fellow again -- hello again from fox news in washington. from the change in well form work requirements to implementing the new health care law there is concern in key states where the 2012 presidential election could be determined. joining us now are governors from two of those states, rick scott of florida who comes to us from san francisco and terry brandstet from virginia. welcome to you both, gentlemen. let me start with the question that stirred so much interest at the end of the week which is a set of new possible waivers of the federal government of work requirements under welfare reform. this would appear on the service at least to be a case of the states getting more flexibility in how they administer the work requirements for receiving welfare benefits. let me start with you, governor, and how you see these waivers. some people are saying it will gut the law. >> well, unfortunately i think this is a huge step in the wrong direction. i was governor with tommy thompson from wisconsin and john an -- angler and we worked with bill clinton to get the well form -- welfare reform passed and it was a program based on job training and work, and we helped move millions of people off the welfare roles and into permanent employ meant. we reduced the cost of welfare and medicaid as a result of it. it was very successful. now we see this administration trying to gut it. i think it is illegal because it is in the law. i don't think they have a right to waive it. i know tommy thompson is saying he is thinking about suing them over it. it is wrong and a move in the wrong direction. the focus needs to be on helping people to move from welfare to work, not making people permanently dependent on the government welfare program. we know that didn't work back in the 1970s and 1980s and finally changing it in the 1990s. this program has worked. it is absolutely a terrible step in the wrong direction. >> governor, isn't it unusual for a republican like yourself to be arguing that it is federal bureaucrats in washington with the rules they have laid out for this know better than the governors in the states across the country, and their saw bored nets about how to best implement the law? >> well, actually the governors are the ones who wrote the law in the first place. we are the ones i mentioned, thompson, angler, you can talk to the governors who helped pass the law. we saw it work effectively in our states. the welfare roles went down substantially. we helped a lot of people move to a higher standard of living and more opportunity. and this guts it. this goes back to the entitlement mentality -- >> governor, they have not eliminated the work requirement or the requirement there be activity underway that leads it to work. it is allowing the state to have more flexibility in how to implement that, aren't they? >> what i would like to see is more flexibility on the medicaid program. we would like more flexibility instead of these maintenance of effort requirements that the federal government has imposed on us. >> governor, forgive me. >> they want to give us more flexibility, do it under medicaid. >> i am going to come to medicaid in a moment. let me turn to governor scott. governor, how do you see this adjustment in the federal government's rules on the work requirements for welfare? >> governor brandsted is right. it is great if they give us more on medicaid. i mean, with this, perm responsibility is very -- personal responsibility is very important. in our state the number of people on unemployment has gone from 568,000 to 321,000 and part is personal responsibility. people need to be going out and looking for a job. we don't want people to stay on welfare. we want them to get back to work. that's what governors want. we want our states busy with more jobs. >> governor, aren't you now in a position with the flexibility granted to you by the federal government to set the welfare to the work requirements pretty much how you want it done. >> we will look at this, but we will keep the responsibility in our states. i wish they would do this for immediate dak aid. for medicaid. give us more flexibility on medicaid. that's what they ought to be doing. but with this we believe in perm responsibility, and we will have personal responsibility in our state. we want people to look for a job and get back to work. >> i assume, governor, you will do the same in iowa, keep requirements similar to what you've got, correct? >> absolutely. and i've got chuck palmer running the department of human services for us again. he ran it in the 90s when we were able to dramatically reduce the reel fare roles and keep -- welfare roles and keep medicaid under control. >> let's talk a program -- >> we can continue to afford. >> let's talk about medicaid. the federal government cannot require you to take on additional medicaid patients or in order to get the new money that would be available for that, you now have the flexibility to say no to that. what are you going to do, governor? >> first of all, think of this. the federal government has a $16 trillion national debt and 40 cents of every dollar they are spending is barrowed money. and what do they want to do? add another 15 to 17 million people