It was pretty much immediately clear if you came here I mean. That it was not going to be an easy interview. You can react when you said I know I know what I was wondering in the morning right you know you do a lot of sexes Yeah we had a notebook full of questions and things that we had called from all these articles or dread that pretty quickly became useless to those asking who is. Using And whenever I asked about being the 1st female gondolier you know the 1st woman in 100 years to do this or to notes. That it could be read that everywhere and then let a little so little section over and over and over and over that's all said one of the literate people thinks would show already done. This is a very frequent journalism problem but you've become boring to the person you're interviewing you start flailing exactly every word we feel like you do live anything more for you. What do you do you know we just thought maybe we should just be quiet probably. We are about to make a tight turn. So. We moved away from the tourist centers of the city and into these smaller canals and. As we go around these tight turns. Alex would sing out to let the other boats know that we were coming or so here we have a frustrating this is why I shout out my direction in order to avoid accidents because you can achieve the goal of arriving. You know we go into these beautiful archways. Past hidden gardens you don't necessarily need ice in order to lure appreciate a gondola. Have each other that's a different song. On the chance you're going to be singing. Anything. So this is a beautiful entrance which. At one point our gondola cut through this rectangle of light. Shining from an open kitchen door. It was nice I mean this side of Venice was unexpected and really beautiful but the whole time we were sitting on or no pads and we were definitely quietly panicking. Well you know. I didn't know this at the time but I saw some you know I was like they're maybe a little too young I think Alex is. Testing us in maybe a little bit too. We don't have enough experience maybe that was my concern what I liked the I like the intimacy as well and I like the. There was an all this to which I liked. Did you ever figure out what you. Sussed out for what was going on there for sure not on the boat but we we actually made plans to go out to dinner that night and considering how the book read what we thought at this point we should return the swear one and leave the recorder at home and just try to have a conversation anyway we sat down outside and very few people in the restaurant were the only table outside they had to open and we only got there to we should say we met Alex's girlfriend right and were making things were just kind of making small talk and yet turns out turns out Alex his girlfriend is a photographer and she'd done this photo essay of Alex. And the photos are really striking like one of them Alex is just like drowning under the water there's one that's just like Alex's back is to the camera this ripped a muscular back yeah like arms splayed like looking out the window over the city of Venice Venice is lone defender This is like so bad ass and like kind of like superhero style. So we were just chatting about the photos and asking our school friend like you know tell me a little bit more about what inspired you to take these photos and you know like small talk friendly stuff and she kind of was like you know it's just it's so strange you know we thought we thought it was so clear. We like the photos were so like they emphasized every masculine quality on Alex's body. We know in our artist statement you know we used all of the male forms in Italian you know like Louis which means he instead of Les which means she but everybody at the photo exhibit was like oh must have been a typo or you made a mistake and she's like which is funny because I'm Italian so I should know and I was like. Pronouns. He Alex she used he he Alex is a he is Alex trans like oh my gosh Alex is a transgender man. What did you. Do that means you in that moment. What I thought that meant. Was Alex was probably born in a body that he didn't identify with Yeah I mean mine was I didn't think transgender I didn't think I thought Alex is a guy of course Alex is a guy really I wasn't surprised were you surprised I wasn't that surprised me I was not saying that the Perfect I mean I would say that like flipping into he not a thing like like it was like Alex is he Alex is a he Alex is he he is sitting at the table with us Alex and his girlfriend very quickly it was like him I'm looking at him and then I start thinking about the story that we had come here to tell that was about all of the women things that she had done her her her her woman hero heroine 1st female in 100 years international symbol of female power you start thinking about that and it's like. Those things are really hard to square in your head. This real person is also these stories and how did that happen what has it been like for 20 years to be inside of that story when you're actually a man. Coming up Alex tells his side of the story which is not what you would expect at all and if you're interested in maybe seeing some of the pictures that was that Kristen and David just described. Go to our website Radiolab dot org We will link you to Alex's Web site which will get you to some of those photos that's at Radiolab dot org And stay with us you definitely do not want to miss the next part I there this is data from Nashville Tennessee Radio Lab a supportive and Progressive Insurance what their name your price till they provide it. Formation on a range of insurance coverage and price options more at progressive dot com 1800 progressive that's progressive. High This is shy Isenberg