Transcripts For CSPAN3 The Future Of University Presses 20240708

First fiction. It was also a finalist for the 2020 National Book award in the fiction category. So welcome deesha. Thanks for joining us. We also have steven sparks whos the cone coowner of point reyes books out in california. Hes worked at green apple books and the dalke archive and he is on the boards of dorothy a publishing project open letter books and the center for the art of translation. Thank you stephen for joining us. And last we have john shear whos the director of the university of North Carolina, press it is the oldest Scholarly Publishing house in the south. I am as a bookseller. Im compelled to say as well that john is a former bookseller at olsons in washington dc. Oh, im sorry, washington. Not dc. So, thank you everyone. I am going to start out with a question for you d shop. You have as i said had an incredibly successful university, press book. So what brought you to West Virginia up . Why did you just what pulled you in that direction instead of looking forward or deciding to go with a more traditional trade house. I venture to say not many people have their first books of fiction published through a up. Um the poll was that West Virginia University Press believed in my book and believed in the collection and believe in the stories and were very present. You know, ive said this to writers about their agents, but i think its true for your presses as well. You know, they help you make a better book and they give you good feedback, but your agents your press everyone should be your biggest fans. And before the book got any Critical Response and even just hearing the concept and seeing the stories. They were early champions of the book and it it was so comforting to know that like there are people that care about this book like i care about this book and you know, and i think i was kind of racing for a fight especially as as a black writer and ive had peers who are also black writers who published prior to my publishing and there were some fights that they were having with their publishers and so the tenor right away in the tone from West Virginia university was very collegial and very congenial and you know, i when the room opened i immediately said hi to my West Virginia university, press family because thats what it felt like and i felt like um, you know, i knew that my book was in good hands. So we were strangers initially but not for long and i think that you know, that was was the difference. Yeah. Yeah, i think people forget or whether its easy to kind of forget how collaborative a process publishing can be that you know, theres the myth of the author but when putting a book out of the world, theres so much more to it. And if thats the you know, West Virginia up its who you connected with. Theres a reason to be drawn. Drawn to them to make a better book. Mmhmm. Im glad you found each other because its a fantastic book, um turning the question to john and steven. What are some of the unique strengths that youve that you see in University Presses . Ill call on one of you if you dont answer. Well, john could john could certainly answer this from me from the inside and you know as a bookseller, especially as we kind of see this increasing, you know corporatization of publishing and you know and and things kind of become more and more centralized. I find just the sort of diversity of voices and even geographical differences with University Presses to be extremely important for for a healthy publishing and book selling ecosystem. You know you have here, you know, im an hour away from uc press here in berkeley and as much you know, and as things kind of centralize and and you know, turn over in the turn of books becomes more and more important for everyone the sale you have to sell this book and theres such a short view that the long view of the of the scholarly and you know Academic Press outlook is really important as important for us to as booksellers to kind of keep that in mind and you know, i think in allowing the space for for new ideas and kind of risky ideas also is as exciting for me as a book seller as it is a reader, you know, i would be curious to hear john from from your side how you know how you know what it was the ultimate benefits for you because youve youve worked in both commercial tradein and in University Press publishing. Yeah in between my stent as a book seller and and being at North Carolina. I was at basic in new york, which is a pretty, you know, Mission Driven and yet still profit driven publisher, and i think i think that last point stephen i want to pick up on which is the the timeline for commercial publishers is theres this kind of urgency it is, you know over distributed book. Do your best to get a bunch of publicity and then after 90 days you kind of like start watching for the returns to come in because the Conveyor Belt of new books is like its just its happening. And so i think one of the strengths of University Presses is i mean, i love hearing what dish is saying about West Virginia and West Virginia has made all University Presses. Look good in the last two years. So thank you to that team there but that sense of partnership and you know, not every book is ready to bolt out of the gate and you know, grab all the attention and some books just take a while to find their readership to find that you know there that the champion and University Presses realize that the investment is in that that relationship with the author and the production of beautiful books and and its not to get that 90day, you know moment of like bliss and then move on its to sustain things and one of the things i was so impressed with in watching this book gets so much attention was the momentum that built i mean a commercial publisher might have said, okay, we had a good 90 days and now lets its time to move on next thing and i feel like this book this book really just kind of kept finding new readers and and iterating and really positive ways. I just think University Presses are built for that type of of campaign, and i its great to hear you stephen say that that the booksellers recognize that too because if you return our day our books after 90 days, none of us are going to sell it books. Can john can you expand on or anyone else here . Like what is it constitutionally