Transcripts For CSPAN3 Washington Journal 20221003

Intellectual feast. Every saturday, American History tv documents americans story. And every sunday book tv brings you the latest in nonfiction books and authors. Funding from cspan two comes from these Television Companies and more, including wow. The world has changed. Today, a fast, reliable Internet Connection is something knowing can rely without. So wow is there for our customers, speed, reliability, value and choice. Now more than ever, it starts with great internet. Wow. Wow, along with these Television Companies, support cspan 2 as a public service. A nd professional since 2000, ee theres been a change in administration, weve asked historians and professional observers of the presidency to participate in cspans historian survey of president ial leadership. This, morning were joined our team of president ial advisers who oversaw our Fourth Survey for a deep dive into those results. Were joined from texas by professor Doug Brinkley of braise university. From michigan, by historian and author Richard Norton smith. Via zoom by historian and author amity shlaes. And from here in washington, d. C. , professor Edna Greene Medford of Howard University. Good morning to all of, you thanks for joining us this morning. Doug brinkley to start with you this morning, start by explaining the criteria that we use here. How do we kim may pair the man, theyre all men at this point, who have held the office of presidency over 230 years . How we decided to make that comparison . Well, cspan has but together a group, all of us that are on the air today are advisers to it, on how to actually rank these president s. We want to make sure people realize this is not a scientific ranking. That the purpose of, it in many ways, is to be fun and enlightening. To perhaps stoke a conversation around the nation about various president s, to story tell. But what we really did, do its not just one, ranking your breaking them up in the categories. So, a president will be judged on his Foreign Policy making or Race Relations or on the environment or on public persuasion, media relations. You get the idea. Its broken up into numerous categories, and then you go on a 1 to 10 scale on each of those categories. And at the, and we add them all up and there is the list. The key ingredient are the historians and scholars, theres only a few of us on air today but, really, the top biographers, academic historians, journalists who have written important biographies, they are all part of this survey. We really try to get around 150 to 140 people answering the surveys. And we are very proud, every four years, of the list. Because we can all quibble about somebody we think should be ranked higher or lower, but there is something sustainable going on here. Every time, every four years, lincoln holds that number one spot. Followed by George Washington, and franklin d. Roosevelt and then Theodore Roosevelt. Those are the big four. After that, you start getting president s influx with their reputations going up or down. The fact that dwight d. Eisenhower has been able to corral that fifth spot is really interesting. When one wonders why but, you know, there was all this talk about an eisenhower memorial on the mall. Eisenhower head to terms, could have won a third. He got as out of the korean war and avoided the other war. The only time he really use Government Troops was going into little rock on a civil rights endeavor. He created nasa, the st. Lawrence seaway, the interstate highway system. He was very moral, not a lot of corruption in the eisenhower years. I could go on. So, youre starting to see in the polling that rise of somebody like dwight d. Eisenhower. Who, not that many moons ago, was ranked fairly in the middle. People thought he didnt do much as president. Now, with the archives open, we could see that he was a hands on president , not a handsoff one. So, the rise of eisenhower, i found particularly interesting. This poll in the one before, hes now one of the american greats. You went through the top five for us, to round at the top ten. In sixth place its truman, seventh jefferson, eighth kennedy, ninth reagan, the ten spot this year, Barack Obama Joining the top ten this year. Should, note of interest, President Trump coming in at 41st overall in this years ranking. The first year that hes part of this historian survey of president ial leadership. But plenty of time to dive more into those results. Edna greene medford, why do this . Is it helpful, historically, to do this, to compare these president s over so many years . Absolutely. Its always important to talk about what is happening in terms of government leadership. Its important to look at them over a period of time. Because historians like to view history from afar. We dont like to look at Current Events so much. So, if you look at the rankings of these president s over a period of time, you get a better appreciation for how they are doing in terms of the countries memory of them or how the country views them overtime. And so, youre going to see these kinds of changes in ranking because of the passage of time. And because each generation sort of comes to its own conclusions about how successful these men, hopefully someday women, have been. In terms of their roles as the leadership in the country. Spending two hours, the last two hours of our program today, talking about the survey of president ial leadership. A deep dive into those results. And you can join the conversation this morning. Heres the phone lines to do so. Republicans, 202 7488001. Democrats, 202 7488000. Independents, or 202 7488002. Richard norton smith, as folks are starting to colin already this morning, as Doug Brinkley noted, this isnt cspans ranking. This is a ranking of 142 historians. How do we select those historians . Who gets to be a part of this survey . Its a good question, because there has been a concerted i would argue successful, effort since we began this, back in 2000, to enlarge and diversify that academic electorate, if you will. Now, there were 58 participants in the original survey. 141 this time around. Thats up about 50 . And that didnt just happen. There was, as i say, deliberate effort on the part of the organizers to, specifically, i say diversify. To find more, women or people of color. And more conservatives. Because it is no secret, certainly 20 years ago, historians, academic historians and particularly political scientists, tend to vote left. Even more than that, but if you look at doug talking about the stability. That stability is, in fact, the first thing that jumps out at you. Not only at the top of the list but at the bottom of the list. The same three pre and post civil war president s were deemed, almost universally, to have failed in the job. They are where they were 20 years ago. And i think where theyve been in every single one of these surveys. But in between, picking up on something edna said, its really fascinating. If you look at where the movement, is if not of the top of the bottom of the list, its in between. Im sure well talk about this later, if you look at someone like andrew jackson. Who in the 20th century, in the age of Arthur Schlesinger, was repeatedly considered one of the seven or eight most important and successful president s. If you look at where he isnt our ranking, i think hes all the way down at 22nd. The fact that ulysses grant, who is traditionally seen as the scandal changed and a reconstruction era failure, the fact that grant has surpassed jackson the overall ranking is really revealing about that different criteria that are being applied 20 years on. And of course, to some degree, of those who are doing the voting. And our last survey in 2017, inter jackson, as yours just saw on their screen, was ranked 13th back in 2017. 22 this year. Ulysses s grant, up from 33 to 20. That is that deep dive into the results that were going to be doing over these next two hours. But amity shlaes, want to bring you into this conversation. This is your first serve, a first year of the survey that youve been on this Advisory Team to help run the survey. What was your impression of the survey in years past . In the previous three surveys . And what surprised you about being on it this year . Thank, you im honored to be here and join cspans team. The survey always impressed me, because you, we included not only star academics, but also historians in the field who might not be ph. D. Professors. So, we are glad of that. I am one of those. There is no snobbery, no guild snobbery at cspan. Which has always been one of its strengths. That is, you look for, hopefully, serious people who do their work first. Thats why you get such a sound a whole. I was glad to see that new diversity in the poll, the poll looks more like, lets say, younger america. And we are thrilled about that. Look at your reaction to Donald Trumps ranking. The first time hes been included in the survey, we do the survey every time theres a change in administration, since the year 2000. President trump, coming in 41st. He had his highest rankings in the area of public persuasion and economic management. His lowest rankings in the areas of moral authority and administrative skills. Your reaction to that 41st debut . Well, the polar gets harder to do the closer we get to the president. You have to ask yourself, where the historians as objective as they try to be answering whether they would vote for trump next time . Or where they really ranking him . I say that in good conscience, its just very hard to rank recent people. Look at the recent jump up of president george w. Bush. That is one of the factors on the pole. When you look at, it you say 43 bush went up. You have to change lenses really fast from when someone goes from being a live figure to quote unquote history. Think that played a role with President Trump, think trump deserves an even higher rating on economics personally, and i think history will bear me out on that. But lets look at the other things to say. One thing, you see jackson going down. President trump is more like andrew jackson, more of a cowboy. Cowboys did not do good in American Opinion in this poll. Doug brinkley, on President Trumps 41st ranking, his debut at 41st. I want to get your reaction in these categories that we ask historians to rank the president s on. Public persuasion, crisis later, ship economic management, moral authority, international relations, administrative skills, relations with congress, vision setting and agenda, pursuing equal justice for all and their performance within the context of the times. Do we give any further definition of what that should mean, as historians make their rankings . Well, one of the problems is, you know, its always best to have 25 years until you wait to judge a president. Because thats when our