Transcripts For CSPAN3 The Presidency Woodrow Wilson In An Age Of Racial Reckoning 20221103

Tv every saturday or anytime online at cspan. Org slash history. Weekends on csn two are an intellectual feast, every saturday American History tv documents america story. And on sundays, book tv brings you the latest in nonfiction books and authors. Funding for cspan two comes from these Television Companies and more. Including comcast. You think this is just a Community Center . No, it is way more than that. Comcast is panering with so students from low income families can get the tools they need to be ready for anything. Comcast, along with these Television Companies support cspan two as a Public Service. The Woodrow Wilson International Center for scholars aim to unite the world of ideas to the world of policy, by supporting preeminent scholarship and linking that scholarship to issues of concern to officials in washington. Congress established the center in 1968 as the official National Memorial to president wilson. Unlike the physical monuments in the nations capital, it is a living memorial whose work and scholarship commemorates, quote, the ideals and concerns of Woodrow Wilson. As both a distinguished scholar and national leader, president wilson felt strongly that the scholar and the policy maker were, quote, engaged in a common enterprise. Today, the center takes seriously its views on the need to bridge the gap between the world of ideas and the world of policy. Bringing them into creative contact, enriching the work of both and enabling each to learn from the other. This series, wilson then and now, is our effort to make wilson and his period more central to that creative contact between ideas and practice in national and global affairs. In a critical and inclusive way, we seek to highlight work on wilson and his time that offers explicit or implicit lessons for contemporary or enduring problems in public and international life. For this episode, we wanted to look beyond Academic Work in a narrow sense of articles and monographs. And look at the work of public scholars wrestling with the challenges with commemorating our past. To commemorate means to remember together. How should we collectively remember a past that has left so many different legacies for different people . More to the point today, how should we remember a figure like Woodrow Wilson . Whose legacy is both internally inconsistent and publicly contested. Can we find a way to explore and discuss the good, the bad and the ugly in our past when we dont always agree even on the meaning of those terms . And must we try . These are questions that hit home. This very series is part of a Wilson Centered effort to remember wilson in a way that is neither self servingly celebratory, nor cathartically damning, but relevant and useful to the greatest possible number of those americans who, today, are trying to build a better, richer, fairer commonwealth than the one they inherited. Later, you will hear from me about complimentary efforts. Including one to reimagine the centers permanent exhibit on wilsons life and legacys. And another to celebrate the life and legacies of a prominent wilson critic. First, however, i want to welcome two guests. Who, not coincidentally, have been struggling with some of the same questions and challenges we have here. And have generously offered to share their stories. Robin robin von seldenecks president and ceo of the Woodrow Wilson president ial library and museum in staunton, virginia. Excuse me, stanton, virginia. As a wilson scholar im mortified i mispronounced that. The birthplace of the 20th president. Robin first volunteered at what was then called Woodrow Wilson Birthplace Foundation as a College Student at next door Mary Baldwin University just as the university was prepared to open. She maintained the relationship and eventually became ceo and director of finance before assuming overall leadership of the organization. In the meantime, robin earned a masters in Public Administration from James Madison university, served as dean of students at Stuart Hall High School and worked at Student Administration both mary baldwin and James Madison. While overseeing the Wilson Library and museum, robin also serves on the virginias ocean of museums governing council. Where she represents museums in the mountain and valley district. As well as on the Advisory Board of visitors for Mary Baldwin University. She lives in stanton with her family. Welcome, robin. Thank you very much. Elizabeth karcher is the executive director of the president Woodrow Wilson the house on s street in washington, d. C. A site owned and managed for the National Site for Historic Preservation that provides a window into wilsons retirement in its actual and perfectly preserved setting. Also an intimate look at wilsons overall life and legacy. Prior to joining the National Trust and wilson house, elizabeth worked at discovery incorporated. A leading global media company. And served in many roles at the National Federation of womens clubs and the Junior Womens Club of chevy chase, maryland. Including serving as Club President , where she let the club transition to a 501 c 3 organization. Elizabeth received her bachelor of arts in International Affairs from the International University of paris, france before earning a bachelor of arts and International Relations from rogers university. Her interest in International Affairs extends far beyond her interest in wilson. Shes an adviser to the board of the chanta foundation, which supports Sustainable Development in rural myanmar. Elizabeth lives in washington with her husband. Welcome, elizabeth. And welcome to our viewers from across the United States and many other places. We are grateful to have you with us, and eager to include you. After our two guests speak, i will respond with some questions and observations of my own. And that began cleaning comments and questions from the chat, which i urge you to fill. I ask only that you maintain a tone of inquiry and attitude of curiosity, taking care not to foreclose others questions or contributions. Lets get started. Robin, can i ask you to talk a little bit about your work at the Woodrow Wilson president ial museum and library in stanton, virginia . Sure, good afternoon, hello from stanton, virginia. It is a pleasure to be with you as we discuss this very important topic of Woodrow Wilsons legacy. Its a topic we discuss regularly on our board and staff, and alongside our visitors as we learn together. Our goal with Woodrow Wilson president ial library is to tell the story of Woodrow Wilson from birth to death. In an honest and objective fashion. We are just as comfortable showing the positives and the negatives. Or as we often say here, we talk about Woodrow Wilson, warts and all. The Woodrow Wilson president ial library, which is located at his first place, as you mentioned, has evolved over the years from its original incorporation as what was that known as the winter wasnt Birthplace Foundation. Our mission is to promote an understanding of the complexities of the life and times of Woodrow Wilson, his influence on the world, his relevancy today and for the future. This mission is a very different one than the original mission of the organization when it first opened in 1938. That mission stated that the goal of the organization was to purchase, preserve and maintain the birthplace to the end that that said property might be forever set apart as a National Shrine dedicated to the ideals and purposes for which Woodrow Wilson lived and died. That men of every nation and alltime might have a fair opportunity to enjoy the fruits of democracy. And thus be better enabled to attain the mental, moral, Spiritual Development intended for them by their divine creator. So, as i noted, the Woodrow Wilson president ial library was incorporated in 1938 as that Woodrow Wilson first place. Who was officially dedicated in 1941 by president Franklin Roosevelt as, quote, a new shrine of freedom. Regional trustees of the organization came from National Prominence and included such individuals as United States senators, members of wilsons cabinet and university