Hes ready to stay in power at all costs because she considers himself with a mission and he must returns was grant greatness to russia. But the conflict to split Russian Society and radicalized both supporters and opponents of the war. How serious all the calls from local lawmakers for put in to resign, the will face treason charges. And when russia pose more of a threat to the west, if it wins your war, all loses and j collecting cough in moscow. Welcome to conflict zone. Thanks a lot. Seems clear that ukraine has made some important military gains in recent days as things stand now, how big a set back of these ukranian advances for the kremlin i. Its a hard question because i dont see that kremlin has as really answer to this counter offensive military answer. I mean, then political one and psychological in order not to sit justify possible problems for the beginning. They said that this is regrouping for troops. Not more but i think chrome is not ready to make any concessions in any diplomatic sense. And in the Political Science it is ready for further war of attrition. It could be continued and the kremlin until now has this kind of resource. Ive been primarily military resource. So this is to be continued. Do you expect marked escalation from the kremlin in response to ukrainian moves . I think its possible as could be natural as for from criminal sites, given the thinking, its very, very militarized. Its very aggressive, and that sense, i think they are pretty preparing right now. Some see, military got the same times. They must find wars for different groups of, for the population because there are lots of hawks among people supporting put him supporting of the war primarily. And putting has problems was it was a support from, from just very group. Because amongst the portraits of perkins, there is a group of course and a group of dos from dos as a shell kind of authentic as they want to p stocks and vice versa. So pretty much described or military or sorry, this describes dissertation in proper words. But the total indifferent, so the population saves. So right now, put into problem pretense, can say that this is going to, it could just suck impulse, but very problematic situation. Pushing i tell you from what you say there will be people, even among the elite to asking themselves if demon putin is still up to the job. We have the chechen leader runs and cut off who doesnt hide his anger. He said, if today or tomorrow, changes are not made in the conduct of the military operation, ill be forced to go to the countries leadership to explain the situation on the ground. Thats pretty direct and thats pretty insulting, isnt it for the president . Since he has to spend the fangs, its got a full the stress that hes a soldier for him than simply obeying him. And she can implement any commands from kremlin or the sickly his. He is such a sincere person, the one that hes describing, the current situation. I think you will guess some science of command from kremlin to, to do you to on this topic because its too sensitive for kremlin. This is an excess of one of the persons who are involved in this terrible disaster in this terrible conflict. Ah, i dont think that could be serious. Yes. Yes, it is noticeable for a lot of people. But as a santana time, generally doesnt change Public Opinion around doesnt change the situation and does not influence the military decisions. Another people are responsible for a military answer to ukrainians. So its symptomatic but it is still not so dangerous. So for approaching, when about talking about possible discontent and science its, i think we can witness different kind of just contents. But people are trying to be in youth leads because they care they afraid of their position and sizes, established rooms. Were also seeing for the 1st time political moves against the president from elected representatives will be at that local municipal level in both moscow and st. Petersburg public calls for him to resign. And in the case of st. Petersburg calls for him to face charges of treason. Isnt it extraordinary . These moves on how serious do you think they are or how serious could these become . This is very interesting phenomenon because politically, it is not so important for crim. It is not a danger for criminal of any kind. Its because municipal gypsies do not play any significant role as a political system. But at the same time, its symptomatic that people dont feel fear the situation where they could, the persecutors from scandal, letters and also mis fury. And the answer is very sultry. And to everyone who express she is almost view on all the situation. Could be prosecuted by and by the so it is in terms of the criminal code or administrative court. Some places, but nevertheless, plus threat such a fetish from the situation. And then say once openly, voluntarily express discontent was put in sessions. This is something you know, special from the size of municipal deputies and maybe this is soon you sign up from growing discontent in science not only lead butts inside the society as such because municipal differences closer to society than any kind of the mother state level for deputies, regional level or federal level. What happens if these actions spread to other municipal authorities or to moscow itself . How dangerous could that be for the president . The staples to the suppressed . And for the moment nobody pays a lot of attention treats safe disposable. Thats all just people has done as a kind of leverage. Could be in trouble. Ah, im afraid that its going to spread that are all around the whole russian. You best case . Yes. Its dangerous premier primarily not for put in but for deputies again, but its really important sets Civil Society still here until Society Still express and use not only using such tools come into the streets or broadcasting