to the medicaid roles? it is unaffordable, unsustainable at either the federal or state level. and if we buy into it, then we have this maintenance effort requirement. when the federal government can't afford to do it, the burden is dop -- dumped on the taxpayers of the state. >> what are you going to do? >> well, i have already embarked on a goal to make iowa the healthiest state in the nation. we are working in a public-private partnership with the private sector businesses. our largest health insurance provider and with our largest supermarket chain, identifying ways we can help people to do health risk assessments and identify how they can reduce their risk factors. our goal is to partner with the community and partner with the private sector to help reduce the health care costs and not buy into a government program that is unaffordable and unsustainable. >> so you are not going to accept the -- you are not going to expand your medicaid program the way the health carrie formula -- health care reform law con contemplates, and you will not get the extra federal money that at least for awhile goes with it, correct? >> well our concern is the federal government can't afford it, and we don't think the state of iowa can do it. i think if you look at it realistically and you look at what they ought to be doing and quit digging into a deeper hole, we have to reform these entitlement programs. the health and human services committee yesterday talked about things that could be done to manage the medicaid better instead of expanding it. that's what i want to do. i don't want to embark on something unaffordable. >> governor scott, what are you going to do in flaw -- in florida about this? >> the government can't afford this. we can't afford it. it doesn't make sense to do the expansion. what they ought to be doing is creating more choice, creating more competition. it is giving the same tax breaks so you own your own policy. reward people for taking care of yourself. those are the things and to help people get back to work so they can afford their own health care. this is another government program where the federal government will run out of money, and they will put it on the states again. we can't afford it in florida. medicaid in our state is growing at three and a half times our general revenue. it is a big program. we can't afford it. what we are doing in our state is going to a managed care program. even on that we are waiting on the government for a waiver. give us the flexibility to fix our medicaid program, but don't force us into a program where the government can't afford. >> governor, you should be knowledgeable about this as a former hospital executive. hospitals are saying now, which are required in most states by law to accept whatever patients arrive whether they have insurance or not that if you don't have medicaid expansion uninsured people will continue to turn up in large numbers and hospital emergency rooms expecting and by law required to get treatment. that money will come out of the people who do have insurance or out of the hospitals. so if you don't expand medicaid, what are you going to do about that problem? >> the way to fix that is what we have proposed. we are waiting for a waiver from the federal government. it is a medicaid expansion across the state. the medicaid population will be taken care of by managed care organizations which will make sure they get to a primary care doctor or specialist so they don't end up in the emergency room. that's the way to fix it. don't take money from the federal government that we know long-term they are not able to give to us. >> let's turn to one other question. let's turn to you, governor scott. i was looking at the latest florida poll on the presidential race. it looks like a pretty good poll. 800 likely voters. it shows a slight well within the margin of error lead for president obama. one wonders about this. this is a state the president carried by only a small margin against john mccain four years ago. it is a state with an um employ meant rate 6.8%, .40 of a percentage po nie t above the national average. it is a state where you have a lot of elderly people who presumably one age-group favors the republican in this race. why is it president obama is doing so well in florida? >> well, as you said, our unemployment rates come down, and we have had the biggest drop . but this race will be just like my race in 2010. it will be 100% based on who has the right jobs plan. president obama will get hurt unless the economy continues to get better. i think governor romney if he has the right jobs plan and he gets his message out, he will be the winner here. it is about who has the right plan for jobs. >> the state of iowa suffered less than many states in the economic melt down. unemployment rate got as high as 6.3% and it is down to 5.1%. that's well, well below the national average. president obama in current polling averages in iowa we can perhaps take a look at one of those polls. here we go. they wren joying a two and a -- they are enjoying a two and a half percentage point lead. it strikes me this state looks like a tough state for governor romney. wouldn't you agree? >> well, obama carried it