In existence. It still is obviously. He is the author and editor of 60 books related primarily to the civil war, but also 19thcentury southern u. S. History. 60 books. Few, hisse just a first book was a history of the new market campaign, which i still think is a model small battle history 40 years after it was written. I think its one of the best small battle historys ever written on the civil war battle. Biography of john c breckenridge, the general history of the confederacy, a book on the end of the war in florida and other locations. When i was working at the Florida State archives i corresponded with him about the escape of some of the florida cabinet members. He is the editor of a recent series on the civil war in virginia, a separate volume for each year. He was the editor i guess its 20 years old, but the newer photographic history of the civil war, the image of war which is a great supplement to the older history. The on camera was Senior Consultant and commentator for 52 episodes of civil war journal, which many of you remember. It was on a e and History Channel for a number of years. He is involved in many other production activities for television. In 2013, he retired after 13 years as a professor of history and executive director of the Civil War Center for civil war studies at virginia tech. He is the only fourtime winner of the Jefferson Davis award, given for book length works and confederate and civil war history. There were copies of his new with book hopefully they have not been all sold out. Lorettoinventing velazquez, confederate soldier, impersonator, media celebrity and con artist which was published in 2016. Hopefully he is working on new books for us. In his talk today, grant, lee and leadership. [applause] please welcome to davis. [applause] davis good morning. It is great to be back here again. This is a wonderful venue and im delighted to see all of you here. Forngratulate ralph peters taking care of the first couple of minutes of the talk i was going to do. [laughter] because i now dont have to say my favorite branch of the u. S. Government is the National Park service, which i always do that i get a chance. They give us more bang for the buck than any other branch of government. Corp a wonderful dedicated the people working there. Years been working for 45 to have known so many of them and worked with so many of them. It is really something to be proud of. With the possible exception of england, i dont know of any other nation in the world that has anything to compare with it. It is wonderful what they do. And bringing people together like this is part of it. Thanks to ralph peters i will rewrite my talk on getting it. [laughter] he addressed so many interesting things. I will talk about grant and lee and leadership and what characterized them. But i will give you some of the background of their lives first. Informs of thing that the way people make decisions. Grant and lee as people. You find some surprises when you want something about them. U. S. Grant grew up in the wealthiest household in his county in ohio. Grant was the son of rural western privilege. His house had books in it. His house had a piano. Lee, as you have always heard, group in grew up and maybe straighter circumstances but not quite as poor as implied. His mother inherited a number of slaves at 50 a year. She inherited a lot of shares in banks and railroads. Unlike shares today, those actually paid dividends. [laughter] her income as a boyfriend year,n 2000 and 4000 a which put her in the top 10 of earners in america. They were not living in genteel poverty, but she was very careful with our money. The famous story that they would have a debate, the family, one day over what meat they would buy for the next days dinner. They could afford a lot more than just one at a time, but his mother was obsessed with she knew something about poverty. If you are married to light horse harry lee, be new about poverty and death and shame and humiliation. She was always a tension any. Willnch penny, and lee always be a pinch penny. It was a bone of contention with his wife overspending over her spending. He wanted to teach his sons about her spending. The most dangerous thing that can happen is when he finds a bargain. They usually cost twice what it would cost if she just paid the asking price. He did not grow up poor but he grew very conscious of money. Their childhoods are very different lees is quite constrained. I think ralph was on the money when he pointed out lee, from probably his earliest moments of awareness is conscious of the load that he and his brothers bare as the sons of harry lee. He will always spend virtually all his life trying to overcome that, trying to turn around the reputation of his branch of the lee family. His father. Ly knew he disappeared when lee was about seven years old. He never saw him again. I think its very significant that during the war when he was down in South Carolina he will go visit his fathers grave. His father was coming back from selfimposed exile to avoid debtors prison. He died on the way and buried near savannah, georgia. Lee went to visit his fathers great and he wrote a letter, two letters. Once in his life and one to his son describing it. It,ssentially described went to the Nathanael Greene plantation. Saw fathers grave. There was a beautiful