Transcripts For CSPAN3 Wartime Leadership - Lincoln And FDR 20221105

This panel. Im catherine clinton. Im the denman professor of American History at the university of texas in san antonio and is my tag says im on the Advisory Board and im an author and so it is wonderful. Im also a veteran. I was colonel for a year when i taught at the citadel, but today i went to say that im so pleased that were witnessing a great reunion a great kind of reckoning coming up against we have been meeting virtually for the past few months, but isnt it great to be back in person and have an afternoon where we explore such wonderful topics as race and lincoln and leadership in lincoln. Im pleased to report that my intuition is that we will have many more of these wonderful gatherings. And so we have to think historically and in thinking back i wanted to say Jonathan White gave us a wonderful bulletin, so look at what the topics were and in doing it. I see that the chief borrowed my punching lincoln for his collection, and maybe its down in starkville because i gave my first talk here in 2003 lincoln our mortal president , but more seriously it was the scholars who were so supportive of the idea of bringing lincoln and his world alive. They got me started on my lincoln journey and we discussed in the prelude that there can be new meanings to exploring these topics seeing the spielberg film in 2021 and reexamining where we are in the lincoln world in 2021 is so important and i have the great honor of introducing a dynamic duo of lincoln scholarship. Craig simons is a former professor of uverse Naval College a former professor and chair of history at the us naval academy. Census first book on the charleston blockade in 1976. Hes been churning out very accessible and engaging histories, including lincoln and his admirals the civil war at sea distinguished valley volumes on the battle of midway and the oxford university, press world war ii at sea. And as the man who needs no introduction, but its by great pleasure to say that Harold Holzer is the current director of Hunter Colleges roosevelts house Public Policy institute. We know him as so much more. I was first introduced to him by my great friend david donald and of course Jim Mcpherson told me when i called him up about meeting Harold Holzer just do what he says and i think that certainly good advice in the civil war field his number of publications was not yet in the double digits when i met him, but here we are and i do want to say that harold is really excelled in being on panels and as a panelist defendingly constatus and otherwise and from his chair at his Manhattan Institute his interviews or something. We well enjoy i did do account and when i told harold that id counted up twelve solo appearances. He said was that all of course. I informed craig that this is his 10th. Speaking at the forum. So here he is in double digits, and i want to welcome them more as they speak to us on leadership lincoln and fdr lessons in leadership. Welcome our speakers today. I dont like it up in this chair. There we go. Well, thank you catherine. Well do your your account later. Well, we decided i guess. This is not quite a panel discussion. Its like a panolette, right . A conversation and i think we decided to do this not only because we always want to learn from leaders of the past and inform leadership. And whats needed today, but also because craig and i have since weve known each other these many years have turned in Different Directions while remaining in the same fields. Craig has become a scholar of the military of World War Two. Not we dont let him abandon his responsibilities to lincoln in the civil war. And as catherine said i work. In franklin d and Eleanor Roosevelts townhouse in new york city, which is filled with a memories of the transition of 193233. Roosevelts recovery from polio in that house the first fireside chat etc. So i think now that we bridge both worlds we decided it would be an interesting thing to talk about lincoln and and and roosevelt and in cspans most recent historians poll, these two american originals were in the top three as they are among historians. And they have kept their reputation. And as you see on the screen both faced significant crises at the beginning of their presidencies their respected presidencies the image that you see here. Is lincoln in the first year of his presidency . 1861 and roosevelt . Within the first year or two. Im not sure of the data of this one, but early in his presidency. So heres how were going to handle our chat today. Im going to pose a question or a theme an area to discuss. Ill start with a lincoln comment usually and then ill turn it over to craig to answer it and then offer a roosevelt comment and then throw it back to me for a roosevelt rejointer. This this process will last about one and a half questions and then well just be off to the races. So lets start with training and preparation for the presidency this is an Eastman Johnson painting of lincoln. Reading and learning by the by the fire light in one of his cabins and from all accounts. Thats exactly what he did not always sitting on a chair. Sometimes he would put a chair on the floor and lean on the the upside down part of the chair and stretch out and this is a picture of Young Franklin roosevelt at at harvard which he graduated with i guess less than honors, but he contributed lincoln i will say always said he learned by littles only a year of schooling altogether from Itinerant School teachers and lincoln famously said if they knew reading writing and ciphering to the rule of three. They were looked on in the neighborhood as something of a genius a wizard actually. Roosevelt very formal groomed to leadership craig but how what tell us about roosevelt schooling more than i have. Well, i think the one critical difference between the two is that link and lincoln was so desperate for learning. He was he clogged for it. He craved it whenever he could find a book. He treated it as a precious object. It meant so much to him roosevelt, of course had every opportunity. He was i guess one commonality as he was actually what today we would call homeschooled until he was 14, but then he went to Groton Preparatory School which at the time was the top. Prep school for the well to do where he studied under Endicott Peabody and if theres a connection in terms of his later life it may be that Endicott Peabody stressed that it was the duty. It was the obligation of those who were well born and well off to serve the country