by 10 points last i'm. last time. he campaigned as somebody who would unite people. he has been the most devisive president. there are a lot of independents that voted for him last time and they feel they will contrast that when ronald reagan ran in 1984 his theme was good morning in america. it is revitalizing the american dream and reducing taxes and regulations. that's what i am doing as governor and that's what republican governors are doing all over the country. contrast that with obama and his illinois friends. he some from chicago and the democrats control illinois. they have the highest debt in the state per cap paw tau. >> your state is doing better. doesn't that help the president? >> it helps republicans because they can see with a republican governor we have turned it around. so has wisconsin, so has michigan, so has indiana. illinois hasn't. illinois is following the obama rule of raising taxes on corporations and individuals and driving -- and attacking the very people that you need to invest and create jobs. in bough hua we are doing the -- in iowa we are doing the opposite. >> let me ask you both quickly one question. and that is the obama campaign has mounted intensive attacks on governor romney on his record at bain capital and whether he was there when out sourcing was allegedly being done and so forth. does it appear to you now based on the polling with the president ahead in states like florida that they are having some affect, governor scott? >> look, i think it will come down. what governor romney is going to do, when you go to the polls and you decide in november it is going to be who will help me get my job back, who will help me keep my job. they will not worry an attack on bain. >> governor, your thoughts on that? >> it is pretty pathetic when the president of the united states instead of running on his record like ronald reagan did is spending his time attacking romney, attacking the entrepreneurs and the businesses we need to have the guts to invest in great jobs and grow our economy. that's what republican governors are doing. that's why our states are doing better than states like california and illinois where the democrats are continuing to raise taxes and regulations. that's the wrong direction. we need a new leader. we need a new direction. i feel at the end of the day when the american people look at the choice, obviously romney with his experience and back ground in the private sector and having rescued the olympics is a better choice than the president incumbent who is -- it is the blame game. that's the wrong thing to do for the president of the united states. >> all right, governor brandsted, governor scott, thank you for your time. up next, two political heavyweights debate the accusations against mitt romney, and the harsh attacks flying from all sides out on the campaign trail. stay with us. mitt romney's tenure at bain capital was the focus of a back and forth on the scam pain trail. here is what -- on the campaign trail. here is what president obama said on saturday jie. -- >> whereas my opponent in his private business was investing in companies the washington post calls pioneers of out sourcing. i believe in insourcing. >> and here is some of the ad put out by the romney campaign that challenges the president on that point. >> when a president doesn't tell the truth, how can we trust him to lead? the obama out sourcing attacks, misleading, unfair and untrue. there was no evidence that mitt romney shipped jobs overseas. >> joining us now to discuss all of this are two top operatives with years of experience running presidential campaigns, karl rove, founder of the super pack american crossroads and joe trippey who was howard dean's campaign manager. both are fox news contributors. welcome. the question needs to be raised by the bain attacks is whether they are having an affect, and whether they are eroding mitt romney's standing with the voters. and secondly whether the romney camp is wise to hold back as it has with its spending on ads at this stage. karl, your thoughts. >> these attacks started on may 15th with an attack from the obama campaign. and they continued ever since. on may miff -- may 15th, it was 45-45. >> 45-46. >> it should be 45-45. >> that's quite all right. >> 45-45. and then mid-july the race is 46-46. >> that's nationally. but isn't it the case, karl, that in some of the swing states you can see the president ahead. he is ahead in virginia in some polls. >> you say has it had an affect. the move since april 11th has generally been in these battleground states toward mitt romney. for example, virginia has tightened up and florida has gone from a lead outside the margin of error to essentially dead even. the national polls have essentially showed this race dead even. if there was going to be a big affect, we would see it. i do think this is not something that should be dismissed. right now there is not big movement available to either candidate jie. why is that? >> people are spending -- people are not feeling like they need to make a decision, and the voters are up for grabs and independent voters are spending a lot less time paying attention to politics and a lot more time paying attention