China quotes, what does it mean for the rest of the world . The welcome to this week. To the point, im probably gonna guess and im glad to be joined by todays guest. Im gonna introduce them to your vendor in front of the book. 8 o is the senior germany corresponded for the economist based in berlin. Felix lee is a journalist, a long time correspondence in china, and currently works for the specialist. German news outlet, china table. And you saw about the a is my colleague from dw, she is joining us from deli 12. You thank you very much for being with us and lets cut right to the chase phoenix. Id like to start with you. She certainly knows how symbolic it is not to attend a g 20 summit for the very 1st time. What do you make of his decision . Well, well, for sure the, theres no or theres no official announcements. So we do not know for sure what the reasons why hes not attending the g 20 summit, and denny, but i think is not so much meant against india. I mean, there are rivalries, there are disputes border disputes, but they exist that they exist already fall longer time. So i dont think this was a current reason why its not attending. If i would interpret something, uh, i think she was, she just wants to show that g. 20 is not the most important meeting anymore. And this is moment against the western countries on breaks. She attended 2 weeks ago in johannesburg. The western countries werent a, at the brakes under the twentys of the western countries are part of it. So he wants to show a little bit of so its a little bit ment i think moment against the west, especially as it can see usa, thats a very important perspective. And yet we know that the g 20 is highly symbolic asia. Weve seen many reports on how big the g 20 summit has been promoted inside of india. How big a blow is. Shes absence for the host country in india is not reacting in a way that is a blow. And i completely agree with the, the official statement that india has given is that this has got nothing to do with india deport administer instruction, good unimed, fact even the internship um its outcomes. We have gone on record and said that in the past also a lot of leaders have had to miss the summer because the latest reasons of clothes is the 1st time that china is missing. But of course, hes sending his representative and all the discussions, all the meetings will be done with the representative. So china is not missing, it is the leader that is missing and ready for me please, or chunk or even went on to saying that interview. That was the countrys, she meant china and russia, they would know best why they are doing it. Hes sick, moved towards the west. He did not name gas. He did not see us on your, on anyone. But he did say know that this is probably chinas be off showing a to do with that g. 20 can be all about the last because china as lisa china was there for the bricks. China, she didnt think has mentioned that even with the in briggs. So it does not look like it as of now that china is trying to block india when it comes to g brandy. So if its not a blow to india, it certainly is for the platform as we heard of handling. Do you agree with that assessment and if so, how much does it affect the possibility to actually find Common Ground in the summit . I agree with other assessments. I will tell her that i think one of the additional reasons might be that she just feels he should not leave china at the moment. The economy isnt really poor shape. Plus theres some political time all at home that we may not know about. I mean, thats certainly something going on, but you know the details are sketchy. So i think in addition to all the other reasons, i think maybe he just feels its not a good moment to the vision. Um, well that to put him and she im missing, right. So um, in terms of finding come and gone for the big challenges of all the time. I do think that makes it more difficult, right . Because you have a big chunk of the representative of the word population not represented as in some ways. Um, i still think, you know, you can probably achieve importance at least symbolically very important things. But its, its not how it was meant to be, i think initially, for sure. And the other important aspect of this might leave the stage free for india to become the so called voice of the global south. You said, do you think this is among motors ambitions . To become the bigger voice, at least in front of the west. Absolutely. And india and especially more the and his team, theyve never shied away from saying that they want to be the big brother in the global south. In fact, as i was mentioning, the foreign minister ladies and 3, he even went on to say that in the beginning of last year read, he mentioned india that we started using the term global. So that was not being used for a very long time. And we made sure that of each of the words that there is a difference between the global north end of the south and the north is actually where all the decisions are taking and global south is lagging behind. So we really went ahead and talked about that and now the whole world is talking about that. Now the western countries are also thinking about the global so. So a bit of a possible will be on his team. They are taking credit for everything good. Thats happening and move this out and that the countries on the bill themselves are being pushed on the main stage. Except there is a gigantic powerhouse on the way. The g 20 represents a whopping 85 percent of the worlds economic power seat and kingdom only turn his back on the west or joe biden, but also in a way on indias Prime Minister night in the movie. Lets have a look at the current state of the indo chinese relations. August in south africa. The break summit when moody and changing ping united against the domination of the west. But in the global south, each lays claim to the status of economic superpower. A rivalry with historic groups for decades, china and india have been fighting over