that a life of service was something for which they should all strive and he was an okay student and he went to harvard because of who he was rather than any particular grade point average where he earned gentlemans seas for the most part and then went to columbia law school. He went there for two years took the bar past. It dropped out of columbia law school. What would be the point of that . I got my law license went to work in new york for a wellheeled law firm. So his path was paved for him. It was relatively easy and i i suspect he did not have the the desperate craving for knowledge and understanding that so characterized Abraham Lincoln. One one point in common, although it skips a generation is that mary lincoln yearn to stay at harvard with robert her son and sarah delano roosevelt, of course did take rooms in cambridge and lived part of the time as close to Harvard Harvard as she could so that might have been a tradition as well and fdr lived quite well at harvard by the way. He had his own set of rooms. He had not only a car he had a boat. I mean who has their own boat at harvard . So it was a very comfortable environment, of course. Mommy was just down the road. So as we talk about their political experience. As young men there there is Something Else in common and that is that they both serve in the state legislature and it grooms them lincoln in the raucous state legislature of illinois as a member of the lower house, which hes instrumental in infrastructure improvements, although it bankrupts the state speaks for the first and only time about the franchise being extended to Women Education is a top priority and interesting legislative career, and i guess we think that the most the most prominent moment in his legislative career comes when he joins a group to move the state capital. Faithfully as it turns out to springfield, illinois roosevelt is you know, hes a progressive. Hudson valley legislator actually wins a long time republican seat for the state senate he does. Well, you know the idea of going into the state legislature was a path. He laid out for himself. He was an enormous admirer. He was almost in awe of the men. He liked to call my cousin teddy actually sixth cousin once removed. So its a pretty distant relationship, but he patterned his political track nevertheless after Theodore Roosevelt later on after he married eleanor. He got to call him uncle he uncle teddy instead of cousin, teddy, but the path into the state legislature and then on to assistant secretary the navy and so on that was modeled, i think quite deliberately on Theodore Roosevelt. Yeah a roosevelt has the advantage of having a Theodore Roosevelt in his family and Woodrow Wilson in his official family and when he serves as assistant secretary of the navy tr does serve as the gives away the bride at his wedding in new york city. In a in a mother and son townhouse near the metropolitan museum of art that gives roosevelts mother the idea. Oh, you can live with your son forever. Im going to build that house. That harolds going to work on working and on 65th street, and thats what inspired to that. Yeah, and of course that wedding was quite an event. I mean, i think Franklin Roosevelt was delighted as he would have did say to have his new uncle teddy giveaway the bride but as soon as Theodore Roosevelt entered the room the entire Wedding Party turned to him and the bride and groomer left standing pretty much alone on the other side of the house and and someone once quipped. Well, you know theodore he has to be the bride at every wedding and the corpse at every funeral so and the baby at every christian the baby in every christening, right . And the only day that the roosevelts could get married by the way was march 17th, because that was Saint Patricks day and tr was going to be the grand. Well, not the grand marshal but be in the grandstand you cant just do a wedding a family wedding on a trip from from new york. Well, heres another thing thats worth comparing. And talking about in terms of both these leaders and that is that they are both tested. With what you might call surprise attacks that launched wars both interestingly have come under questioning by some people in the 20th and 21st century did. Either of them know it was the attack was coming. Does that diminish from their response . So of course on the left, ill start with what is obviously for sumter the bombardment of fort sumter which lincoln doesnt exactly invite but he knows that there will be some action to seize the fort and as it turned out it was a kind of a bloodless loss. The only casualties occurred the day after the bombardment ended. And at the right, i guess that may be the arizona blowing up. Thats actually thats a destroyer shaw. Which can you tell that . Well, its a famous photograph of that particular explosion, but the arizona did blow up as well. It was a terrible catastrophe and its interesting to compare the two because if we talk about lincoln and how cleverly i would argue. He maneuvered Jefferson Davis forced Jefferson Davis into having to make this decision. So he bore the approbium of firing the first shot that had political value for Abraham Lincoln and for the union and his objective, but pearl harbor has led some to say well. We had broken their diplomatic code not their operational code, but theyre diplomatic code. We should have known more than we did not all of the diplomatic papers were shared with the operational commanders and did roosevelt know or even guess that the japanese might do this. I ive looked very hard into this and i dont think you can make that case. I know when he got the phone call at one oclock in the afternoon washington time from the secretary of the navy frank knox. He pounded his left hand down on the desk and said no when he was told the japanese attack pearl harbor, but then he became very calm and began issuing orders gather the cabinet prepare my talk tomorrow, make sure the congress is going to meet in a special session and that calmness after the crisis has allowed some to suspect. Well, you see he saw this coming. I dont think he did. I think he really intended the fleets presence at pearl harbor to be a deterrent to prevent a war not a way to start a war but its a conversation we can have major anderson who was in command at fort sumter . Return to new york city and later wrote that he didnt know whether he was coming back to a parade or a courtmartial. Not carrying the flag of fort sumter with him. Well, guess what . He got. He got a parade. And