Transcripts For CSPAN3 The Secret Jewish Commandos Of World War II 20221011

Play cspan radio. Powered by cable. My name is jeremy collins. Im the director of conferences and symposia here at the National World war ii museum. It is my pleasure to have with us doctor leah garrett, who is a professor at Hunter College at City University of new york, her last book was young lions, one that i have not read but it is really of interest to me. I need to get on that next. How jewish authors reinvented the american war novel. It was shortlisted for several major literary awards. She is here to talk about her latest book, x troop the secret jewish commandoes of world war ii, which has received wide and high praise. The reviews are great from cnn, the daily mail in the uk, stars and stripes. And i think leah told me that there are a couple of other big publications that are going to have some glowing reviews soon. So, without further ado, lets get into the program and welcome dr. Leah garrett. Thank you for joining us and please tell us a little bit about the book before we get into our conversation okay, so, i will tell you, and thank you very much to the museum. Some things i wrote about the book of archival material here, i have worked closely with your librarians because i was talking to ambrose for his books as well i will just speak briefly about the x troop people now who they were. They were a secret jewish Commando Unit that churchill along with lord mountbatten created in 1942 when the war was going very poorly for the brits, and they knew that they needed to do something extreme. They decided to create something called the inter ally ten commander unit, which had been comprised of Commando Units from people who had been displaced and traumatized by the nazis. There was a polish Commando Unit, a french Commando Unit. But, they also decided they would create a german speaking unit. And, what ended up happening is this german speaking unit would end up being comprised almost entirely of german, jewish and austrian jewish refugees from europe. So, these were people who came to the United Kingdom on kinder transport that their parents sent them over to get them safe. They made their way alone, as teenagers, by themselves with parents who were in absolutely desperate situations, and i will give you more detail on different aspects of it as we discuss it. But, eventually this group was selected to be part of this Commando Unit. And the reason why it was so extraordinary was that it was quickly recognized that these were the best and the brightest. They had deep, intensive training. And they were trained both as commandoes and as intelligence officers. So, in contrast to the ritchie boys who were also German Jewish exiles who were intelligence officers, these guys were both. They would fight, capture, and kill nazism but they would also go interrogate on the battlefield to make the decisions in the next minutes for the battle to continue. So, what ended up happening was it was quickly realized how extraordinary they were, and the British Military made a very unique decision that rather than having them fight as a unit, they would parcels them out in twos and threes and fours to existing Commando Units and have them be the tip of the sphere. So, when we talk about the x troop in my book, it is not only extraordinary because these guys were a bunch of german and austrian jews who got to fight back against the nazis, but also because they were so effective. They ended up in multiple battles playing an absolutely crucial role in the war efforts. And then, after the war was over, they were also used very centrally for the denazification efforts. Not only were they killing, capturing and interrogating nazis during the war, but also after the war. And each of these stories of the men is extraordinary because they all came from a place of trauma and tragedy to, i would say, a great deal of redemption in getting arms and getting to fight back. Thank you, that is one of the areas that the museum has been, i dont want to say sensitive to, but aware of, that certainly from an american perspective, probably globally whenever we discuss the jewish experience of world war ii it is always, or almost always the holocaust. And there was a gentleman whose parents were survivors that spoke to me one day. He said, you know, we fought too. It is good to share these stories, yes, the suffering was awful and we were victims but we were part of our own liberation. And your book does a great job of that. We will get into some of those battles you referenced. But, your book does a great job of getting very micro with these individuals, and following them as people. Following them as a unit, but also putting it within the context of the broader war. Could you tell us a little bit about them, their backgrounds, you mentioned austrian or german jews primarily, but tell us a couple of examples of some of these young men that you followed and researched and included in x troop. That is a great question, i will tell you about two of them, in particular, because i think there is a chance that their kids might be in the audience as well, i will just talk very briefly about them. I focused on three but i really focused on the entire unit, and then maybe ten of them also, as well, one of them would be Peter Masters, who was from a middle class austrian jewish family, very cultured. He was a sensitive and artistic kid, he liked to ride his bike around, was into football. And, when the happened and the germans invaded austria, immediately, overnight his life went from lovely to very hellish. His mom saw the writing on the wall, but the problem at this point, which people often do not realize what the holocaust was and say, why didnt you get out . There was nowhere to go, countries were not taking these people, and so, him and most of the others, their parents often had to make a decision of, we have to leave now. In his case, he was unusual because his mother was able to leave with him, which was very unlikely. The nazis rounded up his grandfather and other family members and killed all of them. He made it as a teenager with his mom to the uk. He ended up getting a job on the farm and ended up getting interned because the british decided when the war breaks out that they are going to intern all of the german refugees, not really thinking through the fact that 80 of them are