Gullible welcome to conflict so thank you very much for having me here you told the interviewer last year we have abided by all our human rights a big ations this was clearly provably untrue wasnt it. It cannot be true but sometimes you depart from normal for reasons that has to be explained to living in a world of of turmoil around us neighboring countries with different problems you call it a departure the you when you called it repeated violations of civil and Political Rights incidents of harassment arrest torture and prolonged detention for Civil Society actors thats more than a departure isnt it cannot be a long detention can tell you there is not all show of this are prevented measures sometimes taken in order to ensure social security. Comes from the uns Human Rights Councils independent expert on sudan so one of you is not telling the truth you are so sure which one is which obviously are telling the truth but only accusing the other side of not telling the terrorists but not about you are by implication but sometimes envoy is exaggerated things for reasons that im not going to talk about and why would this one exaggerate thing hes from any such sorry state no not youre sorry maybe im not i meant to him many times here reflects the story sometimes of political opposition not the certainly the there are less but political opposition in our part of the world would like to undermine governments and this is an ordinary behavior not mistake on the over the years youve flown around the world smoothly and fluently denying all the accusations of human rights abuses that are directed at your government you criticize them as either liars or theyre fabricating or theyre exaggerating or whatever but seriously who do you think people are going to believe you with a president whos a fugitive from International Justice or respected human Rights Groups including the us and including groups from africa itself in fact if you compared groups with groups you would find that the majority not with what you have said. And the e. U. Summit you not me im not talking about numbers were doing quality here or you know some of the most respected want talking about your summit and you can never have any known and more respected than state leaders and ministers of Foreign Affairs of course n. G. O. S we respect them but sometimes they depart from normality and they need to prove the doing their job properly youve encountered plenty of condemnation from african countries just over a year ago in december twenty sixth in the African Commission on human and peoples rights im sure youre familiar with it they expressed serious concern about what they called the deteriorating human rights situation in through the republic of sudan in particular a constant harassment of human rights defenders by the Sudanese National intelligence and Security Services arbitrary arrest and detention in secret places by the end i assess and in a humane treatment meted out to human rights defenders so they dont believe your blanket denials are that this is the African Commission we dont have secret detention places we have got well known presence of detention but i can tell you that the number of those detainees is very limited because of some of those that it evaluates that are taken by the government i mean a bit of vantive behavior the government of it arrested some political leaders and many of them were they were released im not saying that the rest is correct but im saying that sometimes in our part of the world and what is happening around us you may take some measures even if you dont support those measures if they happen in a different environment these measures beyond anything that human Rights Groups particularly in africa prepared to tolerate the special rapporteurs for the commission noted the constant. And detention of human rights defenders said there a tactic used by the sudanese the authorities by you to obstruct the work of human rights defenders when most is you are when youre just kind of struck when the site is part of steered clear to sudan last time there were twenty one and it listed to vist and political leaders this is the African Commission on human and peoples rights he says of us especially for that i cant tell you those things are nothing either i suppose the stories are not all correct and some of them exaggerated the numbers of the behaviors and i can tell you is one of the best examples of your modernized in the region im not saying everything is perfect not no not a not or not thats another cording to the commission the commission is a respected body its consist of eleven members who are elected by the African Union assembly its secretariat is in the gambian capital band you and its commissioner is from ethiopia a creator and African Commission i can tell you that its judging you pretty harsh when he says that and we respect whatever that comes from our brother system you dont seem to you know there was a tell you the littlest report of nepa by his excellence or president bashir to the heads of states it has been unanimously received and sudanese transition to Good Governance and the notion of the good results where unanimously commended by the African Leaders and wondering nurse is another example im wondering this the what is the calculation behind all your denials you think most people around the world are just ignorant and you know im not saying that and im not denying saying that yes there are some departures from normal behaviors but sometimes you need them in order to prevent catastrophic actions you think if you go on repeating. These things time and time again the few people somewhere down the line will start to believe them or you wish to degrade the truth to such an extent that people dont know that they know not even of the truth but they also put