we'll ask our sunday recognizes whether letting taxes rights se this right thing to do and oprah's chef teaches inner city kids how to take care of themselves, all right now on fox news sunday. >> chris: hello again from fox news in washington. with the midterm campaign intensifying we've asked two big thinkers to discuss is. from vermont, howard dean, former governor and chair of the democratic party and here in studio, former house speaker newt gingrich. welcome to fox news sunday, let's start with the case of shirley sherrod, the department of agriculture official forced to resign because the obama administration mistakenly thought that she made racial comments. speaker gingrich, after she quit you said this: >> i often disagree with this administration. but, firing her after that kind of viciously racist attitude, was exactly the rights thing to do. and, the fact that we have to be genuinely color blind. you can't be a black racist any more than a white racist. >> chris: speaker was that irresponsible calling her viciously racist, based on an internet clip that had been taken out of context. >> remember, i was operating in the context of the secretary of agriculture. having summarily fired her. and, therefore there was no reason to disbelieve the clip and, when you see -- you see one more example of the obama administration's continuing incompetence. apparently, she didn't even get the courtesy of a chance to talk to the secretary of agriculture. who i suspect fired her under the pressure from the white house. and she says she was told that they were firing her under pressure from the white house and my comments were in the context of a clip which was validated by the secretary of agriculture. who had fired her. clearly, when you look at the complete clip, you look at the background information and listen to the white farmer say she had actually been helpful i think it is a fair case to be made the administration acted with destructive irresponsibility. in the way they fired her. >> chris: in fairness, it is not the first time you have done it. last year, when the nomination of sonia sotomayor to the supreme court came up and the comments about the wise latina woman comments were released, you tweeted this: white man, racist nominee would be forced to withdraw and latina woman racist should also be forced to withdraw. why so quickly to call people racist? >> what i said about her, i think, still stands, which was, the statement she made was clearly racist. now i don't know if in her heart she's racist, look at her quotes, if you put in white male instead of latina you would say it was the statement of a racist. the other night i was reacting directly to someone who was fired by the white house and secretary of agriculture, based on a clip which was shown and my point is, a point you would agree with, there is no room in america for a black, latino or white or asian or native american racist. and, we are either color blind or we are not. >> chris: let me bring in governor dean because the -- >> chris, let's -- >> go ahead, sir. >> let's be blunts about this. i don't think newt gingrich is a racist and you are certainly not a racist but fox news did something which as racist. they took -- had an obligation to find out what was really in the clip, and, they had been pushing a theme of black racism with the phony black panther crap and this business and sotomayor and all of the other stuff, and if the tea party called out racist the republican party has to stop with this rayist fringe and fox news, you put that on -- >> wait, wait, wait, wait, governor, i know facts are -- i know facts are inconvenient things, but, let's try and deal with the facts. the fact is, that the obama administration fired or forced shirley sherrod to quit before her name had ever been mentioned on fox news channel. did you know that, sir? >> i -- what i do know is that video -- >> did you now that, her name -- did you know that she was fired before her name was ever mentioned on the fox news channel? >> what about the video? where did that play? what about the -- >> the video had never played. the video never played on the fox news channel, before the white house fired her, it was on government.com and we are not responsible for them and i agree -- it was not on fox news and maybe you shouldn't be using racist phrases, either. >> and it was about to go -- and it was about to go on glenn beck, which is what the administration was afraid of. look, i think that she should have been fired, summarily. and, i think we ought to stop being afraid of glenn beck and the racist fringe of the republican party. fox news was not blameless during this. you played it up -- and, i don't know if ever there was a clip of the white farmer saying, wait, the woman helped us save the farm, did that ever appear on fox news. >> chris: actually, i don't know, because i wasn't covering that part of the story but we certainly reported that part of the story, whether he was willing to appear i haven't seen the white farmer, i have seen his wife, but not him anywhere but that may be a mistake onmy part. but let's get back to what you said. the obama white house fired her, administration fired her for fear -- not realities, the fear that she was going to appear on glenn beck. is that what barack obama campaigned for when he said he was going to change the 24/7 media cycle? is that the profile in courage. >> that is wrong, as you know, i made a career of standing up to that kind of stuff and i think that was a mistake on the part of the obama administration but i will not let the right wing press off the hook on this. >> chris: again, i mean, again, in fact, one of the -- what are the facts here, sir? the facts are, her name had never been mentioned on