national archives, ostensibly, its releasing documents. To the freedom of information act, you can start getting papers trailed and start reconstructing the president. And you will tend to, see after 25 years, will have a view of the Trump Presidency that might be different than we have now. Might be better, might be worse. But alas, we dont do this in this poll. We decided to include William Henry harrison, who is only president for a month. And that creates a kind of line in the sand itself. Do you want to be below the president that was in the white house for one month and then died of ammonia . Thats where President Trump finds himself. That means that you are doing a negative job as president , that means he didnt help the Republic Forge forward. I personally thought that trump would be fighting for the worst spot with james buchanan. Who was inert and inactive in trying to avert the civil war. Buchanan is always clinging to that bottom rung. But trump has a chance to move upwards as we just heard. His chances would be a reelection of him as president. Suddenly, hes not the two time impeached one term or, but hes a two term president who led a populist revolt in the United States. And his future is still wide open, President Trump. Maybe down the line, he will rise for other reasons. When people really look at, say, the program to get our vaccines so quickly distributed during the covid crisis. George w. Bush, who was very, very low, people assume he would stay low because of the great recession, because of the iraq war, which is unpopular. And because of what some people saw as a feckless Foreign Policy. Suddenly, hes rising. Why . Time, people start reflecting differently. He scores very well, george w. Bush on things like moral authority or, you know, a decency factor. And so, you know, this past year bill clinton and Richard Nixon fell some spots. You have to say, why . I think because watergate was in the news so frequently, because of the lewinsky affair being talk about during the double impeachments of trump. And this little spill by saying nancy pelosi said during the impeachments of trump, Many Democrats said, we are going to taint trump in history. We may not remove him from office with the impeachment but there will be a dent in his arm or. This poll shows the dent, when you have a double impeachment of a president its pretty hard to see what people are going to be looking at that as being a successful, uniting of the nation, healing president. Plenty to talk about in these two hours of the washington journal. And plenty of colors already for our panel of historian advisers. By the way, if you want to follow along with these rankings and some of the various graphics were going to be showing you, breaking down the insights into the rankings, i encourage you to breakout your laptop and go to your smart device and go to cspan dot org slash president survey 2021. You can follow along with us, you can dig into these numbers, and then you can call in as well and ask about what you want to talk about. But doug is up first, out of wilmington, north carolina. Edna greene medford, ill give you dog, on the line for democrats. Go ahead. A, first thing, happy fourth of july. Its an honor to be talking with such a distinguished panel of gas that you have on there. Ill try to make this real quick. You talk about donald trump, i think hes the worst ever. I think it pretty much started when he was in helsinki, saying he believed putin over our own fbi. And how he was pretty much putins monkey, in my agenda. But then also this last, year i think the last year alone would make him last on the list. His response to the coronavirus, he was caught lying to bob woodward. Saying, this thing is a lot worse than i made it out to be, i dont want to panic everybody. Its like, are you serious . If obama did, that you would see fox news raising, saying impeach, impeach, impeach. Also the thing with the insurgents. People try to say that was a bunch of tourists and all that, get your head out of you know where. That was an attack against our democracy there. Sort of like surprises, all these people were getting arrested, then he he is at maralago. Ill run for 2024. Again so, doug, 41st out of 44 is the ranking on the survey. Do you think he should be lower . Yeah. Thats dug in north carolina. Edna greene medford, your response . I think what we need to remember is surveys are completed by human beings. We may be historians and people who are following president ial leadership, the changes at least, but we still have to remember that this is very subjective. And that people tend to respond based on their own beliefs and their views. And so, thats why its so important to have a diverse pool of participants. He may have been lower if we had had a Different Group of people. He may have been higher if we had had someone else. But we are pleased that this years pool is so diverse. And so, i think that we are close to where a lot of folks are at this point in terms of the ranking. But it can change. By the next study a, survey, trump could advance or decline. A lot depends as well, i think, in what happens in the next few months and years. So much is going on at the moment, we really do have to wait for a while and see what his legacy is going to be and how he does hold up. On this idea of president s moving in subsequent surveys, heres just a look at recent president s and our last four surveys. President obama, his debut ranking, 12 in 2021. His ranking up to ten. President bill clinton debuted in 2021 of the list, up in this latest survey to 19. George w. Peisch in 2009 debuted at 36, and this latest survey up to 29. President trump, debuting at 41 on the list. All of this, available on our website for you to dig into. Steve is in wake forest, north carolina, republican. Richard norton smith, you have steve, go ahead, steve. Hey, i have a question for you, all the people who hate trump so much in the media. How many people showed up in florida last night to see the real president of the United States of america . Im just asking, does any of yall know, the numbers . Because a whole lot of people showed up to see the president. So, steve, bringing it to this conversation, where would you put President Trump in a ranking of president s . Well, to me, hes the best president in my lifetime by far. I know hes got 75 million real votes in real life that actually happened. So, i just wish the media, you for media personalities, would stop hating me, my country at my president. Thank you our panel of historian advisers. Richard norton smith, havent gotten your thoughts yet. Well, [laughs] me, ive been called many things but not a media personality. But this call and, frankly, the previous call illustrates, its a fact that we could spend all morning and the rest of the day and probably until the next fourth of july really debating the controversies the last four years. Clearly, there are people with very strong feelings on both sides. I have suggested, not to pull a plot on all of this, but ive suggested a 20 year rule where we probably should not try to assist president ial performance going back 20 years. If you stop to think, go back to the beginning of the survey, every president since then, unintentionally but nevertheless, in part because of the media climate and which we are operating, have all been polarizing figures. They have been, in spite of their best efforts, divisive figures. Richard nixon, who was certainly a polarizing president , said that it would take 50 years before anyone would write about him objectively. I dont think we need to wait 50 years, but i do think that there is Something Special about president s were not only recent time but who occupy, as donald trump does, a continuing element of polarization on both sides. I think that skewered the natural process. Dwight eisenhower, as doug mentioned, when ike left office in the first Arthur Schlesinger pole, he came in below Chester Arthur at 22nd. Guess what, in 1966, his papers began to be opened at the eisenhower library. And all of a sudden, people began to see that ike was a much more sophisticated political manipulator. The famous hidden hand leadership theory from fred green stein. That process, generally, tend to apply to president s. They tend to be at the nadir of their reputations when they leave office. It will be fascinating to see if donald trump, who is on like every other president and so many other ways, turns out to be unlike other president s in that respect as well. Donald trump, 41 out of 44. Although we should note, joe biden is the 46th president of the United States. Richard norton smith, the want to take that trivia question on why 21 to 44 here . Thats right, one served as president twice. Grover cleveland is one president , by the way, down significantly in our poll, but hes considered the 22nd and the 24th president. Yes so far, at least, the only president in American History to serve non consecutive terms. Amity shlaes, you have karen out of tampa, florida, democrat. Good morning. Good morning. My question, my statement i guess, is that i believe Crisis Management is probably the most important factor in the ranking of the president. I believe, that if john f. Kennedy hadnt been president during the cuban missile crisis, if it would have been nixon, we would have ended up in a nuclear war with russia. I guess, i wonder if there is any waiting, if you will, to the different factors in the ranking. Are certain factors more important than others . Also, if you agree with me on kennedy. I think that, was the whole joints of staff wanted to go to war. Did he actually save the world . John f. Kennedy, coming in seventh in the category of crisis leadership. Eighth overall in the rankings. The top for farmers and crisis leadership, Abraham Lincoln, George Washington, fdr, Theodore Roosevelt, harry truman, Dwight Eisenhower and john kennedy. Amity shlaes, to karens question . Thank you for that question. We all do know about kennedy and that feat of averting war. But there are different kinds of crises. If you favor only one kind of crisis as a crisis and Foreign Policy, you also want to look at domestic crises, such as covid. There, there are really two philosophies. Not all crises demand activity. Some demand restraint. You can see in the poll, here im going to top my book and talk about coolidge. Coolidge was a president who held back in a crisis. There is a terrible flood in the south, terrible flood in his home state in new york, in vermont, and he held back. He didnt jump in, because he believed the state should handle the crisis. Americans both want president s to jump in in domestic crises and dont. So, that is the division. Our heart is divided because our history is divided. We have a system of federalism. When people voted on Crisis Management, it did