Next, Rick Atkinson discusses the significance of the invasion of sicily and the Italian Campaign on the eventual liberation of europe in world war ii. This one hour and 40 minute event is part of the New York Historical society distinguished speakers lecture series. Thank you so much for inviting me to be with you and for joining me on this gorgeous new york morning. This is the third presentation i have given in this fantastic auditorium in just over a year and all i can say is you folks are gluttons for punishment. We will talk about the Second World War this morning. I was just in normandy for the 70th anniversary of dday in that campaign certainly has taken center stage this spring just as it has in our National Narrative about that liberation of europe. This morning, we will try to bring the italian war back into focus a bit. I have two confessions. I have not seen the movie payzant. Campaignlk about the in italy up through the fall of was june 4, 1944. The war goes on, but for the most part, i do not know much about it. A sad cold as that of a campaign that lasts almost a year. De sac of the campaign that last almost a year. To liberate italy from itself and then from the germans lasted 608 days, cost 312,000 allied casualties. It is equal to 40 of the casualties incurred in that bigger, more Famous Campaign in northwest europe. Rake of war. E hot three quarters of a million american soldiers fought in italy and 20 3500 and one of them are killed in action. ,351 were killed in action. Three connected battles can be appreciated independently, but together, more of a coherent narrative. The first panel is north africa. That is where the liberation of europe really begins. The second panel is sicily and italy. The third panel is northwest europe on that final Decisive Campaign. The mediterranean is a proving ground for that final Decisive Campaign in northwest europe. It is a proving ground for tactics and equipment, various kinds of Amphibious Landing craft were first tried out in the mediterranean. It is a proving ground for leaders. Who can do it . Who cant do it . The senior generals and the admirals who commanded in the mediterranean are the same bunch who will command in northwest europe. Eisenhower, montgomery, omar ramsey, george patton, it is a very long last. Normandy,reparing for they called themselves the mediterraneanites. Eisenhower says the mediterranean theater will always be in my blood. This is eisenhower on the eve of normandy with his senior subordinate commanders and everyone of them, except for the man standing behind him, has come with him from the mediterranean. Marshallehind him, air is not a mediterraneanite and it is a problem for him. The 20th centurys central myth, he called it a fast imagining of a primal time where good and evil contended for the planet. Toward that end, i use a fragment as an epigraph to the day of battle, which is my book about the Italian Campaign. Song, whath your kings were fired for war, armies orders from the plains, what. Eroes sprang into blue how did we end up in italys lifegiving land . Why were we in italy . Operation husky, the invasion of sicily, had been decided seven months earlier. The operation takes place on july 10, 1943. It had been decided seven months earlier during a conference convened at casablanca in january by president roosevelt and Prime Minister churchill and their military brain trust. The guys in the chairs are roosevelt and churchill. Sicily is the largest island in the mediterranean. It is only two miles from the total of the italian boot toe of the italian boot. Supplying the for persia. Via it would also supply air bases. What to do beyond sicily is hotly disputed in at casablanca, they could decide on sicily. They could not decide what to do after sicily. The british, meaning churchill, advocate carrying the waon to italynd italy to knock out of the axis alliance. Churchill and since this would cause a chill of loneliness over the german people and might be the beginning of their doom. The americans are skeptical. They look skeptical, dont they . Fixation onritains mediterranean, this fixation reflects British Imperial ambitions. I have dominated the mediterranean they have dominated the mediterranean for 200 years. The war will be one, the americans content, this argument is happening on this day, it will be one in Central Europe and to cross the English Channel. British argue that the soviet union, which is shouldering the heaviest combat burden on behalf of the allied powers, the soviets will suffer 26 million dead in the british e soviet war, the soviets will hardly countenance the western allies sitting on our hands for nearly a year between sicily and the summer of not and any cross channel invasion the u. S. Army has 6 million soldiers. It is growing 8. 3 million. There are 343,000 lieutenants alone in the u. S. Army. They have to do something. [laughter] the british make extravagant claims to overcome this yankee skepticism. Pudding. Egg the was assert that germany likely to fight as hard for mainland italy. The allied commitment would be modest and would require no substantial occupation and that a successful fight in the mediterranean but in the war in in4 could end the war 1944. None of these prophecies are true. What emerges is a compromise forged after bitter debate. The sicily invasion will go forward in july 1943 and until than, and ther cross channel invasion of france will be launched in the late then, of 1944, but until uperal eisenhower is to come with a plan for operations after the Sicilian Campaign ends, operations best calculated to italy from the war and to contain the maximum number of German Forces. Why is he smiling [laughter] . Why is he smiling . [laughter] the senior bosses in london and washington and their superiors cannot figure out what to do and they say, over to you, ike. What happens . First, the sevenmonth effort to reject germany eject germany and italy from northwest africa finally succeed. It has not been easy fighting theugh the mountains in winter of 19421943. A war that begins as a small scale fight the between companies, if you hundred brawling men, quickly metastasizes in africa into a clash of army groups and eventually by the spring of 1943, there are four armies in tunisia, a country the size of the state of georgia. American forces had suffered a severe setback in mid february 1943 when the german commanders launched a surprise counteroffensive. They drive the americans back 85 western tunisia. In terms of yardage loss, it