the fox news channel. until -- explain to me, why do you think the obama administration... they would have -- >> >> chris: let me ask my question and you can answer, why do you think the barack obama white house administration fired her before her name ever appeared on fox news? >> did you -- did fox news play the clip that turned out to be inaccurate? >> chris: after she was fired. >> right, i don't think it matters whether it was before or after. the question is, you played it, you did not do your job, not you personally but the people who chose to play the clip and there is an ongoing theme about black racism in america and i agree with newt gingrich, has no place in america, black, white, latino or anything else but to cater to the minority racism and stressing the comments like this, is -- some of which are take out of context does not help the country knit itself together. >> if i could a second i want to point out the n.a.a.c.p. operated off the same clip and action by the secretary of agriculture, also, from -- >> i agree, that was wrong as well. >> and the n.a.a.c.p. has condemned the new black panthers as a racist organization. so, in fact -- >> i agree. >> i have on occasion sided with the n.a.a.c.p.'s characterizations, and all i'm suggesting, and i think it is very worrisome to people, if the obama administration is this afraid of glenn beck, how do they deal with the iranians? i mean, if they show forces this -- >> there may be similarities. >> if they are frightened by an american tv show, how do they deal with the real world. >> let me ask you a question because it goes to a bigger issue. you spoke to a progressive conference and at which you said: you elected barack obama, you elected a democratic congress, you elected a democratic senate, and, now it is time for them to have a like democrats if they want to get reelected. they've forgotten where they came from. question: have the president and congressional democrats been too timid? >> well, obviously the health care thing, is my largest concern, though that is over and done with and we have to make what we have work, but, that was a disappointment, for me. financial reform, was good. there is definitely good stuff in there, and, there are things that i thought got taken out at the last minute and there were some concerns, but, i think, the major problem here, is people really wanted change. you've got, for example, lobbyists who then went for -- i mean, people who worked for major insurance company, health insurance company and ended up as chiefs of staff of people who had a key role in writing the health insurance bill and that is the kind of stuff that is not supposed to be going on. with the new election that we -- regime and new administration, so forth and so on. so, what -- all we really want, i think from the so-called democratic wing of the democratic party is really to stand up for what we believe in. there is a congressman in virginia, who will have a tough time getting reelected, tom periello, a conservative -- replacing a conservative republican and he'll get reelected by a hair, why? because he practices something called conviction politics and is explaining to everybody in his district why he voted for the health care bill and why he thinks it will be good and he's not running away from anything, he's not afraid of glenn beck or afraid of the right and that is what we have to have some of in this party. >> chris: let's talk about voters' number one concern and that is jobs and the economy. speaker gingrich, why hasn't the economy bounced back nearly as much as the barack obama white house said it would when they pushed through the $862 billion stimulus package and should the bush tax cuts for the wealthy be allowed to expire, especially at a time when the economy is still fragile. >> first of all, the obama administration apparently announced on friday they expect unemployment for all of next year to be at 9%. now, americans should be very concerned about this. this is the first time since the great depression that we have had this level of unemployment continuing for more than a year. and i think it is because you have job-killing policies. and this is where the governor dean and i deeply disagree. i think the stimulus package is fundamentally long, trickle down bureaucracy does not work and i think the tax increases that are buried inside the health bill will further depress the economy and the tax increases and regulations in the financial reform bill will further depress the economy. and i think the proposal as they raise taxes next year, the safest thing for america will to be have a provision passed this fall that said no tax increase of any kind, in 2011 and the fact is, i have been in ten states in the last 14 days, businesspeople say over and over again, i will create no new jobs in this environment, because the uncertainty is too frightening. >> chris: extend all the bush cuts. >> i simply would say no tax increases, keep currents law as it is and no tax increase next year and look seriously at the tax cuts, because, we are stuck at 9.5 or 9% unemployment and we're in danger of drops to 12 -- droping to 12 as much as rising to 8. >> chris: why hasn't the recovery been stronger and what about the bush tax cuts for the wealthy. >> i think the recovery has not been stronger because the hole dug by the bush administration was far worse than anybody could imagine and second of all i don't think wall street is doing what it is supposed to even after the shameful performance of the last two years, they are not allocating capital and when you, and is still going on today, maker mon-- make your mo by pushing paper around instead of venture capital and job creating things, it makes it harder. i dozen agree for two