because journalist but a writing class or so to top of sure, it is accusing, put in the name in the states. Treason. This is an important sign. Up till now, moscow has done everything. Seems to have done everything to pretend that life is just the same as ever in russia, the mass funerals, no weeping mothers on television, the ballet and our proceedings are getting on the way and moscow museums galleries are open. The poppy boats going up and down the moscow river is this fictional normality about to come to a sudden end to think well see full scale mobilization now. Yeah, this is the right term fictional or mileage. Put, it creates these impression then that people are creating needs specialists and persons in name big cities. Ah, because for instance have died in who is one of the ellis of his quiet kids a good say state manager osco must leaf. So normal life, in order to be distracted from all this atrocities some disaster is ukraine in france. And the rest stepped from put aside, was not to announce general mil, military mobilization, military address. Because it could provoke discontent among criminal costs. Millions of people who are living in the big cities or middle says they dont want to go to war. We can talk about, lets say college troops which are sitting their homes, what you to be in different lists supporting the special operation. But as the same time, they dont think about those lean bullets into real war into trenches. And this is more for a poor population for groups of population. For people from republics, the distance of provinces could be soldiers, is for. So here up to tracks. For this is a julies in brains for, for the russians, especially, and middle classes. Here is one trip. Im living my private life. As it was always, i am concentrating on not surviving as it in other trek as states trick. So people put in, initiated this war for cation knows better. I will not pay too much attention to his arguments, but he is always right. I will support that indifferent plane not fiercely so and put him gives me an opportunity to concentrate on my own business on my own problems. I dont wait for any help for him from him, but its quite whos that he doesnt enroll into my problems. So it is useful for himself because she can continue this war and not paying for much retention. Im not attracting too much attention to it because atrocities people are trying not to pay a lot of attention to bad news. Want to be on societal for goodness, natalies a sense of evil. And because of that they, they prefer to block bed information. And its quite good for pretend right now. Your one of the sharpest russian critics of the war in ukraine, and that even put in one of the sharpest critic, still writing and still in russia. Do you not feel on the threat yourself personally doing this . You know, there is such a special term scholar that risk, that so who could say that them a scholar at risk but there are very Different Reasons for different people to stay in russia or to leave russian. And i know a lot of my colleagues and friends for us to hear some of them of persecutes its some of them are arrested for instance, micro political scientists. And then it goes by this only an administrator for persecution, for him or for his people as veterans relief, the russian and the case of persecution for any person here is better not to play this game with us for it is because its dangerous from a bunch of physical health and possible arrests, etc, etc. But from the point of view, for real research, from the point of view of understanding what is happening here from the point of view of your own attitude towards this regime. This is quite important to be here. So this is my country, my country is not equal to put his country. And i prefer to be here because i dont feel and to get a guilt, so i dont feel any responsibility for us to trust us. So this is my church. Ah, but again, in some circumstances, be noticeable to, to leave the country just like it was inevitable for primarily prominent journalists to leave russia in order to contribute information, real alternative information for the russian populations. They can do it from inside, until now i can broadcast and i can write, but it could finish in any moment. Couldnt, doesnt scare you though, darcy, his real did say, is for who is sincerely assures that nobody can shut her. Shes authority that he, she has mission to create new silver and she knew greatness to russia and she must consolidate people around him and could not ready to be consolidated. They are simply national 3. Shes come on column and i miss for that cetera. Hes not the president of the whole russian handled rushed in that sense. Ah, maybe he respects she respects his enemies, but it doesnt mean that they can be persecuted because of this respectable status. So he says, sure is that hes doing arizona writes, you written at length about your country past, present future. But i was struck by how you recently connected the dots. Russia you said, is im lucky with its future because its, im lucky with its cost. It suggests your country is changed to what a violent history and can find its way to breaking free from that. Is that what you meant to convey . I mean, thats one of the grounds for put insidious gees the glorious past and very specific interpretation of the history which is really falsification of your own history because she takes dark pages of this of this past. And he is what way . Fortune, for instance, hes whitewash incur, stolen his time. Ah, and in that sense historical policy for him, this is a tool for govern things as countering ah, he craves false or is fast, and this is a ground for consolidating around him. Is in inheritor of his grades. So if youll take a real past, you will, you should be ready for any kind of normal reading coast as fast. We can make