Dont have a will well continue to detail what you can all my forms to make it come to you from hanoi in vietnam im a brit thought she was a great pleasure to have you with us with me is an interesting and high Profile Panel as well as an ordinance and you always hear to discuss the issue of inequality this is one of the ten Member States of on the un region has seen a great team Growth Perspective to peace as well as record Economic Growth especially the last twenty yes but its also seen a growth in even quantity what is the reason for this more to have the implications of this and how can we accelerate the reduction in the quantity of these other questions ill be discussing rank today. From malaysia im pleased to welcome. She is a young girl leader decimated by the World Economic forum she is also the c. E. O. Of create and data center for Research Advisory and technology and in two thousand and fourteen you will soon founded an organization a Grassroots Movement to help victims in the east and then in. Malaysia well continue from the Engine Development bank we have a graph now hes the Vice PresidentSoutheast Asia and the pacific hes responsible for setting up strategic and operational priorities in a variety of things hes done Extensive Research and written reports in a number of nations including inequality its a great pleasure to have unobligated understand she is one of the courtis of the World Economic forum summit here in hanoi. All of Plan International twenty five years of experience in development in humanitarian affairs youve also been in the Danish Foreign ministry thank you very much for being ripped off from indonesia we have now mark on him hes the c. E. O. And founder of go check now that is a Motorcycle Taxi Service which is set up in two thousand and ten and within six years it became the first unicon of indonesia and a unique and of course being a company a start up which is valued at more than a billion dollars or more you expand it yourself and maintain and well of course be hearing about those during undiscussable and also from indonesia im very pleased to welcome paul finance minister mohamad how to dance really he is an economist and currently the chairman of the Mongolian Institute in indonesia so all welcome to all of you listening please give them a hand. Get up before we do. Into the discussion you know i was thinking what is my image of inequality now i live in germany but every time i visit india where i come from i get out of the airport and sit in a car and at the first traffic light i see a little girl say about seventy two years old with a little baby possibly a sibling begging for money that the contrast of coming from an affluent country like germany into india every time is my image off inequality keeps me like a sledgehammer every time i go home so i couldnt begin but all if you for your image of inequality starting with you now the most is your image of inequality. Its an interesting question theres many of those images in jakarta in my home city where you are confronted with day to day but i think for me personally what i would choose as my kind of image of inequality is i remember this one day where i saw about zero eight year old boy teach teaching his father how to use the go jek driver app. And i think that for me is an image of inequality by. Being able to visualize the Digital Divide the Digital Literacy gap between this kid in the same family as the father who did not understand how to use a smartphone an android smartphone and i think that was a very poignant moment for me where i realized well this is a big gap and it could also be growing even further and copy what about you what is your image well as an economist let me up. When i look at the composition i want to see the time deposit. Because ninety nine percent. On a deposit that maximum saving its only about one hundred fifty thousand dollars but the last one percent have. Six more than two million what is one hundred fifty thousand u. S. Dollars so somehow it reflects if you look at from the savings perspective the only small. You know on the well so this is really a big part of what you call me yes as an economist of course you think it dumbass a lot of images to your job if you want an image for you know thank you i mean you know for me we spent a lot of our time dealing with the aftermath of natural disasters throughout asia. And one thing you find in going to all many of the sites in the aftermath of disasters is that its the poor there are the hardest because of geography thats where the poor tend to live in these areas but also because they have so few assets that they can use to help themselves recover from a i think really being reduced how difficult it is for poor people to recover from these natural disasters i mean do you see. International but your question of inequality. So i could certainly share yours from the many many communities around the world where we work where poverty is very visible than very abject but i try to go to a different kind of inequality which is the inequality that the ten Year Old Girl thinks it is when she starts opening up and dreaming about a future where shes educated maybe in working in tech maybe maybe being part of the new Digital Economy and was told that math is not for girls when she opens a math book in school and theres no image of a woman in business when she. Gets her education and the social norms in her country are a shoeman that while she might get a job and she soon she has a child there is no network for her to continue her career so the image of of inequality for me is the disappointed look in so many millions of young girls and womens faces when they are told to stay in their place. And interesting and you said what you want to know what you make of inequality well thank you michel for inequality for me and perhaps im a bit different from what the pentagon schachter so imagine if you want to will travel if you have the ability to get onto the public bus which most of the time its not designed to be disabled friendly are based on universal standards and the moment you get off the bus you know shout at bus stop and if its raining assuming i imagine that