professors, among others. The first president of the organization was mrs. Francis wits hall. Choose a staunton native and wife of the United States secretary of state cornell cole. Although not a board member, the biggest cheerleader and find this is mover and shaker was none other than wilsons widow, edith gault wilson. The library has evolved over the years from its original purpose, and over the years of acquiring some of the adjacent properties here, beside the birthplace, the Foundation Open the Woodrow Wilson museum with exhibits highlighting wilsons life and Public Service in 1990. And then entered it opened the library and Research Center in 2008. We will remain that which are listened president ial library in 2004, and it is an Educational Institution dedicated to but the study of wilsons life and the times in which he lived. From precivil war, 1856, to post world war i, 1924. Many of the issues we grapple with today as a country, things such as the role of federal government, immigration, womens issues, Race Relations, taxes, americas role in the world, these were all prominent concerns during wilsons time. At the Woodrow Wilson president ial library provides the historic background to understand the subjects. During our 83 year history, this institution has educated millions of individuals about these issues surrounding the 28th president. And the critical era in which he lived. To explain just a little more about him and who we are, our campus includes the presbyterian area where wilson was born. And we provide guided tours that highlight mid 19th century life in stanton, virginia. We feature both the Wilson Family but we also talked about the enslaved workers who lived and worked in that home when wilson was born there. A museum has seven permanent galleries, including an interactive world war i trench exhibit and president wilsons 1919 peers era president ial clemency. We talk about his birth and childhood in the south, his educational pursuits, his political life as governor of new jersey and president of the United States. But we have a temporary gallery where you try to explore life as it resonates with contemporary society. Looking at relevance for today. For example, our recent exhibit, protesting the president , compared protest topics from 1920 to today. Topic such as suffrage and civil rights issues. It shows how we really havent gone as far as we think we have as a society. Our team here is committed to creating learning opportunities that emphasize histories significance in todays world. Our traditional k through 12 Educational Programming provides school tours and outreach programs to schools. We were closely with the Virginia Department of education to ensure that programs meet the needs of teachers and students of all age. Additionally, we have symposia, lectures, panel discussions, guest speakers, a wide variety of topics that we cover as an ongoing part of our ongoing programs for adults. I think its important to state, we know and understand Woodrow Wilson is neither fondly remembered nor well understood by many americans. And the reality is that president wilson is a polarizing historical figure. But we are committed to discussing his full story. So, while we celebrate the Domestic Legislation that wilson signed into law and the new directions he chartered and Foreign Policy during the first world war, that shaped the politics and diplomacy of the United States throughout the 20th century and beyond, we also detail his deplorable views on race and segregation, and its Lasting Impact on the progress of social justice. So, as we look forward to the 250th anniversary of our founding of our country, we believe that we must examine the challenges that keep us from that ideal of human equality. A decision to focus on those issues in america, the world during wilsons time and how he both influenced and was influenced by these. Thank you. Thank you very much, robin, appreciate that. Elizabeth, will you please tell us about your work at the s street house . As i was socialized to call it. I like that, s street house. The name is the Woodrow Wilson house, it changed names about 12 years ago to the president Woodrow Wilson house. The wilson house, as we called it among ourselves, the wilson house, was also originally described as a shrine to Woodrow Wilson. The house itself was built by a famous architect, washington, d. C. , architect, rod therwood. The wilsons moved into that house of 1921 on inauguration day. Many people to call it the house on s street, in kalora. But when edith and wilson went on to live there for another three years, he died of course in 1924 in this house, edith wilson went on to live in this house for another 37 years. So, in fact, having lived in the house for close to 40 years, he really did put a stamp on what the house would be. And she bequeathed it to the National Trust for Historic Preservation upon her death. In 1961. And it was opened to the public in 1963, became really officially a Historic House and museum in 1965. Her letters up equipment referred to it as being a shrine to Woodrow Wilson. And so, we struggle with that. Because we are not really a shrine any longer. We talk about it as being a place where we can talk freely about his legacy and the legacy that he has left. And legacy, i think, is a much richer word. It describes things that are both positive and negative. The consequences and result of some of the legislation in parts of his administration that, today, where realizing what that legacy is actually leaving. Such consequences of that legacy. The house itself is authentic and that we have over 8400 pieces of artifacts in the collection. As you can see behind me, the library is really untouched from the day that edith had turned it over to the National Trust. Very interestingly, for me, i came across a photograph of the house that was put into architectural digest in 1921, when the wilsons moved in. And in fact, architectural digest captured it and it looks very much like it did then. The wilson house is set up similarly to the library and the president ial library and museum in that we do tours, we have visitors come to do different types of tours. Those tours have changed since 1965. In todays world, what we focus on is wilsons legacy as president. His president ial years. But other things as well, we talked about the full story of the people who lived in this house, worked in this house. When we look at the architecture of the house and what it meant to be this style of architecture from the time. They do a tour called upstairs downstairs, where we describe the life of edith wilson in one day and that the people who lived in the house around her, to support the lifestyle in this house. In the subtle nuances that you find in a Historic House like this, they really describe what the upstairs downstairs means. We have now an Advisory Council which we have grown in the last two and a half years since i have started at the wilson house. That has been very, very rewarding because my Advisory Council, our members are from all over the world, actually. And some of them are still big fans of wilson and that wilsonian era and others are very think, for us, with our mission of life sometimes that changes it. Right. The reason i bring up the question is because i think its one that, at least i can imagine, which are wilson saying it should be the people most affected who should decide. The problem with that is that is also the argument that was used for home rule in the south and to maintain segregation and all of these other terrible things. So, it is a wickedly complex problem i think. And perhaps the best thing to do, perhaps the only kind of ironclad rule is to make sure you talk about it more, more openly, rather than Scholar Program and we find that the scholars are the next generation and they bring so much life and energy and new ideas to a way we can interpret this house intel news tories. We try to they love to be engaged in conversations like this, where we hear what people have to say and what they think about how we should be remembering the president. With a consequential legacy of Woodrow Wilson. So, thank you for