is the greatest defeat. More than 6000 casualties. That gives you some sense of the terrain. Strengthes lacked the to exploit their winnings and the battle soon killed against tilts against them. Permit theses to exception from tunisia for a few specialized units and german and italian units are trapped and annihilated or forced to surrender. About a quarter million access bagged. Prisoners are we have won the first major battle in the liberation of europe and it occurs in africa. Now it is time to see use sicily sicily. The assault is comparable in size to be invasion at normandy. It is no small thing. Attacks seventh army from the south. Attacksish eighth army from the southeast below syracuse. The Campaign Goes pretty well. The island falls in six weeks from although several things go wrong. Example, high winds, for poor training and friendly fire cause more than 60 british troop carrying gliders to crash into the sea. And others crash on land. The casualties exceed 600. On the second night of the invasion, the u. S. Airborne operation ended just as badly when epidemic of from a fire let american gunners on the ground and into the fleet around the southern edge of sicily to shoot down 23 american planes carrying paratroopers. It is a catastrophe. In capturing the island, the west. Cans swing la the british and the canadians fight their way past in east. Converge on mussina, the northwest tip of the island. The four german divisions fighting in sicily, the germans have reinforced sicily after the american and british invasions, those four german divisions get away almost intact. We will fight them again and again and again. Happening, though, the island falls. Confidence, mood of the decision is made by war intor to carry the the italian mainland peninsula. He has been told to come up with a plan best designed to knock italy out of the war and to occupy the maximum number of German Forces. Here we are. The intent is to attack in september 1943 with the British Eighth Army under montgomery ail of theto the t boot. There is capri. There is solaerno. Before we examine what happens in these operations, lets linger on the personalities. The mediterranean is a place with the reputations of some senior generals go to die. Clockwise, you have ernest dolly, he is relieved of command. John lucas, his reputation dies. He is relieved of command. General walker, his reputation dies. Fribourg, heernard is a new zealander. His reputation will never survive what happens at casino. It is a very tough campaign on individual commanders. Italy is also a place where reputations are enhanced. Clockwise from the upper left, one of the greatest battle commanders the United States has ever produced in our history. He is born to lead other men into the dark of night. That is what you want in a combat leader. This is matthew ridgway. He shows what he can do in sicily he continues what to show what he can do throughout the rest of the war. This handsome dude is james gavin. The youngest majorgeneral in the United States army since the civil war. He will command the 82nd Airborne Division and he is a large player in sicily, southern italy, and normandy. The general who is the best of the bunch. He is a french commander. He is born to lead other men in the dark of night and he will show himself to be adept tactically in italy. And then there are others whose reputations are probably inflated. [laughter] is general omar bradley. He is a pretty good core commander in tunisia and in sicily and he is over his head and normandy when he has rades over where he was comfortable. He is overmatched, in my opinion. He is talking to carry outland terry allen. This strutting cock is george patton. Case. Rse, he is a special he looms very large in the sicily campaign. Of course, he disgraces himself by slapping two soldiers on two consecutive sundays in august 1943, soldiers he claims are both cowards. He is disqualified from further command in the mediterranean. He will spend the entire Italian Campaign in purgatory until he is rehabilitated sufficiently. Had that not happened, bradley wouldve continued to be. Ubordinate to patent patton scrutinize two pairs of allied generals. Prominent duo are eisenhower and montgomery. They are both short timers and the Italian Campaign. They both participate for only about four months before taking back taken back to england. Here is eisenhower on june 7, 1940 four, going to normandy for the first time. There is a study in anxiety. Hisenhower has received fourth start. He is in the process of ascending to fivestar general in 42 months. An average of six months between promotions. He arrived at his first field command in gibraltar in the fall of 1942 on the eve of the invasion of north africa having never commanded even a platoon in combat. Victory in north africa enhances eisenhowers stature and his selfconfidence. One british general remarks that he is utterly fair in his dealings and i envy the clarity of his mind and his power of accepting responsibility. I think that is quite accurate. A reporter described him as walking up and down, pacing idea after the rug, idea like sparks from an emory wheel. He could be a nitpicker. He complained that not one officer knows how to use the english language. As a field marshal, he has a spotty record of north africa and he does not show more aptitude for it in sicily and southern italy. When most of those german and italian troops get away across the strait of messina at the end of the campaign in sicily in august 1943, it is partly because eisenhower does not have a battle captains ability to see the field both spatially and temporally, to intuit and opponents intent. To subordinate all resistance to an iron well. Before the invasion of mainland italy, he has approved a harebrained dream game to drop the 82nd airborne on rome. Beenhe operation not canceled at the last minute, the 82nd airborne would have been destroyed. Eisenhower thinks it is a great idea. His job is not to be a field marshal. But to be the theater commander of a sprawling, rambunctious, multinational coalition. He defined his role as the chairman of the board. Chairman of the biggest marshal enterprise in the western world. He is responsible for retarding the centrifugal forces that pull coalition,litary whether the mediterranean in 1943 or afghanistan in 2014. He is not napoleon, but he likes to quote napoleon. The man who can do the average thing when all those around him are going crazy. He is pretty good at keeping his head when all those around him