This is from public radio broadcasting on k. Ajax Aspen and k c j x Carbondale. Just a quick note this story contains some profanities like you know a couple So just know that before we get going. You are listening to Radio Lab radio. N.y.c. . Hey I'm Jad Abumrad I'm Robert Krulwich Radio Lab And today we're going to start Ok so let's start with our producer a lot of Nasr Well let's just let's just go back to San Francisco on a particular day at a particular time and a particular woman Hi is this Sarah Jane Yes a woman named. Sarah Jane to visit San Francisco the particular date was September 22nd the particular time 1975 I mean so surging on this Monday morning she wakes up early structure 9 year old off at school runs a few errands. Then she drives downtown to this this big fancy hotel with the name of the hotel that think it's a St Francis is not I'm 87 years old don't expect me to remember little details like that Ok fair enough you know. But in any rate you know I parked in the parking garage across. Right across the hotel is a park but there's a parking garage underneath walked over walked across the street there where there were sidewalks on both sides of the street there were people on both side walks she joins the crowd across the street from the hotel was very crowded couple of 1000 people it's like it's like a big scene and there was a barrier a rope barrier right to keeping us back on the sidewalk and my plan had only been to be back in the crowd. You know and I was just like every other middle aged woman that was there and what were you Do you remember what you were wearing I mean I am sure there is no there are pictures of it yes I was wearing I was wearing slacks that was that was at the beginning of when it was natural for women to wear slacks I had a coat on and I was carrying a purse and I went back into the middle of the crowd as I had planned to do anyway I thought a man came up against me and socialized as I was in that day and time I spun around to slap his face she sees this guy there big strong guy blonde hair looked at him and realized that it was correct crowd pressure that he had not done anything out of out of ordinary that so I turned back around and went on about my business I was then pushed up at the crowd pressure was such I tried to stay back in the crowd but I got pushed up almost on to the ropes in the front right up on the curb of the side wall is what I had not planned to be. And he apparently was still right behind me so maybe he was pushed out by the crowd also and to Syria Jane is just crammed into this crowd and she's just standing there yes where you were you nervous oh no you set out to do something and I was just going about doing what I had set out to do so she waits and she waits and an hour goes by and $2.00 and $3.00 and then finally. Out of the hotel comes none other than the president of the United States Gerald Ford he has. Police and Secret Service they're all coming they're walking out of the hotel to get in his car which was parked there on the street but he sees the crowd Sarah Jane actually says he looks directly at her and he waves he waves to the crowd and everyone starts applauding and cheering now right at that moment. Sarah Jane reaches her right hand into her purse and pulled the gun out of my purse . A $38.00 caliber revolver she cocks and then she takes aim right at Gerald Ford's. And then. Beyond that. But Mr Ford did not fall back on the bullet flies a few feet to the right of forward chips the wall behind him forward freezes in place sirrah Jeanne never planned to take a 2nd shot you know she's just still standing there with my hands down and here holding the gun looking over the smoking barrel of the gun and she's got enough time if she wants it but. Before she can take that 2nd shot the blond man behind her lunges at her grabs her gun arm pulls it down and deflects it for just that crucial 2nd that these police officers nearby need to get to her to tackle her they take her gun and they pin or to the ground so I couldn't move and by that point the Secret Service has whisked off the president into the limousine and I was immediately picked up and carried across the street into the hotel and arrested and eventually she went to prison and she served 32 years in prison and then and then after that was released on parole and then we talk to her there's a. Preferred to be told the 1st person narrative from the perspective of someone who's about she said resident I was not what I was expecting I was hoping that can you explain though why it is she decided to shoot the guy you know why it was just a what surgeons never fully explained and in fact when when I asked her Well this is not she was like I'm not going there this is not an interview about what was driving me or about when I get her why I did it this is an interview about Mr Simple. Cipel yeah all over simple he's the random blond guy who just happened to be standing next to Sara Jane Moore that day the guy who grabbed her arm and saved the president's life and he paid dearly for that I actually called up Sarah Jane and had her tell that whole story because I was actually interested in what happened all over simple after that because had he not reached out and put his hand on my arm. None of this would have happened to him. What happened to him. So all of her civil actually died in 1909 but before we get to the story I just want to give you a picture of the guy so just google search all over simple Ford or something where Ok I see the picture. He's a muscular guy kind of blond hair he's a he's a. He's a handsome guy yeah he's a lawyer so he's a little bit James Dean and Marlon Brando had a baby kind of he feels