about a University Press that makes them willing or able to commit to a longer timeline to for their books . Well, but part of it is part of is just the economics of it. So, you know a commercial publisher makes such an investment in you know, it usually in an advance and in printing and in coop space advertising and they just thats the Business Model it is get that roi in the first 90 days and if you dont have it, then its time to move on to the next you know item in your risk pool with the University Presses. Like i said, the investment is much more in the development of the kind of lack of a better face intellectual property or the creative Creative Work and so, you know most these things just take a while to find find readers and i so i just think you know because our risk isnt in this kind of our Business Model doesnt require the quick return on the investment that were actually better off with, you know, the proverbial long tail and that i just think thats were just built for that type of model and again if we have booksellers who understand that model and will give us the patients to to make sure that these books sell over time then i think it kind of works. So stephen what given that this tends to be the focus of ups and what comes out of ups . How do you see that reflected . And whats on the shelves and whats on the table that youre choosing to bring into your bookstore . How whats the difference between the types of things coming out from ups and the types of things coming out for me even serious trade nonpublishers. No, no publishers not nonpublishers. Um, you know, i think thank you aspect it was certainly that is big. Like University Presses do for us i think a lot where a general interest bookstore the kind of has a focus on natural role in the environment. And so, you know, you see presses field guide series is something that we would regardless whatever it is is california based. Its in the west we bring it in for other books, you know, its sort of books that are cutting edge that that kind of seem like theyre doing work that were going to be thinking about in a few years and so to kind of get a you know a foot in the door earlier to say like, okay, were were interested in this, you know, i think a lot about one of the kind of pre the questions you send a little earlier was was a whats kind of an emblematic University Press book and i think about anna sings mushroom at the end of the world, which was a book, you know, i think it came out 2016 and hard pepper. It was just in the past year released in a trade edition because this is the kind of book that laid some groundwork through word of mouth, you know, which is for a bookseller. Thats the best kind of hand sell, you know, like we want those books like we you know, we love the books that Marketing Budgets that get all the reviews and you know, but the book that we want to hand. Someone is the book that were passionate about that might not have that kind of marketing behind it. But you see a book like this. Its a slow burn it kind of goes and suddenly, you know, five years later through word of mouth and through citation. You have a book that that is and everyones sort of everyones consciousness and people come into the store and they say well ive heard of this and so you kind of watch that groundwork being laid and i think about that when im buying for the store, you know, like what what book white might we be thinking about in five years, whatever the timeline is. Yeah. So for to jump straight to that question for everyone are john and diesha. Do you have examples of books that are emblematic of University Press books . And then about implement, but i do have two favorites that i wanted to mention that people may not even know were university, press well, everybody this audience probably knows um, but my friend honorary finone jeffers whose book is oprahs book pick now and her novel is and its a shortlisted or its a finalists. It was a finalist for the carcass prize. Her prior book was a collection of poetry last year the age of phyllis which was long listed for the National Book award and it was published by wesleyan University Press and then another fellow mba finalists for nonfiction was gerald walkers how to make a slave and that was an imprint. I think its called mad creek, which is an imprint of ohio university, ohio state universitys press and so those were books that you know last year when people would write stories say you know there are these three books that are you know University Pressbooks and and i dont know that people knew that about those wonderful wonderful one is a collection of poems and is one a collection of essays. Im gonna be less generous than dean and talk about one of one of my own books, but we published a book three years ago now called race for profit by kiyanka Yamada Taylor who is at princeton. So this book this is a revised dissertation. So let me start there. This is a revised dissertation 10 years later more research. This is a densely research book. It is not, you know beach reading but it is a vital book. This is a book. That was a finalist or a long list for the National Book award a finalists for the pulitzer. She got a writing gig at the new yorker. She won a macarthur i mean, this is a woman whos whose time has come but the publication of the book was this kind of singular moment. I when i was at basic, im not sure we would have taken on a book like this because it felt you know, it had these kind of these elements to its origins that kind of make commercial publishers like, you know, its got lots of research and its a revised dissertation and so you know at an end up being a windfall for us as well. Although. We we knew she was going to be successful, but we didnt know it was going to be like that. So its just its just a very satisfying moment to have Something Like that where it fits in with the core of what were trying to do as a scholarly publisher, but has these moments of Public Engagement and impact and then, you know catapults somebodys career into a place where none of us could have imagined, you know, before we published it. And allows them to be then be swept up by a commercial publishers as taylor probably had a number of titles, you know widely published and then, you know accessible all across the country. It sounds like