to their lives. later this fall the question will be whether or not this information is a part of their calculation when it comes time to vote. >> your thoughts? >> i think what is shocking to me is how unready the romney people seem to be for this attack. they had to know that these documents existed that said he was the ceo, the chairman and the sole shareholder of the company. >> we are talking about is the claim that romney has repeatedly made that he left bain capital with a leave of absence in 1999 to run the olympics. we know he went to run the olympics. documents thereafter that followed the sec continued to show his name as ceo, sole owner and so on of the company. suggesting while he was doing the olympics he may have been acting with bain. >> exactly. and the defense of the ad is he wasn't there when all of these bad things happened. one, we don't know the affect of the last week is. we haven't seen data. i suspect we may look back at this and say why weren't they ready? why hasn't he -- you know, why hasn't romney released the minutes of the meetings of bain capital's meetings during the three years or something -- something pro active to say this isn't true, this isn't right. >> is it your view though that these attacks are now, and have had an affect? >> yes. my own view is i think this is really hurting romney right now. >> where do you see the evidence in polling or elsewhere? >> i haven't seen that. i am talking about as somebody who has been in a presidential campaign. you can't let this stuff go unanswered. you have to put the proof and the facts out there. it didn't seem like they were ready to do that. this is an attack that newt gingrich did in the primaries. they just seem to be flat footed with it. i don't know why, but that's it. >> two different attacks. we talked about one which was he didn't take a leave of absence to run the olympic committee and continue to run bain. total balogna. even the washington post said it is balogna. when steve jobs was the ceo of apple and took a leave of absence for medical reasons nobody continued to say well you are the guy making the day-to-day decisions. romney was busy running the olympics. they were ready for this particular attack. i agree they were not ready for the earlier attack on the six companies that obama raised up and said these companies all out sourced jobs. it took him a week to respond to say four companies did not out source jobs or move a single job overseas. they created jobs at home, and two companies were bought by bain after romney left. if the president continues to make this charge, this outrageous charge that mitt romney is guilty of felonious activity, he committed a felony. that's a big mistake. remember who is up for grabs, independent voters. they were drawn to obama in 2008 because he was going to change politics and raise the discourse. this is gutter politics of the worst chicago sort. >> this is the trap they set for romney. i don't think he is a felon. i don't think he did anything that was a felony or perjury. i don't believe anybody in the obama administration or obama campaign believes that. if you are going to come back and say i am not, i didn't, then then -- and you saw romney fall into this trap and say there was nothing that would have been wrong if i had been. if i had been the ceo. that means he has bought all of the stuff that was wrong, the out sourcing of some of these p cs they invested in. some are going to create problems for him and his base when the ads are run that show what these companies were doing. i think he is really caught flat flat -- flat footed and it will look like flip-flopping. all of the things go back to what people questioned about romney, the obama campaign has set a trap for him, and he is falling into it. i really believe that. >> each side has a challenge and has a problem. the president's problem is that he is not the candidate of 2008 that won the support of the american people. he is a cheap chicago pol taking attacks that even the washington post and other news organizations are saying are misleading, unfair and untrue. the problem for romney is he can't get stuck in the gutter with obama. >> that's a trap. >> there is a way out of the trap. that's to refute and flip. it is to say this is unfair, untrue, third party sources say this is wrong. the president is untrue, unfair, misleading. why is he doing this? his policies have failed us on getting the economy going and bringing down unemployment and reducing the deficit, so forth. >> let's get to a broader question here. romney is held back out of his campaign coffer spending. some money he can't spend until the general election, so on. what we really haven't seen from the romney campaign is an introduction of him -- a reintroduction to voters perhaps not paying attention to the republican primary season. in the meantime you have as joe has pointed out this intense effort to define him by the obama campaign. isn't it possible and isn't it a risk that the obama campaign will succeed in defining romney in a way, and you can see it in some of the polling where people think he is out for himself and so forth. you can see that he is more out for himself trying to fix the