Sunday times, lord cameron says theres no doubt where the blame lies over the death of three british aid workers. And he added this must never happen again. John chapman , james again. John chapman, James Henderson and james kirby died in airstrikes carried out by the idf on an aid convoy on the 1st of april. The deputy Prime Minister has denied claims the uk is failing to prepare for war. Oliver dowden is defending the government after Outgoing Armed forces minister James Heappey told the telegraph only ministry of defence officials attended a war time preparation exercise, which was meant for the whole of government. Former defence secretary ben wallace has backed him up, saying too many in government are just hoping things go away. Police hoping things go away. Police have named a man theyre searching for after a woman was stabbed to death in broad daylight in Bradford City centre. West Yorkshire Police detectives say they want to trace 25 year old habiba masoom, who was from the oldham area. They were called to the city centre yesterday afternoon following reports of an attack by a man who then fled the scene. The woman was taken to hospital where she died. And a hospital where she died. And a british man nicknamed hardest geezer has become the first person to run the length of africa. Russell cook , from africa. Russell cook, from worthing in west sussex, crossed the finish line in tunisia today. He ran through 16 countries in 352 days. The 27 year old said hed struggled with his Mental Health gambling and drinking and wanted to make and drinking and wanted to make a difference. Hes raised over £600,000 for charity. For the £600,000 for charity. For the latest stories, you can sign up to gb news alerts. Just scan the qr code on your screen right now or go to gb news. Com alerts. The scottish hate crime law comes into effect. Social transitioning in schools is criticised in a government report and bambi is remade as a horror film. This is free speech nafion horror film. This is free speech nation. Welcome to free speech nation. Welcome to free speech nafion nation. Welcome to free speech nation with me andrew doyle. This is the show where we take a look at culture, Current Affairs and politics. And of course, well have the latest from those lovable culture warriors, as they to provide us they never fail to provide us with hours worth of with two hours worth of material. So coming on the material. So coming up on the show as the new hate show tonight, as the new hate crime laws begin take effect crime laws begin to take effect in scotland, we will to in scotland, we will speak to guests and guests who both agree and disagree new measures disagree with the new measures as nhs launches a new as the nhs launches a new advertising campaign, we will ask they making parents ask if they risk making parents overly about overly anxious about their children suffering children potentially suffering mental and were going Mental Illnesses and were going to meet the creator of a remarkable world war one memorial sculpture, which will be washington , dc be unveiled in washington, dc later this year. And of course, myself and fantastic panel myself and my fantastic panel will answering questions from will be answering questions from this studio this rather delightful studio audience and my comedian panellists are cox panellists tonight are paul cox and Cressida Wetton. Welcome both. How are you, paul. 7 both. How are you, paul. 7 im good. Thank you. Im good. Thank you. Really pleased to be here. I love frisbee, like i said before, its like my youth club. Its now the tour. I had to take that. This is where i come to hang out, play some table tennis and. And learn from you. Andrew thats nice, but i hope well, thats nice, but i hope youve done research and the youve done the research and the work are not all lazing about. Lets say yes. Okay. Lets with are okay. Lets go with yes. Are you buzzing you well, cressida, im buzzing the to this thing. Yeah. The air con to this thing. Yeah. No no, dont let people at home know that. Isnt working know that. Yeah isnt working sometimes. Because they wouldnt know, would they . Wouldnt know you they wouldnt know unless you tell them. Right. Tell them. Quite right. Free speech, andrew. Its free speech, andrew. Its focus on the free its just focus on the free speech and on that theme. Lets straight into the audience. So weve got a question starting from catherine. Catherine is the catherine hello. Hello, is the scottish hate crime bill really just a ploy by the police to earn masses of overtime . Well , its true, catherine, well, its true, catherine, isnt it, that the police have said that they are having to pay lots of Police Officers extra money to keep up with the demand to keep up with the number, the volume of complaints. Have any thoughts on do you have any thoughts on this bill, catherine, well, thoughts on the bill . Where do we begin . Youre not. Youre not a fan. Definitely not a fan. Big fan of jk rowling, actually. All right. All right. I would think it would but i would think it would bankrupt nation. By bankrupt the nation. Judging by the complaints, you the number of complaints, as you say. Was, i believe , in well, it was, i believe, in the first 24 hours, 3800 complaints. And of course there were lots of, activists online sort saying were going to on sort of saying were going to on day one, know, on april the day one, you know, on april the 1st, complain 1st, were going to complain about it about jk rowling. As it happened, were more happened, there were more complaints yousaf , complaints about humza yousaf, himself. You know, himself. But cressida, you know, obviously this was always going to open the door for vexatious complaints. And weve seen the Police Working over time. Weve seen the saying cant the police saying they cant cope the the burden cope with the with the burden and the same time a couple of and at the same time a couple of months they said they were months ago, they said they were going stop investigating months ago, they said they were goingand;top investigating months ago, they said they were goingand vandalism gating months ago, they said they were goingand vandalism gatinthey theft and vandalism that they couldnt they just couldnt solve because they just didnt manpower. Didnt have the manpower. Mean, theres mixed so, i mean, theres mixed messages. Say, right, messages. I would say, right, its just isnt it . Its just chaos, isnt it . I mean, its well, are they going to because no matter i mean, its well, are they goin much because no matter i mean, its well, are they goin much they ecause no matter i mean, its well, are they goin much they saste no matter i mean, its well, are they goin much they say were matter i mean, its well, are they goin much they say were goinger i mean, its well, are they goin much they say were going to how much they say were going to investigate single case, investigate every single case, they they . So theres they cant, can they . So theres going be element of going to be this element of picking choosing. Picking and choosing. Somethings going to stand out unless first come, first unless they do first come, first serve unless they do first come, first senwell, i wonder though, well, i wonder though, because yousaf did because they humza yousaf did say would not be very say that he would not be very approving of vexatious complaints. Mean complaints. But does that mean that theyre to that theyre going to investigate people make investigate the people who make the complaints . The vexatious complaints . Because then youve got the complaints and complaints to investigate and the complainants . The and the complainants . Yes, youve got all of that, and then youve the people and then youve got the people who find if there who want to find out if there are complaints against them are any complaints against them that somewhere. So that are hiding somewhere. So thats cost the thats another cost to the government. Is i mean, thats another cost to the govjust1ent. Is i mean, thats another cost to the govjust incredible is i mean, thats another cost to the govjust incredible job; i mean, its just incredible job creation, it . Creation, isnt it . Lets just play devils paul . Lets just play devils advocate here a moment. You know, none of us, none of us like, hate. None of us like hateful. Speak for yourself, andrew. Forgot andrew. Well, okay. I forgot that peoples gammon. Andrew. Well, okay. I forgot thaton peoples gammon. Andrew. Well, okay. I forgot thaton the peoples gammon. Andrew. Well, okay. I forgot thaton the whole, ples gammon. Andrew. Well, okay. I forgot thaton the whole, pleknow,mon. Andrew. Well, okay. I forgot thaton the whole, pleknow, we]. But on the whole, you know, we want live in a world where want to live in a world where people are nice to each other, right . Whats wrong with right . So whats wrong with having enforces that . Having a law that enforces that . Were all grown because were all grown adults. And very adults. And whats very revealing is it revealing about this law is it gives the impression, ian, or an insight humza yousaf the insight into humza yousaf in the snp much they feel snp about how much they feel comfortable encroaching on peoples for peoples lives. For me, government stand back, government should be stand back, set policy that enables grown ups lives. All ups to lead their own lives. All within of within the boundaries of the law. This does is it law. But what this does is it says, youre not adult says, no, youre not adult enough to do this. We actually want hear about your dinner want to hear about your dinner table and they table conversations, and they feel create feel very comfortable to create laws where, you know, grumpy teenagers report their teenagers can report their parents, but they would parents, like, but they would say, the snp said say, i mean, the snp have said and the police would say that the threshold is very, very high. F know, so things like and, you know, so things like that, you know, malicious complaints, not to complaints, theyre not going to end in prosecution. End up in a, in a prosecution. So isnt fair point . So isnt that a fair point . It probably is a fair point. But why have the law if thats the case. Because i dont think theres any need for the law. If theres any need for the law. If the are they the i mean, what are they actually youve asked actually going to. Youve asked this number of times. This question a number of times. What are they actually going to investigate that wouldnt be investigated already under the current law that was current law or the law that was in place previously . Im you know, do have well, im you know, i do have a guest on in a, in a bit who supports law. So will ask supports the law. So i will ask him question. I think its him that question. I think its an important question, final an important question, any final thoughts one . Thoughts on that one . We move on, cressida, before we move on, we still dont exactly know what hate thats a bit of a worry. I mean, that its the nebulous lack of definition around term i think is around the term that i think is concerning. But look, weve got ive got two great guests ive got a two great guests tonight, one of whom is for the bill, against bill. Bill, one is against the bill. Im interview them im going to interview them individually im going to interview them indiv across. So im hoping case across. So im hoping this will an interesting, will be an interesting, interesting okay. Interesting discussion. Okay. Were move on were going to move on to another question. You for another question. Thank you for that one, catherine. By the way, were move to were going to move on to a question from boater. Yes stop here. Hi, should the uk stop the arms israel . The sale of arms to israel . Yes. Yes. So very serious question. So very serious question. It is a very serious question, i wont unless question, i mean, i wont unless do specific views do you have any specific views about that or. Dont allow me to well, dont allow me to huack well, dont allow me to hijack show because on for hijack the show because on for five but could do five hours. But if you could do a short answer. Absolutely not. Well okay. Its right. Well okay. Its interesting because it interesting because of course it has six months the has been six months since the horrific attacks. Had this horrific attacks. Weve had this horrible , death of three britons horrible, death of three britons who were aid workers , its such who were aid workers, its such a horrible situation. So at this a horrible situation. So at this point, do we think that the uk needs to stop arms sales . I mean , what do you think . Well, my understanding is its kind of irrelevant. I mean, its kind of irrelevant. I mean, its not irrelevant in performative terms saying, look, weve something, but weve done something, but if other america other particularly america are selling arms, i dont selling far more arms, i dont think its going to have that big a difference anyway. So the issue is how i mean, israel are in a position where there are there are terrorists next door who say theyre to do this who say theyre going to do this again again and again. Who say theyre going to do this agayeah. Again and again. Who say theyre going to do this agayeah. Dolain and again. Who say theyre going to do this agayeah. Do they|nd again. Who say theyre going to do this agayeah. Do they reallyain. Who say theyre going to do this agayeah. Do they really have a yeah. Do they really have a choice when it comes to i mean, they surely have to deal with hamas at this point, dont they . And the next well, and thats the next part yeah, exactly. You part of. Yeah, exactly. You cant cant. Youve got cant you cant. Youve got to get job done havent you. Get the job done havent you. I dont what do dont know what they can do other than going at the other than keep going at the same time. Paul, its really incumbent on all civilised societies to, paul, its really incumbent on war civilised societies to, paul, its really incumbent onwar civilizconditionszs to, paul, its really incumbent onwar civilizconditions minimise in war time conditions minimise the casualties as much the civilian casualties as much as possible. And a criticism of the Israeli Government for not doing enough is fair enough. Do you think that they could be doing more in that regard . War. And, you know, we its war. And, you know, we seem to be forgetting there seems to be this whitewashing of why were in this position in the first place. 7th of october was now six months ago. And its like that didnt exist. Its been played down much that we been played down so much that we forget still hostages forget there are still hostages being held today. We dont know what condition theyre if what condition theyre in. If theyre alive or not. We know hostages died. The uk hostages have died. The uk supply point 1 of the total. This wont make a difference. This wont make a difference. So even if we took that away, now you have to look at the bigger picture. Now i say this knowing full well that families are dying. Okay . No one. I do not to see this. Id like not want to see this. Id like to see the end of the war. I dont like to see children or women i dont like to see women dying. I dont like to see men even you know men dying. Even though you know none like men. But at the none of us like men. But at the end of the day, this is a much bigger global picture that we need on the world need to be seen on the world stage being a force for good. Stage as being a force for good. And i think whether we like it or not, the only one of the ways we can do that is through munitions. Its very difficult, isnt it . I mean, one thing you make an interesting point about forgetting about october the 7th, because have to say, some 7th, because i have to say, some of the ive heard on those of the stuff ive heard on those protests been very protests has been very disturbing. Openly disturbing. A man openly supporting hamas, people denying that rapes. Im that hamas committed rapes. Im thinking, you know, this. Its thats either a wilful, misrepresentation. Theyre still using civilians as human shields, which is just not how its not acceptable, is it . Very, it . V ery , very it . Very, very serious topic, which, of course, we will no doubt return to many times. Were going to move on now to another question. This question is jeff. Jeff, is coming from jeff. Jeff, where are . Hello, jeff. Hi, are you . Hello, jeff. Hi, andrew. Do you think the tories should take any action against the honeytrap mp . Yeah, well, we know about this, dont we . Weve been talking this all week. The talking about this all week. The William Wragg case looks like hes punished. Hes unlikely to be punished. For his role in this honeytrap sixteen scandal. And in case you sixteen scandal. And in case you arent caught up on this, he effectively was blackmailed. I suppose hed been involved in some sort of sexual discussion with someone online on grindr, which hook up site, and which is a gay hook up site, and hed, i suppose, given them information or images of himself. Im not sure what, but whatever this person whatever it was, this person then blackmailed then effectively blackmailed him, said, okay, and him, and then he said, okay, and he all these phone he gave all these personal phone numbers number of his numbers out of a number of his colleagues. Jeff, colleagues. Now, look, jeff, i dont what you think about dont know what you think about this, he was frightened. I this, but he was frightened. I mean, someone who was mean, this is someone who was going his career. So do going to ruin his career. So do you have any for that, you have any sympathy for that, in relation his career . Yes. In relation to his career . Yes. But what hes done and the but for what hes done and the personal information that he passed on about other individuals as well. Im sure theyre not pretty happy about that. That in itself that. But that in itself reason for that way. For punishment that way. Absolutely so its a tricky one. I mean, im im torn. Cressida, i think when you exploit someones sexuality way this sexuality in that way that this blackmailer did, i think thats deeply, deeply unpleasant. I can understand his fear. Deeply, deeply unpleasant. I can understand his fear. You know, understand his fear. You know, revenge porn is illegal, but people like that , people can do stuff like that, but on other hand, giving up but on the other hand, giving up numbers other people to save numbers of other people to save yourself. Thats not right ehhen yourself. Thats not right either, well, its not either, is it . Well, its not right, and its not right because a it didnt save him anyway. Because a it didnt save him any no,. Because a it didnt save him any no, theres because a it didnt save him anyno,theres guarantee because a it didnt save him any no, theres guarantee that no, theres no guarantee that that have stopped that it would have stopped at any secondly , he was any point. And secondly, he was throwing other people