like an all-American he feels all American or something all American about him thank you we're bringing in another American for the story Daniel looser and that are at Oxford University Press and a few years ago was like probably more than 5 years ago I wrote an article about all over civil but anyway to get back on track September 22nd 175. Fires that shot all over simple grabs her arm the police wrestled more to the ground and in a police actually grabbed all over to pull him inside the hotel to question him because there's a knish Elise confusion about what he was doing there and some thought that you know he might have been a suspect and so he's in this hotel trying to light a cigarette but he just couldn't do it because he was shaking so hard. Turns out all over had served 2 very rough tours in Vietnam loud noises with would make him very unhappy I think this is the sort of thing we might call post-traumatic stress disorder now when eventually all over started to calm down the Secret Service really what are you even doing here is kind of hard for him to answer because it's like he didn't even really know was like oh I don't know I was taking a walk and I just bumped into this huge crowd of people asked what was going on people like oh like Gerald Ford is going to be here you know the president is going to be here so he said he thought I might as well see I'm and then he was standing there for a couple hours until he saw a flash of metal realized it was a gun reacted quickly instinctively and then you guys all pulled me in. Here that's how it came to be here so he's question for 3 hours he goes home home to his 4th floor walk up and there's a reporter there waiting for him but he he just wants to sort of be left alone and he told this reporter quote I'm a coward I don't know why I did it it was the thing to do at the time and then even after that he just keeps getting phone calls from reporters and some of them learned that he was a Marine and so they would ask him questions like Oh was it your you know was it your training is that why you did this heroic thing but he said like oh you know listen don't mention it any of that stuff about the Marines you know about keep that under wraps quote I'm no hero or nothing but. The next day yesterday in San Francisco a shop fire all over story shot across the country like that via next Marine Vietnam veteran named Oliver simple His name is on television or in all over simple on the front page of newspapers were 3rd headlines like x. Marine deflects a weapon as woman shoots that's l.a. Times Chicago Tribune hero tells how he deflected woman's arm and so despite his best efforts all over becomes a national hero for a day and it appears that he sort of thought that would be it maybe his friends would give him a pat on the back by a couple rounds and then you know over the next couple days it all sort of like rippled out of control because that very same day that all over it was being painted as a hero this guy named Herb Cain a long time San Francisco columnist walked into his office and on his answering machine were 2 messages saying hey that guy over simple the hero who saved the president's life is gay. Was he was he out when he was sort of out and sort of not what is I mean well to explain you've got understand this particular time and place so let's just you know take a magic carpet ride close your eyes and let the sound take you away. The city of them or as part of homosexuality is not hold all over. San Francisco sometimes labeled with the fly after the queen city of the west to San Francisco this week again. That was one of the 1st cities in America to have a gay pride parade and in the 70s that's what it said that boys go to bed with boys and girls are better than girls for gay people San Francisco was like this shelter from the storm many of us were immigrants from somewhere this is Ken Mayle longtime Semple Cisco resident and gay activist who at the age of 19 came to San Francisco from Kansas like scaped from Kansas because what the West offered was a theory a promise if you will of reinvention. You could cross a line in which your past stayed behind you it was a place where you could be out but to the people you left behind you could still be in so so and so for all of her you know he came from Michigan from a working class family he had a lot of brothers and sisters I think he was one of 8 children and so after the war when he got his hammer at Cisco he actually started going by the name Billy Billy Billy civil and he was perfectly open about his sexual orientation and would tell anybody who asked that he was a gay man but you know he never told his family and to all of our lived like a lot of gay people a dime this double life and do we know that this is the reason why I said look in a consensus go or was there different you may have just been because Harvey Milk was there the Harvey Milk you know famous gay activist San Francisco politician he was friends with Harvey Milk the New Yorker and the immigrant from New York turns out all over had actually met Harvey a decade earlier in New York and I just want to mention this because it's I think it's so cool at different point in time they actually dated the same guy who was the inspiration for Sugar Plum Fairy sugar they're making him in his sixty's in Lou Reed's walk on the wild side look at this. As a fun fact just a fun fact that's him but all over Harvey They were pretty good friends they corresponded stayed in touch when they lived in different places in the country actually Harvey even loaned all of her money sometimes because all her didn't have a job you know collected disability from his time in the Marines but