territory in the himalayas, cheese the latest provocation, a map that declares and didnt claim territory as the chinese table got to deal with thorough terry and leader of the worlds 2nd largest economy has been expanding chinese dominance, we use in the indian ocean to his instrument of power, the belgian Road Initiative no render moody, the hidden do a nationalist Prime Minister of the welds largest democracy, deals ruthlessly with political opponents and minorities. He steering his country steeply upwards. Theres no other place where the economy is growing as false as in india, most recently are taking china for 5 quarters in a row. By the end of the decade, india could become the worlds 3rd largest economy, with a population that is larger and younger than chinas moodys latest triumph. India is supposed to move, landing, bringing it in line with china, is the balance of power shifting in indias favor. And im going to throw that question directly to you eventually visit shifting in favor of india. I do think thats a re balancing of paula uh, mainly uh, all of a sudden in big pots because the chinese economy is, is, its not in good shape. And i dont think any, i dont think its going to recover any time soon. Use unemployment is very high. Thats. Thats the big Property Price and the Properties Like this. So important in china, i think its responsible for a quarter of gdp unemployed as you know, millions of people. So thats certainly, you know, that one economic power waning west india is actually doing really well. So in that sense, thats certainly a re balancing of power. Politically, india, so democracy will be at an in public one. That is a democracy west. China isnt. So again, india has an advantage. So absolutely, i do think thats a re balancing of power between those 2 incredibly important countries. And how do you think that is perceived on the other side . Felix group in china seas. India as a big level of threat. Maybe even not so much. Not at least not yet. Uh, because uh, from the size of the economy. Uh. Even though in yeah, has passed on population, but on the size of the economy, china is still so much bigger than in your, in the chinese know it. And the, i totally agree trying to at the moment has huge economy problems and they will not disappear very soon. Whats new about china so far until recently, the economy grows was the top number 11 priority on everything. We didnt know much about how product to work in china, but at least we could somehow trust that the economy growth is very important target. Um this has changed and she didnt think. And so somehow it is a little bit of also taken into account to, to have less growth in china at the moment. Decide the problem was a property, a bubble of because of the china, of course is also suffering from the sanction spies. The u. S. The Tech Technology sanctions and this is taken into account china. We are talking about the listing, the coupling from china in europe, china is already doing it. They want to d couple on especially they want to get less dependent on the west and technologies. And on the other hand, they, uh, and that means for a before then the for short time, this will reduce the economy grows because the trying to develop their own technology. And this of course means uh for the meantime that it might hurt the economy. But finish when we talk about the technology specifically, it has also banned Different Companies from china operating in their country. Uh, how do you think that plays into the equation . Its uh not on the, on the again, not yet. I would say at least not on the top 10 again, not as a subject, i think at the moment it is also not seen as a main competitor, not yet, maybe in the future time, the main problems in china. It has at the moment to deal, especially with the u. S. A. Treat uh war and all of this technology sanctions, itd be due to each other. So this is at the moment, the bigger the topic of the big issue in china. Lets shift the perspective to india because from what were hearing, china does not really seem to see in the as a big threat. But sometimes that at least i have the perception that the rhetoric and india could be a little bit different. Talk us through how the perception is in the country in this image of india, as a rising superpower, maybe a good driving silva, bower. And the next biggest thing that is something that is being sold a lot here. And that has also got to do with the elections that are coming up next year. And in fact, hosting g 20 in day me, which is a very difficult task in a city such as dbi. That is also a sign that the multi government wanted to give to the people here that if we can do this and we can manage those and me and my government, we can actually, if they can get to places. So that is the feeling right now. And in their goal to talking about uh, becoming the posed most important um economy. In the next few years, were talking about 2027 already. And although there are a lot of studies that show that even if you have to just go as state to school, it will stay diseased and im with the, by the end of the decade. But im going to send that engine. What do you make sure that he picks the credit whenever possible . Because as i said, its election next year and who would not want a big brownie points when its possible. And as far as the dr. Literally with china is concerned use that is a very strong sentiment about driving to be with china and what it keeps pushing about this 5, treat in economy that youre going to reach the total position. 5 trillion. The difference between india and china is still going to be huge because by the time in their ages, 5 trimming, china would have cross 25. 