among the three of the picks for the three of you each has the common trait of taking a risk whether its on a new writer or a type of argument or methodology that a commercial publisher might not be ready to commit to for in their financial models you noted john and i think thats such a strong trait of ups. Is that risk taking putting the time and effort into developing these these works to share them with the wider audience. Yeah, i mean the truth is i think almost every book we sign is more likely than not to lose money and potentially even lose significant money. And so which isnt to say that we are a cavalier about it, but were not going into it with this sense of like every book has to generate a certain contribution to the you know, the margin of the organization. So once you once you stipulate that were doing this for a sense of mission, then you you make choices a little bit differently and and you know, were talking about the Success Stories and i have you know scores of books that did not get nominated for the pulitzer prize, but but but once you kind of take that sense of like every book has to make a certain amount of money it just kind of changes the way that you think about things and then every once while you kind of do everything right and you have a Success Story like the ones talking about today. And i would add to that as well. You know, i think the store is alina certainly for you at the the sem coop and stores that i think that like ours and city lights and you know various others across the country that have that feel more Mission Driven, and i think we understand that as well when were bringing in books like these books and independent pressbooks that that you know, some books will earn their keep and beyond and they can help support, you know, theres an ecosystem here where you know, were okay to leave that shelf space, you know that book there for years, even you know, if we think that we believe in it and so that kind of trickles down that sense of mission and the long view trickles down to to us as well. Yeah, i completely agree in terms of how we decide what to keep on our shelves and what we decide to bring in and how long it stays that that sense of risk taking. Is present in the book selling side as well, but i want to ask about the risk taking on the on the writers side. Disha, the you talked about finding a community to support your book a place where there could be diverse set of authors is would you im trying to figure out how to phrase the question but would you ever try to write for a different audience based on where youre publishing the book, you know like, how is that how is that the actual publication the production of the book . How does that affect your writing process if at all . Well, you know with this book when i started writing the stories, i wasnt even thinking. I was writing a collection and i really had no expectation on the publishing end of of things. My first book was actually a Nonfiction Book on coparenting that i coauthored with my exhusband and that book was traditionally published. And so when i was working on the stories and then even once i knew i was working on a collection i thought you know, and everybody will tell you a publishing short story collections dont sell so i mean the bar was like of my expectations. Okay, you know really low that i may not find anyone that wants to to publish this book but one of the things that was really important to me is like if i do get a book deal if i do get the opportunity to have this book traditionally published like the first book. I hope its a publisher thats willing to invest in promoting the book because you can write edible book and it can be great but you really need help finding that audience. Sometimes through the the marketing and promotion, so i didnt think about that when i was writing the stories because i felt like it was out of my hands, you know, i was just, you know, kind of hoping for the best but you know again the experience with wvu was completely different from my Prior Experience there were times when i didnt even think the editors at the other publisher for the not the coparently book was like did we her off . I dont know. She just you know, were happy about it. Whereas everything with you know from the time of getting the book deal to the editorial process. It was all as the word you use very collaborative. I felt like everybody on the team and thats what it was. It was really a team. We were all singularly minded about giving this book the best chance for success and that included also part of our team. The Publicity Team the publicist Jeremy Wang Iverson at vestal pr and i was i thought thats exciting because i remember with the coparenting book. Like, how are we going to publish this book . Because they had like one person. Theyre like, heres a list of mom bloggers that was publishing i mean the publicity so just knowing that there was so much thought given there was actually a plan in place and that i was part of those conversations that just meant so much to me. So now as i look ahead and thinking about, you know, im trying to do the same thing, which is as i write. I try not to think about that side of it. This experience has given me sort of the trust that if you just do your work as writers, i think we have to just do our work and focus on telling the best stories that we can and then if were lucky we can find Publishing Partners that really believe in what weve done. So i guess my well my short answer is no i try not to think about it, but im hopeful so it it sounds like the the traits or the things that made this such a collaborative compelling and satisfying experience were made possible because the entire manuscript was approached differently and that may connect back to just the structure of a up the what what where theyre able to put their resources where theyre able to allocate their time and that just might not be possible in nonup settings and obviously they have a Business Model too, but i never felt like i was in a machine, right . You know, i think thats a big part of like this whole 90 day thing. I didnt i didnt know anything about that. You know, i i still talk to derek probably at least once a week, maybe every other week, you know, were still in touch. The book came out september 1st of last year. So if theres