as if i'm a theater critic in this -- [laughter] chris: that's exactly what we -- >> that's where we are. it's all about narrative and when it's engaging the american people -- chris: who was effective, who wasn't. >> right. on the merits, i think it's fairly obvious that president trump demanded a quid pro woe quo from the -- quid pro quo. whether that's impeachable, never mind whether he should be removed for that, reasonable people can differ. that said, i think that these hearings have not been sufficiently dramatic to put the kind of pressure on 20 senate republicans that will lead to ever removing the president from office. in terms of sondland, he's just a wildcard because he's had to change his testimony because he clearly was the president's political guy who really had no place doing anything like this to begin with. he's the ambassador to e.u., and ukraine's not a member of the e.u., he is clearly scared of being caught in a perjury trap -- not trap, perjuring