are going crazy. He is capable of turning the other cheek as he does repeatedly in the face of insubordinate savior by general montgomery, for example. He has an affability that serves them well. While some will come away soured by the experience of working with allies, eisenhowers convictions strengthened. You proselytize is relentlessly about the primacy of a strong alliance. He knows the best team wins. From the mediterranean, eisenhower will take the template for an allied headquarters to london and uses it to build Supreme Headquarters Allied Expeditionary force. He uses the same template to build nato. London,ime he gets to he and the other mediterraneanites have accumulated 60 hard weeks of battle experience in logistics, diplomacy, military governance, leadership, character, and slaughter. As for this guy, this is montgomery, having just crossed the strait of messina in Early September 1943 from sicily to mainland italy. We would be here all day to really plumb the depths of this complicated infuriating man. Africa, heower in has grown in stature and confidence. His success in egypt in the fall of 1942, engineering a victory at a time when britain had had no victories, makes them politically untouchable and that is not necessarily a good thing. After the ends,ign in tunisia whoe was a german general commanded the africa core and churchill was told montgomery had deigned to have lunch with them. Replied, i, too, have dined with montgomery. [laughter] late to turn his attention to operation husky. Demands that the entire he says, it risks a firstclass disaster. He also confides through his diary, i should run husky. This is a theme with montgomery throughout the war. Plan is changed. Had been morech dispersed will be more consolidated along the southern coast. Patents seventh army comes in. Montgomerys eighth is on the shore. Staff officer writes in his diary, the americans are beginning to feel that the British Empire is being run by montgomery. Fair. S neither true nor montgomery is a capable commander. It is a sentiment that takes firm root in the mediterranean. There is an epilogue in sicily in which montgomery cuts in front of American Forces, taking a vital road that the intent to. Se this is the beginning of what will be an increasingly toxic relationship between montgomery and several of his american counterparts, notably bradley and patent. General jeffrey keyes, one of the American Court commanders. Quote, the most arrogant, egotistical, selfish and dangerous move in the whole of combined operations in world war ii. Hes really pissed. [laughter] pattons assessment was simpler. Montgomery, pardon the expression, the little shit. One mr. Member, he is not quite a gentleman. The highway 124 incident in italy encourages montgomery to disregard subordinates and superiors. General alan brooke, chief of the imperial staff, George Marshalls counterpart in london, observes at the time he is a protector of montgomery the americans do not like him, and it will always be difficult to have him fighting in close proximity to them. This baggage will all be carted to normandy. If eisenhower and montgomery are the most prominent generals in are twoterranean, there others whose influence particularly in italy lasted much longer. They are Harold Alexander and mark w. Clark. Character is fate on the battlefield as much as it is anywhere else in life. And deficiencies of Senior Leaders are imprinted on the Italian Campaign like fingerprints. The Army Commands group in italy. He is the senior guy on the scene. As he commanded the army group in sicily and and tunisia. Alexander on the right, with general truscott, american general. Alexanders generalship lacks intellectual depth. Curiosity. Ks he relies more on his legendary [indiscernible] reputationerling built at the canons mouth. He sure looks the part, immaculate, unfazed, in command. One journalist wrote that he looked as if he had just had a steam bath, massage, good breakfast, and a letter from home. [laughter] early 50s at this point in the war. He will earn his field marshalls baton in italy, the equivalent of a fivestar general. Ofre is no shortage contemporary disparagement of alexander. His own chief of staff wrote that the limitations of his ability began to appear when the forces under his command became so huge that their manipulation required weeks and months of forethought, not hours or days. Another british general simply insisted, he is bone from the neck up. [laughter] yeah, it was said that he was a born leader, not a made one. It was said that he was an english country gentleman, almost an educated, who never read a book. It was said that he could not write his name before the age of 10, but he now spoke french, german, italian, russian, and urdu. It was also said that he might have been a greater commander if he had not been so nice a gentleman. He had in said that world war i gone over the top 30 times before being wounded, and that irish guardsmen like to trade in his footsteps while crossing no mans land in hope of sharing his good fortune. Patton, on the guile unbeguiled, noted in his diary, alexander has an exceptionally small head. Let me explain things. Written thatr has alexanders handling of montgomery, his immediate subordinate, resembled that of an understanding husband and difficult marriage. Sir michael howard, the Great British historian, who was at salerno as a young british captain i just had dinner with him in england she is now 92. Howard wrote that alexander had a calm, gentle, friendly slick thatke an oil spread outwards. Churchill adored him. Physicianministers said this was because in churchills eyes, alexander redeemed what was brutal in war, touching the grim business lightly with his glove. In alexanders hands, it was still a game for people of quality. Finally, tous, Lieutenant General mark twain clark. Theas an army brat, youngest member of the west point class of 1917. He was wounded as a 22yearold Battalion Commander in world war i. Then he was stuck at the rank of captain for 16 years during that sad, neglected period between the wars. He subsequently skipped the rank of colonel altogether. At the beginning of the Italian Campaign, he is 47. He is among the youngest american Lieutenant Generals in our history. A year later, he will become the youngest american fourstar general. He is meticulous, highly intelligent. He is something of a screamer. Carries a four leaf clover in his wallet. He is also aloof. Said, conceit wrapped around him like a halo. Incidentally, he was jewish. He converted while he was at west point to the only proper religion for an american officer who wanted to become a general at the time, episcopalianism. Clark draws sharp rebukes from marshall,al george c. The army chief of staff, and eisenhower, for his compulsive selfpromotion. Instructse photographers to snap what he considers his facially best left side. His Public Relations staff in italy grows to nearly 50 men. Each news release preferably carrying clarks name three times on the first page and at least once on each subsequent page, reporters are encouraged to adopt the commanding generals preferred nomenclature , Lieutenant General mark w. Clarks the army, soldiers called him marcus a really is arelius clarkus. [laughter] anzio inme we get to early 1944, stress is taking a toll on clark. 