some 90day thing, i dont know anything about it, so um, i want to turn the question or the questions now to the idea of the evolution of University Presses because this is the 10th anniversary as im sure were all celebrating here, you know with you know champagne for the 10th anniversary of university, press week and the theme is keeping up and so like what how have youps changed over the past 10 years. How do we predict them to change over the next 10 to 60 or whatever and that might be addressing strengths or im sorry addressing challenges changes to address challenges or changes to really stride forward not in the face of challenge, but in the face of like hope and innovation im happy to take the first step at that as the the closest representative. Youve got to a up here. So a you you kindly you sent this question to us a few days ago and ive reflected on it and i its interesting. I was going to turn the question in on itself, which is like like its actually the the continuity of what presses do that is fascinating to me when i got to you i got to unc in 2012, and i remember when they hired me theyre like you have to figure out the digital strategy. I was like, okay and and whats interesting to seeing the endurance of the print format and and so like i look at whats happening in the trade world and weve got you know you reference this the consolidation thats happening or not happening at the doj steps in and just it feels like the trade world is just like, you know, the tectonic plates are like moving in real time, and its astonishing to me the durability that University Presses have done and experience that dies. About and the feelings that steven has about like it feels its like remarkably and very kind of satisfyingly like familiar and it doesnt you know it i i catch myself using rhetoric of disruption and innovation as much as anybody else. But but one of the things thats really satisfying is is like were still doing this kind of like oldfashioned thing in very and partially an oldfashioned ways and it works. I mean like its i think there was a University Press book on the National Book award long list or shortlist like each of the last fight four or five or six years. I mean, its it feels like in some ways as the rest of the marketplace feels so erratic and unpredictable that theres something kind of satisfying about it. And you know, i look at the catalogs that come in. I feel like i mean, look, its hard like were all struggling. Were all underwater financially. Weve all like look over our shoulders constantly, but when you look at the output, it feels like its kind of a renaissance of like university, press theyre doing thats a great answer to like, how are we innovating and were doing all the right things from ebooks and audiobooks and marketing directly and all those sorts of things. But at the end of the day like i just feel like were this reliable source of like fascinating books and that thats kind of more vital than it was even you know, 10 years ago. Yeah. I could i can second that i love this idea of sort of radical continuity. This feels to me as a book seller especially especially so much changes around us and you know, and and i thought i you know, i gave this question some thought to and i think theres actually been a kind of renewed and refreshed interest on both sides of the book selling up from that that some of us are rediscovering each other, you know, some of the better University Presses have kind of reinvigorated their trade list in ways that i find really great and you know, and this whole idea the dishes is talking about is the community and the team like that goes in so many directions in our registry. Its for us its people who come into the store, but its all so you the author of a book and the publisher of a book and so i think that renewed sense of community and this idea this this kind of strong continuity. It has been really key for us in a lot of ways and you know, stuff economics are hard. We lose sales reps. We certainly have less sales reps now than we did 10 years ago, but i think the sales reps that we have and the ways that were approaching it are are kind of new and was with fresh expectations and eyes, you know, john as you said these books that like dishes book that are getting into the public eye more are reminding all of us of the great work that a lot of these presses are doing when i was on the National Book Award Committee for poetry a few years ago some of the most not somebody the most interesting books were independent and University Press books. Those are the book me the bell like they were really capturing what was happening on the ground in a way that a lot of the trade. I mean the, you know, the bigger publishing didnt and so to me that kind of opened my eyes and another way even as someone who had been buying University Pressbooks for green apple, you know, 15 years ago like that is exciting to me and this and this is longview and this kind of i dont want to say plotting because its not plotting but its you know, were things seems to be changing, but there is something very reassuring about a commitment to this kind of work. Patient not plotting thank you. Disha, did you have anything i notes about either the patience of a University Press or the swift innovation of the university, press over the last 10 years, so i cant speak to the innovation because im you know a up newbie. I will coin that but definitely the patients i didnt feel rushed at all and i have an agent who says you know books are born when theyre ready like kids, you know, they come when theyre ready. Um, and thats just something else. Im thankful for that. You know, the editing process was meticulous and i felt like the unspoken between everybody on the team from editorial to marketing was you know, this book will go out when its ready. And so we, you know did the different rounds and there was such a tension to detail that you know that you lose that if there isnt that that patients and you know, and i dont mean things like, you know those but like really having an author come away from the experience feeling proud that you know, thats the book that they have in the world, you know, and i know so many people want to get published quickly and they want to get published by, you know, a particular kind of Publishing House and im