reasons, the stimulus has done good and the cbo thinks that is true, also but here's the fundamental reason i disagree on the tax issues, newt gingrich and i would agree the deficit is a huge problem and we cannot continue with deficits in the trillion in the dollar range, it's not doable. so, if you fix the deficit, everybody has to pay something. you can't -- we can't as democrats go out and talk about entitlements, if people who are making $250,000 a year are getting tax cuts the. that makes no sense at all. we are all in this together and everybody has to put something on the table and i don't believe for a moment, i don't believe for a moment going back to clinton's tax rates, for people who make over $250,000 a year will hurt the economy at all. >> chris: we're running out of time, a couple of minutes left and i have two more issues. charlie rangel, governor dean, should congressman rangel cut a deal with the house ethics committee to spare house democrats the spectacle of a publicrial a couple of months before the midterm elections. >> i don't get into that. charlie has run afoul of the ethics committee and, if he wants to cut a deal that is his business, but, this process has to work. and i'm proud to say the provides work. he did some things that looked like they ought to get him thrown out of congress and if it turns out he did them he'll get thrown out of congress and that ills the way the process is supposed to work. >> let me pick up on that point, there is talk, speaker gingrich, maybe they may work out a deal that would be sure of his expulsion from congress. >> look, congressman rangel has every right as an american citizen to defend himself if he believes he's innocent he ought to fight and if he and his attorneys believe he is guilty it is to his interest and the democratic party's interest to cut a deal, and the question, whether or not the deal will be acceptable to the congress, once these kinds of things become public, it gets harder and harder, and fits patterns that go back to a number of other members. >> chris: we have a minute left, speaker gingrich, you said the other day, you have been never been this serious about running for president in 2012 and you will make a decision shortly after the mid terms, february or march of next year. having gone through this with you, in 2008 and they say this respectfully why shouldn't we question whether are playing the candidate card so that you can get more attention for your... >> you will assume that up until february or march and i don't run you can say i told you and if i do, you can say it was real and that is a decision we'll make in february or march and i'm not very much concerned about it. >> chris: are you playing the cards so you can get more attention. >> no, listen, i am seriously looking at and our family is seriously looking at what would it take and i have talked about it, this is a hard family decision, a deep commitment and, it is... >> let me put en a good word for newt gingrich here. >> chris: now -- >> i'm serious, the biggest difference between this republican congress and i don't agree with much newt gingrich wants to do but the biggest difference is, he had a ton of ideas to move the country forward and did when she was speaker and there are no ideas in the republican party right now in the congress. they they're party of no and desperately need intellectual leadership and whatever you think of newt gingrich he can supply that intellectual leadership and i hope he runs. >> chris: i think there is a compliment in the there. >> i am not sure i can survive it in the primaries. >> chris: speaker gingrich, governor dean, thanks for coming in, please come back, always a pleasure. up next fallout over the firing of shirley sherrod. what does it say about race and politics in america? we'll ask the reverend jesse jackson after the quick break. ee jackson, after this break. 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>> well, you can be. in this age of social media, i thought when newt tried to equate with how one handles iran is false, and when you about to get hit by news media criticism and you feel there is no foundation there is a tendency to buckle. the reality is, the shirley sherrod, she was denied due process and the white house was wrong and that is why the white house apologized and gibbs and the president. and, secretary vilsack were wrong in overreacting but that was the basis of the react but i would think, in days to come, the idea of character assassination on the media whether by blogging or by youtube, we should see that as being morally wrong and, critical of the political climate. >> but, reverend as i pointed out with governor dean the white house, the administration fired her before her name appeared on fox news channel or to my knowledge any of the other cable channels and they fired her for fear and i thought the president came into try and change the culture in washington. >> there is a new source of media culture, too. and there is a conglomerate of blogs and once the blog was released which was about to go on other blogs and persuasions like fox news and, before the axe falls, there was a fear factor, and, one could be sign as, one runs from being attacked and this is what they did, really, they were wrong. >> chris: how do you explain the n.a.a.c.p. operations sherrod's resignation based on a clip that ran, as you say on a conservative web site when they had access to her entire 43 minute speech and she made it before an n.a.a.c.p. meeting. >> well, again, they apologized and you saw a calamity of errors here. but what i find interesting, chris, just this past thursday, the black... innins, a $3.2 billion settlement for race discrimination and we haven't discussed, that they would not