depend somewhat on their philosophy. Do you always jump in in a crisis . You always jump in in a certain way . Or do you hold back . Is that good Crisis Management . To me, that is the big question. For what its a definition of crisis and what is the definition of the correct response. Is it always fix it . That was a nice transition to Calvin Coolidge, by the way. I should note, amity shlaes, on the chair of the board of trustees of the Calvin Coolidge president ial foundation. What should people know about Calvin Coolidge, who dont know much about Calvin Coolidge . Well, im proud to say im broadcasting right from vermont and we have events going on right now at Plymouth Notch, Calvin Coolidges home village. Guess what, we should remember, today is coolidges birthday he is the only president born on the fourth of july. Last night, we had a coolidge reenactor and coolidge speeches and a coolidge birthday cake. I hope, that now that the countrys opening up, people come to the state historic site. Coolidge was a very specific federalist, so his family liked the state to be has government. The state is our site where the Coolidge Foundation is also located. I hope you come another year to celebrate his birthday with us on the fourth. Coolidge foundation dot org is the website. Born on the fourth of july Doug Brinkley, want to take the trivia, which president died on the fourth of july . Well, its john adams and Thomas Jefferson. They were adversaries throughout life. Theyre both the great founders of our nation. We should be celebrating Thomas Jefferson today, author of the declaration of independence. But ironically, jefferson, on its tombstone in charlottesville, virginia, did not want to be known as the president of the United States. He is more proud of altering the declaration and of being a founder of the university of virginia, and other aspects of his career. Jefferson, i always think, should be a little higher than he has been coming out recently in these polls. Because of the one big thing he did, the louisiana purchase. When you double the size of america in one swoop of diplomacy, its such a large, Game Changing event, which jefferson did. But alas, one of the things i want viewers to understand is that jefferson doesnt get credit in the pole for doing the declaration of independence. Because that was before he became president. So, youre just focusing on the president s. On the fourth, john adams and jefferson, one of their what i call low simmering intellectual feuds was, where did the American Revolution start . Adams always believed it began with the boston tea party. And the boston massacre. That it really began in massachusetts. And jefferson cling to the idea that it was Patrick Henry who launched it in virginia. So, they had an intellectual dispute over the origins of the American Revolution. But their letters to each other should be mandatory reading. I consider them foundational texts. My foundational text i mean the u. S. Constitution, declaration of independence, bill of rights. But i would look to see at the Wynn Jefferson adams letters who both died on the fourth, as volumes to tell us how in a democracy you can hammer at each other, and these very ugly and difficult elections but still become friends. And still promote american democracy. In recent, years weve seen people like bill clinton become very good friends with George Herbert walker bush. And actually, george w. Bush for that matter. And gerald ford, who Richard Naughton smith is writing a magnificent biography of. Ford and jimmy carter became incredibly close, even though they ran against each other in 1976. But on this fourth of july, we should really celebrate Calvin Coolidge. I wish i was up there, at Plymouth Notch in vermont. But its also important wherever you are in the country to thank the founders for having the ideas of creating the United States of america. This remarkable democracy that we all love and share so much. Thomas jefferson, ranked number seven on this year survey, ranked number seven and every survey weve done. Stability of the top and bottom of this historian survey of president ial leadership. Abraham lincoln, coming in first place every time weve done it. All four times. Teddy roosevelt in fourth place all four times. At the bottom, the last three, pierce, johnson and buchanan. That is always the bottom three in these surveys. Taking your phone calls about it, letting you talk to our panel of historian i series. Richard norton south, you want to take larry out of petersburg, illinois, independent . Yes, good morning, everyone. Appreciate the chance to be talking to all of your guests this morning. I wonder, we were talking earlier about the rankings and how they change. I would like some opinion on whether or not these historians think that its possible that our media is actually part of why we see a fluctuation overtime. In the polling. For instance, but the information that theyre putting out at the current time, they can affect how people are thinking and maybe even historians. But then later on, when the facts are more available, we get a totally different outlook. Thanks for the question. Richard norton smith . Thats an excellent question. When i was the ripe old age of ten, there was a book published called, when the cheering stopped. And it reflected, i think, probably the prevailing view in the academy. It was a book about the last years of woodrow wilson. But the years, after his crippling stroke. It was a very sympathetic account, its been a while since i read it, but i dont think there is any reference to the issue of race. And wilsons segregationist views, wilson very much a southerner of the post civil war decker generation. In fact, because we looked at wilson, and the media reflected it. Hollywood made a movie in 1944 caldwells. And i can guarantee you there is nothing there about wilsons racial attitudes. Well some of the scene as a heroic, figure the creator of the new frontier. The champion of the league of nations, a visionary. The fact of the matter is, even now, for the last hundred years, american president s, most of them have been will sonias and their approach to Foreign Policy. Believing that the United States had a particular moral obligation as a great global champion of democracy. Ironically, much of the criticism aimed at wilson today is because of the discrepancy between that democratic vision that he pursued on global scale and the commitment to jim crowism that characterized his presidency. So, it is certainly true that the media, in a broader sense of the word, they do in many ways provide the context and the effect of the priorities that we as historians tend to hold most significant at any particular given moment in time. Doug brinkley mentioned your work on that biography of gerald ford. Gerald ford, coming in at 28 on this years list. Not to put you on the spot, but when are we going to be able to get your hands on what youve been working on . Hopefully, i just wrote page 833 yesterday, got 100 to go. Certainly sometime next year. Next, year of course, its hard to believe, next june is the 50th anniversary of the original watergate breakin. From, which in many ways, all of our history since stems. That seems to be a pretty good pub date for a big, no, in some ways revisionist, biography of gerald ford. Im pretty sure i can get you an interview on cspan one that comes out. So, look at for that. Edna greene medford, you have russell edit south carolina, democrat. Good morning. Russell, you with us . Got a stick by your phone. Charlie in new york, a republican. Go ahead. Yes, good morning. I have a question and a statement. My question is, does your survey have barack obama ranked above Ronald Reagan . No, no. Ronald reagan comes in just before obama. Your statement is what . There was Something Else there. Late statement is, lets look at President Trumps accomplishment. His cutting of taxes and regulation had the economy booming. The lowest Unemployment Rate for blacks and hispanics in our history. For the first time in our history, more women were participating in the workforce than ever before. Its significant his acknowledgment of jerusalem as the capital of israel, he moved the embassy there. His reform of criminal justice had black people released from prison. And you have him ranked that number 41, its absurd. Thats charlie in new york. Yes, so, as i indicated, these are very subjective rankings. Depending upon the individuals philosophy, political and otherwise. So, it can be very different depending on who is actually voting and who is actually ranking in this instance. Ill repeat again, it was a very diverse group. So, there would have been both democrats and republicans, liberals and conservatives, men and women. It was racially diverse as well. It is what it is but. I may take an opportunity but to a question about the media. I think its important to remember that the media always plays a role in what were thinking of the people who are our leaders. But we need to remember that we are in a moment and there is a very important social movement. A movement for social justice. And so, some of these people, especially those who are in the middle and are gaining over the years, its occurring because they are getting higher scores. And in the pursuit of justice for all americans. I think that this years a shows that especially. So, whether someone comes in first or 41st or 44th, it has more to do it has to do with not just how they did with the economy, how they did with international relations, but its also about administrative abilities. Its about whether or not they were looking at the country from the perspective of all of its citizens. On that category, pursuit equals justice for all. That is one of the ten categories we asked our historians to rank the president s on. A lot of movement particularly in pursuing that category grant and coolidge, all getting the category for the last time they were right. Several that fell. Cleveland, jackson, madison, nixon, monroe, jefferson. Talk about the president to fill the farthest in that category, woodrow wilson. Which i will say in 20 sonic category two 37th in the survey. Wilson is the president who made the statement, supposedly, that Birth Foundation a very racist depiction of reconstruction was history rich with lightning. He was someone who had a very negative attitudes about people of color and minorities in general. His administration was occurring at the time when there was an assault on immigrants, especially immigrants in southEastern Europe, so there was a lot to praise him for but there is a lot to hold him accountable for as well. President s are leaders in the nation are just politically but people Pay Attention to have what they say, what they do, what their attitudes are. I think were at a point in history where we