23,501 american soldiers killed in action in italy most of it happens on clarks watch. Not everyone was put on this earth to be able to take that kind of punishment. Writes with evident delight well into the Italian Campaign the left corner of clarks mouth is slightly drawn down as if he had been paralyzed. He is quite jumpy. To send himis wife some hair tonic because, as he tells her, i find i am massaging my hair, using that it keeps from coming out. It was falling out quite badly. Stress. Here is what happens in the Italian Campaign. Early september 1943, montgomery and his aides army crossed from sicily two miles across the strait of messina and the collaborator unopposed. Big production. No one shoots back. The italians, who have already arrested mussolini and imprisoned him in a ski resort yield to allied demands in a series of secret negotiations, and they surrender. Is september 1943. Not only do they surrender, they switch sides. They are eventually fighting with the allies, except for some recalcitrant fastest fascis ts, including mussolini, who is dramatically rescued from his mountaintop jail by hitlers commandos. As all this is going on, the main allied landings, general clarks fifth army those landings occur at salerno on september 9. Are 55,000 british and american troops in this assault. It has been announced over the pa system on the Landing Craft as they are approaching salerno, they have heard that the italians have surrendered. They think the war is over. They are braying like donkeys in happiness. But, this is a closeup of the map of salerno you can see the gulf of salerno here but no one tells the germans the war is over. Decidingfter initially to retreat all the way to if his italian comrades are not going to fight for the boot, why should he. Then he changes his mind. Partly by thed capable german theater commander, field marshal we have fought him in north africa, we have fought him in sicily, and now we are going to fight him in italy and woe is us because he is really good. He will be the last german field commander in western europe in the spring of 1945. Convinces hitler that by abandoning southern italy, the allies will simply rushed up the boot and they will be that much closer to the fatherland. More important, kesselring is an airman. The allies will capture the very good airfields in southern italy and areas around rome, and that will provide us with basis to pound the fatherland and occupied german territories in Central Europe. Hitler changes his mind. German reinforcements counterattack at salerno, and for almost a week, the battle hangs in the balance. They almost throw it back into the sea. They come within a whisper of it. The americans and the british finally, through the weight of mettle, tilt the struggle into allied favor. Yield, and naples is captured on october 1. There is naples. That is vesuvius. Spring ofpts in the 1944, the last time it has interrupted. Erupted. Capturing a big port is vital in waging expeditionary warfare. Held up the having allies at salerno, have had time have had time to thoroughly wreck the docs and warehouses and other facilities, and it will be weeks before naples is a functioning harbor. I mention that the allies learned a lot in the mediterranean. The germans learned a lot too. One of the things they learn is how to destroy things. They are raking the harbor at glacials wrecking the harbor at naples gives them the ability to wreck other harbors. They utterly destroyed cherbourg. Norththe long, awful slog begins. Mountain after another. It is made worse when those mountains are defended in the winter by 20 german divisions. This is a german propaganda leaflets. Salerno 1943 at the bottom, and at the rate they are going, the projection is that they will get to germany sometime in 1952. This is not farfetched. At the rate they are going. It certainly eats in the mind of every young g. I. Trying to get through these mountains. The late fall and early winter of 1943 involves bloody fighting , atss the alternate river san ph row, and an endless sequence of montes. German defenses are built in a series of belts across the app and im. Narrow waistin the of the italian peninsula. The socalled gustav line centered on the 1500 foot sheer rock face of Monte Cassino. It is midway between naples and rome. Monte cassino is crowned with a magnificent added. We found it in 529a. D by a wandering hermit named benedict. There is Monte Cassino. Various efforts were made, all of them valiant, all of them unsuccessful, to get over or through the gustav line, which brought the only real avenue to rome for mechanized armies. The leary valley goes just off the left side of this photograph. If you want to get to rome from the south, you really need to take the leery value. Midfebruary 1944, some allied commanders have convinced themselves that the germans are occupying Monte Cassino, the abbey, and they are using it as an observation post to direct artillery fire against allied forces below and to the south. That was quite wrong. Among other things, the german is a commander here, devout catholic. He has a relationship with the abbott. Some allied commanders, mark clark among them, believe there is no evidence of german occupation, and that attacking the abbey is pointless. It is militarily witless. This onrgument led to february 15, 1944. The destroyers when the argument. Win the argument. A relentless air bombardment that destroyed one of the most Sacred Places in christian them and killed hundreds of italian refugees sheltered inside. The rubble made a very good fortress for the germans subsequently. A month later, a similar bombardment hammered the town of cassino at the base of the mountain. Hardly one