of july 19th, they hadn't even engage with rudy giuliani yet. i don't believe that happened until a little bit later. so you believe that by july 19th they were already engaged in those types of activities can back >> we had already had a discussion with kurt volker, it was his assistant who indicated he had met with rudy giuliani at this point. in the vestry sondland made comments about meeting with giuliani. and as we know, in the may 23rd meeting, they have been instructed to meet with giuliani. they give us every impression that they were meeting with rudy giuliani at this point, and rudy giuliani said on the television, and has said subsequently, he was closely correlating with the state department. so it's my belief that they were meeting with him. >> okay. there is some ambiguity in the direction to recruit through giuliani. ambassador volker said the president dismissed ukraine and said, "if you work don might want to talk on it, go to talk