That big White Building surrounded by Counter Terrorist experts. There are 1,500 police surrounding the bad guys. It is 6 00 in new york city. It is noon in france. You are watching continuing live coverage on fox friends. Two brothers suspected of carrying out the deadly terror attacks in paris appear to have taken a hostage and right now they are surrounded. A massive operation to capture them is currently underway. Heres what we know so far. At least one sniper is now in a position across the street from the c. T. D. Printing company where the suspects are holed up. This is in a small town to the north and to the east of paris. Those suspects holding a hostage believed to be a woman. French officials have been in contact with the two brothers. The two brothers say they want to die as marytrs. As elisabeth was telling you, the entire area is surrounded by hundreds of heavily armed officers. Overall there is about 90,000 French Military and police on this operation for the last three days. Locals have been told to stay inside their homes obviously and all nearby schools have been locked down for awhile the airports were locked down. But now we do get some reports that youre allowed to fly. Charles de gaulle airport is seven miles away from this particular Printing Company. Within the last halfhour the two closed runways have been opened up. Meanwhile were live in paris with the breaking details. Greg, pick up the story. Last night when we went to bed, we believed the kouachi brothers were in the forest. They ditched the car or they had driven a car into the forest. There were Police Helicopters with night vision goggles overhead. What happened . Yes, a lot of dramatic things happened. Again, they had hijacked one car. It was seen yesterday morning at a gas station when they robbed the place of gas and food, drove the car off to the enl of that forest and then left the car and entered the forest on foot. Thats when, as you noted, we were tracking a massive manhunt through a big rural area, a forest the size of paris. It turns out what probably happened is early this morning they went to a secondary road, not a highway, a secondary road running alongside that forest. Were about 45 miles outside of paris. They stopped and hijacked a car, small compact car, put the passenger out of the car. We know that because that individual, a woman then called the police and said your two main suspect theyre in my car right
now. And what was alarming, this happened early this morning, friday morning french time, that car started steaming towards paris heading in the direction that the Police Feared most, that in fact they might try to do Something Else inside paris. They had set up a roadblock across this secondary road and about 8 00 a. M. Or so approximately that is where a shootout occurred. The police were at the roadblock and the car sped through. There was gunfire exchanged. The car stormed on and then ended up in this Business Park, this Industrial Park in the small town about 25 miles north of paris population 8,500. They entered a business, printing supply business. Apparently there were five people inside that building. Somehow four got out. We have reports that one ran away and perhaps three others were somehow released. We dont know. But we do know that these two individuals which had
been variously identified as absolutely the suspects in this case or probably the suspects in this case although odds are that they absolutely are are in this building with a hostage. Now what were also hearing in addition to the huge amount of Police Special force, antiterror and military surrounding this location negotiations have begun. There is contact with one negotiator, we are told, referring to the particular sensitivities perhaps if you would say of these thugs, these killers. That is the religious orientation that they have. So theyre trying to mix cultural messages with a firm message that theyve got to give themselves up. As you and your guests have been reporting as we have been hearing the hostage is the game changer. We were hearing things like ring of steel around this Industrial Park. A war zone. There were shots exchanged at that situation as well. But now everything has slowed down. Were watching live feeds of the Business Park right now. Ive got to tell you it looks fairly casual. Its not a dog day afternoon al pacino situation. Youve got French Police standing around. Not hiding behind cars. You did note the sniper; thats important. Ive got to believe right now negotiation rather than force is playing the upper hand. Again also what were saying is that were hearing from some analysts that when it is necessary to use force, they will use force. One analyst was on french tv saying its just about game time. We dont know when that game time is. We dont know when that game is up. A few things stood out about your rundown. Theyre in the woods and they have a chance to get out or perhaps go farther and deeper. Instead they go back to where the population is. And they had a chance to kill the woman. Instead they just took her car knowing that shes
going to pick up the phone and communicate on what just happened. Yet shes alived to live. Yet we know theyre blood thirsty killers because we witnessed them on video. What do you make of the contradiction . One of your analysts made a good point. When they stormed the Charlie Hebdo Newspaper Office on wednesday, they were in charge. They had the surprise. They had the guns. They had the masked faces. They had the rocket launcher. And so they were in control of the situation. Now they are on the run. Now theyre being hunted. And now this is what the French Authority are hoping for, they are willing to make a mistake or happening to make a mistake another crucial mistake im sure we pointed out before and will point out again, one of them said kouachi left his identification card in the car. Thats a major mistake. Theyre going to make mistakes. Again the game changer theyve got an individual in there a civilian with them and there have already been 12 innocent lives lost in this. French authorities do not want 13, do not want the number to be 13 many one quick question for you here. The suspect named the third suspect, the 18yearold that surrendered early on, was more information extracted from him as it pertains to these individuals right now holed up in that building . Youve got to believe that hes being very closely interrogated for every nuance possible from this person. Hes the brotherinlaw, we have heard, not confirmed, brotherinlaw of one of these, one of the two main suspect. So there was a possible family connection. He says he was innocent. He says he was at school. But he was clearly identified. Its our reckoning that he
probably was driving the getaway car. I have to add one more thing. Im going to be careful with this because it only comes from one source but the source is the main tv channel here a very reliable News Organization they are looking at the killing of that policewoman yesterday inside of paris. We were asking very closely of authorities is there a connection between the killing of that policewoman and the killing of the 12 around the Charlie Hebdo office. Tf1 is alleging there could be connection. Well be following that. If thats true youre talking about other killers out there. I will not stand by that story. I will not confirm it but it is a responsible News Organization putting that out right now. Were talking to the interior ministry to see if they can back that up. Greg is in paris where we are covering the story. 2002 bad guys from the murder of the two bad guys from the murder of those dozen people at the newspaper in france are believed to be holed up in that sprawling business there. It is a Printing Company in a small town about 20 miles away from paris called dammartinengoele. According to reuters isis, the Islamic State militant group is praising the gunmen behind the killings at the paris headquarters of Charlie Hebdo, referring to them as heroic jihadists. Meanwhile, ten minutes after the top of the hour. Ten afternoon in paris. Joining us on the phone former navy seal and f. B. I. Special agent Jonathan Gill yam. He was a member of the joint Terrorism Task force. Jonathan, thank you for joining us. We know that the kouachi brothers are inside that printing building. We know they have one hostage. We know they have said they
want to die marytrs. How are they going to do that . Are they going to blow up the building . Burn it down . What, as you look at it whats your worst fear . First off, i want to know if they meant to go to that Printing House. Because the fact that they went after cartoonists and the people who made the cartoon, did they just happen to end up in a Printing House . A very interesting point because if thats the case they may have already had a plan. Thats the b part of their plan to be there. If its not a part of their plan they may still have certain aspects of the way they want to go out. Were they using a rocket earlier in the earlier attacks . Do they still have those types of things with them now. Jonathan, one thing that could be clear, anyone who owns that printing place would know the secret ways to get in, how stock is
delivered. They would know the schematics of the building. If it was random and they just went for shelter, this is where the terrorists are at a disadvantage and anyone who worked in that building, designed that building or was able to escape from that building would be able to help the police force and counterterrorism officials get inside. Right. We have to look at and divine define what terrorism is. It is a tactic. Terrorism is a tactic where they take fear and they try to start using fear to cause a political change in the country in which they live. And what were seeing now is we saw an initial attack which used terrorism but at the same time it was going after the people that were drawing these cartoons and had this freedom of speech. Now its moved into a crosscountry chase into this facility where theres a hostage. And they know the more
violent they can make this happen the more on stage it can be seen across the world, that terror will leak into the system and will start to cause problems down the line. Jonathan, when were talking about this tactic and the force of fear, we have a hostage situation. Certainly no one wants this death toll to increase one more person. Take us into the mind set if you were in there as a negotiator, what can you say . What do you not say . How do you anticipate their responses to those tactical negotiations . We know there has be communication. Negotiators can do amazing things. The main goal of a negotiator is to get on to the same mindset and the same level as the person thats doing the attack. And thats where theyre good at stringing us along is that they let them
engage and let them think we are really interested in what they have to say. What happens there is, one, they do have a real cause theyre trying to get out they can continue to talk about that and wear them down. At the same time theyre looking for opportunities to get a tactical theme in there if possible. Heres the problem with groups like this many when youre looking at somebody who maybe took their family hostage because they have a divorce crisis, a lot of times you can whittle those people down to the bones so you can talk them out. But these individuals, they want to fight. So there may be a limited amount of time theyre going to talk and you have to have your guys ready to go in there at a moments notice. Jonathan, we understand the police are moving the press away from this particular printing business into a nearby village. Also apparently according to reports out of france there are reports that the hostage taken was a woman
but heres the new part. Apparently the suspects pretended to be policemen when they entered the building. We have a former senior c. I. A. Operations officer. Gary, we also understand they apparently are scrambling the phone lines and the internet as well. Why would they be doing that . Of course theyre going to isolate them. They dont want them to get Technical Support or tactical support or even emotional support from anyone in the area or abroad. When you had the mumbai attacks is en or eight years ago you had command and control of terrorists from pakistan. You dont want these guys on the phone with anyone from yes from yemen or paris. When you see the size of
this complex thats going to be a daunting task to get inside that billing and to get on top of them. Without a doubt. They are going to have one inner perimeter cll pin these which will pin these guys down. Then they will have a outer perimeter because they want people to be secure. They dont want anyone to break in the system. The inner perimeter makes sure there is no course to break out. The outer perimeter makes sure that nobody gets in there that may be in the media that may be of support to the guys on the inside. As i stated earlier, it is probably, i would guess the gign, the tactical intervention force, frances premier Counterterrorism Force that can act internationally most famous for their
daring rescue back in 1994 on the 24th of december that hostage situation there that took place in marseille on aircraft 8689. Originally it was reported two runways were shut down, apparently now open. What does that signal to you . The fremple are using a the french are using a preponderance of caution. They wouldnt want any fire fight to hit incoming aircraft. We dont know what the approach patterns are. They probably made sure all approaching aircraft are going to be clear of that area because you dont know whats going to happen here. You dont know what theyre armed with. You dont know if theyve got larger caliber weapons. They have possession of one of of the three from the initial attacks. They have been doing debriefings. They may know about the presence of explosions or any type of dangerous sort of armaments they may possess. The news we told folks
about yesterday as we look at the french countryside is that the eldest of the two brothers apparently did go to a Training Camp in yemen. That could explain how well they were able to handle those weapons on wednesday on the streets of paris. What else do you learn at those terror Training Camps . Do they learn about taking hostages . Do they learn about blowing up buildings . Frequently this terrorist training begins with ideological training. Once theyre certain that they have them where they want them ideologically they will go into small arms tactics, then into the creation of improvised explosion devices. These courses will be six, eight weeks some longer. Some will be sent back to advanced training courses leadership training. Groups like al qaeda when we invaded afghanistan 14 years ago had a terrorist university where individuals had special
buildings that did alias documents, other buildings that did tactics others that did explosives. Quite extensive. It demonstrates their commitment to making war on the west. Those were the good old days when there was just a hand full of terror bases. Now they have all of north africa. They have a wide swath possibly the beginning of a country with isis and the syria and iraq region. If we want to get on top of this, you could honestly say theyre in control of libya. If we want to get on top of this were talking about a massive operation rather than just get the people behind you to get into afghanistan. We also know that the younger brother was looked looked up to zarqawi at which time he did prison time because he was helping ferrying fighters to help zarqawi when he was the man in iraq. Brian, we are in the beginning of a battle of civilizeation. The arab spring caused the collapse of secular states
across the middle east. There are major swathes of territory that are ungoverned now and islamic cal fat terrorists have taken control of syria, iraq yemen libya. This is a growing phenomenon. It flies in the face of everything that seive liesation represents. Nothing is that civil ization represents. We are in a real fight here. And anyone who says that this isnt islamic terrorism is a useful idiot to the other cause. Absolutely. It plays into what they want. We understand these guys were on the u. S. Nofly zone because one of them was a convicted terrorist. But the level of surveillance done on these guys the kouachi brothers, by the french seems like
theyre not very serious about keeping track of the bad guys. The french are serious about it. The problem is the scale of the problem is so great now, when you talk about hundreds of nogo zones [no audio] we just lost gary. Hes talking about the millions of muslims who have towns and regions that the french cops evidently dont go into anymore. They let them police themselves. At least 1,000 french citizens have gone over and trained with isis and other outfits. Joining us is the former under secretary of defense for intelligence under president george w. Bush. General boykin was also one of the hostage negotiators, part of the team going back to the iranian hostage situation. General, as you look at whats happening inside that printing plant there
on the french countryside, your observations . My observations are that in spite of what some might say that these terrorists still believe that they are in control at least of their own individual situation. They are not going to come out of there alive. There are only a couple of possible outcomes both of which include i think these two guys being marytrs and thats exactly what they want to do. Were thankful that youre with us this morning, this hostage situation just about 25 miles outside of paris. Snipers are posted Police Standing guard. When these terrorists say they want to die as marytrs, whats the best way tactically to make sure theyre not taking anybody with them this time . I wont tell you that and i think greg just said they are starting to move the reporters to an outer circle, getting them out. I dont think theres any
question that the french, particularly gign who i have worked with and actually run some operations with over the years and theyre very good, i think that they are in the process of maneuvering now to get into a position to ultimately try and take these people down. What they have to be sure of is that they do it at a time that gives the best opportunity to protect the lives of the hostages or hostage and also to try and do it at a time when there is the least amount of vulnerability or probability that these guys will set the building on fire or use some kind of explosive device. Theyre moving into position now, these hostage takers terrorist islamic jihadists want publicity. They want the world to know what theyre doing and why and i think theyll drag it
out a bit longer unless the gign gets in the right position and pulls the string on an operation. General, they might be evil but theyre not dumb. It seems as though theyre staying a step ahead. Even though theyre saying according to the quote in a communications with the police who are surrounding them, they want to die as marytrs, theyre certainly doing a lot to stay alive. They profile a little bit differently than were used to. They are different. There are some puzzling things about these guys. First of all, i dont think theres any question these are real professionals. The training they have had has paid off and they demonstrated that when they perpetrated this event there at the magazine. But i also think im just puzzled by the fact that theyve announced they wont kill a woman. They gave a dog back to a car driver that they stole and they hate dogs. They just hate dogs. That they have avoided some