anyway by the beginning of the seventy's when all of you got to San Francisco reconnected with his old friend Harvey was shall we say evolving into a huge figure their gay public figure Ken was actually friends with Harvey worked on one of his campaigns but in this I'm sorry no no and I'm just thinking like one of the things we were talking about on the phone was about sort of that the kind of 2 different schools are the segue to that oh perfect. This old nerd other I would say older but other generation and. Of gay mostly men was that they were content to go to tea with the mayor or public official of some kind they would show up to like a rally jackets and ties and like asked for their rights politely they really weren't shall we say activist because according to can the activism came. When in the late sixties early seventies you had young gay men and women. Who came out of the Vietnam War protests into the world to look around the c.b.s. News survey shows that 2 out of 3 Americans look upon the sectionals we've discussed discomfort or fear the police are still raiding bars look like some sort of discrimination and jobs and housing people are still getting beaten one of them with. Baggage we're going to be sent to that effect that we're going to kill you both violently and and nonviolent got out you know the street they knocked me down and started beating me with their hands and their feet their elbows. Try to muffle my screams and after a while a body of people get to a point where they just will not take oppression anymore. So. I was in came the activist like Harvey ponytail must be was a banker turned hippie you know you lie and you know you can change in a statement a rarity was very outspoken a question What is your real motive behind this very militant and stop this phony issue that you know is going to infect and Harvey we as a person should have the right to say gay people who are living and half life opportunities. Is a part of society period not being able to be who they were every gay person must come out with you was there and you must tell your immediate family you must tell your relatives you must tell your friends if indeed they are your friends you must tell your neighbors you must tell that people you are right you must tell the people in the stories you shop and I was thinking I wonder if you did your own when you were up there or something like that who were and so cut back to September 22nd 175. In a blink of an eye all over civil becomes this hero and Nazi Knight all of his friend Harvey hears about all this news and kind of senses maybe there's an opportunity here. So. He picks up the phone and he calls the columnist her became a very very well known and well loved gossip columnist and again isn't there are so mil Gleaves a message on his answering machine and he basically says look I'm a friend of Oliver Sibyl's I've known him for years. Oversimple worked on my campaign for supervisor So basically with without simples consent Harvey outed him milk outed him what was Harvey Milk thinking that he would do this well for Harvey the stereotypes. Of gay people as limp wristed in drag queens and stuff distortion or gay people travel that well here's a true gay hero a square jawed heroic. Who seemed to be sort of like regular like red blooded American until Harvey said and this was written down by his biographer who I'm quoting It's too good an opportunity for once we can show that gays do heroic things not just all that Kaka about molesting children and hanging out in bathrooms was in there so he said no no no no you got to ask the guy for you can't just do that Harvey just did it really. He just did it. So King in the next morning can arrives at his office he listens to the message and Cain tries to call simple but he can't reach him but there was another guy who is a gay activist His name was the Reverend Ray brochures he was the head of what's called what was called the lavender Panthers and he also independently call Herb Cain to say oh that guy all over simple aren't talking about on the news Yeah so you got 2 independent sources both of people who said that they were friends with simple and that he was gay and for Cain I think this was juicy this was a juicy thing and he with let me just say like go back and get this so 2 days after the assassination attempt Cain's column comes out and the way that he wrote it up this is the precise paragraph one of the heroes of the day all over beliefs of both the Experian who grabs Sarah Jane Moore's arm just as her gun was fired and thereby may have saved the president's life was the center of midnight attention at the Red Lantern a Golden Gate Ave bar he favors Reverend Ray brochures head of Helping Hand Center and gay political Harvey Milk who claim to be among simples close friends describe themselves as proud maybe this will help break the stereotype. And then that day this guy named Daryl Lemke Lemke l e m b k picks up his issue of The Chronicle sees her column wrote that report to the office the Office of the Los Angeles Times I was a reporter for the l.a. Times and severance was cool and so my office told me get a new interview with simple but really quickly before we get there we actually managed to find a recording of this very specific interview in meet Ellie times collection at the Huntington Library in Los Angeles and I think the reason they hung onto it was because it was kind of controversial. So the night that Keams article comes out Darryl goes all over his house all over there to reporters who certainly were there also from from. That right there is Darrell and. Reprogramming her so they're all sitting in all of his living room and what the reporters