case ukraine, and the members of nato. it's not up to anybody else. certainly not up to the united states to say. so even if we wanted to, which we don't, we couldn't commit nato not to accept ukraine. ukraine has an open door. nato has said the door is open for you at some point you can be a member. >> you're an expert in diplomacy. what do you think about the two calls this month? is it enough? you have two zoom calls. should there be more engagement? should countries be more involved? lastly. >> absolutely. absolutely. that is one of the other big principles. we, the united states, are not going to negotiate with the russians about ukrainian security or european security without them being at the table. so this cannot be just a u.s.-russia discussion. on january 10 and 12 january,