opportunities to kill people. This is a really strange situation which i cant i certainly dont quite comprehend and cant explain. Remember they carjacked to get the latest escape vehicle that got them to where they are right now. They carjacked a woman and let her live knowing full well shes going to communicate who they are, what they were doing and the direction they were heading. Exactly. There are some things here that are inexplainable as far as im concerned. But at the end of the day i think that they are hardcore jihadists and i think that ultimately they will not come out of this alive and theyre going to get as much publicity for their cause as possible which is going to increase the recruiting to their cause. At the end of the day whether its al qaeda isis, al qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula or whatever, boko haram theyre all motivated by the same theology. Thats what compels them to
do these kinds of things. They need publicity because it enhances their recuting. General boykin, apparently they wound up in that building after a shootout with the police. After, as brian said, they carjacked that peugeot 206 and threw the lady out, the police eventually stopped them. There was some gunfire. There was a suggestion that somebody had been killed. Nobody was killed. But there is a report out that apparently to get into that building they pretended to be the police, which suggests theyre still in the Tactical Gear. Yeah. I think so. I mean when would they have had an opportunity to change . These people are good. Theyre good at what they do. Theyve not only planned for the actual takedown at the magazine but they have also, theyre executing contingency plans right now. I think they made some key mistakes and one of them was not having a vehicle or
multiple vehicles already prepositioned somewhere that they could immediately go to and change. That may be a flaw in their plan or they may have not been able to get there. But these are sophisticated terrorists. I think its a reflection of whats growing in these nogo zones as more and more of them are radicalized and sent off for training or sent to fight with isis and other organizations in the middle east. There are reports now that police some are reporting that that policewoman that was killed is now being closely linked to the brothers responsible for that terrorist that was yesterday . She had been on the job for a couple of weeks. As greg told us a little while ago, general, tf1, the permanent Television Network in france, suggested that there was a connection. Now theyre looking very closely at it and it does look like there is a connection. This could be a giant web. We dont know how it all
ends. Thats why i strongly object to this whole idea of a lone wolf operation. Everybodys connected in one way or another. Certainly at a minimum theologically, but these people that are perpetrating these events are connected. They may be operating more independently than the guys were looking at right now some of these socalled lone wolves. But there is a network there. It is all connected. Guys like anwr al alawki motivating people like nidal hasan, that is a network of people motivated by these fire brands. Chowdry is another one. He is stimulating people to perpetrate these acts by
his fire brand rhetoric and his encouragement of them to go out and kill infidels and to start establishing jihadist areas in places like london and paris and brussels. The kouachi are expected to be inside that white facility, which is a printing plant north of paris seven miles from de gaulle airport. Were talking to general boykin. What is your take on mi5 coming out yesterday saying new attacks are planned against the west and iconic targets. The al qaeda militants in syria are planning to hit western targets and inflict mass casualties. We know thats always the goal but for mi5 to announce it yesterday while the manhunt was still on i thought was something significant. You know its interesting. Go back to 1994 when a thing called the Explanatory Memorandum was discovered in annandale, virginia, here in the
nations capital. It laid out a five phase plan for how the Muslim Brotherhood would take over america. If you look at that carefully there is a stealth phase that ultimately leads up to an actual kinetic phase where they start attacking targets. The targets are symbolic initially but there are significant infrastructure targets later. The primary reason is to strike fear. And the british and the french and germans and brussels, theyre all coming to grips with the fact that the violent phase of this Jihad Program is starting to unfold and they know it now. The question is can they stop it . Also were getting a report from herats newspaper a cleric from the Islamic State group claims the radical militia was responsible for this deadly attack even though these two assailants are set to say tell everybody were from al qaeda and
yemen. He goes on to say we started with the french operation. Tomorrow will be britain america and others. It is a warning to all of those taking part in the americanled coalition that they say killed Islamic State members. Thank you for joining us, general. Id like to keep the general there and bring in walid phares, fox news terror analyst and so much more who forecasted this revolution. Walid, your reaction to the Islamic State taking credit. Were about to predict it. At one point in time one of the jihadist organizations would have to take credit. Let me take you to the other side. What the two brothers are tryingo do now is not escape. They know it is over. What theyre trying to do right now is to stretch material for the video for the narrative, for the film. For example, what we dont realize is that those who are going to narrate next week and after are going to say two brothers were encircled by 1,200 French Policemen. Two brothers were able to terrorize france for three days. What would 100 brothers do . So what these two are trying to do right now is to write the tales of the future. And the more time they gain the more isis and al qaeda and others are going to be struck as a narrative for the future. Walid, thank you for being here. The narrative seems to be very specific when it comes to recruiting. But in terms of many in the media, many get out there with very generic terminology when it comes to two individuals like this who are radical
jihadists, yet no one can wrap their mouths around that. What is the danger in not calling these two terrorists exactly what they are . The danger is whats happening. Let me go back to the initial point about u. S. Counterterrorism and european counterterrorism effort working on these issues for the past ten years. Over the past six years various agencies using words such as jihaddism caliphate, everything were seeing now has been removed. [inaudible] removed any use of this terminology. If you cant use this terminology, you cant understand what the suspect, what theyre saying is were putting them on nofly list. Okay. If you put them on nofly list, what is the consequence if you dont know these people are preparing, mobilizing, if you dont know these words are being used by individuals who eventually and potentially are going
to become terrorists. We need a massive change in our counterterrorism policy. Walid, were getting a report from sky news that apparently there are reports of shouting there at the printing plant but at the same time theyre reporting no panic. The police are moving cautiously from the the scene seems to be focused. Calmness continues where police are moving very, very slowly and taking it very, very carefully. Walid, while you say this is the end game here for the kouachi brothers there in that particular printing plant, their message will live on for a long time in the jihadist handbook. You want to be like these guys who did so much with so little. Absolutely. The kouachi brothers are going to be a benchmark in the narrative of the jihadists. I mean we are able to see right now they went inside
paris, destroyed a news room, killed highvalue targets and then engaged the french army and Security Forces for that long. And its not over yet. Of course the french governments First Priority is to save the hostage. Thats all they see right now. The priority for these two jihadi brothers is to gain time. You mentioned earlier that the french government is trying to cut them off. No facebook no communication. They dont want these individuals to make final statement, final marytrdom statement which explains why the isis [inaudible] when it comes to the newspaper of a couple of days ago and even this printing plant or this printing facility eight miles away from paris is that theyre soft targets. And like brian just quoted that reuters report that said isis is taking credit for it, they say first france, tomorrow britain, next the United States there are a lot of soft targets in all those places. And there are a lot of jihadists. What has changed between now and the past past five six years is that the demographics of jihadists has gone high. The europeans know there are thousands of fighters you add to them somalia, add to them yemen, mali, libya, nigeria. Youre talking about a signet work by the thousands. Im not saying all of them are in france. Inside europe the 27 members of the european union, if you have the passport of one country, you can move to 27 other countries. You can even fly to canada and the United States. Indeed. Walid, stand by. Lets dial in tom mcinerny, your observation regarding isis taking credit for this . I think it was a natural for them to want to take a copycat. I dont particularly think theyre necessarily involved steve. But look, they say they want to die as marytrs. They could have died a lot sooner if they want to die as marytrs. They have a larger agenda i believe. And it is the end game. I think we all agree that it is the end game. They are in a very difficult position because its a large building that can be infiltrated. The fact is theyve got to watch out for hostage. When you start taking hostages, then you go into a different ball game which means they want to live a little longer. Otherwise you wouldnt take a hostage. Now i dont think they had planned on going into that printing plant. Its too big. Trying to watch a hostage
continuously and then cover that huge printing plant they have put themselves in a very bad position. Its going to be an end game, and i think that the french have the skill to get that hostage out alive and either kill both of them or take them out with certain other ways that neutralize them. I dont want to particularly talk about. Heres the quote from one of these clerics of isis. We started with the french operation for which we take responsibility. Tomorrow well be in britain, america and others. And they go on to say its because anyone taking part in the coalition against the Islamic State, which is basically youve had only negligible success to this point, where were doing about 80 of the strikes. And as far as i can tell the french and the british say well help you in iraq. Were not going to touch syria. Even those these gentlemen they are not gentlemen, these terrorists say theyre from al qaeda and yemen, it seems the
focus between al qaeda and isis, it seems like the isis wants the focus. Theyre almost jealous. Well, they are, and theyre extremely, extremely good brian, at how they use propaganda and publicity. They are very good. They are better than al qaeda at it and theyre taking advantage of of it. It already started in the United States with the killing of the two new York Police Officers and all the other event weve had in the United States. The fact is theyre all trying to bring this together. The reason im not sure they want to be marytrs is because they took a hostage. They didnt have to do that. But they want to prolong this for some reason. Now im not sure if they want to prolong it into a trial because theyll get even more publicity. That will go on. Or if they want to end it right now. We dont know that. But what we do know is they have been on foot so their
ammunition and satchel charges, they dont have all that. We know exactly from the lady that the car was hijacked from what their weapons are, what theyve got left. Theyre probably very hungry because they have been moving through a forest on foot. And so theyre running out of sorts. And i think the french will take advantage of it. Its a big building. It can be infiltrated. There are a lot of things going on and theyre not thinking correctly. So some of the analysts have pointed out they made this mistake, they made that mistake. They arent thinking correctly. They have been on the run for three days now so they have been not been sleeping. Theyre at the very end. And the news this morning, general, is the fact that theyre in that printing facility because they had been in that forest area. Then they carjacked a car and they were i. D. d and then there was a shootout. They wound up there. But they were driving back to paris. They wanted to go back to paris. They had a plan go back to paris. Im not sure they did steve. But i do think they wanted to go to a nogo zone and get in a nogo zone. Im surprised they didnt immediately go to a nogo zone. What is a nogo zone . What does that mean . Thats where the muslims live and they are sharia law and the police do not go in them. A neighborhood of paris . A neighborhood of paris. Is this a nogo zone right here or is this not a nogo zone . I do not know that, elisabeth. It is a good question. I do not think it is. They had to get refuge as soon as they can because the police were hot on their tail and they just took advantage of it. It could have been that it was planned but i dont think so. One more question, in terms of planning, can you rule out the fact that this printing facility where they are taking hold right
now and hostage was not in the plan at all, that they didnt have any sort of supply waiting for them there . Cannot rule that out elisabeth. The people that are working there, that got away, they have told the french this. So the french had the latest up to date intelligence on what kind of weapons theyve got, what kind of condition they were, what theyre carrying. So i think that theyve got a much better situation awareness than were trying to give you examples of but we dont have that essay as we call it, that situational awareness. They do. General, thank you for joining us. Stay close. We want to bring in our next guest, dr. Ahmed, the author of in the land of invisible women and a muslim scholar. Doctor, we hope the culmination of the threeday manhunt with the two terrorists, they seem to be somewhat in control. They have a hostage right now. Is time on our side or is the message getting
stronger the longer they last . Really i think that we are very behind the ball game with our war against islamism. Its time for the United States, western democracies, britain france to admit that we are under siege by an ideology called islamism. Why is that important to say . It is all important. All islamists are muslim im a muslim to tell you that. This ideology is emerging from muslim hijacking our beliefs. They seek to sell secular democracy. The scene in Charlie Hebdo looks like the scene in peshewar. The war is on education, freedom of speech. Were enabling these kind of actions by not naming them. Would the hostage we believe is a woman, what is your inkling there in terms of what this means for these radicals . Shes in lethal danger. I wouldnt call them radicals. I had call them muslim islamists. They are absolutely hellbent on committing as much destruction as they can. Motivated by . Islamism and their distorted interpretation of the koran. Whats the danger the not using direct language . Heres the danger to all of us whatever our beliefs are, if we dont name it we are enabling islamism. That enabling is happening not just in dialogue but right here in new york city where we have a powerful role in the united nations. We have seen passages, criminalizeation of something called defamation of islam or islam phobia. That is a modern construct from 1970s iran. There are multiple resolutions where criticizing something to do with islam is criticized. Charlie hebdo occurred on that pretext. If we dont talk about it as democrats with British American muslimnonmuslim this is becoming more powerful. You know why here in this country though, because it is politically correct. Let me tell you thats killing us. Youre correct. Go into pakistan been to the northwest frontier with the pakistani military, met with muslims who are deradicalizing jihadists we do not mince our words in the muslim world. We do not have a debate about what is a jihadist, whether hes muslim or not. We are confronting this. Pakistan has lost more militants in this than any other muslim nation. Our president tip toes around it, doesnt want to say it. In the past with fort hood which was radical islam, you know with major hasan, he had a crazy view of islam. He took the koran and contorted it to fit his needs. Our administration referred to that as workplace
violence, which was crazy and thats a whole other thing. Our president needs to say this is a form of radical islam and it must be stopped. He was slow to do it in this case. I would agree with what youre saying though i have the highest regard for the president and the president s office. By avoiding this issue i can only imagine it may be fear or ignorance or a fawms sensitivity that were going a false sensitivity that were going to offend muslims. So many muslims have talked to me and said we need to have a dialogue. Ill give awe theory. We want to make it clear we dont want to make a war with muslims around the world and if we say muslims theyll get the wrong impression. I understand that. I think thats a false fear. Were 1. 26 billion muslims and many of us are not privileged like me. Many of us are suffering at the hands of islamist democracies or socalled democracies or islamist dictatorship. Just i think yesterday or the day before i watched
general c. C. s speech to the university in cairo, the leading Islamic University talking about the need to change this ideology and confront it. There is an expression in farsi. We have reared the vipir in our bosom. It is a vipir biting muslims and nonmuslims alike. We have to strangle it. Which goes back to centuries, the 18th century and taking of our ships and the war against christianity. What i cant help thinking in the last couple of days but also i felt the same with peshewar and the same with sydney where i was days before the attack is where is the churchill of our time . Churchill did not mince his words when confronting the darkest ideology that we know in living memory and we need that kind of speech and power coming from not just western leaders but also Muslim Leaders. We need that desperately. And many muslims, i would say millions would join in this sentiment. To the imams who are leading the muslim faith its up to you to change it. Yes. The clerics and the muslim public. I would say it is possible because there is so much will behind this and so many innocent and powerless muslims suffering. If we think about whats happened, i remember 1989 satanic verses then we have 2004 submission movie. Then we have 2011 danish cartoons. And yesterday we have Charlie Hebdo. So we can see that the contraction on freedom is global and this is being very much powered by the very aggressive islam phobia. Islamists thrive if we dont talk about them. Islamists also thrive if were too careful to trade