in another ugly winter many were killed in sudanese want to streeters month how many were injured im not talking about who or so were killed very few but you know im not talking about what killed and injured torture and the rest. Connected to killing and harassment. Is one of the countries in which the spirit is has always been very clear lets talk about harassment because in twenty fifteen the African Union itself presumably you dont think theyre all live as they looked into your last elections and they werent at all impressed by your standards they reported violations of political and civil rights to such an extent minister that some parties or groups they said found it difficult to carry out legitimate activities relating to the election the level of freedom enjoyed bipartisan candidates they said was generally and satisfactory that was a pretty part of the report is certainly who are ready that is more to serve little bo president obasanjo he said the elections were credible he said the level of a series of them enjoyed by parties and counted it was generally satisfactory but heres a new take it youre taking that but it said the elections that credible as well as an accolade why did you rig those elections then i know i can tell you i was in charge of those elections and they challenge everybody to say that they live shows where it leads is what the African Union monitors said they spoke of a restrictive political environment and a media landscape characterized by censorship and harassment of independent media houses and you call that a Fair Election it was a fairly election the seventy ports it was a clear one election was some limited turnout with charities arise. I censorship and harris meant of independent media despite guarantees of freedom of expression in the constitution African Union monitors received reports of arrests and detention of independent journalists who criticize the government for questions as handling of the seller to tell you that throughout the elections none of the given a list was arrested and im sure of that was in charge of the same elections and again there were those who we believe minister you believe you you have to have plenty of reason to sell this story no i dont have these where isnt dependent independent African Union monitors but the African Union is self the mission headed by a president of a sample said that they letters were free fair and credible and they could get to sized only the terno which well they criticized a lot more the level of freedom enjoyed bipartisan ganders it was generally unsatisfaction coming back to you havent you read the whole record that was not true either that if you didnt you didnt read that it wasnt for that report but you are a very selective im picking out the points where they criticize easier to see it doesnt lead to something valuable it doesnt devalue their importance any i cant sit here and read you out the whole reportable in your heart but you have it in what you see that it supports your point of view and theres plenty to support that it is you love it to support my point of view as well and the action against the press was all in line with your president s longstanding determination to bend the press in sudan to these well do you know how many newspapers do we have i know how many a lot. A lot in a country is a lot of newspapers which are not government or want free compared to the holy jim that means there is a free how to free minister in december twenty four team new president. Spoke at a Party Meeting and criticized what he called the governments inability to control the media and then he warned he would take decisive measures hes been doing that ever since hasnt he so its clear you never had any intention of how he was very proud and a member of the worse when a president in the third world country says that we failed to control of the media this means that there is no harassment that is not really that us again the media really this what it does really not if youre talking about harassment he was taking decisive measures he has but i said to lead according to all the reports taken decisive measures against your german constant heris could tell you nothing of that has happened. So everybodys line everybody makes up these stories about the weight of evidence miss that is simply too hard for you to sit there and brushes ladies allegations or has its all nonsense and all its not nonsense not saying that it is or one says you know since you are saying they are some of them are there but you know if you wait again its what is going on around us you will find that we are taking measures to keep by the integrity of our country in a country are surrounded by isis public what are still not going to do with the way you treat the press no we are not to be treating the press we are thirteen people who help the uns independent expert on sudan has requested that you amend the press and publication act give more protection to journalists why havent you done this the minutes is still going on in the village and that had been said how long do we wait views will tell you last year the amendment was sent to the parliament where the deer police union object it that they were not part of it it has been again taken back to a committee for by the government they get my list and the Civil Society so how do i ask you again how long is this going to take you to do and i think in the second in the next meeting of the National Assembly the press. Will be one of the fairness to be seen a visit and is anybody going to take any notice of it once its done i ask you this because your interim National Constitution bill of rights specifically up holds the right to freedom of expression and media and some of it is being trashed by your difficult to extract what are you going to ever called to