include Radio Lab is supported by and then indeed employers can post a job in minutes set up screener questions than 0 in on a short list of screen candidates using an online. Or in phone had indeed. Tune into the fog City Blues Wednesday nights from 9 to 11 it's your weekly digest of Blues in the Bay area and beyond each week we get down to business with local venue coverage in studio performances even some blues birthdays. I know now that. It's the best reason to sing the blues in the Bay Area. Join me Wednesday nights at 9 for the Fog City Blues on Calle w 91.7. Hey it's Jad Abumrad from Radio Lab Friday Feb 8th I will be at the Sydney Goldstein theater for a live conversation I'll be talking about all things Radio Lab and the art of storytelling at 7 30 pm Friday Feb 8th presented by City Arts and lectures and you can get tickets City Arts. There is a media sponsor for this event you can hear Radio Lab on Caleb Tuesdays at 10 pm and for information on the live event again go to City Arts dot net. I'm Robert Krulwich Radio Lab And today we're telling the story of Alex hay the 1st ever female going to air someone who seemingly broke through this 900 year old gender barrier and made headlines all over the world along the way except turns out Alex is in a woman. And after who knows how many articles but Alex this is the 1st time that he's telling his story to the public and so we should probably stop for a 2nd and talk about pronouns because this is really important for many transgender people in moments when Alex was publicly understood as a woman and was getting international press for it we've decided with Alex's permission to only use his name or his title of 1st female gondolier while some of the people interviewed for the story were unaware that Alex was transgender and do use female pronouns or do refer to him as a woman we were talking about and we will only use male pronouns. So after that dinner we made plans for the next day or so on his motor boat and he would just take us to a quiet spot and we would talk was the agreement on the water on the water shut up. There are. A lot. Ok And ahead of that we get a lot of false starts. What I don't know maybe I can ask as a bit Has anyone ever asked you what gender pronoun you prefer. Never. Ever so after getting some of the basics out of the way Alex kind of started at the beginning well you know it's a long story I was born transgender this is in Germany Alex tells us he was born with a female body but at a pretty early age knew himself to be a little boy I knew already before I went to school with 3 years I was standing on the toilet to be on site Alex says that you know for him he had the sense even when he was 3 that there should just be something on his body that wasn't there yeah yeah I was praying for peanuts every night. My my parents knew about it his parents were actually both doctors thing they knew but the they were not supportive. You know I heard them you know they were talking about all the weird stuff I did how he would rip the arms off of his Barbies coloring them like you know with a black pencil or destroying them or the weight Alex trust himself when there was a swimming lesson in the school I will say I want to give us a little pencil you call them the Back Bay sued for 4 boys and you know of course very aggressive as a child a lot of fights you know I got quiet I was quite a while and as a kid so now I can up about this but you know if it was a drama it was a drama The constant. Try of my mother to get this behavior out of me Alex says pretty early on as parents basically gave up on him the ignored me as much as a Good which was you know in a way of saving me because I could wear whatever I wanted to do whatever I wanted and then when Alex was 10 a little brother was born in. That was a shock. That was a terrible shock because. Basically it confirmed that my mother wanted. Desperately. At boy but she didn't accept me as her son that's what it was Alex said basically you know that was the 1st time he saw was like like it should look like Basically when a parent loves their kid. So when he was 15. He ran away from home escaped a handbook and in Hamburg you have a huge. District called some Polly where they have all the prostitutes and. All the bad sinks and that's exactly where I when some people kind of took him under their wing and got a job kind of figured out how to take care of himself I got lucky but I know also of very unlucky stories but I got lucky Did he ever think about transitioning to a male body he says he thought about it at one point but in the eighty's when I was 15 the opportunities you're fed to become a men were very very. Poor In particular if you want to go down the road of surgery what I can remember from my family of us constant talks about how operations went wrong how they went wrong and what went wrong and so for me to go in a hospital to do an operation that's not going to happen and of course many transgender people don't end up having surgery but anyway after Hamburg at some point Alex fell into filmmaking and ended up in San Francisco working in in the film industry and so 1906 he got involved in a production that sent him abroad to go scope out locations for a film that was going to be shot in Venice. Or shows up in Venice in 1906 How old is this 29 I think also he's older he's not a kid at this point originally He's just supposed to say a few days. Kind of just enough time to do some research and scope things out but somewhere along the way he sees these guys rowing their boats down the canal and for reasons he can't entirely explain his just transfixed. I was fascinated by this kind of Fortune I was fascinated by the rolling style if you will forward so you actually