economy and so forth that he will be defined in a way indelible by the time he gets around to reintroduce himself at the convention or whatever. your thoughts, carl? >> i don't agree. there is plenty of time for him to define himself. he faces a caw nun drum. one of the best ways to define yourself is describe one of the things you will do. the more he describes what he will do when he is president -- >> isn't he doing that enough? >> i don't think he is. i understand there is a very serious question here. how much you layout now because people in the news business -- you lay it out now, and by labor day they say that's old news. right now remember, we have had this intensive attack, as you say, the intensive attack has not had an impact. what they are trying to make a decision about is how much do they hold back and layout later, and how much do they layout now to keep developing an image of who romney is. >> two mistakes, they haven't defined him, and they need to do two things. not releasing the tax returns, not releasing the minutes of the bain meetings, all of these things that could put all of this stuff to rest, or is there something they are hiding? that's something the obama campaign continues to push. if romney waits and waits and waits and caves to the pressure and releases things, that will create a bigger problem as people are looking at who they will make a decision about. >> one of the risks on the obama side, he is spending a lot of money. his burn rate is huge. he has a gigantic campaign, offices in every state. he is going through an awful lot of money and frantically raising money everywhere. is there a risk he over does it early and not enough left late? >> i think there is two things. they didn't see this race broadening out into as many states as it has broadened out to. >> oat bough ma campaign. >> the obama campaign. i think they thought they would be trimming field organizations and some of their television spending as this got down to four, five, six states. instead it is expanding out to nine or ten states. >> that's a sign of weakness, isn't it? >> it is a sign of the race getting tighter and not being able to put romney away. >> but i do think there is a chance if we look back it will be this week where romney -- where things started going wrong for him unless they can get on track. if i were giving campaign advice, tax released and minutes of the meeting and get out ideas of the economy and fight. >> i agree with the last one. i do think he needs to step up the forward looking agenda, but let's be honest. something will satisfy president obama and his team. a democrat who is a partner at bain capital, in fact he sought the democratic nomination in 2010 came out and said, i was one of the people in charge of bain. romney took a leave of absence and had no involvement in our decision making. that did nothing to satisfy the obama house. >> there is a lot of money and in a position to step into what may perceive as the breech with an ad campaign that would deal with these things. what do you do? >> you should turn on your television more. between the first of may and the end of july, i have seen numbers that indicate that between obama and his allies there are -- they will spend about $115 million, $116 million on television ads. romney and his outside allies will spend $152 million on television. we spend 22 million last moo and 25 million -- and 25 million this month. >> the message? >> look romney can develop a positive message. somebody needs to continue to remind the american people of the explicit failure of the president to deliver on his promises and to get the economy going and do something about the deficit and put americans back to work and change the tone in washington. >> what do you think of -- about this? >> american crossroads and the super packs is what has been keeping romney -- >> you think their approach not to do positive stuff but hit obama? >> it is hard for an independent committee or a super pack i think to do good positive on a candidate. i am talking as an operative. it is a lot easier to do the negative and to make that case. i suspect that will continue to happen. the issue here is do similar super pack spending, does that ram up on the democratic side in it hasn't as of yet. it started to, but not in a way they have on the guys on the other side. >> democratic super packs have a disadvantage. >> absolutely. and obama doesn't have that kind -- >> president obama the dnc have raised $512 million. mitt romney and the rnc have raised 389. these super packs on the republican side and outside groups are evening it up, but the president has a financial advantage. >> carl, joe, thanks for sharing your thoughts. coming up, our sunday panel on the continued speculation surrounding mitt romney's possible vice presidential race. back in a moment. 