growth of orange trees all around. He just went on. One sentence about his father. He was writing about visiting the great of a stranger. Of a stranger in a think this will follow him all his life. Grant has his own cross to bear. His father was a jackass. Bombastic, boastful, egotistical, annoying, of the wealthiest man in town and he knows it. He gives rubbing everybody elses face in it. Hes really a boob. They never really get along all that well. Grant has a different parental cross to bear. Hiset past being the son of character who spends much of his time, for some of it doing his best to tear down his sons ego, his own sense of selfworth. Jesse grant will be his sons worst critic in childhood. And will continue doing that during the war. It is so revealing that after the surrender at pittsburgh at vicksburg, one of the first letters he writes is to his father. It says essentially, dad, i took vicksburg. You can see him it is. Within the formal letter is this plea. Have i done well, daddy . Allfather would be across his life. There are tradeoffs. Grant had an almost amount of freedom as a child. Jesse may have been a jackass, but he did not scold, he did not discipline his children. They gave them an enormous freedom, a kind of freedom that those of the children would say thats no longer my concern, minor grown and gone, but would never think of today. There were no boundaries to speak of. Les could take off and travel around the county. He could take his fathers horse and ride anywhere he wanted to from the ages of seven or eight. It is a cliche about grant, but he is something of a horse whisper. He has this unusual connection with horses and could handle almost any barnyard animal, especially horses. He is allowed to hitch up his fathers horse team when hes about eight years old and go off to another country. In time his father will be sending him out to do goods deliveries or pick up purchases for the grant stores, plural, more than one gram stored. It is not a leather tannery. They sell Leather Goods intended by others that have been han btanned by others. By the time he is 15 he is traveled from ohio to kentucky, louisville, kentucky, lexington, kentucky, pittsburgh, detroit, chicago. If any of you study geography in school and remember it, he is getting further and further away from home and he is only a kid. By himself. My calculation is by the time he left for west point when he was with aad, by himself wagon and team traveled over 1500 miles. How many of you would trust any 17yearold you know to travel 1500 miles by himself with no supervision . What it did for grant was open up the world to him. He developed and never lost a fascination with travel, of seeing what is beyond the hill. Meeting new people. In that same period of his life, neverd say robert e. Lee traveled more than 100 miles from home. He stayed fixed in Northern Virginia. He did not travel, except for his father and i was to escape debt. Lee was never worldly. You know interest in the affairs of the rest of the world, or really even what went on the on the confines of virginia. That had been his world. When the war was over, grant becomes president. When he leaves the white house he will leave on a twoyear long ofard the world tour the world in which he nearly bankrupted himself. He loved every moment of it. Via photos of him in egypt, china, japan. He will be the first jimmy carter of a sort. The broker a peace between japan and china over a local dispute. There are still today just monument to u. S. Grant that was put up in the 1890s for the piece he made peace he made. It is still there today. Lee never got over that fixation on localism. They both have their prejudices, but they kind of reflect their childhoods and their experiences. Grant pretty much loves everybody. He was indifferent to slavery. There is not a word from him about the institution of slavery, for or against until towards the end of the war. He did briefly owned a slave that was a gift, when he was broke he emancipated them rather than to sell them for the money needed. He gets along with virtually everybody else because he is not just interested in the world. He is interested in people. A very open mind. Lee pretty much does not like anybody except white virginians. Much has been made up the famous later he wrote in 1858 where he castigates slavery, but he goes on to say that slavery is a bigger misfortune for white men than it is for the slaves. A white man has to take care of the slaves. His experience with his family was that they hired out the few he had and he inherited about half a dozen. They cost trouble. Caused trouble. You had to spend money that you were pinching pennies on this and some of the after them to bring them back. He did not like slavery. He is a southern whig, they dont know what to do about it. But he is no friend of the slave. He is not keen on free blacks, for indians, or mexicans. Is not keen on catholics. He is pretty openminded about jews, and will go out of his way when he is committing the army of Northern Virginia to make some allowances for jewish holidays as long as they dont conflict with actions in the field. You see two different minds in operation. Two different worldviews. Two men that are very different who share a lot of things in common. I think its important to try to emphasize that in