jewish. And they have no reason to be interned and the interment idea was that there must be a fifth column that was going to be an enemy within our ranks. The way they did with japanese americans here they did it with germans there, primarily german jews. He was one of the unusual ones because he gets out with his family, but other ones like colin anton was typical, who i talk about as well. He also grew up in a nice, middle class family in germany. Loves his parents very much. Is devoted to his dad, in particular, does not even realize he is jewish because his parents are hiding this in order to protect him when the nazis come to power. They also say the writing is on the wall, and he is sitting with his dad at a pub one day and the police come and arrest his dad, whos been speaking out against the rise of fascism and the nazis. And you know, a week later his dad is murdered and his mom realizes her son is going to potentially be next. And so, she puts him alone, i think he is 16 at this point, on a train, on a kinder transport. He arrives completely by himself, no family, utterly heartbroken, dad is dead. Again, to the uk, to try and make a life for himself. And, for most of them, when they get to the United Kingdom, it is actually okay for the first year or so in terms of theyre safe. They are all desperately missing their parents, they have lost family members, brothers, sisters, a number of them lost their children at this point, and their wives have been taken and exterminated. But, they are physically safe for the first year or so, until the war breaks out, and then they are all rounded up and put into internment camps. Yes, you mentioned the kinder transport and obviously those who did good, their experience in the uk was not universally bad, but, there were prejudices in the uk as well that they had to overcome, or deal with. Talk about some of this. You mentioned the fifth column. It is terrifically ironic that here they are, fleeing persecution because of their jewishness. And then, when they get to the uk they are treated as potential enemy aliens because of their germanness. Can you talk about that . Sure, in fact, one of the terrible ironies of the story is that they are all called enemy aliens through the war and even after the war, they end up taking years to get naturalized because that status does not change. What happens with internment is that the British Government decides that they are going to start interviewing these 70,000 or so german refugees. Again, not thinking that 55,000 or so are jewish, and then they make the decision that they are going to turn those who seem the most dangerous, which, of course, are single men, and of course all of the x troop are single men because they have all come here as teenagers and they have no family here. They end up getting interned in the United Kingdom and the camps are bad. One of the men i talk about a lot in the book is a man who comes from an Orthodox Jewish family in germany, again, very loving, warm, orthodox, wonderful family. Same story, his life is good, the rise of nazis and it becomes very bad very quickly. Jews are bullied and then it is horrific. His family also makes a decision to send him away on the train to safety. He ends up getting interned at one of the worst camps in the United Kingdom. There are no beds, there are no tables. Mold, rats, buckets for toilets. But, most of them end up on the isle of man, which is pretty bad but not horrific, in the uk. But then, the British Government makes a very strange decision that they are also going to send a bunch of them overseas, and they send them on ships to canada and to australia, and the internment camps in canada are terrible. Those who are unlucky enough to get on the ship to go to australia, which is quite a number of the future x troopers. Unfortunately it is manned by a completely antisemitic british crew who later will all be courtmartialed because of what they did. There are also german prisoners of war on the ship. The german prisoners of war get bunks in upper deck, all of the jews are put below in the hold, locked in with no air or water, not only that, but the ship crew decides its really fun to torture them. One of the commanders actually interviewed when he was still alive for the book talked to me about having to walk barefoot over the ship deck with broken glass because the crew thought that would be funny. And all of it is in all of the historical documents, especially with the courtmartials that happened. That group gets sent after this voyage to australia. They get put in an internment camp in the outback for a year, and what many of the men from that said was, the worst thing was not being in the outback, it was the fact that they were not given any news from home. Nobody knew what is happening to my wife . What is happening to my kids . Of course, the news is horrific but they wanted it. And, eventually, what happens is the brits decide that they are going to, after pearl harbor and the war shifting, the brits decide to stop this crazy scheme and they give all of the men in the internment camps, particularly German Jewish refugees, you can leave if you join the military. Theyre like yes, that is what i want, i want to fight the nazis who have destroyed my world. But, unfortunately the brits first decide that they are going to put them in something called the pioneer corps, which is a hard labor corps, and they are not allowed to be armed or fight. They build bridges and empty supplies and stuff like that, they start agitating their Commanding Officers, please get me in a fighting unit, and eventually signs start appearing at the different pioneer Corps Centers saying, we need volunteers for dangerous duty. And all of these men put their hands up because that is what they want to do, they want to fight. You mentioned louis mountbatten and his special command that he had. The idea behind it, was it churchills . Wasnt it an amalgamation of various individuals . Tell us about the idea behind that, and then lets switch to the men themselves. What was the criteria for them joining, volunteering, what skills did they need . But, first, lets talk top down, whose baby was x troop and what was the motivating factor . So, the grandfather of the x troop was lord mountbatten. He had this idea that they would create this interally Commando Unit that would be composed of a french troop, and a polish