are all wondering is have you heard from the president the president had bothered to thank you but the port present her words of a call Medals of Freedom. And before often. Offered you never had a long and certainly. When you left me well yes the left reality. And now voice right there that's all over you have time to change. That. You heard from the mayor Well I've heard from them but. I want only for the press and orders and reporters and press and them are you have been right. I'm sure the mayor. Has access things. Ok can we go on you know. Now the reason this tape is so controversial is because according to all over before the interview began before the you know recorder started rolling. He had said to the reporters from the Sentinel Ok I'm going to talk to you guys about my sexuality but then he had said to Darryl I don't want you to write anything about that I don't I don't want that in a national paper Darryl says he doesn't remember that but then right here in this interview this thing happens where Darryl says I'll make one more turn around. I'll make one more try on the gay thing you know. You don't want to change your mind on that you know. I just don't. Think homosexuality has nothing to do. With the saying that if I love homosexual. Men. I think. And. So I don't think that's fine. And eventually. Ok interview ends and Darrell says that when he left an interview he felt like when it came to all of her sexuality he didn't want to be quoted that was it like just don't quote me on it but still I was trying to report through all sides of the big side for me was he was a hero and is the president States was a very slow on the take and 2nd for saving his life and Darrell thought that all over sexuality the fact that he was gay might have something to do with that because just 7 months earlier this Air Force sergeant named Leonard Matalin Vetch who had the Purple Heart had the Bronze Star he comes out that he's gay and he's kicked out of the Air Force and now you've got this former Marine save the president's life and it's 2 days later he still hasn't heard from the president. So for Darrell even though all over had said don't make this about my sexuality I still thought it was a it was a national story and it was pretty hard to ignore it after her and it started the ball rolling so that night after the interview Darryl calls in his story to the l.a. Times office and he uses this phrase he says that alters of former Marine who was quote a prominent figure in the gay community would have done noise in the story but the rewrite guy put it in the lead and made it the big thing and so 3 days after the assassination attempt the l.a. Times runs a story with the headline no call from President hero in Ford shooting active among s.f. Gays and the l a Times News Service and so Darrell story it goes I mean it goes everywhere another strange twist to the story headlines are like gay vet or homosexual hero it's been reported that the expert who the Plec that Mrs Morse shot on Monday is well known in San Francisco's gay activist circles and soul it was not just running in Los Angeles it's also running in Chicago it's running in Dallas it's running in Indianapolis and it's running you know of all places in all her simple hometown in Detroit I guess what I'm wondering is if you how a guy who says please don't talk about this it has nothing to do with what I did yesterday shouldn't that play some role in what you decide to write or not to write well no you know news sources are always reluctant to talk. And saw I guess I took it as my duty to take up that angle it's Wesley's has involved the president United States but if you were to do it all over again would you do anything differently. I don't know I. Hadn't. Taken into account every. The potential harm of saying it I don't know if I do it over again or not. But let's not be able to turn back the clock or something like that. Clock marches forward after the break. My name is jazz Adam and I'm calling from Los Angeles Radio Lab is supported in part by the Alfred p. Sloan Foundation enhancing Public Understanding of Science and Technology in the modern world more information about slowing and w.w.w. Sloan or. This is Frank Romeo in West Covina California Radio Lab is supported by Blue Apron delivering gourmet recipes pre-selected portions and fresh ingredients to customers doors more at Blue Apron dot com slash Radio Lab. Hi this is my system from Denver Radio Lab is supported by working to help people research find and connect with the right lawyer Abos directory includes client reviews for attorneys detailed attorney profiles and a q. And a forum more at 800 dot com slash Radiolab. This is Radio Lab We're back with the story of all or simple from reporter producer at lot of Nasir said the assassination attempt was on Monday and on Thursday. Simple and his lawyer call a press conference Well I think you all know this is all over simple and save the president's life he has a prepared statement on a subject that's appeared in the rest today. And in the last few days I have been asked many questions having to do with my sexual preference as to what I have been asked whether or not I am gay or homosexual this is there is this is my reply to the lie in question the 1st reason you are interested in my and me is the fact the woman who tried to shoot the president say I'm sorry I'm so nervous she Scuse me. This is a handwritten statement and a little difficulty reading it we need your Oxted in order to get it to you so after a good reason 1st the reason you're interested in me is the fact that I like Ok I couldn't get the word there would go away from my sexual orientation has nothing at all to