saying some things about one you have not heard before, it does not mean higher anyone else is antilee or grant, you just need to level the Playing Field so you are looking with blinders off. And trying to give a fair approximation as we can of who they are. Let me play a game with the. I will give you a couple of scenarios. Who will speak in generals a and b. The latest cannot relate directly to grant or lee. General a expects the enemy to advance, but not just yet. He is taken by surprise when he leaves avenues of approach unguarded. He reacts to that surprise by being pushed back in fighting defensively at first, but then he consolidates his position. Then he takes the offenses and he drives the flow from the field. Foe from the field. Who does that describe . Both. That is grant at shiloh, lee at chancellorsville. Scenario two, struck at his flank, general b reasons to concentrate mass, the enemy must have weekend the other end of his line. General b counterattacks, and wins the battle. Which one is it . Both. Grant on february 15, 1862 and four donelson. Lee at spotsylvania. Last, b general divides his army and sends a major portion of it on a Wide Movement around the enemy flank and rear to strike at a size of blow. Which is it . Both. Lee at second manassas and chancellorsville. Grant at vicksburg. The myth is lee is a virtually undefeated genius only overpowered by superior numbers and resources while grant is of course a plotting butcher who on only by overwhelming power. Other skills and generalship is nearly identical. There is no question that lee had genius. His was hardly grant did have great advantages. Wara start, early in the grant had more experience. We can to forget he was already a National Hero in the north after donaldson and after shiloh lee at a time when was virtually forgotten in the south because of the campaign of western virginia that did not come out well. Only after he took active command of the army of what he termed the army of Northern Virginia in the summer of 1862 does the robert e. Lee we know emerge. Grant had more men, better equipped, and was backed by seemingly unlimited resources. But counter that with the fact fought on home ground. He had the image of interior lines. He knew the ground or had people with him who knew it, and he and his army had the fought on home. Support of the local people. Lee had another tremendous advantage and almost unique in this in the confederate army. That is he had the unwavering support of president Jefferson Davis. In fact a wonderful working relationship with him, which nobody else had with davis. Lincolnver even met until early 1864. Lincoln had been wary of grant for some time, until he was finally convinced this was the unions greatest military hero when i challenge him for the republican president ial nomination in 1864. Grant was being courted by opponents to lincoln in his own party. Lee new davis much better than grant would ever know lincoln. Grant also faced a constant peril of political infighting in his rear. First the jealousy of henry halleck, then don carlos buell, John Mcclendon is the worst of all. There is also stephen hurlbut, Nathaniel Banks and grants onetime friend william rosecrans. Almost alleir allies of them allied themselves with newspaperman. Communications and information and the creation of impressions versus the actual expression of fact. It is nothing new. As ralph told you in his talk. It is very evident there. These men constantly fed stories to her grant, by the charges of drunkenness. I will deal with that later on. Lee never has to contend with that. He has no one working against him behind his lines except possibly long street, was more interested in getting an independent command of his own that he was in undercutting lee. Directly,eport facetoface, with Jefferson Davis. Grant, through his career will report first to john c fremont, and henry halleck, briefly to georgia , and then to briefly to george mcclellan, then hallec k again. Talk about a losing hand. That is four deuces. Grant starts the war in which virtually every Division Commander in 1862 was a political general from illinois. Talk about poison. Mcclendon, prentice, wallace, lew wallace, sherman among his Division Commanders was the only professional. Later grant had a command and control the likes of banks, benjamin butler, and franz sigel. Lee had no nonprofessional or political generals and his armys Upper Echelon until the death of jeb stuart and his replacing by wade hampton and john gordon and the second core in the final days. Grant has operate entirely an enemy country. Maintaining long increasingly longer lines of communication, subject to by partisans and gorillas. Almost exclusively on home ground except for antietam and gettysburg. In short, lee has some substantially significant advantages to help offset grants security of numbers and material. That they could offset those things. It is demonstrated by what lee did to burnside and hooker, another losing hand. At any of those officers been in command in virginia during the spring of 1864, is there any reason to suppose they would have done any better against lee than they had before. Its a tantalizing what if. There are strong differences in the personal pluses and minuses. In 1864 when they first meet on the field, lee is 57. Which right now