see where you're going so it was just the 1st unaided and I just want to try it out myself and then Julie Alexander actually meeting a gondolier and asks like do you think I could do this and he actually ended up down at the gondola station as an apprentice. Did they ask you Did they ask you why you wanted to study I remember the 1st day I was introduced by. The head boss of the group Ok so this is Alex she's going to be all mascot because they saw Alex as a woman and there had never been a woman gondolier most of them sought for this was like kind of a joke there was a very old who later said Now we have gone Leo was kids. For the 1st 7 months. Alex says he basically just picked up after the guys you were the bus boy for everybody so you needed to to clean their boats and to ship the world like 1020 times a day he says it's really backbreaking grueling work for somebody that everybody everybody sees as a woman you think this would be like the worst place on earth but you know actually those 1st those 1st months in the city just kind of with the boys dirty jokes sort of this great. Alex knew all the gondoliers nicknames walked in talked and acted like they're cursed in the same way and he says he felt like he was part of this tradition of you know learning from these old guys who are mentors to him it was really like maybe the best time of my in my life . It was it was like he was home and then the trouble began. It started with a journalist and us thought that it would then fight and. Say this is reporter Consuelo Terry and we met in the noisy cafe and sort of started in $96.00 set with a translator when going sort of was a collaborator often was often a she was a cub reporter in Venice working for a very politically progressive newspaper and she was out looking for her big story and she runs into or out of the encounter each I think of you saw Consuelo saw Alex at one of the gondolier stations and she was like. Well obviously this struck her attention I mean. It looked to her like there was this woman rowing among men and like seeming to kind of blend right in their magazine of minutes and I said this a bit of sort of was attracted by this vision unusual vision for the nice so she. Thought that the. She said I camped out for like a whole morning and. Sickly just watched Alex's behavior. But. 'd 'd Alex didn't want to talk to her that I can't talk about it thought or Basically I'm just a student there teaching me told make this into a thing it get I mean they say he says that he would. Listen I recognize that you don't want to talk to me that you're apprehensive and that this might be difficult to go down and I get that this might even damage your reputation with the other gondoliers but. He did a round thing this is an important story likely to be good only good money you'll get your Pioneer can't ignore you and so Consuela said the 2 options I'm going to write the story no matter what so you can either talk to me and we can do the story together or I can write what I think. That will. You know if it can't go out now and she said it will. And why wasn't Consuelo persuaded that she should wait while there were journalists coming from all over the place you know I think the story was going to get out there and somebody was going to write it and Alex never sort of stopped and was like Listen Consuelo or whoever let me just tell you the real story the way out of this is to speak and yet he stays quiet right you do have a sense why I mean so just to kind of like like data points that might be helpful in understanding kind of where we were so we're talking 1907. Just to give you like a corollary thing where we were in our discourse around this was like Ellen degeneracy I think that year this is this is so hard but I came out on her show I think I realized that I am. I can't say a word why can't I say the word and like shortly after it was canceled killing general was just a few years ago like we didn't even really have a grip on what transgender was that wasn't a conversation that we were having in public can you imagine what it would be like to be like Guys guys guys don't worry though I'm actually a man that would've gone over so well with the dudes at the gondola station Yeah so what ended up happening after Consuelo and Alex at the at the showdown about the article Well couple days later Alex is on the way to the gondola station I found it in the news 50 shop the headline. A woman is challenging the gondoliers like. It's going to hell. So it's in the newspaper stand Alex shows up at the gondolier station and of course there's a big hello a big unfriendly Hello yeah just like oh hello gondola era. We didn't really think that we do everything to teach you well you know you're challenging us Alex is a lot of the gondolier stop talking to him they wouldn't even let him wash their boats and then you know the no of course and the other ones who said I told you in the beginning of a told you she was just going to blab to the press a woman is a good singer did or did to them the whole thing you know was like a little bone becoming a huge huge thing. By the way this is right this is coming right before Alex is about to take the very 1st exam. There's actually a series of exams and it gets a little complicated but eventually anybody who wants to be a gondolier has to take this rowing test and by all accounts Alex was good. We talked to the guy who was the head of the gondoliers Association at that time i.e. This guy Fulvio Scarpa was like. More. The other manga. And this is the head of the guild Yeah and we also talked to this legendary rower named Franco Korea. And he was also like well means of all Alex is better than most of the guys. And I don't care even. So anyway Alex takes