understand how race has played a role in this country. We have president s who are divisive in that way. They are going to get lower ratings and that affects i mentioned Calvin Coolidge, so i should come up in that category of pursuing equal justice for all. From 34th in our last survey to 24th this year. Yeah, that is very interesting. We think coolidge was not a bad civil rights president. Actually a good one. He made native americans citizens for example, when he signed that into law. The soft nighter act. He said if all men are equal, that is final. That is, he really believed in looking past differences to look came past differences of all citizens. I think some of the hostility to him before is that he signed a restrictive immigration act, the johnson redact. It depends whether how you cant equal justice, whether you include new immigrants and who we should take of, who was first. He was not a bigot, he just thought america had limits when it thought when it came to immigration at certain points in the history. I want to make a second point about the media. The media are just people, as historians are. They are affected by education. One of the things ive noticed in my recent work is the shift in secondary school education. That affects the media, particularly when people dont go on to study history at university. The National Association of scholars recently posted a survey of secondary school test specks, ap textbooks, and regular textbooks on American History. When i went through them with my research colleagues, what we found was the textbooks were rather skewed left. That is, there was a sense of trashing, often, in the histories which was disappointing. Historians are not politicians, they are analysts. The books were too far over left, by which i mean they did not accord with reality. Second factor, why the, way regarding secondary School Textbooks and talk about the National Association of taller survey, is that they are hard to learn from because they spam of the student with facts and factoids as they tend to favor multi media, going line, do this interactive exercise on a portal. You have the feel like that kids memorize the facts and half to get a general leftwing message but dont get a coherent history or even a coherent picture of an individual president s performance. If you have a year upon year of disappointing secondary School Textbooks, you are going to see the result all over the culture and not just in the media. I come to the Rice University professor and get your reaction to that. I agree with that Doug Brinkley yeah, i agree completely with what was just said. I think that what is changing now is that there is a sort of opening up of the narrative that is starting in schools that is, for example, when obama was president we saved new National Monuments in places like stonewall, new york, for lgbtq people. We put Buffalo Soldiers for black americans who fought in the army. We did Cesar Chavezs home was saved. Bears years it for native americans in utah. The point is, the narrative is opening up and we are starting to look now not just as a patriarchal, white, male dominated society, we are looking at the number of women and minorities that are taking part in this survey have a new kind of lens. A new sensitivity. The reason Calvin Coolidge has risen thomas because he gets high marks overall for president when they are operating in their prime on race. Race matters now, but he one of the recent grand has gone up is because people are looking at his view on race like rodrigo wilson. Incidentally, which are wilsons problems not just birth of a nation. He tried to disenfranchise or lower pay to African Americans that worked in the federal government. He seemed to be bending that arc of justice back words in the wrong direction. I think all work certainly and here, but theres definitely race matters and you can see obama coming in a ten. Of course he gets a perfect score on dealing with issues of civil rights and race, that helps him. If youre looking at somebody like obama who served two terms, was largely scandal free, got america out of the great recession, was able to through operation afternoon spear kill osama bin laden, halo general motors. He was the first nonwhite male president we have had. He is president of great significance and i am beginning a lot of people are under shooting him at number ten or lower. Hes always gonna be seen as a very significant precedent. I stress the two terms. Yes, we have had good oneterm president s. George Herbert Walker bush was only lightly one term, but when he oversaw the golf war that was successful, the liberation of kuwait. German reunification, the breakup of the soviet union. I mean, the Foreign Policy of bush 41 was phenomenal where he goes downwards is when he does domestic. The economy started to be very woeful in 1992 and he got attacked by pat buchanan from the right and then ross perot from a thirdparty and bush didnt become a two term or. He doesnt rise as what. Youre getting first polling moment. When youre reelected or not. If the American People thought he did a good job, he would get reelected. He is ranked very high, but you get a great advantage if you put together two terms like the way howard did or obama dead. In the case of kennedy he wasnt eclipsed president s but some of our categories were not in kennedys favor when dealing with certain regulations he was phenomenal. He invented the modern press conference. When you look at things like public persuasion, stunning. You could have 70 approval rating, bipartisan support for the nasa moon shot. We talk about Crisis Management, not just cuba, berlin crisis. His institutional legacy. He created the seals, the green beret, he did the Nuclear Test Ban treaty before jack kennedy we were blowing up atomic bonds in nevada and people were getting sick from downwind. We Start Building up even though kennedy had a short presidency, you start to see real achievements but what is unfortunate is that somebody who is a wonderful person, james garfield, was assassinated and he never had a chance to really track as president so you start to see him in a low swap. Its all required fair to him because he never had an opportunity to put together a normal term. To the lone star state, home of a couple president s, frank in louisville texas you are on. Richard smith, you have frank. I pray create this, here. Can you hear me okay . Okay. Number one, i think trump should have been a lot higher than number 41, okay . This is for the panel. I want to know how political this survey was and any on the anybody on the panel, what the percentage of leftwing democratic historians voters was compared to the percentage of the right wing republican historian voters. Did we ask Party Affiliation when we selected the 142 historians for this . We certainly made a very deliberate effort to, as i say, diversify and recognize implicit in what the caller was saying is that traditionally, historically, as i said earlier just as amity talked about leftleaning textbooks, about academics and particularly those who studied the presidency. Especially the political sides have tended to lean in the same way. Interestingly enough, and this by the way can begin. The survey, if you look at the steady growth of the size of the diversity represented in this there has been a very significant effort and i would argue a successful effort to incorporate more conservative voices. The terminology that the collar uses and, obviously i respect his viewpoint, a goes back to what i talked about earlier. He talked about left wing historians or rightwing historians. Wow, thats what reflects a red and blue dividing line, if you will in our politics. Presumably, it is presumed, in our academics. Again, i think it makes the case for just how provisional rankings are when you look at a president who is still very much very much a political figure. One of things thats interesting about President Trump which most his predecessors one of the recent present president s have to rise in these rankings overtime is because they ceased to be active political partisans. They become elder statesman, if you will. Doug mentioned the friendship developed between president bush and president clinton. You couldnt really imagine that happening while they were in office or what they were contending as political adversaries. They become involved in charitable work and, in effect, they graduate from the role of daytoday polarizing partisan figure to this ill defined role of elder statesman. Itll be very interesting from what we can tell President Trump sees himself as a contender in this outfit. He has no intention of retiring the president ial library like much of his predecessors, therefore he remains a polarizing figure as the polls this morning suggest. That may or may not influence, off to say, the next poll of historians. For viewers on social media who are asking about survey participants. That information is available on our website and thats at cspan dot org slash president s survey 2021. Thats where you can go, you can look up all of the survey participants and deep dive into the methodology. The slides we have been showing you breaking down the various scores by president are all available on cspan dot org. We are entering our second hour of the discussion. It is our Fourth Survey of president ial leadership, our historian survey. We are joined this morning by our panel of historian advisers. Again, its Doug Brinkley a Rice University joining from texas from michigan. Richard norton smith joining volume, and many chalets, and Edna Greene Medford to take more phone calls. The second hour may be appropriate in that our caller in the shower, first our, comes from anthony lincoln. Lincoln placed four first in all for the surveys. A republican, good morning today. Good morning. I would like to, first say that i dont fit nearly on any box. I am republican. My family has been republican since emancipation proclamation, although the current state of my party, the party of lincoln seems to be frank around the edges to say the least. Things that i just thought about while listening to your show this morning this insurrection that occurred to january six sixth. I tied that to whats triggered regarding the tanks relating to the tea party in this in White American voters, if he will. Trump is very grievance. I started to think about this. With all the African Americans have been through, fought from the birth of this country through the civil war, world war i, two, and every sleight of hand from the tuskegee experiment to tussle, oklahoma and thousands of other incidents of degradation in violence that we have experience on this country. Now one time did we marked the steps of the capital with malice. We went with our hands out in our hearts open to what march on washington with