Dot com tanks. Roam the vatican in recent years the Catholic Church has been rocked by a series of scandals relating to sexual abuse with new victims continually coming forward now a previously overlooked dimension is also coming to light the victims include nuns among them was doris wagner as a young woman she joined a religious order recognized by the pope after eight years there she was emotionally and physically broken and left. Is good for this woman there have been cases of people killing themselves for the from people who have been sick for the rest of their lives or mentioned and people who never escaped this system of abuse. Today doris wagner is a selfconfident working mother and wife since subsequently graduating in theology shes written a number of books and is currently working on her doctoral thesis in philosophy but she needed years to find the strength to talk about her time in the religious order her twenty fourteen autobiography described how she was subjected to sexual and spiritual abuse she was given the Cold Shoulder by Senior Church dignitaries but doris did not relent and became active as seen here in rome in december twenty eighth seen at a conference with fellow victims what she wants is not revenge but to warn others. A few weeks ago she received an email sent by none other than cardinal kristoff churn born himself apparently it was his get this but anyone could have written that mail so i was very skeptical but i talked to him on the phone that same day for over an hour it really was Cardinal Sean bell on which surprised me them as it still does today but he actually took an interest that he was prepared to talk to me and even meet me in person on the head its a mere typhon that was the first time i had experienced anything like that in the wonders of the. So she agreed viennas cardinal cost of gone is one of the Catholic Churches most important representatives hes also one of the most prominent supporters of the reformist line taken by pope francis. He had as i was i can do that face a cardinal and a greater conversation one to one and it feels like something i have to do which is give more though not for myself im doing and on behalf of the many others who are unable to do it themselves. It was an Unprecedented Development one of the most important cardinals in the Catholic Church and a victim of abuse agreed to talk openly with each other with cameras running and on neutral ground the idea was for them to spend an entire day in the studio of a Public Television broadcaster talking without any reservations about their respective experiences and thoughts. Their agenda would focus on sexualized violence and the misuse of power by priests while also addressing the future of the church so now. Is in many years there always a bit rebellious. And. Yes. There so who sits where. I really dont mind. So. Is it so were facing each other and it is right in our anger inside its hard to put into words but id like to emphasize how grateful i am to you thought that. I have huge respect for you being willing to have this conversation take to see to this was part and. Then im simply grateful that we have this opportunity to speak to each other so placing if i may have as i was going out there will be able to talk to each other today about what youve experienced and what ive experienced it does foresee a leap tom the first and how we are to view the Current Situation if you if youre the broader issue of abusive conduct. Interviews in the church and also want to cite a course in people. This boy his father has been. Played in a command i joined my order with the conviction that my superiors but represent the position of god for me this infinitely had a mission from the church in a religious order recognized by the church. And god had me in disagreement and god assigned me to this order before me so whatever they demand of me comes from him and is therefore good even where i didnt understand it at first but as i believe that helped us out of where he was so thats why i got that that was my conviction it was because of the faith id grown up with him which had always worked until the moment when a priest visited me in my rooms another stone took my clothes off and thats all that on it. And then raped me to post thats when i knew it no longer made any sense to smack its clear that it cannot be from god as kind absolutely not what common discussion does and this is also slawson. And thats had to have an out and at the same time i also knew that from my perspective i always acted in the courts with the rules i did everything to prevent that so why did god permit their scientists or. Was it a certain mention besets had has Something Else ive not told many people about is my reaction after being wrecked my first impulse was that i couldnt possibly ever tell anyone thats kind of mean wasnt even the most important thing is that nobody finds out its Human Affairs otherwise people would start to have doubts in the church its rife i have to i was a victim of that pulls and i think a lot of victims have that same initial impulse one that those responsible also have when you tell them about those feelings it is a vital thing as that nothing happens to the church and people feel that way because the church is the home and no one wants to lose their home and much of the pain to stand it when youre constantly being denigrated because youre nothing to peace needs on one for us as men above all whats always distressing when talking to