the test and I failed the exam which would've been that by itself would have been such a big deal because a whole bunch of people failed the 1st exam but the thing was there was a feeling that like something deeply unfair was happening. To me according to Consuelo a lot of people started to think maybe the fix was a voice there fared better than other boys who did not feel Alex's suspiciously pretty much all the people that passed were sons of gondoliers or from gondolier families because if at the right last name. So. Then I got angry I got a lawyer Alex thought this was going to bring attention to how corrupt the license practices how corrupt this association is I want to examine this repeated for everybody and this lawyer was negotiating in the gondoliers Association was like if we let everyone retake the test that would basically be admitting that we favor certain families over other families that was exactly what I want but it's not what they wanted they said we don't want the bad press of this but then and this is another moment according to Alex where his story just gets hijacked my lawyer negotiated without my permission according to Alex without telling him the lawyer together with the gondoliers Association dug up this old law that says because Alex is a woman I mean he's not he's a man but they thought he was a woman and this law says that as a woman he had the right to take the test again this time with women judges in the boat when she came back and said Ok here's what we're going to do do you remember what you said I was 1st. Very upset. That was not about I wanted has nothing to do with man or woman do you think she was your champion because she identified with you you know for sure it was not my story it's her story but unfortunately for Alex as soon as a lawyer did that. It became everyone's story because suppress their language of. The next 2 months every paper in town was writing about their spending by a gondoliers examination and they found it a mistake that going to a bank from then the story went global very much catches the crowd you have people become banks 1st woman to succeed seeing 1st female one with good company or fight a male to be good to me or blames children. And then things escalate into a full blown gender battle gondoliers are of course super pissed because of all this press that they're getting if we talked a couple of key like gondolier guys Alexander I. Think they have some thoughts and feelings about him she had to pass a test she didn't it's a disaster Alex is at one point things got so bad that it's one of them saying I'm going to wait for you on the small on the street and with a knife and kill you so I grabbed the guy 1st that was your knife and here. Get it out you know to it that was one of the so many of those so on the one side Alex said the gondoliers want to knife him on the other it was terrible close and feminism kicked in Alex said he had all these women rushing in to save him wait wait you want me to like because they thought he was a shady we read in the paper that she had tried to take the test and had failed and called foul saying that the Venetians were main a sexist and wouldn't let women become gondoliers This is Gene capital She was active in the community of Venetian women rowers at the time what women by the way like there aren't any Also there were any women gondoliers at that time but there's a whole community of female rowers they have teams and they race being doing the nation running for over 20 is and being a female rower in Venice. Was very difficult Elena this woman rower I was talking to just a week it was with my rowing partner was like I'm routinely when I'm out on the water like old men yell at me and say hey what you doing in return back home in the kitchen cooking or cleaning your house why are you here don't you know you're just a Cantone you're just a side dish people told me when it comes to racing there's a big discrepancy in the prize money the men again ing like 4 times as much prize money as the women we are 'd now trying to. Convince the city of Venice who gives prices that we are like men we're not the less then we're all these women who've been you know incrementally busting their ass to try to be taken seriously in the sport we're here we can do it and when they saw all this press about Alex fighting the gondoliers they reached out I sent one of the other consider others down to speak to you know come to our club and come and work with us and help us out help us teach people you got your back but she wasn't interested no. Because Alex there are 2. 1st of all you cannot compare the going to rule as with racing there are 2 different styles of rowing and 2nd of all the sense I got was that it was kind of like I don't want to row with you you guys all wear matching white skirts like not my thing so I remember there was a lot of resentment for a woman to help and to be won over as in this battle for the equality from people they see me in their convinced that I'm a feminist that I am one of them in the I'm not and all of this comes to a head. In October of 2004. When Alex Nasri take the test and this time with Champion women rowers in the boat judging them there was a lot of pressure everything about this test is supposed to be a secret location of the test the path that Alex is going to row of it no clue where we're going to go but suspiciously as Alex stepped into the boat he noticed that there was a huge crowd lined up all the way down the canal and with us and their friends and their shouting in yelling she was screaming all kinds of swear words and all kinds of go home. I. Can't imagine the hate here female rowers in the boat glaring at him there's press lined up along the entire