like youre gonna live with this book the rest of your life and for at least a year, youve got a market its you better love it. And so, you know the what i you know, fortunately have as a team that loved it as much as i did and you know from from start to finish and and that that does take time and even when youre on a you know, i would call it say an aggressive timeline. Theres still a difference between you can move quickly but still be thoughtful and patient right and i think thats a nuance that you know that we struck because there was a year between when i turned in my manuscript and when the book came out, so thats pretty aggressive i think but i never felt rushed. Yeah, i dont think any of the four of us are in offices that operate with a rush with much rush or would be in very only very particular spaces. Where the rushes. Truly felt so with that in mind what . We know what universities do well the radical continuity as established in this panel, but what are the what are the present challenges in the face of that radical continuity . What pushes against the radical continuity and wants us to be different . And that might be anything from the distribution john you spoke about the consolidation of various publishers steven. I know youve spoken about what what consolidation does to the for the bookseller. What what are the challenges out there . Yeah, theres no doubt that the reason penguin randy house wants to buy Simon Schusters because they just want more scale. I mean theyre scale is so vital to you know, making a profit in publishing and they just these publishers cant they just cant be big enough. They realize every time they get bigger. They they make more money. And so this is why theyre kind of insatiable and acquiring each other, you know university suppresses cant ever kind of get into that game. Although i think theres been a lot of innovation kind of in the backend plumbing of distribution and things like that things that arent really that much fun to talk about on panels, but like a really important i i think for me the challenge and weve already kind of touched on this is is on like literally on finding shelf space and so, you know, theres been i would say the last 10 years. Theres probably been like kind of like a mini resurgence of independent stores, but a lot of them are really small and they really focus a lot on contemporary fiction and memoir and they just you know, thats kind of their bread and butter and you know the idea of having, you know an economic section. Its like not not plausible for a lot of these stores and so for me the challenge is you know, we have a type of book that we publish that i think helps make a great backless section and in some of your nonfiction categories, were not going to be we dont really intend to compete for the front tables, you know, all that off and all the great stores, you know, find a way to put our books there. So but, you know, we can really help make your backlist better, but the the whole you know the payments system, you know, like we kind of ive sometimes used the word consignment and i usually get kicked out of a meeting when that happens like like its possible that we need a very different type of model. All for bookstores to display our books because i mean stevens right like it can take a year to sell a University Press book and and thats like not thats neither a surprise nor, you know a disappointment. Its like its just it sometimes it takes but like like someones gonna buy like these are very wellintentioned books smartly published. And so that to me thats the challenge is is how do we get more stores willing to you know, what is the incentive that of University Press needs to give a store they give them what they need to do to be able to hold on to book long enough for the right customer to find it. I would love to talk about consignment john. Yeah, i would not pick you out of the store for offering your books on consignment. You know to kind of follow to piggyback on that. I would say that that education, you know, there are a number of new books stores, and they and many of them are small and and nimble in a way, you know like this story, you know, i went from green apple which at that point was three store friends and it has not even gotten even bigger store. Thats 1200 square feet, you know, and we are backless heavy maybe 12,000 titles in the store, but you know, and i my initial hesitation was like i used to buy for, you know, twenty thousand square feet and now im buying for 12 100 and its sort of like, okay like, oh we just find the best books, but i think you know because i had this education previously and i think educating newer book sellers, you know, whether we have a trade as association and i think you know, there are economic, you know investments that would need to be made and thats tough, you know for our trade trade shows or you know, gatherings and things but i think like this kind of panel could go a long way for booksellers to kind of understand the economics of that and the value of that for a community that it isnt just about the quick turn. Its about a longer deeper investment with ideas and you know and your and your community however defined right . So why . Im gonna turn to a much larger question, which is why do University Press books matter at all . Like why i venture to say that were all can we all would like University Presses to remain sustainable and you know, perhaps even to flourish in the future. So why is why is that worth . Thinking about i think we touched on it, which is this idea that theyre the risk taking and you know for writers, you know, its sort of drilled into us that if anybody wants to publish us, theyre taking a risk, you know, theyre probably going to lose money there, you know, all these things. We know were risky, you know and goodness if you write short stories, you know, thats risky if youre writing anything thats experimental. Thats risky if youre touching certain stories if youre too scholarly, you know, so i think that University Presses willingness to take on sort of the problem children maybe keeps writing innovative and it rewards authors taking risks and authors sort of marching to the beat of their own drum. I think that you know, thats significant you ask the question earlier elena about does that, you know