Inventors entrepreneurs and high Tech Professionals talk about their visions successes and day to day business differences. Its. She says you know everyone should. Be seasoned now from tradition for. Digital africa starts december twelfth to w. Hello and welcome to quadriga it is a fateful week for britain with just twenty weeks to go until the brics that deadline and especially e. U. Summit looming this weekend the u. K. And the e. U. Finally announced last week that theyve reached a Draft Agreement but Prime Minister theresa may is facing
a storm of protest at home most especially within her own party in the hours after the deal was announced several of her own ministers resigned m. P. s threatened to bring down the government parliamentary debate verged on the striper us may defends the deal with it. Especially as you sum it to this coming sunday is supposed to seal the deal but its unclear that may close on it at home. That Battle For Britain thats our topic and guests it is a pleasure to welcome Alex Forrest Fighting shes a recorder and a former westminster Political Correspondent she says too many british politicians have seen brecks it as a battle against a european empire in which the plucky brits will triumph the reality is very different and its now hard to see if there will be any winners at all and its a pleasure to welcome alan posner back to the show he is a german british author who writes for. For the german newspaper to belt and he
says it is a lose lose the deal is bad but no deal would be worse. And finally great to have john worth on the show he is a british blogger a Principal Adviser and member of the green party he says no one likes mays deal in britain leaving the e. U. With no deal is not an option either either for the u. K. Nor for the e. U. So better a second referendum and you know perhaps it. So let me start out by asking you alex you say there are no winners john says better no breaks it at all would you say those sentiments are widely shared by people at home in the u. K. No i dont think that they are i think that there are certainly more people who are coming round to the ideas that bracks it has clearly not been as straightforward as it was supposed to be and as it was promised to pay and that there are a lot of possibilities that it could all go very very wrong for the u. K. But to say that this is that the whole of the u. K. Is coming round to this idea is not true its still very very divided both politically also across the country i can say for myself from my own Point Of View even within families its still very divided there are people who are who would like to stay within the e. U. And are very anti brecks it and there are people who are absolutely gung ho that the u. K. Is going to brics it well impose their you say the deal is lose lose that opinion is shared by many people who look at the economic implications of brics it but the fact is that the single Biggest Issue for many people who voted to leave was immigration and doesnt this current Withdrawal Arrangement that is on the table actually deliver at least in part on that. Yes i mean if britain remains
in a Customs Union with the e. U. Is the deal. Which is part of the deal but is out of the Common Market out of the which which entails the Free Movement of people then obviously youre going to have less poles for instance going back and forth between britain and poland and less other europeans coming in and that was a big big big theme but. Thats why i say this the. I mean. If its such a big problem to have a Polish Plumber or a polish bomb a den then youre going to be happy about this deal i really dont think that on reflection the english people who was the english not the british as a whole who vote who were in favor of bricks it. Thats not really is that the big problem is its not as if Polish Plumbers are taking jobs away from british promise a polish bombings of taking the jobs away from and in fact when there was a crisis a while back the poles went back home that showed how good it is to have an. Internal market thats actually breathing as the e. U. Does that but look yes this deal delivers on that so may ought to be able to sell it but she but she wont but lets leave that to later. React to that if you like but id also like to ask you about your Opening Statements raising the possibility of a second referendum and to the u. K. In that case maybe staying in the e. U. After all youre not alone in this were hearing a lot of calls for a second referendum were hearing more and more people even theresa may saying look if this deal breaks down well maybe there will be no breaks it at all or new new words coming from her but as i understand it you are simultaneously applying for german citizenship so do you really believe in that possibility. I cant count on that i have to separate my own personal situation from what i think about the political analysis im applying to become german because my own personal future is here im quite at home in berlin and therefore im im im i come to terms of which was becoming german in terms of the politics of it i think the second referendum is
the least by an outcome i dont positively welcome such a thing because such a referendum very divisive and very very difficult and the time is short but look at the alternatives all of the alternatives of us leaving without a deal is disastrous for the british economy to resume a steel pleases no one the Labor Policy Will in any case vote against whatever is put forward by the conservatives and even even treason may. Own party doesnt like what shes negotiated so out of that situation i see no way forward other than to essentially say westminster is blogs its put this issue back to the people in a second referendum this time britain might actually know what leave means because previous the previous time we didnt know what leave wouldnt now we know we know we roughly want to reason mays deal looks like you put that back to the people i fear how such campaign would go it would be very emotional very negative and so thats why i say its the least worst option but its