because of islam phobia. Too many people died. I want to salute you for raising this issue. After Charlie Hebdo you realized you are in the cross hairs of islamists. The bravest thing people can do at the moment is have networks and stations and dialogue like this. This is a very brave thing youre all doing. Were doing it too and we hope other people follow the same path because it should be. All this stuff should be covered from the New York Times to the l. A. Times to all the other broadcast networks. People need to call it what it is. Dr. Qanta ahmed, thank you for joining us in the studio. 12 minutes before 1 00 in france. Youre looking live at a printing facility where the two bad guys who murdered all those people at Charlie Hebdo on wednesday in paris are believed to be holed up. There is a shootout and they have one hostage at this point. Gary burnsen, a former c. I. A. Officer, joining us once again. Gary, we talked about this briefly and wed like to have you explain it for our audience again. These guys have been inhe police. They have made it very clear they want to die marytrs. But at the same time the police and the technical guys are messing around with the technology in the building. Explain that. Clearly the gign and their commander who is controlling all of this wants to make sure those terrorists are not able to communicate with the outside world and not reporters who might rescue them or people who would assist them in doing other attacks. They dont want them communicating with people that might be able to take their voice and broadcast it out to the world in a final message in all of this. Theyre trying to isolate them. Then once theyve isolated them theyre going to attempt to communicate with them and theyll have that on scene commander will have a negotiating team. Clearly the french have plenty of arabic speakers
so they will be doing it in their native tongue whether french or arabic. They will communicate with them in an attempt to draw this out because time is usually, in traditional hostage against the chechens. Youve seen it with the french themselves when they did the french aircraft in 1994. You had other guests on, like general biken this morning that says he doesnt think this will end well. I agree with him. This is likely to end violently, but that is what that onscene commander is doing. Let me say this, the french are a country that understands this threat. They do. Theyve allowed, unfortunately, large numbers of no go zones and a proliferation of jihaddism. But those Police Officers on the ground understand french policy. They understand that the french are committed to fighting these guys now and theyll use lethal force against them now. This is in the hands of that onscene commander. But the french will wait. They will only use lethal force if they see an attempt to kill the hostage at the moment, or an armed breakout. Other than that, theyre going to try to negotiate. If they think its unlikely they can succeed in killing both those guys simultaneously theyll try draw it out with a negotiation and again, youll only see the actual pulling on the triggers if you know that theyre going to kill a hostage inside or attempt an armed breakout. How concerned do we need to be of copycat instances . You have isis want to go take credit for these two holding up with hostage in that printing facility. What should we be looking for in terms of security outside of this ring across the world . Without a doubt thats a great point. If i was the french, id be worried about simultaneous attacks right now in the
country, because while theyre busy with so many forces at one locations, jihaddists will believe they can attack other locations. Of course the country will be up. Everyone will be looking for potential attacks. But you look all this chaos and this horror thats been created by three individuals onscene with firearms. What happens if you got 25 or 100 people doing that simultaneously . We are at war with these people. Lets look at these two individuals and theyve been holed up now since what time locally . A couple hours. A couple hours. Theyve been holed up for two hours, on the run for three days. We know they have a selfpreservation streak and suicidal streak. We saw the selfpreservation streak with a myriad of ways to get u. But then they have an opportunity to possibly continue this. Instead they carjack, they dont kill the driver and they drive back into paris. And now theyre holed up with a hostage to make this last longer. Do you sense, if youre assessing your enemy, are they
arguing with each other . Do they have a mixed plan here . Are they getting lucky to the fact that theyre still alive . How do you assess the enemy right now . Clearly if they had an infiltration plan, it broke down. If they had another team going to exfiltrate them, they would have greater chance of success of not being chance. It looked like they were doing the ex fil on their own of the theyre probably tired, cold exhausted. Theyre making mistakes. And the tactical initiatives with the Security Forces at this time. But the outcome of this is in the hands of the terrorists. Yeah. How limited will they be based on what you know, what we know so far about what republicry they have supplies, et cetera . What are their limits . We dont know whether or not like in mumbai some years ago the terrorists were taking drugs. They were taking amphetamines to
keep themselves up. We dont know if thee guys are doing that. They could extend the normal time period. But if theyre together and brothers, they could be spelling each other on sleep right now. One of the brothers was known as a pot head who delivered pizza. If youre smoking pot, youre probably open to other drugs. Who knows . A lot of these guys have taken steroids and amphetamine. Right. They could be up and running for a while. But again, its contained. The initiatives with the police. But the resolution is in the hands of those two killers. Sure. And lets hope that they can save that hostage. Gary, stand by for just a second. French radio is broadcasting an interview with a salesman who works inside that building. He says, when i arrived my client came out with an armed man who said he was from the police. This is the terrorist. My client told me to leave, so i left. He id tide the man he was about
to meet as michelle. Quote, i was in the front of the door. I shook this guys hand. I shook the hand of one of the terrorists. He said the blackclad man who was wearing a bullet proof vest and carried what looked like a rifle told me, quote leave. We dont kill civilians anyhow. That really struck me, so i decided to call the police. I guess it was one of the terrorists. And then he closed the door behind him. He told the Radio Station he did not recognize the man. So thats curious. Maybe the people, the five people in the printing facility when the bad guys broke in were actually posing as police, the people didnt escape. They actually leased them. The terrorists around the world are taught to pose as Security Forces because it buys them a few seconds. Most people dont want to argue with the authorities. They want to be cooperative until they know for a fact that
its not the police. So you have terrorists setting up checkpoints knocking on doors, people pose as police all the time of the its part of the training that they get. Its very effective because in open democratic society, we want to cooperate with the security force. This goes to sort of training and the tactics that these individuals use. But theyre tired. Theyre make mistakes. This is going to come to an end shortly. We saw what happened in australia where that one militant extremist, after the a while the cops on the outside, adjacent to the tv station, they just stormed in and people did lose their lives, including the terrorist. I dont know about that tactic and how you approve and how that might apply here. But is there a danger if youre one of these officers or if youre the Security Forces or the cops of losing your patience well, i dont think its so much losing their patience. Theyre going to make an evaluation on the safety of the hostage of the theyre going to do Everything Possible to save the hostage of the in that air
france case in 1994, they recognized tactical penetration of that aircraft, all four had moved up to the front of the aircraft. That commander stood there toe to toe with these guys and exchanged gun fire. They were shot four to six times. The national hero. The guy is unbelievable. They killed all four of those terrorists and saved the entire plane load of people. These french counterterrorism folks, these g. I. G. N. Guys are brave and they are going to do whatever they can to save those hostages. That particular hostage there. What is the mindset were so glad you mentioned that about those officials standing by ready to rescue that hostage there. Whats the mindset . What do these terrorists want . They have a hostage. They can negotiate. Is there end game to get as much advertising as possible and then blow up . Exactly right. Thats exactly what theyre doing. They want, they know theyre not
getting out. They want to create as large a platform for their specific mission, for their cause as possible here. And its part of the Information Operations warfare plan of our enemy. They are in a global fight against us. We got to recognize this. We have to get our leaders to recognize it. Were at war with these people. Stop this insane narrative that theyre just some random terrorists. These are islamic terrorists who declared war on the United States and the western world and they are attempting to establish a global government. Gary. Theyre also killing other muslims that dont adhere to it. Just ask some of the people in iraq. Gary, what does it tell you that these guys last night when we went to bed, these guys were out in the forest somewhere. But this morning when they got stopped at the road block and there was a shootout, they were heading back to paris. Why would that be . They would have been heading back for what they thought was potential support. They probably were looking for a no great zone or they had other colleagues that could have assisted them. Thats all i could think of right now. One would have thought that they would have had an exfil where they would have had a separate team assisting them. They didnt. But ill say this, even though it was just three of them, they are tied you said three, interesting. Isis and alqaeda. Are you counting the 18yearold . Because the 18yearold that kid is not linked to this. Yesterday there was still debate on whether there was a third person or not. Okay. I was just going on the fact that i had heard an earlier news story talk about the third individual. But even if its just these brothers, you have to understand that these guys are ideal logically, thee logically committed to the cause and the cause is familying to get individuals to pop up in all
places in the west to wage war on us as part of their tactic. Gary, stay close with your c. I. A. Background, youre invaluable to this ongoing coverage right here on fox friends. Thank you. Fox news alert. Continuing coverage on a live standoff in paris. Two brothers suspected of carrying out that mass cher are surround by police. Its a Police Operation to neutralize the two brothers. This was launched about three hours ago. Hospitals in the area have been mobilized. The president of france was on our channel about an hour ago calling on france to unify. All the roads in this area around this particular small town have been blocked. The schools are on lockdown. One of the kids talked to a french newspaper, said we are all here. We are all scared. There was an earlier report that somebody was killed in a shoot scout with police. That turned out to not be true. It all started after a hijacking, a carjacking. These guys took a womans vehicle and carted it off heading into a road block. The police started shooting and thats how we wound up where we are right now. Interesting that new link to the murder of the Police Officer yesterday. At count there were five to seven helicopters actually hovering over this actual Printing Company. Now we see officers here on bikes, seem to be on the move as we are seeing now with a live look at this area about seven miles from the airport there. Were going to go now to greg
palkot ho is live in paris with the latest to the minute. Greg thanks for being with us. Reporter elisabeth steve, brian, weve been watching this develop over the last couple of hours. I would describe the position now, a tense standoff inside those presumably heavily armed gunmen, the suspects, the prime suspects in the brutal shooting on wednesday of 12 people killed, 11 people injured. Whats happening right now, according to the very latest report is negotiations are ongoing. There is contact being made between those two individuals inside and police. There is late word that there is some request coming from the authorities to the suspects, the hostage takers, that students at schools nearby be allowed to leave. We do not know whether the answer is yes but we do know that again the schools
nearby and there is one a block away are shut down, as well as other businesses nearby. One hostage is inside. There had been reports that its a woman. No confirmation of that. Another implicating aspect that we have heard about in the last half hour is that in this same building there is a report of other employees that. Is theyre not under the gun of the two main suspects, but they are in another part of the building. They cant leave because the exits are blocked and because theyre fearful that if they leave, they will get shot. But theyre not necessarily hostages, per se, but they are a implicating factor. Police presence massive. Over the past couple hours weve seen everything pour in there, from Police Special force, antiterror, military, weve even seen some very heavy armor unconfirmed on the highways right around there. So the feeling is from the authorities theyre not going to let this go away. That is they are going to resolve it one way or another. But as your analysts have been saying for the past couple of hours, the implicating factor is that individual again, there have been 12 people shot and killed already in this situation, the result of the main suspects involved. They dont want a 13th. A quick backtrack on how we got here. Just today, remember last night they were in the woods, they were in the forest. They had ditched one car that they hijacked from paris and now theyre on the run. They hijacked yet another car this morning drove it towards paris either to stage another act perhaps or to find another safe haven in the tough housing projects that surround paris. They broke through a police barrier. There was a shootout there. And then they came to this industrial state. Thats where we have come to right now. One side point but maybe a significant point we first reported to you an hour ago that
one of the main outlets tv outlet highs had said there is a connection between the policewoman shooting yesterday and the shooting at the Newspaper Office on wednesday. Were waiting for our own confirmation from the interior ministry. But multiple News Organizations are now backing that up. That is alarming. That means that its not just these two guys. That means its not just the guy yesterday, but maybe others out there. The security issue, a major one for the french authorities right now. Absolutely. Because they did make at least two arrests in the shooting of that Police Officer. Greg palkot, you were talking about how some of the tv outfits in france are reporting that. Also france, too, right now is reporting the single hostage inside that building that theyve got is not a female. Its actually a 26yearold male, theyre saying. But greg back up for just a moment. As we look at the exterior of this printing business, youre
telling us there are a number of other people in there but they are somehow separated from the bad guys . Reporter yeah. We have to get further confirmation on that steve. But thats one responsible report that that is whats going on there. Thats whats making negotiations complicated. As you have reported as we have heard, according to a member of the parliament here speaking to Police Sources is where everybody is getting it from, this one person the two main suspects, the gunmen, the terrorists, whatever you want to call them, they have said that they want to die as martyrs out of this thing. We dont have that confirmed but that doesnt sound surprising considering their modus thats the authorities word. Its reported also, eric holder, u. S. Attorney general will be travel to go paris this weekend. He was set to have an International Meeting to talk
about terror on sunday. Has that meeting been rescheduled at all or moved up based on todays events . Reporter i think the timing is quite correct on that one. From our understanding, thats ongoing. Eric holder will be meeting with the interior minister here, a other heads of justice and Crime Fighting in various countries to deal with this exact matter, extremism and extreme militancy. By the way, that happens on the same day that a mammoth rally, demonstration its expected a Million People will show up because there is the other side of the story as were on the trail of this crime story, the outpouring of emotion which continues here over the killing of the individuals involved with that newspaper. Because after three days, we finally could be looking at the end of a manhunt, which really began at 4 00 a. M. Local time
eastern time here and about 10 00 oclock your time. Its still ongoing. Were still getting more and more facts. I just cannot believe out of all that entire area, as we see the overhead shot, that is the only compound complex in the region and he seems to have found it. They have indeed. Greg palkot, stand by. Gather more facts. There is more. So in addition to the Charlie Hebdo massacre on wednesday, and we were just talk being this with the tidbits coming out there was that Police Officer who was gunned down in the street automatic fire yesterday. Now the suggestion is that all fingers are pointing that it is connected to the kouachi brothers. The man connected to that is a known associate of the younger of the two brothers. There has been speculation he was part of the network. Its not been confirmed. Apparently two members of the gunmens family have been arrested. So its according to the people involved in this investigation, it looks like there is a connection. Theyre all involved. Somehow youre going to go into those muslim communities to find out who else theyre linked to. Seven people were picked up and we also wonder when that 19 18yearold turned himself in, thought to be the third person, turns out he was at school at the time, could not have been, what information he provided. Still with us is Lieutenant General boykin, been involved in hostage operations dating back to the 1980s with the iranians. We thank you for being with us. Were looking at some movement here. We have live shots. Seems to be officials placing themselves strategically. Whats your assessment in terms of whats going on at the
moment . I think the police, as well as the Paramilitary Organization gign are moving into a position to be able to react if there is a serious threat to the hostage, or if something were to occur that would lead them to believe the hostage was in danger. What will normally happen in a situation like this is they will have a deliberate assault plan but that takes a little more time and a little more intelligence. Then they will have an emergency assault plan. So if something occurs that leaves them to previous the hostage is in danger, theyll execute the emergency versus the deliberate assault plan. I suspect theyre setting up for both of those right now. Weve seen rescue attempts at night, by surprise. There is no surprise. This is in broad daylight. How much more challenging is this mission to leave with the hostage alive . Yeah. Nighttime would be much better and that is because the police and the paramilitary unit, their gign, control the night. They have the technology, the night vision goggles and the infrared systems. So theyd much rather operate at night because they have a clear advantage over the perpetrators or the hostage takers here. Also the fact is they could cut the lights. Well, they could cut the lights, but you dont know what kind of flashlights or other Lighting Systems that the hostage takers have. Yes. Absolutely. Because according to the reports, theyre still in the Tactical Gear that they were wearing on wednesday. Theyre still carrying the rifles. I know youve been involved in hostage negotiation before dating back to the iranian hostage crisis. Whats interesting is, according to french radio, there is a guy who actually was in that