influence how we write and i know for some people you know there is that fear like i want to write this, but im worried that its not commercially viable, you know, and it can hinder you and so if we want writers to write, you know, unencumbered knowing that you can get your work published you can take those risks and somebodys going to be willing to take a chance on you it gets people doing their best work, i think. Yeah, and couldnt agree with that more deisha and i think you know, i often think it turns of an ecosystem right like you need as many flourishing. Components sun ecosystem and University Presses provide that in a sort of a counterbalance way, you know almost at the ground level, you know as the bigger players are you know higher up but you need all of these components and that risk is key to that i think i think you can also make the argument that. You know, were kind of looking at this from the authors perspective perspective because they have decent here but like i, you know having worked in bookstore, i think a lot about the readers and on the one hand like the because the barriers to publishing and selfpublishing have come down dramatically in the last 10 years. Like its really not that hard to like make you know something that looks like like a book like i think of it in terms of the the commitment of time that are reader takes and you know, i i always tell a joke that you know in my experience in working at olsons for 10 years, like nobody ever ever walked into store and said like whats new from Simon Schuster right . Like they dont think about who the publishers like and we dont want them to but ive started suggesting to to readers and consumers like take a look at whats on the spine the book because theres a lot of things that you will not get those 15 hours of your life back. But if you look at it and it says its a university, press on the spine you it really feels like a money back guarantee to me that its gonna be worth it. And so this idea of you know, were competing for peoples time and and you know, what are the what are the signals that you can send to a reader about like like this is going to be worth your time and it may be, you know, something, you know as were kind of all suggesting that maybe feel a little unpredictable and surprising and thats kind of what we all want sometimes and so i do think this this notion of its a its a proxy. Its a its a signal of of this will this will have value to you if you if you commodify your time which most of us do way or another i want to just pause to open up the chat to any questions before we had i get too much further down on my list of questions if anyone from the audience has questions were all happy to to take them. So please share them there, but steven going off of what john just said. Im wondering how you would approach like, i think its true that for the most part people when people pick up a book in a bookstore. Theyre not thinking great. I you know first check the publisher before checking the title or the table of contents and its kind of an afterthought for a lot of readers and thats fine. But how do you as a bookseller approach, you know placing a trade book and a up book in your store whether the cut we think the customer is going to Pay Attention to the difference or not. How do you approach the two . Well as far as bringing in, you know a train book, its kind of written. Its right there for you. Right all the info you need is there i think with the University Press book like i think in terms of is this a fresh approach to an old issue or is this bringing in you know, is this synthesizing something in an interesting way or brand, you know breaking new ground and for us, you know, i love sort of that. The conversations these books have next to each other on the shelf, you know ones that you have Something Like the book. I previously mentioned the mushroom at the end of the world sitting next to entangled life in a big trade book and you see you have these kind of conversations and you know one references the other, you know part of part of that and so i kind of think you know, how in which way do these books talk and and which which way are they approaching, you know a serious scholarly topic or having fun in a deeper way or doing, you know less immediately commercially successful things like short fiction from university, press you know, what are the new voices like is this a voice that i want to hear because i do agree i think. You know the whatever generic, you know kind of universal customer who doesnt actually exist, but you know, they come in and i think theyre theyre struck by the ideas and those conversations and in a physical space and so like thinking about how how everything talks is really important for the way that we bring books in. And you know University Presses elevate the conversation and a lot of the ways some of the trade books that you have to sell either converting me the commercial hits even in a store that you know, were pretty literary fiction heavy even then youre gonna have those books set that you dont care about or even necessarily want to see so much but you know, i like to elevate it gives me a sense of better mission and you know, you feel less icky sometimes to have these important books in the store. Thank you for that as a detour or john anything to add in terms of i know thats a you know bookseller specific question, but just thinking about on the readers side whos picking up these books and why whether theyd be intrigued or turned off by you know, the emblem of the University Press on the on the spine. Now i you know i did i remember a couple of people readers saying that you know, they were surprised because they thought University Presses only published scholarly or academic books. So i think that you know, thats been a plus for you know my book. Its introducing people to the idea of how broadly you know University Presses published. So, you know, i did have a couple of people kind of zero in on that right away that you know when they saw that they werent quite sure what was going on. So im just latching on to the we make booksellers. Feel less icky comment that stephen made im gonna were gonna integrate that into some of our tip sheets or something some sort of pitch. I think there are a lot of dias you kind of point to a lot of