under the same because were being same bus because they were being subjected maybe didnt know subjected. Maybe he didnt know that time, i dont know. That at the time, i dont know. The, the well, they then the, the whoever was then whoever this person was then pretended spear pretended they call it spear phishing. Where phishing. Spear phishing, where you someone else phishing. Spear phishing, where you you someone else phishing. Spear phishing, where you you contact someone else phishing. Spear phishing, where you you contact them1eone else phishing. Spear phishing, where you you contact them ands else phishing. Spear phishing, where you you contact them and you. E phishing. Spear phishing, where you you contact them and you get and you contact them and you get into a conversation and then you you same, blackmail you do the same, you blackmail them, do this kind of them, you do all this kind of thing. Yeah. Was the question . So, what was the question . Should do you feel sorry should they do you feel sorry for or think feel for him, or do you think feel desperately for him, or do you think feel desperat clearly he didnt think because clearly he didnt think this happen. At this was going to happen. But at the same time, yeah, you. Its not i cant believe not acceptable. I cant believe theyre him carry on as theyre letting him carry on as if happened. And if nothings happened. And talking a victim talking about him as a victim when it the next when hes done it to the next people in line. Its very interesting because back day, used to back in the day, the kgb used to target people they target gay people because they were vulnerable were particularly vulnerable to blackmail. With were particularly vulnerable to blac of, ail. With were particularly vulnerable to blac of, like, with were particularly vulnerable to blac of, like, guy with were particularly vulnerable to blac of, like, guy burgess. With were particularly vulnerable to blac of, like, guy burgess. You ith lots of, like, guy burgess. You ended up with gay people ended up with sort of gay people in spy network, but feels in the spy network, but it feels like kind the same like its kind of the same weakness is being exploited. Im not being a not saying being gay is a weakness, by way, but i hope weakness, by the way, but i hope youre angry. It but youre not angry. It can be, but youre not angry. It can be, but you know what i mean. You know what i mean. You know what i mean. You know whtyeah. Aan. Know, all yeah. You know, weve all been involved in online sexual conversations. Regret andrew, conversations. We regret andrew, speak yourself, have speak for yourself, and i have some because of some sympathy for him because of that. Cant have that. What . I cant have sympathy really is sympathy with, really is the lack punishment. Just lack of punishment. Right . Just on the basis that what message does send . It feels like does it send . It feels like a weak tory party anyway, now its even. Even weaker, even weaker. Even weaker, because of this. Now we shouldnt forget the context. It shouldnt forget the context. It is a honey trap and therefore this guy has put in a very this guy has been put in a very compromising the compromising situation. The one thing the biggest thing that is the biggest problem for me is the way he freely handed over the numbers. Now, caught in now, if i was caught in a conversation like that and i handed your number, youd handed over your number, youd want to be punished. Want me to be punished. Everyones my i mean, everyones got my number yeah, think number anyway. Yeah, i think i think point of it that. Think the point of it is that. Yeah, its. Yes. Not its yeah, its. Yes. Its not its not the right thing to do, but you can understand the human impulse behind it, cant you . I suppose isnt suppose thats the point, isnt it . Think he it . Yes. I think why didnt he go to police, though . Go to the police, though . I mean, if youre being blackmailed, would be the blackmailed, that would be the first of wouldnt first port of call, wouldnt it . Shame. Shame, shame. Shame, shame. Possibly. Okay. Yeah. Very possibly. Okay. Well, well. Well never know, lets move on know, i guess, but lets move on to from peter. Peter to a question from peter. Peter hello. Hi, should teenage teenagers only to have mobile hi, should teenage teenagers only with to have mobile hi, should teenage teenagers only with social have mobile hi, should teenage teenagers only with social media nobile hi, should teenage teenagers only with social media appsa phones with social media apps removed . Yeah. This is, this story about so this is, this story about the general secretary of the new, which is the biggest the National Education union, the biggest teaching union. They want be able to buy want parents to be able to buy their teenage children phones without now theyre without the apps. Now theyre called dumb called theyre called dumb phones. Mean, do you think phones. I mean, do you think that apps are ruining that the these apps are ruining kids lives . Yeah, im a teacher. I dont think should mobile think they should have mobile phones at all. Do you do in the class what do you do in the class then . Do you do you the phones . Try to ask you try to ask them to put it away . Whenever theyre away . Yeah. Whenever theyre sitting with their face. And when to educate when youre trying to educate them. Do they. They continually do it. Yes. So that just they continually do it. Yes. So thatjust generational so is that just a generational thing . Do think theyre just thing . Do you think theyre just addicted these addicted to these apps . Addicted addicted to these apps . It. Addicted addicted to these apps . It. Yeah. Addicted addicted to these apps . It. Yeah. And addicted addicted to these apps . It. Yeah. And causesicted to it. Yeah. And it causes trouble school all the time. Its so difficult. I know that Katharine Birbalsingh at, michaela academy. She wont let phones the school. Michaela academy. She wont let phorin. The school. Michaela academy. She wont let phorin fact the school. Michaela academy. She wont let phorin fact , the school. Michaela academy. She wont let phorin fact , some the school. Michaela academy. She wont let phorin fact , some ofthe school. Michaela academy. She wont let phorin fact , some of the school. Michaela academy. She wont let phorin fact , some of the kids l. And in fact, some of the kids volunteer for a detox and they give phones in at give their phones in at the start time dont get it start of time and dont get it for whole time, which i think for a whole time, which i think is a great idea, right . Yes. Are two things yes. There are two things going in parallel here. One going on in parallel here. One is have phones is should children have phones in is should in schools and one is should children to children have access to smartphones . And the apps that smartphones . And the apps that are apps are are social media apps are available now in school is a very different conversation because , you know, time. Whilst because, you know, time. Whilst times have progressed outside of school , within school, the main school, within school, the main structure of discipline still remains. Know the best remains. Yeah, we know the best conditions under which children remains. Yeah, we know the best conrlearn; under which children remains. Yeah, we know the best conrlearn andier which children remains. Yeah, we know the best conrlearn and therefore children remains. Yeah, we know the best conrlearn and therefore we dren can learn and therefore we should probably stick to that. And that doesnt involve, you know, snapchat in somebody else in distraction. In the distraction. Know, know you you know, we know that you cant focus if youre distracted in that you focus. In that way. You cant focus. And look, mentioned the and look, i mentioned the Michaela School because the truth are inner city truth is these are inner city kids. Are underprivileged kids. These are underprivileged kids. These are underprivileged kids doing fantastically kids. These are underprivileged kids theyre doing fantastically kids. These are underprivileged kids theyre gettingantastically kids. These are underprivileged kids theyre getting incredible well. Theyre getting incredible results the results among the best in the country, they country, precisely because they dont distractions. Dont have those distractions. So look, it might people might say, very draconian, say, oh, thats very draconian, but works. But it works. Not. Its great idea. No its not. Its great idea. And these designed to and these phones are designed to be hyper palatable. The designed to addictive. We should to be addictive. Yes. We should be having a conversation about should they be banned for of should they be banned for all of us. To have mine taken us. Id like to have mine taken away. Well, look. Mean, cant away. Well, look. I mean, cant away. Well, look. I get mean, cant away. Well, look. I get addicted� an, cant away. Well, look. I get addicted to, cant away. Well, look. I get addicted to those t talk, i get addicted to those stupid games. I had to delete robot from my robot unicorn attack from my phone because it was. It was taking too much of my time. Very revealing. Very revealing. Dont play game. Oh, dont play that game. Oh, blimey. Anyway, move on. Blimey. Anyway, lets move on. Next free speech nation, im next on free speech nation, im going speaking going to be speaking to the barrister fowles, barrister and author sam fowles, who scotland hate who thinks the new scotland hate crime law will eventually serve to rather curtail to enhance rather than curtail freedoms. Dont freedoms. Please dont go anywhere welcome back to free speech nafion welcome back to free speech nation with me, andrew doyle. Barrister sam fowles wrote a very interesting article in the national recently, in which he explained why scotlands new hate crime bill, which came into force this week, will actually enhance than limit enhance rather than limit freedoms. Im delighted to say that me now. Welcome that sam joins me now. Welcome to the show. Hi there, i think we should give him round of we should give him a round of applause. Shouldnt thanks. Applause. Shouldnt we, thanks. I sir. And i appreciate that, sir. And i have Say Something because have to Say Something because obviously very the obviously i take very much the free speech and its free speech position, and its Difficult People on who difficult to get people on who disagree. Very disagree. So i do very much appreciate and appreciate you coming on. And i want to start with a question which asked. Because which i also asked. Because a lot of people are unclear when it comes to the new hate crime law, what, crimes would be covered or what scenarios would be covered by this law that are not already covered by existing hate crime law . Right. Basically , this law mostly so basically, this law mostly consolidates things. So not that many, but it brings the law in scotland in line with the law in england. So it adds stirring up. Its already against the law in scotland to stir up racial hatred. It adds hatred based on age , disability, sexual age, disability, sexual orientation, transgender characteristics and variations in sex. Now where it goes beyond the english law is an explicitly talking about transgender. The engush talking about transgender. The english law doesnt do that, but otherwise its the same as the engush otherwise its the same as the english law, now does it not . Also eliminate sex from the equality act . The list of protected characteristics . Protected characteristics . No, it absolutely doesnt do that at all. And its so sex is covered in the crime law. The new hate crime law. Sex is covered the new so sex is covered in the new hate law. Its explicitly hate crime law. Its explicitly says ministers power says it gives ministers a power to sex that list. And in to add sex to that list. And in addition to that, there is a new law in progress that is going to be anti misogyny law. Be a specific anti misogyny law. And the reason they did this was because an independent commission headed by, Helena Kennedy kc, whos actually one of my personal heroes, recommended that misogyny should be a separate standalone act. So that will be covered eventually in your view. Okay. So can i ask you about it . Now, i know that youve argued about this before, about the idea of misgendering and you feel its a bit of a misrepresentation. So yeah. To clarify yeah. So i just want to clarify that. Because that. So in your view, because a lot people are concerned lot of people are concerned about misgendering about this misgendering will never under this about this misgendering will nevelaw. Under this new law. Well i think misgendering is purely i dont believe purely saying i dont believe you are the gender that you say you are the gender that you say you are. Thats not going to be covered saying, i dont believe youre the gender you say you are, and therefore i think you should die. And im going to get a bunch of people to do that that would be covered, because thats a threat. So arent threats already illegal threats are already illegal. This consolidates that and this consolidates that that. And it specifically that law. And it specifically says are motivated says threats that are motivated specifically by hating someone because theyre trans. Thats going to be a specific crime, suppose. What i mean is why would you need to criminalise the misgendering aspect of that when the threat itself is already against the law . The threat itself is already agawell,� |e law . The threat itself is already agawell, itsaw . The threat itself is already agawell, its not criminalising well, its not criminalising the aspect that. The misgendering aspect of that. Its criminalising the hating someone because theyre trans. You can like someone and misgender them. People do that. People can have a reasonable debate, but if you say because you are trans, i think youre a paedophile, i think you should get burnt. I think you should get burnt. I think you should get assaulted. Thats what the specific harm that the law is targeting. And the reason thats really important is because trans people are the most trans people are one of the most vulnerable people, minoritized communities, vulnerable to violence, and that violence has increased in direct correlation with the increase in people saying really, really threatening and abusive things about trans people. About trans people. Okay, so theres a lot to unpack there. I mean, the idea of calling someone a paedophile, i mean, thats presumably i mean, thats thats presumably already defamation i mean, thats thats presumably alre iny defamation i mean, thats thats presumably alre in scotland. Defamation i mean, thats thats presumably alre in scotland. Anyway,|ation i mean, thats thats presumably alre in scotland. Anyway, but� n law in scotland. Anyway, but defamation different to defamation is very different to criminal defamation is very different to criritsil defamation is very different to cririts like of money to its like a lot of money to sue someone for, for defamation. So, for instance, i couldnt afford to someone afford someone to sue someone for thinking, oh, for defamation. So thinking, oh, well, on well, its fine. Someone on minimum just pay 200 minimum wage can just pay 200 grand a slaughter and may to grand for a slaughter and may to come and run a Defamation Case for them just isnt really realistic. Realistic. Okay, so lets look at this, this of so youre saying this idea of so youre saying that this is specific. This is important. Think if correct me important. I think if correct me if wrong, argument is if im wrong, your argument is that specifically that its specifically important that this includes trans identity. Yeah, think thats identity. Yeah, i think thats important that important because you say that this marginalised this is uniquely marginalised group, dont group, but the statistics dont really back that up, do they . I mean, if we take the murder rates, for instance, its quite clear well, tell clear that the well, ill tell you, average adult in you, the average adult in england, wales has a 1 in 100,000 chance of being murdered in year. The average in a given year. The average trans one in 200 to trans person, one in 200 to 500,000 chance. In other words, the being murdered the likelihood of being murdered as a trans person is much less than categories in the than other categories in the country. Uniquely, country. Why are they, uniquely, in your view, uniquely marginalised . Youve marginalised . Well, youve youve statistic, youve picked one statistic, another statistic. Statistic is that 75 of the trans population have have suffered violence, violence against them. So theyre more against them. So theyre more trans people, for example, are more likely to be raped than than other people. And the reason this is particularly important is the same reason its really important that we have laws that protect people from racial hate, that protect people from anti semitic hate, that protect from from, that protect people, from from, i dont know, age related hate because these are specific problems that make people particularly vulnerable. But isnt the problem the criminal acts that youre describing . I mean, the idea of rape and the idea of violence, those the things that we those are the things that we ought to be criminalising. Surely, someone surely, you know, if someone attacks doesnt to attacks me, it doesnt matter to me they me me whether they attack me because they like gay because they dont like gay people some other reason , people or for some other reason, the crime is what should the crime itself is what should be my view. Whats be punished in my view. Whats wrong with that . Theres because the theres a correlation hate speech correlation between hate speech and hate crime, is there . Yes can you give me evidence of that. Yeah i can absolutely. So and ill give you the, the uk wide statistic because that was the one i was, was looking at in my, my, my article which was originally for a uk, uk originally intended for a uk, uk papen originally intended for a uk, uk paper, but actually the paper was too worried about the volume of threats that its its people would receive, as a result of publishing that that piece. And so i gave it to a scottish paper instead. So that in itself is one of the reasons, over the course of the last ten years, weve seen an increase us in the uk in anti trans rhetoric, the daily mail for example, if you can count the anti trans pieces, the daily mail runs, and they have increased over the years. Have increased over the years. Now, when you say anti trans, lets be clear about that. I can agree that i think the perception that the number of anti trans articles has increased i dont anti trans articles has increethe i dont anti trans articles has increethe reality i dont anti trans articles has increethe reality isi dont anti trans articles has increethe reality is there. Think the reality is there. I think the reality