brick was left standing atop another, yet again the rubble made for excellent fortification. The germans remain entrenched. This is march 1944. Some of you Armchair Generals might wonder, why not go around these impediments . Indeed, churchill not only ask the same question, he insisted that the allied armies try a flanking maneuver with an Amphibious Landing on the italian west coast at anzio, northwest of the gustav line, 30 miles from rome. This is churchill in his famous dragon robe, talking with eisenhower. That is alexander there. Churchill is really the driving force behind the anzio operation. Ters until finally, they agree to do it. An american and british core on january 22,d 1944 at anzio. The town to our right of anzio is not to know, they are sister towns. Immediately bottled up by german alban, including the hills. You want the high ground in war. The germans always seemed to own the high ground in italy. They owned this high ground. They are able to shell every square inch of this allied foothold for four months. Its awful. Ultimately, what was needed to break the stalemate in southern italy was an allied combination of guile, agility, and brute force. Operation diadem, the gustav line around cassino is attacked as it has never been attacked before. British, american, canadian, and polish forces begin the offensive on may 11. They fire 175,000 artillery shells in the first 24 hours. Was an breakthrough attack just southwest of Monte Cassino by four french divisions , including moroccan and algerian mountain troops led by the guy in the beret i showed you earlier. They cracked a thin part of the german line basically by an ,mazing ascent of a mountain cracking the line and getting behind the enemy. Polish troops then capture the ruins of Monte Cassino. That is what is left of the abbey. This is the road, going into the leary valley. Units finally make their way across this road up the leary valley towards rome. At the same time, a week after diadem begins, the six divisions bottled up at anzio break out of their beachhead, and they push towards the high ground you could see on the horizon there. Is one of thethis most controversial episodes in the history of world war ii mark clark received explicit orders from general alexander to aim his forces to the northeast to trap the german defenders fighting along here, the german defenders holding these allied units coming past cassino. Instead, a breathtaking act of insubordination. Clark tells the anzio army to turn left and make for rome. Obsessed with being first in rome that he threatens to order his fifth army to fire on the British Eighth Army if the british attempt to muscle in on the liberation. These are the forces that are finally breaking through at cassino. On june 4, 1944, american troops enter rome. They put out a sign. [laughter] is only scattered german resistance. For the most part, the enemy has fled north, leaving the city intact. Another 11 months will be required to pursue them north towards the alps. Another winter of fighting. Before German Forces finally surrender in may of 1945. They fight for italy virtually to the and in europe. The liberation of rome, the invasion of normandy swept the Italian Campaign right off the front pages. Italy becomes a sad, neglected culdesac, a substantial American Force and all those good french divisions leave italy in august 1944 to invade as part of that northwest european campaign. The residual allied forces in italy are not Strong Enough to do more than just inch up the peninsula one monuntain at a time. Was the Italian Campaign a success . The marching orders given eisenhower in mid1943, knock italy out of the war and contain the maximum number of german you would have to say yes, more or less. 1944, day of invasion in france, there are 22 german divisions in italy. They are being occupied. That is 22 not at normandy, not able to reinforce normandy. Divisions 60 german at that time in northwest europe. There are 157 fighting in eastern europe. Italy is a relatively small theater. Theoristsh military jnc fuller in 1948 called italy tactically the most absurd and strategically the most senseless campaign of the whole war. But before too hastily condemning the strategists of 1943 and 1944, it is vital to ask what they could have done in lieu of invading sicily and then the italian mainland. There was not enough shipping to move roughly one million allied soldiers from north africa back to england or anywhere else. Shipping is the narrow bottleneck through which all strategic decisionmaking must be made in world war ii. There is never enough. There wasnt nearly enough to move that African Force back to england. Warehouses, and the internal Transportation Systems are already overburdened from the 3 million americans who are gathering their, pouring into britain for the normandy operation. They cannot take a few hundred thousand more americans. Out adchill pointed nausea him, the russians would that the very unhappy allied force in the mediterranean remained idle after the summer of 1943. Lets give the last word to this guy, ernie pyle. He is the most endearing of our combat correspondents. He is in the mediterranean the whole time. And he is heartsick the whole time. Can you tell . This, few of us trulyer conjure up any fond memories of the Italian Campaign. I looked at it this way. If by having a small army in italy we have been able to build a more powerful forces in england, and if by sacrificing a few thousand lives who would save a halfmillion lives in europe, if those things were true, then it was best as it was. I wasnt sure they were true. I only knew that i had to look at it that way, or else i couldnt bear to think of it at all. That is italy. Thank you so much. I look forward to your questions. Thank you. [applause] i am asked to read this to you so you will be a good audience. I will be taking questions from the audience. If you would like to ask a question, please approach one of the two standing mics in the aisles. Please tell us your name and out of respect for the other people waiting their turn, please ask one question. Two Staff Members are on hand if you need any assistance. Got it . Ok. Sir . Thanks for your excellent presentation. My name is lee warren. My dad served in the Italian Campaign. I recall many stories he related. That thestands out is germans at salerno used experimental glider bombers, Remote Control glider bombers, caused aalmost operation to be a failure for the United States. Alsou know if the germans use those