assumptions about what a up does and who and who its for and i think one of the most surprising things is that for some readers is the accessibility of up books, but to me that seems like a challenge that kind that might need to be faced in the future, you to is it is it worth anyones time to try to convince people outside the industry of what ups are or is it heads down and keep doing what you all do so well and you know readers will come to you is there you know, should you be out there fighting or just quietly working . Yeah for me. Its a real challenge because you know, we have this kind of portfolio approach to publishing where were doing Different Things for different people so we can publish, you know, very specialized monographs in indigenous studies and then we can publish a cookbook and then we can publish, you know, a civil war biography and so its hard to its hard and for an individual reader to kind of have coherence, i do think when you think theres been one of the themes today that you know, University President s are trying to find those spaces that are kind of under underutilized and under under you know, these pathways that that that authors and readers have have a hard time accessing. I mean that the, you know, theres the kind of the founding story of unc press. It was first university, press in the south 1922. There was no secular publishing in the south so like so we you know, we kind of think about that all the time like like theyre needed to be publishing happening in the south and and so you know, so were just were doing different versions of that all the time. So even when we publish a cookbook, were not, you know, im not trying to compete with Clarkson Potter. I cant compete and clarkson pod, but were trying to find people whose voices are not being particularly. Well represented by commercial publishing or theyre saying something about the region that maybe we can uniquely amplify. So theres always sort of that that angle to it and that thats consistent whether its a monograph and a you know in a humanities field or whether its a you know, a trade book for a trade yeah, i really like the the point youre making about not not trying to compete with someone like Clarkson Potter whos a massive and you know, great cookbook publisher, but finding a way that youre doing. I mean, its a niche youre doing Something Different. You have the potential to do Something Different and its not about either or but its about finding a way maybe where theres space for Something Like a up to flourish and that does not mean Clarkson Potter has to fold up shop, but that the two can you know steven i think he used the word ecosystem before the there can be a complex ecosystem of publishers. Anyone else on kind of the niches of university what University Presses can do to fill niches or craft carve their own niches . Now ive got other questions. Well, yeah, i would reiterate with johns i think you know, theyre then that comes back to me is as a book seller, you know and educating other booksellers as well as to kind of find. You know, what . X University Press does. Well, you know what . Theyre if they have a particular focus that works for us. You know that that is key and you know and filling those spaces. And then also, you know and more broadly and kind of the trade books that are published by University Presses. You know, there are you know you i can you can i mean, i mean, im sure you can too you can think of immediately think of you know what i you know. University of North Carolina, press does well, West Virginia university. Press does. Well, princeton, whatever and you know, and to Pay Attention to those books matter, you know in that larger view. Yeah. And i think lets see. I had i got i had a great question and then i forgot it should have written it down. Um, but oh right this was it was for you john it was going back to the question of a Business Model and also the question of you know, what challenges ups face in the next few years the next, you know century. Like what . What challenges does the current model for University Presses in . What way is it . Not yet. Flexible enough or might be failing the mission of certain failing them like failing the mission of certain ups. Im thinking about kind of the hubbub with stanford. Within the last few years where all the sudden the monetary side of it didnt match with the Mission Driven side of a up. So without you know, you dont need to speak specifically about stanford. But what are the challenges you see there . Yeah, no, its you know, its kind of the elephant the room. We dont like to talk about such things. But, you know, most University Presses rely on this kind of financial or some sort of inkind nest from their Host University to be supportive and and want the press to succeed and do things, you know, we exist to do things that commercial presses cant do so its probably going to cost money to do those things because if you could make money than a commercial press would have done it and i think you know the the environment on University Campuses is super tough these days theyre you know, all the people who have the checkbooks use this kind of rhetoric of every dollar has to be spent accountably and like, you know, how do you how do you know in how do you quantify impact in humanities publishing for somebody who is looking at you know the phrase in North Carolina sometimes has been used like in seats for you know classes or jobs. So, you know the whole kind of increasing focus on vocationalization of campuses and really kind of a disparaging the humanities are these are real challenges and i you know, im sitting here on the Campus University of North Carolina chapel hill, which the pretty progressive place and has you know, weve benefited from from good support, but you know, even im looking over my shoulder all the time just to make sure that the support that we get is is continuing and you know it were not its not in our dna to kind of be lobbyists for ourselves. Like we you know, we hopefully we produce 110 new books a year that the people who give out money can look at and say like hey this says this is something really positive about what youre doing. These books get distributed globally are books get reviewed and major publications and it always is university of North Carolina when it doesnt