doesnt sound too old to me. Mental, emotional and Spiritual Health were in decline. He suffered from heart ailments, which he treated mostly with quinine, which in many cases just aggravated the problem but no one knew that. He is tired. He complains about having energy. He complains he cant concentrate, that he has trouble seeing the war has exhausted him. Mentally, he is older than his years. Custis, themary daughter of George Washington custis. A woman who at best was difficult. To try toys unwise put somebody who is long dead on the couch and psychoanalyze them. But Mary Custis Lee shows a lot of the behavior you see in people who are today diagnosed as being bipolar. Way down the next. Erratic behavior. She got out of bed one morning [cheers] cspan. Org and i guess sheir day cspan. Org had a bad hair day can cut all her hair off. They prepared to go to one of the social events that would take place on post. He would be dressed to the nines, immaculately in his uniform. She would show up wearing the 19th century equivalent of jeans and a tank top. She had no sense or no concept of what was appropriate for occasions. Lee and all the children will dance around mary increasingly giving your lives to keep her on an even keel. Im not saying she was insane, bipolar, or manicdepressive, but she was a difficult personality. That preyed upon lees mind. You see it in his letters in the later years. Feels he is a failure as a father. He is a failure as a husband. He feels like he is a failure as a man. In 1860 he has to go back and take over his command after those years he had to spend bailing out the arlington mansion from debt. He wrote how glad he was sitting back in the field because when he was home on a visit he felt like a stranger, like he did not belong in the house. He was just in everybodys way. He is not really a happy man. He has seemingly no enthusiasm. He will write about the depths of friends deaths of friends as a good event. One instance of the young opposite or just got married. He would write to his wife, mary, about how the young officer would in weeks of marriage gets sick and died. He said how wonderful that is. What a magnificent release. He will not have to go through all the hell interrelations that constitutes a marriage. He writes this to his wife. [laughter] he will express pleasure of a sort at the death of a child. That child can go straight to heaven and dishonesty go through the endless turmoil and english that is life on earth. This is not a real warm, fuzzy view of life as it is. Within him you find a resignation and a vague pessimism. Spiritually he is probably what is called a providential list. Man is helpless, all we can do is sit here and be the paintballs pin balls that god runs until we have the good fortune to die and go to heaven. Man cannot change his status on earth. Matt has no real influence on what happens on earth. It is kind of depressing, but there is a reverse side to the coin. If everything is only what god wills, if man really cant influence anything unless that is what god wants, if you are the commander of an outnumbered army, that could be liberating. I am not taking the risk. If we fail, it is not my fault. It is because god did not mean us to fail. Look at the other commander, grant. 1864, he is 42. He is in the best health of his life. He is 15 years younger. He is married to a woman who was visibly and inspiration for twin beds. She is no day at the beach. She has a cocci that runs off to the cockeye that runs off to the side. She is still no beauty, just adores her. Grant adores her. He married up because his fatherinlaw was not that keen on julia dent marrying a soldier. Grant was always happiest when she was with him. She was his touchdown. When she is not with him, probably can read about his being with her again. That is why he will as often as possible have julia with the army during the war. And sometimes his children as well. He simply loves the ground she walks on. It has been argued, and i think a case can be made, later on when president grant the grants may have been the happiest marriage we have seen. We have seen some funny ones in recent times. Maybe with the exception of harry and bess truman, they were happy man in his personal life. Ands also above all else incurable optimist, to the point of being impractical. But he always expects everything to turn out right. Candiede,al boss in in the best of all possible wolds and will work out for the best. He believes a man can make his own luck. A man can influence what happens on earth. He places no reliance on the almighty. If you want to write the shortest book on record, write a book about grants religion. All we know is if he ever went to church, which was occasionally he went to a methodist church. He also completely silent on all things metaphysical. He always expects to succeed. Even after he has just failed. Itself,not an end in just a delay on the road to victory. After every victory he will say the confederates will have to give up. I expect the war to end in a few. It never did until 1865, but he never lost the optimism. He will deal with conflict directly and decisively. Ieve Senior Officers and tell them to their face why he does it. He will have officers arrested. Lee always so controlled, always so conscious he is a lee of this and aa he has