the flag was draped over the equestrian statue of George Washington that now that still sits in union square park. There was a parade past a jewelry building whose pediment stood until about five years ago around wall street and broadway as the seventh regiment goes off to defend the union and the city is adorned with American Flags. So lincoln seizes victory from the jaws of defeat, what about roosevelt and the days after pearl does he how does he rally the nation and we were allergic to the speech. Yeah. Let me first say that admiral. Kimmel did not get a parade. Yeah, the fall guy after pearl harbor that was but Franklin Roosevelt. As i mentioned just a minute ago shocked as i believe he genuinely was he got a phone call from Winston Churchill who heard about this on the radio. Oh my gosh. What whats this about pearl harbor . What have i heard . And he said yes, its true. Were all in the same boat now roosevelt had been determined to save britain if he could lend lease whatever aid he could provide he comes up with the whole idea of lending a garden hose of your neighbors house is on fire. Well now clearly is the opportunity to provide all the aid that britain needs and the soviet union too for that matter since hitler had invaded the soviet union in june of that year. So this gave him a vision that the war could be one and i think that was just as for lincoln winning the war was first abolishing slavery is great, but youve got to win the war you have to hold a union together or nothing else can happen and i think roosevelt felt the same way about the second world war. And you alluded to the fact that roosevelt quickly asked if he could address a joint session of congress made some key edits in the draft speech that was written for him. This is a day which will live in infamy lincoln the great auditor interestingly makes no public oratorical statements. Yes. He calls for volunteers. Yes. He orders a blockade his special message to congress on the reasons for his executive actions in doing so is delayed until july 3rd or 4th. Its an interesting moment when lincoln decides not to use his communications ability. Well, its interesting on a couple of levels. I mean the United States did not declare war against the confederacy which doesnt exist, but we did declare war on japan just to japan on the 8th of december. Not on germany hitler later declares war on us. You can almost imagine roosevelt going because their whole strategy was based on defeating germany first, but youre right about the edits. You know, he he called missy into his office dictated a speech to her which she then typed out and triple space brought it back and he took a pencil and edited and the original still exists and youre right that first line yesterday, december 7th, 1941 a date that will live in world history. And he looked at that and crossed it out and wrote in infamy so he had away with words as well. Yes, and that leads us to our the next silo of discussion that ive identified here and that is of Course Communications ability and great leaders. I think we all agree. Have to be great communicators, or they dont get their messages across and im going to show two. Moments in communications history, but keep in mind that Abraham Lincoln who . Who rated so ubiquitously in illinois . Is largely silent as president of the United States. He does not make a lot of public speeches. Of course. Were in a village now in which that exception lived in fame but aside from the inaugural addresses one of which i show here, of course the second inaugural there were few moments when were at which lincoln thought it was necessary to appear personally, i think in a way he underestimated his impact. Roosevelt who had difficulty moving about and needed a great deal of help and also some people call it a splendid deception, but at least needed the understanding of journalists and photographers and television reporters movie, you know movie reporters newsreel. Thats the word to not focus on his disability and not capture the awkwardness of his moving into cars or off of trains. He discovered his medium was the radio and here you see him in a 1941 fireside chat one of 28 that he did and the reason i know its 1941 is that hes wearing an armband morning his mother. Who dies and by the way parenthetically the next year roosevelt decides he can never set foot in that New York House again now that his mother is gone. And he offers it. At a very inexpensive price to Hunter College because eleanor has spent a good deal of time at hunter and likes the school. So in the real estate deal of the century Hunter College acquired a property on 65th and park avenue for 60,000. Not bad. Tell us some of the Communications Technologies and and podiums that fdr master youre absolutely right about Franklin Roosevelt in the radio were made for each other in some ways people say jfk was made for tv and hes the first tv president and weve had a twitter president for better for worse, but this is a radio president and hes very good at it and its the tone that he sets because of im looking at our audience here. I think we all remember father knows best. So this is kind of the father, you know avuncularly talking to his family the family of the United States of america. There was an occasion during the war when he was going to explain what was happening in the pacific and he had everybody now everybody go get a globe and have it ready. Ill wait until you get your globe and then im going to show now if you look right to hawaii and you move your so here he is the teacher in chief if you would the uncle in chief, but hes communicating with his constituents as if they were peers were all working on this together. Let me explain to you whats going on. Very seldom had a confrontational. Attitude toward anyone not only not on the radio, but in person he absolutely abhorred personal confrontation. So this is metier. This is where hes at his that that deep resonant base voice with just a hint of the Hudson Valley accent. He was extraordinarily good at this. I found some wonderful fireside chat stories when i did my book on the president s and the press one of which is that roosevelt was very nervous before each speech practically unapproachable smoking, you know, cigarette after cigarette and just before he went on the air he would pull a cap off one of his teeth. Because it whistled when he spoke. And he you know, so it was not much fun to be in the audience and watch in the in the white house in the in the map room. I think is where