dr. King, but not once did it ever occur to the African American diaspora in this country to walk up those steps and desecrate the capital. It has a lot, unspoken of. There is a gentleman with a book out about Vice President jackson say, you can really judge by their face, can you . I can. Because the bible hasnt changed. Rioters right, wrong is wrong. Wright was right and wrong was wrong. Thats tonight in illinois this morning. We will go to Howard University associate provost and history professor, edna green medford. Your answer . The interesting thing is that, although there has been oppression throughout the decades in centuries, African Americans still prom believe in the promise of the declaration of independence. We know we were not included in its words, all men are created equal, because most of us were considered property, legally, at that time. We still believe in the promise. We believe that america can do better and will do better, because we believe and understand that although people are concerned about the loss of power, they still know the difference between right and wrong as the gentleman said. They understand that, in america, everyone should be entitled to rise as said. The need to stay in control sometimes it is the overarching factor. The thing that motivates people. We are in a very dangerous point in the history of the country and so we have to decide whether or not we are going to move forward and ensure that the promises of of the direct duration, or if we move backwards. It is on us. This generation, to make that determination. You are nodding your head about their, come to your thoughts. We very much agree on that. One of my favorite categories in our poll is the last one. That is, im trying to pull it up, but in the context of their performance within the context of times. Abraham lincoln ranking first there. He also to touch people and we try to dive slim within the context of their times. Did they do what they set out to do and said they would do . What were other people around the president doing at that time . What is valuable in the stability of this all is and it Shows Americans respect that. That is, people usually judge a man or a woman by their own terms. I think that is also what edna is saying, frankly. There are some presentism, some now on us in this poll. Yeah we care more as americans about civil rights more than we appear to care formally, therefore we judge slightly differently. There are still respect for the effort, that is very, very important. Professor medford, back to you, would you agree . Absolutely. I get that all the time, to. You have to judge the person according to the times. So, if you are talking about slave holders of the president s that is what everyone was doing during that period. Not everyone was doing that during that period. There were people who are abolitionist. I can judge them based on human rights. I can look at George Washington and say he did a wonderful thing in terms of not trying to secure power onto himself and the presidency. He couldve done that, because he was the first. He could have tried to do that. I can appreciate all that he meant to the country and all of the cape to the country, but i can still be concerned that this man held over 300 human beings in slavery. While he was president. I can do the same with Thomas Jefferson. Thomas jefferson is writing the declaration of independence, talking about the equality of all men, but he too is Holding People in slaved, large numbers of people, enslaved. Is it a hypocrisy or what exactly is it . Did they mean what they were saying . How could they actually hold human beings as property while fighting for their own liberty. I dont think that its possible to separate the man or the woman from their personal actions and what they are doing for the country. Declaration of independence, sign on this day, july 4th, 1976. Reprinted on the back page of the New York Times sunday opinions section, the words written by how much our son. We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happen happiness. Doug brinkley . It really is. I read the declaration every 4th of july, my particular habit. It was really like a press release, the declaration of independence. Think of how the original one had two names on it. John hancock and Charles Thompson, that great signing ceremony comes later. I imagine this announcement at Independence Hall in philadelphia, a whole new countries being created, the United States. The british lacked that and said we want to arrest hancock and thompson for treason and hang them. Alas, the country, the 13 colonies, pulled together and the American Revolution gave us our first president. The one thing that everybody agreed on is that George Washington did such an amazing job of winning the war not the combination culmination at the battle of your town in virginia became the unanimous choice. It was Charles Thompson who was secretary of Continental Congress who went to mount vernon, virginia, and told washington that you are going to be the first president. Washington was reluctant. He wanted to stay and work the land and enjoy his life in northern virginia. Alas, he got on a horse and did the famous ride from virginia to new york city. If you go there today to federal hall in wall street and i urge everybody that goes to new york city to visit federal hall. It is the birthplace of the bill of rights and the spot where washington caught our first and our coral with thompson at his side. Washington did one of the great things that president , which really is the spirit of the decoration, the spirit of democracy. People begged him to stay on. He was reuniting the country by his president s seeing an after two terms he said im going to step back. If i keep saying in, it will be more likely a monarchy. His quitting of the president is seen as one of the great president ial acts in u. S. History. That is why washington, we could spend hours on, always hangs in there at that number two spot. Really, our top three president s, lincoln, washington, fdr, are just so remarkable. When we are talking about Crisis Management and think about what fdr did during world war ii and the amount of leaders that he picked like nimitz, king, paton, mcarthur, marshall, the team that he assembled. I think it is the High Water Mark of american industry, the winning of the Second World War ii. Fdr could be number one. Some people would think that he could be above lincoln. When you are dealing with those top president , we really have a lot to be thankful for. I just came back from north dakota on moderate by the western edge of montana, theyre building that deal or perhaps roosevelt president ial library there. Saved acres while america leaving our monuments wildlife refuges. All these people going camping and exploring wild america over the fourth of july, you would have Theodore Roosevelt to thank for it. He injected conservation as the main premise of his presidency from 1901 to 1909. I get tired of just talking about donald trump, personally. He was impeached twice, lost by 10 million votes. He was a disruptor, not a uniter. It seems to be obvious he wasnt going to be ready is much more interesting to talk about fdr, Ronald Reagan, the two Times Nuclear bomb pins with the world in the way he was able to do with incredible diplomacy with gorbachev. There isnt a conservative icon and coolidge for greatness. When raegan left office, people thought he was a polarizing president. That he was a conservative. You could see napoli this the scholars, people who study the presidency recognize he left america a better place, biologic, wednesday looks at the cold war, for him policy. I think theres a lot of fairness in the poll. I dont loops or right left vote thing. Are you calling a democrat a republican . I think these voters fall when the universities but they went to have studied and theyre giving their honest opinion on these surveys, not playing too much baseball. You bring up right again, its tough on twitter and several comments on twitter. So even on to many of them this morning, but she writes it on twitter that the placement of regular number eight hes acting on when im on this latest list. He says it is outrageous. His supply side economic principle continues domination. He had the inf treaty into terms of singular treatment. He was mentally out of at the last two or three years, is what steve writes. Top 15 maybe, but not top ten. Richard norton smith on Ronald Reagan. Well, again. It illustrates the fact that it has been 40 years since Ronald Reagan took the oval office. Even people who disagree vehemently with him accord him the status of a consequential president. He would not transformative president. What do i mean by that . President roosevelt changed the whether they like it or not, whether they voted for him or not, recognize that there was a fundamental change underway in the relationship between the average american in the government. What about first by the great passion, then by the Second World War. In much the same way, Franklin Roosevelt consensus about the role of government prevailed for arguably 40 years. Ronald reagans great claim at this point to historical stature, to his standing at the top is that he brought about in his own time, and for the next 40 years arguably as great a change in the political consensus. We are no longer talking as fdr did i vote centralizing power in washington, personalizing power in the presidency, an activist if you will. Proactive approach to the nations problems. Ronald reagan was talking about government being the problem itself as often as the solution. The really interesting thing is that we are the crossroads, i would argue. 