created, necessity to stay within the persona he always avoid confrontation. If he has an officer who disappointed him, and are ones. John b mcgruder comes to mind, Daniel Harvey hill, the man who croaked as lee says at one point, he gets richmond to transfer them. He does not do it himself. That gets rid of his problem, but it just makes the officers somebody elses problem. He has not really achieved a solution for the confederacy. He is achieved a solution for himself. Grant is too optimistic sometimes. Sometimes he does not prepare carefully or take proper account of any potential. Yet there are many similarities. They are very significant when it comes to the ways men in positions like this are going to manage vitally important commands. Neither has much use or councils of war. They will solicit the opinions of their subordinates and operations, and they listen to proposals of ideas, like when grant except thomas plan for the cracker line in chattanooga. At the end of the day when the decision has to be made, assad no consensus to share the responsibility. They made their decisions themselves and were both completely prepared to accept the consequences. Must it must be inborn ability to adapt to unexpected delays and constantly reassess the situation as it appeared before them rather than as they wanted to be. Grant seemed to be able to do this almost from the outset. Lee came to it a little more slowly, like in the opening of the seven days when he waited for things to happen and then wondered why they did not. By the close of the week he was learning and adapting quickly. Grant maintained excellent control of his units and developed a very outstanding staff, many who were specialists , invested with authority to act in his stead. A Civil War Army on the battlefield can be stretched out over miles. There was no way in Army Commander can be where he can see all of it, let alone begin direct orders. And making sure they are carried out. Grant would invest his Staff Officers with his authority to act in his stead. He just send a captain of the telik Corps Commander what to do. To tell a Corps Commander what to do any damn well knew the better do it. Grant will also do this especially when he is trying to get difficult officers like franz sigel or butler to do something. He will station numbers of his staff in the generals headquarters to remind them this is what the general in chief expects you to do. Lee did not do that unfortunately. This staff are almost all very good officers. They are just never enough of them. He did not always use them effectively. Some among the staff and he was around referred to him as the great tycoon. He did so much himself. He had only seven permanent staff. Grant had more than 20. It is not a modern general staff yet, but it is a staff. Both had a delegate know how to delegate and for the most part they dont micromanage. Grant arguably gave better orders, mostly written. His words were few, precise and they barely left room for confusion. It is no wonder he later became a great writer. He was proud to give too many verbal orders. Problemly this was a for the verbal orders had passed through a chain of command. Transmission opening the possible of misquotation. You remember the game, chinese whispers. 10 people line up and the first will whisper into the year of the one next to them. I think it is going to rain today and that would transfer to the next. By the end of the line becomes Something Like my sweater is too tight. Muchl orders allow way too scope for mr. Transmission. This will happen to lee a lot. His instructions at chief brown were scarcely comprehensible mass, though they may have been influenced. His opening instructions for the seven days were almost as using. Both are good at anticipating supply needs. The buildup in advance bases and supplies for troops along the way. Both are sound logicians. Both prepare carefully, and a grant was a little but more meticulous, he always had access to greater resources and he had once been a quartermaster. As my late grandfather who was a quartermaster in the sixth army in the pacific often said, the army depends on quartermasters. He said the two most important people are the quartermaster and a sergeant. That was for you, eddy wheeler. Great like being a quartermaster. 20 can to discipline, every commander has got to maintain discipline. Lee is a more stern disciplinarian. He would seek leniency in just under one fourth of the capital cases they handed him her a man who deserted. Grant would seek it in more than half of the same cases. Well almost 22 of the cases lee approved ultimately resulted in the execution of soldier. Grant was 19 . That is not mean grandpas more humane. Though he was somewhat reluctant to impose summary justice. I think reflects the fact that assertion was simply never a real threat to the union survival as it was a threat to confederate survival. Grant had less need for stern examples. Both set model personal examples. They consciously tried to appear not to hold themselves above their men. It may have been a little easier for granted because he was cut largely from the same cloth as his soldiers. For the parturition lee, required more effort and more sacrifice. It paid off in the respect and the near adulation that his men felt for him. Both are surprised by the enemy one once. That