most of the fireside chats chats took place. He was also a newsreel president and i mentioned that in passing that first fireside chat in roosevelt house day after election day. 1932 was delivered twice once live on radio and then fox movie tone news moves its cameras forward and does it a second time . Its on youtube if youre interested in the first all the fireside chats are available. And how we wish we could have been there for the second inaugural, of course lincoln is a Communications Innovator too, and you could spend a minute talking about how we communicates with the military and with the civilian population . There are a couple of ways. I mean one of the ways that he took advantage of the limited opportunity he had to directly address his constituents was if he couldnt get up and give a speech in every town harold wrote a great book about his travel from springfield to washington as president elect stopping to give speeches and that was an opportunity. I was kind of a whistle stop after a campaign was over but he also wrote letters to newspapers. He wrote public letters to an individual that he then released to the newspaper so that the people could read it so that limited him he was also someone who haunted the telegraph office and and he we saw a little bit in this the movie that Steven Spielberg did with lincoln where hes in the telegraph office often he would wait to hear not quite in real time not like today, but but sooner than it would have been possible for any of his predecessors to learn of events on the battlefield and then respond to them from there so he wasnt innovator both of those respects. Roosevelt did 998 news conferences in 12 years two a week generally and not just in in the white house, but it hyde park at warm springs. On destroyers returning from the summit meetings in casablanca or yalta when he was truly exalted exalted. He was well he was exhausted but an exalted and unbelievable reparte there were transcripts of every press conference and they are great fun to read especially the moments before he actually gavels people into order and he teases the people in the in the front row and clearly he had a Good Relationship with them. And he enjoyed it. I mean, he really enjoyed press conferences and heres a big difference between 19th century and 21st century. And that is he would be talking about an event and say now now this is off the record boys, and of course they were all boys and then hed give away some state secret of sorrow what were going to do this or that he says, but dont print that and they didnt imagine that today. In fact the roosevelt press conference were ostensibly. Automatically off the record unless he said okay, you can have that and they were all race out of the room and trample each other so they locked them in they locked them into the oval office so they could have sort of a fair shake. I will say with all of the joviality which i found and heard when they were radio audio transcripts available. I must say i was surprised. Well first there were no women except for may craig who you may remember in the kennedy era the woman with the with a funny hat. So always ask kennedy and unusual question that made everybody laugh but in her days, she was pretty serious and in the transcripts you can see she was pretty tough on him. There were no reporters of color. In a roosevelt press conference until 1944. 11 years after his presidency and the excuse that his press secretary gave. Is that there was only room in the oval office for reporters from the daily newspapers or radio . Not the weekly press and the black press was by tradition a weekly newspaper press. So finally the weekly newspapers got together and created a news service and thats when the first africanamerican was finally admitted. Of course if you press secretary is general jubal earlys great nephew. Youre going to find excuses. So Stephen Early was there. Well, lets talk about their management style both of them obviously deal with subordinates and here is a picture of two cabinet tables one in 1864. And one i guess in the 30s. Well, we all know the team of rivals story lincoln managing factions in his cabinet craig. What about this . We see Francis Perkins here the only woman in the cabinet, but about well, i think you could argue that roosevelts cabinet is at least as much a team of rivals as lincolns lincoln invited those who were competitors with him for the republican nomination chase and bates and famously, of course seward, but roosevelt did something that im sure lincoln never considered. He invited the losing ticket. Alf landon and frank knox the republican president ial and Vice President ial candidates to join his cabinet. He offered elf land in the commerce secretarys position and he offered frank knox secretary of the navy. Both considered it seriously landon said ill do it if you promise not to run for a third term. Okay, youre out but frank knox did accept and remained secretary of the navy until he died in april of 1944 on the eve of dday. So so here he has republicans in his cabinet Harold Liberty mentioned Francis Perkins the first woman labor secretary of any cabinet of any cabinet position in the and she served the entire term and then of course the real problem that roosevelt has and to a certain extent lincoln too, and im sure harold can mention this is that he has what amounts to a coalition Franklin Roosevelt does hes got the Democratic Party but it includes the bowl weevil democrats. So his problem is he has to satisfy the boll weevils. He cant for example sign the anti lynching law or support the antilinching law or hell lose land lease. Now. This is a devils bargain as we all recognize today, but remember priority number one win the or get that done first, then we can do other things so so that i that precariousness of having the conservative southern democrats still voting democratic out of habit from the civil war, but who of course are committed to White Supremacy are in his cabinet and in his party and he needs them to get these other things done the draft lendlies other things that will help him when the war and you can say of course that roosevelt made the same decisions when it came to the new deal. Despite Francis Perkins importuning that he commit to of what became Social Security Domestic Workers and farm workers were excluded from the beneficiaries which disadvantaged africanamericans for generations. So yes deals with the devil and and remember famously and this painting purports to show that at the First Reading