40 years later the reagan consensus. Remember, it was the bill clinton who said they are of Big Government is over. He said thats not that was his Natural Inclination going with an activist temperament. He was also, he recognized as a true politician that he was operating within the limits set by the reagan era consensus. The assumption was that when barack obama became president , that was the end of the era of reagan. I would argue, right now interestingly enough, they are at a crossroads. Theres a real debate going on. There are clearly different views and line by the millennial generation about the role of government and American History is cyclical. It may be that after 40 years, reflexive distrust if you will of government and its capacity to address our woes. For example, global warming. The problems are different and not surprisingly, overtime Public Attitudes may involve a lot of those problems. But 45 minutes left in this segment in this july 4th edition of the what sheen tinge are no. We have been showing lost two hours of our program talking about cspans survey of historical president ial leadership, hundred 42 point historians participating. Allowing you to call in tasked with those results. Upon the west coast out of chico, california, is wanda. Line for republicans, want to good morning. God you yesterday they were supposed to be a rally on youtube. They were supposed to cover the trump rally, but they backed out for political reasons. The valley was shown on rumble, competing with youtube, and then over 400,000 viewers. Do you have a question about the survey . We have a panel of advisers for the survey here to talk about. This is my comment about the survey. I am saying that i dont think any of the heroes that you like to put at the top could get and ocampo a bunch of media elite, big head, all right. A democrat, next. Happy fourth of july. Awesome panel of historians, thank you so much for taking my call. I know your survey is about Ground Breakers and innovators and basically just great leaders. President s not have to increase rights for a more perfect union. That is who it seems to be at the top of your survey. I hate to get back to this, but these are times unfortunately im just wondering, it seems like everything is going back to donald trump because he is the 10,000 pound elephant in the room. I just dont see how he even made it to number 41 on your list with the insurrection, friends with the worst leaders in our world. He should be dead last on your list and, if you make a list of worst president he should be right at the top. He grabbed women without their permission, he has no moral, no standards, no ethics, no values. He should be at the very bottom of any list that any makes good president s, that puts could president at number one. He was garbage for president. Moral authority is one of those categories that we asked our panel of advisers, hes going to persuade in the survey, to rank president on. Let me give you the top ten in moral authority. It is Abraham Lincoln, George Washington at the top, Franklin Roosevelt, Dwight Eisenhower, then Theodore Roosevelt, barack obama, jimmy carter, john adams, harry truman, amity shlaes on the top performers and moral authority. George w. Bush used to always say i have a finite Political Capital and i need to be able to spend it all. Why is scandal bad . Because scandal takes away Political Capital or moral authority. We see that in a few president s, lately, where they got distracted or created distractions and therefore werent able to get legislation through. Think about president clinton who probably wouldve got his Health Care Legislation if they hadnt had various scandals. Some of that is their fault. American tennis in this poll at least recognize the discipline it takes to be precedent. What you have to put away, put down to max out on your commitment to the party platform. Its very interesting to see the thinking on that and when you go back what surprising is that that moral authority question is sometimes trumped by other concerns. Grant went out because of civil rights, even though he squandered his Political Capital and lost moral authority. Most of the time, though, what. Im seeing is people respect, historians respect, a moral authority. Not because the authorities are pretty but because they want president s to be able to execute on what they said they would execute. Thats part of being an executive in history. Todd in evans ville, wisconsin. A republican, good morning. Good morning. The last time i called in was in president sday a couple years back and don brinkley with us on talking about the last survey. The discussion at that time was, apparently after 25 years president ial papers are more accessible and im thinking, mr. Brinkley said this morning that hes tired of talking about donald trump. At that time, when that survey came out, a lot of the discussion was about obama and really a lot of the survey seems to be a discussion of current politics rather than Historical Context for president s. If there is a delay in evaluating current president s i wonder if youd have a more valuable discussion, just look at the movement of bush 43 to that point. I want to finally get some reaction to that . Doug brinkley, we will let you respond. That is a very fair point and i think richard was talking about that. We have had had to decide to include all president s review. Putting 20, 25 a year rule on it. We had to make a decision and we went with inclusion. Yes, obama got talked a lot about last time and trump right now. In the course of this fourth of july ive been working really hard to talk about jefferson and fdr in washington and lincoln and some of the others, because i find whats funny about this poll are some of the president s we dont talk about a lot or think about. Jimmy carter was just mentioned a moment ago for moral authority. Hes not ranked very high, but per se john quincy adams, but both of them had such extraordinary acts presidencies. Carter won the nobel prize and took on guinea worm disease and river blindness and organizing free and player elections. John quincy adams, an abolitionist out of the white house i believe Something Like 16 years in congress. So, there are huge figures as human beings, john quincy adams, carter, but they are performance is not as high as some of these houser particular president s that we are seeing. The 25 year rule is a good one. I wish it could be ten years and, incidentally, with cotton ash market its truly are getting the papers these days. You dont have enough staff and you really have to wait in order to be able to resurrect those. So if you watch. Why does one president timing up over another . Wrote this amazing biography of grant and it mattered. People read it. Bill clinton actually reviewed it in the cover of New York Times book review. Suddenly, everyone started reassessing grant. A new biography on coolidge or terrible forward or carter could work its way into people ive heard ive been calling it the media but books, books matter. David mccullough wrote a biography of harry truman and harry truman started moving into one of the top ranked president s. Right now its very ripe for somebody to do a book on James Madison and dolley madison. I think reallooking madison in the war of 1812, the right book because he wrote so well and he has been underestimated as president. He might start seeing that madison rise. The initial point, to weigh 20 years . Lets get a decision we made. We didnt want to start excluding president s so we decided to include them all. Books matter. I think our friends over at cspan twos book tv might have their new promotion clip for Doug Brinkley just now. Joining us from downstairs in our studio at cspan, i want to talk to you about that building over my shoulder just down the street from us here at cspan and congress. When those categories we ask historians, to rate on the president on is their relations with congress. One of the slides we have is how recent president s have moved in that category on relations with congress. Appointed george w. Bush moving from 36 to 21 in this recent survey. A lot of movement when judged about relations with congress in and somebody like Richard Nixon is down eight spots from 30 to 38. What do you find interesting in that category of relations of congress . Its a difficult category because we are kind of making the president responsible for how Congress Responds to what that particular president is attempting to accomplish. For instance, in the case of obama, he had so much trouble with Republican Party especially he italics double for that as opposed to congress. Of course on the survey we have no way of saying that he is that the responsibility of congress to try to work with the president when they have the possibility. What we are seeing in terms of those making gains is an understanding of that, that the president may have done the best he could to try to compromise and try to work with congress and congress was just very resistant. So im hoping that, and im assuming it is happening, that as the participants in the survey are looking through these categories that they are understanding that president s may be doing the best they can, especially in that particular category, but they are never going to be able to get a very high score if you have a congress that has determined that no matter what the president is attempting to put forth for the American People that they are simply not going to participate in that. There is such political tribalism in the country today and has been for a long time. You are going to see those kinds of issues developing in that category. Is there an inherent category for a president in the survey if they had divided government ordin here and advantage if they served in a united house senate and presidency under the same party . I think thats absolutely true. Just because the president belongs to the same party as who is actually in control of the senate house of representatives, then things are going to work out for the president needs are. Generally it has been more advantageous to have the same party in power in congress as the president. When you have a situation where you have a party that has decided that no matter what is being put forth, we are not going to give this person a victory. We are not going to ensure the legacy of this person. Then what is president to do about that . Richard norton smith, an interesting question and. Who was the with the worst relations with congress . Well, Herbert Hoover very nearly waft congress halfway through his presidency. Interesting, hoover, taft before him is in a different category. They were not politicians. Hoover had never won for anything before he occupied the ultimate political office. Taft, likewise, someone who said i hate politics and who is obviously as we know now, much happier on the tree judicial branch. There is a question that is actually not really measured in our survey. That is the political temperament, partly political experience. What have i seen our, interestingly enough was a general except he had been a military politician. He demonstrated remarkable skills bringing people a vote will couldnt outsized eagles together to win ruled war to. In some ways, it turned out it had been almost perfect reparation pretty illing with for much of his pack presidency a split congress. He was dealing with the fact of the matter is that those three men decided to work together. It is a very its one of the reasons why people are nostalgic for the 1950s, because you had divided government for most of that era, but government. He issued 66 vetoes, made 54 of them stand despite the numbers in congress. Was he a six asked because of that or was he in fact a failure because he was forced to resort to a veto strategy . That illustrates in a small way the kind of either or nature of a lot of the criteria. Exactly why a survey like this is so interesting. All available at cspan