including me, im happy to be here today. Thank you very much, elizabeth. And thanks again, robin. Im going to talk a little bit about the more nascent, although very much in process, efforts of the Wilson Center to redo its permanent exhibition on wilsons life and legacy. And then, when im done, perhaps we can turn to questions about maybe some more specific questions about some of the efforts that each of you make, to highlight the complexities and how you engage with your visitors, both virtual and inperson. But first, i want to give a little update on our own efforts here at the Wilson Center. As i said earlier, the Wilson Center was chartered by congress in 1968 is the official memorial to Woodrow Wilson. And as such, we have a responsibility to present a public exhibition to help educate contemporary audiences about wilsons career, policies, and his legacy. In line with the Wilson Centers chartered role as an International Affairs think tank, our current exhibition focuses on wilsons exhibition for a more peaceful global community. But it does not represent his views even on those topics, his presidency and his legacy and its full complexity. We were aware of that before events of the past several years, and we are even more painfully aware of that today. As the nation is keen on present policy forum, the Wilson Center tackles difficult issues everyday through independent research and open dialogue. The point of our, i guess, exhibit revamp, is to draw on this experience, to reimagine the exhibition in a way that acknowledges which are wilsons Visionary Leadership on a national and global scale in some areas. It also addresses his more troubling legacies. Especially as regards race but also in other areas as well. First, let me just review the exhibition goals as we have identified them over the last several moments. In reimagining the exhibition, the Wilson Center seeks to, first, we examine his legacy based on current scholarship. Its been a long time since the current exhibition was put in place. Second, to reflect multiple points of view, including criticism of president wilson. Third, to perform a forum for open dialogue about president wilson and his legacy. We also want to create a more welcoming and inclusive and Visitor Friendly experience, establish a flexible Multi Purpose space for films and Public Programs and events, ways that we can support work at the Wilson Center and by other partners in exploring relevant topics in American History and relating them to our current concerns. We want to increase of visibility of the Wilson Center. We want to expand visitation and program attendance. Finally, we want to create connections between the exhibition and the rest of the Wilson Centers work and encourage visitors to explore connections between president wilsons era and contemporary public life. I want to make just a few comments on three or four of these goals with which i personally have been most engaged. The first, for the first two, are the related goals of reflecting multiple points of view and providing a forum for open dialogue about wilson and his legacy. For all his many faults, wilson was perhaps the most eloquent of all our president s and articulating an ideal of democracy with deliberation at its core. And ideal he called Common Council. The crux of that ideal is that everyone learns most when the best decisions are made through processes, including the widest scope of experiences, interests and opinions. And victim all into genuine conversation with one another. Obviously, wilson did not always practice his ideal perfectly. And indeed, in several important instances, especially when issues of race are involved, he seemed to forget or ignore it entirely. But my personal assessment of the record is that he actually practiced it far more consistently than most people, and most human beings, practice their own cherished ideas. Indeed, in his day, before a slew of mid 20th century books mostly seeking to explain the u. S. Senate failure to ratify the versailles treaty in terms of wilsons personal psychology, wilson was frequently praised by his princeton at washington acquaintances. Not just his friends. For his solicitation of and careful attention to criticism. Thus, one duty i think the Wilson Center has is to resist the current trend to consign wilson entirely to the devil. For one thing, too much of what is published in the media and increasingly in scholarly circles is factually incorrect. Wilson, for instance, never promoted the lost cause of the confederacy. From his youngest days to his death, he celebrated the defeat of the south and explicitly the end of slavery. He never praised the kkk, he denounced it in the harshest terms. He never endorsed birth of the nation, but asked major theaters not to show it. And examples can be multiplied. This is not to excuse wilson for any of the terrible things that he did do and the consequential and damaging legacy, not just for Race Relations but for actual living, black americans, both in his day ended our own. It is just to say that i think, in todays day and age, it is critical that an organization like the Wilson Center insist on the importance of facts. Where, if we no longer believe and facts on the importance of evidence that can be and has been examined inter subjectively. Theres plenty to criticize wilson for without assuming things based on his southern birth or making things up. That way, to me, only invites a damaging backlash. Second point, i think making wilson into a caricature or hideous, alien monster that in no way resembles his enlightened white progressive descendants of todays dangerous to the cause of racial justice. The fact is, wilson, i dont think, was that different from many folks today. He did not sit around thinking about how to prevent black americans from obtaining justice and achieving equality. He basically did not care at all about black americans. When he did think about them, he preferred to think that his tendency to say the right things about democracy, or his overall support of progressive and even radical policies, was enough. Enough to absolve him of making uncomfortable personal sacrifices or political sacrifices. Sacrifices of pride, sacrifices of moral comfort and epistemic and moral authority. These are not danger is unique to a century ago. But that is not really my most important point. My main point is that i think it is essential that institution chartered by congress to promote wilsons best ideals do just that. Promote his best ideals and do a much better job of it than he ever did himself. I cant think of a time when it was more important to foster courageous, tolerant and constructive sharing of stories and experiences. Of hopes and fears, of assessments and ideas across deep differences, then it is today. When our foremost systems of political decisionmaking seem less and less equipped in many instances to foster that sort of collective learning and public work. The second cycles i want to address briefly as that of connecting connections between the exhibition and the larger work of the Wilson Center, and encouraging visitors to see connections between wilsons era and contemporary public life. The Wilson Center is involved in an incredible range of constructive work to improve human life and foster thriving, free communities across the globe. In the vast majority of the cases, from what i can tell, it does that work in a way that translates wilsons ideal of Common Council into practice better than he did. Its various teams and working groups do not dream of solutions to other peoples problems and then simply dispense or impose them. They work in concert with governments, nonprofits, voluntary organizations, Educational Institutions and activists all over the globe to cocreator solutions and to leverage the talents, the wisdom and work of people who are actually living the conditions and concern them. I think visitors should know about this work and take hope from it. After all, it is done by a Public Institution and is done in their name. That said, wilson often thought he and his government were doing the same kind of deeply democratic work. As a study of the record, and soon