is there. I think a lot of what the people are doing, and i think what you do in your article is you predicate on predicate it on the interpretation that women standing their sex, standing up for their sex, single sex people single sex spaces, gay people standing rights, standing up for their rights, that motivated by that this is motivated by hostility, bigotry hostility, hostility, bigotry and hatred towards the trans community. Ive had a lot of gender feminists on my gender critical feminists on my show. Them ever show. Not one of them has ever expressed hostility expressed any kind of hostility towards trans people. Isnt towards trans people. So isnt that perception problem . That about a perception problem . , because theres these no, because theres these articles for example , articles are based, for example, on saying things like trans people represent a particular violent threat to women who said that , well, theres violent threat to women who said that, well, theres articles in the daily mail that suggest that theres articles in the in the daily mail. Theres been a submissions to parliament which say that trans people are more likely to commit sexual violence, i think, and thats based on all of that is based on really bad research, research that doesnt hold up. I dont think thats what people are saying. I think what people are saying. I think what people are saying is that when you have a system of self identification that is then open by open for exploitation by nefarious will nefarious characters who will identify in order to identify as women in order to gain to womens gain access to the womens estate spaces, estate and womens spaces, i think thats i dont think theyre people theyre saying that trans people inherently predatory. Inherently are more predatory. Well, theyre saying both of these the idea and, you these things. The idea and, you know, ive, ive dealt with cases of sexual, sexual violence. And i can, can say from a fairly expert position that a sign if someone is going to an act of sexual to commit an act of sexual violence, a sign on door violence, a sign on the door isnt going to stop them one way or theyre certainly isnt going to stop them one way or going theyre certainly isnt going to stop them one way or going twaite certainly isnt going to stop them one way or going twait until ainly isnt going to stop them one way or going twait until they can not going to wait until they can identify different sex identify as a different sex before they go and commit sexual violence. Should how violence. So we should not how it works. We shouldnt have so we shouldnt have single sex grounds single sex spaces on the grounds that find that predators are going to find a way around it anyway . Just saying that no, im just saying that argument not particularly argument is not a particularly good but what im also good one. But what im also saying specific saying is there are specific stories and saying is there are specific storiis and saying is there are specific storiis you and saying is there are specific storiis you can and saying is there are specific storiis you can go and saying is there are specific storiis you can go on and saying is there are specific storiis you can go on the and saying is there are specific storiis you can go on the uknd this is you can go on the Uk Parliament website and look at these, these submissions that say based on a piece of this piece of research , trans people piece of research, trans people are more inherently violent than cis people, when in fact that is completely not true. In fact, theyre less likely to commit violent crimes. Id be really. Would be id be really. I would be welcome. Id open the idea of welcome. Id open the idea of you sending me that. I havent seen ive ive seen seen those. Ive seen ive seen people saying that self identification can be exploited, which i presume you can you agree with. Right. Think law can be well, i think any law can be exploited. Think the benefits exploited. I think the benefits of self identification outweigh the risks of it being exploited, because dont think its because i just dont think its realistic to say that weve got this massive array of sexual predators who are waiting until they can, until they can get the correct paperwork before they start sexual assaulting start a sexual assaulting people. Realistic. Start a sexual assaulting peowell, realistic. Start a sexual assaulting peowell, weve realistic. Start a sexual assaulting peowell, weve seenealistic. Start a sexual assaulting peowell, weve seen it. Listic. Start a sexual assaulting peowell, weve seen it. Weve well, weve seen it. Weve seen identify women in seen men identify as women in order gain access womens prisons. And p. P. Yeah. And weve also seen lots of different lots and lots of different crimes. Weve seen weve know and actually lets correct that. And actually lets correct that. Weve seen men identify as women and be put in womens prisons. But actually identifying as women does not give you access to womens prisons because every it hasnt. And legally, every it hasnt. And legally, every one of those decisions must be based on a specific Risk Assessment. And so it looks at the individual. So what risk. So if im if someones being prosecuted of rape as in the case of isla bryson or adam graham, what Risk Assessment do you need to say. Actually maybe double actually maybe a double rapist shouldnt into rapist shouldnt go into a womens prison. You assess risk that they you assess the risk that they pose other prisoners. You pose to other prisoners. You assess they assess the risk that they pose to themselves. Hes a double rapist. Isnt that enough . Isnt that enough . Case, actually, isnt that enough . That case, actually, isnt that enough . That theyise, actually, isnt that enough . That they are actually, isnt that enough . That they are posed y, isnt that enough . That they are posed to the risks that they are posed to by prisoners would be, by other prisoners would be, would assessed as well, would be assessed as well, i think isla bryson decision, think the isla bryson decision, they got that one wrong and we get public law decisions wrong all the time. Thats why i have all the time. Thats why i have a job, i challenge the a job, because i challenge the government they get government when they get decisions wrong. So i might have challenged im so again, correct me if im wrong. Am wrong. So its your view. Am i right this . Youre saying right about this . Youre saying that identify as women that men who identify as women should accommodated should not ever be accommodated in in womens prisons . No. Im that every im saying that every prisoner assessed prisoner should be assessed for their profile their particular risk profile before are assigned any before they are assigned any prison, whether its men, whether its women , whether its whether its women, whether its solitary confinement, whether its category whether its its category a, whether its category c, and we should make decisions based upon the individual set facts , not a individual set of facts, not a sort of broad, sweeping culture war debate. Its not a cultural but its not a cultural debate. Mean, this how debate. I mean, this is how safeguarding comes safeguarding works when it comes to you these to safeguarding. You apply these principles to safeguarding. You apply these printiny, s to safeguarding. You apply these printiny, tiny minority. When the tiny, tiny minority. When i trained to be a teacher, there were checks on me and everyone else doing so. Not because teachers are particularly have a particular predilection for sexual assault, but because a tiny when comes tiny minority do when it comes to self identification, weve already to self identification, weve alreithat men are now that men are self identifying as and self identifying as women and they into female they are going into female prisons. So surely thats prisons. So surely thats something we should stop . I think is something no, i think that is something. Men a man is. Because if a men a man is afflicted with gender dysphoria, or some, i should say. And by the way, i should say if someone who is born with male sex organs is afflicted with gender dysphoria such that their real self is a woman, but the punishment that we are imposing on them by putting them in prison is a sentence of a period of time in prison. Were not imposing an additional punishment on them of effectively making their gender dysphoria worse and potentially torturing them. Can i just explain . I dont want to no, no, double punish people. But we know that the majority of those people who are going into prisons dont into womens prisons dont suffer from gender dysphoria. They that they do in they are saying that they do in order to gain access. They are saying that they do in ord� we gain access. They are saying that they do in ord� we dont access. They are saying that they do in ord� we dont know;s. They are saying that they do in ord� we dont know that theres no we dont know that theres no evidence for that. I mean, okay, well, there is i mean, okay, ill you evidence ill give you some evidence for that. Of justice that. So the ministry of justice 2020 found that 76 2020 data found that 76 offenders 129 offenders out of 129 trans women, when comes women, 58, when it comes to women, 58, when it comes to women, theres 3. 3 of women in prison are sex offenders. When it men. 16. 8 and this it comes to men. 16. 8 and this is the latest uk is corroborated by the latest uk census data. So is it your contention, then , that trans contention, then, that trans people are just three times more predatory than other men . Or is it your contention that people are exploiting the system because it has to be either one or the other . Its contention that that its my contention that that research been repeatedly research has been repeatedly debunked, the debunked, because actually the ministry of justice data has been the research been debunked. The research that is particular study. Is based on a particular study. And that study, they only and in that study, they only looked most serious looked at the most serious offenders. So instead looking offenders. So instead of looking at serious offenders, at the most serious offenders, they looked at the they should have looked at the trans population as a whole to look trans population as a whole to loo no, youre thinking of a no, youre thinking of a different the thinking of a different the thinking of a different sorry. Im different study. Im sorry. Im talking ministry of talking about the ministry of justice which justice 2020 data, which specifically that 58. 9 specifically says that 58. 9 of trans males prison trans identified males in prison are therefore sex offence purposes, as opposed to 16. 8 of men. Now, you could you can if you want to debunk the ministry of justice data. Im more than happy to hear about that, but that youre talking about a different there. It the different study there. Is it the case . I do want an answer to this. The case, therefore, this. Is it the case, therefore, in view, that trans in your view, that trans identified are three identified people are just three times more likely to be predators which not predators innately, which is not my is that your view my view . Or is it that your view that are identifying and that men are identifying and exploiting gain exploiting this in order to gain access spaces, which is access to the spaces, which is actually view . Actually my view . My view that neither actually my view . Those my view that neither actually my view . Those is my view that neither actually my view . Those is true. iew that neither actually my view . Those is true. Whatst neither actually my view . Those is true. Whats the ither of those is true. Whats the third option . The third option is looking a really, third option . The third option is tiny oking a really, third option . The third option is tiny sample. A really, really tiny sample. Try the ministry of so to try the ministry of justice data all prisoners justice data about all prisoners , number youre the , the number that youre the number giving is 54 people. Youre sample a is it 54 youre sample is a is it 54 129 129. Your youre sample is a is it 54 129129. Your number is 129. To 129 129. Your number is 129. To try and extrapolate towards an about an entire community on the bafis about an entire community on the basis of data from community. Im saying im saying about the idea that clearly from that there are people exploiting that system. I refuse to believe that there is just a huge preponderance within that Prison Community of 129 people who are sex offenders nature of the sex offenders by nature of the fact theyre trans, that fact that theyre trans, that strikes as transphobic. Strikes me as transphobic. Frankly, this frankly, i think what this is men identifying in men identifying as women in order access. Thats the order to gain access. Thats the obvious and clear explanation here, it . Obvious and clear explanation her no, it . Obvious and clear explanation her no, inot at all. Youre no, its not at all. Youre looking youre looking at a tiny, proportion people tiny, tiny proportion of people and trying extrapolate an and trying to extrapolate an intention not evidence. Intention that is not evidence. And so i think before you make any sort of decision about that, you should look at the individuals and look at the individuals and look at the individuals situation. But and that just doesnt do that. That data just doesnt do that. But you understand why women would rather just have a system would ratherjust have a system where men go in one prison, women go in another. I i mean, i understand how people get there. What i dont understand, though, why want to though, is why people want to make rules make these generalised rules when actually there is a very, very clear set of rules for deciding which prisons prisoners go into, which looks at the individual, rather than tapping into what we do know as a culture. And weve got the weve got mps on record saying were going to use this as a culture war point to drive votes. And i think thats really, really think thats a really, really dangerous dealing with dangerous way of dealing with deaung dangerous way of dealing with dealing with prisoners. Love to talk to you i would love to talk to you more i hope you more about this, sam. I hope you come on the show because come back on the show because i think only scratched the think weve only scratched the surface fowles, thank think weve only scratched the surf very fowles, thank think weve only scratched the surfvery much fowles, thank think weve only scratched the surfvery much fowlso thank think weve only scratched the surfvery much fowlso still k think weve only scratched the su come much fowlso still k think weve only scratched the su come on jch fowlso still k think weve only scratched the su come on free fowlso still k think weve only scratched the su come on free speech o still k to come on free speech nation, were get more on the were going to get more on the Scottish Crime laws with scottish hate crime laws with the lecturer michael but the lecturer Michael Foran. But my going my comedian panel are going to be me just be back with me in just one moment. Were going to get some questions from rather questions from this rather beautiful studio welcome back to free speech nation. So lets get some questions from our rather lovely studio audience. And our first question comes from peter. Hello. Good evening. Andrew. Are you offended by the reiteration of roald dahls book . Okay, so this is about the bbc hosts , greg james and chris bbc hosts, greg james and chris smith. Theyve been forced to apologise after telling an illustrator to give of their illustrator to give one of their characters glass to eye make characters a glass to eye make her more disgusting, and they characters a glass to eye make her mthese;gusting, and they characters a glass to eye make her mthese remarks and they characters a glass to eye make her mthese remarks in|d they characters a glass to eye make her mthese remarks in a they made these remarks in a promotional video for the upcoming follow to the upcoming follow up book to the twits. Weve all read the twits. Twits. Weve all read the twits. Thats the roald dahl classic. They were widely criticised for this on social media, and the Royal Institute of blind people was also very critical. Do you think these criticisms are fair . Peter well, theres something to be said for it, but be honest with you, i think they should have left. Alone. Left the book left. Well alone. Left the book as it was. Chris said, im going okay. Chris said, im going to come to you about this one. I think this is a new well, i think this is a new book, isnt this is a book, isnt it . This is a fanfiction. Guess. Book, isnt it . This is a fanyeah. Guess. Book, isnt it . This is a fanyeah. Fan. Guess. Yeah. Fan. Yeah. Fan. Yeah. Fan. Yeah. Theyre gonna theyre gonna next door to some gonna move in next door to some neighbours called lovelies. Neighbours called the lovelies. Gonna you neighbours called the lovelies. This gonna you neighbours called the lovelies. This is gonna you neighbours called the lovelies. This is really. 