dot org. About a half hour left with our discussion. You have bill in orange park florida, an independent. Good morning. Yes, good morning, can you hear me okay . We do speak up a little . Yes. Can you hear me okay . Yes. Thank you very much for taking my call. What a wonderful conversation we are having here this morning with such learned people. The reason im calling is because i wanted to ask about president grant. I just completed a reading a couple biographies, one by bryan chernow, won by ronald white. Ive also been reading biographies of lincoln and fdr. I feel grant is sort of overlooked in history for his great accomplishments, especially the performance during the civil war and i was wondering if i could get some comments from you regarding his presidency and the fact that he was hailed as a great man during his lifetime. Thank you very much for taking my call. Thank you, i would note that grant is up 13 places in this last survey from last one we did in 2017. From 33 to 20, amity shlaes on ulysses s grant. Theres nothing concerned about civil rights, citizens rights, in the culture now which is merited. To me that would be the biggest factor in the grant rise that we forgive other things because he was a strong general, a genius, and because of civil rights after the civil war. That hes the short answer. Doug brinkley, do you want to expand on that . Yeah, you know i think first of the name is golden. Anybody in new york city knows about grants tomb and his memoir that he wrote, not only about the civil war, was about one of the great documents in history. Grant wrote brilliant battlefield reports and i grew up in ohio so im always proud to claim grant coming from my home state and being born there. Ulysses s grant president ial library in mississippi under the auspices that the battle of vicksburg was a big turning point and i think that library is one of the reasons for grants rise because they are not only getting visitors but starting to digitize a lot of grants writings and thinking. We have a new interest in reconstruction in general right now, people dont realize that in many ways pre gym crow African Americans were being elected to office in the south during this period. During the time of it he had thought cancer in new york. He was so moving that people were coming to see him who are confederates to meet the great man, as well as people who were so proud to have served under grant. Is just a matter of time that grant would get this resurrection. They were plagues of cronyism, administration that i think is hurt grant up until the previous books that the caller has read and books are magnificent, i just read brett bear on fox news right about that will be coming out on grant and he has a pretty big megaphone at fox so im a feeling that grant will be talked about this fall more. That is the life of these there stocks go up and down, theyre a lot of reasons for it. Bill clinton, for example, a two term president. When you argue he was the most effective president of our time. 2000, after two terms we had a balanced budget but a surplus. We had nato expansion, democracy was on the role, you know . No one has done a big book on clinton because Hillary Clinton got into the mix and she didnt win and now the me too movement hurt clinton on why he was impeached. He is somebody who is right for revision if it happens, but it would come by way of documentary in the new book probably. Not from political process saying or because he is really, after Hillary Clinton lost, retired from that. So we got a big book and clinton . You will see clinton eyes a bit. I appreciate you getting the grants commentary without a who good morning, thank you for taking my call and happy fourth everybody. Same to you. Thank you. This is a great survey and the panel is exceptional. My question regards like the categories and which categories, if there are any particular one, that each of the panel kind of finds more important at the top four looking at president s . I want to say to the 4th of july, i have two kids who share birthdays with president s Calvin Coolidge and john quincy adams. We always tell them that they have president ial birthday bodies and thats how we are learning and teaching about the president and staff. So youre teaching the children right. Of those ten categories, i will read them again. Public persuasion, leadership, Crisis Management, economic leadership, international relations, administrative skills, relations with congress, vision setting an agenda, pursued equal justice for all, performance within context of times. Is there one that is more important to you than the others . I would have to say that there are two that are very important to me. Those two are moral authority and pursuit of equal justice for all. If i had to choose one of those two, it would be the pursuit of equal justice for all. As americans we are very diverse nation. We have to be more inclusive than we have been if we are going to remain a strong nation. Our political leaders have to understand that and move forward to try to make that happen. Especially on this day. You can trust the opportunity to reflect on where we have been and where we need to go. And weve done a lot, accomplished quite a bit, but we are not there yet. You talk about lincolns unfinished work. We are definitely trying to finish that work. That to, lincoln was so much enamored with the declaration of independence because what it suggested was that all men and women, we are including more people now, thankfully, that all americans have the right to do the very best that they can. To do the opportunities to improve their lives. If a political leader is not doing that, if a political leader is divisive or only looking at one segment of the American Population that he, hopefully she someday, can not to just that that person is doing their job. Some of the most important thing, a political leader can do i believe and certainly that the president can do is to ensure inclusiveness in the society. I want to quickly get an answer to shawns question from the rest of the panel. Richard norton smith, hes the one individual leadership characteristic that is more important to you than the other nine on the list . I would certainly agree with edna about the points. Pursuing equal justice. I dont know, 20 years ago when we were creating all of this and trying to decide among ourselves what would be the appropriate criteria i can guarantee you that was added and not a factor by large. That was taken into consideration by the traditional polls before 2000. Specifically, the last category which we see as a catchall the performance within the context at times, that matters. The presidency in the 19th century is a very Different Office from the presidency in the 20th century. The presidency in the age of a day you may be different from the presidency in the age of television. James monroe could be reelected almost unanimously in the middle of the first Great Depression in American History. 100 years later, Herbert Hoover is still stigmatized and personally linked to the Great Depression that began during his presidency. Expectations of president s change and there are four definitions of president ial performance must also evolve. You bring up the idea of presidency in the age of twitter. We will hold on to that question. Amity shlaes, is there one question more important in the others in this ranking . I will say, i dont think its more important, but i think it will go unmentioned and therefore i will mention it. Economic management. President s look good when the times are good. Did they make the times good . Did they inherent the times . That is always the question. I am very glad to see that category and there. I think it could use, in history departments if not on the whole, wider expansion and discussion. For example. Here i will say slightly contentious, Franklin Roosevelt did not bring roosevelt below 10 . Was he a good economic manager or not . He was an inspiring economic and manager and a good leader. He was a good admiral, commander in chief, but you could raise a question about his economic management. The gap between the inspiration and the reality. What was the nature of the Great Depression . Was it so bad that roosevelt did pretty well or was it so bad because that administration contributed to the great . That question is discussion within the American Mind without trump, without obama, looking back at data points and history. I am very glad its included and im very glad. I would also say that we are looking at history. The joke about history is that we dont skate to where the pocket is going to be as and wayne grant ski, dog you player. We can skate to where the park was in the past. This endeavor its a lovely, wordy, thoughtful endeavor that can enrich our political conversation if we allow it to. History is on the defensive nail. Politics and Political Science are pushing it down, so whats glorious about this poll is that it looks and history. We didnt cancel any president s, they are all in there. We consider them thoughtfully and with data. Doug brinkley, its one category more important than the others . I would say crisis leadership. In that aspect i would say Abraham Lincolns remarkable in how he pulled the country together when we were divided after imagining president of the United States and lincoln wasnt even on the ballot in southern southern states. Now hes in washington in the battle of bull run, the confederates won the first run, thats what Dallas Airport is today. Maryland was the hotbed of secession. It was beyond a crisis, it was the utter unraveling of america. In the end, 600,000 americans died, hundreds of thousands wounded and maimed from the war. It was a crucible and lincoln pulled our country together. He pulled us through it and gave us foundational texts like i dance second inaugural and the gettysburgs address, the emancipation proclamation. Crisis management, lincoln number one. I would put that in as number two. Franklin d. Roosevelts ability to guide us through world war ii. The genius that he was of creating industrial mobilization and recognizing that world war ii wasnt just going to be won on an island in the pacific. World war ii flashback islander the pacific or a battle in europe, but that is going to take place in detroit and newark. The shipyards in san diego and seattle, meaning that the home front organizing to win the war and pull the country together. We are all in it. The president ial Crisis Management was astounding anti put lincoln fdr in that particular category of Crisis Management. Very, very high and important on our categories that we look at. Thanks for sharing this bring a good discussion this morning. Mike, warren, ohio, republican. You are next. Good morning. Good morning, happy Independence Day to my fellow americans. What a great panel. What a great channel. I would like to quickly dispute, very respectfully, mr. Brinkley. I think the end of world war ii i believe fdr kind of gave a lot of Eastern Europe away to stalin. I have a real problem, fdr, a number three. I recently finished miss slates forgotten man and, though fdr comes out really friendly with his fireside chat, according to your book niche lays he was going after kosher chicken butchers in new york city. He spent years going after andrew mellon, causing him just spent many thousand dollars of his fortune on legal fees and i just wonder, personally, what miss chalets where you believe fdr should be on the list of where you have him . I also would like to say, mr. Smith, i had the opportunity to see you speak in warren, ohio. It was a very informative and humorous presentation. Once again, let me thank the panel and i will take the answer off the air. Thank you so much, happy Independence Day to all of you. Goodbye. Thank you, michael. Amity plays on the forgotten man. I will its very fast. Franklin roosevelt, low on akon and higher on Foreign Policy. It is 202. 