do with saving the president's life just as the color of my eyes or my race has nothing to do with what happened in front of the St Francis Hotel until. My sex. So my sexuality is a part of my. Private life and I have not I have no. Where has no bearing on my spot response to the acts of a person seeking to take the life of another I'm 1st and foremost a human being who enjoys and respects life I feel that a person or persons who are worth is determined by how he or she. Responds to the world in which they live not on how or what with or with whom a private life and here. He basically says it's like stop stop it's kind of as simple as that yeah but there's something else that happens in the press conference that is makes the whole thing I mean so much more personal finally and it actually was the very reason that all of her called the press conference in the 1st place I want you to know that my mother told me today that she could not walk out of her front door or even go to church because of the pressures she feels because of the press stories. Concern concerning my sexual orientation Naturally I never to disobey did such. Interference with my family relationship or died when I was when I supposably say the president's life all over would later say that when he was talking on the phone with his mother she said to him I don't want to speak to you ever again and she hung up on him and also hung up. Did you call him uncle uncle all over yes I call him uncle or you know this is George simple Jr all over his nephew he told me that most of all the family stayed in Detroit all those 2 brothers and his dad worked together in an auto plant there they all work for General Motors and the stories that I've heard is that the day after all over saved the life of President Ford they walked in and everyone wanted to like buy them a beer you know everybody on the factory floor. Was congratulating them patting him on the back you know your brother's a hero your son's a hero when you know when they would take their their shift break this is the old days right they'd take a shift break and they'd go to the bar and everybody wanted to like buy them a round of drinks so then the news comes out of whatever couple of days later that that he's this game Marine and there's teasing on the on the factory floor and he's and then teasing or teasing Yeah yeah yeah yeah and George says what happened is reporters back in Detroit just sort of descended on all of us parents to get more of the story and so they kept knocking on my Korean mother's door and she I guess apparently told them to go away I guess neighbors were harassing her she thought the media was harassing her my grandmother just said I don't want to deal with it in so don't don't come knock on the door leave us alone and he just wanted to go away and go back to their prior you know private lives now one of the things that I found actually after talking to George were these interviews done with all of his family after the news broke that all over was gay and there's just a whole I just want to read you this one particular passage here have you talked to any other members this is different George f. Simple who is all over symbols brother have you talked to any other members of your family since September 175 all over I mentioned it once to my father question and what was his response what did he say and if you can remember. I was on afternoons Dan and I had seen him because I had come in early and he mentioned the fact that the next person and even said he had a son named all over he was going to literally break their Dam Neck. So his dad was like. His brother is asking about his dad's react rather talking to the dad yeah and then says in the rather says and he told me quite clearly in 2 letter words just forget you've got a brother and I let them alone. Never. Dissipated such interference with my family's relationship. When I supposedly saved president's life this is all I have to say on this subject thank you very much ladies and gentlemen the question then is during my lawyers like so what's the word good what we can do what if you like to see happen. I don't know I'm just I'm very I'm very set up I may have to go see a doctor and I'm very much and I just I'm feeling very sorry for my top up just up and. And you tell us the story of letter. I wish you would have brought it I do have it but I didn't bring it today the same day as that press conference which was 3 days after the assassination attempt Gerald Ford actually did write a letter to all oversimple which was then released publicly it's a nice letter it's White House stationery way how some bloke says it's basically Ford telling my own coal that you know he's thankful to him for this heroic deed and he signed it Gerry Ford which I have been told that Gerald Ford signed different waves so if he signed Gerry Ford it meant something it was like a personal touch. Well this is other chapter where your own says so to the president I guess right thought so yes of this when we found out we found a letter we found a letter in the Gerald Ford Library it's from your uncle to the president while head yeah and I did not I did not know about the letter really but I have the letter right now so it's the date on it is September 30th 1075 So here's what it says. Dear Mr Mayor what a wait wait wait wait yeah you said it was what it was when September 30th 1905 so that would be a couple days after he got a letter from Ford This was so obviously. He got my grand mother must have hung up on him right. And then he wrote the letter Yeah yeah sounds like because he could because he couldn't yeah yeah yeah that's really interesting Yeah well then stop me any time if