a possible option wouldnt absolutely everything depend on the phrasing of that referendum and how leave you say everybody would know what leave means even after over two years of negotiations it is hard to discern what leaf means frankly where the question is would it be the to resume a proposal of how to leave which you can at least work out roughly how that would work but ultimately there are other people who are making of the evolved humans so there is even been the question re should you have a three option referendum and the nightmare that would cause where you have the trees may deal no deal you crashing out without an arrangement brussels and remain but how would you organise such a thing and would that be a actually possible to organize a referendum in that way but these are the questions which people are posing themselves in britain and we are going to come back to the second referendum idea perhaps a bit later but let me ask all of you for a straight up and down a yes or no answer on this point given what the majority voted for in its original referendum nearly two and a half years ago isnt this deal thats on the table right now almost as good as
its going to get i think it is as good as its going to get i cannot really see what else to reason they could have got because because of island you know the right and well come back to that in a moment the same opinion. Im a slightly different opinion because there was a law in the labor party is used that no one in the referendum voted to make themselves poor and this vote on the of this deal will make britain economically poorer because it takes britain out of the single ball thats my Immigration Point is that really the thing that people were so centrally concerned about alex one sentence on our land if you would because i want to look at tourism is dilemma in more detail but just one sentence on where that problem with our long lies bearing in mind that many of our viewers are not as acquainted with all the details of this as some of us may be so the United Kingdom which is Great Britain and Northern Ireland thats something that people often make a mistake Northern Ireland is joined to the Republic Of Ireland and the republic of
ireland is obviously in the e. U. And will stay in the e. U. Northern ireland will leave the e. U. Along with the rest of britain and that is the problem because if this socalled hard border between the north and the Republic Of Ireland a big deal also because of the the former troubles that theyve had within that country and they do not want in any way to threaten the Peace Process that was agreed twenty years ago so its very very sensitive right and to resume a has the do you p. C. Northern irish party breathing down essentially her neck so were going to look at that in a little more detail lets take a look now at what Prime Minister may is facing in the way of opposition within her own ranks. Fabrics it is frex it wrecks it means bricks it and were going to make a success of it im very clear breaks it does mean that when theresa may became Prime Minister in twenty six b. She quickly adopted the credo of divorcing the u. K. From the e. U. Formally opposed to bricks and she said she wanted to create the best deal possible for Great Britain to better negotiate with and to keep the hardliners in check she saw stronger backing with a Snap General Election she had miscalculated and lost the conservative Majority Calls for her resignation rose. Grex it for exit but theresa may pushed on a miscalculated again when she underestimated just how hard the e. U. Would negotiate her concessions to brussels outrage there was talk of a vote of no confidence she lost a number of key ministers including the brics that state secretary dominic robb yet still be dissuaded this is a deal which does deliver that which is in the National Interest and im i going to see this through yes thank you to resign me an iron lady or a tragic figure. John interestingly enough may receive some grudging
tributes this week even from her critics how do you see her as a historical figure what will the History Books write i think she will be presented as a Prime Minister trying to do the best in a very very difficult situation leading a divided party where she has been trying to balance what the party needs on one hand and what she thinks the country could manage to live with on the other hand its not a job for votes anyone. That you wish on anyone its very very tough ultimately i think she will probably because i still think rice will fail i think she will probably go down as the Prime Minister who brought great sense of failure. But ultimately is there anything else she could do than the way that shes behaving at the moment shes actually playing quite a tactically good game in the Conservative Party shes balancing the pragmatist on one hand and the brakes radicals on the other and shes toeing a middle line between those groups and so i think shes actually making
a reasonably good effort out of a very very difficult situation balance dealing with terrorism a what would you say is the biggest mistake shes made. The biggest mistake she made was switching from being. A remain convinced from a nod to suddenly saying breaks it means brooks that i mean who believes whatever she does shes got this stain on her character as has the whole almost the whole british Political Class they never believed in i mean the responsible people never believed in bricks and now this suddenly going on and by the way if you had your new referendum what would what would be all these politicians save flip flopped one way or the other i mean the whole Political Class that includes mrs made. The decision not convincing because if you flip flop no one knows what you mean so if you says breaks it means breaks it what does she mean by breaks it means breaks it i think shes just shes a political im not going to use the word. I think is interesting with theresa may
because she. Became Prime Minister she was Home Secretary and she was always i was just centuries the interior so yes of interior and i was in westminster as Political Correspondent and so i had dealings with all these departments and her department was very interesting because shes shes a very shy or quiet politician and she was she had these two attack dogs who looked off to her and prevented people from really getting to hurt too much so it was a very difficult department to penetrate at the time she was there she did campaign to remain in the e. U. But she was a very reluctant campaigner she did not particularly want to side with the likes of David Cameron really came out in favor of remained towards the very end when she realized what the what could happen over security if we if the u. K. Obviously doesnt have the same access so i think its you have to be careful when