of the emancipation proclamation lincoln is hoping to get his cabinets unanimous blessing for a july order on emancipation in the rebel states. And in those days you sort of needed the stamp of approval Israeli Cabinet style to move forward on an executive policy. Well, they said no. The democrats particularly on the cabinet said no, but ultimately so did seward. So it was very much difficult management situation, of course if you believe some of the books. Cabinet came to a door lincoln, but im not sure that was ever the case. Here is another part of the management story and one i think will have fun with and that is two aspects of relationship with the military remember president s of course are commanders in chief. These are two images made on the spot of the president the commander in chief appearing before enlisted men if you will and their impact on the troops is lincoln and reviewing the troops. I think with general hooker very rough sketch, but you get an an idea of what soldiers wrote home about when they said that the president looked kind of funny on his horse. The horse was always a little too small. He didnt have the writing ability of Ulysses S Grant or the others who were such great masters of the equestrian art and yet they all wrote home that they would they loved uncle abe they loved seeing uncle labe craig, you know this picture of fdr, right . Yeah fdr, of course fdrs physical disability made it impossible her to ride a horse or to walk or to march or to even to stand for long periods while troops passed and reviews. So the typical way he would look at the troops is what we see here. Hed be in this case in a jeep sometimes in a in a staff car with a driver in the front. Maybe the chief of staff admiral leah. Hes sitting next to him and then in the back roosevelt who would give speeches from the backseat of the car in this case from the front seat of the jeep to the troops without getting out of the car. So maintaining what herald referred to as a splendid deception. Someone had a book i think with that title, but the number of people who had no idea that Franklin Roosevelt was physically handicapped that he couldnt walk without assistance or that he had braces on his legs. That was just a big surprise. So this he staged managed this quite carefully. He couldnt do it as often as he would have liked. He did it at casablanca. He did it in hawaii. He did it in various camps around the continental United States, but he liked taking i think it was lincoln called it Public Opinion baths that he would he would sense the mood of the troops by being in their presence and that was something as a natural politicians that he felt he needed and this is casablanca by the way, and yeah, roosevelt. Was treated very kindly by photographers, but i will say that from my investigation the gentlemans agreement of the prewar years. In which if a photographer tried to aim a picture of him to aim their camera at him while he was being lifted into a wheelchair or even photograph him in a wheelchair of another photographer with jostle him. A friendly photographer but in World War Two there are stories of military aids and press aids ripping film from the cameras. So once the war began the censorship was more was more direct and of course lincoln censorship of the press is legendary we need to dwell on it. But another aspect of the commander in chief role, of course is commanding the commanders. And im showing one. Famous photograph and one that may be less. So and the one at the on our left is of course. The famous meeting at somewhere between antietam and Harpers Ferry in october 1862 with lincoln and general mcclellan staring each other down lincoln urging action mcclellan urging caution and there the matter was rested for a few more weeks until lincoln relieved him a fabulous photograph and that you know, theres a series of some of them made outdoors with im sure mcclellan preferred this one. He looks little but not as little as he looks standing up next to Abraham Lincoln talk about Stage Management by the way an American Flag table class cloth maps strewn about some military clothing and equipment hanging on a rack that if you know this photograph, you know that if you broaden it if you back up and look at the whole picture theres a house right behind this tent so they could have easily have had a meeting in the house but photographer Alexander Gardner probably suggested that this would make much more memorable shot. So craig tell us what what fdr is doing here. Well, this isnt a house. This is in the house of fellow named chris holm who owned a house on Waikiki Beach in hawaii, and it was a threestory house with an outside elevator, which is one of the reasons that roosevelts staff decided that would be appropriate place to meet. This is in the dining room. You cant see too well, but that giant map is propped on two dining room chairs and roosevelt set this meeting up there was a big argument going on between the navy and the army and personified here by chester nimitz the fellow with the pointer and the guy with his closest to us on the left side of the frame Douglas Macarthur who also didnt like this photograph because if you widen it out you can see his bald spot. And then the and then roosevelt obviously in between them and next to him is admiral lahey his chief of staff who former cno who was actually senior to both of these military commanders. So the argument here is are we going to go to luzon and reclaim manila and live up to our pledge . I shall return or shall we . Skip the philippines go straight to foremosa and take a shortcut to japan the navy wanted formosa. Particularly. Ernie king wanted foremosa macarthur of course felt it was incumbent upon the United States to live up to its pledge to redeem his his promise to return to the philippines now, this could have been done through cables and in in the event it finally was but roosevelt who had been nominated for a fourth term just two weeks before this photograph wanted to be photographed with his twopacific commanders as the commander in chief deciding the route to victory in the pacific so it too to a degree is staged and and macarthur knew that and he didnt want to come so when he was invited to the conferences that im sorry. Im too busy. I cant make it. So admiral lay he reworded the invitation and this is a direct order. You will come and of course he did and there he is. So lets put ourselves in the room and one of the flower pots assuming they were nearby i cant imagine that that