you have thoughts or reactions Dear Mr President thank you for taking the time to write to me in view of some of the events since the unfortunate attempt on your life on Monday September 22nd I really appreciate your publicly thanking me . As you probably know there have been a number of stories concerning my personal sexual orientation in the news media these stories have caused great anguish to my parents and to the rest of my family I am sure my mother hung up on me when I 1st called her after these stories began to be published I know you are concerned with very many matters which are too important and pressing for you to be concerned with the details of my private life however the unexpected and glaring publicist which has been given to my private life has very seriously disrupted my family relationships Mr President it is a very hard thing to have your mother and family not want to have any contact with you I know that your schedule is heavily occupied but I respectfully request that you take the time to see my family or at least call my family the telephone number is 3130 I love my family and I do not want to be separated from their love and companionship your help will be gratefully appreciated respectfully all over w. Simple. That said Saturday I think that nothing came of it you know yeah you know. We tried really hard to find out if Ford ever made that call Dee Dee archivist at the Ford Library they went through his call logs and there was no evidence that he ever made that call and then we talked to George Jr and he talked to you know everybody in his family and they don't remember it either and anyway you can't say for sure but as far as we can tell that call never happened but we did find out that the same day that all of her sent that letter back to Ford he and his lawyer filed a 15000000 dollar lawsuit against the press really. So saying saying what that the newspapers when they publicized that he was gay without his consent they violated his privacy Ok they're walking out of civic center Burt on to civic center and same Cisco it's just it's one of those cases where it pulls your head in one direction and it pulls your heart in the exact opposite direction and so so we wanted to get into the legal case files and we could not find them we looked and looked and looked and then we found them you found them we found where you find them so the clerk's office is I guess not surprisingly right up city hall they were at this court in San Francisco and so we recruited this guy this research your historian of the you know gay movement in San Francisco great name Joey plaster and he and your id Ok when got the files for us and then when we found them it turned out there will have to thousands and thousands upon thousands of pages and it's that everything is there that's everything and so the issue you know it's it's a very fundamental issue for those of us in journalism and to help us make sense of the arguments you know lurking in those pages what is privacy and what is invasion of privacy we talked to Dan moraine editorial page editor of The Sacramento Bee He actually 1st heard about the case in journalism school and also wrote about all the civil way back in 1980 s. So anyway Ok so here's the 1st page of the file the lawsuit was against the Chronicle the cases all over the full plaintiff versus the Chronicle publishing company was against the l a times the Des Moines Register the Chicago Sun Times The Denver Post the Indianapolis Star and The San Antonio Express that this is the deposition of all the civil rights so one of the arguments that the lawyers for the newspapers are making is that all of her sexuality was not actually private lawyer Were there any people that you knew in San Francisco's and say September 1900. Who knew that you were homosexual simple yes lawyer approximately how many people simple I have no idea more than 10 yes more than 50 yes more than 100 yes there were people in New York who knew he was gay there were people in Dallas who knew he was gave him a kind of the settle in the like in the hundreds did you tell anybody before in September of 1905 that you were homosexual if I were asked I am asking you I don't know what you are asking and they make the argument the newspapers lawyers that hey this was already somewhat public a fact but his personal business was as personal as I have never attempted to obtain publicity for the fact that I am gay or predominantly homosexual my sexual orientation it was a private citizen I have made my home approximately 1800 miles away from home of my parents and my family so that I could move so much freely in the cake community without the fact of my sexual orientation getting back to my parents and family and it goes on but the newspapers made this other argument that was like Ok. Whether or not you're living a double life whether or not you wanted to or whether or not you had to there's something here that's bigger than that that's bigger than you which was he was a private citizen who thrust himself as anybody would hope they would do he ran toward He went toward danger and when he did he also thrust himself into the public eye. And the journalists when you're in the public eye you become something else entirely you become a public figure yesterday in San Francisco or shop fire when that happened to all over he lost his right to privacy one more term. And the newspapers argued when it came to all of our sexuality you. Know it was news at the time it is was and at all printed times has been my judgment that Mr simples activities in the gay community are highly significant and newsworthy for 2 important reasons 1st on March 6th Sergeant letter but disclosed