you say that shes going from remain to bricks and i think she was always a reluctant remain a bit shes completely shes clearly not a brick sitting here and is trying to make the best of a very very bad see. To ation i would love to spend the entire rest of this program talking about whether its nish cameron that goes down in history thats the true villain of this piece but yes i think in in looking at what teresa mayes biggest mistakes might have been i would certainly put this Strange Alliance with the d u p the party that i mentioned earlier high up on the list because in many ways it has brought that irish dilemma to the fore and in some ways created a situation a double bind situation that is almost impossible to solve can you just say a word or two about that john and whether whether you see it that way i do see that as highly problematic her relationship with the do you pete but it might ultimately mean that the irish issue actually could get solved and breaks it in a certain way the irish question is much more important now than it would have been
have the d. U. P. A. Not been in alliance with because of the concern about a hard border that would run through the heart of ireland and thereby once again divide ireland possibly even leading to violate rights but the question is alternately way do you draw that hard border do you draw between Northern Ireland in the Republic Of Ireland or do you draw it in the irish sea and do not draw a border talking those are essentially your options and as a result of the do you piece saying under no circumstances should north up more than others be treated differently than the rest of the u. K. It is unacceptable that that border should essentially be in the irish sea as a result of that and that this push to resume a towards a slightly more pragmatic breaks a position by keeping the the whole of the u. K. Temporarily at least in the Customs Union so ultimately to resume as brets it is a little bit more pragmatic ultimately as a result of the role that the d. U. P. A. Has played now you wouldnt actually think that from that the hardline vocabulary being used by the do you pay but ultimately the do you push britain towards
a slightly more pragmatic brakes solution than would otherwise have been the case but that is part of what the dregs the tears the hard line exit. Supporters most hate about this deal theyre worried that this temporary thaw on iowa namely by Keeping Britain in the Customs Union temporarily could become a long Term Solution where the u. K. Has the worst of all possible worlds namely its still part of the e. U. But it doesnt even have a voice exactly and theyre right of course that i mean that whats going to happen if cooler heads prevail if may gets a deal through which is by no means why if she got a deal through its the only possible situation because this is its it is as you say using these quotation marks a temporary solution for britain to stay in the Customs Union but for britain to exit is not longer within westminsters power its going to be decided by european
judges as well as the british as a british side is going to be a if the if the if the e. U. Says no you cant leave the Customs Union then they crash out then you have the same situation the trying to avoid now further down the line so i think the. If the if money gets a deal through that means britain stays in the Customs Union indefinitely and i think the fact that the brics it is a so angry and concerned about Northern Ireland this irish border. Particular staying in the Customs Union is because come so the Customs Union this whole idea wouldnt actually kick in until after that transition period which is where were sort of in a bit of a fudge until december twenty twenty it could of course be extended as has possibly been offered by kicking the can down the can down the road and i think the point is that the brics it is also why read now that actually theyre not going to be able to agree this Free Trade Agreement with the e. U. Off to that finish that thats why theyre worried that this backstop that is Customs Union idea is going to happen and they wont behave to ever get out of it so they will effectively stay in the e. U. Alex you say you as a west mr Political Correspondent knew a lot of these figures we often perceive these hardcore brought to tears whether its Boris Johnson or the others that whom we saw in the piece as essentially acting on some sort of personal opportunistic basis is that right or is it too simple id say that some of them genuinely believe that everything about the e. U. Is wrong and they are ideologically opposed to it and i can name various ministers who i have spoken to over the years who really really dislike the e. U. And think that the u. K. Needs itself into a need to get out there are others and i would say Boris Johnson is a good example of an opportunist because actually you may remember a couple of years ago he wrote an article for one of the english newspapers the
daily telegraph in which he said actually im im going to back brics it but it also written The Other Side which also goes out and said he wasnt even clear and he has taken the chosen the path to be a brick city and to lead from the front but i. Im not convinced and just look at what happened to his brother who was in the government until two weeks ago Jerry Johnson he quits his Government Role saying that he not only opposes brecks it but he wants that to be a second referendum so even within Boris Johnsons own family it is very divided before we take a look at where it all goes from here lets take a look at the e. U. Side in all of this alex just reminded us that the brics to tears say everything about the e. U. Is wrong from the start the European Union has made it clear that certain core e. U. Principles like the link between Free Movement of goods and Free Movement of labor were non negotiable nonetheless e. U. Leaders say that the deal thats now on the table does reflect concessions on both
