to put on so ask me a hard question like this I don't know what to say but I do know this I think that . When we talked about I talked about a 2 tier approach I said yes civic institutions are important teaching civics is important but it's a little wider than just teaching civics if you want to talk about a polity and he want to talk about our public you're actually talking about Avant bunch of individuals and one of the things that all of us need to do is examine our individual attitudes and our attitudes towards our own beliefs and our attitudes as Josh put it towards truth I mean one of those signs on the along the road for authoritarianism is the idea that the leader thinks that truth is whatever he says that it is that truth is in the hands of the powerful he is the powerful so he gets to decide what the facts are Henner and pointed out that before the authoritarian leader can crash the reality and make it bend to his will through power he has to believe that he can never make a mistake he can never mentor. And I think that we see that happening right now in our country I mean. Sharpie gate was a huge beautiful example of this sense that we're we're you know that the president has said he be wrong but I think look that's what the problem is is that a lot of people are willing to sort of go along with that attitude yeah no there's definitely a lot of people within our in front of their party affiliation I know who are definitely willing to go along with that attitude and that depressing no I'm going to thank you for joining as it's been an authoritative but none of the word terror in the conversation Michael thanks so much for having me guys I guess has been Michael Lentz He's a professor of philosophy from the University of Connecticut he's author of many things most recently know it all society truth an arrogance in political culture so judge you got any authoritative. Look at you know I like the idea that Michael has and we can be bright gardeners of the soul right for each other not just educators but for fellow citizens cultivate the seeds of honesty cultivate the seeds of of tolerance or at least or maybe even love for change and diversity in progress and all these other things and you know what here's another thought. Dostoyevsky the Grand Inquisitor he seem to think that release Yvonne seems to think that people have such a terror of their own personal freedom that they would rather embrace tyranny let's cultivate desire to be free I totally agree with you I totally agree with you but I don't think they're just people as they are just take them as they are naturally prone to this they're prone to both the dark side and the light side and so to build a polity you can't just say we're going to take the people as they are but once you are taking the people as they are then you're wondering with what rights do you cultivate me this way that I so I think pull shared political life is an extraordinarily complicated thing but you know what this conversation continues at philosophers corner at our online community of thinkers where a model with no apologies whatsoever to Descartes is Cotto of a blog Oh I think therefore I blog and you can become a partner in our community by visiting our website for us if we talked over our g. And if you have a question that wasn't addressed in today's show or if you're bedeviled by a conundrum in your own life and could use some philosophical insight We'd love to hear from you email us at conundrums at Philosophy Talk dot. No let's hear it from that tirade to fast talk in shows the 62nd philosopher in chilled Not always but quite often a coup occurs the new leader of a nation steps in to crack down that leader is a member of the military and quite often not a general but a colonel think of Colonel Gadhafi and all Oliver North a kid in there is a colonel in Sudan in 169 Bolivian 171 recently in each year and there's I want to increase in the late 1860 s. Known as the regime of the colonels in Guatemala 954 when Carter was ousted by a different Colonel the CIA was behind that one surprise surprise insurrections inside armies or even called colonels coups a term of art for internal coups instigated by a factor of the military and not the military establishment by colonels Well generally a self-styled populist revolution is a revolt against the elites generals are about as a leader. You can get and General is educated probably went to a military school might speak French probably plays bridge with the prime minister or El Presidente a is uniform is tailored he has a nice haircut he has a staff has a wife who is good at rearranging furniture and seating charts he plays golf has a solid mistress with an enormous bosom who wants to be a singer generals are emblems of authority with their medals and salutes but do not generally exercise authority but in most of the time at state dinners opera openings museum dollars policy meetings and delegating the neck and lead a coup they have it made the governing of the populace stirs them not at the powers that be are worried about revolutions the general can issue snipers and tanks and go back to the cocktail party and you're going to get privates and sergeants lead a coup they don't have the infrastructure the air of command the boldness the plan the impulse the followers the ambition but the Colonel is the interface between general and army probably came up through the ranks probably works out good looking guy might be very religious or appears to be might drink heavily were people like those out of the communist from great heights where the communists are not what the people also seem to like was on their left alone to watch their stories in their cause the homes colonels are middle managers with machine guns that's