honor, 100,000 black farmers, who get no press and native americans get no press and, we are arguing about how fast or slow the white house reacted. also, the testimony -- the might family farmer, they stepped up to the plate and aligning with sherrod is a great news story and one you shouldn't miss. >> chris: and i agree with you. and let me ask a bigger question. do you think the administration has been too timid in taking on conservatives, too concerned about being branded as liberal? >> well, they are attacked for being liberal in fact and i mean, you fight for a health care bill, to cover all americans and leave none behind, an attack that is being a race appeal which is not true, but it is put mind yeah as true. any move for racial just is a bates for attack and that is the climate, at some point, the administration must simply do suings basic -- something as basic as enforce the law. and you see that, enforce the law and if it comes that, to take the hit. and, lyndon johnson had to take the hit, truman took the hit. you cannot get around it. you have to enforce racial justice and gender equality. >> chris: speaking of racial justice, it seemed that week this white house went to some lengths to keep the president out of another conversation about race. is that's a mistake? >> well, they tried to avoid it but it is unavoidable. when i was -- 50 years ago, seeking access to public accommodations, we were separated by race. we couldn't use the same, hotel, motel, park, library and, now, we have these tiers and here we are today with a new conversation. when, university of georgia plays georgia tech, we have overcome the level of racial fear. on the other hand, you look at income gap. or look at wealth gap, and blacks and infant mortality, life expectancy, and in home ownership and, president barack obama and... a man from illinois, filed a lawsuit, a bank darting blacks and browns, hear me now. >> chris: we're running out of time. i have two more questions, if i may, sir. the first is about the question of race. because, you were involved in an incident recently, some say you played the race card recently and it came out when the owner of the cleveland cavaliers, wrote an open letter after lebron james announced he was leaving the team in which he said this about james' leaving: he called his decision a shameful display of selfishness and betrayal by one of our very own and here's how you responded. he speaks as an owner of lebron, not the owner of the cleveland cavaliers. the feelings of betrayal, personify a slave-master mentality, he sees lebron as a runaway slave. question, why make it about race? couldn't it just have been about the owner of a team and a fan, who was terribly disappointed by a decision? >> well, it went beyond that. here's a guy who owns the fathead, reduced it from 99 to 17.1:the -- benedict arnold and the guy who bought the casino licenses and expected lebron to... and about to get 30% investments from the china to expand his empire... >> chris: don't you think he would have been just as upset as lebron james were a white star? >> i don't know. what i do know is that he said lebron quiet quit five times and quitting is -- why would a guy honoring a contract get attacked in the way by the owner of a team, like his major source of revenue got away and to me it looked like dred scott. that is my interpretation, and i think he was wrong and i think any other owner who does that to a player, should face the consequences, i think it was really wrong. >> chris: and less than a minute left, reverend jackson, should charlie rangel make a deal with the houses ethics committee, to get house democrats off the hook and avoid the spectacle of the public trial in the fall? >> it may not -- it is his personal choice to make, charlie feels he is innocent, and he feels he'll vindicate himself and so, he may want to go through the due process route or make the decision and those are his choices to make and i respect him for what he has done across these 30 years of public service. >> chris: reverend jackson, thank you so much for coming in today, always a pleasure to talk with you, sir. >> thank you, sir. >> chris: coming up, the fallout from the shirley sherrod case with the white house, media and the national conversation about race. our sunday regulars weigh in, and believe me, you won't want to miss it. ♪ [ man ] if it was simply about money, every bank loan would be a guarantee of success. at ge capital, loaning money is the start of the relationship, not the end. i work with polaris every day. at ge capital, we succeed only when they do. whoo! awesome! yes! we've got to get you out of the office more often. ♪ my turn to drive. ♪ there's a moment where everything comes together. where there's magic. and you now understand what nature's been hiding. ♪ at dow we understand the difference between innovation and invention. invention is important. it's the beginning. it's the spark. but innovation is where we actually create value for dow, for society, and for the world. ♪ at dow, we're constantly searching for how to use our fundamental knowledge of chemistry to solve these difficult problems. science is definitive. there is a right answer out there. 