our exhibit, will make clear however, he often was not. One reason, therefore, to present wilson not as a demon or monster or failure or hypocrite, but as a complex person dealing with enormous challenges and trying, at least some of the time, to do the right thing, its to spur people to ask themselves, what is this place doing . What is this organization or Public Institutions doing, that i should support and learn from, and what might its blind spots be . What about other organizations that act in my name, in the name of the u. S. Government . A government of we, the people . But in ways that i dont know much about. What constructive, even if uncomfortable questions, should i ask of the people who run those places . That brings me to my final point about the exhibit, which is the connection to contemporary public life. For all of my concerns about some of the contemporary literature on wilson it is troubling legacy, it is undeniable that that legacy is troubling. And if our center and our exhibition, in any way, appears to be sweeping any of those legacies under the rug, we are doing a disservice to ourselves and to the American People and everyone who visits the exhibition. We need to make it clear that at least we, as an organization, can confront these types of complexities and can welcome the opinions and reactions and suggestions and creative, constructive ideas and solutions of people outside of our think tank. Inside of our organization, outside of our familiar sphere of experts. And i really hope, and believe, that the team we have working on the revamp of the wilson exhibition is doing its best to do that. And i look forward to the results and i look forward to peoples reactions to it when it is finally unveiled. Before i open it up for questions, i want to make one more mention of another area in which the Wilson Center is trying to take this new approach towards commemoration of Woodrow Wilson. A new president and ceo, ambassador marc greene, has asked that the Wilson Center launch a new award. And the details of this are still in formulation, but an award honoring a very, very prominent critic of wilson, along very much the same lines that he is criticize today. Namely, William Monroe trotter, the prominent African American civil rights activist, boston based editor of the boston guardian. Also not just for his contra attempts with wilson in 1914, but for a lifetime of unbelievably constructive work to advance that civil rights of African Americans. As well as to advance the rights and Living Conditions and Political Freedoms of people of color all across the world. So, i ask that everyone keep their attention open to announcements about what for now i will call the William Monroe trotter award. And im eager as i hope many of you are to see how that shapes up. So, thank you very much. I know there has been some already, how shall i say, animated discussion in the chat. And im eager to get to some of those questions. Maybe first, i could ask a question that is a little bit more directed toward the work of our two guests. I want if i could put each of you on the spot to give a really concrete example of either an example with a particular set of visitors or a really tough problem you recall working through with your stuff on how to communicate wilsons complex legacy. In real concrete terms, a little vignette of the work youre trying to do. To start with you, robin . Absolutely. The first thing that pops into my mind when you mention that is looking at some of the exhibit labels that are in our museum. One of the things we did after the murder of george floyd, we, like so many other museums, put out a statement of support for our black community. And did some soul searching for us as well. We spend a lot of our time doing training, so that we are becoming more aware of looking at diverse viewpoints and seeing where those blind spots might be. One of the areas we looked at was exhibit labels, and we realized how we were framing something in a way that really wasnt as, i dont want to say it wasnt accurate, but it wasnt a full moral, objective view. But we purposefully did was change that exhibit label but left the old one up, made it so you could see where we had to change that. And we put a description of why we felt that was important to change. That we are becoming more inclusive in our thoughts and sharing those viewpoints. I think one of the things we deal with constantly is, being museum professionals, that we have to continue to be objective. So often, theres so much emotion about these very topics. You have to balance that emotional piece of that with the objective piece of what our job is, and that is just one example that came up. Thank you. At the Woodrow Wilson house, we have put through i should start by saying we have funding through the African American Cultural Heritage action fund, that is part of the National Trust for Historic Preservation. With that, many of the stories that we are looking to tell our to have a much fuller story and to bring African American stories to life at the Woodrow Wilson house. Whether we talk about people who lived and worked in the house, the scots where the family, the husband and wife, that supported the wilsons living there for over 15 years. We had a Speaker Series last spring. It started on suffrage to celebrate the centennial of the 19th amendment. That Speaker Series, it was on zoom, it was extraordinarily successful for the Woodrow Wilson house in that we switched from being in person to now online. Online, we had sometimes over 100 people tuning in. Which was really great, because we never would have been able to have 100 people at the wilson house for those kinds of talks. Then, of course, with the murder last summer of george floyd, we changed the topic to wilson and race. We are very directed and deliberate about having professor eric yellin spoke, historians to bring to light, tell the story and explain what do we mean by racism. What does this mean . One of the things we found is a lot of people didnt they were surprised. They said, i didnt learn that, why didnt i know that . And some, ways its the same stories we hear from people who would attend the Speaker Series on suffrage. To say, gosh, i didnt know that. I had a fairly decent education, why didnt i know that about suffrage . Or about wilson and race or about his administration. Weve taken these things to light. I agree, with the exhibitions, i love the idea of having the plack explain what we used to see and what we say today. The wilson house will be a museum celebrating 60 years and the coming year, and were looking to put their an exhibition on how we have changed as an exhibition space and as a museum over 60 years. And tell that story, which i think is actually fascinating. To say how did we portray ourselves a 1963, 1965. And how do we do that today. But a very, very concrete story that just happened recently was with young girl scout who came. It was a new program that were trying to explore at the wilson house, have young girl scouts come. The ask, and i was there, i helped facilitate this conversation. They said to me, how can this person be a racist . What do you mean he was racist . And what do you mean by what was good about him, if he was so bad because he was a racist . And i said to these young ladies, you know, did you take the metro here today . They said, yes. I said, did you watch tv and hear things that happened in the world that make you think, wow, america should be waving our flag and out there helping those people and doing things . Did you hear about haiti a few weeks ago, china, do you think america should be waving the flags . I said, when you took the metro today, did you see Homeless People on the street walking to the Woodrow Wilson house . Yes, we did. I said, did you say anything to them . Did you help them . Did you give them any money . No. And that really struck them, to say yes, its almost american to our core that we feel we should be helping and feeling like we should be having this influence on a vision of world peace. And yet, sometimes, we will walk right over the people who are outside our front door. Right outside the metro