1a you neighbours called the lovelies. This is really. Ii you neighbours called the lovelies. This is really. I read you neighbours called the lovelies. This is really. I read the know, this is really. I read the article, what was question . Article, what was the question . Do i, i are you do i think i, i are you offended . Are you offended . Oh, it was a unfortunate choice of words. And theyre saying it was a genuine mistake. I dont know whether believe sort of do whether i believe i sort of do believe that, because it would believe that, because it would be so daft as to say that in public. But in order to prove whether its offensive or not, it needs to be true or false. Doesnt it . To some degree. The to some degree. So say it the other around. No one has other way around. No one has ever make that character ever said to make that character more attractive. Give them a glass eye. Okay, look, you know what . Were not were not going to solve this. Lets lets get a question andrina. Hi, question from andrina. Hi, andrina. Andrina. Yeah, my question is, does a slice of cure loneliness . Slice of cake cure loneliness . What do you think . Do you think it does . Do you know ive never been lonely with a slice of cake, you know, and a cup of tea. Peppermint tea. That is fair enough. I mean, the is. So this is. The thing is. Right. So this is. I this is because we i know what this is because we discussed this on headliners this this this this week and this is this research from in the, research from ucla in the, in the they found the us. And they found that women, feel lonely , they get women, who feel lonely, they get more activity with cake. More brain activity with cake. Cake sort of thing that cake is the sort of thing that they go to. I dont look, i think we discussed this earlier in didnt i dont in the week, didnt we . I dont think is about women. Think this is about women. Of us have got decades some of us have got decades of research this. Andrew why of research on this. Andrew why are you researching women and loneliness anyway . Are you researching women and lon andrina anyway . Are you researching women and lon andrina im anyway . Are you researching women and lon andrina im with anyway . Are you researching women and lon andrina im with you. Ay . Are you researching women and lon andrina im with you. It . Andrina im with you. It wasnt about feeling like, i dont is a women dont think this is a women thing. I think this is a human thing. I think this is a human thing. That is a sort of thing. That cake is a sort of universal panacea, because ive only ever been me. But i definitely think when i think happy relationships are, like, natural ozempic, arent they . They, i imagine i definitely i believe it anyway. I certainly dont find it hard to believe. Do women have a greater propensity to need cake . Propensity to need cake . What a question, i think you get into trouble. Get into trouble. Yeah, yeah, i dont think so. I mean, it doesnt make it certainly doesnt make you any thinner. No, no. Look, im both lonely and hungry a lot of the time, and, and ive. And it hasnt solved anything for me. You look beautiful, darling. Please dont do yourself. Please dont do yourself. Thank you. Thank you. Im going to get a question for michelle. Wheres michelle . Hi. Yeah, hi. For michelle. Wheres michelle . Hi. Doih, hi. For michelle. Wheres michelle . Hi. Do we1i. For michelle. Wheres michelle . Hi. Do we think finally do we think were finally going rishi sunak managed going to see rishi sunak managed to rwanda flights going . To get the rwanda flights going . Okay, michelle, what you think . I think we might see them, but i personally think theyre going to be a of time. Going to be a waste of time. Whilst the whilst i understand the principle, look at principle, if you look at australia, very different australia, its a very different setup. Is setup. I think every lawyer is going and argue for going to try and argue for months and months. We might get two a plane that will two people on a plane that will cost of thousands of cost hundreds of thousands of pounds, going to be pounds, but its not going to be enough deterrent to enough of a deterrent to actually do they want it to. The thing is, ive never been convinced this rwanda plan, convinced by this rwanda plan, but one that worry but one thing that does worry me, notion of me, i think, is the notion of democracy. Think in a way, democracy. I think in a way, sunak right, im not sunak is right, and im not a fan the tories. But you know fan of the tories. But you know the point this was passed by the point is this was passed by our court. You our our high court. You know, our high court, our top Legal Executive know, you executive said, you know, you can this is a system can do this. This is a system you then some judges you can do. And then some judges in none in strasbourg who none of us voted in, us can name, voted in, none of us can name, decided to override that for me, thats the issue. It isnt actually and actually about the rights and wrongs rwanda plan. The wrongs of the rwanda plan. The issue we or we not live issue is do we or do we not live in a democracy . Well we do, despite weve for despite what weve seen for about absolutely about ten years, we absolutely do a democracy. Do live in a democracy. Thing about and the thing about the rwanda is, at its rwanda plan is, at least its a plan. Well, its something plan. Well, its something because im not seeing any thing else. I mean, safe routes of passage are just some words together very quickly. I mean, labour say theyve got the solution. They havent said what it is yet, but theyre going to solve it. No, havent and they no, they havent and they cant because its the rwanda sitcom. If ross cant because its the rwanda sitccrachel if ross cant because its the rwanda sitccrachel get if ross cant because its the rwanda sitccrachel get together. If ross cant because its the rwanda sitccrachel get together. And ss and rachel get together. And thats works. Thats thats not how it works. No, cant it happening ehhen really . Really . Well, okay. Well, we will come back to that because thats going go on as well. Going to go on and on as well. But up on speech but next up on free speech nation, michael a nation, Michael Foran is a lecturer law at the lecturer in public law at the university and university of glasgow. And were going asking the going to be asking him about the impact new hate crime impact of the new hate crime laws what theyre doing in laws and what theyre doing in scotland not scotland so far. Please do not go anywhere. Welcome back to free speech nafion welcome back to free speech nation with me, andrew doyle. So lets return to the scotland hate crime bill now. And this time, were going to speak to someone whos a little more critical the new legislation. Critical of the new legislation. Michael lecturer Michael Foran is a lecturer in pubuc Michael Foran is a lecturer in public the university of public law at the university of glasgow, he joins me now. Glasgow, and he joins me now. Welcome, michael. Thanks, andrew. Thanks, andrew. Wanted come to you now, i wanted to come to you about this hate crime law and specifically what your reservations about it might be. Could you maybe us a brief could you maybe give us a brief outline , i think that the main outline, i think that the main issue with the law as it stands is, is, i think a failure of the Scottish Government to recognise the context into which this law was being introduced. So theres an ongoing political debate about the interaction between trans rights and womens rights. Thats were all aware of this. Thats were all aware of this. And ordinarily you would imagine the introduction of a new offence of stirring up hatred on the basis of certain characteristics would take into account the fact that there is an ongoing political debate that will involve people exercising their human rights to freedom of expression, and that specific rights would be put onto the face of the bill to make it clear to everybody involved that the expression of legitimate political speech in this context wouldnt thats wouldnt be criminal. Thats certainly what was recommended by the commission for by the Law Commission for england and wales when it considered the expansion of, hate crime laws in england. And its also what they did when they expanded hate crime laws into the context of religion and sexual orientation. They carved out specific instances to say , out specific instances to say, well, look, if youre criticising your religion or being or ridiculing a religion that wont count as a hate crime, and the Scottish Government in its proposals did not do that. It initially proposed. Humza yousaf, the current first minister, proposed a specific carve out for the expression of gender critical speech in this context, and then pulled that proposal in in the aftermath of significant , aftermath of significant, backlash that he received. And so what happened was that the bill went ahead and became an act with generic freedom of expression protections, which likely, if something got into a courtroom, wouldnt, would be sufficient to ensure that, the expression of gender critical views or other views. And in this area would be protected. The problem is that virtually nobody seems to have understood that until very recently. And that until very recently. And that includes Scottish Government ministers. Police scotland, it seems like the messaging on this has failed to adequately take into account freedom of expression until very recently. Well, a lot of people are saying you know, even if these cases made it to court, the threshold is so high that its certainly unlikely that anyone would prosecuted for would be prosecuted for offensive things that theyve said. So is the concern here . Well, i think thats absolutely true. I mean, if you hit, a courtroom on this, theres a bunch of provisions on theres a bunch of provisions on the face of the bill that would make it very clear that the, the conduct in question would not constitute a criminal offence , constitute a criminal offence, and that would include respect for peoples human rights. Thats thats pretty clear. And the problem that we have here is that thats not clear on the face of the act when it has been made clear on the face of other legislation deals with, legislation that deals with, offences of stirring up hatred. So an opportunity to so there was an opportunity to introduce that and it wasnt taken. Addition to that, taken. But in addition to that, theres a background context here really should have here that we really should have been or that the been aware of or that the Scottish Parliament have Scottish Parliament should have been chose to been aware of when it chose to legislate this area. And so legislate into this area. And so it should have been aware that theres context theres this background context where people are attempting to weaponize the police against their opponents. Does their political opponents. Does their political opponents. Does the context of the the background context of the police hate Police Recording non crime hate instances which are not criminal offences, but could lead to , offences, but could lead to, individuals having their lives destroyed by a report like this and getting back to their employer. For example. So employer. For example. So theres a context there that just wasnt taken into account when legislation was when this legislation was brought even though the brought in. Even though the legislature including the legislature is including the first minister were acutely aware of when they were aware of this when they were going through the process of legislating, it just didnt end up on the face of the act. Well, humza yousaf has said that important that its important that the police non crime hate Police Record non crime hate incidents get a incidents so that we can get a sense in the country of trends, you know, that we can get a sense there is an increase sense when there is an increase of hostility towards any minority group. Whats wrong with youd that well, youd imagine that there wrong there wouldnt be much wrong with that if we were, certain that the, the recording here was going to be accurate and that there was some kind of mechanism for ensuring that complaints are are in some way reflecting an underlying rise in hatred. But underlying rise in hatred. But all of these complaints will be recorded as hate instances, purely by dint of the fact that someone has complained that something has happened. And you could imagine in some contexts , could imagine in some contexts, like domestic violence, you might willing take might be willing to take a complaint face value. But in complaint at face value. But in this context, where again, we know background is know the background context is that a that there is theres a significant debate going on about the interaction between, for example, womens and for example, womens rights and trans. And, you know, one trans rights. And, you know, one persons legitimate expression of political speech is protected under both human rights and equality law is another persons abuse of offensive hate crime. And so i know that a lot of this michael kill surrounds this idea of that, that conflict between womens trans rights, womens rights and trans rights, and a lot of feminists i know are concerned that sex wasnt included in the list of protected characteristics in the hate speech, but i put hate speech, bill, but i put that to barrister sam fowles earlier, he point earlier, and he made the point that actually theyre creating a whole for misogyny whole new category for misogyny to protect women, that actually its so important that they felt they had to keep that separate. That is that a fair point . Is that is that a fair point . Is that is that a fair point . Is that is that a fair point . I think thats a fair point. It certainly when the proposal was introduced into the Scottish Parliament and a lot of feminist groups, responded and complained that this should be separated out as its own separate , out as its own separate, provision. And it seems like thats certainly what the Scottish Government has said that it intends to do. Whether we will see something come as a result of that is a separate point. One thing thats not on the face of the bill, though, that i think might, might otherwise it would otherwise have it would have been it was was that, been better if it was was that, theres an offence of stirring up hatred on the basis of religion in, in this act, but not on the basis of philosophical belief. So that could have expanded to include the expression of gender critical beliefs such that rather than whether or not this is misogynistic hatred. You know, if someone was to say to punch turks in the face or to decapitate them or Something Like that, that could raise the level of meeting criminal level of meeting a criminal threshold of stirring up hatred. If philosophical belief was a protected characteristic under the its not. And so the act. But its not. And so one of the areas where we might have wanted to see better attention to background attention to this background context been in context would could have been in this where the scottish this area where the Scottish Parliament could have chosen to include philosophical belief in addition to religion in these areas. And finally , michael, very and finally, michael, very quickly, do you think, given the fact have been so fact that there have been so many complaints about this, given that a of given the fact that a lot of vexatious complaints are coming in becoming in and its clearly becoming unworkable, will the Scottish Police and the Scottish Government reconsider law . Government reconsider this law . Dont know if theyll i dont know if theyll reconsider the law. I think thats obviously up for them to decide. I think they will certainly reconsider their messaging on, in relation to this know, up until this law, you know, up until very the scottish very recently, both the Scottish Government Scottish Government and the Scottish Police failed police force failed to adequately provide , serious adequately provide, serious messaging on freedom of expression aspects of this bill. You know, we had a Scottish Government minister went on the radio last week and said that she wasnt sure whether misgendering was going to be a crime. Might be up for the crime. That might be up for the police decide. Now, if youre police to decide. Now, if youre a for law , you a responsible for this law, you should know whether this law is going criminalise misgender going to criminalise misgender in in the abstract, which it doesnt. Anybody who doesnt. I mean, anybody who knows about this knows anything about this law will that not true. Will know that that is not true. But that creates the but saying that creates the impression for an awful of impression for an awful lot of people that might be people that it might be a criminal offence to misgender. So messaging here, i think, so the messaging here, i think, clearly has to change to reflect the actual law , and i think that the actual law, and i think that will happen going forward. Foreign, thank you so michael foreign, thank you so much me. Really much forjoining me. Really appreciate. Right. Theres appreciate it. Right. Theres loads more to come on free speech nation were speech nation tonight. Were going to asking if the nhs going to be asking if the nhs are parents for idiots. Are taking parents for idiots. Well the sculptor who well speak to the sculptor who has remarkable world has created a remarkable world war i memorial in america. And me and my panel are going to get some more questions from this fantastic audience. See some more questions from this fantin ic audience. See some more questions from this fantin a audience. See some more questions from this fantin a bit audience. See some more questions from this fantin a bit. Audience. See you in a bit. A brighter outlook with boxt solar sponsors of weather on gb news. News. News. News. Hello, heres your latest weather update from the met office. We hold on to rather unsettled weather across the uk dunng unsettled weather across the uk during the ahead. Further during the week ahead. Further spells most areas and spells of rain in most areas and often windy storm often quite windy too. Storm kathleen started to move away towards the north and northeast of now, but notice low of the uk now, but notice low pressure gathering once again towards and its towards the southwest and its this bring further wet this that will bring further wet and over the next and windy weather over the next couple days. Back to the couple of days. Back to the detail evening and detail for this evening and overnight, fairly overnight, and its a fairly quiet picture areas, at quiet picture for many areas, at least a time, because notice least for a time, because notice theres wet weather theres a more wet weather coming across southwest coming in across the southwest of into parts of wales of the uk into parts of wales and very blustery showers and the very blustery showers weve recently towards weve seen recently up towards the gradually weve seen recently up towards the into gradually weve seen recently up towards the into early gradually weve seen recently up towards the into early hours. Ally ease into the early hours. Temperatures mid temperatures dipping down to mid single figures towards the north under clearest spells under the clearest spells overnight, starting to rise overnight, but starting to rise tonight the cloud and rain tonight as the cloud and rain comes from south and comes up from the south and southwest. Therell be some bright around tomorrow bright weather around tomorrow across southern and eastern areas during the morning, but showery already showery bursts of rain already gathering south gathering down towards the south and more and southwest, becoming more widespread england and widespread across england and wales afternoon, and wales into the afternoon, and some those quite some of those turning quite heavy. Some of those turning quite heavy. Northern ireland, after a heavy. Northern ireland, after a bright start, will see some rain in afternoon, so its in the afternoon, so its scotland thats set to see the best of the weather here. Plenty of and feeling pleasant of sunshine and feeling pleasant enough in light winds with temperatures enough in light winds with temperat tuesday enough in light winds with temperattuesday looks like degrees. Tuesday looks like being very unsettled day being a very unsettled day across have across all areas. We have warnings for Wind Warnings in force for wind and rain. Weather there, rain. Wettest weather there, likely the north east likely towards the north east of the windiest the uk and the windiest conditions generally down towards south and southwest. Conditions generally down towtwhereverouth and