00 trillion. So thats still a major difference in the i would have the opportunity to see that the right behind us on china, but here it is still being behind us in china. So um, as far as the feeling is concerned, yes its there, but um, it is not going to stand out in the china. Maybe thats also a reason bundling that. I wanted to ask you, here in the west at least up there is not this rhetoric of india being a big threat as we often hear with china. Do you think thats because of the same reason that theyre not really you can download to your vehicle and i, i dont, i mean i can see if it makes this point that the time that doesnt proceed in your video spread. But, but, but i do think that supervisory and, and, and your colleague and, and deli, mentioned that and im, and i do think china is taking this rival seriously. Ok. Thats still a very different sort of proportion. But in, yeah, has the advantage that its not, it doesnt have this very complex, hostile relationship with america. Right . America wants to trade with india. It doesnt really want to trade with china. Thats another huge advantage. India has at the movement. I mean, they may think they, they could spa, thats the relatively quick relationship. But i mean there are lots the india has at the moment, quite a lot of things going full for the country. And however, we were talking about that when we talk about china, we talk very differently about india in many parts of the world. Do you think theres sort of a double standard taking into consideration that not into ammonia is also being criticized in many respects. We just saw it in the piece of the way the minorities are treated as a way political opponents are treated. Is there a double standard in europe and no, its because there is a huge difference. I mean uh yes, uh they also human right problems in yeah. Have, but india is a functioning democracy in china is not an even worse. It. So we, so if i called the one party dictatorship, we must say now its a one person dictatorship. So its a pure dictatorship, it has become a pure dictatorship under siege in pink. And we sort of hope in the last 30 years that, of course, china is still a far town run by the communist party. But there was this hope and there were good reasons for this whole that will, china will also be more politically, be more open and more liberal liberal. But this has totally, this whole pess vanished under. Shes in pain. She didnt ping has turned even the communist part of the on the, into a one person leadership. And this is a huge difference despite all of all the democratic problems in your eyes. But this is a huge difference from india. And its not the only problem. There certainly is, talk of a chinese downfall. China had shown the world how it is able to achieve record after record, and you cannot make performance. But those times seem long gone. And problems are taking over young, highly qualified, but jump less the case for 1. 00 and 5. 00 people under the age of 20 full living in china. The record figure was published last spring, will start t test and suspended release of the month lease to to sticks claiming they want to optimize the methodology. Many chinese have lost the last full consumption. All they can do is look on this, the homes they saved up full on completed Property Developers are getting into financial difficulties. The largest chinese Property Group f, a ground has the highest debt world wide over 300000000. 00. The communist policy doesnt appear to be delivering on its promise of growth and prosperity. X builds in july, were down 14. 5 percent on the year before inputs down 12. 4 percent measured in us dollars. China is official growth targets of 5 percent by the end of 20. 23 seems on feasible. Head of state g is calling on people to exercise historic patience for motioning the virtue of hardship. He tells young people to each business is the telling these economic miracle grinding to a halt. And im trying that question to you. Felix is planning to yes, the problems, i huge, the property crisis, the property bubble has burst and this will take at least one decatur uh to uh, to get over this. And its also connected with a, another huge problem. China has a demographic problem. We know this because of the one child policy. Uh, this will also heard chinese economy, but we shouldnt on the estimate how powerful the Chinese Government also economy the and financially is so uh yes, china has this huge economy problem. But a china has also a lot of power to fight this, so i dont know if you can call it the hope or something that will china will become more modest more uh again, the maybe. Yeah, i, i dont share this whole because the china has kind of such an a powerful economy. It will be able to, china will be able to deal with at least the biggest problem. China. Can i just pick up on that . And uh, you one mentioned that this one is also by interest and that shes proud he is not the economy anymore. Its his Foreign Policy ambitions. Im, you know, if he has big successes will proceed from the chinese point of view. Because as on the front policy front, he will think, you know, thats a piece of population and maybe paper over some economic hardships which are real. I mean, particular for, for young people, i forgot the precise number but the, but the young unemployed to Something Like 2025 percent. I mean its very, very high. And thats what you know, of course, terribly frustrating for, for these youngsters. Yeah. Thats totally fine. And set a, china can become even more dangerous on decision ping when the economy problems are writing that shes becoming in Foreign Policy and geo politically, even more dangerous. But doesnt that go hand in hand . Economic performance and the success and Foreign Policy. When we talk about what this all means for the rest of the world, we have to talk about the african countries. We have to talk about latin american countries. What happens if china doesnt have that power anymore . So of course, i mean, into somebody said china can have these calling the mission because its such a powerful economy. Its over the chief duck, right . I mean, is it has risen to the 2nd biggest economy in the what, what does it mean . I mean, you know, look at the belgian Road