victims of abuse you can see it is the code of silence we have dont you dare tell him who it is and all the connotations that come with that is its these later in particular unfortunately with priests who are given religious connotations of history for you know be condemned by god and punished by god off youll end up in Elephant Rock and so in the hood that they go into an altar cover up their own crimes on the agony of the day to second if a patients old selfish. Was saying Steve Inskeep the trial has been the Mother Church of the archdiocese of vienna since the fifteenth century. And for the last twenty years cardinal cost option bone has been the archbishop his word carries weight in rome too. He knows doris wagners books and holds her in great esteem. Just as he said please and hope. What ive read so far you know her first book and now her new one about spiritual abuse this is so intelligent right so and so nuanced. And doesnt i should have put it. He said emanate from a wish for vengeance to host instead it emanates from extreme dismay and beats although from genuine concern he told me and i believe that our conversation can be a very fruitful one for us and. Abuse is an issue that has been on coastal shown bones mind for many years. The previous archbishop of vienna cardinal hans hammond had molested pupils at a boys seminary a huge scandal in austria in the one nine hundred ninety s. At the time sure one was an auxiliary bishop. At first he loyally took the side of his superior. Man yes to hear this coming my initial reaction was i cant believe it on television that same evening i was asked to come at once and i said such an accusation was unfathomable this and reminded me of the nazi era and priests being accused of almost sexuality is it well my priest or two days later i had to make a statement apologizing for that statement so that i could be at the most. I mean actually all of it does to see a few things here i saw my tour to get weve got us to see this is it how was it for you realizing you been mistaken because a lot of people dont manage to make that step i dont mean to admit that it is something they have been unable to imagine and now accept that it was true. Is gaap. Or there were rumors about cardinal ground which were completely new to me as you have that the feds have been if i dont know perhaps im naive i have no knowledge of the rumors still for me it is somewhat came as a complete surprise to me. That i didnt know that he was quirky and that he liked to touch up his charges. When he talking more convinced me where the witnesses kept on he said by the time the issue resurfaced of asian lets be sure i was archbishop and witnesses came to me to tell their story and she did say when the hell he does it is she and i believe the stories does his family had if he weekend they will hear this is i want to hear their side to help and talk. I know that talking it seems to me that one of the pathways leading to abusive behavior. And it is a kind of. Attraction towards bush when we are younger individuals he who so and amish almost really trigger a mixture of vulnerability he loves and needing and receiving help. Then turns into abuse because it all meant. Well done. To keep means in this poll. Readers p. Who locations for two near my mind are difficult to explain or understand how that works on a psychological level he and i have the impression that this is how it worked with my predecessor for example to near got their own model you have to read resigned i once had a conversation with him. In which i asked him directly be like you fuck. And there was a moment when a crack opened and then it was shot again and really only the muscle for shot with a go here and see that convinced a lot of people call her friends the. Feeling and for who but side come. This is not so the gun violence in the here and events in the complex its an incredibly complex issue of course and needs to be investigated on a multidisciplinary level for she then disappear just look that was about as most ardent but i do believe you can say that there is a very simple reason or principle that enables abuse im fine corn at them is part of the clift its about an imbalance of powers and for all of us as soon as there isnt an equal standing in a relationship but it become susceptible to abuse and up its young but with a person with a greater power overrides the other person in this pocket thats the part theyre mia not so sure about and then have access. This is one place given east laws this imbalance is certainly one of the roots of the abuse the dismissible. The police the sacred untouchable. Theyre going to figure of authority. Venti says and with that prevailing image of the priest. Is that theres always a danger of authoritarianism. Used in the if hastert determines everything out of this and is able to indulge themselves far more than the others. As the powers he met lay stuff as the under. Sesi burden are sad and so he had also say that the ordination of a priest does not involve some mysterious transformation of and what a name this is isnt any in teams now know so i think Thomas Aquinas referred to priests serving the people of god beans. Fear there will always be misconduct. Or ever there are human beings there will also be misconduct will mention seen. If it does in fact that something were bound to come back to him is he not often of course there are structures and systems that facilitate abuse the steam in. The midst of. It can sting. Rome