troop and a danish troop, people just burning to get back to their countries and fight the people who had driven them out. And then, what he said, lord mountbatten, specificallym to churchill he said, is that we need a german speaking unit as well, because if we have a german speaking unit they can do something remarkable, which has never happened before. We can train them to capture the germans as commandoes, but then we can also train them to interrogate them right in the battle, right now, where are the weapons and the mines and what are the units . And then these guys would be able to be the tip of the spear and no, that is where the minds are, lets keep going, we know what to do next. That is the decision that is made and churchill thinks this is terrific. Churchill apparently comes up with the idea of x troop because it is an unknown factor. We will see how this goes, there was never the thought, ever, in any of the written documentation of lets get jewish refugees. That was not what they were looking for. They were looking for german speakers but, in order to be somebody who wanted to have as a commando, when they did the interviews with mi5 it was very important to find out why do you want to go fight . You are german, why do you want to go fight the germans . And what ends up happening, of course, is that all of the people who want to do this. I think there were 87 in the unit and 80 who were jewish. It is because they are jewish they want to do this very much, not because they are german. That is where it originates from, it is funny because originally how the french unit, the polish unit. X troop its officially called the british unit. And that is another part of the story we have not mentioned. And the first two ends of being in charge of them, theyre Commanding Officer who is a wonderful not jewish welsh man realized that these guys are in the most danger as commandoes if they are caught. Because they will be killed as commandoes because hitler has an edict to execute all commandoes, they will be killed as jews, they will be killed as germans, and their families will probably be rounded up by the gestapo. So, they decide as what they will do is call them, officially, the british unit. But, what they will really bes german speakers, like you said almost entirely jewish, but all of them are told as part of this unit, you have to take on a new persona, so when they are selected all of them are given about five minutes to come up with a new name, a fake back story of why they still have some kind of german accent, they are all given dog tags that say fake regiments that they are attached to. And they say church of england so they will be buried under crosses. They are all going to pretend to be the british unit, but they are all really the german speakers who are German Jewish refugees. Part of the story is so remarkable is not only that they end up being so crucial to the allied success in the war, but that all of them have to utterly transform and pretend they are british through and through. The new persona elements caught me, not so much that they would need to, but the experience needed to create these new personas. I do not know what name, i would look at my bookshelf and picked a random names off of the spines of books, trying to come up with it quickly. I want to get into the training, but, on that point of the new personas, we can go into their broader training of how they went into commando. But, where they given specific or explicit instructions should their ruse not hold up, if they were captured by the germans . So, no matter what they were told their ruse better hold up, it is interesting because in order to write this book i declassified a lot of files. One of the sets of files that i declassified was about two men who served in dieppe. So, the first group to go to dieppe for that calamitous encounter which was a huge tragedy, that is a whole other story, but what it seems like they were actually trying to do was to get an enigma machine. Two of them apparently went missing in action, all of the history books for the last 50 years have said that these two guys were probably killed in battle, missing in action. I managed to declassify their intelligence files from mi5. It turns out that they were actually both captured and put into hard labor german president of war camps. I read the files, they were remarkable because mi5 was completely freaking out that they would give away their name, and they would give away that who they really were. And there was this top secret jewish Commando Unit that nobody knew about. And they didnt, they kept it close to the chest. They never said who they were. And these guys were in one of the worst camps imaginable. And they did not speak of it. And this was the only instance i had where i had intelligence files on the men who were captured, what happened. So, as far as i, know i have found no Historical Information that suggests that any of them actually admitted to this. They were told no matter what keep the secret, and as far as i can tell they actually did. Because they would have been killed for it, and more importantly for most of these men, their families would have been killed as well. One of the questions i had gotten when i was talking to somebody about the subject, were they advised or provided with the tools to commit suicide should with cyanide capsules or anything . I do not know that, i do not think that they were but i do know that there were a handful of them that i found, i did all of my research at the National Archive and war museum. The broader research, not the family research. And, from what i can tell there was actually a handful of them who disappeared without a trace, one of them went behind enemy lines into yugoslavian they never heard from him again. So, i do not know, i dont know if in that instance these men were captured. I am not sure. I do not have any hard data that tells me that they were given suicide pills. I actually dont, because, again these guys were so unique. The war was so personal for them. But, they probably would not have needed the suicide pills. If that makes sense. Because they were never going to get this information up. Because it was going to impact their moms, and their sisters, and their daughters. Im going to go back a little bit, you mentioned just now that it was so personal, was that the driving force, that they