southwest. Conditions generally down towtwherever you and southwest. Conditions generally down towtwherever you are, southwest. Conditions generally down towtwherever you are, pretty vest. But wherever you are, pretty blustery on wet day to come and it stays quite unsettled during the perhaps a bit the week ahead. Perhaps a bit warmer a bit drier come warmer and a bit drier come thursday. Generally speaking warmer and a bit drier come thurs unsettled. Nerally speaking , very unsettled. Warm feeling inside from that warm feeling inside from boxt boilers, sponsors of weather on gb news. And theres plenty more still to come on. Free speech nation this week, broadcaster and commentator ella whelan will be with us soon to ask why the new nhs campaign seems takes parents for fools. And this fantastic studio audience will get another chance to fire questions at me and my panel. But lets get a news first from tatiana news update first from tatiana sanchez. Andrew, thank you very much and good evening. The top stories this hour. Thousands of israelis are gathering in jerusalem the jerusalem calling for the release of hostages still being held by hamas. It comes as today marks six months since the terror attack on the 7th of october. Families of hostages also joined a rally in london to call for their release, saying the six months after the attack have been hell. Marking the have been hell. Marking the occasion, the Prime Minister, rishi sunak, has said the government continues to stand by israels right to defend its security. And he added the uk shocked by the bloodshed and called for an immediate humanitarian pause in fighting. He also urged hamas to release its hostages and implored israel to get aid into gaza more swiftly. Meanwhile, the foreign swiftly. Meanwhile, the foreign secretary has used the occasion to stress that the uks support for israel is not unconditional. While writing in the sunday times, lord cameron said theres no doubt where the blame lies over the death of three british aid workers. And he added this aid workers. And he added this must never again. John must never happen again. John chapman, James Henderson and james kirby died in airstrikes carried out by the idf on an aid convoy on the 1st of april. The deputy Prime Minister has denied claims the uks failing to prepare for war. Oliver dowden is defending the government after Outgoing Armed forces minister james after Outgoing Armed forces ministerJames Heappey after Outgoing Armed forces minister James Heappey told after Outgoing Armed forces ministerJames Heappey told the minister James Heappey told the telegraph the only ministry of defence officials attended a wartime preparation exercise which was meant for the whole of government. Former defence government. Former defence secretary ben wallace has backed him up, saying too many in government are just hoping everything goes away. Former tottenham defender and wimbledon manager joe kinnear has died at managerjoe kinnear has died at the age of 77. Dublin born kinnear, who also managed newcastle, Nottingham Forest and luton , had been suffering from luton, had been suffering from dementia having been diagnosed in 2015. He won the fa cup , in 2015. He won the fa cup, league cup and uefa cup as a player with spurs, he went on to manage luton and Nottingham Forest among others. His family say he died peacefully this afternoon. And a british man afternoon. And a british man nicknamed hardest geezer has become the first person to run the length of africa. Russell cooke, from worthing in west sussex , crossed the finish line sussex, crossed the finish line in tunisia today. He ran through 16 countries in 352 days. The 27 year old said hed struggled with Mental Health, gambling and drinking, and he said he wanted to make a difference. Well, he raised over £600,000 for charity. For the latest stories, you can sign up to gb news alerts by scanning the qr code on your screen. Or go to gb news. Com slash alerts. Now its back to free speech nation. Welcome back to free speech nafion welcome back to free speech nation with me, andrew doyle. So weve got a brilliant studio audience lets let audience here. Lets not let them go waste. Lets get some them go to waste. Lets get some questions. Comes from questions. First one comes from peter. Hi peter. Hey, peter. Hi hi again, was it correct that schools were kept shut down dunng schools were kept shut down during the pandemic . Yeah , i know that the yeah, i know that the National Education union this week had their little conference, and they said they were proud that they saved lives by ensuring that schools got shut. Did that lives . And shut. Did that save lives . And was good thing for the was it a good thing for the kids . A teacher, right . Kids . Youre a teacher, right . Definitely dont yeah, i definitely dont think it was a good thing for the kids, and no matter what, some were kept for some schools were kept open for children nhs staff and that. Children of nhs staff and that. So no matter what, some kids were still having to go to school. And i certainly school. Yes and i certainly dont think we should have had them as long, you know, them shut for as long, you know, i mean, its interesting cause i used a teacher as well, used to be a teacher as well, so. 50. So. And you and i know that once kids behind bit, kids fall behind a little bit, actually, it a knock on actually, it has a knock on effect its very, very effect and its very, very difficult. Seems difficult. There seems to be a whole generation of kids who are whole generation of kids who are who behind now who are basically behind now as a result and cressida, a result of this. And cressida, the gets about the thing that gets me about all of that always knew, of this is that we always knew, always right from the start always knew right from the start that didnt affect that this virus didnt affect children. That this virus didnt affect chiiabsolutely. Think i cant absolutely. I think i cant really to really believe were having to ask think its ask this. I think its outrageous this outrageous that this organisation, theyve congratulated organisation, theyve congratultdoi organisation, theyve congratult do well . Organisation, theyve congratultdo well . Didnt didnt we do well . Didnt we save all lives . How dare save all these lives . How dare you . These kids you . Youve changed these kids outcomes the rest of outcomes for the rest of their lives. Maybe some kids lives. Probably maybe some kids can get a tutor in. But the worst affected kids will continue to be the worst. Worst affected kids will conthea to be the worst. Worst affected kids will conthe national|e worst. Worst affected kids will conthe National Education union the National Education union has become major has really become a major activist body in the guise of a teaching union. They are teaching union. I mean, they are caught all sorts of caught out on all sorts of issues this. I mean, issues like this. I mean, really, it time that we really, isnt it time that we just them . There are just ditch them . There are better just ditch them . There are bet id happy to do that. Just ditch them . There are bet ici happy to do that. Just ditch them . There are bet ici think py to do that. Just ditch them . There are bet ici think itsto do that. Just ditch them . There are bet ici think its infuriating. Yeah, i think its infuriating. Well, wasnt with them when well, i wasnt with them when i a teacher. Go on paul. I was a teacher. Go on paul. And ive been and ive never been a teacher. Youll be pleased to know. Good. Teacher. Youll be pleased to kno no, iood. I dont mean. No, sorry, i dont mean. I mean, i just, just dont mean, ijust, ijust i dont think your skill set. Think its your skill set. Not. No, no, no, no. Probably not. No, no, no, i could teach little piglets to do but could it do things, but you could look it quite were quite clearly. They were the. They to be the least they were likely to be the least effective affected of society effective of affected of society at time. Of at that point in time. Of course, theres lot of course, theres a lot of hindsight now that some of us, including back in march including myself back in march 2020, worried about and 2020, were worried about it. And my daughter was taken out of school and it seemed like the right do. Maybe for right thing to do. Maybe for a couple of weeks. Well, we didnt know. To be fair, this was a new virus. Didnt know all of the virus. We didnt know all of the ins outs. I think really ins and outs. But i think really from start, we did know that from the start, we did know that kids affected. From the start, we did know that kid� so affected. From the start, we did know that kid� so aff absolutely knew so what we absolutely knew very that it was very very quickly is that it was very bad the it was very bad for the kids. It was very bad. The virus bad. It well, the virus know that that they were kept out of schools. Well, obviously, but we knew that educating children, we knew that educating children, we knew very, quickly. Knew that very, very quickly. Absolutely. We knew that the absolutely. And we knew that the risk was much lower for them. So we you know, what i would say is that they are congratulating themselves because they created themselves because they created the mess. So theyve got to congratulate themselves because if they dont , theyve got to if they dont, theyve got to admit theyre wrong. Yeah. It just feels like gaslighting oh gaslighting to use their oh yeah, they should be yeah, i think they should be running and getting running for cover and getting a good lawyer. Yeah, yeah, its crazy, but, yeah, yeah, its crazy, isnt it . Were em e were to move on. Isnt it . To were to move on. Isnt it . To a were to move on. Isnt it . To a question to move on. Isnt it . To a question from move on. Isnt it . To a question from ian. Ye on. Now to a question from ian. Where im here. Hello where is ian . Im here. Hello ian, yes, back to trans where is ian . Im here. Hello ian, yagain. k to trans where is ian . Im here. Hello ian, yagain. Im trans where is ian . Im here. Hello ian, yagain. Im very trans where is ian . Im here. Hello ian, yagain. Im very. � ans where is ian . Im here. Hello ian, yagain. Im very. Do; where is ian . Im here. Hello ian, yagain. Im very. Do you issue again. Im very. Do you think that social transitioning, in other words, gender transitioning in schools is ever going to end . Well, this is an interesting one, ian, because weve got the cass review, which we know weve had interim cass report , had the interim cass report, which has already been published for the government for a long time. The government has that to kind of has been using that to kind of moderate and generate new guidelines for teachers and for schools. When it schools. Basically, when it comes identify comes to children who identify as opposite sex no sex as the opposite sex or as no sex or whatever, whatever it might be, review final be, and the cass review final cass going to be cass review is going to be published wednesday. Published this wednesday. It looks cass review is looks like the cass review is going pretty what it going to say pretty much what it said which was not said before, which was its not a neutral actually it a neutral act, and actually it can psychologically can be very psychologically damaging to socially transition a words, to call a child. In other words, to call the by the name of the the child by the name of the opposite sex and the pronouns of the sex. Because what the opposite sex. Because what it does it locks in it does is it locks in psychologically, the idea that they the opposite they actually are the opposite sex. That this is sex. And we know that this is largely a social contagion. Ian, do have any particular views do you have any particular views on this, do you think . What do you teachers should do you think teachers should do when child says, i want to be when a child says, i want to be called maeve whatever . Called maeve or whatever . Like to see the well, i would like to see the whole thing come to an end. It seems insane to me just for teachers to say to little johnny, yes, a little johnny, yes, youre a little girl well treat you as girl now, and well treat you as such. Yeah. I mean, theres a way thats crazy. Theres way to thats crazy. Theres a way to treat sensitively treat kids sensitively about this you this stuff. Not to be mean, you know, to of talk, know, a way to sort of talk, talk kids the troubles talk kids through the troubles that they are facing. But we know dont mean know christa, and i dont mean to have go at girls, but we to have a go at girls, but we know that studies show that know that the studies show that teenage in particular teenage girls in particular have a propensity towards social contagion history. Contagion throughout history. Falling sicknesses, limping, dancing you know, dancing crazes. Yeah you know, the witch hunts in salem. Not blaming you, but what im. What im saying is that there is a propensity for andrew. And when i was, when i was a teacher, it was it was eating disorders. And before then it was cutting themselves. And so in case, before then it was cutting tilot selves. And so in case, before then it was cutting tilot of ves. And so in case, before then it was cutting tilot of kidsand so in case, before then it was cutting tilot of kids and so in case, before then it was cutting tilot of kids and at in case, before then it was cutting tilot of kids and a lot case, before then it was cutting tilot of kids and a lot of case, before then it was cutting tilot of kids and a lot of girlse, a lot of kids and a lot of girls are identifying out of being female by saying theyre non binary theyre male. Of course they are. Its stressful. You get into puberty and suddenly faced with and youre suddenly faced with a whole stuff. Didnt whole load of stuff. You didnt have to with this is why have to deal with this is why i hated that coffee advert, hated that costa coffee advert, where tummy where they showed mastek tummy scars who now scars and the person who was now male was surfing their eyes male was surfing with their eyes closed, having closed, looking cool, having a costa and i thought, that costa coffee and i thought, that is successful when is so successful because when youre you feel, youre a teenage girl, you feel, youre a teenage girl, you feel, you know youre all confused about body. Would like about your body. You would like to it all. And to just get rid of it all. And this surfer cool dude thing was saying, could just saying, look, you could just transition. Its big deal. Transition. Its no big deal. Spoke to a female yeah, i spoke to a female guest on my show about this, actually. Of the things actually. And one of the things she is that, know, its she said is that, you know, its difficult time because difficult at that time because youre suddenly male youre suddenly getting male attention want. Attention that you dont want. Your of attention that you dont want. Your various of attention that you dont want. Your various things. Of you these various things. And if you can make go away , you can just make that go away, you know, lot of these girls know, and a lot of these girls are being that they will be are being told that they will be accepted gay men within accepted as gay men within the gay you know, i know gay world. And, you know, i know a dont go a lot of gay people who dont go on gay dating apps like on the gay dating apps like ghndr on the gay dating apps like grindr anymore grindr and things anymore because women because its full of women whove that theyre whove been told that theyre attractive of attractive to men. And of course, gay men arent interested in them. Never will course, gay men arent intybecause� n them. Never will course, gay men arent intybecause theyre never will course, gay men arent intybecause theyre gay er will course, gay men arent intybecause theyre gay. R will be because theyre gay. To answer the exactly. And so to answer the original if youre original question, if youre setting in motion, setting all that in motion, yeah, children, youre yeah, small children, youre just setting up for all these really complicated things to deal on. Deal with later on. But i dont think the activists are going to this activists are going to let this one i mean, but it is one go, paul. I mean, but it is a problem. You know, ive got a teacher me teacher friend who contacted me saying, a child in saying, look, theres a child in my to called my class who wants to be called by opposite sex name and by the opposite sex name and pronouns, school told pronouns, the school has told me that to do that. But when that i need to do that. But when i the school, to the i write to the school, to the parents in reports and things, i have to lie and use the other name pronouns not tell name and pronouns and not tell them. Lot of schools them. Theres a lot of schools that involved them. Theres a lot of schools thatparents involved them. Theres a lot of schools thatparents here. Involved the parents here. So multifaceted. This this is so multifaceted. This first think its first of all, i think its a fad. I really, genuinely do. And at point we will all see at some point we will all see a lot. Everybody collectively, we will see the emperors got no clothes on and it will just, you know, there will be some acceptance that some kids are trans some are not, that trans and some are not, and that people through of people are going through lots of changes group. The other changes at that group. The other thing, is it makes no thing, of course, is it makes no difference their so difference to their learning. So we, they used to they we, you know, they used to they used to uniforms so used to wear uniforms purely so that all kids didnt have to worry what they worry about what they looked like. All the on worry about what they looked liky look. All the on worry about what they looked liky look. Flooked the on worry about what they looked likylook. Flooked ite on worry about what they looked likylook. Flooked it looked on it. Look. It looked it looked neat tidy and when neat and tidy outside. And when youre , it didnt matter youre inside, it didnt matter if poon youre inside, it didnt matter if poor, wealthy, if if you were poor, wealthy, if you gold trainers like or you had gold trainers like me or nike air like the rich kid nike air max, like the rich kid down road, it didnt down the road, it didnt matter. So whilst were just reintroducing by the back reintroducing stuff by the back door and im really uncomfortable with it, i mean, we all pretended to be things as a kid. I remember i think, you know, i told the teacher i was superman. He was like, get down, mate. Yeah, carry with your mate. Yeah, carry on with your maths. Yeah. Okay. Well, that yeah, yeah. Okay. Well, that would one approach and would be one approach and certainly categorisation certainly the categorisation of non binary is one thats really common well now. Of common as well now. And of course your reaction there, cressida just cressida