in washington, d. C. And that is an extraordinarily concrete vision that those girl scouts came away with, they keep that they dont have to just learn about wilson and a vision of world peace. They need to learn about whats happening in their own backyard. Thats a very arresting story. Yes, thank you very much. Related a little bit to what you just mentioned, elizabeth, the people coming out and saying, why didnt i know this, i dont exactly know what people are talking about law. When they say, he, wilson did this or didnt do this. We had a question asking us to summarize wilsons attitudes and actions on race, rather than just refer to them or talk around them. First of all, i will refer people to our previous installment of the series, wilson then and now, which was on wilson and the politics of race. I dont know that really either of us are equipped to do that in the time we have. But maybe i could try to address that question by asking each of you to explain the major events and wilsons career, or the major statements that he made or publications but you have found people most concerned, that you address head on. And then talk about how you addressed those. That would be a way to give people an idea of some of the actions, some of the statements that unfortunately i dont think we can summarize, the entire subject of wilson and race today. But that might be a way to get added in a concrete way. So, robin, do you mind if again i turn to you . What is the main thing about wilson and race that you just knew you had to confront because people were asking you to confront . Sure. The first thing that comes to mind is about the viewing of birth of the nation and the white house. I know there has been a quote that has been attributed to wilson about that very filming. That there is no evidence whatsoever that he uttered the words it was like writing history with lightning. But its his association with that viewing of that film, which incidentally was directed by a classmate in school, that is a huge class and that we get asked about a huge amount on a regular basis. One of the questions we get asked about, because we are in washington, d. C. , theres a high school, the Woodrow Wilson high school. Its a Public School in the Northwest Quadrant of washington, d. C. Not too far actually from the wilson house on s street. They have been struggling with the name change, and should they be changing the name of the Woodrow Wilson high school. I think thats a chance that the top is that might change to August Wilson high school, which frankly a lot of people, the commentary, is that is a bit of a cop out. To be changing it to our guest wilson. But nonetheless, that is the discussion. One of the questions that we get is the questions we get, why are they changing the name of the winter walls and high school . And what are you going to do at the wilson house . When the debate takes place in washington among this neighborhood, it talks about how that neighborhood had been an African American community. And because of the segregation of the federal government, that community itself, right where the Woodrow Wilson high school is located, was affected. Because now, that is not an African American community. So, that is one of the questions that we get. Give us a concrete idea of what exactly you are talking about when you say segregation and what happened. What were the consequences . And we talk about the Wilson School in northwest. Thank you very much. I have a comment in the chat asking to comment on the segregation of the federal government under wilson. This is probably the example of wilsons racism that comes up most for me in my circles, at least. And certainly is one of the major topics for us here at the Wilson Center, for obvious reasons. We are here in washington d. C. , and where specifically commemorating his presidency. When wilson took office, he had two cabinet members and particular, William Gibbs mcatee and albert sydney bernal son, and others, who wanted to segregate their departments and had in mind more systemic segregation of federal bureaucracy generally. Mcatee was secretary of the treasury and wilson was postmaster general. Wilsons public commitments to several delegations of black civil rights leaders, when he received the nomination for the presidency from the democratic party. As well as to some prominent white supporters a black civil rights, such as oswald garrison villard. To, quote, do justice to the negro. And not to reduce the number of federal appointments, for instance, that had traditionally been part of the patronage machine under the republicans who had been in control for most of the past couple generations of the white house. Boston and matt today sort of a fed wilson a story that both black and white employees and their offices were super uncomfortable working together, and that segregation was the way to go. They talked to all the prominent pastors in d. C. And i also pointed this. Obviously, my reading is that, for wilson to have so easily swallowed this line of reasoning, is a sign of his racism. The idea that African Americans would turn to segregation as a way to overcome, even if they had discomforts of their own, just shows and utter lack of empathy, intellectual empathy at least for people in the position of these black federal workers. It became a huge public issue for wilson. For one thing, he had a new to make credit Democratic Congress and he depended upon the votes of a lot of southern democrats who are much more conservative than he was, in order to push through a lot of hints domestic, economic legislation to support working people. To make credit more available to farmers and Small Business people through what eventually became the federal reserve. To better regulate the trusts. To revise the tariff schedules, so they were not just to enrich large corporations but at the expense of consumers. He found it very, very difficult, i think, to backtrack. A, because he really was not all that concerned and found that, because of his wreathsism, that this would be best for both sides. And also politically because he worried about alienating many of the southern democrats. He also, at the same time, was getting all sorts of very public, especially in the south and southern papers, very public criticism for appointing black americans to federal positions. Especially in a couple instances where he put names forward for african American People to actually supervise white employees. So, that is the story as i understand it. Often, the story is told, i think, in two ways. Either it wasnt wilsons fault, it was his cabinet members and he was too busy doing other things, which is not true. They share his cabinet, hes in charge of the executive branch, he bears responsibility. Or the storys wilson came into office bound and determined to enforce segregation and, thereby, revitalize or invigorates aggregation in American Society as a whole. That is also just not true, as far as i read to the record. And another version of that story is that the federal government was long being desegregated by republicans, and that truly doesnt quite hold up to scrutiny. Taft was also desegregating sorry, people in the Taft Administration were also segregating federal offices. That same policy also continued under wilsons successors, after he left, his republican successors after he left office. And i had long been a very concerted southern strategy among republican gop to support local and statewide efforts to suppress the African American vote in the south. And support segregationist policies as a way to try and make in into the southern democrat vote. The trial when southerners over to the republican party. So, i think this is an example, and there are many others, of just the sheer complexity of one single issue in this history of Wilsons Rachel thinking and policies. And the summary i gave is not meant to absolve wilson of any guilt, its just an effort to tell, from what i have read and studied over many years, to tell the most accurate story about it as i can. And to tell a story that hopefully will prompt us to think about the lessons we can learn that really apply to our current day