same tactics in other phases of the war . Yeah, your dad was right. The germans were coming up with new gadgets. One they used against us for the first time was a glide bomb called the fritz x. Dropped bomb that was from an airplane, then it was guided by the pilot with a little joystick, and he could guide the bomb very similar to the way some bombs are guided actually guided before the new technologies allowed you. O use gps systems in the persian gulf war, very similar you use a little joystick, and you guide the bomb. It has little rockets on the back to cause it to go this way or that way. Guided down to the target. It had first been used against the italian battleship roma, when it was trying to get away when the italians switched sides. Fritz x nailed the roma. Salerno it hit the uss savanna. It caused a fire that one went through one of the gun turrets. It caused a fire. Came very close to causing a catastrophic detonation. Seawater put the fire out. Nevertheless, there were scores of sailors who were wounded and killed on the savannah. There was such anxiety about this new weapon because we had no counter to it. Ewwe knew radio waves were pink being used. How do you disrupt those . Sailors on ships were asked to turn on their electric razors in hopes of creating enough interference. That is how rudimentary the initial defenses were. Very quickly we figured out how to use jamming. Much more sophisticated today. To use a jamming to block the radio waves. German guidedthe bombs were less influential in the subsequent campaigns. Used almost not at all at normandy. Thanks very much. That is a good question. Sir . Mr. Atkinson, in your book, you seem to have concluded that there was no alternative to italy, despite the fact that your book also shows that italy was a horrendous mistake. Seem contradictory but you said there was no alternative. What would an invasion of france, Southern France, mars eilles, have been possible . That question has been asked for 70 years. Options that are being contemplated. The problem that the allied strategic planners have is that once you have committed yourself to the mediterranean, meaning, once you have agreed to the british plan to invade north africa, then as George Marshall puts it, the mediterranean becomes a swamp. It sucks in men and materiel. There is no real alternative in terms of shipping. Thejust dont ahvhave shipping. At Southern France and they did invade Southern France in august 1944. The plan was to launch that invasion at the same time as normandy on june 6, 19 44, so the germans were caught between the forces coming crossing the English Channel and the forces coming up the cote dazur. That southern invasion, they go up the rhone, turn right, go through the mountains. Fourare on the rhine months before that other force coming from normandy. The problem with looking at Southern France initially. And that is the right strategic decision they made. First of all, you have got shipping problems again. There arent that many germans. Then it is a very long way to berlin from there, as we find out when we do it in august. Yes, there is a contradiction. Nom not saying there is alternative. I am saying the alternatives are not palatable. In fact, when you really look at the options that are available come late spring, early summer 1943, they do what is left on the table. Thing i will say about it. Does that make sense after you had captured those airfields in southern italy to keep pushing up one mountain after another . Im not sure. You couldve had the airfields. It is a long way for those pilots. Nevertheless, it wouldve allowed you as it did to have really substantial air assets in southern italy. But what the die is cast once you have decided on november 8, 19 42, you are going to north africa. George marshall is dead set against that land. I happen to think that is the right plan. Warns, when youre in north africa, you are in the mediterranean. Thanks for that, sir. Sir . My name is peter otto. A complement you on your maps. But, but [laughter] is it possible when the book is going to publication you can have somebody look at the map and 10 p[aages later when you talk about the italian x, and somebody comes back in march where italian where battalion x is. In the books you read english are invariably about the difficulties of the americans in no boots, no overcoats. My god. Whatermans had 1 10 of we did. Are there any books about that . Maps, first. Gene thorpe is responsible for all the mistakes. [laughter] you know ,you saw some of these maps. Identifying battalions is impossible on a large scale map. But if you write about it, you have to give me some kind of clue. Ill stand by the cartography. There are very few place names that are not identified in the maps. We take a lot of time doing that. Most of the larger units, maybe not down to battalion level, you can find them on a map. Enough on the maps. So the germans. German write about the difficulties in all three books. Campaign inlose the north africa because their supply lines are strangled. They cannot get supplies across the mediterranean. Nd reinforce the german a Italian Forces fighting in north africa. Rommelsastrophic to forces. They are short of everything, including fuel, food, ammunition. I write about italy, too. They have a long supply line. It is not as difficult to supply by sea. But they are being hammered constantly by air attacks. When you are fighting expeditionary warfare, supply is the essence of it. Logistics. Mide of that is true for these campaigns. Logistical problems will only intensify as the war accelerate partly because those airfields were all supplying Bombing Missions out of north africa and sicily. Cities, bombing german factories, bombing everything they can find. And that aggravates the german difficulties of both reducing things and theres a p[rod roducing things, and there is a campaign called operation strangle to interdict the german supply line. They want to see how effective they can be to do that kind of interdiction for when we go to northwest europe and france. How effective can aerial interdiction be . Turns out it is a mixed bag. The germans are resourceful. You cut or rail line and the next day the germans have fixed it. They do that because they have got millions of slave laborers. 