you have to will yourself back home for two hours in the rain to me thats real inequality thats we have very different and very aspects of the quality that the discomfort here now one thing is clear that as i mentioned despite the fact that. Record growth in the last twenty years in the quantity has risen not stink youve done a lot of luck only inequality now one of the figures that i read is that the richest person living. In one day wants the poorest man in the bottom decade and thats a huge scale of inequality give us a sense for what is the situation off in quality in general in asia well in generally should the situation is getting getting worse weve seen an increase in inequality across pretty much all countries in asia over the last several decades there are some exceptions to that in countries like japan and south korea but those are countries where there is high social expenditure where theres a firm on investment in social safety nets and other things there are other mechanisms that help reduce inequality but in most of developing asia weve seen massive increases in inequality over the last several decades now its not quite as bad in absolute terms as it is currently in Latin America Latin america measured gini coefficient tend to be higher than they are in asia but the trajectory of growth of inequality in asia is what is worrying and it hasnt slowed down very much and in most countries in fact its speeding speeding up and. Why is that of a concern well first are basically all the stories that we just shared on what one of the inequality means to us that you know that its hard its difficult its not fair but at the same time just from a pure economic standpoint its not an efficient use of Human Capital and resources that are at the disposal of any economy so it actually has a negative return to the potential of Economic Growth over time but it also has a negative impact on on social cohesion over time and i think that what weve seen in a lot of our throw cycles. In the United States in europe and in Asian Countries elsewhere are reflections of people that feel that theyve been left behind by many many decades of good Economic Growth around the world so youve talked to some of the major implications off inequality for example im going to let me turn to you talked about this disappointed look in the eyes of young guys this ones kind of a point in form of inequality but tell us a little bit more as to how it equality affects the future of children who you said at one point they are the most vulnerable in society but also have the greatest potential so what what we generally see of course is that there are huge differences you talk about it but i mean lets lets just on pack some of the images that weve seen. Inequality in cities look very different from inequalities in rural areas inequalities between girls and boys. Inequality depending on your ethnic origin. Here in vietnam we work with children in the in in Rural Communities in the northwest where the ethnic minority made that they have under conditions that. Are. Nothing like and here in hanoi. I think the issue really for the asean region where we talk about children is to to lose the power of the investments in education. To be all that in. Shall we say the answer and respect for dignity. On the as an emphasis on bigotry and respect and equality even if they are in the in the in in the makeup of the as in society the dignity and respect and so high but but its not necessarily taught in schools for example for children in a way thats really advances equality. That advances inclusion you were talking about children living with disabilities children from from ethnic minority as it goes versus boys thats not part of the Educational Program so when we look at children and yes children are impacted more by by biden sandstone house of the deaths in those are always are always children eighty percent are children and women because men are stronger and can run away faster so thats very much part of the reality but i think you know id like to focus our attention on on how we in this region with its emphasis on education really put emphasis on on inequality and on on dignity and respect and not on discrimination because that is what will help these economies both grow faster and be more inclusive absolutely equality of opportunity is i think education is really important for equality in opportunities it doesnt do you have to let you be a finance minister and yet those people will argue that actually inequality is a policy decision fiscal policy decision would you agree well this quite obvious that you know the fiscal policy can play a role in addressing the issue of this inequality but i think the important question that. Actually even though we already implemented fiscal policy wide in the script writing i think this issue has to do about the implementation let me give an example we are talking about a location of the Government Spending on the socialist system the question is what kind of socialist system let me give an example about the case of indonesia we are trying to protect the poor by providing. A subsidy for fuel in fact the one who get a benefit of this fuel subsidy in middle and upper class not poor people reply to proof either not looking about twenty percent of the budget for the education but in fact not much improvement on the quality so deciding the mechanism is very important what would you suggest what needs to be done instead of subsidies but some people feel the social subsidies actually help people in a short term but they dont get any Income Redistribution my suggestion sort of done subsidize the goods you better subsidize the people directly and one of the possible you know option for that you know you do look at france but without a customs what are the conditional cause thats what let me share with you in very interesting study the problem with that caste ransford is targeting the poor how do you target the you know targeting the poor because everyone will claim they are receiving money so what we did in nature rather than targeting the poor we let the poor to identify themselves we profile discuss them for but making this process sort