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>> i think mitt romney has spent the weekend thinking about this at his country house in name m that. if you talk to some senior people on the campaign, they really don't know, and i think they are telling the truth. romney will make this decision with surprisingly little input from other pros and advisors and other governors, and maybe that's fine. it will be his pick. >> so what is the percentages in terms of politically speaking of a pick now which is abnormally ifort. early. >> one of the up sides of choosing early according to insiders on the campaign is it would give someone -- it would give the campaign some help. it would give governor romney somebody else to be traveling around the country and doing fundraisers and making news in all of these small towns across ohio, across iowa, across virginia, across florida. governor romney is not doing much campaigning. he has one event a day. the obama administration, the vice president, the cabinet members, other people are really out flanking them in terms of on the road local news coverage. if a vice presidential candidate was pecked early -- picked early you have band width out here. >> reinforcements. >> at the same time it takes out the excitement in this the campaign hopes to save for august. i am not how exciting a pick this will be anyway. we know the structure of the election right now, so people are doing it early say why not? there is no downside. we will see. >> there is a downside. the downside is if you announce it now or over the next week and a half or so before he goes on his trip to the olympics and to israel and to poland, what will happen with that trip which is a very important one for romney? it will get snowed under, overshadowed by who his vice presidential pick is. that's not just a one day event. there will be stories for three or four days about it, and then stories and investigative reports and so on, and we will go on and romney's trip to the middle east in particular and of course the olympics is important. he wants coverage to remind people of his role in the 2002 olympics in salt lake city. for that reason it will be some time in early august and early to middle august when i think he will name someone. >> you don't think he will wait until the convention? >> there is no reason to do that. you can do it a week or two beforehand. i think he probably will. >> but if he did it before the convention by a week or two, then whatever success -- success expense is left is gone. >> my viewing schedule is thrown off. i don't know what i will be watching. i will have to watch you. it will be a problem. what is the drama at the conventions anyway? right now the big ticket would be if he introduced his vp selection to some hoopla and all of the delegates stood up and cheered. >> you think he should wait? >> the problem is he is just having a bad time, mr. romney is. and this week they put out condoleezza rice. >> how do you know that. >> it didn't go to a drudge. the drudge report had it at the top banner, condoleezza rice under serious consideration by the romney team. it was at a juncture when it was in their best interest to change the conversation. that's why that was done. otherwise we know rob portman is a guy in the conversation -- >> well, swree to do this. we have to talk names. your thought. who would be the smart choice? >> the smart choice at this point is reliable, ready to serve rob portman, the senator from ohio. >> apart from the fact that condoleezza rice has said emphatically she wouldn't do it, do you think she wouldn't be the best choice anyway? >> she would be a terrific choice. actually she has given great speeches, state party chair men like her, but she is pro choice. >> she did give the speech at the romney retreat. i was there and romney was impressed. if you want to be on the ticket, give the best speech you have ever given while the republican candidate is a few feet away and watching. that was the case. this would break up republican unity and republicans have come together behind romney pretty well. >> she is a moderate on some issue. >> she is a moderate on a lot of issues she is not liberal on, but in any case, i agree. rob portman makes sense. >> senator portman is one of the finalists in the mix. he would be a good choice for governing, working with members of congress on the hill. but former minnesota governor tim paw 11 tee is still in the mix. he has a good narrative. he talks about the sames club republican. he would provide a good balance to governor romney's questions of bain and wealth. those two are in the mix. you have to hold out the possibility of a paul ryan or bobbie gindel. i would put the top four or the last four down to those four. >> and mark orubio has not been mentioned. what do you think about orubio? >> they are not good picks. they would be boring picks. it is a refer referendum on obama and it is boring and no excitement. you can defend a portman or palenti pick. the people should you pick paul ryan, the leader of the national republican party intellectually and able political politician, chris christie, the most exciting and dynamic around, mark orubio, exciting young senator or conde rice. much better pick. >> let's say he could talk conde rice into doing it. they have a bill of par particulars and she is moderately pro choice. >> i would regard her on suspicion on both issues and mitt romney would have to explain he will have a hawkish foreign policy and condoleezza rice would have to say, and she could easily, she goes along with that. she