printing facility and talked briefly to one of the kouachi brothers and shook his hand, but thought he was a Police Officer cause thats how he identified himself. But then he said essentially you better leave. We dont kill civilians, which is interesting. Apparently they did not regard the people at Charlie Hebdo as civilians because they killed them. What does that say what they would do with this single 26yearold man theyve got as a hostage . Well, first of all, there are a lot of things confuse being this. So they obviously considered the people there at the magazine to be combatants because they had created material they found objectionable for putting the prophet in a cartoon, which is not acceptable in islam. But we dont kill civilians or noncombatants. Well, their definition of noncombatants is bizarre. Listen, we have to understand, first of all these people and the others in their network have killed more muslims than they have combatants military people. So what do they really mean . They have a history of killing other muslims but they justify it by saying these people are all martyrs. Theyre going directly to heaven. And all of these infidels that are killed and targeted, they will go directly to hell because they are infidels and never bowed their knee to allah. I really appreciated what your previous guest this had to say the lady that talked about how weve got to come to grips with what these people are driven and motivated by. And i totally agree with that. And our president , when he stands up and lays out a strategy for dealing with isis and starts with the second sentence by saying, islam or isis is not islam, you have to wonder, does he not know the truth or is he just being
deceptive, him and awful his mouthpieces that say exactly the same thing . Weve got to get beyond this and start dealing with this realistically. Look at the ancient philosopher who says know yourself and know your enemy and you need not fear 100 battles. But the opposite is absolutely the antithesis of that is if you dont know your enemy, you better fear every battle. You also know, too that you have to have a strategy. Can somebody tell me the strategy to defeat radical islam . No. I cant tell you what the strategy is. By the way, it goes all the way back to the bush administration. Its not just the obama administration. Ill tell what you their strategy was to bring democracy and give these people a voice in government and perhaps they were not ready for it as we saw with the uprising. Look, democracy and sharia cannot coexist. There is no such thing as democracy in a sharia environment. Whats going to happen brian i just released a novel that really lays out what i predict is going to happen in the future. The people around the world are gonna come to grips with the fact that their governments are not protecting them. You see it right now. You see the nonsense, you see the outright lies about who the enemy is and what motivates the enemy. And whats going to happen is theyre going to pull their re pool their resources and theyre going to form, i believe in the next decade theyre going to form private organizations that are going to start taking on these terrorist networks because governments wont do it. The black waters of the world. Thats exactly right. Joan boykin stand by. Jonathan gilliam, former f. B. I. Special operator joins us live here in the studio. As youve been watching, right now the koachi brothers have one 26yearold male, an employee of
this plant. Apparently they have six or seven full time Staff Members there. Theyve got him hostage. They say we dont kill host civilians, but at the same time they say, we want to die as martyrs. Right. Okay. You put those together, what do you have . You have another tool at thats did he say posal. Now they have a hostage. So they dont want to kill hostages. But if things arent going to their advantage where they want to amp up the terror which is what theyre doing, theyre trying to create terror to push it out into the community and trying to get this broadcast and theyre doing a good job of getting this broadcast all over, they now a hostage and they can use that tool. If they want to be very violent, they can end up ending that individuals life. We dont know if they rearmed in the interim when we didnt know where they were. So they could have rearmed. But you wonder, after three days being on the lamb wearing the same stuff with the body armor are they running out of gas . Are they running out of bullets . You know, its interesting because theyre kind of following a similar pattern as
the boston bombers where they ended up gog a gas station and trying to get gas. This may actually be a standardized plan as far as escape and evade that they go through. That gets spread out across the region cause you got to remember, whether its isis, alqaeda, alqaeda in yemen, alqaeda in iraq theyre pretty much all associated when it comes to war planning. They use each others tactics. So i would have to say based on their training and expertise that ive seen them use theyre probably not out of ammo and theyre probably they went into a convenience store, got another car. So they probably have enough fuel for now. I think they have gotten to a position where they cant move forward anymore and theyre now holed up in this location. When you look at right now the entire ground there has become a makeshift helicopter pad for air force helicopters landing there, it looks like a war zone schools are on lockdown, neighboring towns on
high alert. This is two terrorists right here and the capacity to bring in tens of thousands of security 930,000. 90,000 in charge of hunting them down. What does this mean for others out there . We know theyre out there. We know theyre lurking and wanting to run a copycat attack while the attention is on the two beasts inside that building. I think you all have hit one of my major pet peeves with the way this is done. Boston bombing was a perfect example. It was two guys and they literally threw everything that we had even the federal government added at one point had there been something in houston or down in new york at the same time, across the country in l. A. , there would have been a breakdown in the way that we continue to work these operations because even boston bombing started to exhaust the men and women that were there. We were on camera almost the whole time for those days. Exactly. Both times involving brothers. Thats true. See, you have to look at the communities in which they grow
up. Its much easier if you have an inspired family to go out and train together. I was saying the other day that i was almost 100 sure you were going to see training of these individuals where they had deployed somewhere just simply because of the way they were moving. As it turns out they never served, but they did go to a terror Training Camp in yemen. What does that tell you about the level of expertise . How skilled is the youngest of the two brothers, said . What youre look for when we go through seal training youre look for people that you can train and trust and that wont quit. And here in this case, they travel, theyve shown they have a commitment to travel to yemen to be trained. Theyve obviously learned what they were teaching them. Theyre committed to the fight. They may not be the most elite fighters in the world but they have definitely listened to the training and followed it to the letter and i think thats very
important now. What you brought up to me on radio and on the show is that, look, lets look at the underwear bomber. Incompetent, could have been worse. The times square bomber, kind of a negligible guy. The subway bomber. The one off with the tax attack. Immediately officials like to marginalize the attacker. Dont worry about it. We dont need anybody to define what we saw what weather it came to what happened in paris three days ago. Or australia. But see, now youre bringing a second problem that i have with the way these things normally carry out. First of all, we have massive amounts of forces that go there and concentrate on this one incident, not realizing there may be other people in this. We cant predict the future. The other problem is when they try when the officials try to downplay it, like they did in boston and they downplay it and say, everything is okay. We got the two guys how do you know . And how are you preparing the civilian population to get ready to protect themselves if they think oh, its all over with
now, we can go out in the streets and have a party . The thing is, if youre a public official, you have that tough thing. How real do we get with the people . We dont want to create panic. Well leave it to the seal team guys, our counterterrorism experts. But for the mr. And mrs. Jones, how crazy do we get them and paranoid is the potential there . You all have kids. I dont have kids, but i have dogs. But you slowly build up that image in their mind that they have to be willing to protect themselves. You cant just wait until people get into a situation like happened in australia where they dont know how to react. Absolutely. Thank you very much. Stand by. Michael headed up the bin laden unit and he joins us live on the phone right now. Michael, were receiving word that apparently one of the koachi brothers, one of the shooters said the attack on the magazine was revenge for alawlaki. What does that mean to you . I think what you three is probably confirmation of their training in yemen as one of your producers said, we know one of them was trained there certainly. But probably the cost of the training was during the event to identify the attack is retaliation for alawlaki being killed. Its a nice propaganda move. Its a nice adornment. But basically the attack was revenge against the caricatures against the prophet, which is much more important in the muslim world. Theyre using it as a twofer . Exactly. Its a very smart thing to have done. Absolutely. What do you mean smart . Well, from their perspective alqaeda and the arab peninsula now has reached out and exacted revenge for the killing of anwar alawlaki. Which they can use for propaganda and recruiting . Its a beautiful operation so far. All right. What do you make of the fact
that while we have heard that the eldest of the two brothers trained at that terror camp in yemen, michael, aligned with alqaeda, now this morning according to reuters isis is taking credit for it. It could be both. Isis is an outgrowth of what started as alqaeda. The goal of these people and its very hard for them cause theyre very proud and very arrogant. But the goal is unity. So if this turns out to be a twofer as someone just said, if it is a cooperative operation or at least a friendly operation between alqaeda and isil, thats more bad news for us. Yeah, no kidding. For them to combine . Right. Right. Do we know that they have ever combined on an operation . I think we probably have
occasion when is its happened in Northern Iraq and syria, at least complimentary actions. But im not sure i know of one overseas. Do you think one of our problems is were afraid to kill them, were afraid to identify them . I think thats absolutely the case brian. I started trying to take them down one at a time in 1995. By 1997 we told clinton that the agency cant do it. Youll is to use a lot of military force before this is over. And thats just been ignored ever since. The only way to win a war is to kill the enemy until he stops want to go fight you. That includes killing his supporters and infrastructure and yet we continue to play this cops and robbers game. Theyre going to get these two guys. 88,000 against two even the french cant lose that kind of odds. But at the end of the day its an enormous victory for the islamists. In the face of whats been going on sort of decreased in terms of real respect when it comes to those in intelligence, those in Law Enforcement here in
the United States, when you see what this administration has been really sticking their hands into there and disarping those set to protect us, when were releasing prisoners from gitmo left and right. If these two terrorists are to get out of here alive, chances are theyre going to be just thrown to the side eventually. Maybe theyll do some time, but were creating a system as it seems and ill let you evaluate that really is not helpful in terms of stopping this. No, maam. This is a situation where you can clearly look back006 when president obama blinded the Intelligence Community by stopping the capture and rendition of people in their interrogation. 2009, you mean . 2009, im sorry, yes sir. And he blinded the hes very good at getting off of one horse and not having another one to get on to. And hes blinded the Intelligence Community and as a result, we have not only a lack of intelligence, but a shattering of the Fourth Amendment because theyre so desperate to try to get
information by listening on the activities of all americans. Its a disaster sir. Michael sawyer headed up the bin laden unit at the c. I. A. There are also reports this morning, we did report that yesterday a Police Officer in the streets of paris was gunned down automatic gun fire. Some guy clad in black. Initially the reports were there were no connections to the kouachi brothers. However, apparently the connection has been gone. Hes a known associate of sharif. So youve got the shooting at the magazine, the newspaper, which apparently being claimed revenge for alawlaki also because of the cartoon. Now youve got this connection to this other shooting. Do you think its bigger . Is there more to this web . I think there is probably more to the web and more of these webs out there. Weve been whistling the multi cultural tune for so long, especially in europe and france, that weve invited people into our countries, or allowed them to come in who will never assimilate and will always be muslimss first or some other kind of identity first. France is rife with them. France is among the most racist countries on earth and all of their muslims are drawn in to ghettos that even the police dont like to go into. So theyre a hot bed for this kind of thing. The other thing police dont want to get into and they dont want the police there. They want their own rules. They want to live their own lives. They dont want to be french. Look whats happening in germany. In germany theyre twinkling of an eyeing their leadership defying their leadership and labeled by their own leadership as antiimmigration because theyre saying, i dont like the element coming into my country. Its making germany unsafe. Thats the key of multi culturism. Its the key to divide americans or europeans against each other. We have in this country, we have
Little Islands of muslims and Little Islands of blacks and Little Islands of hispanics who really dont want to assimilate and you have americans who increasingly resent those people and its a source of great internal friction, but its an indictment over all when you look at the big picture, its an indictment of the complete ruin that multi culturism has brought on to western society. Its also how we i dont want to get too philosophical here because we have an ongoing hostage situation because it could come to a close at any second. But the goal is you keep your heritage, but identify with your country. I think a lot especially happening in europe, theyre going to these countries, but they dont want to be british. They dont want to be french and they dont want to be german. Thats right. But also i think you have to consider the rottenness of our Education System when they dont teach civics. People dont learn things by accidents, they learn them by schooling. When we were kids, we learned about what you owe to america is
as much about what america owed you. And thats not taught anymore. So we have a lot of americans who think america is just one other country. That is true. I think we could definitely reinforce that. But whether it comes to this, youre one of the first people, and thats why your book is so valuable, almost a handbook, to identify the islamic threat and as i mentioned earlier, things changed in america after 911. Everybody, wherever you go, you know bin laden, we know who it is. For france, this is their moment. For them to look the other way thats not going to be possible. Are you at all optimistic that this could be a wickup call for western europe and the United States . No, brian. cause you heard it already. Hollande thundered out thats going to bring these guys to justice and obama did and i havent heard what cameron said but i bet its the same thing. They dont care about police action. If we capture these two guys in france or kill these two guys, the population because we believe in law and order is going to think its part of solving of the problem and its
not. Were in an event were in a situation in an environment where it would be tantamount to trying to kill them one at a time. Thank you very much. Now we turn to our security correspondent, Catherine Herridge, who also joins us. Weve been talking about how about there is a report that isis is claiming credit for the attack in paris. Do you think there is anything to that or are they just beating their chest . Reporter good morning. As of late yesterday the u. S. Intelligence community had no credible claim of responsibility. But im working at this hour to see if theyre assigning any credibility to this particular claim. What we do know about the oldest suspect, said kouachi, is he did travel to yemen in 2011 and he made direct contact with one of
the alqaeda Training Camps, the alqaeda affiliate in yemen is known as alqaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, or aqap, and considered by intelligence officials as the most lethal and the most capable of attacking targets outside of the middle east and europe and also the United States, just to sort of refresh for your viewers this is the group that was behind the plot in 2009 to bring down the jet over detroit with that underwear bomb. Yeah. So i guess the big question is if this said kouachi did train in yemen and if he has connections to alqaeda, did alqaeda green light the operation in paris . Reporter an excellent observation. We reported on Fox News Channel yesterday information about a
series of tweets that were released shortly after the paris massacre and it was released a twitter account that has known associations with aqap and it used images of the shooting and super imposed on top were images of the past American Leadership of alqaeda in yemen, this guy from north carolina, who is responsible for this propaganda magazine inspire, which i know youve been reporting on your show calls for the execution of the cartoonist in march of 2013, as well as anwar alawlaki. Are you suggesting that the fact that the twitter feed came out so quickly after the attack on the newspaper they may have known about it and just had those things ready . Reporter my contact suggested to me that the tweets seem to have some foreknowledge of the operation, like it was