wanted to strike back at the regime that was causing their family so much harm . Or, was it young men wanting to do what young men do, not peer pressure but just that that was what everybody else was doing . The opportunity to get out of these awful conditions in the internment camps . Or was that really the driving force to strike back . That is a great question, i think it was 80, 90 strike back, i really do. These guys, they were such i am sorry to swear, but, they were so amazing. There is this one guy, ian harris, oh my god he is at the front of every battle. Another guy says that my tommy gun was my great love. They loved the battle, they were selected by mi5 and they were clearly looking for men who were fearless, right . And these guys are fearless, but, and i do feel a number of them just love the fight. But there was also a number of them like Peter Masters who, as he says, and i quote in the book, he says Something Like i cannot believe i went from this artistic guy from vienna who could take apart a colt 45 blindfolded like one minute. But, for a number of them it was a real trial to get up to snuff. To be able to be strong, and fight, and they really felt like, wow, am i capable to do this . And so, you know, a number of them were these hard guys who loved fighting. For a handful or more of them it was really, really hard, right . It was not their nature, Peter Masters was an artist. He goes on to have a great artist career after the war. I have a lot of his beautiful paintings in the book. But, for him he wrote an autobiography called striking back, it was just to fight back. Some of them had that hard men edge to them and were excited to fight, but for a lot of them it was a real psychological thing for them to overcome being shy, being worried, all of this kind of stuff to become these fearless warriors. And put themselves forth to sacrifice themselves, as they all thought they would sacrifice themselves in a second to beat the knots. And, final point on this is they also all felt that they needed to show the world that the jews were not like the nazis, the nazis were this evil monster and we do things differently. We are more ethical, we are a different type. I promise you i would not ask if we had questions about specific numbers or anything, but, being commando is not just regular infantry. You said there were 80 so in x troop, did you come across how many may have volunteered on what we would call wash out of commando training . Did you see a number as to how many people answered this call . Once they actually got to the commando training and had been intensely vetted by mi5, theyre vetted by mi5 and they get put through this whole difficult q a, physical stuff in london. The ones who are finally selected, as far as i know none of them dropped out, they were good to go. One of them was, i heard from the son of one of them recently, last week who was injured in a parachute drop. Because, they were trained for a year, intense, live ammunition. People firing bullets at them, the most intense training, scaling mountains, jumping out of planes. As far as i can tell they lost one person to injury and everybody else was so determined to get through this that they got through it. The guy training them said i am going to give them the hardest, most complete training imaginable and he did. He really did. Which is why they were such effective warriors. Because, as one of them said, it not only made us great fighters and made us confident. Right . They were not just like these middle class kids from loving families. They have the heart of a warrior and they can do this. Yes, the vetting was done rather than in the special training. Exactly. So, your book covers a number of areas and individual actions, what i wanted to do was focus on three of those areas. You have already mentioned dieppe, this is their first taste of battle. I think most of our audience members know the disaster at dieppe. You have alluded to it already, can you tell us a little bit about them in dieppe in august of 1942 . Quite a lot of historical stuff that i covered in this book suggests very strongly that the first troop of x troopers, five of them were sent to dieppe with a very specific mission in line, all german speakers. To go to headquarters and slash enigma machine because, at this point, the brits need to find out about the four rotor machine. Because, the germans are wiping out british ships and they need to find a way to find out where the germans are going to attack. So, they plans devised by ian fleming who goes on to write the james bond novels is to stop that. X troop was not part of the informing script they were part of the larger commando group. But, they were meant to try and an enigma machine. As we all know, dieppe was an absolute slaughter. And, as far as we know one of the x troopers is killed on land. Two of them we thought were killed but i found that personal files and they lived through the war. And then, two of them interned, one severely injured, one goes on to be an extremely important x trooper called Maurice Latimer. I will not talk the proof i have but it is pretty overwhelming, the documentation, and their after action reports and what they said about it. One of them is married doesnt one who is working in bluntly at this point. And between the decoding. As this first iteration of the x troop. And not to give away that chapter, but i found the language used that they were in search of a respirator. Yes. Which was potentially code for the enigma machine. We have a three rotor in our galleries here, and the four rotor, as little as i understand the three road or i have no idea, but i know that it was much more advanced and had a critical juncture in the uboat war in the battle of the atlantic. So, the reconnaissance and force in dieppe, which is a lovely place. You go to dieppe and you see the big cliff, overlooking the beach. And the beach with not pebbles about the shell, and you can get bogged down, lots of Lessons Learned at dieppe but it came at a high cost. Mostly canadian cost. So, we go from a disaster to a redemption of sorts, again, we are sort of fast forwarding through your book, we want people to buy it. I am already seeing some comments that people are looking forward to getting the book now, and that is great. The normandy landings commemorated the 77th anniversary last week. The american pages to the west, they