and age. Rather than open us up to very simple conclusions like, oh, thats just revisionist history and youre just trying to take a hatchet Woodrow Wilson. Or, everyone knows that wilson was the most hideous races to ever occupy the white house, other than the 12 slaveowners of course, who occupy that position. So, i hope that was useful to people. We got more than one comment from people asking to review that particular episode of wilson from that particular career. Okay, im going to turn to, im going to try to several comments and questions into larger comments and questions. A lot of commentary on was wilson a hypocrite. I guess, from the perspective of someone trying to put together a Museum Exhibition on his life and legacy, what is the value and asking that question . Or is there a different question that we can ask. So, elizabeth, do you want to go first this time . Sure. When i came to the wilson house, my very first idea on an exhibition was on flawed leaders. And to look at what Charles Wilson and his flaws and, as robin said, warts and all, wilson warts and all. But to compare him to you and look at other world leaders. Doesnt even have to be world leaders, it can be american leaders that are flawed leaders. And what are those flaws . Its remarkable, if you look at a number of them, theyre serious character flaw is on race. On race or on views of other. People who are different, whether its a woman or i thought that would be a great exhibition. What the right way to address wilsons flaws. One of the other ideas we have percolating for an exhibition is on fake news propaganda and First Amendment rights. And how that has changed over the last hundred years. That, once again, goes into that dichotomy. And how do we justify this very thin line of what the right to have that. Those are things were thinking of at the wilson house. Thank you. Robin, do you want to take on the hypocrite and or other questions . Ill start by saying, i think it was in 2015, the talk of Princeton University about what do we do with wilson. That was on the top first started. And a fellow colleague who is no longer associated with it, with another president ial library, call me. And said, good luck with this, i dont envy you. And i said, no, be careful, your time is coming. I wont say which one it was but that time has come. And i think it was something where we can look at all our president s and see. It i think, so often, we want to glorify all our leaders and only see them at their best ideals. But to me, when we look and study and human being, whether theyre president of the United States or mayor of a small city, it doesnt matter that we are looking at a person. Their positives but also their flaws, what makes them, and what we can learn from them is the most important thing to me. I think so often its possible this in our class houses and throw those rocks when we maybe need to be reflecting within. Thats why want to see us go, as our organization. Were actually in the middle of a planning stage to completely redo our museum anyway. It is past time, we want to expand that. And that some of the things that we want to look at, what we can take from not just Woodrow Wilson but from any historical figure. And reflect on that, for that relevancy of how that changed me and what i can learn from this. I will say, it was before my time here, but there is a wonderful, in 2006, symposium. John Milton Cooper and dr. Tom knock put it together on behalf of the which i was in president ial library, it is exploring wilson, lincoln, jefferson on race. You can purchase the book from the university of virginia on the essays that were given. And it is so fascinating to read and to be able to see, even in 2006, the conversation that we are having. Interestingly enough, there wasnt as much interest in that as it would be today. So, it is something that we definitely strive to really put forth, those conversations. Im glad you mentioned that book, robin. All of the essays and there are brilliant, i can say that because i didnt contribute to it. One that i will particularly mentioned to people on this at this out here is by the late manning mirabel, who wrote probably the best overview of wilson and race that ive ever seen in a short, maybe, 20 page article. Manning mirabel, very prominent African American scholar, biographer of w. E. B. To boys. One of the best critical examinations of wilsons record on race that ive read. I think, still the best, certainly in that small space. Couple comments, just from the chat. People responded to this idea of otherness as a human, universal pitfall. And how it is interesting that wilson not only appointed the First Jewish Supreme Court justice and took a lot of political heat for that, that would be louis brandeis. Also pointed the first jewish faculty and catholic faculty to princeton. On at a time when that place was almost as hostile to those two types of people as to African Americans. But then again, was not willing to go so far as to get behind and support the application of black students to princeton. His excuse was, you know, this was a place where its kind of a finishing school for southern white gentlemen and youre probably not going to like it here. Well, he could have said the same thing to a jewish or catholic faculty member, and chose not to. So, why is that . Why did that racial otherness, or particular type of racial otherness, post such a greater barrier than some others . Another question that i tried to glean from the chats and build into a bigger meatball of a question, i guess, it is was wilsons domestic legacy, you know, valuable enough to commemorate . Despite all of these other sins . What was it that, after your careful study that you and your staff and advisers, internal, external, official, unofficial, have found really remains worth, lets say, commemorating . As at least potentially very valuable and inspiring. And, at the very least, extraordinarily consequential in terms of either the American Political Development or International Affairs. And maybe, well, we can start with whoever wants to answer first. I can start. We just recently redesigned our web page. Our web page was kind of limping along for a number of years, it was one of my goals to get it out there. We talked about, what do phds do when theyre not professors . Well, sometimes, they help redesign website and come up to do the research for us. This particular student really thought in terms of the name change with wilson, she thought, why dont you just become the museum of progressivism . I thought, thats not really going to i dont know how popular thats going to be. I like it a lot, but i think we need to keep it as of which are wilson halves. I bring that up because that is something that we look to. We can explain a lot with the evolution of progressives. If you look at a progressive today, what Woodrow Wilson recognize that as a progressive . If youre to take that compendium of time and see that evolution of what progressive manned. That is one of the things that were focusing on that we think is fascinating bag. We enjoy that and that is a discussion we engage in and that brings back to a core of wilsons policies and his identity. As well as something that we, as a museum, can explore. Almost forgot to unmute here for a second. You, know one of the things for us, and ill tell you how i have evolved in this. When i first started here, ill be really honest, i thought a lot of looking at wilsons domestic agenda is boring, it seemed dry. How do you really get someone interested and involved in what was happening . But at the same time, i have grown and evolved to say, wow, this is really what sets Woodrow Wilson apart. When you look at domestic reform and domestic achievements, there is only two other president s that i would put in that same category. That is Franklin Roosevelt and then also johnson. When we looked at his whole concept with the new freedom, so much of that is still with us today. And so, looking at how we can educate on those tenants of wilsons domestic reform its something thats really a great challenge for us. And one of the things that were doing is looking at what we call everyday