the center of faith for over one billion catholic christians. For the priests and members of religious orders the day ends as it begins with prayers. As it did back then for doris magna the daughter of deeply religious working class parents in bavaria shortly after finishing high school she joined a catholic order and was later sent to rome. The religious order she belonged to had a major center here. Among its more influential benefactors was use of hot singer then cardinal later Pope Benedict and he made a number of visits to the orders premises in rome. Doris wagner would take care of guests often her duties would include working in the kitchen from dawn until late at night. It happened yeah time it puts no good musician and i spent years cleaning and peeling vegetables and washing plates which is in any case true for a lot of nurses says theres the stereotype of all role model finance thought being permanently available for everything while not wanting to be anything themselves and instead giving themselves completely guns all of them and off and even when youre suffering like smile and say but dont say anything ever what the men and. Thats an awful images and i have to admit i also found it fascinating because its quite a challenge most of us and not everyone is just able to surrender themselves of us about its an unbelievable trap once you fall into it theres no way out but at the moment where you can say hang on im someone to i have talents let me study less that moment is not coming back they were meant for and so as i can cope with where on. I did so unnecessary when i think about all unknowns and there are certain orders where this is the case why shouldnt they be able to join them and do their own projects and studies or make their own friends. Find out why should i have the same Self Determination and courage for ireland thats the main point and something that appeals prevents why shouldnt women be on equal terms with men in the church and their on. The was he as he described it easy to see what youre describing in relation to this does this inequality. Is an ancient sin in the church. In the. Somebody has been the old one. And i can remember often hearing. Derogatory remarks from the padres about the nuns failing and so iraq in torrance well perhaps it was meant more ironically than when i went to take confession from the nuns and would talk about notching up sister. Says yes nuns are to serve has been saving im familiar with the situation of say a three indian sisters in the Bishops Office his face them. And we have a very sound a Close Knit Group of heads he can mange of but i know that this is not the model for the few guys. As he staged a socalled smart theyll be following the question of women is one of the major issues of our time on tough im going to be convinced of that. The end that the entire subject of abuse. Of us is all the commotion and change it will bring its view will put the question of women in the church in a new light noir. In and in that noise which. Is late january twenty nine thousand since Steve Inskeep theatre all in vienna is hosting evening prayers to commemorate the world day for consecrated life. Several hundred members of religious orders and other Church Communities have gathered to renew their vows many of them are young women. Gave. Us. Was. They all expected to obey the sixth commandment thou shalt not commit adultery extramarital sexual relations are therefore not permitted catholic priests as well as monks and nuns are prohibited from marrying any sexual act or relationship is a such a sin for them today just as it was centuries ago. As. When i was a teenager and hes a priest for mine had high regard. Home made and rancid towards me. And wanted to be healthy he wanted to kiss me on the lips. Good sit down cup thank god he didnt make a direct attempted. Does but he hinted at it at this the ask the kiss of peace or thank god i didnt respond and. As. He helped us. In be nice to get it now was. It helped me but it was not as if it were a shock for me look it up is and it was a confusing experience of the file but we arent talking about the nine hundred fifty theory on this lets go home that. This was. Just the way certain priests priestly his safety trying to introduce sexual and lightnings to the youngsters and you can. Meet their needs some very bizarre details to. So. Your phone beliefs. Such as this are so high gini advice and Structural Design genital hygiene for example of aids and for that fifty game it. Usually stay late so basically. Its nice to have month and this was not somebody i would have considered to be a bad priest this fall had these hit the that was kind of how things were. On the interstate it was worse here and i think that whats behind any of these is something thats not been addressed adequately since your own and obsession with the sixth commandment. This. Leaves you in confession was masturbation among boys. Most of it is you have to do confession for every instance. In this case ochterlony for us but then we know everything thats been said about what happens when you masturbate. Why does still ok later once i become a theologians did this in i realized that the manuals on moral theology contained excessive interpretations of the sixth commandment to. Be linked in order to gain and yes me theres the famous iran a miss no again a jesuit and his manual of moral theology comprising three volumes is the second exclusively about the sixth commandment it own