same grandfather and mentioned thought there were two kinds of Army Commanders. Those taken by surprise now and then, and there are those who live. Lie. [laughter] stay in the military long enough and you will be taken by surprised. Grant was surprised that belmont. He is surprised again by the february 15 attack at fort donelson. He is taken by surprise at shiloh. Lee was surprised by poker at chancellorsvilleand by grants crossing of the janes. Confronted with a surprise, for a setback, there are instincts that are identical. Neither retreated immediately from a surprise or a defeat. Instead their reaction was to ask themselves, how can i turn this setback to my manage . My advantage . Thats what great with you on the second day at shiloh. Thats the reason im convinced lee stayed connected a and antietam and gettysburg, hoping for opportunity to turn it around. Both have the instincts of raiders. s campaigns at ntm and gettysburg, they are not campaigns of conquest. He never plan on staying in pennsylvania. He was always going to go back to virginia. Antietam stunned and shocked the north, and had some political effect. Gettysburg disrupted lees plans for that season and essentially wrongfooted the army of the potomac until november. It bought lee in virginia a summer. Grant will do the same with pearsons raid. They both understand the value of what a raid, even a huge one can accomplish. Neither is afraid to take a great risk. Think of lee at second manassas, antietam, and chancellorsville. Grant at vicksburg. Making his men stretched each days rations the last three, and counting on the land to provide everything else. And the crossing of the james. Both will make the big decision. If there is one thing that sets them apart from almost all other Army Commanders in that war it is they were willing. They could take a huge risk knowing they are risking the lives of thousands and get a good nights sleep. Promisingbring along subordinates. Frank is responsible for the rise of sherman. Nobody else would put up with him. He is responsible for the rise of mcpherson and sheridan and others. He works diplomatically with need once he came east, and generally preserved goodwill between them. Lee brought along jed stewart, ap hill, john gordon and others. This enormity involved to some degree in the rise of all these men, lees approval of their can anyoneminated, familiar with his handling of officers that is appointed him knows that lee did not keep subordinates who disappointed him around for long. Try to maket, lee something out of Joseph Johnston. , something useful though he had limited confidence in the mans command ability. He put up with, as everyone did, being here is behavior of the regard in 1864 pt beauregard. Grant would at both believed to command if not shot. There are some failures of personal management. Personnel management. Grant failed with thomas. Lee failed with long street. Both were slow, plotting, resistant, and guardedly insubordinate. Other positive attributes and their wide popularity made them worth of frustration that came with them. Neither operates in a political vacuum, especially lee who is often criticized for being virginia centric and is thinking. He is certainly to appoint, but lee is always aware with happening elsewhere in the confederacy. He may not seek to influence it, but hes interested in how it might influence what is happening in virginia. They both understood the value of popular morale, of civilian will and keeping the people behind the army. Grant had coal harbour. We had july 3 at gettysburg. They both made what it called big mistakes. But dont forget have those awful assaults work, lee would have been divided and all the trap of his back to the chickahominy at cold harbor, and lee wouldve been divided and gettysburg and forced to withdraw towards washington. The frontal assaults that a given their critics so much years my in fact event on the other way had made these men even greater heroes. Sometimes a very thin line divides the military geniuses from the years brags and the burnsides of the world. Criticizedalways be and still is for his high losses in 1864 against lee. From may to june they totaled 60,000, for around 49 of the army of the potomac. But consider in the previous three years a succession of Union Commanders lost a total of over 100,000 casualties in Northern Virginia, and yet in april 1864, the confederates were not that far away from where they began the war. Downx weeks grant tied lee to a siege that could only have one probable conclusion. Lees casualties in that same six weeks amounted to 50 , fewer numbers, but still a fairly substantial proportion. Grant ran a much more complex war, on land and rivers, and over a vast territory even before being make general in chief. Only have eastern and Northern Virginia on his plate and so close to the end. Nevertheless they were equally aware of the implications of their actions outside their rounds of command. Realms of command. Lee counted on his invasions of 1862 and 1863, and the rate on washington in 1864 on influencing the election of the north and diplomatic relations abroad. You would consistently underestimate the determination of the mass of the northern people to see the war through. As i said, fred expected on most every battle to in the war or put the union just