Taliban and this is something that the former President Hamid karzai did not achieve during his term and our main questions today are why has the afghan peace efforts failed so far where the International Community go wrong and finally which prize will the Afghan People pay for a potential peace deal with the taliban im going to discuss these and other questions with my excellent guests today and beginning with i mean to say the former president of afghanistan the sickos i let afghanistan from two thousand and one to two thousand and fourteen he has been involved in politics still hes still and active very very active in the political field and he is hailed the for bringing different afghan political groups together and form a government but he has also been criticized for his soft approach towards the taliban and calling them his brothers we also have marco spot so hes the federal german. Special representative for afghanistan and pakistan hes representing germany in the current Peace Process he has been a participant of the International Peace conference as in the past months and the stepdad so used to be the german ambassador in kabul from two thousand and fourteen to two thousand and sixty we also have and im also very happy to welcome my colleagues on the test man who is an Award Winning d. W. Journalist and age expert she traveled to afghanistan countless times and reported on political issues and women rights issues for five years she was the heir of the south asia correspondent in delhi india and last but not least we have heard that as our guest she is the afghanistan resort chair for Amnesty International in london she has been a civil rights activist for over twenty years and represented afghanistan on several International Donner conferences before she turned to activism she worked as a journalist on the ground mr karzai you officially initiated the Peace Process in two thousand and ten but so far not a single Major Taliban group has joined the government in kabul and said they have been able to be active in seventy percent of the afghan territory now what went wrong. Thank you maam. I think there were occasional mistake was made in two thousand and one when the International Community gathered in the bone conference to bring a solution to the afghan issue and to create a audit there the taliban should have been invited to that gathering you were part of the conference while i was not i was in afghanistan. I wish i were i wasnt there. Subsequent to that when the u. S. Intervened and the International Community joined hands. The Afghan People who overwhelmingly come to the art of the taliban give up power the thought of ahmed went back to their homes. Hes begun in afghanistan and what was shown on the television earlier in strained all happened short. What didnt happen was making sure that our neighbor parks tahn. Stops reliance on extremism as a tool to as neighbors specially to as a fast. So you blame pakistan know not only that this is a Bigger Picture its a big picture and also that the United States. Went on a revenge type of activity in afghanistan against the taliban they began to attack afghan homes they began to to take afghans us prisoners and this moved many of the taliban leaders who are who had settled down in the country to fear for life and to go back to the mountains or to go to parks that was the foundation of. The return of violence to afghanistan pakistan sparks sounds and a bit ity to accept afghanistan as a good peace for neighbor for their own interests for the disputes that riyadh the durand line and all of the issues of the United States not paying genuine attention to maintain peace rather on hunting down individuals that they thought were against and these were the fundamental issues that we faced the. Afghans we must be very clear when we would be referred to the taliban as afghans as individuals always wanted peace they were part of that country part of our side of the Afghan People. The reason that we did not succeed in our Peace Process so far is fundamentally because the afghan wish in bringing peace to the country was not the only determinant factor but where the other factor foreign factors neighbors International Community u. S. Object in the region and afghanistan all of those combined hans to deny a space which we hope those of those do is do those negative factors. Are going to go away now and if that happens we will certainly sort of have these. Mr potts so where did the International Community fail in this and all this what do you think what could have been done differently while of course its always easy to read judge the situation as it was back in two of those and one from inside at the time i agree it was a mistake not to involve taliban but on the other hand taliban were beaten there were no taliban left from our perspective so for us there was no need to involve taliban from todays point of view of course they should have been included and then piece of impossible but i have to say first of all its an its an inner conflict its fueled from from outside powers especially. And i agree we play a role in that as borough but this conflict with afghans are fighting afghans so to find a Peaceful Solutions solution afghans have to talk to afghans has to be an afghan owned afghan let Peace Process we can help facilitate that. Sometimes a process that its an afghan problem and you agree and what you have to say about this well i would agree with president karzai that there are a lot of external factors but i would also like to take you back to october two thousand and one when the Bombing Campaign of the american led invasion started at that time we were also looking at a civil war in afghanistan it was not that afghanistan back then was a peaceful country and that civil war till today is somewhat still ilaiah of the conflict they have been additional a. S. Added an added an added so now we