is moderately pro choice, pro life,ett set raw. i would like toy ryan or christie, but foolish to say politically conde rice would be a tempting choice. ryan or christie -- >> what about the problem of echoes of the bush administration and in her case both bush administrations and in portman's case, the most recent bush add strags. >> problem? could be. >> i don't think romney wants an exciting running mate. what he wants is a running mate he is comfortable with. romney is a cautious guy. we all know that. >> what about the idea that if he runs the race he might lose. >> that's possible, but a guy who takes a risk on his vice presidential nominee could lose as well. romney is not a guy who takes a lot of risk. you have to remember who he is. i love paul ryan. i don't think he will take paul ryan because he doesn't want the budget to be in the campaign. if ryan is his running mate that would be a big issue or one of them. >> one thing that governor romney has said in private gatherings with fundraisers a as recent as earlier this week, in colorado i talked to a couple people and said the top criteria is they can no questions will be asked about the readiness to be president. that eliminates some of those people from the list. i think it gets back down to what ann romney said in an interview on the fourth of july that the pick will be someone whose personality will be more like my husband's. >> she is a woman from new hampshire and has great chemistry from the candidate and mrs. romney. >> well said. panel, swree to take a break. the obama campaign goes all out as we know and attacks his time at bain capital. question, is it working? we will be right back. romney only says there is no evidence that he was in charge at that point. but newly disclosed documents show romney was sole stockholder, ceo and chairman when jobs were shipped overseas. >> because if you don't have any fresh ideas, then you use failed tactics to scare voters. >> well, those are two ads and are part of what has to be one of the nastiest weeks so far in the race for the 2012 what house. question, joe trippey suggested that the obama campaign has set a neat trap with the argument that romney was there at bain when this gnaw -- nephareuos out sourcing of jobs took place. and he said romney walked right into it. juan? >> i think it is not only he walked into it, but he has let it sit there. he has let it stew, and he has let it create an impression that defines him. that's exactly what the obama team is trying to do. define him at a time of exhibiting un-- of economic uncertainty, and it was reinforced by his refusal to deal with the tax return issue. he just won't released the tax returns, and it appears either -- >> what do you mean? he released the 2010, 2011. >> he did that under pressure during the primaries, buts he has not released others. >> the back taxes ? >> everybody releases 12 years, and it was a practice started by george romney in 1968. he has not released that. it comes like revelations in the news media he has offshore investments -- >> had. >> he had a company in bermuda and swiss bank accounts. it is muddying the waters and hurting mitt romney. >> i think it is hurting romney a little it is taking the luster off the bain experience. it is important to romney's candidacy. what it hasn't done is had an affect on the one on one numbers against president obama. they are basically tight. in fact, i think romney under polls by two or three points. >> why do you say that? >> because they are polling -- most of the big public polls are polling registered voters or all adults. and those don't represent precisely the universe of voters that will see the likely voter these will see on november 6th. i think when the polsters start going after those and some do, but they will find out romney is doing a little better. >> what about wednesday? >> well that's also true in wing states. in swing states. >> obama has a lead there where the ads are running. >> the ads are -- of course they are running. i do think the attacks on bain have hurt him somewhat. i don't know what romney has been doing, but when you are not on offense, you are on defense, and he has been on defense the past week. >> i was struck by the five interviews that governor romney did. it was not part of the plan of the week. he said in an interview on fox that if you are responding, you are losing. well then 48 hours later he started responding five times. and his answer to the bain capital question, they are not unsurprising questions. every time he ran for office and he ran for governor in 2002 and he ran for president in 2008, these bain questions are out there. but of course the volume in which they are coming now in a presidential campaign are very intense. and he still cannot do a simple answer to the question. i thought he would rise above it all and said this is silliness. i was running the olympics and this is not what the campaign is about. instead he demanded an apology from the president and he was deep in the weeds of what an entity is and other things. who knows if he was running bain. >> what do you think? was he running bain while he was doing the olympics ? >> he was not running bain because he was involved