one more fight away from victory by dissolving the morale of the seven people. He underestimated confederate resolve, just as much lee did the norths. The point im trying to make is neither commanded in a vacuum. War in a free any society. Both men understood instinctively and respect to the role of the military as subordinate to the Civil Authority in a democracy. Mcclellan certainly did not. Joe johnson didnt. Macarthur didnt. They understood it. Grant repeatedly declared that he would carry out any order, whether he agreed with it or not if he came up against an order he could not and cant disobey, he would resign. E left no such declarations, but he harbored virtually identical sentiments about 80 and subordination duty and subordination. Neither had any evident ego getting in their way, though they had human blind spots. Print would never admit he had been surprised on the first day at shiloh. He is about the only one who did not admit it. You will note the wonderful saying thats probably apocryphal fishermen he said surprised . Hell no. We were astonished. [laughter] grant will never admit lee traveled him when he crossed the james. Let me add a bit of dimension to the story of lees final campaign towards appomattox. What is little known today because i think a lot of the sources they might have had went up in flames with richmond, and also many of the people involved and we never spoke about it. It is quite right what ralph said. Lee told jubal early in 1864 if it came down to us each, it would only be a matter of time. I dont think theres any doubt that by the fall of 1864 and especially after the reelection of lincoln, lee knew the game was up. The south was not going to win. There is a big difference between not winning and how you go about losing. There was aof 1864, small group of men at the confederate senate. The senators from the Confederate States of kentucky and missouri, was never eeded, and the men from western virginia sitting in the confederate congress, program was new the new state of west virginia. And along with others. Senior senator from virginia hunter. John campbell, assistant secretary of war, began meeting to discuss this very issue. Essentially the game is up. How do we limit the damage . Lee is involved in those meetings. We know that because there was a couple of recollections of lee being involved. Some of his correspondence showed he attended some of these meetings. It gets going in january of 1865 when president davis picks in the secretary of war, general john breckenridge, who is been convinced of this up sometime. Breckenridge and campbell essentially become the center of this group of men. This is not a conspiracy. Everything they hoped to do with the constitutional. They meet in breckenridges rooms or a senator from missouri to discuss what can we do, and what comes out of this is what i would like to call confederate reconstruction. They know they will lose if they keep the work going on indefinitely. You can only end one way. But as long as they have armies field, they still have something to barter with. As long as they still have the ability to cause the union the loss of more blood and more them,re to beat what they are doing is putting the war past them and looking ahead to try to make the best can of the future. What they come up with essentially is the hope they can get an armistice, a ceasefire, and then negotiate. If you look at the history of armistices, once the guns are put down, it is very, very rare they are taken up again. Think of world war i. They understand that. They know the north is worn out. If they get peace, they might have the ability to barter. Maybe dont mass confiscations or trials of confederate leaders. Maybe a recognition of existing governments of various Confederate States. Lee is in on these discussions. It takes too long to go into it, but it falls apart when richmond towardsd lee sets up lynchburg. He gets as far as appomattox. The only member of the government he is meeting with during the retreat is breckenridge, who is secretary of war but also the leader of this group. The last thing he said to them have one of the last meetings was this has been a magnificent epic, in gods name letter not terminate in a farce. He wanted to surrender honorably as a nation, a better yet if they could get an armistice first. I think that is what he and lee are discussing. The sources are very thin, but its interesting once lee and grant occasions, grant sent him a notice saying yet to realize there is no point in continuing this. Lee will write back saying i do share your views at all. But just for the fun of it, what would be your terms above is interested . Relative to the Confederate States forces under my command. He did not say relative to the army of Northern Virginia. Lee is general in chief of all confederate armies, all confederate soldiers are forces under his command. He is hinting to grantee is something the negotiate with. Here, we canst end make it end everywhere. Thats how it happens, but they do have a second meeting on april 10 on horseback between the lines. Again lee tries to raise this idea of peace. He invested with authority to speak for other armies as well. The reason he is still fighting, still resisting on the way appomattox, maybe it involves his ego, but i think he is also playing for time