of difficult for only fifteen dollars if you have to queue for a p. R. Was only to get fifteen dollars unless you have a very poor you dont want to if you saw you using this you know somehow the markets acknowledge market mechanism and based on that you can identify people and talking about this you know a gaping. Indication youll get the money. To send their kids to school so that kind of that kind of you know finish and program is very important. But i dont im talking about you know the fiscal policy and gentle and last but not least the institutional aspect is very important because we need the Government Intervention protect the poor but dont forget that the government the friendship. And you know to prefer Economic Growth for the country as well in many countries to work i should say you know jokingly that one of the reasons why many people become religious is because they have to deal with the government you know you are many things that you can do only pray to god unless the government can help you. So we need to create the something regarding this process on the implementation of this. Policy as well in seeing you set up this Grassroots Movement and youve said that youre passionate about change in society and you want to be the change that you want to see in your country what do you want to see change you listen to what they want to say what would you like to see change so if me if i may first add on to. Public policy and better. Fiscal policy on social policy when it comes to implementation it has to come by design so youre saying but what im seeing today in most governments in most administrations we tend to design policies for implementation for the majority for example for ninety five percent and then think about very many of the five percent thought or out of obligation that we need to look good therefore lets go to ninety five plus five what if we can reverse. Engineer oh i would say what do we really enjoy me design policy. For the five percent and that would mean that we automatically designing for everybody i think this is something that perhaps government. Policy makers should be looking at you talking about the five percent is the bottom five percent in terms of economic to it can be. Economic people it can be done. It can be it can be the body. Stable people it is always the marginal the outlier of the society no matter what perspective you are coming from i think in terms of Public Policy making and political will for political leaders to take one it is really something for us to think about because most of us here in this room and normal people if not if you are not High Achievers all over achievers but there are many many people like what you have said oh you know are that. The kids who are living in conditions that we cannot even imagine why do we design policies where we are designing any Public Policy we design for the five percent was leaving. All the most rural part of malaysia that is the us people so by doing that by designing for the five percent we are automatically designing for the rest of us i think this is something that that perhaps is something that we need to go into a monkey but given to me from Public Policy and i think to you because youre not into Public Policy youre into private enterprise now youve set up this company which is a play on words go jenkins or jake is a taxi let me say right and youve got a good motorcycle taxi motorcycle taxi ok so now you tell me. I want you first nobodys story how you started with this enterprise because ive heard that you actually like many startups youve been sitting in harvard with a bunch of buddies and you came up with this idea that maple is a true. True yeah it was during that period in Business School that i saw that if i buy you know it required a whole bunch of people to bounce around but its been something on the back of my head for some time. Ive wanted to do because i was an avid or jack user during my consulting days and i just saw this Massive Group of Informal Sector workers who were completely undervalued by society. And who could actually be doing some of the most high value Economic Activity but there was this issue of trust and intermediaries and i think that goes to my point about you know for me what ive seen inequality the biggest driver of inequality in my mind from what ive seen indonesia is the inability to establish trust between of writing so theres a huge Economic Cost a lack of trust as the first and second thing is there is a huge it cannot because of the lack of trust or lack of access theres a huge Economic Cost and structural inequality created by layering. Before going to came these drivers were stuck to a particular location. That were not able to balance demand and supply having to pay a fee to whoever was the leader of that little area. Before go food people were stuck with having to have enough capital to have a place to build a restaurant in a mall or in a place with high traffic instead of just cooking in their own kitchen. A variety of Technology Players in indonesia right now are doing the same thing in ecommerce giving direct access right and whats happening is that i think the analogy thats very good to use is an organizational inefficiency as well when you have like an organization that looks like a pyramid with multiple layers and i think gets done very quickly but its soon as you kind of flatten out your base way things really speed up. And you people youre able to leverage every single point of economic asset productivity people whatever you call it any asset and i think that. Its to meet poverty and structural inequality is that asymmetry of access and i do fundamentally believe that outside of policy the other big push that could even achieve scale maybe at a faster rate is actually technology is actually technology because i i mean im biased obviously but ive seen it firsthand how. Thats a company a motorcycle taxi company in three years could become the largest employer in indonesian history indirect employer in new jersey thats thats just huge one story there are many many other stories that are going on like this that shows that you know with the smartphone revolution your ability