british and canadian to the east, where was x troop in the normandy landings and what was specifically their role . Basically, when they get out of there is that he is going to train these better than anyone has ever been trained before. That is what he gets out of it, it is where the british are now aware these guys are incredible. And, theyre not gonna let them land as their own, theyre gonna put them all under different commanding units pm and four charge of the commanding units at this point, some are like this commanding unit were sent with that. All of them are sent to beach. They land in these different units, and i will just give you a very typical story about why these guys are so important. So, Monfort Gantz who had talked about before, the Orthodox Jewish family. He ends up being interned, takes on the nom de plume ted gray. He ends up with the guy from deep, as well as a couple of ex troopers. They land at the beach a little bit later on off to the side where the carnage is horrific. As the Commando Unit lands, within minutes, half the Commando Unit is completely wiped out and slaughtered. Fred gray remembers his training over and over, get off the beach, get off the beach. He is like, this guy is one of the most elite warriors in the whole troop. He has been trained for Counter Intelligence at cambridge at this point. Recognized as a natural leader. He remembers, get off the beach, and he immediately takes control of the half of the commanding unit that survived. He goes off the beach, and he sees 25 germans there. Immediately, he starts speaking german to them, and they are so shocked that there is this british guy speaking idiomatic german. He says they need to show them how to get them off the beach and get them through the minefield, and they do. These guys show with mom fred, he leads the rest of the unit off the beach, basically being in charge of the survival of the rest of the unit. They make their way to the french town, he leads the capture of the town, and then typical of monfort gant, typical of Peter Masters before, what ends up happening again is that they decide to themselves, we have to meet these not seize, were going to do whatever it takes. When they are given to land with a bicycle troop, this was the crazy idea they are going to land these clunky, awful, 50 profound bikes. Carnage is happening, and he lands on the boat behind lord love its ship. And he and the other bicycle troopers are given the charge to go forth on their bicycles and get to pegasus bridge. Which of course, we know pegasus bridge is a most crucial post that they have to get there quickly to let them know the allies are coming. Because the allies have just taken a bridge the night before. So the bicycle troupe, the sappers who are on the beach say no, you need to wait until we figure out where the other mines are. Peter masters and the others are like, no, we have to go. And they ride their bikes, these awful bikes straight to pegasus bridge. They say, hold on to the bridge, we are here, we are landing. And then Peter Masters, very typical, at another moment with the landing. I think the following day, they are all seconded. His new co, he has only met the co two days before. He says to him, you need to go in front of us and find it where the machine gun nest is. Peter masters is excited, because he wants to win this war. But then he realizes that the co has been sent forth to draw out the machine guns. He will be slaughtered in order for the allies to proceed. And Peter Masters says, if that is what i have to do, im going to do it. And he goes forth, by himself, and decides to yell out in german and freak them out. And it works, and it buys them some time. The allies go forward, so this happens over and over again with the extroopers being at the forefront and capturing and securing really crucial ally positions. And for those of you familiar with normandy, they are landing and go for that is where the big Ferry Terminal is. For those of you who are familiar with the movie, the longest day, its where the casino battle is. Nobody can ever see my lapel pin, but i am wearing my pegasus today because of their assistance to the sixth airborne, at pegasus bridge, and at the mareville battery, getting to the airborne troopers that were seizing these key spots. It would be great if the story ended there, because dday was a success. We then get into the long slog, and they fight through they do cross the seine, and they keep advancing, and then come september of 44, the allies are moving in with the brits and canadians in the north. The americans are in the south. We have Market Garden going on, but there is another operation that ex troop is involved. Can you tell us about walkerin and the . Walkerin, because of the it is very clear that the allies needed another place to supply them, and they need antwerp. The problem was antwerp, to get there, they had to go by the island called walkerin. Hitler realizes this and he sends huge numbers of german reinforcements to this Little Island called walkerin in the river. It is on the way to get antwerp. It is crucial, and unfortunately, in hitler figures it up for the allies do. So again, a bunch of the ex troopers are sent on the mission to go capture ville karen, including manafort gantz from germany, and Maurice Latimer, from deep. And these guys are they are constantly fighting. So they are set to land on evoke aaron. Its a similar landing to dday. Unfortunately, they are fired on, they are slaughtered, it is awful. But manafort gantz and Maurice Latimer are one of the first that lands, and they see the light notes that has to be secured. The germans are using it to fire on the commandoes, and all of the tanks that are coming and landing, they he says im going to do this. So he takes his tommy gun, he walks down the street alone towards the lighthouse. And he starts yelling out to the germans, come out, come out, if you come out right now. We are taking this. While he is doing this, the Commanding Officer comes out of the lighthouse. Maurice latimer, while he is talking to the german officer, who was shocked that he speaks german, Maurice Latimer goes inside and captures all of the germans. They secure this crucial position. And then over the next week or so, while they are battling in walkerin, it is ganz and latimer, who at the front of everything. And at the final battle at this place