lincolns meeting with mcclellan was anything but awkward. Or insubordinate even because mcclellan is no doubt telling him the army is not going to fight. To enforce that proclamation that preliminary proclamation you issued two weeks ago. In fact, he might have even hinted what he told his wife that if i wanted to i could take this army in march into washington. Which you probably would have preferred. There was less resistance there and and i could take over i could take over this government. Im so wildly popular. That would make for an awkward summit meeting. What about macarthur and roosevelt . What was their relationship at this point . Well, there was a lot of talk in the Republican Party about nominating macarthur for president in 1944, and he didnt he didnt do anything actively to promote that but he did absolutely nothing to prevent it. I think he thought if the country called him hes a soldier he will do his duty and if they call him to the highest office, of course, he would go roosevelt knew that he was a dangerous man and a lot of ways macarthur was a very difficult personality. We could have a whole conference on him, but this is about lincoln not about macarthur so so i will go on from that but one of the things that roosevelt did at this meeting in this room with that palpable tension, not only between him and macarthur but between macarthur and nimitz to a certain extent is that he managed that so deftly that there was no confrontation no voices raised not even any contradiction and and layheu who kept a diary and wrote carry that night that he was astonished at the president s ability to maintain a degree of decorum of cooperativeness even amongst those four individuals who perhaps another circumstances would have drawn their knives. And as all of the top brass ultimately learned in both centuries. The commander in chief is the boss. And lets see what we have before us. Well, this is a passing shot a placeholder. I do want to spend some time about the families of each man and here. Of course is mary lincoln and Eleanor Roosevelt . And a picture of the couples the one of lincoln and mary in this case is a composite they never posed for a photograph together. I dare say mary would not have reached. Quite that tall if it was a real it was a real photograph and here is fdr and eleanor i think in hyde park roosevelt. You can see the outline of the braces on his on his withered legs here very complicated relationship, right . Both women aspired to deep influence in their husbands administrations arguably. Mary had less than she would have liked and eleanor had quite a bit of influence. Yeah, i think you know when we first started talking about their preparation for the office, and i mentioned that Franklin Roosevelt was a little bit of a callo feckless young man. He was handsome. He was rich everything came his way two things happened to him to turn him into the man that he became his president. One of those is polio clearly it gave him empathy for those who struggled in life because he struggled in life and i really do think that had a profound effect on his whole attitude about the new deal and taking care of people who couldnt take care of himself, but the other is clearly eleanor. I think he recognized in that 19 year old woman that he met, you know, if you see pictures of her when shes 19, shes actually quite a beautiful young woman, and i think he fell in love with her and in many ways remained in love with her. Lucy rutherford notwithstanding all of his life and she was his conscience. She is the one who said franklin that lynch law. Youve got to Say Something about it. Oh babs, which is what he called her. Oh babs i cant because the senators from alabama mississippi wont back me on the but she was always poking at him and prodding him and he was the better president for it. And one can say that. And i know our host for this session Katherine Clinton has convincingly said it that lincoln not only married up when he married miss of kentucky, but he found the one woman who probably could make him into a prayer into president ial timber the timber that he dealt with before. Mary was not really going to make him president. Mary had an extraordinary influence on him in terms of having someone at home to speak about politics and poetry and whatever there and and child rearing and i think we tend to as craig i think is saying too easily dismiss these as failed marriages. I think they were extraordinary partnerships at their best and could be troubled like many relationships at their worst. I ive you know working in eleanors home every bit as for as much franklins is made me look much much more into eleanor and just think that not only his conscience but his eyes and ears. He is traveling the world to places where franklin cant go he does value her reports. He doesnt like when she calls about about civil rights issues. In fact, he tries not to take our calls when hes traveling and apparently right before he died a die. She called him in georgia and and was talking about housing rights and when the call was over the doctor said that his Blood Pressure had gone up a hundred points. So it was it was it was a challenge. But remember she did all the you know, they say Ginger Rogers was as good as fred astaire, but she did it backwards and it heals so remember when eleanor and franklin are married, shes not only his conscience his eyes and his ears. Shes writing a 300 word newspaper column every day. And in this in the only in the 1958 and 9 did it go to three days a week and until her final illness. She was still writing a syndicated and appearing on radio by the way. Heres a quick shot and where we almost have to end our discussion and happily invite you to ask questions. I just want to show you the two homes and thats lincoln willie and tad in front of theirs their family home in springfield. Yes tad is there hes moving so hes a blur and thats thats 1860 august 1860 and on the right. Thats the place. I work. Thats number 47 and 49 east 65th street and that is fdr coming down a special ramp with with the banister that he used to wave to get down on his own as best. He could this is an interesting story. This photograph was taken in 1933. When roosevelt visited his home briefly. I think to recover from a flu the photograph was taken exclusively by the new york daily news. Guess what . It was not used. Because when the editor got it to his desk he saw. I can see the braces under his shoes. We cant publish this picture. We dont do that. Not going to happen