says it all just i think who these people that think who are these people that think who are these people that think that youre 100 female . Arent we all . Weve i mean, arent we all . Weve all. All got. Well, think what non binary well, i think what non binary the of non binary well, i think what non binary th doing of non binary well, i think what non binary th doing is of non binary well, i think what non binary th doing is actually non binary well, i think what non binary th doing is actually reinforcingy is doing is actually reinforcing sex because sex stereotypes. Because what youre is, i see the youre saying is, i see the world as youve got to behave like this if youre male and this if youre female. So i dont do either. But none of us dont do either. But none of us do either. So arent we all non binary . Well, of course were well, no, of course were not, are andrew . Not, though, are we, andrew . Because, or because, no, were male or female. F male or female. Male or female. Its ridiculous that its its so ridiculous that its hard begin to explain hard to begin to explain it. I also its particularly also think its particularly nasty children being nasty to have the children being split one truth at home split between one truth at home and one truth at school. Yeah, think thats a big problem. Thats very interesting. Were going to come back to this issue, again. And issue, no doubt again. And again. Got another again. But weve got another question from sarah. Again. But weve got another questi are you are you one of the writers . Sorry. Thats a great idea. Thats. King would pay thats. Stephen king would pay money for that. Thats brilliant. Because a new brilliant. This is because a new film version bambi called film version of bambi is called bambi. Reckoning its bambi. The reckoning, and its been actually been made, and weve actually got package lets have got a package of it. Lets have a look. Do you have a shot of deer . No. Why . Have you . No. Why . Have you . Yeah. What. Yeah. What. Yeah. What. I actually think that looks quite good. I mean, look , quite good. I mean, look, theres something sinister and horrific about a lot of old fairy tales and kids stories, and i think some of them are the best. When we talk about roald dahl earlier, theres that. Theres, the lion , the witch and the the lion, the witch and the wardrobe with creepy wardrobe with that creepy paedophile thing. Wardrobe with that creepy paeyes,1ile thing. Wardrobe with that creepy paeyes, yes. Thing. Yes, yes. Yes, yes. You know, but i dont so, you know, but i dont think is aimed at children. Think this is aimed at children. Isnt a andrew. Oh, isnt it a crucial difference . Think should be no, i think it should be aimed children. Ithink no, i think it should be aimed children. I think you aimed at children. I think you should it definitely isnt. Should see it definitely isnt. Seen because ive never seen bambi because ive heard what happens, and i dont to think about that. Dont need to think about that. Yeah, this might be less yeah, so this might be less traumatising, definitely traumatising, but definitely for adults, i mean, i like do you think i mean, i like little riding hood to little Red Riding Hood to me always pretty traumatic. Always seemed pretty traumatic. Hansel gretel well, all hansel and gretel was wasnt it . Was traumatic, wasnt it . Was all supposed to yeah. It was all supposed to be terrifying. Yes. Doesnt wolf her doesnt the wolf eat her grandmother . Yeah i mean, thats not but in the picture book, no, but in the picture book, it lovely, it . It looks lovely, dont it . Because wolfs cuddly. Because the wolfs all cuddly. Yeah. Quite yeah. Grandmother looks quite happy been munched to happy as shes been munched to death. Yeah look, it doesnt really the really matter, does it . At the end day, if they remake, end of the day, if they remake, if they remake, what it if they remake, what was it called again . If they remake, what was it calibambi, n . If they remake, what was it calibambi, the reckoning, bambi, if they remake, what was it cal| reckoning. Reckoning, bambi, the reckoning. N the reckoning. I might even yeah. Smashing. I might even go that. Go and see that. Im going see that yeah, im going to see that 100. My street. 100. Thats right up my street. Okay. To move now okay. Were going to move on now to another question. This is from simon. Simon, hello. I have particular i dont have a particular opinion on this one. Heard something hot i just heard something hot off about this in off the press about this in brazil. Speech being brazil. Free speech being threatened. Oh, yeah. Because. Oh, this is a twitter spat between in brazil. I say a spat, actually, its quite serious , so twitter or the quite serious, so twitter or the brazilian government, the brazilian government, the Brazilian Court has basically ruled and said that certain accounts, certain popular accounts, certain popular accounts in brazil on twitter, sorry, to be blocked by sorry, x have to be blocked by elon musk, and theyve just said you have to do that, otherwise well just ban your site. And elon musk has said , no, im not elon musk has said, no, im not going to do that, even if it means that its going to be completely shut down in brazil, so this was reported. I saw this video by michael shellenberger, who was reporting on this issue, and i hadnt realised this was happening. Krista, what do you make this . Happening. Krista, what do you ma as this . Happening. Krista, what do you ma as usual, happening. Krista, what do you ma as usual, elons a legend. As usual, elons a legend. Hes just said, no, im not as usual, elons a legend. Hesjust said, no, im not im hes just said, no, im not im not going to capitulate to this at going to lose money at all. Im going to lose money over its right. Freedom over it. Its not right. Freedom of matters. Of speech matters. I mean, theres various countries. Various, countries. China has various, you firewalls and you know, extra firewalls and things. You know, they manipulate and that manipulate the internet and that kind it is good, kind of thing. It is good, i think, that musk saying, think, that elon musk is saying, no, rather id rather no, we will rather id rather lose money and revenue for the principle of free speech. I think thats really great. And not making their and its not making their leader look good is it . Leader look good at all, is it . I thats the worst press i mean, thats the worst press you have. You could have. You think, paul . What do you think, paul . What do you think, paul . Hes got his version of hes got his own version of philanthropy he . Elon philanthropy now, isnt he . Elon musk a lot of lot of people musk a lot of a lot of people get billions. A lot of get their billions. A lot of people theres four people like theres four of them, there, krista i them, arent there, krista and i are included that. Are included in that. Its you two, elon musk are included in that. Inaya,ts you two, elon musk are included in that. Inaya, basically. , elon musk and inaya, basically. Inaya did you say . And inaya, basically. Yeah, inaya did you say . And inaya, basically. Yeah, shes did you say . And inaya, basically. Yeah, shes got you say . And inaya, basically. Yeah, shes got a u say . And inaya, basically. Yeah, shes got a castle and inaya, basically. Yeah, shes got a castle in dublin. Got to be rich. Dublin. Shes got to be rich. Yeah. Sorry. How okay. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. How could so hes hes could i forget . So hes hes created philanthropy created this philanthropy now where necessarily where hes not necessarily giving but hes giving to charity, but hes giving to charity, but hes giving to charity, but hes giving to society. Hes giving back to society. Hes saying, bought, he saying, look, hes bought, he bought, bought huge bought, he bought twitter a huge loss, didnt care. He loss, but he didnt care. He knew straight away he would. Hes not a stupid guy. He knew thats a way money. Thats not a way to make money. You know what he decided to do was im going, this is going to be one of the hugest platforms available on planet available to humans on planet earth. Theres earth. Yeah, because theres humans and as a humans elsewhere. And as a result, im going to make sure it stays free speech within reason. And it wasnt for a long time. You know, the people that ran twitter, they were ran twitter, they they were colluding with various government to censor government factions to censor certain political speech. I mean, there was dodgy mean, it was there was dodgy stuff on there, you know. Stuff going on there, you know. So hes hes made so i think hes hes made a difference. He certainly has. Just another and this is just another stand. Who are who stand. And who are people who the who are the arbiters, who chooses can and cant be chooses what can and cant be said . At the moment it feels said . At the moment it feels like humza yousaf and some bloke in yeah what elon is in brazil. Yeah what elon is saying is, shouldnt be saying is, no, it shouldnt be either people. We either of those two people. We should as a community should all decide as a community and know, we all know whats and you know, we all know whats right and we can right and wrong and we can debate thats the only debate it. Thats the only way you ever get through anything. You hear some of you you need to hear some of those otherwise those things out loud. Otherwise theyre just going to go elsewhere. Theyre just going to go els hi, andrew, should. Should hi, andrew, should. Should offenders from difficult backgrounds get lighter sentences . Yeah. Thank you. Andrew for that. Actually, andrew is a great name. Great name. Shapps fantastic name. Although its not maybe as popular at the moment. No, its not, but it comes from the greek for so you from the greek for manly. So you and you can tell. And i, you can tell. Yeah. Theres no doubt about it. About it. It. No doubt about it. Are hench, andrew. We are pretty hench, andrew. I know what this is about. So this is about these basically the Sentencing Council which sets the guidelines for judges and magistrates. And they said they need to be mitigating factors, should someone come to court and they basically come from a bad theyre badly educated. Maybe they grew up with a drug addict family. With in a drug addict family. Theyve grown up poor. So that should be reflected in the sentencing. Andrew, do you think i mean, theres a risk here, isnt there, that basically theyre patronising poorer people and saying, well, you youre bound to commit crimes. So have to be a so were going to have to be a bit or am wrong bit more lenient. Or am i wrong about that . Bit more lenient. Or am i wrong aboyoure . Bit more lenient. Or am i wrong aboyoure never wrong, alan. Youre never wrong, alan. Well, but of course, as someone said years ago , a crime is said years ago, a crime is a crime is a crime. So no, thats right. I mean, cressida, do you think its patronising to working class people . Yeah i do, i mean, were assuming that the crime is the same. I thought there was already an element of sort of. How do you present in court . A friend of my dads was a rugby coach when my brother was a kid, and he got he got so many points on his license, they were going to and when he to take it away. And when he turned court, he said, oh, turned up in court, he said, oh, you all these you cant do that. All these lads rely on me. And he kind of, we thought got lesser we thought that he got a lesser sentence anyway because of that, because his case because he was pleading his case that shouldnt be sent away. Because he was pleading his case thatthisshouldnt be sent away. Because he was pleading his case thatthis isyuldnt be sent away. Because he was pleading his case thatthis is slightlye sent away. Because he was pleading his case thatthis is slightly different,ay. But this is slightly different, isnt because saying isnt it, because theyre saying we for you. We feel sorry for you. Yeah, bit like that, yeah, its a bit like that, isnt it . I mean, i get isnt it . I mean, like, i get the point. Mean, the point. The point. I mean, the point. Paulis the point. I mean, the point. Paul is that, you you paul is that, you know, if you come from deprived background, come from a deprived background, statistically you are more come from a deprived background, statisttoilly you are more come from a deprived background, statisttoilly yup are more come from a deprived background, statisttoilly yup in; more come from a deprived background, statisttoilly yup in criminality. Likely to end up in criminality. But shouldnt holding but shouldnt we be Holding Everyone standards . But shouldnt we be holding eveim|e standards . But shouldnt we be holding eveim|e a standards . But shouldnt we be holding eveim|e a poortandards . Im im from a poor background didnt take the background and i didnt take the route crime. End up on route of crime. I did end up on gb news. You did. And. And youve stolen some of the mugs from my chin. Stolen some of the mugs from my chi|yeah, only because yeah, but only because i needed to my needed to sell them to feed my children. Needed to sell them to feed my chiiwell, im sorry. No, you well, im sorry. No, you should out there. Well, im sorry. No, you showeve out there. Well, im sorry. No, you showeve had out there. Well, im sorry. No, you showeve had this ut there. Well, im sorry. No, you showeve had this chatare. Well, im sorry. No, you showeve had this chat in. Weve had this chat in private, andrew. But look, of course, its its very course, its very. Its very patronising. Cresta, really. You know, thing where know, hit on a thing there where its equal crime, if its if its an equal crime, if i not me, because im no longer working class. Of course im aspirational. Im working aspirational. Im upper working class. This class. Yes, yes, yes. But, this is problem. Middle is a serious problem. Middle class. But if two people have committed exactly the same crime, one of happens crime, and one of them happens to an affluent to be from an affluent background, they going to background, are they going to get, of a sentence than the get, more of a sentence than the working criminals working class . Because criminals are to be clever, you are going to be clever, you know, going go, you know, theyre going to go, you know, theyre going to go, you know dad me up. Know what . We. Dad beat me up. I dont think i should be going to prison. Thats true. Thats true. Yeah, right. X factor i do quite like the idea really quite like the idea of really rich punished it. It. Just because im jealous. Good old neutral andrew doyle. Good old neutral andrew doybrilliant. Didnt mean it. Brilliant. I didnt mean it. Okay, free speech okay, next up on free speech nation, and nation, weve got author and journalist ella whelan whos going discuss going to be here to discuss whether the nhs are taking parents morons. Whether the nhs are taking parentsdo morons. Whether the nhs are taking parentsdo not morons. Whether the nhs are taking parentsdo not anywhereyrons. I on on mark dolan tonight. In my big opinion, a Labour Government is coming. But no one seems to be celebrating. Its a case of. Be careful what you wish for. Are the conservatives now too left wing . And it might take a ten. Angela rayner and the political scandal that wont go away. Plus, as they celebrate 19 years of marriage, ill reflect on charles and camillas great romance with King Charless biographer hardman. Were biographer robert hardman. Were live at nine. Welcome back to free speech nafion welcome back to free speech nation with me, andrew doyle. So does the nhs now think that mothers and fathers are now incapable of raising children without a steady stream of apps and campaigns to guide and poster campaigns to guide them . Seems to the them . That seems to be the assumption new. If assumption behind the new. If they could campaign they could tell you campaign designed laudable designed with the laudable intention of supporting parents to help build secure bonds to help nurture their babys future Mental Health. But which can give the worrying impression that not following the advice to the letter could lead to your child having Mental Illnesses. Well, me to discuss well, joining me to discuss this, have the author, this, i have the author, journalist mother of a journalist and mother of a toddler ella whelan toddler herself, ella whelan ella. It sounds very benevolent this campaign. So do you want to tell us whats wrong with it . Well, yeah, good intentions are one thing, but i think this actually, its not benevolent and these sort of. Its. If anyone remembers the start for Life Campaign , the start for Life Campaign, the Government Campaign with those really horrendously irritating plasticine people telling you that youre too fat and, you know, change your life, its a campaign under that umbrella and its the government announcement is all about the idea that unless you are giving direct attention to your baby and 24 7, then theyre they will develop Mental Health issues later in life, its the most astonishing amount of sort of psychobabble. Amount of sort of psychobabble. Whats the evidence for that . I mean, what are they basing that on . I mean, there isnt that on . I mean, i there isnt any credible evidence for it, number one. But i suppose theres a correlation being drawn between, an in reporting of an increase in reporting of Mental Health issues in adults. We see now, which, you know, is a thing thats happening. And you would if you were sensible, you would if you were sensible, you would if you were sensible, you would question the accuracy and legitimacy of of those and legitimacy of a lot of those claims. But theres a real kind of mummy love me attitude of mummy didnt love me attitude going where the ills that going on where the ills that people are facing today are being blamed parenting being blamed on parenting styles. So, for example, theres this that says , this one poster that says, sometimes i just really need a hug of a lovely little boy and its telling you, you horrible , its telling you, you horrible, awful mother, to hug your child because , you know, because you because, you know, because you wouldnt know to if the nhs didnt tell you. Right. And, the didnt tell you. Right. And, the and theres two really bad things going on here. Number one, you know, if you are actually being a good mother, you hug your kid all the you cant hug your kid all the time because youve got to, you know, their soiled clothes know, wash their soiled clothes and dinner and yes, and cook their dinner and yes, you know, the things that you know, do all the things that mean child. Also mean raising a child. But also the bottom it says , you the bottom line of it says, you know, physical contact or something builds brain connection. So you shouldnt hug connection. So you shouldnt hug your kid because love them your kid because you love them and lovely. Yes. But you and theyre lovely. Yes. But you should hug them because it builds synapses. So its builds brain synapses. So