and also still realizing that men will lose their lives, but those lives lost may make the living better for southerners after the inevitable defeat. At the end of the day, whether they think of each other . Interestingly, grant with say of lee, he was of a slow, conservative, conscious nature, without imagination or humor. Always the same with great dignity. The only met four times, so he did not know lee well. Unable or willing to see that lees achievements justified his reputation, a man that needed sunshine. I never knew that meant until i realized not long ago one of his nicknames or his wife julia was sunshine. Maybe grant knew something about lees marriage and figured if he had a gal like i do he would be a happier man. [laughter] he also thought Joseph Johnston was really confederate commander he was ever feared. That showed grant could be painfully wrong as well. , lee for his part rated grant is a pedestrian commander lee who only succeeded because of raw numbers. The essence of the forthcoming lost cause net. More than once, lee said the best general he faced in the war was george b mcclellan, the union joe johnston. If the war had been up to johnston and mcclellan, they would still be retreating from each other today until they sort of bumped into each other from behind somewhere near taiwan. [laughter] in the end they are completely human. Neither grant nor lee ever could wasould in the admit the other his preeminent adversary. Thank you for listening. [applause] we have time for a couple of questions and then we will break for lunch. If you want to take a microphone, your name and your question. I have a brief question. I have a long answer. I teach up in Prince William county. The question is grand always gets that slur that hes a butcher. Even though if you look at casualties, hen sustained more casualties from the beginning of the war to the end of the war. He cannot afford to sustain those casualties. They are both aggressive in their own way. Saynder if i dont to that same kind of slur towards either one, but from a perspective on that aspect of the war in terms of why we still have that tendency as students of history to see things in that way. Genius,hink lee is a but we dont equally apply the criticism in terms of some of his aggressive tactics and strategy in terms of the maryland campaign. Part of it is the old cliche that the north won the war but the south won the peace. Certainly they won the battle over history with this incredibly manipulated but lost cause myth. Part of that is that grant was a butcher. There was no skill on the northern side. Lee was virtually the right hand of god and the war was only lost because he was let down by people who became republicans long street s longstreet. The underdog usually has to take greater risks in the hope of through surprise, ingenuity, whatever, evening the odds. Lee certainly did that and it worked for him so much of the time. But it was very, very costly. I think we give up our myths reluctantly. Thats one of the ones we will probably never have go away. If only everybody read several of my books, for just bought several of my books. [laughter] they would know. Im sorry. We will take one more question. In the civil war documentary series, the late show before stated that shelby foote stated he could make and sell grant and think what grant was thinking. Any comments on that . I did not see that so i dont know. Grant, very able, as was at looking at the situation at hand. Looking at what he knew of terrain and especially of roads and how to get where you want to go. It was largely a wilderness. We lost a lot of trees since then. It was a very different landscape and it is today. Give mystify a lot of people on both sides. And grant could look at the variables and say, what would i do if i was in my opponents position . This is what grant did slightly afterthefact at fort donelson on february 15 when he figured out what those guys are doing. I know what theyre planning on doing now. They will try to break out over here. Lee was certainly able as well. Whether or not he was thinking my grant, i think thats an Artistic License on the part of foote. Thank you all again. Lets enjoy lunch. [applause] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit ncicap. Org] [captions Copyright National cable satellite corp. 2017] we also have a taste for war, the culinary history of the blue and gray. Perus it at lunch. He will see you at about an hour at 1 45. You are watching American History tv, 48 hours of programming on American History. Forow us on twitter information on our schedule and keep up with the latest history news. Weekend American History tv is featuring eugene, oregon, home to the university of oregon founded in 1876. The cities tour staff recently visited many sites showcasing its history. Our more about eugene all weekend here on American History tv. The logging industry in oregon was really important because it was seen as sort of an exhaustible resource. When you first come to oregon, if youre not familiar with our ecology, you are shocked by how many trees we have. We are developing the technology to kind of cope with the mountainous terrain and the large size of the trees and figure out how to turn that resource into something we can harness economically to support the People Living in this area