addictions the constitution is unacceptable and this is why and this happened we are even sitting olmos after the suppression of the cells to amend them so they cover for that have been abuses against. Press we have been video by your government sometimes it happens i can tell you im not denying that but it is not something of that you can see theres a patent to this during demonstrations but during demonstrations last month for instance the committee for the protection of journalists says seven reporters had been arrested and they were released in one of the houses yes and it accused you of intimidation confiscating newspapers you talk about the number of free newspapers that you confiscated newspapers and you attempted to censor new grooming mcginest and many are over here is that and once it happens some would be in complicity the fear is that like every dictatorship youre scared stiff of the million and shifted that she were not on autocrats look to the government with the elected president and the left part of your scared stiff that if you have a free press and Critical Press its going to undermine your hold on power that is a well to thats what this is all the glass is ludicrous is much more political progovernment numeric specked and you read todays newspapers who said earlier of a nice lets talk about corruption in your country last much Transparency International which as you know is respected around the world said corruption is present in all sectors and across all branches and levels of your government in other words you serve a fairly corrupt administration i can tell you this is a laughing matter though it is not a lot its a laughing matter i heard my sister a russian jet of all those issues is unfair ok lets have the details then they said Public Servants are known to demand bribes for services that individuals that come or companies are legally entitled to can tell you this is a general is unfair doesnt happen it doesnt know it happens sometimes of the government is fighting there somewhere guilts of have been striking but not be a generalization this is just unfair government officials hold direct and in direct states in Many Enterprises you know this to be true and the head of state in government is believed to have embezzled up to nine billion dollars actually from oil reserves. Im not aware of anything like that i can assure you this is from the statement give you a lift in two thousand and eleven the International Crisis group identify the least a hundred and sixty four companies a range of sectors that were owned or controlled by the sudanese military police and officials from your Intelligence Service privatization what are they doing private those are doing alright because it isnt on the way and fifty percent of those companies has been privatized and now the privatization is going on until the last company were they doing with all these companies it was a step payoff for grabbing down on your opponent at the time amended government or sort of his due her companys but from ninety two the decision of the company to private those all Government Companies that are started all tourist. Hotels have been Privatized Companies because the Government Companies are corrupt on not because theyre corrupt but we are now following a free market economy and then we privatized privatizing all or can say theyre not corrupt two weeks ago your own Auditor General accused fifteen Government Owned Companies of manipulating their twenty sixteen accounts manipulating revenue surpluses profits and investment these are these are you have said he says you mentioned the Auditor General we have got an Auditor General who is only a countable to the parliament he there they clearly post to the parliament weve dealt going through even the president on air here its his of the port of call option in Government Enterprises everywhere tell us a billion corruption and thats the Transparency International was quite correct in their assessment that can show you the transparency we are looking after when an auditor journal of the it is reported delicately to parliament and that is always reflected in newspapers throughout with some being tried being. Isnt it mr geiger whats going to happen to these companies nothing will they manipulate their revenue surpluses profit they they fix their books and you will do nothing about it you can never do that because stores are subject to the Auditor General and hes just discovered fifty of them visiting government that we put in most of that has been tried some of them has been prison but isnt know which ones have been trying many which give me an example going if you want the sort of general one sudar caught on company well in the present when were they when with a trial their been put in prison not for it or many years now were talking about the ones who manipulated the twenty sixteen accounts theres no doubt theyre under investigation they investigated text phone youre sure oh sure sure im very sure of the. Us has not lifted sanctions against you but they remain deeply critical also of your human rights record on january the twentieth along with the new they condemn the again the harassment arbitrary detention and attacks on journalists in sudan. You dont convince anybody i met who is the deputy state secular you dont convince a circle you remain on the list of state sponsors of terror and we are now on their way discussing that in order to the list for of that unfair listing you say its unfair its unfair because they know one of the five tracks of which we are cooperating number one is a Counter Terrorist sudan is one of the most countries other cultural terrorism in the world was the us was europe was everybody because we believe that terrorist will affect us as well you think if you help the americans on counterterrorism