that he was a homosexual so like we said when Darrell Lemke was writing that article about all over you had this big story about the u.s. Air Force trying to kick this guy Leonard Malibu's out because he was gay we want to know and all over has heard nothing from the president and the president later said that he that had nothing to do with all being gay but to people at the time the suggestion that the president's expression of gratitude to support might have been affected by rumors of supposed activities in the gay community that was new news secretary nuffin was asked about was the reason President Ford has not yet personally like the 2nd law. Supposed public display of here was and saving the life of the president of the United States the historic use for gay people to travel that presented an image that gay people are like everybody else that they are heroes image certainly contrary to the stereotype of persons associated with the gay community as weekend on her oh it figures which is to say this is newsworthy this is worth knowing and it is something that the whole country wants to know and the. Value of that is more than the value of you know this individual person's privacy do they make it explicitly I mean sort of putting it in terms of the public benefit outweighs the private privacy Yeah. So it dragged on for 9 years so from 175 to 1984 but this is I'm quoting the judgment the record shows that the publications were not motivated by morbid and sensational prying into appellants private life but rather were prompted by legitimate political concerns i.e. To dispel the false public opinion that gays were timid week in and Horowitz figures and to raise the equally important political question whether the president of the United States entertained a discriminatory attitude or bias against a minority group such as homosexuals so the court tossed all of his case out he lost you didn't get a dime I mean if you think about it is weird that a journalist can just take a person's most private details and then if it feels relevant well thought if they can make that argument they just put it out there as the Just like if we did if we were to go silent because somebody says don't say that about me then and the government backs him up that is if it's meaningful than the person out of which the meaning is being polled painfully has nothing to say about it which is weird to me because it's really hard and I was thinking about this like even sort of on the train coming over here again Daniel looter and it's like the thing that like makes the journalism law so complicated and the things that make an invasion of privacy discussion so difficult is that like. What makes something not an invasion of privacy is not that it's Ok it's that it's politically you know relevant so like the story the fact of the story the fact that the private details of his life are politically relevant means that it's not an invasion of privacy you know it doesn't mean that it isn't rude or that it doesn't hurt it means that it's an appropriate story to feed to publish but I but I do think why should the journalists be the only ones to decide what is newsworthy It's not like what why is it that then journalist you you just pick up a notepad and a pencil and all of a sudden you have so much more power to say what saleable then than anybody else. Well I mean we have a sort of long tradition of that in the United States I mean like that's like what the 1st Amendment is I mean I don't know I mean yes sure like it's like why do journalists get to decide that well like who would you rather have decided it's not a perfect system but it's you know it kind of works so so is all of it just like this this is producer Tracy Hunt who was in on the interview somebody whose life is basically kind of sacrifice to the altar the 1st Amendment and it's like sad way yes. Yeah. Yeah feels like he was sacrificed from all sides actually yeah it feels like there's this one kind of man in the middle and then there are all these forces around him these like these larger than life force says like the White House there's the game movement there's the freedom of the press and all these people are are sort of batting around all these all these enormous and important abstractions and then in the middle of it there's this guy that just he's trampled by all of them and so what ends up happening to him in the end Well I'll tell you right after we take a quick break this is Michael from Portland Oregon. Offering small businesses and bloggers tools to create secure in the host of their website learn more about customizing online presence of. Radio. Hi it's tearing from Somerville Massachusetts Radio Lab is supported by other working to help people research find and connect with the right lawyer of those directory includes Kyra views for attorneys details attorney profiles and a q. And a form more at 8 v.v. Dot com slash Radiolab. This is Radiolab I'm Jad Abumrad he was Robert Krulwich getting back now to our story from producer a lot of Nasir about all over simple who as we heard before the break tried to sue a series of newspapers for outing him last that suit what happened to him after that well apparently some people in the gay community during and after the lawsuit felt that he was trying to go back in the closet so they sort of turned their backs on him. He surprisingly he was friends with Harvey Milk till till the end like when Harvey Milk was assassinated oversimple went to his funeral. And he did have one brother George Sr who stuck by him throughout but but his parents did not and they never fully accepted the fact that he was gay and to when his mom died it was so bad that all the simples