called black hut, they are saying to go find the co of the germans to get them to give up. And they do, they sneak in, they capture him, they bring him back. And they secure the island. At this point, Monfort Gantz is in the Battlefield Commission, which is very rare. And when hes given the Battlefield Commission, his Commanding Officer says to him, look, i dont think you are really fred gray, why do you know dutch . And he knew dutch because his family lived near the border. What is your real story . And he tells them, look, im a jewish guy, my name is ganz. The reason that he gets the Battlefield Commission is that these guys do not want to be sent away to Officer Training School. They want to stay, there and it happens over and over again. They are pulled aside, you want to get Officer Training School . They say no, please, dont do that. Please, dont put me out, i want to be here. And one of my favorite quotes from the book is from Peter Masters, who says, unlike other soldiers who were drawing straws to see who has to go on the most dangerous campaigns, we are drawing straws to see who gets to go on them, they want to do this. And while walkerin they get the island, and then antwerp becomes a Crucial Point to resupply the allies. It sort of proves the point of having these german speaking commandoes upfront, where they get some of the germans to surrender. They get hundreds and hundreds and hundreds to surrender. We are going to move to the end of the war. These guys were from germany and austria. They would return a home as conquerors, or as liberators in their mind. Could you share some of the end of the war experience of these guys, finding family members, or finding out the fate of their family members . Can you talk about that . One of the things i want to say about the book is, it is a really optimistic book. If people are thinking of buying it, buy it. Because it is going to blow your mind how optimistic this story is. I dont want to give it all away, but suffice it to say that when the war ends, other gis, other soldiers who are british, american, are thinking yeah, i get to go home to my family, i will get a job, and my girlfriend. For these guys, this is just the start of the war for them. Now they have to fight to find out if theres any family members still alive. So for a number of them, they end up going to search for family members. And in one remarkable case, i write about it in the book, he rescued his family from a concentration camp. And i have his diaries at the United States war museum and i think his daughter is attending today. That chapter is one of the most exquisite in the book. Because i gave it over to him, and his voice, for what it was like to go on this journey through apocalyptic german before the war is over, to try to find his parents. Unfortunately, after the war, they are not naturalized. Unlike the polish units and the french, who are given naturalization. For some reason, the war office decides they are not going to naturalize them. So their command officer fights for a few years. Eventually, they are naturalized. But while they are being naturalized, after a few years, they are also being used for the denazification efforts. The majority of them are sent back to germany and austria. So they are not only back, they are trying to find our families. They are also sent there to root out nazis and gather information for the nuremberg trials. Which they do really essential interrogations and capture nazis. They do all these things to make sure justice is served. I want to change the program a little bit for our audience. Elliott does have some slides on the powerpoint that she can point out some of the individuals. Because of our technical glitches, i want to get to q and a. I want to get to the audience q a, so we can finish up with a powerpoint. Leah, my last question, and you got into there, continued war work even after the war was over, what was the overall legacy of x troop and these commandoes . These European Jewish man who did take up their cause. Their own cause, their families cause, and the greater world cause. So the legacy is actually really practical. But i dont think allies would have won without the x troopers. I didnt even talk about a number of the stories. One of the stories is about the man who listened to get intelligence before the dday landing. His citation says, because of what he did, we were allowed to land on dday. So they were there, crucially, most importantly, to help the allies win. But the larger legacy, and i wrote about this in that cnn editorial we talked about, which you mentioned earlier. I think the larger legacy of this story of the xtroopers is the profound importance of refugees, and opening your door to men like these men, and using them. Because they know firsthand what evil looks like. They know what it sounds like, it smells like, it tastes like. They know what evil is, they know what fascism is. And because they knew that, they were able to come to the uk. And the uk eventually gives them the arms to fight. And then they were able to change the world for better, based on the knowledge they had. So that is what i get out of this larger story. And its interesting, when we talked about the internments, we talked about the naturalization issues. For the vast majority of the xtroopers, the interviews they gave after the war, they didnt talk about that stuff. That was stuff i uncovered historically. What they talked about, overwhelmingly, was thank you to the brits for letting me fight. Thank you for giving me a gun, and saying go, do what you do. So that was actually the real thing that they felt in their hearts. And i think that is the larger message i got from it. If this were an inperson event, i would thank you and let the crowd give you a round of applause. Ladies and gentlemen, it is x troop by dr. Leah garrett. I will show it one or two times. Leah, we are going to get into questions. They are coming in. Amy asks, did any germans or jews die in the british internment camps . I think probably, specifically, in relation to where these young men were sent as enemy aliens before they joined x troop. Did you come across any deaths . I did, i came across deaths on the ship, two jews died on that ship, but i did not come across specific deaths in the internment camps. But, apparently, i was emailed from somebody a few days ago that there is a lot of work