its this horrible, sterile this really horrible, sterile way of looking at Child Development or looking at raising children. And actually, raising children. And actually, its so insane that the minister for health, Andrea Leadsom, did this sort of press release to press release to announce it. And said in the 1001 days and she said in the 1001 days from pregnancy , pregnancy like from pregnancy, pregnancy like conception, like the minute you have sex to their second birthday, these are the days in which the future of their Mental Health will be decided. And thats just utter lunacy. I mean, i mean, that sounds mad. Its completely mad, but its also a really its really damaging for parents. Its such a huge amount of pressure to put on. And a huge amount of pressure to put on. And its always women, particularly women. And you already crippled by guilt already are crippled by guilt when you like im doing at the moment. Drop them off at nursery and they cry at the nursery gates or, you know, you, you feel like you havent put your all peekaboo, which is one all into peekaboo, which is one of the posters, because youre knackered, because had knackered, because theyve had you half night. And you half up half the night. And then have this sort of then to have this sort of messaging, breathing your then to have this sort of mess. Tellingreathing your then to have this sort of mess. Telling you hing your then to have this sort of mess. Telling you that your then to have this sort of mess. Telling you that there your neck, telling you that there will consequences you will be consequences unless you do right. Will be consequences unless you do right. Think its a do this right. I think its a terrible amount of pressure being on parents. Can ask being put on parents. Can i ask no reason . Being put on parents. Can i ask no why n . Being put on parents. Can i ask no why is it that successive why is it that successive governments think governments seem to think that these any effect these campaigns have any effect whatsoever . I mean, we saw in scotland the hate monster campaign, where puppet campaign, where a puppet lectures nicer to lectures you to be nicer to strangers. But the point is that strangers. But the point is that no one reacts well to this. No one that says, oh, one sees that and says, oh, i will, will change my will, i will change my behaviour. You government. Behaviour. Thank you government. When happened . Behaviour. Thank you government. Whywell, happened . Behaviour. Thank you government. Whywell, well happened . Behaviour. Thank you government. Whywell, well actuallyppened . Behaviour. Thank you government. Whywell, well actually itened . Well, well actually it is changing behaviour, changing peoples behaviour, but not better. So i, you not for the better. So i, you know, spend a lot of time in playgroups and things like that and theyre full of really nervous women who are, because again, mostly mums who are treat their kids like, you know, and i mean this in sort of a nice way, like tamagotchis, its like youre terrified about if youre doing the right thing. Have have they had the broccoli today . Have they the tummy time. Have they done the tummy time. Have they done the tummy time. Have done. Tick tick have they done. Tick. Tick tick tick theyre not tick tick. And theyre not actually raising their kid in a way thats enjoyable for them. So i think it is having a direct effect. But of course this current government didnt invent this. This is sort of hangover from start from new labours sure start scheme, all about scheme, which was all about a kind of a social engineering project. You know, with a bonus of some childcare which has been stripped away. Now theres hardly any of that but a hardly any of that left but a sort a social engineering sort of a social engineering project. That said, were project. That said, were going to inequality by to fix social inequality by making that parents, making sure that poor parents, the poor parents get the kids of poor parents get away from home life and mix with some richer kids and hopefully pick up some good habits. And it was a really its been a really corrosive intervention into family life through that has come blossomed all nhs come blossomed all these nhs campaigns sort of campaigns and the sort of horrible irony of all of it, is that the nhs, to my mind, has no right lecturing parents on how to raise their kids because at the moment, with the maternity scandal, is failing to scandal, the nhs is failing to bnng scandal, the nhs is failing to bring into the world bring babies into the world alive on a quite astonishing scale at the moment. So, you know , to have to have that know, to have to have that happening and then be sort of finger wagged by campaigns at, you what im the fact that you know what im the fact that its the worst, you know, International War crime that i give my toddler a bit of squash is, you know, i think thats what really thats what really kicks in. Well, i was going to ask because on the basis of you because on the basis of what you said, imagine these campaigns said, i imagine these campaigns arent isnt there arent cheap, isnt there something government arent cheap, isnt there sometbeg government arent cheap, isnt there sometbe doing government arent cheap, isnt there sometbe doing financially ment arent cheap, isnt there sometbe doing financially orent could be doing financially or spending the money in a better way for new parents . A couple crashes, yeah, a couple of crashes, you of some you know, a couple of some better childcare be just better childcare would be just would alleviate so many family pressures. Pressures. But also, think its , you but also, i think its, you know, its really a policy know, its not really a policy issue. Links to sort of issue. It links to the sort of hate crime stuff. It hate crime monster stuff. It links the things that are links to the things that are going on in schools with gender ideology. Is this sort of ideology. There is this sort of nofion ideology. There is this sort of notion that parents left alone to their children as they to raise their children as they see fit are a dangerous, and children will come out harmed from that. And parents making decisions, whether it be about religion or ethics or morals or what goes in their play or how long you know how you organise family life. Yes, cant happen freely. It has to happen under a sort of with with a state surveillance. So you mean schools not telling their kids that their parents that theyve changed gender or that kind of thing, or the the scotlands named the or the scotlands named person where the person scheme, where the scottish to Scottish Government tried to assign guardian , state assign a guardian, a state guardian child. Yeah. Assign a guardian, a state gueand] child. Yeah. Assign a guardian, a state gueand i child. Yeah. Assign a guardian, a state gueand i mean, child. Yeah. Assign a guardian, a state gueand i mean, youild. Yeah. Assign a guardian, a state gueand i mean, you know,3h. Assign a guardian, a state gueand i mean, you know, theres and i mean, you know, theres slightly controversial, but slightly more controversial, but there whole row about there was the whole row about there was the whole row about the ban, which again, there was the whole row about the whateveran, which again, there was the whole row about the whatever you vhich again, there was the whole row about the whatever you think again, there was the whole row about the whatever you think about which whatever you think about smacking, understand which whatever you think about smaydoesnt understand which whatever you think about smaydoesnt really understand which whatever you think about smaydoesnt really work. 1nderstand which whatever you think about smaydoesnt really work. Never and that doesnt really work. Never mind being of maybe mind it being sort of maybe a bit but the idea that bit outdated, but the idea that you criminalise, know, you would criminalise, you know, you would criminalise, you know, you a you would put such a surveillance and criminalise parents raise their parents on how they raise their kids into this idea that, kids feeds into this idea that, you know, adults be you know, adults cant be trusted to do the most natural and commonsensical thing, which is kids. I mean, even the is raise kids. I mean, even the word parenting i have an issue with, because its turned into this sort horrendous concept this sort of horrendous concept thats full of rules and lists and, and judgement, not healthy judgement , and, and judgement, not healthy judgement, but sort of corrosive judgement, but sort of corrosive judgement, when in actual fact its just raising children. I its just raising children. I think we really need parents need to start not quite. I mean, need to start not quite. I mean, im going to start pulling down the posters in my nursery because the spaces are so sought after. Want to stay in there. After. I want to stay in there. But we have to start saying, for gods this is just not gods sake, this is just not helping. Actual fact, i helping. And in actual fact, i think you the people think its, you know, the people keep going about the birth keep going on about the birth rate low and one rate being so low and no one wanting to have any kids. I understand because youre understand why, because youre not a kid and having not just having a kid and having a family having a nice a nice family and having a nice time. Youre youre embarking on this everyone this project of which everyone from midwife to andrea from the midwife to Andrea Leadsom to the nhs local sort of do gooder is looking at you and watching you doing. And we actually should. I dont want to be kumbaya about this, but you know, get back to sort know, i want to get back to sort of takes a village raise of it takes a village to raise a child aspect because children of it takes a village to raise a chil benefit because children of it takes a village to raise a chil benefit beca this. Hildren will benefit from this. And i think the last i think probably the last thing i want that you look want to say is that you look around in, particularly in sort of middle haunts of cafes of middle class haunts of cafes and things like that, and you see products of these see all these products of these intensive parenting, gentle parenting, theyre monsters. Theyre absolute monsters. So this is wrong. The nhs doesnt know how raise your kids know how to raise your kids better you do. Better than you do. Very ella you know very well ella whelan, for whelan, thanks so much for joining me. And coming up on joining me. And coming up on free speech nation, im going to be speaking to sculptor sabin howard, his amazing world war i memorial is going to be unveiled in washington, dc later this yeah in washington, dc later this year. Were going to be talking all about that. Please dont go anywhere. Welcome back to free speech nafion welcome back to free speech nation with me, andrew doyle. A new world war i memorial is due to be installed in washington, dc later this year. A soldiers journey will be americas First National memorial to those us servicemen who lost their lives in the first world war. American sculptor sabin howard and the pangoun sculptor sabin howard and the pangolin foundry in stroud have taken ten years to create the life sized battle scene, which depicts 38 figures. And to tell me more, i am joined now by the master sculptor himself, sabin. Welcome to the show for having me on today. Really appreciate you coming on. Congratulations on the piece. It is utterly spectacular. I very much looking spectacular. I very much looking forward to seeing it in the flesh. Can you tell us about the genesis of this project . Where did begin , so this was a did it begin, so this was a global team that ran in 2015. There were 350, design teams that entered and we won this project and, from there, then i had to go through Government Agency approval and, after that aspect, we had to figure out how to do this, in a very short amount of time. Amount of time. Could you tell me a bit . Could you tell me a bit . Can you hear me . Can you hear me . All right. Yes. Im just heanng all right. Yes. Im just hearing you now , sorry. Sabin. Hearing you now, sorry. Sabin. So youve created this piece. Can you tell us a little . And its obviously depicting soldiers, through the through the war and what they went through, do you have a particular approach to this kind of thing . What is it that you were trying to convey through these . These depictions . Yeah, you know, heres the thing. Get a giant project thing. You get a giant project like this, and theres all these people that are jumping out. All of a sudden everyone is a sculpture expert. And i had to hold on to my vision, which is very much based on the renaissance idea that we are sculpting humanity. And from sculpting humanity. And from that perspective, i took the way that perspective, i took the way that i worked, which was working from a life model and then translating that into sculpture, i went out and got a actors, and i went out and got a actors, and i dressed them up in, real uniforms, actual uniforms. We found photographs in some of those uniforms of the peoples family , i took 12,000 images and family, i took 12,000 images and iended family, i took 12,000 images and i ended up doing 18 iterations, from that last iteration, we came up with a soldiers journey. So this is a story, really, about a father. That father is an allegory for the united states, it is also , a united states, it is also, a soldier. And its the heros journey where someone leaves home. So in this case, he left, leaves his family behind , enters leaves his family behind, enters into the brotherhood of arms, and then leads a battle. And then from that battle becomes , then from that battle becomes, hes shell shocked and from that, thats the focus of the whole composition , and then he whole composition, and then he returns home at the very end, handing his daughter his helmet and that that daughter and that helmet are representation of world war two. So i think what was really important to do was make a project that an eighth grader could understand and would also be very exciting because, look, lets face it , because, look, lets face it, art has taken a beating. Its theres no sense of value in sacredness anymore. And my sense was like, you need to do something really that elevates human spirit. Talks about rising to the occasion and forget about victimisation. This is a sculpture about empowerment, i ended up using real military men, people that had been in battle. I use six veterans as models. Those models are on that models. Those models are on that bronze relief, so they will be immortalised forever. There expressions show what it is to be a soldier to and do something thatis be a soldier to and do something that is its daunting to enter into combat and then return home. I think a lot of people will be looking at that sculpture and thinking, wow , this does not thinking, wow, this does not look like your typical modern art think theres art piece. I think theres something in the modern art world art, the world where conceptual art, the idea something that doesnt idea of something that doesnt raise the levels the raise us to the levels of the numinous, you know, sort numinous, you know, doesnt sort of the human spirit that of elevate the human spirit that almost of approach is, almost that kind of approach is, is mistrusted and seen as a bit outdated. I mean, do you think outdated. I mean, do you think im right about that . Think youre spot on yeah. I think youre spot on when you say that. Think when you say that. I think theres a real effort to theres been a real effort to decimate value decimate anything of value or something sacred, not, something thats sacred, not, you know, forget about doing a story about human beings. Its not even part of the present narrative of what the art world can do. So this is a very rebellious act on my part. Its meant to change the direction of art. And weve been going on around 100 years now since world war one, where you had this decimation of how man perceived himself prior to world war i, there was a divine order. There was a sense of god and all of a sudden, you know, 22 Million People are decimated. Of course, people are decimated. Of course, were going to get a different view of like , you know, us. Its view of like, you know, us. Its one of alienation. Its where modernism actually starts. So were coming full circle on this project. Im taking it back to 100 years ago when the war, just before the war. And im making something that has the great sense of unity here. Okay, we got 38 figures, but mind you, this is one, one sculpture. That sculpture speaks from 100ft away or five feet away. Theres an intimacy to it. What . You look at those human beings, and when you move back, you see the whole story unfold from left to right and, you thats not something thats going on today in the art world. Its very interesting that, i mean, when i see pieces of work like this, i think the word that spnngs like this, i think the word that springs to my mind is or, you know, when you go into the Sistine Chapel, when you go to the parthenon. I was recently at the parthenon. I was recently at the cathedral in seville, and you there, you see the artworks there, and you see the artworks there, and you the sense of you get filled with the sense of awe and wonder and the capability humankind when capability of humankind when it comes art. And that seems to comes to art. And that seems to be something that, i mean, are you suggesting we might be able to reclaim, that kind of thing . So why why wouldnt we . Well, so why why wouldnt we . Its like it. Youre saying it exactly the way i would say it, art represents us. How do we want to be represented . I dont really want to be represented by a bunch of cinderblocks on the ground. On the floor. I want to be represented by something thats, you know, really amazing. Its all inspiring. And i really like that you bring up michelangelos Sistine Chapel , michelangelos Sistine Chapel, it played a really big part in in me getting a clear head about what i should do. So in my studio, in my studio, i have a, in the bathroom area. I have a poster of the Sistine Chapel, the last judgement, actually. And in the beginning of the project, everybody is saying, okay, we want more barbed wire, we want more horses. We want more men running over the top. We more biplanes. And my we want more biplanes. And my head, you know, its about to explode. I have coming out explode. I have smoke coming out my and so i look at my ears. And so i go look at this poster and i hear in my head, do what you know. And i looked at that poster, its like humanity all pretzeled together, advancing and receding in space. Every one of us will meet our maker, you know. And i looked at maker, you know. And i looked at that poster. I said, im going to do that with the world war i memorial. So the world war i memorial. So the world war i memorial is the interdigitation of all these