prepped and ready to go as part of a package. Go ahead. When you layer in the shooters said they were seeking revenge for alawlakis death does this all just piece together . Well, you guys are doing a great job which is pulling together a lot of dots and trying to connect them to reach some degree of confidence as to who was responsible. But at this stage id be very cautious about assigning responsibility. But its clear that both brothers had direct ties to alqaeda affiliates. The older brother to yemen and the Second Brother to alqaeda in iraq and while weve been on the phone, there is a new report from reuters we have not confirmed it independently but it says the older brother met with the american cleric on war alawlaki in 2011, when he went to yemen. Remember he was the first
american targeted for death who we reported on ex tensesively here at Fox News Channel. He was killed in 2011. So there are a lot of dots that are pointing to aqap. As youre well aware there is almost sort of an olympicstyle competition now between these alqaeda groups for supremacy. You have aq in pakistan. You have the group in yemen, which has very strong ties to the group in pakistan. And then you have what they would see as the upstarts, which is isis in iraq. A few things come to mind. If the al locky story is correct, how we got him was a major kill. He was more dangerous than bin laden. One of the people that turned him over was believe it or not i dont know if hes norwegian or swede, but he was able to get
inside and almost deliver him. I imagine if anybody had eyes on one of these brothers, if they were in yemen that would be in yemen, but the decision was made not to do that but to tore get him for death with a drone. Thats really a side issue. But if it is true the reuters report and i dont want to get into too much speculation but if there was a meeting with alqaeda in yemen senior leadership, this is an extremely
significant development. A former intelligence official pointed out to me yesterday that the two French Brothers seemed like actors in a play, that they were hand selected for this operation because they were dedicated, they were french nationals, and they would blend seamlessly into the fabric of that country. That is true. And they know the area. I know you got to work your sources, so you have to run. Please come back to us if anything happens over the next shower a half. We appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you. So this morning we are able to the news outlets in france are reporting in addition to the murder at Charlie Hebdo apparently there is also a connection to the Police Officer who was gunned down by automatic gun fire in the streets of paris yesterday. Within the last five minutes apparently an armed man has taken a hostage at a kosher
grocery in eastern paris. Reports are that one person was wounded in a shootout at the shop. It is thought that it is the gunman who shot dead a policewoman. It looks like theyre trying to tighten the noose on that. Thats a strong connection to the two terrorists that are holding up in this building. The word is they are connected and he was the one the early reports are that shot the female cop yesterday. So in case you think to yourself, well we get these two guys and at least this crisis is over, not according to what were just learning. Lets bring in governor mike huckabee. Governor, youve been watching this. The islamic threat and the war on terror, hardly new to you. What is different today about these other incidents that we are witnessing of late . One of the things that comes to mind is that we have continued to try to avoid calling this islamic terror. We try to say oh, this really isnt tied to the religion. Well, it is tied to the
religion. And whether its president obama, eric holder dhs secretary johnson weve got to wake up and smell the coffee. If you cant smell coffee in a starbucks, you cant smell it. And at some point were going to have to recognize that this is not a criminal action; this is a terrorist war against all people who love Freedom Freedom of speech. What were seeing in paris could well be seen in American Cities and in fact it has been. Fort hood. And im wondering when eric holder goes to paris this weekend, is he going to try to convince them that what happened at Charlie Hebdo was actually Workplace Violence incident and not an act of terror . Thats what americans will have to come to grips with. The french minister called this meeting in response to the attacks at Charlie Hebdo. Its going to address all of the events, including todays. Were hoping this hostage makes it out alive. Our prayers are with that persons family and all those that have been lost. What do you think about eric holders meeting in general and the position of this administration particularly president obamas stance . Well, its disappointing to think hes going to go and try to represent the position of the United States. Let me explain why. The reason that president obama and eric holder continued to say, lets not associate this with islam is because they say we dont want to create attacks on american muslims. Nobody does. Nobody wants that. And guess what . It isnt happening. Of the 1223 religious hate crimes reported by the f. B. I. In 2013 only 13. 7 were directed toward muslims. 60 of the religious hate crimes were directed toward jews. We dont have a problem in the United States of going out and beating up muslims because were mad at islam. That is just not happening. And so its a kanard. They about the fact that you have these gunmen holed up and
there has been a threeday manhunt, most of it caught on tape. Now we have the still shots of what happened inside. Now we know these two brothers are there. There might have been a third person on their operation. Now their affiliates and friends are murdering others, if these reports are true. Think about the terror thats spreading with a handful of guys throughout a country with such history as france. The real tragedy is that while the horror of the 12 people being murdered and the potential of the hostage being killed is absolutely horrible, lets not forget that the real ultimate goal of these terrorists is not to kill a handful of people they need to kill enough people so as to change the behavior of freedomloving people. And theyre already doing that. If they cause networks to not put the cartoon on air for fear, if they cause people to not go to coffee shops, if they cause people to lock their doors and to act differently, they win. We need to learn something from
the israelis who the day after an attack on a cafe will go back to that cafe. The day after a bombing on a bus will get back on the buses. Why . Because they know that terrorism is not about killing a hostage. Its about changing behavior of people who are free. Were a free people. We need to act like it. When we change our behavior, they win we lose. We need to say theyre going to lose and we need to take it to them. This is not going to be an appeasement. This is going to be an allout war. Its kill or be killed and we need to plan on winning. Governor huckabee joining us to talk about whats going on outside of paris. Thank you very much. Meanwhile, in the last ten minutes, the connection has been drawn between a hostage situation at a Kosher Grocery in eastern paris with the shooting of that Police Officer yesterday. Greg palkot joins us now. How are they connecting those two events. Reporter steve, this is quite a morning here in paris. This developing literally in the last 40 minutes what, is being reported and what were looking into is a hostage taking, as you noted, at a jewish grocery. The gunman is believed to be the gunman to be the same person who shot and killed the policewoman yesterday on the outskirts of paris. This has been going on for about, as we say, about 40 minutes. We believe one person being held hostage were not sure of the number in this grocery. We know there has been an exchange of fire. We know that there has been an injury. We know that there is a big presence of French Police at that location. Again, lets backtrack and talk about yesterday. It was just a Traffic Accident that a policewoman was dealing
with at 10 30 in the morning on thursday and then out of the blue, out of nowhere comes a heavily armed man with camo gear and everything quite serious. Came up and killed the police woman and fled. Now shear where it gets a little complicated, but here is where it gets alarming. As weve been reporting for you for the past hour or so, there is new confirmation coming from multiple sources that this person who allegedly is holding a hostage right now in a grocery shop who shot the policewoman yesterday, is linked to the two named suspects involved in the killing on wednesday of 12 people at that Newspaper Office that he is part their network as one french media report assesses. And there is even speculation that he could be doing this today, that is taking a hostage here in support or in
alliance with whats going on right now outside of paris. And whats going on right nods outside of paris is, according to french authorities, the two main suspects in the shooting death of 12 people here on wednesday are holding at least one person hostage . In a small Industrial Park outside of paris. Right now its a tense standoff. At least 1500 police, special forces antiterror, even military even with some heavy armored coming into the picture ready to move in if inn and when they can. Right now theyre in negotiations and according to reports, the negotiations indicate that these folks want to die before they give up. Back to you. Greg, youve been in so many Different Countries in the middle of the egyptian problem and every time there is an attack, youre there. How would you characterize frances ability to handle two potential terrorist situations at the same time . Reporter frankly, brian, i have lived here, i lived in france for eight years, so i really know closely how these guys can operate and they can. Theyre very serious. Even when there is a demonstration or protest which has a chance of acting up you see some people come out here. They look like they could fight a war. So i do have faith in the french authorities ability to teal with this. But frankly over the past couple days, even they have given the indication theyve been a little flat footed by this emergence of a dangerous islamic threat here, the fact that these two individuals on wednesday could have done what they did in that Newspaper Office completely under the police radar. Its just one of many questions that i know will come up in the next days or weeks. But right now theyve got a big mess on their hands happening in a couple locations, it appears brian. Indeed. Greg palkot, stand by there in paris. Joining us now is the man who
stared down the face of radical islam, former u. S. Navy seal, rob oneill, the man who killed Osama Bin Laden. Rob, as you look at the situation in that french countryside where these guys, they said we want to be martyrs, what do you think . Thanks for having me. What i think right now is that theyre inside. They too want to be martyred. Theyre obviously serious people. This means that the negotiations probably arent going to go well. The Hostage Rescue Team needs to get on top of it. They have the initiative. The place is surrounded. Its pretty secure. They need to find the entry points hopefully get some blueprints, cut the power, and i would recommend getting a team to go in quietly, get a foot foothold. Having anticipated where they would, as the hostage takers the best place to hole up and work their way there. Once inside, you need to do if theyre not actively
surrendering, you need to do what we would call eliminate the threat. So within the rules of engagement, if you can get a direct shot, because theyve already murdered people, you need to take it. So rob, we are so thankful youre with us this morning with this expertise. Now were hearing that a second hostage has been taken. The person there responsible seems to be linked to the two Terrorists Holding a person hostage in the printing facility, which were look at now. We have two hostage situations on the heels of the massacre at Charlie Hebdo just a couple days ago. Now were in a situation where these resources are going to be split. How do you foresee this being handled . It shouldnt take too many. They could split them up. There might be there is a large presence now in the initial spot where the hostages are being taken. They can take some people away from there. Im sure not everyone thats available is there. They need to send more of the elite people to the deli and deal with that the same way. Again, these are people that
are they want to be marts. They did their part in the jihad and they want to go to heaven and in order to do that, they need to die. When you hear that the word is theyre seek revenge for alawlakis death what does that say to you . Theyre going to say a loft things. I personally dont think there is a big difference between isis and them. Anyone that can use this propaganda, the media coverage, to say we did this because of that, theyre going to say it. Right. Rob, you had a chance to assess what we saw video and eyewitnesses, of their ability after they killed 12 and wounded 11 three days ago. When you saw the precision in which they shot, how savvy they seemed to us civilians with their firearms, how would you assess the enemy right now . What is their skill level . Well, the way that i would assess them is i hear people say highly trained. I dont agree with that. They did have a plan and they know how the gun works. But the way they were shooting the way they were yelling, they were both running at the same
time. They had adrenaline but didnt seem afraid. I dont think they have much experience. And they were a bit clumsy. And when they got away in the get away car the guy left his i. D. In the car. So to say mastermind to me is kind of theyre not that well trained, but they are very serious. So as serious as they are with the weaponry that weve been able to assume that they have just based on this video, how long can they last in this situation . Its hard to say because theyve made stops, theyve stolen fuel and food. Theyre going to be tired right now. Theyve been on the run for a while. Based on what they believe, like i said, theyre serious. They can last a long time. And i think that its going to last until someone shoots them. I dont think theyre going to shoot themselves. If they were going to kill themselves, you need to be wary of a body bomb, suicide vest. Thats one way to martyr yourself. But i dont think they have them they might. You want to assume they do. But i think its going to end with them being shot by special forces. Are they acting like
alqaeda . Yes. This is what theyre doing. They like the big spotlight. Theyre gunning down innocent people. Thats what alqaeda does. We have received reports from the french media that apparently there are snipers there. So youre saying much like i saw the special. I know you were on the somali pirate operation as well. They just need a shot. Yes. Its one of those things where its actual will he better to take them alive just to find out who is teaching them the stuff how they got radicalized. But you also need to stay within your rules of engagement. They are a threat. If theyre not actively surrendering and there is a threat, which there is a hostage inside and there is a shot, it needs to be taken. And the French Special forces are while it is not a military operation, this is a Police Operation, theyre good at it, arent they . Im sure they are. Everyone in special forces that are there, the cops that are there, the swat teams they all train on this. Weve trained together, all of
our ally partners, weve exchanged tactics. They can do it. So youre impressed with the french and theyre special forces . Yes. Ive been impressed with most of our allies. Rob oneill, the man who killed Osama Bin Laden joining us today from north carolina. Rob, thank you very much. Thank you. Right now rejoining us is Lieutenant General tom mcinerny to sises the scene. You always talked about the massive threat and the potential and always expressed the worry that we werent identifying our enemy and understood the fight were up against. The french are getting it and now they have two separate possibly two separate hostage situations simultaneously. Whats your assessment now . Well, first of all i think i would like this to be a Tipping Point in which the world realizes that we have got to put the responsibility of the Muslim Leaders and the muslim people themselves to defeat radical islam. We should call it. Weve got two cases certainly one that is a radical
were tired of holding our breath waiting for people in the Muslim Community to turn over the extremists in the Muslim Community. 2015 give up on that. Youre exactly right. Dont give up on it though. General al sissy, the president of egypt, came out with a profound statement to the muslim world several days ago at a prominent muslim university. So look, were not going to defeat them. We can. But the point is, it will be too long. Only if they take the responsibility and the world puts the burden and im not going to say this event is going to make them do that. We certainly did not have an administration that understands it or is going to take the leadership role when the president wont even call them islamic terrorists or radical islamists. So we have a major problem in the United States. But the American People and the people of the world have got to rise up and say enough is enough. You fix it. So i think thats why its very
important. Theyve got two events. They can handle them easily, as rob pointed out. Were not worried about that. They will handle it. Youre right. General, there are two events. If youre just joining us right now, what youre looking at right there is a small town about ten or 15 miles away from paris. That is a town where the koauchi brothers have holed themselves up in a printing facility. Theyre holding one man there, its believed to be a 26yearold man. Simultaneously in a neighborhood of paris at a kosher deli, a gunman with a rifle in assault gear who is believed to have killed a cop on the streets of paris yesterday is holding five hostages including women and children. Thats the very latest out of france. One person has been injured thus far in that Grocery Store hostage situation. This as 80,000 have been involved in hunting down the two original terrorists from Charlie Hebdos massacre. Right. And general, i got to say this, and i think youre way ahead of me on this but obviously if this person is linked to these brothers, which initial reports show they are everybody who has been with these brothers has to be immediately picked up and scooped up or else the french people could be looking at multiple hostage situations, correct . Absolutely. Theyve got to go to the mosque where they went. This evil ideology is fomented in the mosques. This Political Correctness is killing us, brian. We have got to stand up and say what it is radical islam is an evil ideology as evil as naziism, fascism and treated as such. Howard dean says its a cult. He doesnt know what hes talking about. Weve seen a reduction in terms of surveillance in mosques here in new york city. Do you believe that across the globe, particularly in the United States as were look on whats happening here with a double hostage situation on the heels of a massive massacre in paris, should we be back into mosque with surveillance based on this . Absolutely, elisabeth. And what its going to do is weve lost that intelligence, as michael shore pointed out. Weve been blinded since 09 because we havent been doing these things. We havent been doing rendition in that. So were losing sight. One of the prominent fox anchors last night said we are losing and she is right. And we are losing. We havent lost and we can easily defeat this enemy but weve got to identify it. Know thy enemy. And it is radical islam. There is no doubt about it. Big difference between just muslim religion were talk