have a very crowded battlefield in afghanistan but essentially i mean you just have to look at the government of National Unity i would rather call it the government of National Disunity because i dont see a lot of unity in this government so those internal forces i think are very much a part. Of this conflict making the conflict worse and even if we would pull out all troops now and even if pakistan were a neighbor accepting of coniston as a peaceful country im not entirely sure that we would see peace in afghanistan immediately because there are still competing forces and yes mr president i think with the united with the United States and other International Actors you know coming into the country they chose their own proxies so to say you know or germany picked one america picked one and there was a Division Within the country and to bring all those forces together for an afghan led to an afghan owned close as are you and i think thats a long way to go one thing we havent talked about so far is the Human Rights Organization that have been voiced their concern over and over again and they have been criticizing that effort in afghan women are not part of this Peace Process do you agree if even if you see in the past forty years afghan woman have been losing and losing on and you have used as political image even if the it was during chemists. It was always woman vs short the skiffs who would sit at the front seats but what we had were the womans rights unfortunately it wasnt there and even now when we look at the when the u. S. Restored to justify the attack on taliban the image that was on the long short on international t. V. Is was a woman being shot dead in afghan is said you in kabul is that you lets liberate afghan women how liberated afghan woman has became unfortunately not really much in fact afghan women were a tool to justify the war and yet this was also to justify door and to deviate support it on citizens because there wasnt any effort of happy that im and International Community to go into another war and sickened like when we look at the peace negotiations unfortunately in the past few years women are simply being. I kind of cycling from the peace negotiations what for example in monte fs Peace Process taliban is strictly forbidden a presence of woman in the city will not sit on the table we had woman of prison sikka none of these women are really at the Decision Making level at the High Peace Council often these peace deals are done with a bunch of kind of the big guys with bushy beard and the order to get here so i think this but also the case when mr karzai initiated the Peace Process as i what do you think is different this time president bunny has announced a cease fire he offered unconditional talks he even offered to negotiate the afghan constitution something Afghan People are very proud of since thats the mention in two thousand and one what is different well the announcement of a ceasefire you need actual ceasefire by the Afghan Government is a good step and its a good step also because. Now more of the countries in the house of the taliban. The b. B. C. Reported seventy percent of the country either directly under the taliban or and for spotted by the top of us that means the taliban have now launched a tree and population. With them the taliban responded by accepting that street a cease fire during eight but they killed fifteen people in the north are a yes unfortunate and forcing both sides shouldnt do that either should the government to talk villages in the name of fighting the taliban or not no not a thought about even if it is three days we are happy we welcome it and we hope that the two days will somehow eventually be extended to a permanent ceasefire to peace of couse but i must come back to my original point. Mrs arthur said our colleague said that the fight to the afghans so that a mass of the porch. The fight is not afghan in this fight to the afghans are dying it isnt afghan fight it isnt for the interests of ganesan its somebody elses fight in which we die Afghan People is the u. S. Objectives in afghanistan and the broader region is the parched and dispute with us and theyre all in his morning agenda has visited afghanistan in this began forty years ago during the cold war in the bitter rivalry between the west and the eastern bloc the consequences of been falling on us on us on us on us on us on us till today therefore in a fight in which the afghans are dying. For the cause or the interests of others we hope that we would have an arrangement where all the stakeholders the u. S. Park sun the bigger region and afghans would reach an accommodation that would be good for all thats a long shot but thats something were working to stop us on mr karzai saying that this war is imposed on afghans youre saying this is an afghan war so how can the International Community help to to to to improve the situation and i have a lot of respect for the cause and definitely out of this point i disagree because i think its an afghan conflict and the reason it has been going on for more than forty years as events are set right is that. The main reason is that the state structures in afghanistan are very weak theyve been weak for for centuries will say and if you dont have a state who reaches out to the remote areas you know providing Services LegalServices HealthServices Education and security most of all Security State has the obligation to keep their own citizens secure and thats a point that the Afghan Government cannot guarantee at the moment thats why we have to and eight or National Community yards our meant have. Paid to these people yet what we have with our the government to govern t. Their own Citizen Security and thats why we have now this condition based approach we say and we stay in this country as long as its necessary to secure the. Citizens afghan citizens but we want the Afghan Government to do