being done on the internment camps. There has been very little historical work on it. So, i am thinking in the next year or so we will probably start getting books that tell us in great detail what happened. But, in a number of internment camps, like the isle of man, these guys made the best of it it happened, they did music concerts, they created schools, they had our shows, they did all of this great cultural stuff, so the negative of the internment camp is that they are being interned, but, in and australia as well they tried to turn it around as much as they could and they did it because they came from very cultured worlds, they recreated that culture in these different camps as well. We will stick on this subject a bit, was there any offer of reparations from the british to those who were interned . No, it is a really underreported story, this book was like serialized in the daily mail and all of these british newspapers have given it a lot of coverage. And the thing i hear more from brits than i hear about anything else about the book is, wait, this happened . People are utterly stunned about it, there are huge troves of documents, theyre museums about the stuff, but pretty much nobody knows about it. There have been no reparations. And part of the horror of this, when they got on the ship, these are jewish refugees from germany. Maybe one of them has a photo of his wife who has now been taken to a concentration camp. Maybe one of them has a wedding ring, maybe one of them has something from their synagogue, when they get put on the boat everything is thrown overboard, and so a lot of the men say about the internment was, they werent part was not only not having information about what is going on in the war. But, that the last little thing they had connecting them to home is taken. And for the boys they never got any of it back. Yes, that last shred of personal, maybe it made it easier to create the ruse, to create their alter ego. But, i am sure there was nothing easy about that. That question came from david kramer, we are going to, you had mentioned them earlier, the ritchie boys. One of the questions is, are you aware of them . Another question is was there any coordination between the work that the ritchie boys were doing and the x troop that you were able to find . They were totally different, they were similar and using german speakers, the vast majority of which are jewish, but the ritchie boys were just counterintelligence officers, these guys are totally different because they are primarily commandoes who are also trained in counterintelligence. So, they are not only there to interrogate the enemy, they are there to take their tommy gun, capture them, kill the enemy, round up the enemy. It is a very different thing that as far as i can tell there was not any coordination, again the x troops top secret. Nobody even knows they exist, throughout the war there is one list at mi5, which i was very lucky i got to see this list of the man, who the men were and their real names, only that secretariat mi5 knew about it, and theyre Commanding Officer brian jones. And mountbatten. This was totally top secret, there would not have been coordination. I guess your question, i was going to way to the end, dennis says this is so interesting, thank you for your research and book, i cannot understand why this organizations existence was not written about before, am i wrong, was there more written than i do not know of . No, i had one of those extraordinary moments as a historian when i realized that there was a book that was huge, that had never been written before, and i could not believe it had not been written. There was a chapter about them in another book called 10 inter allied commando by the great military historian there is a couple of autobiographies and a biography and there was no book about land, and i think the reason for that was not only that they were top secret, but also because the amount of work that went into this was awesome. They were not their own fighting unit, in other words, when i was talking about dday and Peter Masters going to toot out the machine gun nest. I would have to go to all of the different war diaries, all of the different Commando Units to verify the oral histories of these men were true historically. It was like wading through hundreds of war diaries to make sure that they matched up with how the men remembered things. I was shocked to find that in 99 of the cases the men remembered everything completely accurately. I think thats why it was not told as well because it is a really hard story to tell, final point, i would never have been able to tell the story if one, i had not been aware the clock was ticking and i needed to interview the still living commandoes, and i was lucky because i got to interview two of them as i wrote the book, and to that they commando families themselves were extraordinarily generous in letting me interview them, sharing family archives, giving me material, and were just so open to finally, finally someone is going to tell the story of this really important troop. Shelley says wow, what an amazing and horrific story, will definitely read the book thank you, shelley, you can find it on our museum store website, we have copies of the book linda, thank you for ordering as well. Are there any x troops left . You mentioned you got the opportunity for two of them, let me see whos question that was. Larry wanted to know are any of the x troops still alive . So, when i was writing it i did discover that there were two men still alive, both in their late 90s, one of them was paul who ends up being a very famous economist, who was like a lifechanging economist. I was lucky he was able to connect with his daughter and interview him through his daughter when he was quite sick, i was able to interview him. He unfortunately passed away just over a year ago, i did interview a second commando and had an amazing day with him and saw all of this material and i found out, i called him when the book was coming out to send him a copy, a couple of weeks ago and unfortunately his wife picked up the phone and said he had passed away about three weeks before. As far as i know those were the two last heroes who were still alive. There is a lot more, for those of you watching, leah has agreed that after the webinar she and i will conduct a written interview for some more of these questions. I