7 millionou are using laborers you can do a lot of fixing in europe. But yeah, i mean, the germans have alternately fatal supply problems. Fuel is their achilles heel. 1944uel in the winter of and the spring of 1945 is what will bring the germans to their knees. And of course the russians. Thanks. Sir . Good morning. Just wanted to ask you about, you say, as we know, the one of the central tenets was to h old the high ground. With the rough terrain of italy, wasnt there reconnaissance to find out about, not just the fortifications but simply the geography as well as the geology of the area going up the boot . We knew it a lot. When the italian switch sides we have a lot of italian informants. Theyhe Italian Military provide lots of maps. Need this to, they had lots of experience in areas around casino. We had aerial reconnaissance. That was pretty good. We had abilities to eavesdrop on german Radio Communications. At the highest level, there was an operation called ultra. The british had been able to intercept Radio Communications that germans thought were encoded to be indecipherable. And the british were deciphering almost all of them by 1944. That gave a very detailed picture of what the germans were doing particularly at the highest levels. You could infind out how many gallons of gasoline kesselring had. It was very illuminating. But even if you know, you know, there is a german battery here or there. We may be wrong about whether there are germans in the casino, but we have identified where those units are. We know who the commanders are. We know the reinforcements that are coming. We know all that stuff. Knowing is not the same as being able to do something about it. Well, if you know where the artillery batteries are, why cant you bomb . Its tough bombing mountains. Mountains sucked up bomb loads. First of all, the germans are very good at camouflage. Very good at moving. Did they take that into consideration when they were planning yes and no. They know all you have to do is look at a map and you can see it is one mountain after another. There are people saying look, the boromide is if you invade italy, do not do it from below. If you get into a boot do it from the top. Arius, inral belas the sixth century, invaded from the south. Napoleon new come knew come from the north. But that was not an option, really. The options are, as we discussed, you can forego italy. You can stop that sicily or southern italy. Or try and occupy as many German Forces as possible. This is a war of attrition. It has its own logic. You are not really. Liberating rome is a political feat. But the rest of the campaign is ling germans kilin and occupying germans. There is not a lot of fun in that. Wars of attrition are almost never glorious. Thanks, sir. Sir . Yes. My name is joe. And i enjoyed your talk very much. My question is specifically about anzio. While its true we were pinned there, wasree months that not affordable avoidable if john lucas, if he found no opposition according to reports, no opposition at all from the germans. There were no troops there. One of our patrols, i think, made it all the way to the outskirts of rome at that point. Think, decided to dig in and handle a counterattack from where that was going to come. It was mysterious. He was eventually replaced. And not only replaced from his post. He was sent back to washington. Thats right. Good question. Hotly debated for 70 years. You are fundamentally right. General lucas is the corps commander. He goes are sure at ashore on generate 22, kon january 22, 1944 with a force that is too small. One british division. One american division. As often happens in amphibious operations, it is too small. Now, opposition is minimal. Germanse a few startled who shoot away as the landings occur. But lucas recognizes that to hills towards the alababan and to get to rome, he needs more combat force. For every mile inland, you are adding seven miles of perimeter. George marshall who almost never got involved in tactical disputes actually defends lucas. You are right. He is relieved of command, but it is not because he has made an insupportable tactical decision. Its partly because i showed you his picture earlier. He has no combat presence. You are pinned down. You are getting shelled every day. Your casualties are mounting. Youre stuck in italy in w inter and lucas is like a grandfather. Consummately getting out of, slayers of overcoats. Panache. No when he walks into a room. And it becomes infectious. There is a feeling that this guy, im going to die for this guy . Have pusheducas farther inland right as the invasion at enzio took place . Yes. And there are several miles inland when he waits for the german counterattack. One thing that had not been anticipated by churchill. This is a churchillian brainstorm. Churchill is driving that train. And alexander and clark failed to appreciate the alacrity with which the germans responded. To feel marshal the field isshall within an hour bringing German Forces not only from all over southern italy but from northern italy, from france, from yugoslavia. Respond morens vigorously and with greater force and depth that had been anticipated. What you think patton wouldve done in that circumstance . Landing on the beach with no opposition in normandy. Do you think he might have dug in . A counterfactual. Historians love counterfactual because i cannot be wrong. I could say, yeah. Or no, he would have raced to rome. Beenhe story would have different. Had general lucas taken that land,corps and pushed in they wouldve been annihilated. I am a defender of lucas even though i recognize he is the wrong man for the job. Lucien replaced by thank you, sir. Thank you. Rick, i wanted to commend you on that d day program on the Brian Williams show at 8 00. And during the day on msnbc. You added immeasurably to our knowledge. But the commemoration of such a solemn day. I do recall when Charles De Gaulle got on his high horse and went to nato. And eventually to settle in brussels. Lbj said, does he want to take our cemeteries as well . What i loved about the entire trilogy. Your opening lines, an army at dawn, the American Cemetery in carthage. Namesw you then use the surmises of deaths to what happened to the soldiers. Who were killed by french, resistance . Or kessering . And general trust in truskin, what he did. What id like to ask is did you visit the cemeteries at carthage where the general said to the chaplin get rid of the stars of david because they mar the cemetery. The chaplain told him to go to hell. My boys have title to this land. Yeah. I spent a lot of time not just in cemetery but in the battlefield i write about. I think its quite critical because one thing, im an immature. I need to see within amateurs