father didn't let him go to the funeral and because he he sort of he had so so few people I guess at the end because there weren't you know a lot of news articles about him and because a lot of people in the gay community from that time of died because of the aids crisis it was really hard to find out what happened to all of us have on those last 5 years of his life. And the only way we could was because when we were talking to Daniel looser he mentioned this interview that he did with this guy named When Friday he was a friend of all of ours when Friday was sort of like a pillar of the community in San Francisco like a pillar of the gay community and then also sort of political figure and he was a cop and you know he was he was sort of fingers in every pie kind of thing Wayne died last year but Daniel still had the transcript of their conversation about all over symbols last days and so. We found an actor very gifted Gordon Pinsent. And we had him read it for us. Ok let me have a go. I forgot was 975 The Sarah Jane mower now that I met him around 73 he was a small number at a gay bar called cock but so are these to clean the bars at night you know that set the bar up for the next bartender in the morning that's what he did he did it 2 or 3 different bars he was always at the bars I'd say we actually became friends because we discovered we were both from Michigan. Bill was a good guy he was just so alcoholic I mean he kept his disability check once a month and he called down one of the bars in the Tenderloin where he used to hang out was called Queen Mary's prob he'd go in there the day got his check swear to God he'd he'd spend his whole check and I rip and he get broke the rest of the month he just couldn't control himself and he was a little bit of a blowhard and I always get drunk and loud and need get tossed out of bars. I used to drive home I had an apartment compound s had a little studio I did a one bedroom on the 1st floor about Turk he'd be drawn to the Hell at the bar and I drive him home so I was newer live. And after this thing with Ford It really is mind simple goes from broken guy have to the whole thing worked on the publicist the overall And the fact that everyone knew he was a faggot and. He said to be a couple of times I went to the Marine Corps and I got hurt and not what am I known for for being a faggot and I'd say no you're not you're known for saving the president's life. He walked in on for once or did in bed for Christ's sake. But he would get drunk and he'd start be moaning that I'd sit there in the row of them and talk to him about it a man it is what it is. But he was just. He was just down to nothing. This thing happened and he overcame it was too much for him to handle and I think he got to feeling sorry for himself and his family just many a night I would sit in the bar with Bill simple and he'd try and your shoulder and you'd say Ok simple it's time to go home and then I drive him home. I remember it was raining it was pouring rain. Bruce called me at my office over at the D.A.'s office and said Wayne will you do a well being check on simple for me and I said why and he said nobody's seen the dude he hasn't been around for a while. So we go up there together and it was raining and I'm ringing the bell ringing the bell ring. He doesn't answer. I notice on his door there were these little stickum things posted. And he had befriended this little old lady who lived next door they kind of looked after each other. And she left all these notes bill call me I can't get a hold of you. So I rang the manager's bell and I was a little Filipino guy I showed him my badge and I said you gotta let me here and so he did and the door opened and I knew what was going on. It's a smile. It's a smile you never forget it's a sickening sweet smell Bill was sitting in the chair he was blocked that he was bloated out real basic yet a bottle of Jack Daniels setting there. And the television was down off the coroner told me he'd been dead about 10 days as near as he could fake god I didn't know he was only 47 I thought he was older than that anyway I got the guy to open the door for me and the minute he did I said close it . And then I had to stand there and wait for the car. I remember it was over here at the Campbell funeral home on Market Street and then we buried him out in gold he had National Cemetery in San Bruno. And I remember it was it was very small. Casket wasn't open. The funeral was just I mean there were more media hasn't anything else. I've not seen him buy drinks for more people them or at that funeral. He could have been buried in Arlington if they'd made an issue when. I meet there he was this national icon a gay whatever and. It was just a few people out there for the funeral. I believe in human life. And I think that this country stands for human values. Including live in freedom. I would 1st and foremost a human being who enjoy and respects life. I feel that I am that I feel that expression person's word is determined by all he or she. Responds to the world in which they were. Not our or what or with a private like you hear. This there is why were there why people. This is all as they are. Thank you very much ladies and. Special thanks to Bruce th Burke to Stacey Davis at the job for presidential library c g l b t Historical Society Stephanie areas at the Huntington Library James cram in his Gordon Pinsent Agent Yeah thank you to Gordon special thanks also to Alan Jones Denny Meyer and Floyd Abrams thank you all. We had original music in this story he's a lot of music from a guy named Patrick Cali. This music was released posthumously by the label Dark Entries were super grateful to them for his music.