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[ male announcer ] if you cannot afford your medication, astrazeneca may be able to help. he >> jumped the gun partly because we now live in this media culture where something goes up on youtube or a blog and everybody scrambles. >> chris: president obama blaming agriculture secretary tom vilsack and the media for the firing of shirley sherrod. time for our sunday group, brit hume, fox news senior political analyst, and contributors mara liasson of national public radio. bill kristol of "the weekly standard" and juan williams also from national public radio. brit, what do you make of the sherrod case and what do you make of the argument that this is one more example of a 24/7 media culture, run amock, and we're all guilty. >> if this weren't so depressing, it would make a wonderful farce. i mean, the misinformation that emanated from this events beginning with the misleading videotape, or portion of the videotape, started it all, although it should be noted, for the record, that the video did contain mention of how she came to see things in a different light and part of redemption story was there, it was completely overlooked in the early going, by everybody. principally the administration. which reacted to it before it was really reported anywhere outside of the blogosphere and the web. and misinformation then led to her firing, and, then, there were all kinds of myths about how that came about. and, you heard governor dean here on the program, this morning, spouting one of the principal elements of that misinformation is that fox news was deeply involved in causing this and fox news as you pointed out had not aired the woman's name until after she was forced out and it has been depressing and part of it is the 24/7 media cycle but the 24/7 media cycle was not cranked up until after she was forced out. >> this was done in part out of a concern that they would be engulfed, the administration would be engulfed by the 24/7 media cycle and were trying do what they thought all smart communications shops do, which is to make a story not happen. and they got -- look. every entity here who did not do their homework and practice good journalism and report the entire videotape is guilty. including fox who played it but not in its entirety even after she was fired, the n.a.a.c.p. who had the videotape in their poe zeshgs assession and didn'tt before they condemned her remarks and the administration, when they -- >> the administration -- they fired their own employee. without doing due diligence. >> all the actors here, they bear the highest standard, they are the administration and her employer, no doubt and as they have acknowledged, and apologized profusely from the -- >> but they keep saying it is part of the media culture... >> look, no doubt -- >> the argument, mara, they were elected to change the cycle. what is change about. >> they did not change the cycle and it is... >> chris: do you think not preemptively firing people would be a step in the right direction. >> that was a sorry secopectacl from a to z and hopefully now the administration and media organization will not take little clips from partisan web sites and put them out as if they are the facts. >> i disagree with the moral equivalent, between the media on the one hand and the president -- >> i don't think it's a moral equivalent, they have a higher standard. >> no kidding, i was in the raising administration, 25 years ago and the media reported things falsely and if you are a cabinet secretary, you have an obligation to make sure charges leveled against them are true and you can wait a day and it would be horrible to attack the obama administration, for one day and that never happens -- do you panic and fire someone based on one report, that has not been on television yet? entirely on a blog. is pathetic, pathetic, as a matter of our political leaders' action. and i like tom vilsack and respect him. the two term governor of iowa, a guy who has been in the political maelstrom in iowa and, and if there was a negative story in the des moines newspaper, i don't think they went around fighting people and the administration was patting itself on the back, according to political tow, the deputy chief of staff was congratulating people, we got out ahead of the news cycle. >> chris: and there are senior white house staff people, it has been records, the white house denies that that happened. is the white house afraid of the conservative media. >> yes, the white house is afraid of a charge that has been building in conservative media, the suggestion that somehow you have a black president, a black attorney general and there is now going to be reverse discrimination against white people in america. and i don't know exactly where this is coming from but it is out there. i think part of it is the argument over the new black panther party case, where the bush administration filed a voter intimidation case and some felt the obama administration has not aggressively pursued the case and now it is a metro of contentious between -- before the u.s. civil rights commission and you have the argument over whether or not the bush administration had politicized justice with the u.s. attorneys this past week and the obama administration did not go forward towards prosecuting anybody in that case and you have immigration which is also a big racial issue, hot button in this country. >> chris: they pushed -- >> i don't know who is pushing but both sides are playing the issue to stir their base as we approach the fall election and finally, you have the conflagration of the n.a.a.c.p. and the tea party. the tea party holding up signs that are very aggressively condemning president obama, without much sensitivity, and, times crossing the line and the n.a.a.c.p. calling them out and saying they have to renounce racist elements in their midst and then, andrew brighthart saying here's evidence of the n.a.a.c.p. and this was intended to show the n.a.a.c.p. has racists in its ranks and what you have is everybody playing the race card for their own -- including this agricultural department which has a huge suit against it by black farmers and everybody says, you know what? it is okay to push the race button and have everybody else distracted. >> you know, i... coming