like that has value and so how do we quantify that . So i just worry that that pressure is going to get harder, you know. For whatever gets better if it ever gets better. It could just viewer in this kind of like asymptotic like decline of you know, provost provostial enthusiasm for for process. So its a real its a real problem and i appreciate youre raising it. Wish i had a great answer for you. Yeah, i was looking for a solution from this panel, but no, thank you for that. I appreciate you addressing the addressing the issue with candor to turn though to perhaps the things we know and can be hopeful about for ups. Im interested in what up books. Youre each looking forward to reading in the next few months. Well, oh no, please go ahead. I was gonna shout out. Um a press mate a West Virginia university, press made of mine devon loeb who his memoir the inbetweens is coming out next year. So im excited about that one. Create taking note and taking notes here. Yes. Thank you. Ill mention your coworker. Jeff deutsches book coming out next spring and praise of good book stores when im excited to to dig into you know, and as you know as a bookseller we have i think behind me is like some of the other University Pressbooks that im excited to get to you know, if only i had the time but but jeffs book is on on the top of the list. I once that book hits the world. Its gonna i cant wait. Its just gonna be fantastic. So thanks for calling that. I am i have had a dream for 30 years to try to go to new zealand and i had a ticket in my hand for march of 2020 and needless to say i did not make it. So in the meantime, ive been reading about new zealand and otago university, press in the beautiful little town of dunedin new zealand is publishing a book called across the past and its a collection of they call it tramping hiking stories. So its kind of traveled narrative about just kind of wandering around new zealand. Its kind of like if c ball just kind of like wandered new zealand instead of you know, sussex. So really looking forward to that. Excellent. I dont think ive ever read anything from ortega University Press so. Nows my chance. Does anyone either any of you three or anyone in the chat have final questions or comments to end on . There was a question for me from john. Oh and john was asking sort of about you know, how i connected with West Virginia University Press and i think this is where the where you know presses that are regional it matters because before my manuscript was completed my agent met with their kristoff, who is the head of the press and so she kind of teased my collection to him at that time and thats what sparked his initial interest and i think the other part of johns question was, you know was their proposal and so forth. Yes, so i am representative by an agent my i did not have a completed manuscript to submit. I submitted a partial manuscript and my deal with West Virginia University Press was based on that partial manuscript, and i think the other part of johns question was did i have a background in short fiction . And again, this is University Presses taking a chance. My previous book was nonfiction. I published i think my first short story was published in 2008, but i had been quote unquote busy working on a novel that wasnt going anywhere, but also writing a lot of nonfiction and also just writing for pay just to survive and so fiction was this thing i was going to get back to eventually and so, you know the stories in the collection were written over a period of about, you know, five years from the oldest story to the the most current one in the collection. And so again, i was somebody without a background in fiction writing. I mean obviously had published fiction before three of the stories in the collection have been published at the time. My proposal was submitted. I also dont have any writing related degrees. I do not have an mfa. So again the risk taking and i really appreciate you know, just that whole wvup team. Thank you for that and thank you for for catching that question and john. Thank for that question. John and stephen any further notes on radical continuity and risktaking . Or innovation even its just a font of like hashtags. Ive been writing them down. I just want to thank i want to thank deisha. Were in the were in the the presence of greatness here. Your book is so fantastic and it just i i wish i could go back to be a book seller so i could just sell the hell out of it because it just it just it reminds me of books that i used a hand sell and really loved it and were really were lucky to be in your presence and the fact that youve taking the time to help spread the word about University Presses like an incredibly generous thing that youre doing. And so thank you for that. Oh, thank you, and youre welcome. Yeah, i would reiterate that as well. And as a bookseller over the last, you know year, theres been a challenging year for a lot of us having a book. Like dishas book in the store to kind of press into peoples hands. Thats one of the great rewards of of doing this work and and yeah and having someone whos so willing to be an ambassador for this and kind of talking about all of the great things the University Presses do and you know, theyre in our communities. Theyre our neighbors. Thats how you meet people and you know a book like this seems like it was kind of born in that way. And so yeah. Thank you deisha and congratulations. I cant wait for whats next. Thank you. Thanks so much. And thank you to all three of youve been so generous with your time and your thoughts of really appreciate it. You made this a fantastic panel, so thank you. Thank you and carrie for setting this up right . Thank you carry. Thank you all thank you alina. Thanks stacia, steven and john youve been a really fantastic conversation and youve captured so much of what has made us all proud to be a part of the university, press world. Thanks everybody for joining us today, and we hope youll continue to share on the up Week Celebration in the days ahead. All right. Haver in the near future on the tv. Brings many years of Public Education and experience to the smithsonian before joining us in june she served as Vice President for education policy and Strategic Initiatives at the American Institute for research. So now please join me in welcoming