theology students used to joke about interpreting it as per se this man does so whats one of the feelies income. Is in the. Gulf looking back what are ultimately the broader roots of abuse in the church. Something happened there that im not in a position to analyze. Yeah thats so im not an easy and he in the law could mean. And is common but one thing you can say. There is this tendency to treat the sixth commandment in a far too extensive manner. As escapees as if the seventy fifth in the eighth commandments didnt exist. Also there is an imbalance in moral theology with its extreme focus and almost exclusive focus on the subject. We didnt pay much if i counsel for it was quite refreshing to hear what a female expert said at the bishops are not on the family expand this in more detail my lord bishops please first take a look into the living room that is not the bedroom or. In shaft see why wasnt the churches social doctrine given the appropriate emphasis these sorts jali that you need into him to see. The resulting impressions of us that the church was something primarily about the sixth commandment that was the experience of a lot of young people in my youth eventually and that is simply not healthy or does the emphasis was on sexual acts thats not on standpoints of. The six. Of them in the league. Doris wagner spent several years in rome at the branch of her order little by little the young nun felt she was losing control over her life and becoming a cog in a strictly hierarchical system. Photos from a brochure documenting the day of her vows in november two thousand and seven. Today she makes grave accusations that she was sexually abused by a priest in a convent in rome not far from the vatican repeatedly. Another priest she says made sexual advances on her in the confessional. During a ceremony to mark may devotions at the apostolate palace the popes residence she considered throwing herself off the terrace to her death. Nobody outside the order learned of what had happened. She also kept her family in the dark. Located right next to st Peters Square are the headquarters of one of the most prominent institutions of the roman curia the congregation for the doctrine of the faith. This was the work place of a priest who doris wagner accuses of having made sexual advances on her the church launched an investigation finally in late january twenty nine thousand the priest resigned without acknowledging any wrongdoing. Right about whats by me of us but stone people because it means so much to me i would like to hear you Say Something i have yet to hear from anyone in the church from anyone and a position of responsibility doesnt mean that you believe me himself i have not told my story so often to so many people that i went to the police not once did anyone of my order say to me we believe you and that should never have been allowed to happen could you say that to me. Yup seen in four until i didnt say that you were earlier you know people who might have read your book. And i believe what you say. Syverson does im. A fan i know that the head of the congregation for the doctrine of the faith resigned last monday. That i have had one of gods harvard swan so look at its been ten years since he solicited during confession then me hes quite senior and sing out of here in a bite of a kind that i really like inundated with inquiries from the media of the last few days asking me to comment and wanting to know whether i now feel any satisfaction or what have you or what is it that he had skin oak tall and thin the lot of us i want to have in the market i told all of them that of course that comes as a relief. But on the other hand i dont think youll think why now and why only now on our. Way is the smirk left us so fast how can it be that the vatican releases a statement on his resignation in which he denies having done anything more than law and goes on to threaten potential legal action ahead of the star what do you make of that. He has had since he doesnt. Go with us does come with a simple comment id say only he can come in on that youre as orkut is i read it to. Thank you lisa he has his conscience and most as for only has to be accountable for what he says obviously just as you are accountable for what youve said. And think and i think that you thank god he does do you see there is this courts done for last resort it will its one that is ultimately incorruptible. Inlets because we can of course be mistaken with our conscious ones are conditioned give his ultimately it is a question of conscience good and. A little he says and it can be since fog. Is hard to pass i dont even know anymore whether i should interpret it as Divine Providence or an intervention by god in retrospect. But i do know that if i had not met my husband a few months after this terrible experience i would no longer be alive today and bigness where i thought him swam leaving ive gotten to the point where i thought. No that in poker comp and wish to have a night and then if this is possible and if this logic that has carried my life until now is not truth or if god permits us venkat and then demands that i remain silent in order to protect the church as a whole if that is god then i do not wish to serve that god and i do not have to serve this god well it isnt god it no longer makes any sense if this was not honest because after all what kind of church is this where people have to suffer in order to serve the church in their mention lighting was no indication its