back to this, with the president, i think that his political advisors and perhaps, he, himself, haven't deathly afraid of the idea that he is simply principally a black president. rather than a president who happens to be black, and, that historical achievement that that recommends. and, it's the idea -- if the idea were to take hold, he and his justice department, was juan mentioned, are carrying out policies and actions, to pursue a kind of racial agenda, or a racist, even a racist agenda, this would be political death. so you have this hypersensitivity. to an official who made what appeared to be a proud statement of having conducted her business in a racial way though it was 24 years ago and we now know it was, it was actually a moving story of her turning away from that kind of thing and i sense that is what is drivings this here, a profound sensitivity, they were pigeonholed in that way and he has marginalized and politically diminished for good. >> chris: real quick. >> i think, they picked on a little person, she's someone they don't know, and, threw her under the bus, eric holder, who called the nation of cowards... they don't pick on him and, it is just so irresponsible. as a matter of running the government. just, ask someone to resign based on one tape that has not been shown yet on television and has not been confirmed. >> chris: we have to take a break. when we come back, the debate over the recovery, now some democrats are saying this is no time to raise taxes even on the wealthy. we know why we're here. to chart areener path in the air and in our factories. ♪ to find cleaner, more efficient ways to power flight. ♪ and harness our technology for new energy solutions. [ female announcer ] around the globe, the people of boeing are working together, to build a better tomorrow. that's why we're here. ♪ of some of the annoying symptoms menopause brings. go introducing one a day menopause formula. the only complete multivitamin with soy isoflavones to help address hot flashes and mild mood changes. new one a day menopause formula. imagine... one scooter or power chair that could improve your mobility and your life. one medicare benefit that, with private insurance, may entitle you to pay little to nothing to own it. one company that can make it all happen... your power chair will be paid in full. the scooter store. hi i'm dan weston. we're experts at getting you the scooter or power chair you need. in fact, if we pre-qualify you for medicare reimbursement and medicare denies your claim, we'll give you your new power chair or scooter free. i didn't pay a penny out of pocket for my power chair. with help from the scooter store, medicare and my insurance covered it all. call the scooter store for free information today. call the number on your screen for free information. i believe that the high end >> i believe the high end tax cuts have not created jobs, they have increased the deficit and they should be repealed. >> raising anyone's taxes at this moment in time and this weak economy, doesn't make economic sense. >> chris: a new split among democrats about the wisdom of letting the bush tax cuts for the wealthy expire at a time when the economic recovery is still fragile. and we're back now with our group. it's not a stampede but suddenly we are hearing from democrats including three in the senate, and well maybe we shouldn't raise taxes on the wealthy yet, maybe we should keep the tax cuts for a couple of years until the economic recovery is strong. what they're chances the president and congressional leaders will now back off on their call to let the tax cuts expire by raising taxes on the wealthy. >> i think the obama administration was determined to lets the high end tax cuts expire but to keep the tax cuts for people making $250,000 or less. now, that you will see there are three democrats, kents conrad and ben nelson and evan byah, they say it's not a good idea now, maybe over time, yes, the tax cuts are quite expensive. we went through a big fight, called the deficit versus spending. and i would say, that people who are concerned about the deficit won, look how much the package of unemployment benefits had to be whittled down in order to pass, and now we're in the second chapter of the fight, we have the deficit versus tax cuts, all of a sudden republicans don't care so much about the deficit any more, and they just care about tax cuts. and i think the problem for the obama administration is, they are also a little bit pregnant on this and want -- most of these tax cuts to continue, too, which are bad for the deficit and i think there has to be a deal, i don't know what it will be, maybe that they continue temporarily, there is business tax breaks aintend of the high end ones and it is a volatile issue, and being accused of raising taxes is not where the obama administration wants to be -- >> they don't mind raising taxes for the wealthy. >> but it is is a big charge to raise taxes in a veegs an reces >> chris: what about deficits versus the recovery and keeping it going, fed chairman ben bernanke, who this week said in the short-term we have to be more concerned about economic recovery than -- and worry about the deficit once we get to the midterm and thinks that the recovery is fragile enough, and doesn't want to do anything to mess it up. >> you know, the white house economists ironically do -- if you read between the lines, believe the deficit and economic projections, friday, the white house shows the economy growing 4% in 2012 and 2011 and the congressional budget office shows it growing 2.5% and asking christina romer, why are your numbers higher, is it a rosy scenario and she said, no, we are building into our projections, enacting the obama tax cuts, enacting the -- not