that and we try to enable the Afghan Government we support the Security Forces you know we train them we advise them you want to as im sure a good conversation. Ambassador for. Afghanistan was a much poorer of country in the one nine hundred seventy s. And sixtys. But one of the most peaceful countries in the ward afghanistans government of the time was much weaker in terms of the tools of towns than we have today but it was massively just to mention the Afghan People supported it the services in the countryside were not even one percent of what we have today but the people accepted the comment a spanish switches and the question of services and all that its the question of belonging ownership a sense that things are ours today things are not ours if things were ours how come john kerry came to kabul in twenty fourteen to raise two hands make one the president out of the chief executive what business did he have to do doing that you remember in the two thousand and nine elections in afghanistan when i was the candidate the americans came in asked me to do the same thing have a chief executive and when i said no they said well you have lost it that in effect i have to guess and i have to face that they were the same accusations against you because you were installed by the United States enough got to ninety thousand an hour and yes even if you dont win yes i want to start one of the United States on the board process but the Afghan People accepted it. That was a particular situation where the taliban were defeated the International Community the entirety of the International Community came on board iran was on board an opponent of the us russia was on board had a lot of difference some of us china was on board the saudis were on board and the Afghan People accepted that arrangement we owned it and then that arrangement was indorsed by the emergency loya jirga subsequently in six months and within two years we had our constitution and elections that came as a result so the afghans accepted the new order mr do you agree to those do you think there was enough support from the afghan population or even the rural plan allegedly afghans were not given enough options or you were caught between bad and worse like i would always say they like you had to go somewhere and you have five dirty shifts and use the list there. And unfortunately this is what happened to the Afghan People they harnessed and second mr president between two thousand and two and two thousand and four you have neglected afghanistan you have a lot in your own office sheriffs crossed the country in to go and commit mass a few members militia and you closed our eyes to what was and i was in helmand and i was in kandahar why when today as you mentioned i was traveling all around the country and i have he had it decries of people in the east so mr karzai is thought official look lets take the case of helmand was helmont better of. With a mother whos other as the governor of the time or was it better all when the british and the americans insisted the tired move him and within two months the whole helmand went back to the taliban which one was the the other so should moment it was peaceful so at the same time i think it was yeah i can agree with you but at the same time that is their point yet not i think there are many things that went wrong to military training out in such areas many things when truong we had just begun for us the priority was stupidity and security we had thought of that. And at the time one hundred seventy thousand boys and girls went to school within six months after that when the british arrived together with americas the entire School System collapsed and we didnt even have five thousand dollars in schools or boys so we were right that we would do the right thing yes and we do see the situation worsening right now so what can the International Community do some type it has money dont you think that a possible peace deal and possible taliban in the Afghan Government could could could make a very difficult situation for the International Community how will they justify cooperating with the Afghan Government how will they justify giving giving aid to the Afghan Government i would like to hear modest part of that but to share my opinion with you i think first of all what it takes would be an acknowledgement of failure on the site of the International Community that we have seen a party coming from norway. Basically and their report at the bottom line said look the only thing we could prove in afghanistan is that we were a good nato ally but that was about everything we achieving there i think that is still lacking from other International Actors including germany i am a sane but it would also take i think mr president acknowledgement from the competing African Forces to acknowledge where they went wrong because i would insist i would insist yes there are international factors but there are also national effect so its not all that the afghans who are on the Playing Field now are all puppets on the strings from india eurabia iran russia know they have their very own interests of some of them a criminal interest some of them are political power thirsty interests you know its not that you know if we would take all International Actors our peace would prevail in afghanistan i really think thats a long way off because essentially we do have an internal conflict in afghanistan that is spirit i agree with you very much by International Effect us who have aggravated it also when we keep talking about the taliban i think its not a static force the taliban you know two thousand and one very different from the kind of forces that we see now because ideological factors may have changed we have an insurgency that is triggered by what mr karzai is so violently opposed the nitrates the ass trikes that its civilians know that put a lot of young fighters do you think the ideology