Initiatives, you know, thats still going right if maybe stalling at the moment. But china is very influential in other parts of the world in africa in particular, all of that still remains true so. So im, im not saying by all means you know, that, that we should, we should discount on that but, but i still think that is india. An interesting rival that has a pit and with a manifest itself, increasing the in the next 2 years. Arrival that however might not be immune to that chinese power show when we talk about dependence on china. It is often set the china has the bigger power, especially with the disputes with india. Whats your perception of that . But uh, thats a difficult thing to say with the china is a big above. There are disputes between both the countries, federal border disputes of both and despite the country, the still trading partners with each other and they cant do without each other. And uh, i agree with the most well defined a list of what theyve said so far. So. 1 india is not going to stop reading with china. Neither is china with the tools. Its those for india. And weve seen this new uh, got the map that has come up, that china has shown data trees that are disputed and theyre part of china in them up an industrial concerns over there. But it can be done because its dispute dictated to me. And despite that, none of them have stopped the China Investor talking that the she just thing is coming to a g. 20 or not be a student and tops. And theyre also not clubbing together against the west. They have the one inches, but theyre meeting each other in issue of their meeting each other in a deep randy. So its a strange, a modem that uh the global sold is witnessing right now. The question of course here would also be whether india is a true alternative to investments in china to trade with china, even as a lender of phoenix. Whats your take on that for the rest of the work . Its always good not to focus on trying to. So much on china as a drum and the economy has done in the last 2 decades. So uh, in the uh, should be more on the focus. Its a would be a good thing. The problem is, china is economy has become so important, especially for the germans, and it will be very, very hard to switch to, to other regions. And its not that old uh, were talking about a diversification to, to southeast asia, to latin america, to india. And its not that these markets are, were all waiting for folks loggins humans and b a s f to come. And they have develop also their own trade partners. So is this will be a tough one for especially for the germans because it was so focused on china. But of course a mid term, a long term. It is almost always good to have different partners and not to focus on, especially a very unstable or politically, even dangerous country as china is because they often talk about values of handling. Do you think theres a true interest in actually following values when it comes to cannot make decisions and with that benefit india in this case um i think sometimes ceos pay a little bit lip service to the sponsors show in theory, that is, i mean im, if youd ask them this or yes, of course we cut deeply about human rights, but often of business and commercial considerations prevented if you look at the figures. Gemini, german businesses, investment in china has not really gone down. Even though you know, thats the new time the governments china strategy, the government be encouraging German Companies to diversify. But some of the biggest Box Companies have, im making huge investments in china. You mentioned p. S. S best folks i can get. No. Its and its poppy because the Chinese Markets remains very attractive and, and does not. And of us at the movement, another obvious country that kind of replaces at least not in a short time in the longer time property. Yes, but the initial time, i think its very difficult. Its a long road ahead. We have time for one last quick question and id like to start with you felix. In a multi polar world. Will india be one of the goals . Yes, definitely. And what we have seen 2 weeks ago at the breaks as a big turning point for us, especially for the western countries because they have, we have seen a brief 15 years ago didnt really exist. And now it has become a very important, a gathering. And were not talking only about the 6 or 5 countries which joints of bricks plus were talking about 40 other countries, one to join the brakes. And this should be a long time for the western countries. You said that they have a that they havent opened up the existing to national institution, and this would be only fair and the important step know that the west of the country should open this. So not the so they that all these countries on not only live focusing on china and yeah, well see how that plays up. Thats all we have time for. Thank you very much to all 3 of our guests and of show it to you for watching. Remember, you can watch this and all other shows on our Youtube Channel searching the w news. Im call you, i guess, until next time, take care and goodbye, the shifts your god to life and it digital you know, all the latest online trend. Navigate your way through the digital jungle global perspective. Well see you guys and show you whats possible. You decide what really message to you. I are coming up on dw series russians test labs. The war of aggression on ukraine is the only war being waged by vladimir for the past 12 years. 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So get ready for the brain update. 40 to the answer to almost everything this week on d w. The, this is develop during euros and these that are 12 stories us President Joe Biden has met with indian Prime Minister in advance mode the at his residence ahead of the g. 20 meeting in new delhi. The doing the does have struck a series of commercial and defense to go to thoughts of the world spots your nation will be that presented at the 220. 00 summit box. The leaders of china and russia will not be attending