in the olympics, but he was involved in some respect. but it doesn't matter. he lost the tactics war here. another year has gone by. >> it is weird for governor romney to say i wasn't running bain as if it was something wrong. governor romney was running bain successfully. >> that's the trap. >> he needs to defendant it. he is proud of what he did. he should released the tax returns tomorrow. it is crazy. you have to released six, eight, 10 back tax returns, and take the hit and give a serious speech on thursday in which he says, okay we have had this ridiculous debate on when i took my leave from bain and when i didn't. look at my tax returns. now have a debate about capitalism. let's have a debate about jobs. here is what i am proud of having done and i will defend and strengthen business in this country and businesses help make this country great. here is my agenda going forward which is a free market agenda. ihe has to give a big speech in defense of capitalism, and that will elevate this race above the tactile back and forth which i do think he is on the margin of losing. >> i agree with that, but he has to have an agenda to talk about. it has to be flushed out more. he needs an agenda on the fiscal policy, and he needs to have one on jobs. he feeds to have one on taxes. we know he is in phaser of a 20% across -- he is in favor of a 20% across the board cut of income taxes. what else? how does that fit in with the bigger tax plan? he needs to start flushing some of that out and do it now. we see the downside this past week where there was nothing he could turn to. there was no counter theme in the campaign he could turn to. >> i like bill's suggestion very much, but bill if he puts out the tax returns i think he has smart people working for him who have made a calculation. there are something in those tax returns who will set a fire. they would rather not reveal -- >> we probably don't think he is a tax cheat. we probably don't think -- we don't think he was engaged in any illegal activity. what could be in the tax returns in your estimation that would go beyond the point that seems to be fairly well established that he is a rich guy? >> that's a low standard. he didn't do anything illegal? he is running for president of the united states. the american people don't want somebody who is putting money in swiss acts, bermuda accounts. >> why not? >> what is obama's message? bet on america. >> mitt romney was having his swiss bank accounts and obama was worshiping at jeremiah wright's church. he distanced himself and then gave a big speech about race relations and was well received. people felt coming back to the right issues was petty. obama addressed it as much as he could. i think it is true in this case. no one thinks mitt romney is fundamentally is a crook or anything like that or a tax dodge. there is no i have had -- there is no evidence of that. it will take two or three days and put the issue to bed and then have a debate going forward about cap tammism. >> that's the best hope scenario it is two or three days. when he put out the 2010 returns we discovered there were 20 entities we had no idea about previously. >> if obama can survive jeremiah wright, romney can survive bain. if the majority of the company thinks it is a terrible thing to run bain capital, mitt romney won't be elected president. that's what he did most of his life. >> the romney campaign believes that right now the only people paying attention to this are people in the belt way from along the mid-atlantic, that people in the country aren't paying attention to this. we will find out if they are right or not. it is striking that we haven't heard many big speeches from this candidate about his big ideas and other things. if they want to change the subject that's how they should do it. that's one of the reasons they should go on the foreign chip. that's what they are hoping -- foreign trip. >> let me go around once. romney campaign is clearly holding back, part out of necessity. and they are letting themselves be out spent on ads. what ads they are running are mostly negative right now. question, how much trouble will it cause romney to have held back or is october soon enough to hit with your barrage? >> the truth is they are not being out spent. when you add the super pack money into what the romney catch pain is spending it is more like 150 million over the three-month period here in the summer to about 115 million. >> so bottom line? >> they are spending -- their spending is fine. >> thanks, panel, see you next week. don't forget panel plus which is coming up next where our group picks up on our discussion on our website. we will post the video before noon eastern time. make sure to follow us on twitter. twitter at fox news sunday. we will be right back. >>. >> brit: as we discussed earlier speculation mounts as who mitt romney will choose as running mate. they put together a campaign commercial for one possible ticket. have a look. ♪ >> rice and ro romney the new america treat. perfect choice because she is a woman and she is block and rice and romney the new american treat ♪. >> brit: that is it for today. chris will be back next week. in the meantime, have a great week.