way plus troops plus every everybody else it was full of people and 5 like them in a ring. I tried to block it all I hope because I needed to do this and. I wanted to do a good performance. And I wasn't even. It was hell one of the worst. Worst days of my entire life. And on Bush that. That was we'll hello. Hello this is David from Berlin radio now to support it in part by the Alfred p. Sloan Foundation and also in Public Understanding of Science and Technology in the modern world more information about Sloan at w w w 2 Sloan. This Mardi calling from across Wisconsin Radiolab is supported by Indeed with indeed employers can post a job in minutes set up screener questions and then 0 in on a short list of screened candidates using an online dashboard more info at Indeed dot com. On the text or call will discuss the week long solidarity campaign with garment workers in Bangladesh they're demanding safe factories freedom of association and fair wages Bangladesh is the world's 2nd largest garment exporter but the 4000000 workers are among the worst paid in the world how are workers and Bangladesh organizing for fair wages and better working conditions and join the next your call with me Rose Aqil are and here tomorrow morning at 10 am without gospel music there would never have been a sale or an a wreath The frankly all of them have roots in the sanctified sounds of gospel music and these artists push the boundaries of what music could be I got to jazz he in the past is the opposite of this is not a club so I'm c.c. Wine and listen to the gospel roots of rock and soul from n.p.r. And you can hear that every Saturday in February at 1 o'clock in the afternoon right here on held up you. Hi I'm Robert Krulwich Radiolab a supported by Zip recruiter I don't know if you know anything about zip recruiter Let's suppose you need to recruit somebody for your business for your office you could I guess as friends you could put an ad out for everybody in the world to read zipper critter's ideas they have what they call a matching technology that presumably finds the right people for you and then goes and gets them to apply and right now Radio Lab listeners can try zip recruiter for free at Zip recruiter dot com slash Radiolab once again that zipper Cooder dot com slash r a d o l a b. Hey I'm Jad Abumrad and I remember coach this is radio and return now to a story from Kristen Clark and David Conrad about Alex hay transgender man who became somehow the 1st female gone in 923 years and thus an international feminist hero since ation and so we now find Alex being painted by everybody in town in colors that he doesn't particularly agree with yet and what's interesting is according Chris's just how easy it is to do that to someone Ok so. I'll tell you as we were doing the interviewing in the reporting I'm like I'm feeling like I have a good grip on Alex's story I'm feeling like Oh man I know what it feels like to be inside of a narrative that feels really icky and so I feel like I'm kind of getting it and I'm like understanding the full Alec's and like it's about all of these other things that have nothing to do with gender so Alex a story isn't about gender at all and for me that made sense because I was like in my life gender has been a box like even even when you're in the right even when you're in the right box gender is a box and it can feel shitty to be in that box and so I was like Yeah let's bust open those boxes together we're going to show you we're going to show people who you are Alex but then. We would have these moments where I would be like wait a 2nd. Like one night when we were in Venice we were like trying to park our boat on the way to a restaurant and like this guy is like trying to parallel park his boat and Alex is kind of sitting there like chuckling at him and you can hear like David chuckling in the background and so the 2 of them are like you know joking about it and then Alex says like he drives like a woman like an old lady. And I was like you know and we kind of rolled my eyes at it but then later at the dinner. He was like he was like you know no like I don't really think that like a real woman could do this job. And he knew like all like macho about it but you were shocked that I was saying such a macho thing remember that well of course you are very right woman can do everything but. This job is going to be very tough because. It's a really cool. Community I mean it's very cool rough. But when you said that when you said that I got so I was like I was so frustrated. And it was because I think I was attached to the idea of like it being equal you know I mean I was I was I'm is just like super confused like. I don't know I just I just want to know if it wants it but. Don't tell me what you. All admit in the moment I asked in a clumsy question do you feel that it was because you seem to be almost like prodding me you know having fun and winking at David and do you feel like you're fundamentally on a different team from me. I am on David's team. But you can't see that because he's you identify with me but there's not. There can help that how can I explain it to you let's put it this way when I'm in a group of women for example and they start to talk. I feel uncomfortable the check thing they have I called the chicken. It's not really my cup of tea you know I like it you can amuse me. But the minute they think that I am one of them it doesn't amuse me anymore and I feel uncomfortable and I don't I'm I'm. I'm a little alien there because they think I am one of them and I'm not when I'm as a boy's a little. If it is a nice group of boys which I like than we have the same type of few more and you know the same stupid jokes of a woman for Alex I think what was really striking