conclusions from its best conclusions, horrible conclusions, but this is a ground for going somewhere for the future. Just like, just like it wasnt perestroika test we, when we, we became to to know something about ourselves, not our past. It was, it became an open window for the future for moving from a horrible past normal future to western eyes it and modernize its russia right now as receives life reverse. And so its very important to recreate understanding of your own bus in cable to know and to admit that some pages in this past was horrible. Were horrible. You said the put in whitewash is the style in his period now, but it wasnt always that way. 5 years ago, he stood by the so called wall of grief in moscow and said it was important to remember the repression that took place in soviet society. And now children are taught in your schools that the Old Soviet Union didnt repress anybody. What changed putin do you think . I, i dont believe in the evolution of putting a few options in a year to solvent one. She only inches away her to power. I. Comparison was muscle miscellany, in terms of she can restore some to tell terry and features which were typical for the past. And he simply adapted to the current circumstances from the beginning. He was inheritor of he else. And he said to support some ideas about democracy. Goods relations with west, et cetera, et cetera. But now hes absolutely sincere. He is free from politeness. He lost his shame. Absolutely. She disrupted all the time was arrest. So he subsided, russia. He expressed consent, was it so for him a repression of this is ruth, she admits he is ready to say the repressions. But at the same time she cant meet and she came to law to speak people to me that was so significant since history. Maybe it was to which could so help her stalin to rule to create an order. So its kind of a contradictory approach seats. But nevertheless, right now to whitewashed everything last week your Group PublishedResearch Showing that the war had divided rather than united russians. And both sides had been radicalized by this conflict. What do you think will be the lasting effects of this polarization now, in Russian Society . Yes, russia sleeves. Sheer a good russians and better rations, as i said. So anybody who is against us is not our l. I and that sense we can say both citizens for the 2nd shorts in russia label, says for insurance for simply people who are not trust war c for top of sources. And yes, the problem is, so the polarization leads to radicalization of for the us, people who are supporting, put in as a party can fiercely right now and put in hope when a support ticket also became more. Sure. So not supporters, if you there are some sleet society to different groups. As i said, even amongst supporters of pretense, there are people who prefer, for instance, more hawkish approached as a war and the group for which prefers less focused approach. But generally speaking, this is a sweet and it, it is living to, lets say, hybrid civil war between the russian groups of the population. Not a physically is not visible as a physical city. Real, real war between different groups who are fighting was it said, it is more about attitudes so where its not support to support in this as again to the citizens to a 2nd start from. Im sorry to interrupt you, but were running out of time. I just want to, to get to a couple more points, you say that russia is at a dead end, a historical debt, and as you put it, what did you mean by that . Come move forward, cant move backwards. If, if its true that its, its a dead end, what happens next . Destination must retrace itself. She will was at moscow, will see that a receipt is a k. But i feel as a set, monsieur, assaulting him and of a despair is unusual and people have a petticoat and another 2 guest new incentives for new developments. We need new government, lets say such a simple approach put in must disappear political way. I mean a nother to catch another to find a next its from his dead ends in order to get you incentive for a new development for modernization of this country. And one more problem is says a problem of collective responsibility for, for we are waiting for a little discussion civility. And we are involved in discussions right now, well collective responsibility and its different with collective guilt are responsible for it. So we will be in a situation just like her german nation after the 2nd world war. What happens if putin cant claim victory . The if the reversals on the battlefield continue . Will he pose more of a threat to the west if he wins, or if he loses . I think its substance li equal. She can be dangerous. Being for terrorist, he can be danger of being in a, in a defeat situation. But so he was really, could be a corner, it could be thats insulted by, by the said defeat. And of that sense, she could be more and more dangerous because he has a nuclear weapon. This is a main problem. But generally speaking, he can describe his defeat as a victory for the population and population will accept its again the indifferently because here is a fatty crumbs this war and people are waiting for. The end of the story is the same time understands that it could be prolonged, prolonged war and say, morally ready to the promulgation of this disaster. Very briefly, do you think hes just desperate to stay in power at all costs . Yes, hes ready to say in power and so costs, because again, she considers himself as of this sort of his own mission and he must returns as grant greatness to russia. Unfortunately, this is really so this is he psychology under kalashnikov. Its been good to have you on the program. Thank you very much indeed. Thank you. Thank you so much. Blue blue with the Asian Financial crisis room at the end of the Global Economy. 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