today and here are the two boys. Lincoln and tad and that is elliot james was more often on his arm. But a different relationship right was roosevelt is dependent on his sons to give him some physical stability. He did he needed them and and relied upon them and as you say james or jimmy as he was most often called was the one who was armed. He usually held on to it. Ranked on roosevelt though was enormously strong across the chest and in the shoulders and biceps from doing this kind of thing. Holding is lifting himself up from a wheelchair onto another chair or holding himself up literally with the cane kind of disguised behind his back here and then his arm is if he simply being affectionate with his son, but that was a they were it was a dependency that he had on one or another of his sons. Ill just well we can talk for a second about the mothers and for lincoln his stepmother and this is the remember i told you the first fireside chat was in roosevelt house here is the moment after the fireside chat and thats thats roosevelts mother and look alike. Sarah sitting next to him and anna his only daughter and that is jimmy. Eleanor was not there for the first fireside chat. She was downstairs with the journalists. So well end with this set. This is the roosevelts the roosevelt and lincoln image. We introduced our conversation with and roosevelt was president for 12 years and lincoln for four. Did they work hard at their jobs . There they are at the end of their presidencies. So, thank you. Thank you for your attention. And i know that wed love to hear more but we also would like to hear from you. So after such a charming and informative and entertaining viewpoint of these two great leaders, does anyone have any questions theyd like to post to our experts. Please state your name and pose your question. Its its on. Dr. John willen from washington dc not as much of a question, but for those of you who are really into this photography stuff the photograph of mcclellan the lincoln that you showed. Dennis frye who has identified the exact spot where that was taken it was he lives in on burnsides headquarters the house that was burned and across the street. Theres a property and thats where that was taken on the antietam battlefield. So david identified exactly where that was. So we can go back and find it. Thank you. Yes you sir two items one is it is interesting how people always try to associate one president to lincoln. I remember when jfk was assassinated they had to invent people in his cabinet to show how close these two people are and maybe want to comment on that also, perhaps looking at George W Bush because both were seen as fools idiots and warmongers and tyrants by the democrats when they ran for office and their presidencies were primarily focused about as you showed before here a surprise attack and the war that followed it. Thats an interesting point and and fdr was thought by many people to be a lightweight and a dilettante and a rich man dabbling in in something which he wasnt trained in some ways which is of course a false impression. Well, i think roosevelt was that when he was 25, maybe 30, maybe when he ran for Vice President of the United States on the democratic harvard degree and a law works for an expensive law firm. I mean, hes got the world by the tail five years later. He is a polio victim who is dependent on everybody else and an entirely changed his worldview, i think and as for criticizing president s everyone who sat in the white house had gets these attacks upon them, you know roosevelt will get letters. You killed my son you murder her, you know because of the war thats going on and and lincoln got the same kinds of things you murdered my son because of this unholy war it goes with the territory, i think. Well, i just like to ask a quick comment as the commentator and and just to say that because of this educational process of learning from previous president s. My question is do we know if roosevelt had any affinity for lincoln . Did he study lincoln . Do we find in his writings any to another wartime president . Roosevelt was like almost every president that weve researched or spoken to was a lincoln aficionado. And he actually actively determined to become the first democrat to seize. Abraham lincoln for the Democratic Party and he assiduously worked that connection while still serving as governor of new york. And particularly emphasized it as america went to war in 1941. He wanted references to lincolns reluctance to to start a hot war with Southern States with slaveholding states his reluctant entrance into the war because he was still looking for a way for the United States to to stop the spread of fascism. He even hired the Robert Emmett sherwood. Had just want to pull a surprise for writing the play abe lincoln in illinois, which was then being made in 1939 that was being made into a hollywood movie and sherwood begins putting references to the reluctant leadership of roosevelt by the way of lincoln. So very much identified with him, and i dont know if any if ever anyone knows this but fdr came to gettysburg in a train and wrote his speech at the last the train. I dont know if he visited the cemetery, but he visited i think something called the peace monument. Yeah. Appropriate. Yeah, so annie and the holes and the speech was not only about peace in our time in the 90 early 40s but it was about lincoln and he supposedly met some sons of veterans black and white. Ill just add quickly that i think every president looks to the past and most of them look to lincoln because he is revered as the harold mentioned. Do we have these polls every year in which many of us participate about who was the greatest president and theres a strong consensus that lincoln. If not, the greatest was certainly among the greatest and roosevelt being aware of that and sensitive to that certainly paid attention, but its interesting that lincoln two looked back. He had a painting on his wall of Andrew Jackson of all people from the other party and one time when someone said well we should compromise with on fort somebody. Theres no jackson in that so he too was reaching back very good to from the past. Thank you gentlemen there. Hi, i wonder if you could these are the top two president s in by historians. If you could each give us one or two of the top lessons on leadership you draw from both of them. Well, yeah. I would say ill do one clear virtue or gift that both had that set that set in motion their ability to lead and to draw people to their causes