about radical islam. Tell us when given what is going on right now in france and given that isis has claimed responsibility, although thats thin, we do know that one of these guys actually trained at an alqaeda terror camp in yemen. What is the u. S. Military complex doing right now . Well, theyre probably just watching. They may be providing our intel sources may be providing intel. But we dont have the intel right now on scene because only the french have got it and theyve got very good intel. But were probably providing them more intelligence, drawing out a plan of all right what, are we going to do on this . How are we going to handle isis . I dont want to put more u. S. Ground forces into iraq and syria. We need the muslims to defeat isis. We can use air power and our intelligence. The jordanians have offered and others have offered and we have not yet got back to them. Were training nine guys in
saudi arabia. Meanwhile, look at this, steve, to your question. The pentagon today is seeking a 20 cut in u. S. War funding down to 51 billion from 64 billion, which by the way, wasnt enough. So thats the message. Were cutting back as the threat heats up. Brian, we are unilaterally disarming the american military. We have a very serious problem here, let alone whats going on in the ukraine and china and north korea. We have a very serious problem. Its a good thing nothing is going on in the world general. Sure is, steve. We are bombing isis, but we have no idea if theyre doing anything because we have no people and no resources on the ground. But still the inability to call terror what it is remember, Osama Bin Laden is dead. Gm is alive. If you believe that, ive got a bridge in brooklyn i want to sell you. I just know gm is alive. Ill tell you that. Were actually near brooklyn. Weve got a bridge. All right. General, any other observations as we wrap up this hours coverage of whats going on in france right now . Youve done a superb job and your viewers and the American People have got to wake up to the radical islamic threat what it is, and demand the president talk about it and identify it and not walk away the problem and call it extremism and Something Else, it is radical islam, mr. President. Say it 100 times a day. But its not just our president. Look at hollande over in france. I mean. I agree. And europe as well. Largely they lean to the left and have gotten away from the antiterror and instead more, i dont know appeasement. Look, Steve Emmerson said last night on hannity that he thought europe was lost and europe may be lost. When you have these no go zones,
71 in france youve got them in sweden, in england youve got them all over. Until the european leadership stands up and identifies and makes the Muslim Community notochordry who was on with sean last night saying the things hes saying hold them accountable. This is not going to be easy stuff. Im not saying it is. Its tough stuff. But we better be tough about it or were in deep trouble. Believe me, thanks for putting it into perspective. We are now and thank you so much. We got on early and weve been bringing you this coverage because there has been, we thought, a dead end to the manhunt thats been ongoing for three days that kept the killers from wednesdays massacre at that newspaper and now we understand we are looking at two separate shooting and hostage situations. One with the brothers is one person and as many as five in the other. A close eye on this situation. We will continue to bring you details as they unfold. Massacre at Charlie Hebdo three days ago followed now bay double hostage situation outside of paris. The good news is, weve got them surrounded. The big question is, what happens next . Its 2 00 oclock in france. We have a fox news alert for you. Continuing live coverage now on fox friends of two standoffs happening right now just outside of paris, france, where two islamic extremists, brothers suspected of carrying out this weeks bloody massacre in a Newspaper Office are now surrounded by police there. This while another hostage situation has unfolded just outside of a telly. Thats right deli. The kouachi brothers are holed up in a printing facility after a shootout with the police. They left the woods last night and they were headed to paris. Meanwhile, the second standoff is at a kosher deli in the city of paris where five people are
being held hostage right now including women and children. There have been shots fired. There is a report of injuries as well. Those are some pictures screen right, of what is happening. As you can see right there apparently the gunman came into the deli with a kalishnakov. Theyre saying it was an a. K. 47. This shooter here with his deli hostage situation theyre now connecting this person this terrorist here with the shooting of the Police Officer, the female Police Officer yesterday and now wondering what connection he may have to the brothers that are held up right now in that printing facility holding one 26yearold hostage. In the shooting on wednesday one of the brothers said to a bystander, tell everybody this is alqaeda in gemmen. When you think of alqaeda in yemen, you think of a
alawlaki, american born radical, when he was alive in 2011 before we took him out, he was considered, as of if not more dangerous and more lethal than Osama Bin Laden. And i understand that these brothers have relayed a message that the shooting is revenge for his death. Right. One of the cars they carjacked, they actually told the woman in the car, this is in revenge for the drone killing of alawlaki. You are look at live pictures screen right, as now the whole screen, that is the kosher deli in paris where apparently there are reports that five hostages are being held there at that Grocery Store. There are reports, five in all some women and children. Reports are that the gunman armed with two kalishnakovs. Greg palkot has been doing a great job trying to piece it together. In the last hour, this has all
changed. We thought the brothers were holed up in the printing plant. We thought that the shooting of the cop yesterday was unrelated. Now as it turns out as we look at some french television, its all related. Reporter its all coming together, steve, brian, elisabeth much i covered a loft terror stories in my time, but this is a new one on me. Weve got dueling hostage situations right now. Lets deal with the break hostage situation. In the past hour, you called it a kosher deli. Thats about right. Its a small Grocery Store. Its on the east side of paris. A man with two according to reports ak 47 the automatic rifles stormed into the place and took five hostages. Again, according to reports. They include men, women, and children. There was some shooting. There are reports of at least one injury and the police are all over that place. There is a swat people that has encircled that location. What makes this interesting is we just got this report my producer told me that the report is this individual in inside this kosher deli has admitted that he is the man who was behind yesterdays shooting of a policewoman here. Again, yesterday a Traffic Accident turned moo a fatal incident into a fatal incident when a man just walked up to a policewoman attending to that Traffic Accident and shot her dead. Now, it gets a little bit more complicated because right now as i said, we have got dueling hostage situations 25 miles outside of paris, the two main suspects in the terrorist attack on wednesday of that french Newspaper Office, which left 12 people dead, are holding their own hostage at a Small Business there at an Industrial Park. This has been going on. Weve been telling our fox viewers about this for the past four or five hours, since about
9 00 a. M. French time. Right now weve got several thousand police, soldiers, swat teams, even Armored Vehicles. Frankly ive seen unverified pictures of tanks. The police will there dont know what to expect. Negotiations are ongoing. The people inside there, one of the main suspects, which have been identified as being responsible for this most likely, saying they want to die. They want to be martyrs for their cause. One last bit for this complicated jigsaw puzzle just in the past two hours. We have found, we have heard verifiable reports of linkage between the man that shot the policewoman, the man who was holding the hostages here in paris and those two other main suspects from that other terrorist situation. What we have heard is that police have found the dna of the two main suspects in wednesdays
terror shooting in the apartment of the suspect involved in the policewomans shooting. We dont know more than that. Once i finish with you were going to dig into that background as well. But the Worst Nightmare for french authorities right now is happening. Looks like militant islamic terrorism hitting at them from all sides, as we speak. Islamic terrorism on the rampage and this is the fear and im wondering, we have two. Could it be three . Putting it in perspective, former navy seal, Jonathan Gilliam rejoins us here. We were trying to get a make on how we get these two brothers out of there and that hostage alive. What do you make of what greg just told bus a second hostage scene with five others there and this other guy has been also a shooter for at least 24 hours . And the dna is the new link between this new hostage taker and the one that is currently the two currently holding the 26yearold in the printing facility. I think what were looking at is a problem thats getting bigger in that having a moving situation is bad enough as it
is. But now you actually have multiple situations with basically the same team of people, but in multiple locations. Now youre going to have to split your forces up and coordinate two forces. Sure. If you dont have a good overwatch of your people, good coordinated planning, thats going to start to spin out of control. You need a central command. You need a central command. But these things should have been thought out beforehand. What im hoping is it doesnt end up like it did when this started, where you have unarmed police at one of the biggest threat locations that they have there because of the on bikes who had to leave because they had no guns. So they were able to literally go in and kill exactly who they wanted before they left. It does sound as if they wound up at this particular printing facility because it was nearby after a shootout with the cops and a road block as well. But jonathan, if you are a terrorist, this is a jackpot for you. Its huge. The people of paris and of
france have got to be terrified right now. What is happening . We had 911 happen and you had big spectacular attack with planes crashing into buildings. And that instilled fear for a period of time. But to me and to a lot of the experts, weve been saying for years and years, this is the real type of attack that will cause longterm effects because now when you go to work, when you go get coffee in australia, is anybody ever going to feel good about getting coffee. Or chocolate. Its a kosher restaurant, to your point across paris, are closing. And smart. Thats what they should be doing. Children heard chanting out of the windows charlie, charlie. Certainly the people there keeping faith that these individuals can leave alive. There has been one reported injury in the kosher deli. Where do we go from here . The last time you sat with us right here we started early in the morning, there was one hostage situation. Its now moved to two. In the face of these two immediate situations, the
prevention of a third im sure has to be a priority. The prevention of a third and also you have to pull back. You have to say, we have multiple things going and multiple events. So we have to pull some of the forces back. There is no reason to have 90,000 guys or however many right at the scene of the you pull them back. You stage them. You let them eat and get some coffee in them and prepare for the next mission if it happens. They always talk about america, we have too many guns. I dont know how many virals have ak 47s full body armor and camouflage. What army are they building in these muslim communities . Does anyone know what else is in there . Well, all you have to do is look at syria and youll see, and yemen thats yemen and syria. This is france. That is what theyre bringing, is what im saying. There is places in france where police dont even go because they have sharia law there and
theyre very dangerous neighborhoods. Who knows that theyre doing in there . Im telling you, if theyre going to yemen, theyre coming back with the same mindset and training and training other people to be like that. We know at least 1,000 french citizens, holders of passports there, have gone to yemen and gone elsewhere and trained with isis and alqaeda and everybody else. So the surveillance wise, the french have got their hands full. But in addition to the terrorization of the entire country of france right now, and people watching around the world as well, all this video is a jackpot as well for the jihadis because this new generation of jihadi recruitment, essentially be like these guys. When i was training to be a seal, i used to watch all these seal videos, read these seal books. Its no different from somebody who is raised up in a community who believed that jihad is the wave of the future and they get
enfired by these things. Ill tell you what, is very, very important here is that we start to realize we always put so much security into when we think we have a known threat. But if you look at probability versus possibility, the possibility of this happening in france was 100 . The probability, which is a numbers game it may have been higher here or higher there, but its happened. So i always go off of possibility. The new york city the possibility is 100 . So you have to be alert all the time. And they are, or we were. Were look at a split screen. Two dueling hostage situations in france, one in a pointing facility by the two brothers who terrorists who took the lives of 12 responsible for that in paris three days ago and another that just has been unfolding. We see someone crossing the street there at a kosher deli where men, women and children are being held. Where do we go from here . The 18yearold who turned
himself in, theyre still trying to get some sort of relation, supposedly the brotherinlaw of the koauchi brothers. You have him in question where do you go with him . Hopefully they dont have the same miranda problem like we do here. There is no Death Penalty there. And ive heard somebody say yesterday, there is no life in prison there either. Well, there could be a Death Penalty today if these cops do their job right. We rarely use our Death Penalty anyway. Youre the expert, but if i have two hostage situations, i have to find a way to wall off that community or that area where they came from to make sure we dont end up with 12, 14, 16 operations. You have to get on the offensive and thats to go where they live. Correct . Right. You have to have a blocking force. Thats where just like in airports how we put all our security where you take your shoes off and we dont concentrate on anything else and people are able to jump over a fence and get to the tarmac, you have to have an outside force that is looking and watching and then a Response Force thats ready to go over there. If you just throw everybody here, its not going to be good. True. Right. Jonathan gilliam we thank you. Colonel cowan joins us right now. Longtime friend of this program. Lieutenant colonel, what do you think . Well, the first situation with the two guys in the big warehouse, thats fairly manageable right now. Thats a good situation for the French Security people, as long as the hostage or hostages arent threatened, they can maybe get some clerics in to talk to these guys a little bit maybe some family maybe some friends. The french authorities could watch that situation up until the point that the hostage or hostages are actually threatened, at which point the french have to do something. I think the second situation with this one guy its going to take some time for that to play out and with him randomly killing a policewoman, not a target, but randomly killing someone, they need to worry quite a bit about his mental state and what he may or may not be willing to do to the hostages that hes holding right now. Im sure theyre scrambling more
attention and effort on that right now than on the first two. I always heard we had three guys, one turned them selfs in and that narrative changed when the kid was in school it couldnt have been him. He came in and i dont know what police are doing with him. Maybe this is the third guy. Maybe he was the driver. We know theyre linked. But maybe he was actually in on the original operation. Maybe, brian. Thats going to have to be played out too. I think as you all have got me following rob oneill and Jonathan Gilliam. You put a lot of pressure on me to say things that are astute here. I would say its pretty darn possible that theyll be some other incidents happen. Thrall be some copycats people that may not be related. Ill give you some right in your wheel house. In the 80s, you were wearing the face paint taking out these terrorists. You identified the threat in lebanon and beyond. What are we witnessing now that reminds you of then . Well, once again, these are surprise actions. At least in this case brian,
French Security French Police, french intelligence, theyre on top of the kind of threats that we face. When things were first happening in beirut and the middle east, we had nowhere close to the kind of intelligence or attention or levels of detail or Response Forces and i was part of some of those guys that went out. We didnt have the Seal Team Sixes that we have now and we had delta force, but a lot of these guys werent deployed. Its a different environment now. But at the end of the day the threats are still the same. Theyre still as extreme now as they were then. They want to strike out at americans and thats the common thread. The good news is weve gotten more adept at responding to them. The way theyre responding to them in paris is theyve shut down the metro stations. Theyve also locked down all the schools. The images on screen right you can see them little faces of the school kids who are inside. One of the school kids texted out a message, we are all in
here. We are all scared. Geraldo rivera joins us on friday, he joins us right now. What do you make of dueling hostage situations, one at a printing faith with the two koau why, kouachi brothers and another at a Kosher Grocery store in paris where a guy with a kalishnakov holed up with five hostages. I was driving down new york yesterday and passed the Jewish Museum and then several synagogues on fifth avenue all had heavy police presence. The fact that this is a Kosher Grocery store is not random. I believe that now the jihaddists have targeted these jewish consumers. I think they bring in this whole other horrifying aspect to this war of cultures and civilizations. I believe that now the people, the forces who are closing in on