opinion. After leaving her order it became apparent to doris wagner that countless other nuns had suffered a similar fate. Wildebeest of that prophetic i wanted to know if there were any other cases or if there had been any investigations shockey and then i was hugely shocked especially when i came across the testimony of more of donahue the four who. In fact i was doubly shocked this was firstly because those reports are so awful i disapproved is that theyre actually convents where bishop st sisters like prostitutes and have been summoned to them by the mother superior would be sure fish best and repository possible it and sisters who contract aids or forced to have abortions. Expressed sunday this is the. So its win win for that and especially this case of a sister who died while having an abortion rests with the perpetrator then officiating at her requiem mass attack the hat off to sleep its so terrible for her this is socialism. And i was doubly shocked not just because these cases are so terrible writers seem to have a hapless fight but also because i came across these cases in two thousand and thirteen fourteen and theyd already been reported in the New York Times back in two thousand one irons and i thought why didnt anybody care under the home had just met and yet. Cardinal shinbone will be among those participating in the summit on abuse in rome at the invitation of pope francis the expectations are huge but cardinal shinbone is on the skeptical side. Does first see its pups funks hes course in Beethoven Francis summit as i will be present in my capacity as president of the austrian bishops conference here below me ive given it a lot of consideration as well firstly why hes waited so long and secondly why what is the point yes and what i personally envisage now is a common awareness of his fears the first prerequisite would implicate of mine that i can explain in light of my own story my own experience as you first need an awareness and this awareness of what is not there see theatre and got the knowledge. Ill quote from a cardinal from a Southern European country skiing. These concerns a nun who suffered severe abuse by a private. I tried to shake up the bishops in this country including the responsible bishops and the cardinals in this country but to no avail. This when no one was expelled from the congregation of what it was the commanche of the proletariat remains in office the lot these before him. After failing to achieve anything with the local church. But then i took up the case together with another patient. I think its. Beneath the show i wrote to Pope Benedict that hes to and he evidently received a letter. Basically he issued the instruction that this ister must be heard. And she was heard for two hours in the religious congregation and she was become me afterwards i received a letter saying the ordinary of the end is poorly informed. I talked to a cardinal from country in Southern Europe about the case. And it was not recently confronted him with what he said. He had been. There was a good few years ago and benedict left office quite a while ago of course and if he doesnt think he said. Yes yes you were in the north including Pope Benedict. You have a different perspective to us in the sun and on the. Bigots for quite some who dont meet these and what so. I confronted him recently with what he said and he still refused to understand you fung fung. Fundies have a sombrero i love and thats something i expect from this gathering of all the president s of the bishops conferences from around the world for. For think it was primarily to be hearing speeches listening to testimony as does and as far as i understand it what the pope wants is for everyone to raj our common awareness of i mean combine in some way before censure of coleman had it not been your eminence then when you talk about this case of your confreres and him not understanding the issue of the years later albums do you believe that he would change his mind after a four day bishop summit in rome when he then understand it so that by no and as it has done firstly close it or do you believe that the bishops who are going there will emerge from the meeting somehow transformed this constant this is not a new issue after all for decades or at least the last ten years every bishop worldwide has been confronted with it first by it but isnt there more confident that this is and this statement from pope francis that people should not expect too much from the meeting and that its more about everyone now understanding that left a lot of us speechless and thinking well you know when will it happen today jeff and how much longer will we have to wait a while when it comes to these signatories who for years and decades have not been able and perhaps not willing to comprehend why is it that there is so much understanding for them in the church but almost none of us victims thats the whose lives have been destroyed or films up. There didnt say why me as a home ive been told repeatedly for example that people are grateful that im not angry and that its possible to talk to me and and i respect how well that its fortunate that i have that kind of personality like i kind of character and of course we all have reason to be angry you know on that but often the rioters affected denigrate it when theyre angry when they attack the church itself. Its so understandable if they want to. Compensation people immediately say theyre just after the money percy but they need the money