sides lets take a look. I needed it but in a new lease better than no deal i think that is the order of the day when we have to advertise that the deal on the table now is the best of the possible deal usually the best i think theres no better option its put this crazy back to work so the accomplice bit off the Brick City Compromise currently on the table is truly guster called a compromise on both sides of make concessions and i hope that everyone deals with it responsibly now which will be and we are in fact at the decisive moment in this process no one no one should lose sight of the process the progress that we have been achieved dressers needed longer the u. S. Prepared for a final deal with the United Kingdom in november. We also prepared for the road use another. Cup of coffee our best. Friend over it some of you. Alan a number of European Union leaders made it clear from the start that they thought we need to make an example of britain in order to prevent other countries from going down the same path from trying to leave the e. U. If that tough negotiating stance that has been taken wants to resist man made efforts to get by and Wont Europeans also pay a price. We will pay of prizes europeans anyway whatever happens because breaks it is just a lose lose situation i think the European Union has as negotiated very carefully. To get britain within the Customs Union but out of the of the common law Common Markets no Free Movement of people thats what people worried about in britain you said it in your opening question to me so european give union is given may some things you can negotiate on its not their fault that shes not going be able to
get it through parliament or. John i asked earlier about mays biggest mistake what about the e. U. s what about brussels biggest mistake i think the do European Union side has maybe been a bit slow to communicate its interests in this negotiation. To try to explain to the British Population why theyre behaving in that way and i think also the e. U. Sides if you did ole timidly warmed true trying to find a way of Keeping Britain close to the European Union in some way the sometimes its tone has been a little bit rude children a little bit harsh but maybe the European Union has to do that because its respecting its own interests looking backwards now i think the European Union i agree with alan as negotiated this extremely well has stood united is well prepared at michoud body has been an extremely professional go shows that so much of European Union side overall i must say has performed above my expectations in this negotiation so full alex merkel has said shes staying away from the summit on
sunday if theres any sign that other countries are looking for last minute tweaking on this deal and by that she does not mean only britain what do you think are we actually going to see that summit take place in an orderly fashion yes i think it will take place because i think that the are going to persuade spain and france and the other countries who are concerned about whats going to happen in the future with their talk about talking about Fishing Rights because at the moment thats not included in this dale and they were theyre not going to have access to british waters spain seventy bring up gibraltar which by the way was always an issue which breaks it is a a no i wasnt mentioned before when Northern Ireland was so i think that there are very big real issues but i still think its going to go ahead on sunday and they will Reach Agreement because the twenty seven have been united well and we heard you saying in that report just now that the e. U. Is prepared for a disorderly no exit no deal breaks it do you think it really is. No i think
thats posturing just like by the way the hard line was was was posturing its for certain sections of the European Public which which we should want to be and is also for britain of course hes saying ok you do it well see what happens i dont think europe is prepared but it should it should prepare my suggestion would be to say ok go well keep still behave as if the Customs Union was in place you can still export to us and you can come back to this deal if you want to. Its up to you to push the You Know Push the responsibility firmly towards the brits but the question is when does the pain kick in and where does the pain taking and see if there are cures of trucks lining up in dover. Or this theres a pharmaceutical that type of thing or or no legal arrangement to allow the planes to fly for example or is if with britain is outside of the European Aviation safety
area those kind of things that pressure will come to bear much more quickly on the u. K. Side the mccombs there on the European Union side will be running out of drugs and speaking of pain last question to all of you with a request for a very short answer or title as does the Battle For Britain how will britain be different five years from now how will you u. K. Relations be different five years from now alex Oh My Goodness its so depends where the bracks it happens if it does happen the u. K. Is going to be desperately trying to get a Free Trade Agreement with the e. U. And get access to everything it has at the moment and its going to be extremely difficult it breaks it doesnt happen. I know what has to happen it has to happen is that the west has to sit together and you know whatever it takes and the west means present European Union president of the states it doesnt look like that at the moment thats what we have to concentrate minds of. Britain five years from now is still going to be a politically very divided and complicated place looking to a certain set of even words. I do think however that britain put to use multiple. Its easy to do dr branson doesnt practice im not still calls thank you very much to all of you for being with us and thanks to all of you out there for just saying for joining and cesar. Move. Move move. Move. Move move. Move. Move. Move. Move move. Move. Move. Move. Move. Move. Move move move. From the suburbs of paris. From the forward line. Sebastian i mean. The french Strongman Screenplay the years later. Is this like
a rising star. This is g w news lawyer from berlin to bring in our correspondent Ophelia Harms or birdies and joins us from from Rio De Janeiro were going to find out what happened with me think of a correspondent sometimes its not and we do have some of Breaking News coming into us now what about the perspective closer of w. News thank you for joining us. Here whats coming up on the closely so Much Movement that the police need to face the. Sentence hold the fear that this country take a look at all that means for the taking of course. Going to sleep
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nov twenty fifth on. This is g. W. News coming to you live from berlin gunmen stormed the chinese consulate in the pakistani City Of Karachi an intense hour long shootout left old three gunmen dead but none of the chinese diplomats and stop at the consulate for her also coming up with Prime Minister theresa may tells parliament shes got the best possible divorce deal from the e. U. But spains Prime Minister is pushing negotiations right up to the wire over