and that is the extraordinary ability to communicate each was the perfect man for his time in that lincoln. Was probably the greatest right . Well easily the greatest writer among president s and he made sure his words were spread far and wide and roosevelt was a modern media president who mastered as craig has said the the Electronic Media that blossomed and became Radio Networks during roosevelts presidency, and he people thought it was on the radio all the time, but there are only 28 fireside chats with enormous impact so both were fabulous communicators and that is still an important gift. Hell add patience. To that, i think one of the things both men demonstrated was their ability not to go off half cocked not to fly off the handle. Whatever cliche you want to borrow here and respond immediately. Wait out your opponent. I mean you see it for it sumter you see it in all sorts of places where each man confronting a difficulty said, well, you know things may be different tomorrow. Ill wait and see its a hard thing to do for a leader because youre youre instinct is to resolve this to grab it by the throat and fix it, but sometimes the best thing to do is to see how things are going to go before you decide which road youre going to travel and both had tremendous management skills. I mean skills with people both knew when to a criticize and engage subordinates and opponents and this is about timing as well lincoln famously writes a letter to general meade saying, you know, the youre indecisiveness after the battle of gettysburg has prolonged this war. Im miserable about it and then he writes on the bottom letter to general meade never signed never sent. Next time you press reply all think of the lincoln license. Thank you. I think well have time for two more questions, please sir, and calvin got her design from washington dc as you know. Polios usually a disease of the very young young. Theres been speculation of late. That it wasnt polio. It was Something Else. That afflicted fdr. Yeah, i ive heard that. In fact, i a physician who . Lives in new york or new jersey stephen lamezau who has speculated on all sorts of additional problems that roosevelt had and i think thats true, but about the very young but were pretty sure now that roosevelt caught if thats the right word polio at a boy Scout Jamboree at Bear Mountain in upstate, new york. Not at campobello fighting fires and getting hot and then going into a cold lake in canada, but at Bear Mountain and he would have been with a lot of youngsters. So that might have been partially was responsible for the outbreak. Thank you for your question. And yes. You briefly mentioned lincolns stepmother and roosevelts mother. How influential or detrimental were they in their sons becoming men and leaders . Well, ill start Sarah Roosevelt was a powerful woman. She she married James Roosevelt was much older. And almost a grandfatherly figure to to Young Franklin and she was a doting mother and she wanted for him a life a gentlemans life of ease that early phase of his life when he was a earning gentleman season sailing on the hudson and had a nice office in on wall street with a Prestigious Law Firm and was making lots of money. Thats all she wanted for him when he decided to run for the state legislature. She thought that was demeaning to him. Dont put yourself. Dont let the public judge you but even so she supported him and everything she did so much so that her presence in the roosevelt home was was heavy if you visit spring spring. Whats the name of the Springwood House . And you see the bedrooms. Theres a large Franklin Roosevelt bedroom and at the other end of the hall of large Sarah Roosevelt bedroom and in between this kind of a closet where eleanor slept and and that physical arrangement says a lot about what was happening there. And of course harold who lives in the house she built for them can tell you more about that as well. I try i try to go home at night, but i do dwell there. We dont even have an eleanor bedroom. We have a franklin bedroom and sarah bedroom where i work. My my office is in her bedroom. For everything we know eleanor either slept in whatever childs room was available because the child was away or during roosevelts recovery. She slept on the floor of his bedroom and administered to him. In ways that must be inspired by love because that was very difficult to care for her for him in the early in the early days. Yeah. I always say sarah and franklin were in love with the same person frankly. She was she was devoted totally devoted to him for sure and not always nice to eleanor. But she drove eleanor out of that house that house that i work in she made things so difficult for eleanor there and finally, she said to eleanor reportedly, you know, youre a youre a bad housewife. You cant cook. Youre a bad mother. Franklin doesnt like spending time with you. Why dont you go do something . I go down to the Lower East Side and work in you know in relief agencies. I work in poor if poor childrens i work with with black leaders which by the way she did she did all of that. She said and eleanor became a this is a six foot woman whos not the most graceful in the world. She became a dance instructor on the Lower East Side at the east side settlement house and that launched her career in Public Service herself of lincolns mother very briefly because i guess were out of time but lincoln obviously was deeply affected by the tragedy of the loss of his natural mother. I mean nailing shut the coffin of your mother by hand must be traumatizing. For a child, but he could not have lucked out more than to get Sarah Bush Johnston as a stepmother. She immediately saw in him something special. She urged her new husband to give him time to read time to study dont be as demanding as you would be for another only son to work in the fields or to work for neighbors for money she and and i think he treated her as his own mother. And you know continue to support her send money while he was president of the United States. So i think we had two women there who adored their sons and enabled them in a positive way. So we have a wonderful lesson. To leave on for leadership have adoring mothers. And thank you so much. Lets give the hand to our wonderful. We will be taking up. And welcome you all back for our next. Youre watching American History tv. Let me tell you about our speaker tonight. Wynn fellowed gallaghers books include how the post office created america, just the way you are a New York Times notable book, working on