to then level the Playing Field for people to access each other bill trust and do you believe your entire economic verticals is extremely powerful so does your do something now and im intrigued by the story its obviously very fascinating i am a little bit curious about how many women you employ. I wouldnt you know that many of the tribals are in fact young men. And one of the issues that were very keen to bring to the forum of course is that as we have this rapid overmind section as we see an increase in public and private transport what were also seeing new is that you know young women feel increasingly unsafe. We have every single urban area in this region eighty percent of girls will say they never feel safe in public spaces and so theres a theres that part of the inequality gender when you dont even dare get on one of your taxis because youre worried about harassment and safety not Traffic Safety although i know thats a big preoccupation in this region but but but sort of personal dignity and integrity safety i think is is something that we have to keep in mind and the other thing that were seeing with the growth of this film nominal Digital Economy which also obviously gives opportunities to young women is the Digital Divide is growing so we are seeing massive new opportunities in technology but mostly for men only ten percent of the employees in Technology Companies are women and twenty percent in mobile companies thats actually and worsening on the gender income in the economy. The fall this actually happened where as he was actually doing quite well the sort of the inclusion of women in the economy was whats coming this way now its going that way. You know. I just want to ill pose that question thinking to hold on of you to say why should women in particular be affected. Divide or the divide between those who have Technology Access to technology and those who dont well i think if you want to discuss about this whole woman believe that the day shipping technology you can see from the perspective that how many women you know participate on that production process but dont forget the but one thing if you want to give the opportunity to women on the labor market. I do believe can contribute a lot of things through the Financial Inclusion for example so you can look like that that nobody at home you can look at home while at the same time sort of like you taking care of your kids with this in many developing countries usually the job that you the of woman but theyre fine until inclusion with the bigger the knowledge you can immediately get Access Financial access so i would see that you know on my perspective that nobody can help two m. Powered a woman you know to participate in the labor market not just just to catch on you know its also so much depended on this point on Infrastructure Investment as well and just anecdotally in the philippines filkins has a very big business process outsourcing industry thats been growing over many years their concerns about automation what the implications of that are on that industry in the philippines but what theyve observed in the countries as theyve built out the internet backbone through the country theres more women that are joining the big p. R. Industry because families that were reluctant to let their daughters move to urban centers now their daughters dont have to move to urban centers they dont have to move from a know where that car. I dont fear in that kind of concern its real they can stay in smaller you know were not were all necessarily but smaller urban areas where theyre nearer to family were there now they dont have to go very far so again i think its just its if we dont have that Infrastructure Investment that goes along some of them that roll out of Internet Connectivity that goes alongside these. Great new industries and new businesses you know were going to see that divide growing so just sort of think underscores the need for continued investment focus on the area i think were going to focus on what we can do to overcome this inequality divide that is between the haves and the have nots and what im really nothing enterprise me an example that we can have more kind of wonderful new. Companies and things in startups which come up which focus not just on profitability but also on on a social inclusion. And on that for me if every Single Person even below the poverty. Barrier has a smartphone which is not actually a problem its actually quite possible in the next three four years when so i say as soon as an android Smartphone Gets to about. I would say fifteen twenty dollars which is not so far from now this should be achievable. I can tell you that the profit motive of serving the bottom of the pyramid due to its inherent skill ability will be sufficient in providing most of the immediate needs of the poor itself now this is a very contentious point a lot of people disagree with me on this that nobody requires a huge amount of government. Intervention but and yes all of that to build Human Capacity education and health cannot this cannot be solved privately however other issues such as structural access to Cheaper Products structural access to Financial Inclusion structural access to credit without credit there is no ability to then take risks to move up to your next level of Economic Development but as we all know you need some access to credit so in my mind what is what will private Sector Companies try to acquire it or sell to the bottom of the pyramid its what they need most what they need most is actually access to information and access to Financial Services these are the critical things that people in the poverty line are slightly above the poverty line we really need the third thing they really need is jobs not just because of an important issue but because of underemployment issues these three things with the economy its one of the most powerful ways of driving employment Financial Services and information is the smartphone actually all three of them so. I think we are severely under valuing and also governments i think are undervaluing the benefit of spreading smartphones. You know some people go all the way and extend it to a very high concept