who leads a coup colonels who also prevent strangers from coming in and taking our jobs and colonels harbor great bitterness is because the generals get all the glory where the people also understand because they also did not get glory and the guy across the street places music to lump all this translates into anger about the injustice of it all cookies in cut chips no more money's too tight grumblings and bearings gets stirred up by blogs and radio and t.v. And right wing newspapers and before you know what tanks in the street generals and presidents fleeing in helicopters the colonel moves into the big house to drink all that Pencey wine in the basement traders are lined up against a wall and shot in every else's Pappy until the schools are shut down because the picture of the colonel in the auditorium just isn't big enough but at 1st people don't mind and I thought Terry in is just what they want punishment revenge the people like the autocrats of the people mad the comedy isn't funny anymore because we're to welcome people who are sad that we can't be racist like we used to be which wasn't racist at all we're just too sensitive anymore people are sick of Mexico taking our jobs what jobs I don't know they're gone it's about time you got somebody you can look up to who gets things done we love a brute of a lie. In a patter everything is better because the colonel says so elite but not too late the general had a limo crew has a jeep gentle had a driver Colonel's a surgeon general had a mansion Colonel punters a mansion and machine guns the accountants our biggest American colonel outside of Oliver North of course was any Jackson he was a general but seemed like a colonel hot button hot headed with strong opinions about bankers generals have to believe in history colonels make their own generals have tactics and strategy studied in books colonels play it by ear generals know the truth that makes them sad colonels make their own truth sadness is for losers and the people love the colonels until they don't I got. Philosophy is a presentation of k o w local public radio San Francisco and the trustees of Leland Stanford June University copyright $29000.00 our executive producer David Demarest and Tina come into the senior producer is Devon strollers Laura McGuire is our director of research Cindy Prince Boehm is our director of marketing Thanks also to Meryl Kessler Angela Johnston and Lauren Schachter support for for us we talk comes from Stanford University and from the partners at our own one community of think the views expressed or less expressed on this program to not necessarily represent the opinions of Stanford University or of our other from the but even when they're true and reasonable The conversation continues on our website Philosophy Talk dot org where you too can become a partner in our community of thinkers and Josh and I'm Ken Taylor thank you for listening thank you for think Colonel Sanders it is great to have you here as nice to me you're going over to one home strivers you in one little bowl and you're 9 I'm hungry. I was a chemistry student as an undergraduate and I remember some of the science students had taken a philosophy class and had been incensed because one of the professors had brought back a quote from Vicki Stein in which he referred to natural science as the so-called laws of nature. Composer David life and his philosophical tour de force for percussion that's next time on new music from Bowling Green tomorrow evening at 11 on k l w San Francisco later today on This American Life a story about doubt and 3 people who let those doubts spread and gain mentum and convince officials and convince the whole community and finally those doubts turn into a kind of fact we're revisiting this investigation that we did with the Marshall Project in Pro Publica that went on to win a Peabody Award and also a Buick surprise and now is the basis of the new Netflix series unbelievable this later today 1 o'clock this afternoon on Calle w. San Francisco that will be followed at 2 by b.b.c. 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News of nice cork nice people doing nice things Prince Harry no relation is suing the British tabloid paper of Rupert Murdoch as well as his industry rival Mirror Group for allegedly hacking his phone still again phone hacking This is from a source called by line by line investigates a British news site in a major escalation they say of Prince Harry's war in Fleet Street which is the legendary home of British news publications the Duke of Sussex filed suit in London court alleging both newsgroups misused his private information for stories it may be the 1st time a serving member of the royal family enters the witness box and trials against Rupert one of his relatives maybe and an appearance by the prince in the witness box would immediately make this an historic moment in British law said one of the sources the Separately of legal action was filed by his wife Megan doctors of Sussex alleging the misuse of a private family letter Prince's claim won't proceed to trial until early 2021 let me tell you from personal experience that's fast at the soonest he says and will focus on part of the activities of private detectives commissioned by The Sun newspaper still in business owned by Knight's Corp and News of the world which I went out of business as a result of the phone hacking charges were way back when the sun's owners have always denied any wrongdoing on behalf of the paper. The newspaper chains up till now have had a strategy of settling settling individual hacking claims out of court the goal of course was to prevent a case of make serious allegations about a top level cover up of interest industrial scale wrongdoing from being publicly aired is.