is that whatever it is that makes him feel comfortable being seen as a man but not as a woman it runs very deep for me there is a difference between men and women not everybody or even every transgender person would feel this way but the way that he sees it if there were no differences there would be no one nor wish to do transition and there would be no more transsexuality and 6 like that if if it would be the same but this isn't 'd. So you are seeing him as like a gender doesn't matter can I go on and he was saying actually it does matter Yeah we cannot show us a simpler question when when does he actually become the 1st female gondolier. Also Alex couldn't get one of these 400 or so special gondoliers licenses because he failed the test but in 2005 I opened up my own business he figured out that if you partners up with businesses in town like hotels he can actually wrote for them privately at the time I was looking at all the loris and I found the most possible to open up my own business was out having a license so I did and so for years he was just kind of doing this quietly in. Alexandra she said not to go on the year she's not a good movie works for the whole town some of the gondoliers began to notice that Alex was rowing passengers without a license and of course they didn't like it she didn't pass a test saying like you can't do that she's not part of our team does not have drivers like you have to be a member of this organization you have to have a specific license in order to practice what we can say just not right where I got some threats Well both threats and. Damaging. Things like that all kinds of stupid little boys shit. So when they understood they cannot threaten me this way is then they pressured City Hall to change the law on. City Hall basically said like you can't row you can't roll a gondola with tourists in it without a law without a license and the law passed and was signed and it became the real law Yeah and so one day Alex is out on his boat and he just gets pulled over. And basically is told you're breaking this new law and so. I wanted to defend myself so we went on trial in court it was Alex is one lawyer city hall in the gondoliers Association therefore and lawyers for lawyers I saw. Last case any already. City Hall your. City Hall fights back case goes to the highest court in the land. The last again. In front of a court. With me a little stranger from out of nowhere now technically the decision just said hotels can provide for their customers the way that they need to so if they want to hire a chauffeur who happens to row in a gondola they can do that but what that actually meant was that now for the 1st time Alex could be considered a gondolier. Of us a huge deal less along the canals a woman powerless against the toiling up times Kamal woman takes on the nice gone the life out of date she covered tree when came in the 1st female gondolier rock the boat came in a limo and came in so this is where we get all of those articles we read before we came to Venice I don't know when he sees the story went all over the world and and every single one of our company the message was the same we have our 1st woman gondolier. This was. Not. So that was something that was unstoppable could not go in there and say Excuse me you know I'm not really identifying you know it was gone Ok it was done. Alex at this point in 2007 doesn't have any other income except for being able to market himself through hotels and eventually online and saw of course I need to website people are actively seeking out this person who has broken the gender barrier and become the 1st female gondolier in Venice sold to book I've been stupid to try to go against all this was already written so Alex decides to make his email his Facebook page and his website. All Prima gondolier or the 1st female gondolier. I'm wondering if trading a website with that name did that feel like you taking control of that narrative or was that narrative taking control of your decision on that website has nothing to do with what I have on but. That's a label you know I cannot change the label where seen on 20 years of history shut up. Alex told us he was talking to his therapist one day at this transgender Center they had near Venice and she said you know like in the cage This is like a cage for you you can get really out of this you know it's it's a difficult situation it's a very difficult situation but. But . By the time we met Alex he'd been living almost 10 years like this you know just kind of tween these 2 stories at night out to his close friends but by day giving these tours as the 1st female gondolier in Venice and every few months every new Susan these headlines would just regenerate 1st female gondolier 1st female gondolier 1st female and when we left Venice that's kind of where we left him. Kind of hanging in the middle of that. And the impression that we got is maybe that's just going to be how it always is for him. That. By the way we didn't see each other so fast forward 6 months we get an email from Alex he says he's in San Francisco. It's been happening in your life you know you had some news well you know. I remember we were sitting there will last talking in Venice and we were sitting on the terrace I remember that. I was already in the news it was something coming. But over I wasn't sure what it was. It was a very difficult year. Kind of depressed which you know I'm not I'm not a depressed person usually. And so I've us hanging out I was not moving much I was hanging out on my sofa and though was. Trying to think and I was. More and more every day I was and I think people are telling me that I was a she and other he I don't know why I got completely intolerant before I was like I