raising taxes. on the huge majority of american, and, that will help economic growth. christina romer, president obama's economist understands that tax increases inhibit economic growth and, she and her husband had a paper published, update of their famous old paper in the american economic review, june, 2010 i know you were reading that last week... >> chris: updated, also, fascinating! >> and, also, i wasn't reading it but i saw it on a blog and, there it was, june 2010, christina and david romer, say, empirical studies they tax increases are contractionary and, effects are strongly, and... the obama administration is going to be in a tough position saying the middle class tax cuts, keeping them, the rates where they are now, that is important, to recovery and we can raise top tax rates and small business tax rates by a lot and that will not affect economic growth? i think that is a tough position to argue. >> chris: juan? >> you know, i wish we had videotape of you talking to senator kyl and you said, are republicans willing to pay for extending the bush tax cuts and he became tongue tied and didn't know how to respond. because, i think it is a real difficult issue, to say you care so deeply about deficits, which has been the republican mantra and yet, let's extend tax cuts that will drive up over ten years, $1.6 trillion. the size of the u.s. debt. and that is just -- just doesn't make sense, so, to me, what you have to do here is protect the economic recovery. now, you said that ben bernanke said in the short-term we have to support that. but, you know what, former chair alan greenspan said, the deficit and the size of it is the real threat to the economy. and, is a bigger threat than even the short-term benefits that would come to the economy. >> alan greenspan is in favor of not letting any of the tax rates stay where they were and getting rid of all of them -- >> if you are a deficit hawk, letting the tax cuts expire and if you are a growth person, keeping the -- keeping the current tax rate for two years. >> let's look at the record here. >> chris: gentlemen -- >> there were two times in the past 25 or 30 years when the deficit began to grow, when we made major progress against the deficit. once was in the middle of the clinton years. when the economy was boom, and there was a dot-com bubble in the middle of that but the economy was roaring and we went all the way to surplus which was a remarkable thing and the economy, eventually tipped into recession and the deficit began to grow again and the middle years of the bush presidency, the economy boomed and the deficit, despite the war spending which was extraordinary, the deficit came down i think for three consecutive years and didn't get to surplus but came down remarkably during those three years and that was, we now know, the housing bubble. bubbles -- for all their other problems, bubbles are wonderful for dealing with the deficit, because they produce a gusher of tax receipts and the only time we made progress against the deficit has been when the economy was roaring. now, mind you, during those clinton years, second term clinton. the spending restraints, that were imposed by republicans, and the president went along with, helped that. >> tax hikes. tax hikes. he raised taxes. >> he did in the beginning of his administration. but, the boom didn't come until later. so, it didn't keep that from happening. but the point being, what you need most of all is to meteorology from this problem, this recession in full, and have a robustly growing economy. i don't think you can get there from here, if all of these -- the tax rates go up. >> you know, the tax hikes expired, cuts expired. why is that? bush and the republicans -- because they are too expensive to continue, and that is why they sunset. and, if the republicans have had the courage of their convictions they would have made them permanent and they didn't, because they couldn't figure out how to pay for them. >> what are we talking about in reality? tax rates going from i think 39.6% to 35%? >> they're at 35:going to 39. >> in other words, they would be under the bush tax cuts, they are 35 and would bump back up to 39. that is, you know, and this is for the very rich in the country, benefiting even in the midst of this and people still under 250, couples under 250 and individuals, under 200 -- >> let me ask you, juan -- when was the last time -- >> president obama cut taxes. >> when was the last -- >> 95% of working people by cutting payroll taxes. >> let me ask this question. when was the last time one of these poor people offered you a job? the people who are the job creators, the people who have money to invest, capital to put at risk, to build enterprises and they hope make more money, are people that have money to begin with. >> and god bless them and they are important, but, don't you have to have -- >> if you diminish, a, the amount of money they have on hand by taxing it away, and, the incentive they have to make more, because they know a larger portion will be tackxed away yo are dampening the impulse to grow the economy. >> chris: final 20 ekdz. >> consumers are the heart and soul of the economy. you have to have people who are willing to go in and spend money, in order that small business will be in a position then to do this hiring. you cannot have banks and small business saying, we're sitting on our money because we're worried about risk. that is ridiculous when they have the money, thank you, panel, don't forget to check the latest edition of panel plus and our group picks up on this discussion, up next the power player of the week. next, our pf the week. mmmmmm. mmmmmm. wow! you have got to be kidding me. 80 calories? 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