heroes. Looking at people during Woodrow Wilsons time and how their life might have been changed due to some aspect of legislation that was passed by the president. For example, looking at the eight hour workday. How does that impact a Railroad Worker . Which was the largest employer during that time. That brings that, really, i hope, that that helps people when they come through. And are just trying to understand, what is the significance of wilson . Why is he so consequential . Whats the big deal about an eight hour workday . Well, what was life like before that . And the mom of two young man and i would joke about them that you have to think which are wilson that child labor laws are gone. We would joke about that. But i do think that is such an important piece that i have really come to feel the importance of, sharing that information, even more. Looking at wilson and all he was able to accomplish. And for whatever falls might be there or flaws, we havent come up with anything better, you know . We talk about the federal reserve, we talk about our taxation system. But were still dealing with it 100 years later because nothing has been able to pass, to change that legislation. So. I will say, in some ways this ties back to the discussion on race. And our speaker is here is we had people who are part of the Diplomatic Community or from the state department. One of them was African Americans. They pointed out that we can talk about Woodrow Wilson and that he was a racist and this is the book we can point to. But we had an opportunity to change that of the last hundred years that there hasnt really been much change. So, to just identify wilson as the turning point, we can do that but we should also then be pointing our finger all along the line. Of saying, why didnt change . We had an opportunity here to change it . And its really, in many ways, not until 1965 that theyre saying, yeah, there is a change. But even today, if youd ask people who are part of the state department and our African American, you can see just on the color of the department, there is still some institutional racism in some communities still within the United States government. So. Yes, thank you. I want to tie your comments to some previous comments you both made about your particular organizations missions and purposes. And the legal be quests involved, and the same is true for us. Then there is also the example of Woodrow Wilson high school in d. C. , a very prominent which are wilson scholar who is very near due to this particular institution happened to have graduated from. Ill try not to embarrass john cooper by revealing that everybody, but thats his alma mater. I dont think that was that he kind of nominative determinism, i think his wilson interest emerged later. But d. C. Born and bred was john cooper. That is the question of who should decide these questions of naming and commemoration or how do you decide who decides. For instance, during the first real powerful round of discussion about renaming the Woodrow Wilson school of Public International affairs. One prominent compromise that was put forward was, maybe we dont rename the school of International Affairs because it was named that way to commemorate that constructive legacy is in both American Political Development but also in the International Art growth of International Governance institutions. But why wouldnt we rename a princeton dorm, in which young people have to spend their most intimate, vulnerable moments . Sleeping, eating, dreaming, making friends. In a building named after someone that they, very understandably, might feel represents an ongoing threat to their comfort and safety and security. In your situation, can you imagine what would be your argument for maintaining the wilson name . Both, really, practical and philosophical. And you have thoughts on that larger question of sort of how do you decide who gets to decide . Again, we can start with whoever would like to go first. I will go first. We have actually, just a few years, ago had conversations with our board of trustees on is our name adequate for who we are and what we are doing. For us, our name is there not just because we are trying to wilson, but dedicated to the study and times of which are wilson. And he was a very consequential president of the United States. We would be doing a disservice if we changed our name does something else, like the president ial library to the president who shall not be named. It would put us out of business, basically, very to say were not talking about that person anymore. For us, that was where we stood. We feel very strongly that there is so much to learn. Not just from wilson, but were going to use that and example because thats who we are, from this individual and from his presidency. And we do want to make sure people dont realize, dont think that we are some sort of shrine. Because that is not who we are. And we hope, by the time a person from the gallery understands that. Our goal is to be objective and tell the full story. As far as waiting into who should be responsible for naming and how that should go, i just would refer to whether its the board of whichever organization for them to make that decision. Its not my place to decide. I have lots of individuals contact me to say, arent you going to do anything with princeton decided to ultimately change the name . But thats not my role. I have enough to worry about here. Its not my role to put myself into the business of what Princeton University is doing, for example. So, i just defer to the boards of whatever organization is handling that situation. I think its a great question, who should be responsible. Its really a great question. We, in practical terms, when i did too that revision to the website, our website is called www. Woodrow wilson dot org. And people find us on google and trip adviser and maps. So, out to go and double back on that and find to change the name, that would be very cumbersome. By the same token, there are some places i found where they did change the name to the president Woodrow Wilson house. And, so you can also find, i think on instagram were Woodrow Wilson house. Its interesting, how that where president got slipped and somewhere along the line. Now, we have an Online Presence with that. But to change the name to something else, what would we change it to . The house on s street, what would that tell anybody . The house, somebody had mentioned, why dont you change it to the edith and Woodrow Wilson house. Since they both lived in this house. And since she lived there for 37 years. I think that that is a fascinating subject. You know, should we consider changing it because its really her house . I know theres a new move for, i think its a group called flare, for the first ladies. Doing research, what the role of first ladies has been. And now that will change as we have women president s. But you, know this is really a story about Woodrow Wilson and we probably would not change it to the edith and Woodrow Wilson house. But its a discussion and its interesting. Well it may serve other purposes also, it goes without saying that changing into the edith and Woodrow Wilson house would not in any way to mitigate the problem with race. Not at all, not at all. It just compounds it. It would just compound that, yes, exactly. I know that what used to be the which are wilson home in South Carolina has done an excellent job. They are now the museum of reconstruction, because they are telling a fuller story about what life was like during that. So, that is an opportunity for a museum such as they to do Something Like that. To pivot on their mission, and i think they are doing wonderful work down there as well. I do want to highlight that it can be done. I just think, for us, with our mission of life sometimes that changes it. Right. The reason i bring up the question is because i think its one that, at least i can imagine, which are wilson saying it should be the people most affected who should decide. The problem with that is that is also the argument that was used for home rule in the south and to maintain segregation and all of these other terrible things. So, it is