of Digital Literacy all these are actually to be very honest at the bottom. You know the the basic right to me is giving everyone is smart for you to do you agree with that yes or no because of course there are lots of debate and discussion about the great economy actually why didnt it get inequality in many societies perhaps gaudet is not the best example to take care of because of the scale ability of indonesia but if i may just graph two simple example where we are all very familiar with once and the envy yes it makes it easy for anybody who wants to lease out your Spare Capacity at home to make an extra income thats fine however this model of get economy actually also at the same time put a lot of people out of jobs because of course it is much easier and cheaper to maintain two rooms in a house for listening then to run because professionally and properly so i think this ethical debate about to get you talking economy how far do we want to go down the line when you say that. For example the economy model actually bring access bring jobs to bring our Financial Inclusion today and my julys arent about Rich Community but i think if you look at other examples this may not be the case however building on to what you said about giving everybody a smart phone if i may also do an example of these what facebook is giving out free mobile phones to a community and suffer so why do we need ok assuming im from south africa or the african region why do i need an American Company to give me a mobile phone for me to go on to the social platforms day by day you can take all our data we all. No data and content means wealth in todays world why do you look at of course chinas model are not the best model of but let me draw an example of nature weve had we all know of because social media platform in china of course some people say that because the Chinese Government would like to claim their own freedom of speech and. Look at putting you under surveillance or whatever you say but assuming that we can come up with a platform or a system whereby we allow people to communicate freely to share their views ideas whereby we do not control or infringe on the basic rights of people of freedom like for expression and to keep the data we deemed a country i dont region i think that would mean bringing social innovation back to the core of the society because whether you were educated whether you i reach or your core the moment you are you are able to share content or provide or generated content and data online you will be creating wealth into the future i think that this is something that all our nations should be looking at instead of allowing the national or International Community deciding what to do with our data that should belong to our own National Sovereignty again because you know you will this is still secretariat of the United Nations before you join Plan International as a c. E. O. You also work for the Danish Foreign ministry how do you see i mean technology can be leveraged to do to decrease inequality if you have access to it as we may see examples of that the vendors the balance line between Public Policy and unleashing entrepreneurial skills within the society to kind of increase Financial Inclusion. So there is no doubt that there will be huge benefits also for the bottom billion with the Technology Advancements but it has to be matched by very distinctive point. Public policy as well and not just limited to the social sector of health and education. I think the u. N. Role learning that weve seen with trying to say for example around gender equality were trying to be very rational weve tried to appeal to the private sector to governments about the importance. Of including women in the economy i mean our friends from mckinsey have told us for years and years that there are trillions and trillions of dollars to be added to the training women in the economy and still not happening so thats where Public Policy comes in with issues around behavioral change weve had enormous success in reducing for example. Cigarette smoking. And the benefits of Healthy Lifestyle is really taking off across many parts of the world we need a new kind of leadership and mobilize station around Public Policy and and equality and changing social norms because youll also need as you mentioned by serie a council for the development of the world bank so obviously im sure sure a lot of concerns im going to has amount the inclusion of women but as a former finance minister the lot of policy initiatives we can take and one of the things that indonesia suggested and sent over the coming form in two thousand and sixteen was a minimum wage program for us and in fact vietnam and cambodia agreed with that proposal do you think how far would that go in creating better conditions that everyone has a minimum wage. Is a reasonable plan is a feasible idea on the one hand. We happily little bit but dont forget about this. That dualism in the labor market as well because if you impose the minimum wage they want to get a benefit theres no one. Labor market because you had an experience when we submit that labor law in an Insurance Company with the highest severance payment in the world because we want to look back lean but we want to protect if you want to fire people you have to be weapon to for months you know what happened after that the industry did in fact she from the labor intensive industry more into capital intensive raising the inequality so when the government be signed a program we need to be very careful with this if you want to come up with the minimum wage you can afford and what about the people outside the labor market better to get a benefit or not let me give an example when youre talking about this you know. Public policy this is very difficult part to strike the balance let me give an example specially nowadays with the Digital Technology how the government should perception themself under this kind of situation why because the product cycle is getting shot at and chopped up if you introduce the policy that next day will be obsolete because of the assumption that the snow will get the government can come up with a policy that well if you mention