about afghan women will change or has changed will afghan women be stilled still be able to go to school when the work of we see that more and more afghan girls do not go to school we have taliban open and threatening girls school its we have seen it a half from you know socalled i ass which we havent even mentioned yet you know that you have a more fractured Islamist Insurgency in afghanistan the. He states so i think if we are really open and honest women rights are not the issue right now they may have been used at the beginning to justify the war but today i dont think that they play a very huge role in the discussion subject mr potts and so it will and that i have German Government be able to justify working together with an Afghan Government that includes taliban reference of all we have to say that the Peace Process hasnt started yet i mean we have sort of find have to find we can still dream about it for the hook you know do it really about and we have work here so were going to find an entry point into history which is hard enough experience first we have to talk to women and if the government has to talk to the taliban and vice versa and of course the International Community plays a role in that and we are a party to the conflict no doubt about that thats why we have to play a role in the Peace Process to come but let me draw our attention your attention also to effect which has been neglected also by the terrific committee for far too long its the war economy you know we have to change the mindset of people who profit from that war and as long as people continue to profit from that why should they have an interest in stopping the conflict and its we have to we have to create what we have to promote private business you know we have to find we have to show young people especially young people perspectives to stay in the country and to do to set up their own business and to have a Economic Perspective i will come back to that later mr carr as i do you think that with a new u. S. President intensifying pressure on the neighboring country of pakistan the dynamics have changed i think. Right now with u. S. President don and i dont see any pressure from the americans on parks and yet you dont see any talk of not seen action not mr potter how difficult is it to create consensus can you have so many say calders in this Peace Process test become more difficult over the last seven years definitely i agree with president carter. That a lot of outside powers im playing into that conflict its a its a proxy battle field you know you have the conflict between iran and saudi arabia you have the conflict between russia and nato you have of course the conflict between india and pakistan and also india with china now a new conflict plays into it its qatar on the one hand and saudi arabia and the emirates on the other hand its a very very complex conflict and the more complicated the gets the. More difficult it will be to solve it but one remark on present. Statement i think the americans putting in a lot of pressure on pakistan these days they have withdrawn their first suspended to military aid the putting him as above we are putting diplomatic pressure on power so i must start i went to pakistan three times and in the last year i talked to not only the civilian government which was a her main but its of course also the military leadership which is we have the power and the country have to face that you know and were talking a lot we are pressurizing them but for pakistan afghanistan is a strategic. Issue you know these are the india the Us Afghanistan all terrorist groups in afghanistan as a bargaining chip as a leverage against india so that their star will end this program here i want to thank my guests for being here for taking their time for travelling to bonn and being a part of the Global Media Forum thank you so much thank you very much thank. You thank you thank you thank you thank you and also thank you to our viewers thank you you. Thank. Move. Into the conflict zone Tim Sebastian afghanistan is fighting on many different fronts these days not just with the militants but also against human rights abuses and massive corruption charges this week here in london is Abdullah Abdullah his countrys chief executive why is there so much disunity in what is supposed to be a unity government complex the food. Movement the food. Climate change. Waste. Pollution. Isnt it time for good news eco and africa people and projects that are changing our fire meant for the better. Its up to us to make a difference lets inspire each other. He could be environment magazine. Long d w. Earth playing at home the tunes of species play a home worth saving. Given those are big changes and most start with small steps but the ideas tell stories of creative people and innovative projects around the world players like players used british solutions and a force to show. Interactive content teaching the next generation doesnt want to touch it. It comes in all channels available to inspire people to take action and most of turning to doing something here for the next generation the idea is for the environment series of global three thousand on t. W. And online yeah. I think one day this war will be considered cruel and unjust war. And certainly all citizens of ukraine every man woman and child will be friend their homeland is the enemy invades. No one wants russia here dont need to nuke which is the. Rebel against global news that matters. D. W. Made for mines. Leg. Length. Does it. In the twenty thousand football world cup kicks in Moscow Russia is expecting up to a million foreign visitors. Willing to look past the politics and focus on the pitch the latest from moscow also coming up. Our illuminated in green to mark a year since an inferno killed seventy one people downing street and other london landmarks are paying tribute to the shocking scale of the tragedy. And