these terrorists must use maximum force possible as soon as possible. These are not traditional criminals who are in a hostage situation where you can talk them down and exhaust them. Remember australia. I believe that these people are committed to murder and mayhem. They want jihad. They want to die a death for allah. I think we should make their wish come true. I think that the hostages, particularly in the dosher grocery Kosher Grocery store are in peril, even those children. To your point, kosher delis and restaurants have been closed. Weve seen metro stations closed. We have seen the faces of those children in the schools on lockdown. Earlier they were chanting charlie, charlie, out of the window. Police now are seen Walking Around with unholsterred pistols, just to give you an idea of the status of high alert in the cities of paris right
now. I think a when you have the several hostages there the way they do, i really believe snipers lets bring the snipers in. I believe that theyre there. Nothing good. I believe they are. I believe that nothing good will come of prolonging this. This is the Grocery Store scene. This is the Newest Development in the hostage situation. This is where the kosher deli is. This is where the hostages are being held. So obviously its a little bit more frenetic there as opposed to the countryside where the brothers are thought to be holed up. The fact that this apparently concerns the three perpetrators of the massacre as Charles Hebdo yesterday gives some comfort this is not an uprising of muslim extremists per say in paris or france. You dont think so . This, i believe is a cell i believe there is a connection youre a husband imextremists. They are definitely the three muslim extremists. I dont believe that the conspiracy is it not appearing
to beyond these three. There is a theory they were hand picked, some aring if with, because of the connection of one brother to alqaeda, one brother to yemen. It could very well be. I believe that the difference between alqaeda and yemen and isis is the difference between my left eye and my right eye. I dont believe that there is a significant difference. I believe that they are all muslim extremists committed to the most vile and violent kind of incarnation of this jihad. One of the problems today if youre just joining us, there have been so many new details that weve learned today. Apparently when these kouachi brothers carjacked one of the cars they told the woman that this was to avenge the drone killing of alawlaki. The american. Go back to wednesday the survivors at the newspaper said they made it very clear this was
to avenge the prophet mohammed, who the paper had spoofed. I think that there is a good possibility, steve that these perpetrators are evolving the reason and justification for their hideous deeds as this progresses. When you see how unformed their escape plan was yesterday they knew they wanted to commit murder. They wanted maximum impact. They didnt have an escape plan particularly. It doesnt seem as if they had outside help. It seemed the three of them scattered after the events president elect obama because of a cop appearing on the corner, lets go left, lets go right, depending on the situation in a she spontaneous way. I think they have them cornered now. They cant negotiate. The only reason to prolong these negotiations is to get your Tactical Team in place so you can take them out. This situation has been building. So we go back three days. We had a newspaper turned into a slaughter house, followed by two simultaneous hostage situations
that were looking at live. Now weve school on lockdown because all schools are for safety there. Weve got a situation here that has been building. Bow due not think, hey maybe we should up surveillance in mosques . Maybe we should keep an eye on whats going on pause weve really cut back here in new york. Regardless of their political philosophy or ideology, i think there is no doubt it is extremely disappointing how little mainstream muslim thought in this country has been condemning this conduct. Ill tell you i got to bring to you Something Else. You know this is weird, mi 5 came out and said look out for new attacks in the west and iconic targets. They said speaking to this hostage situation, they think a group of core alqaeda terrorist are planning mass casualties against the west and they have not had a Public Statement like that has mi 5 since 2013 in october. So its been a while. For them to come out and say that, i think thats pretty significant. Think of it this way, brian. Here you have these three operators who have committed this murder and mayhem and so disrupted life in france and in europe even if they were selfstarting spontaneous combustion, you must necessarily conclude that there are many others like them who will seize the same catalyst and perpetrate the same kind of horror on innocent people. Why . Because innocent people are easy targets. Absolutely. Soft targets are always much easier. If youre just joining us, it is 2 22 in the afternoon in france. Screen left is the not far from the hostage situation at a Kosher Grocery store. Screen right, youve got some of the images about 20 miles outside of paris where the kouachi brothers are holed up. Just within the last five minutes, french media starting to identify the man believed to be the gunman in the Kosher Grocery store as an associate of the kouachi brothers. Amadi see. Lea gabriel has more on whats being done tactically. Let me start with saying we just learned and im not sure if you said it, but weve learned two are dead at that Grocery Store at this time. That is new information. Im just getting that information as were sitting here. But i just spoke with a current member of the u. S. Counterterrorism team. That specializes in hostage rescue. This is somebody who does this. When we look at the french Paramilitary Forces that are involved, he it is me they kind of have a combination of what you would find in our Seal Team Six operators like rob oneill and also members of our Hostage Rescue Team from the f. B. I. That are all working on this right now. He said something very interesting. He said that the time actually can be helpful that the negotiator negotiating with any captor would kind of have two roles. One of would be to negotiate the other is to buy time. That time is for the operators to organize and also for them to gather intelligence. He said if theyre going to want to find out anything they can about whats going on inside those buildings. For example, where are the
hostages located . Are they separate in any way from the captors . He said that they can use kind of good oldfashioned police tactics, detective work to figure out where they are. Things like if theyre talking on a hard line phone in the building, they can locate where that phone is, or cell phone, they can pinpoint that location. Although we have heard that apparently the authorities are scrambling the phone and the internet as well so they cant get word in or out. The bad guys, although they are communicating with them apparently we dont know how theyre doing it, but the police are talking to them and thats how we know the bad guys say they want to wind up as martyrs. And i just want to say, you mentioned that they say they want to wind up as martyrs. But this person, this source i San Francisco he can with said there is another interesting point here. He said that when you see people make attacks wearing masks, that indicates that they are somehow hoping to survive. Of course. He said when you see a martyr, they want to say their name. They want to say i am martyring myself and they want to do it right then and there. So this, he says, indicates that
there may be some sort of hope to survive. When you look back at france and their history in dealing with terrorists, they have paid ransoms in the past, so there may be some negotiating power there. There may be some room. Thats a possibility, too. They also want to take overt country. Their goal is to win an election and install sharia law in france where they have the greatest Muslim Population and seems to be the most out of control. Here is the other thing that you know very well. Jonathan gilliam brought am. The coordination on the two scenes. Who is going to be in charge . Ho is going to give the go sign . Who is going to coordinate where the cops move and how they move together . Thats whats vitally important. And ho is going to be in position to prevent a third fourth and fifth hostage situation . This is vitally important that there is somebody in large. Time is not on the side of some. Right. Thats a very good point upwrought up because this could all be a ploy to draw cops in, to draw Law Enforcement in to certain locations and to make a huge mess out of martyring
themselves, to make this a really big situation and to martyr themselves in a huge way. So we dont know which way this is going to go. You mentioned the coordination. The source that i spoke with on the u. S. Counterterrorism team said that that coordination is one of the most challenging pieces in this type of situation. When we heard reports of 80,000 Law Enforcement officers all moving around, all trying to coordinate, he said the most difficult thing is figuring out who is in charge, who is who is the zoo and figuring out who will take charge. We do understand that at the location outside much paris, 20 miles outside of paris, they have about 1500 officers involved. We also understand that it is a Police Operation, not being operated by the military at this point. Of course, france has excellent Paramilitary Forces that of course are going to be involved. Where those forces are allocated at this point, we dont know. But as i said before we know that one of their paramilitary units has forces similar to both our Hostage Rescue Teams and seal team 6. How did the hostage rescue goal actually change tactically
now we know two have been dead. We heard there were up to five held hostage in this deli, women and children included. Two now dead. How do things change tactically in that moment . My source tells me that changes things quite a bit. cause now you know little bit more on what their intent is. If it seems their intent is to somehow negotiate a solution they might keep those hostages. Once people start tying that does change the equation. You know what . Obviously these guys i dont think they really have a plan per say. Theyre trapped, for instance the kouachi brothers at the printing facility outside of paris, said we dont kill civilians and then let a couple go. Right. Then youve got this other situation at this Kosher Grocery store where the guy goes in there and starts killing people. Right. In this situation, we have no idea how this is going to go. But this source of mine is basically giving a few other options of basically ways that
theyve been sloppy or ways that theyve indicated that maybe theyre not fully committed. Theyre not as good as we would have thought they were. Right. Could they be persuaded to come out, be captured and perhaps have their day in court peacefully . When you see this situation particularly at the Printing House here where they have one hostage thats 26 years old no reports of any injury or death there, is that a possibility . I think thats everyones question right now. We hope thats a possibility. As were speaking about this, as this has been playing out weve been watching this for so many hours at this point, right now theyre gathering intelligence and theyre trying to figure out every little thing they can about how these buildings which way the doors swing where the windows are. The magic of the internetworks fence us cause these terrorists can get in touch with each other. But we also can go on line and be able to seat sematics of that printing facility, for example. Im sure theyve done that since this started at 4 00 oclock local time. 10 00 oclock local time, 4 00 oclock our time. So theyve had plenty of time to go through and maybe find out where the vulnerabilities are. When you build a printing facility, you dont usually say, whats my maximum security worry . So there is a lot of places to deliver, i imagine. There is a lot of places to access. And i guess once that hostage who we now understand is a male who might be older than we originally thought because it turns out, according to one source, their daughter of the hostage is trying to get ahold of what they say is her father. So it might be a little bit older than we thought. We original low thought it was a female. There is a lot to know. But you also think p a facility that big, there is a lot of places to go. Of course there is. And so as you were saying this is something that they can gather intelligence on. They can try to use sources online to try to figure out how everything is built. But what the source is telling me is that the more time they have, the more time they have to wear down the captors and try to figure out how they can get in and possibly rescue. The point that he made is the longer this goes on, the more exhausted the captors will become and that can also work in
the favor of the Law Enforcement officials. Sure. Because if they make a mistake, they might be able to get a shot. Exactly as rob oneil was saying. Stand by. Its 2 30 right now in the afternoon in france. If youre just getting up, let us recap what has been going on. Last night when we all went to bed, we knew that the kouachi brothers, it was surmised they were in the forest, up in the forest. Then all sorts of things have happened in the ensuing hours. Greg palkot is live in paris with the very latest. Greg, pick up the story. It will lead to this twin hostage situation in various parts of france. But it all started at the forest last night. Then what happened . Reporter thats a good place to start. Well do it very quickly for our viewers to recap. They left the two main suspects in the brutal killing of 12 on wednesday at that french Newspaper Office they left
their car on the edge of the forest. That was wednesday night. They fled into the forest. A big manhunt on thursday throughout that day. Big surfacing of Police Special forces, et cetera. They did not turn up anybody bit end of the day on thursday. But these individuals, the two main suspects, the suspected terrorists hijacked yet another car friday morning and started to move towards paris. Not knowing why. Perhaps to get a safe haven, a hideout, somewhere near there maybe to do another terror act. They burst through a police cordon. There were shots fired and came to an Industrial Park, to a business and are now holding one person hostage inside a Small Business. Surrounding that business is about 1500 Police Swat Team members. We understand military. We understand Armored Vehicles are in the area too. These guys in the small amount of negotiation that has happened between the authorities and the two main suspects inside this building have said they want to go out as martyrs, so theyre being treated very seriously and very carefully. But with that one at least one hostage inside there, thats why we havent seen any kind of storming of the facility. In the words of the earlier on and words of interior ministry official, they want to basically do away with these two individuals, but not with the civilian there. Okay. That is that one scene. It basically holds at that right now. Lets shift into paris itself. Just about two miles from where i am on the east side of the city at about 1 00 oclock paris time thats about 8 00 a. M. Your time, another hostage situation broke out. The man who is lets put it
this way, a man went into the kosher deli, small supermarket with two ak 47 rifles and held those people inside hostage. Five people including men women and children, n. S, theyre called by the french media. There was some shooting. Police are now at that scene as well. Its another standoff. There are new reports that there are two dead. Threw new there are new reports coming from the main news agency here we do not have those confirmed. But there are also reports this man has declared that he is the man who shot the French Policewoman yesterday morning just outside of paris. It was a brutal killing. Just a simple Traffic Accident that the policewoman was attending. This fellow walked up and shot her dead. Where is the linkage . The linkage is this in various reports, Police Authorities are now saying that this man, who is holding five people hostage in
one store here in paris, has been in the same militant islamist cell as the two main suspects in wednesdays shooting who are now holding the hostage outside of paris. They were involved in trying to spring a convicted terrorist from the jail. There were reports that they had been involved as long as ten years trying to funnel jihadis to fight in iraq and syria. The connection is there. The identity of the man is there. His picture is being posted now and he is a known quantity. Now the Worst Nightmare for french authorities. They knew they had a problem with the militancy among their Muslim Population. They knew that this was an issue. Now by all pretenses, it looks like it is happening. It looks like the authorities now are dealing with two different terrorrelated hostage situations. Both which could end badly. Real quick, is there a thought that this could have been the third guy involved in
the newspaper killing on wednesday . Reporter youve been talking about that earlier. I believe that the third guy is the driver is the 18yearold who turned himself in wednesday night, who was related as an inlaw to one of the individuals. What about the new report coming in from French Police about a we now have a photo of the main suspect there in the kosher deli but now a woman these are the two people who are sought in connection with the killing of the Police Officer yesterday. These are their mug shots. Mr. Kumadali is the fellow who is believed to be the guy who has taken the hostages inside the Kosher Grocery store. Police there in france have also confirmed that this is his girlfriend. So there is obviously direct relationship between the two. What more do you know there . Reporter yeah. Its his girlfriend. Apparent accomplice. Apparently she was aware of what was happening. The linkage we first heard between the fellow in the Grocery Store and the two main suspects the fellow out at the Small Business outside of paris, is that the dna of all three were found in the same apartment, that they had been seeing each other. Then they looked in the records further and said, these guys have been doing stuff anding allegedly and convicted of stuff, definitely for the past ten years. So this is the network. Again, as youve been reporting, its a major concern not just homegrown, but maybe directed from abroad acts by muslims here, by activists here who want to do harm. Is the location of hyat known . Is she in the deli as well . Good question. All were hearing about now is