that going to forget about your human rights. Because you have helping yourself and helping humanity were not helping. Any particular body we believe that the listing us is the fear treatment that we should have even of the lifting the sanctions the us highlighted a whole range of continuing concerns related to impunity for past atrocities arbitrary detention torture sexual gender based violence this is an annual report that has not been revisited in twenty seventy and this is a twenty sixty report that im aware of it has been a matter of sort of discussion with me that theyre pretty state secretary until early two days ago they have no illusions about who he was one of the Obama Administration specialists on sudan zach burton put it in october he said your government is dreadful government. The dreadful government well i dont know how he can describe other governments not of the your but of his that are sort of. Anybody can describe governments the way he likes but that doesnt make this description a reality do you have any intention of improving you know pulling human rights when we have continuous toppling we continue to. Prove it as far as we are very much concerned about it really internal fifteen the African Commission which ill be very much concerned about humanized recall more than anybody else because we believe it is our duty to our vision for our cities is the best possible treatment on freedom some Good Governance and thats why the African Commission in may twenty fifteen drew attention to your governments refusal to pay any attention to the issues that the commission raised with it it cited the lack of response by your government to the commissions various recommendations and letters of appeal so youre not taking any notice of them either oh you are not ordered to come and dishes are supposed to be to visited acted upon we only take what we feel absolutely correct. In the interest of our people so the African Commission doesnt know what theyre talking about sometimes the middle of sometimes also ok lets talk about your president s indictment by the International Criminal court indicted first in two thousand and nine and then again in two thousand and ten with three counts of genocide like everyone else he denies all the charges if hes innocent why is he too scared to go before the court and clear his name no how can we send our president to a court that we are not party to it is not an International Court its how you look we are court we are not party to that or who is that who is the chief prosecutor whos the chief prosecutor executer being an african does not befit an African Court go back to that of course of the African Union from your holy spirit to keep her lead to addis ababa to whatever subject they have been saying that this court is political it has been and thats the simile really does not throw is a lets look at the facts mills about leadership we have some vast because we have some fact i was just me as three of the african situations that are under investigation by the i. C. C. Where self. By african states two referred by the Security Council in which african states voted the d r c benigno and tanzania voted to refer the dollar for a situation to the i. C. C. South africa gap on a nigeria voted in favor of libya being referred to the i. C. C. I could go on but africa but this seems central and the sooner the decision is taken to say dot the i. C. C. So this is nonsense but the same countries avoid it until the twenty ninth of january that is one month ago to that the indictment against president bashir was wrong and that case should be brought back from the court to the Security Council to the African Union the same country is voted the gear unanimously without any exception that the court is targeting African Leaders or tell me i was human and if you know then you have more suited to be a leader has been indicted tell me about your decision in twenty fourteen you African Leaders to have your own human rights record and vote your leaders immunity from prosecution you did this unanimously in one more attempt to escape any kind of accountability not you resist you in sudan resist at all costs not all but we believe that africans are grown up in must keep. Causes of problems was in africa. Keeping them in africa by voting yourself immunity from prosecution its a job thats a joke isnt it all its just there is still a search of the stand prisoners are having by International Law immunities this is were not yeah and this is why we see the results of it till you are seeing that is all from your own perspective are fortunately and you smear the court you accuse them of taking money judges of taking money without your being very or your president made the accusation on your land in t. V. In twenty sixteen he said. Almost seventeen Million Dollars have been transferred and credited to officials of the court is not all that our president s is sort of poor that given the british newspaper it has been with the british newspaper i thought of it but the near has been propagated you know but out of this to get lots of things out propagated which are nonsense and you provided not one shred of information comes out of this op it tells about all this stuff to be saying that goes for the said it to him gun bill good to have you in context good to have you to thank you very much. Alex ok. Alex ok. Alex the q. Thank. You. Thank you thanks. For. The book. The cut. Cut cut cut cut cut cut cut cut cut cut cut cut cut. Cut cut. Cut cut cut. Cut. Cut cut. Cut. Interests lie. In the center of pentagon the trip in a plane seventeen doesnt come all the tribes in six would risk taking landscapes place for the experience of. The true story. Of a dozen cultures took up just enough fog dublin to. 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