don't care what they say to me I care that they're nice and now I was like I can't hear this and it was. Alex was about to turn 50 at this point. And it turns out that part of what was happening. Was that he was beginning to go through the early stages of menopause I was hot that was. Breaking out for nothing after fighting with the gondoliers fighting with the feminists This was like a final insult saw. I have this idea that hormones might help with how I feel I start to take the test or storm that was on the 7th of November which after 6 hours I get the 1st smile on my face in nearly a year you know felt good and the mood swings they stopped. So I'm now I'm like I knew me because I was looking in the mirror every day like this monster he decided to fight in San Francisco me with a doctor some people who wait like 2 years or 3 years before they start to do a surgery I want to do it now because for me it was something like now or never. So now I'm here in San Francisco with a top surgery on the trigger force that's about. To start this year with a body which is confirming me. People see me as the 1st woman that means something for many people it's not fair to them so you know I need to a need to say something and I changed on Facebook side a change the name now. And. I did already a statement on my on my old website there's a statement it says Dear guests colleagues and friends after holding myself back for 3 decades it's time for me to depart from my wrong body I am not changing who I am I'm becoming who I am. In his back in Venice now yeah. In any sense what that's going to mean for his job or his life. Lives no idea. There's no cure. I don't know how my was askin to be in the months it should drop I have no idea how my faces. In my body is going to look in the years see us all know we all leave it as a surprise oh it. Will. All . The idea. That's scary. Oh oh. Oh oh oh. All. Thanks to reporters Kristen Clark and David Conrad also thanks to Alexis Unger and summer and of course a huge thanks to Alex for sharing a very difficult story. Are you worried about what the response might be to it all if. You think this is boring me. I've been to all. I remember like we were sitting out on the balcony you said something bad I want to do another battle. But all. But if I have to. Because I will. Tell one person. You. Did. 7 go through. You know. This story was produced by any McKeown in Mali Webster with help Kristen Clarke and we got reporting in translation help from Valentino powers Florence you know and Marie so much. Colder. Than a dove bullied. Original music from Jeremy Bloom and Alex Overington. Let's see. Out of so you. Go Ok And on a very different note very belated No we would like take this moment to say. Goodbye to or to our our longtime reporter producer Brant a feral not only good but a bit like thank you times 50. To the 50th power yeah Brenna has been with us for many years and I think with the station he was over a decade I believe and done every single job that that you can imagine and so we hear Radio Lab and the whole station are going to miss you very very much we already do and still go and do even more but right now. Lot. Pull. Strings are more sheer. Although. I'm Robert Krulwich thanks for listening this is Kathleen herring calling from funny River Alaska Radiolab is produced by Jad Dilling Keefe is our director of sound design Soren Wheeler is senior editor Jamie York is our senior producer our staff includes Simon Adler David gabble Tracy hunt Matt Kielty Robert Krulwich anaemic you in the teeth Nasser Melissa O'Donnell Ariane whack and Molly Webster with help from Valentino bosun Eenie So how power neither follow me Phoebe weighing and Katie Ferguson our Fact Checker is Michelle Harris. Hello I'm Jeff Hayden host of your legal rights where every week on our guest and I will discuss topics of law both for the entertainment and knowledge for our listeners in California in a broad every 4th Wednesday case also run the collar night feature where you can call attorneys who are standing by to answer your questions confidentially and off the air during the radio broadcast that's your legal rights Wednesday night at 7 o'clock right here on your 91.7 or k w dot org. Are you looking for some exciting new music to your playlist or got to get I'm Greg we share some of our favorite records that are underneath the mainstream radar this week. On Saturday it's going to 11 pm here. On this week's cultural. Tree. Making detectives. Bangladesh. And Canada and they discuss and bring the theories maybe. To take to inside all of us. The really king with the Nigerian crime might. With a c to this reach is contradictory this complex. It's no surprise. To us for their stories. And it's pulling no punches. Mystery and crime stories. After the latest b.b.c. . Hello I'm David Harper with the b.b.c. News European Union leaders have responded with exasperate to the vote by the British parliament to reopen talks on the banks it deal agreed to 2 months ago the Irish government President Emmanuel macron of France and the European Union insisted the accord could not be renegotiated Gavin Lee is in Brussels it pretty clear there is absolute unity right now with leaders saying this is not about punishing the u.k. This is about the 4 warning that the u.k. Had before this vote that we would look at other areas but with all agreement $585.00 pages took 18 months after arguing sweating finally there was a deal now what Donald Tusk said last night he's the head of European Council he said you can look at the political declaration which is the vague broad sweep of what the trade deal may look like in future with the u.k. But trees may say no I don't want to look at that it has to be there to.