a wickedly complex problem i think. And perhaps the best thing to do, perhaps the only kind of ironclad rule is to make sure you talk about it more, more openly, rather than less. Before making any decisions. I was like to wrap these things up a little bit early, just because we live in a zoom age and i think that has led people into the habit of scheduling themselves literally back to back to back. But i want to know if either of the two of you wanted to make any closing comments. Anything you wanted to share that you didnt, or something that youve learned. Whatever you might want to share with the audience. Even if its a particular event or something that happened to your organization that you want to draw peoples attention to, or a new offering on the website. Sure, of course. Ill start. There are a number of events and activity is that we have been trying to foster and change, the conversation at the Woodrow Wilson house. I mentioned some of the tours that we do, our exhibitions. Last, year we had an exhibition in the garden so we could bring people in during covid to have an exhibition safely at the wilson house. And we continue to have exhibitions i think the exhibition before that was on migrations. I dont know if we had an opportunity to bring that up, but the topic was about the arab spring. And how the world has changed in 100 years through these. You see it through the arts. So, we do very diverse and very different types of exhibitions that are constantly tying the conversation back to what it was 100 years ago and how decisions that were made then fast forward to what are the consequences of those decisions today. We look to have a conversation with people. If there are things you wanted to bring up to the wilson house, send me an email. Send us a text. Let us know what you are thinking, come by the wilson house on s street. And a engage us in a conversation of what you would like to see changed. Last, week we had a someone filming about a town, africa town, in alabama. And it was a curator from the smithsonian. They used the wilson house to film and interview. They mentioned that it was just the irony that the African American museum of culture and history would film something at the Woodrow Wilson house. And how important that is today, to have those kinds of conversations about africa town, alabama, and a slave ship off the coast of alabama, the quote tilda. Talking about at the wilson house, that is really progress. That is what we want to do, thats what were looking to do and to engage new audiences by bringing those conversations into a house like which are wilson house. And so, i share that to say, keep the conversation going. We are only just at the tip of the iceberg of the type of conversations that we can have, that are rich and meaningful, that can bring in new ideas, new understandings, new perspectives. , so were welcoming, we welcome that and would like to see that. So, i thank you. What we will be doing a number of events, so check out our brandnew web page for the things that we do. Including hopefully well be having a fundraiser in the fall and we will get to see you all at the wilson house then. So, i thank you. Thank you. I will just add as elizabeth said, about the relevance for today. That is the key to what we do here, as well. We are so blessed to work with such great partners such as elizabeth and the work she is doing at the Woodrow Wilson house. We are we want to be a safe place for people to have these helpful conversations. This is how we grow and how we learn. I think it is something that we remain, you have the civil dialogue and look for the degrees of understanding. As we work to improve on our Museum Experience one of the things we are hoping that we can better engage. One thing is that we want people to reach out to us, to let us know your comments. Where do you think we have our blind spots . Where are the shortcomings . On the same thing, tell us what we are doing well. It is so important to hear from people. I encourage people to come down and visit us. We are only about two and a half hours southwest of d. C. On the intersection at interstate 81 and interstate 64. Just about 40 minutes to the west of charlottesville, virginia. We are easy to get to. We want people to come and see. We also have a virtual presence, that people can engage with us on our online programming we will be starting less than a month. We have taken a short break to do that. Another piece that i do want to mention, because i think this is key, is that we fund, its very important for us not to just wait for our community to come to us but that we go to our community. How are we with our community . For so long i know the African American community here in our small city of stanton, we have not reached out to them in the way we should. We will say, we are here, come join us but its an understanding that we need to sometimes go to them and see how we can build trust. I get it, i understand. It is very difficult no matter what our exhibited might be about. Sometimes you can be hard walking to a building that has the name of someone who stands for everything or stood for everything that you stand against. We want to be able to move forward with that. We are also doing archaeology here on our site, and one of the things we often went into that people dont know, Woodrow Wilson was the last president born into a home with enslaved individuals. That is a story that we think needs to be told. We are doing our research and trying to find names of the individuals and who they are, and you are research in partnering with the university and their archeology department. We have found that we have, on our site, what looks to be quarters i wouldve host enslaved individuals well before Woodrow Wilson wouldve been born. That is a story i think we have a moral obligation to tell. Who are these individuals . I am one of those who believe that racism is our regional scene as a country and we need to do all we can to tell a full story there. That is just one of the things we are doing to tell a more full story of who we are as a country and what our history is. Take you very much. I want to thank Elizabeth Berger of the Woodrow Wilson house in washington d. C. And robin van suthnick man of the Woodrow Wilson president ial library and Memorial Museum in stanton, virginia for joining us and for being as open as they can about their work and their passions, their ideals, and the challenges that come with those. I also want to thank every one of you who joined us for this episode in the series on Woodrow Wilson, and now. I want to point to our website where you can find previous episodes of the series where we address wilsons connection to past and contemporary issues of misinformation, government censorship, lost opportunities for peacemaking in the global arena, to the politics of race and wilsons day and our own. I would like to invite all of you to join us for our next installment which is devoted to the life of William Monroe trotter. We will have carey greenidge of Tufts University to talk to us using an infamous encounter between wilson and traveler in the law office. Not just to further explore some of the issues we have been exploring today, but also on trotter himself and his career and center stage to make sure people understand that he was more than just someone who got kicked out of wilsons office, but is someone from whom we can learn a lot and gain inspiration in other ways, as well. Thank you everybody for joining. Please join us again one final time i want to thank elizabeth and robin for a great conversation. I wish everyone a wonderful week. American history tv, saturdays on cspan two, exploring the people and events that tell the americans story. 8 pm eastern on lectures of history, a look at when polls go bad with American University Professor Joseph campbell. Who talks about public affection, election forecasting and some of the polling misses in american politics. On the presidency, at 9 30 pm. A look at the nuclear, biological and chemical weapons, with aaron megh, coauthor of averting doomsday. Explore the american story. 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