feel that i have in my back pocket, and we will post it alongside the video in about two weeks from now. We are not going to get to all of them, but there is a theme for two of the final questions. What is the tie in to the inglorious bastards and im just gonna ask, what is your opinion of the film . Without using the language the tarantino has in his films . Okay, so that movie comes out and is the story of jewish commandoes on a revenge mission. And when it comes out a lot of the x troopers were still alive and they were very hurt and furious by it. Because, one of the things that was very important to say is about the x troopers is that revenge was never on their consciousness. They were there to right the world, and follow the rules of war, i have been in touch recently with west point, it wants to use the story to actually train soldiers at west point. Because, in every instance where these men were put in an ethical dilemma, like interrogating somebody who was in charge at auschwitz, or capturing germans who had killed jews, they always follow the rules of war. So, when the movie comes out many of them were very hurt by it, and Peter Masters daughter, kim masters, and peter was on the bicycle trip, she was a really good hollywood reporter. And she wrote an amazing piece which is called Something Like, my dad was the real inglorious bastard, talking about that film, and talking about how wrong all was. Because they whenever bent on revenge, they were bent on winning the war, saving their families, and as they said over and over again, showing the naughtys but they were different, but they were ethical. That is a great way to end it, what we are going to do is try this, the powerpoint. Okay, i will just tell people certainly people i talked about. That is the cover of the book and that is the great Jeff Broadman in the middle. He was the one who said the tommy gun was his great love. He was a hard man, a great man, his son and grandson have spent their lives in the military as well. Next, please. This is the only group photo we have, they trained in , wales because Brian Hilton Jones was from wales, so, that is him lying down next to their mascot bulldog, that is our only group photo of them we. What was the mascots name . I hate to say it, it was a bulldog, they called it bully, that is why i never mentioned it, it is just silly. That is Peter Masters, who was on the bicycle, and that is him, i got this incredible photo from his son of him in the pioneer corps doing all of this hard labor as they felt when they were desperate to fight. So, that is him in the pioneer corps, that is their Commanding Officer who the men loved and were devoted to, Brian Hilton Jones. The welsh man. Who loved and was devoted to his men, and as they all said about him, he never made them do something he would not do first. If he had them practiced Something Like jumping out of the airplane he would go first, always. Next, please. That is just a stock photo of the interally commando doing their training on the cliffs in wales. Next, please. That is george lane, who i said one of them had made the way for the dday landings. That was george lane. It has a whole, Amazing Stories that you can read about in the book. Next, please. That is Peter Masters from the bicycle trip. Who was this artist and who goes on to have a long, incredible career as an artist in washington, d. C. Next, please. That is the bicycle troop landing, you can see them carrying these awful, awful, clunky foldable bikes. One of the commandoes said who is with a different unit, there is nothing worse you can be within one of these bikes, but they did get to pegasus bridge faster than anyone else. That is an amazing photo, that is Maurice Latimer on the right, it has just gotten in that tower i mentioned. And, as Peter Masters wrote about this photo, he said is the most wonderful antidote to that horrible photo we all have in our head of the holocaust. Of the jewish boy whose hands are up with the nazi shooting their gun at him. Here we have a jewish socialist holding his tommy gun and capturing not days. So, i totally agree with that interpretation of this. Next, please. That is after he has captured more than 300 men he was one of the most amazing characters, what he ends up having to send to his funeral, which is how i and the book. So, hopefully you will read it and say that, that was a famous photo from the war, that is Manfred Gantz who i talked about, who was at walkerin, who was Orthodox Jewish and has the story of finding his parents after the war. And that is his family, i guess i gave the story away, after he finds them, that is his dad and his mom. And he is in the back right after the war. And, next, please. That is the british cover because i know we get people in the uk as well. That is the photos, yes, feel free to let us know if you have a questions because i look forward to answering them. Yes, it has been a great conversation, i want to give a shout out to leroy hersh, who is watching. Leroy is a naval veteran of world war ii, says this meeting was of extreme interest, leroy thank you for your service and your support, thank you all for your support and for tuning in for what i thought was a great conversation, i usually read the books a couple times before the interviews, just to make sure i know what i am talking about. I read this one about three times, though, it is a great read. I do not want to say it is fun, nothing about war is fun but it is very engaging and i recommend you get it. From our web store, of course, but also from your local bookstore if you would like. The author is doctor leah garrett. The book is x troop and we want to thank doctor leah garrett for being with us today. We look forward to the conversation we will have in our article format, stay tuned to our website for that, and we look forward to having dr. Leah garrett down here in person once things get a little bit more back to normal. Whether that is to talk about x troop or the young lion, or whatever your next project may be. Thank you very much for joining us today. And thank you so much, jeremy, that was wonderful and i am really glad i got to be here. Thank you, audience, for coming, im very grateful you are here today. We hope you stay tuned to the Museum Website for upcoming programs. And, let us know what you think of them in the comment box. We will see you next week. Goodbye