figures, all showing the different emotions that run and course through human beings from heroism to fear to sadness. You know, all these things are things that are intangible. And i have made them physically present in reality in a bronze sculpture to explain who we are 100 years ago. But the beauty is, and its not really a beautiful thing when you think about it, these wars continue on the war to end all wars is really it hasnt ended. And so you have veterans now that will come to this in our country, afghanistan, iraq, you know, some from the korean war and vietnam war. And they will see their story within this because its a historical piece. Dont get me wrong on that. Theyre wearing the uniforms of those world war i soldiers, but us, any soldier, even one from the uk and britain who comes to see this piece, will recognise his story within it. See this piece, will recognise his story within it. And i think his story within it. And i think thats really important to connect with human beings. And finally, if you could just tell us about where its going to be unveiled, unveiled and when. And when. All right. So then this is, on september 13th of this year, i would i will be unveiling and what were going to do is were going to do a candlelit vigil, i expect a lot of veterans to show up for that vigil. The sun sets at 719 that night, and it is at pershing park, which is 150 yards away from the white house and this is a moment that we will recognise the soldiers that have fought and given of themselves physically and mentally. Many of them come mentally. Many of them come back, you know, not not whole. And this is a way to give back to a service that is truly sacred because there is no theres nothing more noble than to give of oneself for one country. I want country. And i just want to mention the biggest thing mention here the biggest thing that through this that i learned through this project be in service of project was to be in service of something larger than oneself, is what gives you empowerment. It gives you the sense to proceed forward because you are not just relying on your own ego and your own self, and this is a value that extends back in history. So im playing forward history. So im playing forward history. So im playing forward history and im saying western civilisation does have a role in proceeding forward. It is about us. Why would we cancel that . Thats inspiring stuff. Sabine howard, congratulations and thanks very much for joining congratulations and thanks very much forjoining me. My pleasure. And next on free speech nation, owen jones puts his foot in it again and a guest on antiques road show gets more than she bargained for. Its almost time for social sensations. Go anywhere welcome back to free speech nafion welcome back to free speech nation with me. Andrew doyle. Its time for social sensations. Thats the part of the show where we look at whats been going viral this week on social media. So political media. So first up, political commentator jones sparked commentator owen jones sparked plenty of anger this week online when was discussing arms when he was discussing arms sales to israel, and he suggested germans were suggested the germans were making palestinians to making palestinians pay due to their the their own guilt over the holocaust. A look. Holocaust. Lets have a look. Oh, right, britain oh, youre right, britain doesnt that many arms. Oh, youre right, britain doezift that many arms. Oh, youre right, britain doezif it that many arms. Oh, youre right, britain doezif it ends that many arms. Oh, youre right, britain doezif it ends arms many arms. Oh, youre right, britain doezif it ends arms sales, arms. Oh, youre right, britain doezif it ends arms sales, that;. But if it ends arms sales, that then huge pressure on then puts huge pressure on germany which decided to germany, which has decided to make people pay make the Palestinian People pay for crimes it for the grievous crimes it committed by attempting to exterminate people. Exterminate the jewish people. Thats some distance. And germany decided can make germany has decided it can make up obscene guilt by up for its obscene guilt by forcing somebody for forcing somebody else to pay for the crimes that germany committed. Its a very straightforward point. Theres nothing offensive about it. Something ive this is something ive noficed this is something ive noticed with owen jones. He has this tendency to mind read. He has this idea that he understands what everyones secret including understands what everyones secret governments. Including understands what everyones secret governments. Its uding understands what everyones secret governments. Its aiing understands what everyones secret governments. Its a real whole governments. Its a real flaw pretty much everything whole governments. Its a real fla does. Retty much everything he does. Yeah , and i suspect its some yeah, and i suspect its some kind of projection. So whats he guilty about . I dont hes seeing his own values. Lets not do the thing that he does. Well, i cant be specific, but you know, hes. Yes. Fair enough. But what a bizarre thing to say. Yeah, absolutely. Isnt it rather offensive . So on brand. Yeah. So on brand. Yeah. Theres nothing more powerful than story, is than a made up story, is there, to and make point. I to try and make your point. I mean, thing that he mean, the whole thing that he said assumes that all germans, by were nazis , which is by the way, were nazis, which is not true either. So its collectively the modern germans are responsible. So theyre feeling that guilt. I mean, all feeling that guilt. I mean, all of his premises, all of the premises of the people that sit that on the left are that that far on the left are that you hold guilt from the you must hold the guilt from the past. You must, you must, you must. You we all must hold must. You know, we all must hold guilt the slave and guilt from the slave trade and etc, its owen jones can etc, etc. Its owen jones can only remain relevant all the time that guilt is there. As soon as that guilt goes, as soon as we all wake up and go, do you know what that was . The past. This is not whats happening now. You can up as much as now. You can make up as much as you to you like, but were going to dismiss were going to dismiss it and were going to move forward. Be just helpful wouldnt it be just helpful to holocaust comparisons to avoid holocaust comparisons when the current when it comes to the current conflict . Yeah. Havent done other they havent done other people have they, people much good, have they, well, like its well, it feels like its minimising on, minimising what went on, you know, bringing when know, by bringing it in when its not really relevant. Yeah, its not really relevant. Yeah, its just invoking it. Its like trying to be dramatic. Its not. Its not appropriate. Whats on in i mean, whats going on in palestine its not palestine is a war. Its not ethnic cleansing. Exactly. Yes, yes, exactly. Yes, yes, exactly. Lets on to anyway, lets move on to something a bit lighter. Something now. A bit lighter. This lady who innocently this is a lady who innocently took along to be valued took a bangle along to be valued by the antiques road show crew last week, not one of the band. It an item and more than she it was an item and more than she bargained for when expert Ronnie Archer it had Archer Morgan realised it had links to the slave trade. Lets watch this ivory bangle here. Its not about trading in ivory, its about trading in human life. Yes, and its probably one of the most difficult things that ive ever had to talk about. I just dont want to value it. I do not want want to value it. I do not want to put a price on something that signifies such an awful business. I just love you for bringing it to the roadshow. And thank you so much for making me so sad. So sad. Well, hes right, slavery was abhorrent and terribly sad. But should he have valued the bracelet he could have done . I mean, he was making a point i it wasnt berating her, though. No, he did say to her, thank thank you for bringing it along and making me cry, which was, weird, yeah , i can understand weird, yeah, i can understand it. Right . You know, it could be. It could be classed as virtue signalling. However to it, the connotations, i mean, its the bracelet as well. These things were used to bound people. Yeah. Theyre horrible. Yeah. Yeah. Theyre horrible. Yeah. So, so however, i would imagine a lot of things that come onto the antiques roadshow do have a link to something nasty. I imagine they do. Nasty. I imagine they do. I nasty. I imagine they do. I mean, i imagine they do. I mean, most historical artefacts are probably, know, id be very probably, you know, id be very surprised if they didnt have some problematic links. But, you know, i have to doubt know, i have no reason to doubt the of his feeling on that. No. No. Absolutely not. And to be fair to the program, they they aired did the object. Aired it. They did the object. They didnt say we cant possibly they didnt say we cant pos conversation. Great the conversation. Great yep. All right. Well, look, weve just time look weve just got time to look through unfiltered dilemmas through your unfiltered dilemmas. Appreciate you. I really appreciate you emailing with your emailing in every week with your problems. And our dilemma problems. And our first dilemma comes in from mary. And mary says, sister says, what the hell . My sister has boyfriend to the has added her boyfriend to the Family Whatsapp Group shes Family Whatsapp Group and shes only for four only been seeing him for four months. This too early now . Months. Is this too early now . I dont even have somewhere to complain about it. Its definitely, think, family definitely, i think, a Family Whatsapp Group has to be private so we can complain about spouses, partners. That kind of friends. No no no, come on. N0 no no, come on. No no no, come on. Mary doesnt understand how whatsapp works. Now you just whatsapp works. Now you just start another group that hes not in. Thats it works. Not in. Thats how it works. Oh, but its evolving. Oh, but its evolving. Then its deception. Then its deception. Well, obviously yes. Well, obviously its involving yes. Well, obviously its inv but also, isnt this this person pushy sort of person is being pushy sort of saying, no, hes part the saying, no, no, hes part of the family right. Thats thats family now. Right. Thats thats the here. The implication here. She to get her she he she, she to get her own back have introduced she he she, she to get her own to ck have introduced she he she, she to get her own to ck group have introduced she he she, she to get her own to ck group asve introduced she he she, she to get her own to ck group as a introduced she he she, she to get her own to ck group as a intrcloand him to the group as a new loan signing so he he is he is signing so that he he is he is hes a new signing and hes lucky to here for about three lucky to be here for about three months. Yes. Interesting. And thats interesting. And thats interesting. Then she could have gone, and then she could have gone, you know, welcome to my sisters latest boyfriend. We look forward to him being around for about weeks. About six weeks. Quickly. Have very quickly. Well have a quick dilemma rachel. Quick dilemma from rachel. Rachel says i due to be a rachel says i was due to be a bridesmaid at friends bridesmaid at a friends wedding, complained wedding, but she complained i was enough was not showing enough enthusiasm where was not showing enough entiphased where was not showing enough entiphased out where was not showing enough entiphased out totally here was not showing enough entiphased out totally and she phased me out totally and i didnt an invite. Im didnt even get an invite. Im seeing next weekend. Seeing her next weekend. How should it . This should i play it . Yeah, this idea that have to do this idea that you have to do this performative about performative enthusiasm about a wedding boring, wedding weddings are boring, you know, honestly, should know, like, honestly, why should you bother . Know, like, honestly, why should you bothdress. I dont know, nice dress. I dont know, nice dress. Shes dodged i think shes shes dodged a bullet there. It sounds like well, yeah, it sounds like i dont know shes dont know what shes complaining about. Shes at lack of enthusiasm. Let her of enthusiasm. Her mates let her go. Yeah. Go. Fine. Yeah. Friends . Still friends . Still friends . Dont you find that people getting married, they expect you to over . To be all over . If she wanted to be part of it, she should do she should it, she should do it. She should have the enthusiasm to be have shown the enthusiasm to be part got to part of it. Weve all got to pretend, havent we . Yeah. You know, the idea being know, i mean, the idea of being a bridesmaid, it has never happened andrew. Happened for me, andrew. No. And to honest, theyre still to be honest, if theyre still looking will do it. Looking for one, i will do it. Will yeah its part my will you . Yeah its part of my its part its on my bucket its part of its on my bucket list. Want be a bridesmaid. List. I want to be a bridesmaid. Make it happen. Note, thank you okay, on that note, thank you for us free speech for joining us for free speech nation. Was week when nation. This was the week when the hate crime law came the scottish hate crime law came into the writers a into effect. The writers of a roald dahl follow found roald dahl follow up found themselves water and free themselves in hot water and free speech themselves in hot water and free speecithanks to panel, brazil thanks to my panel, cressida and cox to Cressida Wetton and paul cox to all if you want to all my guests. If you want to join us live the studio, be join us live in the studio, be part of the audience. Just go to sro audiences. Mark dolan sro audiences. Com, mark dolan tonight at sro audiences. Com, mark dolan tonigfeaturing at sro audiences. Com, mark dolan tonigfeaturing paul at sro audiences. Com, mark dolan tonigfeaturing paul and at 11 00 featuring paul and cressida. So much for cressida. Thanks so much for joining see you next week joining me. See you next week. That warm feeling inside from boxt boilers. Sponsors of boxt boilers. Sponsors of weather on. Gb news. Weather on. Gb news. Hello. Heres your latest weather update from the met office. We hold on to rather unsettled weather across the uk dunng unsettled weather across the uk during week ahead. Further during the week ahead. Further spells most areas and spells of rain in most areas and often windy. Two storm often quite windy. Two storm kathleen started away kathleen started to move away towards north and northeast towards the north and northeast of the uk now, but notice low pressure gathering again pressure gathering once again towards southwest its towards the southwest and its this will bring further wet this that will bring further wet and weather over the next and windy weather over the next couple days. The couple of days. Back to the detail evening and detail for this evening and overnight and a fairly overnight and its a fairly quiet picture for many areas, at overnight and its a fairly quiet forture for many areas, at overnight and its a fairly quiet for a re for many areas, at overnight and its a fairly quiet for a time, many areas, at overnight and its a fairly quiet for a time, becausezas, at overnight and its a fairly quiet for a time, because notice least for a time, because notice theres weather theres a more wet weather coming in across the southwest of parts of wales, of the uk into parts of wales, and the very blustery showers weve up towards and the very blustery showers wenorth west up towards and the very blustery showers wenorth west gradually s the north west will gradually ease into the early hours. Temperatures dipping down to mid single figures towards north single figures towards the north under spells under the clearest spells overnight, starting rise overnight, but starting to rise tonight cloud and rain tonight as the cloud and rain comes from the south and comes up from the south and southwest. Therell some southwest. Therell be some bright around tomorrow bright weather around tomorrow across southern and eastern areas morning, but areas during the morning, but showery bursts of rain already gathering the south gathering down towards the south and , becoming more and southwest, becoming more widespread and southwest, becoming more widesfinto the afternoon and wales into the afternoon and some those turning quite some of those turning quite heavy. Ireland, a heavy. Northern ireland, after a bright start, will see some rain in the afternoon. So its scotland thats set to see the best plenty best of the weather here. Plenty of feeling pleasant of sunshine and feeling pleasant enough winds with enough in light winds with temperatures about temperatures up to about 12 degrees. Like degrees. Tuesday looks like being unsettled day being a very unsettled day across areas. We across all areas. We have warnings force wind and warnings in force for wind and rain. Wettest weather. Theyre likely north east of rain. Wettest weather. Theyre like uk north east of rain. Wettest weather. Theyre like uk and north east of rain. Wettest weather. Theyre like uk and the north east of rain. Wettest weather. Theyre like uk and the windiesteast of the uk and the windiest conditions generally down towards south southwest. Towards the south and southwest. But wherever you are pretty blustery wet day to come and blustery and wet day to come and it quite unsettled it stays quite unsettled during the a bit the week ahead. Perhaps a bit warmer bit drier come warmer and a bit drier come thursday, generally thursday, but generally speaking,. Speaking, very unsettled. Looks like things are heating up. Boxt boilers sponsors of up. Boxt boilers sponsors of weather on gb news. Good evening. Its 9 00. On television. On radio and online in the United Kingdom and across the world. This is mark dolan tonight. In the world. This is mark dolan tonight. In my big opinion, a Labour Government is coming and i havent met anyone thats looking forward to it. My mark meets guest is the world renowned biographer of king charles, who will give us the inside story of our remarkable monarchs short but challenging reign. In the monarchs short but challenging reign. In the big monarchs short but challenging reign. In the big story, after reign. In the big story, after a shock poll of local tory councillors. Are the conservatives now two left wing . Ill be speaking to Philip Davies mp, who strongly disagrees and makes the case for sunak being the most conservative pm since Margaret Thatcher and looking forward to this in my take at ten Angela Rayner and the political scandal that wont go away. Ill be deaung that wont go away. Ill be dealing with labours deputy leader in no Uncertain Terms at ten. You wont want to miss it. A really busy and lively show to come. Two hours of big opinion, big debate and big
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