the one man there. There is no mention of an accomplice, a woman in there. So these guys are all part of the same crew, the two brothers, plus the guy and his girlfriend, all connected . Reporter all connected. But it goes farther than that. Im not going to complicate the matter with giving you a bunch of other names. But there are other ring leaders principlely they were interested first in getting a french jihadi fighter over to iraq during 2004, 5, 6 7 8 to fight americans, specifically to fight americans. Triggered by the american presence in iraq. Then it shifted over to bringing that fight back here. Thats exactly what theyve been instructed to do by heads of alqaeda chapters and spokes people from alqaeda chapters in yemen, in northern africa, as well as in iraq and syria. That is what is happening. Whats alarming, guys, and again, this is one of my areas of concentration this looks like textbook stuff. This looks like exactly what we feared that the people would harbor these feelings theyd go into the prisons would develop these feelings, act it out abroad and then bring that terror back home. Again, a lot of alleged. A lot of suspected, et cetera. But its all coming to we and my colleagues, like Catherine Herridge and others have been talking about for a very long time. Playing out right now. Before we recap exactly whats happened for people who are just getting up and understanding that were following two hostage situations, i think we have if you can give us a pulse on whats going on in france. Is there a sense of National Panic . Are people just staying inside, because this news is coming fast and furious. But its happening to them. Reporter its shock, brian. The headlines say it in the newspapers. First it was freedom assassinated after wednesdays brutal attack. Today its betrayal the trail, the hunt. Theyre not staying outside. The traffic is busy, but in talking to people, its finally hit home. They put this, the Charlie Hebdo attack, they put this on the same level as the london transport bombings in 2005. They even put it on the same level as 911. Obviously the numbers are completely different. But the emotional impact not too far different guys. All right. Greg palkot, thank you very much. We should point out as we put up the two mug shots of the two people wanted once again in connection with the cold blooded murder of the cop on the street yesterday and there you can see right there the woman and man, he is the fellow who is believed to be in the Kosher Grocery store right now. The French Police have described them both as armed and
dangerous. If anybody recognizes them, come forward. Dont try to approach them because that would not be good. All right. So were following these two situation. We now have identities and they are dueling. Youre not getting two conflicting stories. You are getting two separate stories. If anyone understands the danger of alqaeda in yemen, if anyone understands what al lack cree was all about, who had everything to do with the fact we were able to take him out with a drone, it is mortgageon storm. He was able to act like a double act for the c. I. A. , get inside this jihaddist movement and help take him out. Joining us now, morton storm. By any chance did you ever put eyes on either one of these brothers . No, unfortunately not, otherwise people wouldnt have been been doing what they did today. You would have taken them out. Yes. Describe what theyve been saying and the training that theyve seen. He said right away when he went in three days ago to massacre those people at that newspaper, tell everyone im alqaeda in
yemen. What does that mean to you . Alqaeda in yemen means the old school, the ones that have been trying for years and years and years to kill us in the west. What these people have received in yemen is obviously schools mainly to receive light ordinance training and also to learn how it make explosives. Yemen is one of the only branches where you can learn to make specialized bombs. Specialized bombs. Thats interesting because were seeing people very familiar with automatic weapons who have a clue how to infiltrate a building, make a plan and get out. Yes. Thats correct. So actually youre receiving both. You receive combat training with ak 47s rpgs and so on of the but here more specifically specialize themselves in making
bombs, as weve seen. Are you suggesting that where they are right now in these two dueling hostage situations, that these terrorists here could indeed be craft ago bomb, or they are . Its a possibility there . Its a possibility they could put booby traps and they could wrap themselves in order to not get caught alive. Sure. The information we received from the police on wednesday was that eyewitnesses say that the koauchi brothers hole erred as they were murdering people that this was to avenge the prophet mohammed for them publishing the pictures of the cartoon that spoofed mohammed. Now there is information that they say it was to they told this to a woman whose car they carjacked that it was to avenge alawlaki. Now, there is also add to this, the fact that on wednesday they said they were from alqaeda in
yemen. But now isis is taking credit for it. You got all these claims of credit going on here. Its probably more likely this is just alqaeda and not isis right . Yes. By the way alqaeda and isis have got the same aims anyway. And obviously they are competing with one another to do the first massive attack in the west. Now for them saying that they are avenging the prophet mohammed pictures and anwar alawlaki, it makes sense its also from yemen. Especially alawlaki. He was someone that he was very high and someone who was dear to them. So it looks like it is aqap yemen. But dont forget that aqap yemen is also hooked up with al nusra. They have the experience of killing innocent people it wouldnt surprise me. You infiltrated alqaeda and survived. I dont know if there is anybody else that can say that. Give us the mindset of hitting the west. How much of an operation like this means to someone who works for alqaeda in yemen or any other middle east country. This is the worst case scenario, what were facing now. For us. What about for them . For them, this is the best case scenario. For them its the opposite. For them, its the best, like winning the world cup in soccer. There is nothing higher for them. Obviously what they want to achieve next time is to kill even more civilians. Now these people have manageed to trigger and the french
trick the french authorities when they come back from receiving this training they have managed to trick the authorities that they no longer a threat to the west. But then once they have their weapons and theyve woken up and its time to kill civilians. We thank you very much for your expertise. Now lets include rob oneill the former u. S. Navy seal, the man ho killed owes. Rob, when you joined us 90 minutes ago, we just had this situation 20 miles outside of paris inside that printing facility where the kouachi Brother High School taken one hostage. Now weve got a new hostage situation in the city of paris, screen left. It is believed that the man whose image is on the right part of the screen is the man who has killed two people inside the deli. If you got people inside the deli a lot of glass, thats a
different operation than if theyre in an Industrial Complex where there are no windows. Yeah. That is a different place and probably easier for a sniper or two to get some shots off there. Whats important now is, because its in a crowded area, is they need to try to disperse people, keep them inside, avoid crowds and keep them calm as they can. And if the guys inside executing people, its time to get a Hostage Rescue Team in there. It doesnt necessarily mean that you start running through the front door as fast as they can, but they need to get a foothold in there and he will the threat. Theyve not five hostages women and children, in with them right now. Two dead. Yeah, there is five in there. And a way that a Hostage Rescue Team operates is to get in there at this time right now with precision shots. Youre going to be taking shots near unknowns and friendlies and you need to be precise. But theyre train to do do it. Were so thankful youre here to give insight. The landscape is quite different
in both of these situation. If indeed this terrorist inside who has already killed two were to get out, that is a crowded street. It has not been cleared yet as of late. There are a lot of targets there that are innocents. So how complex of a mission will this be . I mean, there are different land scales, but the first thing they need to do is secure the perimeter and make sure they cant get out. You need to figure out what the perimeter is in the built up area of the city, get people out of places nearby there and again, keep them away from windows in surrounding buildings once the perimeter is secure, then you need to find hopefully multiple points of entry and get in there from a few different sides. Its important to get in there now. One of the witnesses said that the shooter went in and immediately started shooting. Given that does this sound like someone who you can negotiate with . Absolutely not. Then that would be a mistake. When i was talking earlier, i said its good to get in there quietly and that includes when
you get up to them, you dont want to Say Something like, drop the weapon, or put your hands up. You need to assess if he is surrendering, you take him. If not you take him out. All right. My worry i think a lot of people in france wonder when is the next shoe to drop . We hear the guys are in the woods, they emerge, they come into paris. They try to avoid a road block. He ends up holed up in a print shop. Then you find out hes got a buddy that already shot a cop and hes holed up in a kosher deli. If im in paris im saying whats next . If you are handling security now, rob whats next . I think you hit the nail on the head because one of the things i would be doing now is considering what is next. If these jihadis are inspiring others, theyre going to try to hit the crowds that are surrounding to see whats going on. Thats why its important to keep crowds dispersed, away from tv cameras where they could get it could be shown
everywhere. But at the same time, you want to be careful. You want people to still live their daily lives because you cant let the terrorists win. If you shut things down, theyre winning. Schools on will bedown, kosher delis closing. If youre just look at the pictures, in the upper righthand corner, you have the mug shot of a woman and her boyfriend. He is believed to be the man inside the Kosher Grocery store with the kalshnikov. Then you got images of the police massing near the printing facility as well. These two, these are the mug shots, these were circulated because they are wanted in connection with the murder of the Police Officer on the streets of paris yesterday. Okay. So rob oneill those two have direct connection to the kouachi
brothers. Obviously they have other friends. I would imagine the police are doing their best to round everybody up. Yeah, i would imagine so, too. They need to find out who is saying what, who their friends are, where they hang out whats being preached in the mosque and hopefully get help from some of their religious leaders. Find out who said the wrong thing and they need to be questioning them and find out whats next. I know you got to run. In the big picture, as long as we leave isis intact and these yemenis running wild with all these bases training more and more radicals, if we dont rectify it this soon, this could really be out of control shortly. This is out of control. Were going to need help from our allies in the middle east from the sunni muslims countries, from saudi arabia ue. We need help, egypt. All those people need to get on board and realize that its okay to agree to disagree, but we dont need to be killing each other over cartoons. Rob oneil, the man who killed Osama Bin Laden, thank you very much. Lets go back to the city of lights. Greg pal cool joins us. Ten minutes before 3 00 oclock
in the afternoon. The city of lights is terrorized right now by twin hostage situations. Reporter at this very moment, steve, youre absolutely right. The east side of the city a kosher delicatessen, small supermarket, there is a man inside with two ak 47 rifles. He says hes the man that killed the policewoman yesterday. He says hes the man, reports are, that has some association with the two other main suspects from the wednesday terror shootout, now holding yet another hostage outside of paris. You got two situations going on as speak. Youve got french authorities at both locations, big time, back to here in the city and paris, youve got swat teams surrounding the kosher supermarket. Reports of two deaths, but we dont have that confirmed. We did have confirmed at least one injury. But again swat teams are at the
scene and hostages are inside. Nothing is moving. But very very tense there. Likewise, outside of the city at the Small Business where the two main suspects in the newspaper shooting are holding at least one hostage. The past couple of hours, it settled down a bit. Negotiations ongoing. But they have said theyve made their own declaration that they will die. They will be martyrs before they give up. Again, youve got the individual. Youve got the civilian. Thats an ongoing situation too. And a variety of reports saying that these three people are linked. These three people have been an islamist militant cell here in paris involved with trying to break out a convicted terrorist from jail, involved with funneling jihadis to iraq and to syria. Ten, a lot of suspicions, a lot of reports. But this is how its breaking down now. The authorities here have their
hands full. Wow. Thanks a lot greg. Dont go anywhere. Were going to bring in now the former assistant director of the f. B. I. Bill gavin. Mr. Director, you might have seen mr. Hostage situations. Weve never covered them live on the air. You said it probable low is not going to end right here. Why do you say that . There is too many sequences going on at the same time. Jupiter is aligned with mars in france right now. You have two hostage situations all these people are connected. You have huge communities of islamic jihaddists that are in and around paris. This is just a horrible situation. Connected with yemen as they say. What bothers me is we keep supplying more troops to yemen leaders by emptying the prisons in guantanamo bay. This is a horrible situation. We have to do something about it. Just under an hour ago we sat here and there was one hostage situation. Now we have two. Just to clarify, are you saying
that we could be looking at a third any time soon . I dont think there is any doubt about it. If in fact there has been a plan within this Huge Community to do these kinds of things, you have people who are not afraid to take the lives of innocent victims. You already have two dead in the deli, one Police Officer from yesterday, and then these people are vicious and they need to be stopped. I wonder where the heads of the mosques are coming forward to help resolve these situations to step up and say who the friends are and ha theyve been hearing. Absolutely. Bill, let me ask you this so the situation 20 miles outside of paris it has developed because after they left the forest, the kouachi brothers apparently carjacked a car and were heading back to paris. They were probably going to slip into one of the neighborhoods and try to melt into the general population. But there was a police roadlock. There were shots exchanged. And thats when this all
happened and thats how they got holed up at the printing place. So why on earth would this other fellow weve got his mug shot as well why would he out of nowhere he had been in hiding since he killed a cop and he admitted to that to some people why would he come out of hiding while the other standoff ising if on . Steve, could have been a second coordinated attack with him and the brothers coming back into town to hit two separate places again to continue this vengeance on the innocents. All of these things have to be things that you put into your mind. Could they have been doing a coordinated attack again . Thats a very serious outlook. Yet its all within the possibility and the realm of what these people do. Ho is in charge . If this is america and you have two separate hostage scenes in
the same vicinity, the coordination is key, but who coordinates what . Thats the local jurisdictions and the federal government at the same time if the bureau was involved in say, chicago and boston, then youre going to have two separate command posts with coordination through the center in washington washington d. C but were not going to have the number of people they did the right thing. They put 80,000 people out on the street, both Police Officers and military people. There is not too many places these people can start trouble that theyre not going to get immediate attention from Law Enforcement. Is that the goal, then, to just split divide, distract and really split the are known . Absolutely true. And to cause what they are. They cause terror because theyre terrorists. Thats what happens when do you all these things at the same time. Yeah. Bill, about an hour ago we had Catherine Herridge, our security correspondent, on. She was talking about how one of
the brothers had training at an alqaeda camp in yemen. And now apparently this mr. Kubali has some connection to terror Training Camps as well. The question is given the fact that one of them is alleging that theyre doing this to avenge the droning of alawlaki the question is whether or not alqaeda in yemen actually green lighted the operation to kill those people at the magazine. I would suspect that probably yemen is the alqaeda the alqaeda is like the clearinghouse. People aring if to do individual things, maybe approve, maybe not approved. But alqaeda and yemen is probably well aware of what is being done and future projects. Thats the thing that concerns me the most. We have to squeeze information out of these people. Its going to be difficult because theyre not afraid to die and theyre not afraid to kill. Theyve said they want to die martyrs and today could be that day that that happens. Bill gavin former f. B. I. , thank you very much. Lets review where we are right now. At 4 00 oclock eastern time, thats our local time 10 00 oclock french time, we got word that the two suspects in the shooting death of 12, the assassination, the terrorist attack on wednesday were holed up in a printing building and they were there. The standoff was continuing and thats what we were covering. We understand that there was a hostage and there is a hostage. First we thought it was a female. Now we understand it is a male being held in this place. If you see the overhead shot, its a huge printing facility. That was ongoing. Then everything began to grow. Youve got the kouachi brothers at the printing facility 20 miles outside of paris. And the reason they wound up there is they stole a car after they left the forest and they were heading back to paris. There was a standoff with police, shots were exchanged. Nobody was hurt. Right now one man, it is believed, is being held hostage. Then it was revealed within the last hour that the people who you can see lower screen right, they have been named in the murder of the Police Officer on the streets of paris yesterday. They are boyfriend and girlfriend. He, the key is, he has a connection to the kubali brothers and that is the picture, screen lower left, of the standoff outside the deli there in paris. Five supposedly held hostage there. Two are ted. The gunman has two ak 47s there. Apparently according to witness, came in and just started shooting immediately. Theyre calling it a bonnie and clyde operation. But to be honest its not bonnie and clyde. This is terror. This is islamic extremist terror. They know each other. Theyre accomplishing their goal. They got the worlds attention. Certainly had our attention. Thank you very much for joining us. Were going to turn it over to bill hemmer and martha mccallum. Youre watching the Fox News Channel. Were into a 48hour nightmare. Two dangerous hostage situations unfolding at the moment. Two terror suspects said to be surrounded by French Police saying they want to die as martyrs after murdering 12 people two days ago. That is northeast of paris. Now breaking news on another standoff with terrorists on the south and eastern side of the city. Good morning, everybody, breaking News Coverage here on the Fox News Channel continues here in americas newsroom and welcome to friday and welcome to day three. Im bill hemmer. Morning, martha. Martha good morning bill. Good morning, im martha maccallum. We have to be clear two separate active ongoing hostage situations. One in
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