eyes the terrain and understand why they went left and not right. A couple ofere times. It is in the middle of nowhere, on the else youre in alger ian border. Every battle i have written about. Some of them i have been to a number of times. Earlier this month at normandy. Reason, ther other major reason is not only does the ground speak to you, but the dead speak to you. When you go to that magnificent cemetery at carthage, and kept up beautifully by the tunisians, i must say. You dont have to listen very hard to hear those young men, mostly men, talking to you. The same is true at the cemeteries in other places or omaha beach. Above you know, what we are all doing is keeping faith with the dead. 37 million. Keeping faith with those who fought and in some cases died. And part of that is going and listening to what it is they have to say and to having some kind of sense of communion with them 70 years after the fact. Walking through that cemetery in normandy on june 6, absolutely gorgeous day in normandy. And you know, i cry every time. I dont know who doesnt. Because you just see, ok, he was 22. He was 19. He was 26. You theind of reminds story. Ce of thse yes, maam . This question comes to you from my fatherinlaw who was an officer in the three 61st infantry. I will relate your answer to him. So please be careful. All right. On behalf of my fatherinlaw and the thousands of allied troops who fought their way up the boot and up to the po river, can you elaborate on why you did not more fully describe their endeavors in your book . Yeah. Tell them i am sorry, first of all. I will. Tell him that when you sign his book. I will tell him that. Tell him to write his own damn book. I will tell him that, too. Author you are constantly making narrative decisions. I know there is a big, bloody campaign that goes on after the deliberation the liberation of rome. I know i can get distracted. Write not a word about the pacific or the eastern front. There are many things i do not write about because i cannot. And do the kind of writing i want to do. And yeah, i think there is a legitimate grievance that those forwere stuck in italy that master of the war have had for 70 years that they get the short end of it from historians than the public at large, because it remains awful. And their sacrifices are no less substantial than those of young soldiers who fought before that or in the more glamorous campaign in normandy. My purposes as an author, i cannot go off with him. Im telling a story that is a sotory and that has a chronology to it. It starts in north africa and it goes to sicily emma dumaiand it. And the center of the story moves to northwest europe for that Decisive Campaign. So, yeah. Guilty as charged, but there it is. I will ask him to write his own book. He is alive and well i can probably do it. Good. Thanks. My father is about to turn 90. He was a career army officer, enlisted in 1943. I get the same questions from him all the time. Sir . I have a question. Are there any examples in which we cannot act on ultra information for fear of giving away the fact we have that information . Ultra was the deepest, darkest secret of the war. Did not become public until 1974. So intensely guarded that first of all, there were relatively few people who knew about it. The distribution list at the national archives. There were about 500 ultimately who knew about ultra, privy to decryptedrom the intercepts. There were rules for when you contact on ultra information that you have. And the rules were pretty strict. They did not want the germans to the2 and 2 together because germans were really good figuring out stuff like this. But in the main, i think you have to say that, although there were times when senior guys, ultra did not go below army level. So if you were a cork amanda, you did not get ultra if you were a corps commander. At army level, you had an ultra officer. He would say this is what we got from bletchley park. This is where they were decrypting the stuff in england. This is what we know. Sir . You probably cannot do anything because the germans would figure out that we have got this through a radio intercept. They would err on the side of caution. Ly, i am rare hardpressed to think of a time about when they knew something would happen. There were times when it was fallible. Two examples, catherine patch and the battle of the bulge. Germans did their planning not by Radio Communication but theyre planning over the roof of a jeep. Their equivalent of a jeep. Over the hood. There was nothing to intercept. So when the attack came at february 14, 9043, it led to that disasterous caserine pass. Inin, on december 16, 1944, the battle of the bulge, completely surprised. Part of it is the Intelligence Officers had become too, they leaned on ultra too much. If you do not have it from ultra, it did not happen. Eisenhower relieved his Senior Intelligence officer after casserine pass. Eisenhower fired him. He needed a scapegoat. But secondly he felt he was too enamored of ultra and not using other sources as fully as he could. Sir . Im howard. My wife and i have really enjoyed your speech this morning. Ive read all three of your books. The thinig g ive often thought muchreading i it is how did we need those early battles in north africa and sicily and italy to learn how to fight the germans . That is a very good question. That is the essence of the campaign in the mediterranean. Look, the mediterranean campaigns in general are a proving ground. And you are learning a lot of things. You are learning how, for example, to put a force onto a hostile shore. To do that, you realize you need various kinds of Amphibious Landing craft. So the biggest and the baddest of them was the lst, the landing ship tank, which can carry 20 tanks. It has clamshell doors. A shallow draft. It can land right on the beach. They are fundamentally critical to normandy. And they had been critical in their first use in the mediterranean. Thats one small example. More important is probably you are learning who is capable of the stresses of combat. You are learning things about leaders at all levels, from a platoon leading lieutenant whos perhaps 19 years old or at most 40 infantryman. Up through corps command and army command. And you are learning who has got the ability to lead other men. Who has got the physical and mental stamina. They under estimate the physical rigor of it, as we go into the war. And what is the traits that napoleon most cherishes and his generals . Anybody know . Luck. Luck whos lucky . W