because theyre often rendered im able to work and theyre sick but this is where is the understanding for the victims and why is pope francis now ahead of the bishops conference daring to ask the victims and the entire church to have understanding the dignitaries who have still not gotten the point one of which i just dont get it its appalling economy hermitage this is for me thats for. The stars this conch this is tricky here it is terrible going towards the both of us but still i can only hope that it will shake people up this is. Of the question is always whether the people will allow themselves to be shaken to their. If as i know to be honest i havent really been looking into the bishop summit at the end of february but i think what would be nice is if bishops were to actually approach the victims im join them on their protest marches down mash and offer to meet them and listen to what they have to say outside the audience or in the vatican as well as its and i will here and take to the streets with them and rome. And talk to them and actively ask to meet them and also pass on that message for the higher one to simply take notice who does have to say quite clearly as an individual bishop can i mean something to me that i dont want to lose you and as i want to know that youre ok that would be a powerful statement of the western mass there even our bishops planning to do Something Like that i dont know gets up a shit is of us plan and it faces the death of a versa so i dont either. But ill definitely be taking that message with me to the meeting in rome. How do you hope things will change you have to have hope dont you think he really gets i tend to say that german saying hope dies last is fundamentally wrong because hope never dies c. V. S. And thats its essence hope does not die the help and i really do have hope you blew your first book gave me a lot of hope if you because its being discussed. Is to be called if something is not being discussed and cant have an impact up call. Come here come east were going to. The intimidated and in secure none is long gone. A few weeks previously duras the wagner in her favorite cafe a place where she always knows that her dream of freedom and selfdetermination has finally come true shes now at peace with herself. Declan form of hope and i think the reason why im still alive today is that i experienced somebody loving me having my husband and a person thats a real person loving me thats what i mention and i think that is what victims need and something that the church as an institution could give victims this message that you belong to the church of you are the church and you have a home here to. Tell us what you know and well give it to you at his side they could answer hose and verse and i believe that can only be a future for the church if the church commits itself to that way of thinking at all levels because you see he doctrinal and legal and institutional structural inside whats a national. Of he said looking for the church has to say that is what we want to avoid and wherever the authoritarian logic the logic of subordination the logic that will ultimately resort to extreme measures is the desire in the church of god then we will discard it they can very up. Well then so firm under such because you talked about oh yes i have opie. Because i believe that this terrible suffering and all the injustice that has happened really one of the in the whole lack of understanding that they can lead to or healing process. And sports this which will hopefully also help to genuinely view the new the church. The family hobby and if i sometimes feel like an observer and i can only talk about the things ive experienced and the things i consider possible versus and join forces with the people who likewise see these opportunities. Which meant in mentioned hope in the hour this image hadnt seen but whether that actually happens or whether it does turn out to be a Human Organization in which a small number of individuals who take themselves incredibly seriously and protect their power against all reasonable consideration of others i dont know what legal and put under than i dont know how the story will play out well see what we did as he was scared of our events here. And hope pitiful how we can hope yes and it kind of my great hope is that the people who have suffered in the church will be able to find a good life for themselves and go to sleep and for that i can make a contribution every one of us can make a contribution. I think here. Prairie to me. Not everyone who loves books has to go insane. D. W. Literature list one hundred german must creeds. There are digital more years. For women for internet activists one mission. The battle for freedom and dignity. Courageous and determined they campaign for womens rights. And for peace. They mobilize against femicide for compulsory veils for. Their messages are spreading like on. Social medias critical critical to the global. Sense of smart cars along the line and on the streets our rights are not a problem for discussion. They are women more changing the world im reading. Digital. Starts marching on t w. This is daily news life from berlin a roman Catholic Church faces its problem with pain to follow priests pope francis is set to address the faithful as the end of an extraordinary summit on how the church has covered up sex abuse by clergy well have live coverage from the vatican. Also coming out as well as military dates back to attempts to bring humanity