about these changing a culture this is the thing that we need so what we need actually is an. But. There is no way the bill that can be undone. So this is really a challenge from the government and the public course a perspective we probably have to change somewhat mindset mindset from agree on rules to agree on principles but is it possible so middle class this is not going to be easy because you have to adopt all the times you know i mean i want to ask you would that because you as a technocrat youre kind of over here for i mean try on the in. These countries not getting it right and one of the policy in iraq which actually helped reduce inequality well its our. It basically comes down to a question of social protection policy at the end of the day and i think its a point about. Whether a minimum wage is the right answer or not as it is if it is a very good one because at the end of the day so much labor policy across the region and across developing the developing world is protecting jobs rather than protecting people so how do you develop policies that are going to provide a safety net for those people that fall through that are left behind by you know by disruption or left behind by a policy change or left behind by you know automation but not feel that they necessarily have to keep that job how do you make investments in Human Capital that are going to make sure that people are sufficiently if the workers of the next generation are sufficiently flexible to adapt to disruption to adapt to this constant change that were going to be seeing of course and our plan our education policies and keeping up with our labor policies not keeping up with that so i think that theres a bunch of Different Things and one of the results of course the huge problem about growing people in the informal structure into the system and then the f. A. A. Rules and the m. S. M. These are kind of the backbone off. And some eighty percent to ninety percent you know Member States how does one actually get your company so as a blueprint. How do you see this going for that you need to go beyond kind of just instruct as we need to not only on the up and made me go from here. To make question but i want to go on your own experience and see how does that. I think that. So theres two things theres the short term or the medium term impact which is a combination of government policy as well as technology deregulation to enable obviously with the large exception of Consumer Lending which is quite dangerous if you let it go rampant on its own exactly like you said there should be some checks and balances there. Thats the kind of medium term. Things that can have impact within two three four years but you always end up in the same cycle again if you dont address the. Biggest kind of lever force future inequality the reduction initiatives which is education theres no youre right you you cant hack your way around it at the end of the day youre going to need to give the largest amount of. Knowledge and opportunity for the Younger Generation to be able to be either selfemployed get a job or become part of the Creative Economy so if you dont establish that then there is a will there will be no assemblies the health of that is really bad so for example in go food our food delivery eighty percent of our transactions comes from mom and pop shops not the large franchise retail excedrin and and may i add also the best majority of the new first time entrepreneurs are women actually because thats why because they get the care of their kids and start a business at home at the same time they have less access to capital yes but now that their transactions are all tied up in their Digital Content banks and all kinds of Financial Institutions are now gunning for them to be able to provide Financial Services because it wasnt cash so there in lies its kind of also the key the key gateway to Financial Inclusion is also the elimination of cash so that you have information and you have transactional data to be able to assess that but i think in. Its whatever you do to date for the existing adult working population can only do so much to solve inequality gender inequality economic inequality opportunity inequality that all nice to be addressed in some of the transforming the educational system today because it will be too late if we dont attack this especially given the massive demographic boom that is actually being experienced it so the demographic boom can go both ways it can go as a bonus if you get the education right to be or it could be massive both political and social risk if it creates even a higher inequality because the most unhappy person is a College Graduate who comes out and cant find opportunity that is when countries begin to destabilize and so i think i think you know im torn between the long the medium term ones and the real long term Educational Initiatives that are no short of a Herculean Task because youve got to transform the Education System evolving it will not do today you have to really transform and this seems to be a general consensus among all a few that actually education is fundamental access to opportunity is essentially to kind of deal with the problem of clean equality in to reducing inequality sounds like a big idea that Something Like its very difficult but in fact if you look at it in a very granular form it can be done through equal access equal much in the high quality of the patient to health care to taishan and even Financial Inclusion i think by taking all the small steps we are in effect of reducing inequality gap in all countries a region thats a very good not doing taking still small steps certain words a big goal thank you very much youre watching the job the World Economic forum debate coming to you from hanoi in vietnam thank you very much for your company and thank you very much my panelists here and the audience please give them a big headlines in jail. 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European Union Leaders piled the pressure on the british Prime Minister telling her parts of her break the plan wont work and that time is running out where and thank you summit in salzburg also coming up. The world