202 7488001 for republicans who want to join in the last ten or 15 minutes here, democrats 202 7488000 202 7488002. Doug brinkley Edna Greene Medford come back to you. In light of the discussion of Abraham Lincoln being so high on our list and being bracketed by the president s who are loose on our list. Why is that . Is that surprising to you that the best president falls right between that works . Not in the least. There is a reason for that. These are all mid 19th century president s. The three that are at the bottom of the list our president s who were faced with a crisis and did not manage it well. Pierce just stands by as the countrys unraveling. He perhaps could have done something, he is the person who is there in the middle of this whole debate over the expansion of slavery. In the 1850s, he allows the kansas nebraska act, while its past, pearce doesnt attempt to challenge that. Youve got buchanan, who is sitting by as the country gets closer to war. He doesnt do anything to stop it. You have lincoln coming in, he has a decision. Can either allow the confederacy to go its merry way or he can try to keep the country together. And he decides to go for broke. He decides that it is important enough for the nation to be preserved. To go to war. And he does that, tremendous loss of life, over 700,000 people die as a consequence. But he also opens the door to ending slavery. And that has a tremendous that is revolutionary. And then, he is succeeded by andrew johnson. Who is not in any way fit to be president at that time. So, it makes perfect sense that lincoln is elevated to number one. Because the country could not have survived without his leadership. And of course, with help from the military. And the American People. But its lincolns leadership that really makes a difference. Not to beat up too much on johnson, but expand on that. Why completely unfit . Why is he always . Last inch or johnson was a southerner from tennessee, a democrat. But someone who remained loyal to the union. But he didnt have the administrative ability that lincoln did. He did not have the vision that lincoln did. He didnt have the moral authority. There is certainly not any consideration of pursuit of equal justice for all people. He just could not function at a time when the nation needed to be healed. The nation needed a much stronger leader, and he simply could not deliver. Do you ever engage in what if history is . What if lincoln had survived . Of course, were not supposed to, but we do. Its a fun thing to do. And probably a little bit different in terms of my historians tend to believe, if lincoln had survived, there wouldnt have been the kinds of tensions and tragedies of reconstruction that occurred. But i beg to differ their. I think that people were so tired of the struggle that he might have been willing to compromise in a way, compromise with the south at least, the former confederacy. In a way that may not have extended rights to African Americans, that were extended because johnson was so incompetent in congress, congress was able, the radicals, republicans and congress, were able to have their way. So, i suspect that the 14th amendment would not have been ratified as early. I dont think the 15th amendment would have been ratified as early. I just think that lincoln would have tried to find a way to compromise with the south. Because he had already indicated, before his assassination, that there should be a more conciliatory stance toward these people. Who had removed themselves from the government. So, Charity Towards all was more compromise and perhaps he could have or should have done . It certainly wouldve included former confederates. He certainly was not pushing them aside, was not throwing them under the bus, so to speak. He would have wanted them to be a part of the government. He certainly did, but he would have wanted African Americans to be a part of this new government as well. Because after, all he was the leader of the Republican Party. And what better group to give the republicans power in the south than those persons who had been formerly enslaved . But i still think it would have taken longer for citizenship to have occurred and for Voting Rights to have occurred for African Americans. I feel like we can do what if history all day, at least another two hours on here. But only a few minutes left, one to get in just a few more colors. Gayle, west berlin, new jersey, democrat. Good morning, you are next. Good morning, thank you, cspan for allowing me to speak. My favorite alltime president was president john f. Kennedy. In my book, he did the most to help people of color. And i wish we could do something as far as to see where this world would have been if john f. Kennedy would have been allowed to live. Where would black people, what would our existence be like in this world . President trump, in my opinion, was the president of the confederacy. I think his Main Objective was to bring the confederacy back into power. And thank goodness that people are waking up and realizing that it is better for our nation as a whole, for blacks to be treated equally and receive the same rights and privileges that weve earned and deserve in this country. That is gayle in new jersey, talking about where jfk ranks in her book. We have a panelist who has written a couple books on jfk, Doug Brinkley. You, know on john f. Kennedy, he ranks very high among the public. He is a loved person, a loved figure. And i think that assassination in dallas, so much was lost. The end of american innocence. The truth that this poll shows was that we kind of had a golden age of president s. Fdr, truman, eisenhower and kennedy are getting very high marks. It seemed things went bad after kennedys death. Now, Lyndon Johnson deserves a lot of credit for the civil rights acts and Voting Rights acts. He did so much with medicaid and medicare, pbs and npr, wild and scenic rivers, created the department of transportation. Ladybird with beautification, we can go on and on. But that vietnam war of johnsons just devastated america. Divided us into these hawks versus doves camps. Now, when we think of, kennedy we realize the promise of america. His challenge in his inaugural speech, one of the great bits of oratory of all time. His American University speech about peace and, as i mentioned before, this banning of testing of nuclear weapons. A great achievement he did with russia and britain, in stopping the atmospheric and underwater testing of nuclear weapons. And so, kennedy has got so much to offer. And being the first catholic president , i think theres a feeling that he broke in shattered that glass ceiling. It had been protestant american figures and then, suddenly, boom, there is john f. Kennedy. So he lives large. Some people have been saying in the press, why is kennedy so high . But when you break down these categories, you will see that he actually was very good in all of them. So, i think hes positioned about right. We can always quibble over who could be eight or nine or ten versus 12. The bottom line is, kennedy is one of the great president s for the ages. Quid bling is our favorite part here, thats why we spend so much time to do this. Time for one more call. We had a call from the land of lincoln, maybe appropriate from july 4th to have a call from revere, massachusetts. Susan, independent, go ahead with your question or comment. Well, i just want to thank this incredible panel. Each and every one of you are just extraordinary americans, it makes me proud to watch you on the fourth of july. So, i could say so many things. I guess i just want to give a shout out im overwhelmed, i can comment on all of them. First, i cant wait to read about gerald ford, the new biography. That will be a thrill for me, i have great admiration for him. I guess i would like to talk about, and i agreed that clinton deserves, despite his personal failures and being overshadowed by the hillary loss et cetera. I guess i would just like to say that id like to focus on bush to, george w. Bush. Who was such a great administrator and a moral person, i think. Ran a tight ship, they think he was charismatic, a skilled politician and could but, you know, the whole idea of foreign interventions and the debacle of the iraq war season, lets take, that we have just about a minute left. I will let Richard Norton take that minute. Well, you know, the caller raises a really important point. One reason i think why the second president bush has raised it in the rankings is applicable to this whole process. That, is when we reassess president s, one of the factors we take into account is how did their successors handle the same issues . For 40 years, every president had to deal with the cold war. Some more successfully than others. President s and their attitude toward israel and the middle east, we have 70, 80 years in which to compare and contrast. The fact that there is a lot of criticism directed at george w. Bush for the original decision to go into iraq. But as time passes, we also look at how his successors have had their own difficulties and dealing with the consequences of that decision. All of, that in subtle ways, its factored into our assessment of bush and you can apply that to issue after issue, president after president. This survey of all the president s, all the former president s, available at our website at cspan dot org slash president survey 2021. I want to thank our panel from texas, Doug Brinkley, professor at Rice University. From michigan, historian and author, Richard Norton smith. Via zoom, historian and author, amity shlaes. And from here in washington, d. C. , professor Edna Greene Medford at Howard University. Thank you all so much for your time this morning