Transcripts For CSPAN3 The Civil War Civil War Manpower And Horsepower 20221006

Name is paul quigly, i am the director of the Virginia Center to civil war studies. It was one of my jobs to split these nine talks into three different sections, one for each week. They seem, the sub theme i came up with for this weeks man power and horse power, which sounds kind of weird but was the best way i could come up with two separate these topics out. You are going to hear three really excellent talks on that theme tonight. Each speaker is going to speak for about 15 minutes. So, fairly short presentations. That is going to leave us plenty of time for questions and discussion at the end. You can type your questions into the question and answer box anytime throughout the evening. And we will respond to those later, after all three talks have taken place. So, we are looking forward to hearing your questions and feedback very much, that is the excitement for us going into this evening. Our first speaker tonight is going to be dr. Caroline newhall, she is very well known around here because she works as the post doctoral fellow at the Virginia Center for civil war studies here at Virginia Tech, before that she got her ph. D. At unc chapel hill, she is working on a book about black p. O. W. Experiences in the confederacy, she gave a terrific talk on that topic soon after she arrived in blacksburg. Which now available at the Youtube Channel for the Virginia Center for civil war studies, and is also on the cspan website that was broadcast on cspan 3 shortly after she delivered it. Tonight, her on topic is interest convergence in the recruiting a black soldiers. Thank, you doctor newhall. Thank you so much, paul, i want to say thank you so much to leland and caroline from the continuing professional education center. Thank you so much, i will jump right into it, do not have too much time, cutting into the other panelists. My Research Really centers on how illegal conditions created warfare. Created circumstances which may not have been previously available to them. Primarily through looking at black prisoners of war, soldiers who were captured by the confederacy. So i am looking at the interest convergence and how recruitment around black americans, particularly in the south, black men in particular, led to this initially positive results, such as emancipation. But, had some significant limitations when it came to achieving equality. But, when im going to talk about this center on how black americans were able to find Common Ground with the United States. And took advantage that, made the United States made them part way in the massive civil rights game. The confederacy failed to do this. If the confederacy had made efforts to the degree that the United States had, it may have been a different story. Centering on how black americans in the south, especially, formerly enslaved people managed to use the war to affect their freedom, essentially. So, i will share my screen now. Apologies for this whole set up. There we go. Interest convergence, the u. S. Effort to recruit black soldiers. I want to open up on whats interest convergent is. Interest convergence is a particular topic that comes through in Critical Race Theory, which has come out of this idea of legal racism, legal scholars, historians, numerous people have undertaken this work led by professor derek bell in trying to understand how racism and the law coincide in the United States. And, the way in which the law can achieve certain things, but also runs into limitations when it comes to affecting the quality. And, achieving ideals versus what happens in reality. So, when im talking about interest convergence, im using it in a specific context that may not be as familiar to people who might know about interest convergence in Critical Race Theory. Essentially, the idea behind interest convergence is that there are times where civil rights gains for communities of color coincide with the dictates of white self interest. Meaning that the ruling class, the ruling powers, those who passed laws, are a part of the legislature, the executive which historically in the United States has been predominantly white people. How people of color have managed to intersect with the interests of the ruling class, essentially, to make some gains. But, also, how those gains have particular limitations. And, they way in which professor bell has talked about this, and many other scholars as well, is looking forward. They are looking to the future of the law. And how we can apply equality more effectively, and attract a majority interest. Making interest convergence not a dual application, where it starts with a positive, and ends with limitations that hinder civil rights gains. Setting a path for understanding that the law has ideals. Those ideals have to be made real by people. The laws created by people, its enforced by people, it is violated by people. So, humans make law, these are ways in which we can make the law more equitable. It is a very general overview of Critical Race Theory and interest convergence. The way im going to look at it, looking backwards. Using references as professor bell has used with brown versus board of education for example. And bring it back to the 19th century. Read it into the past and understand not just how white interests, particularly surrounding the emancipation proclamation as war measure, all how black americans also managed to affect their own self interests. Even though these are limited gains, the actions that black americans were able to undertake in order to create a space for themselves as citizens through the civil war. How war created these conditions that black americans could take advantage of. To work on emancipation. And then towards equality. Without further ado, i will jump into this discussion of the emancipation proclamation. Basically, this is where it starts. Were looking at the interest convergence between the United States as a political entity and black americans as a group and individuals. The emancipation proclamation is such a fascinating cage. I go on for hours about it. It has these achievements where president lincoln is putting his finger on the pulse of the war. What is acceptable. What he can do to make the war effort to preserve the union successfully. That is always his main consideration. So, the emancipation proclamation has a significant limitations as does the military the militia acts, the confiscation acts of 1862 and 1861. The steps are taken haltingly, enabling black americans to join the union army. Versus laborers, and then our soldiers. President lincolns looking toward the entire war effort. For his idea of interest convergence, hes trying to keep the border states, slave state within the union still within the union. Without losing them to the confederacy. He has to walk a fine line when it comes to slavery. For the most, parties interested in the preservation of the union. Emancipation becomes a war strategy and goal once becomes apparent that that is a way of hindering the confederacy from within. Confederacy had long the slave states within the south had long been concerned with the idea of the internal enemy that are black americans. They want emancipation, they want equality. They might resort to violence in order to achieve that. It is the ruling logic behind these slave codes and maintaining control, maintaining superiority and continuing their interests. It is when the interests of black americans, particularly in the south, coincide with the union that emancipation becomes possible. There are limitations. There is still lower pay for black soldiers. The limited application to the areas for emancipation, particular areas, such as surrounding new orleans are exempt from the emancipation block limitation. The areas that are not occupy the unit any degree, the consent federally itself has the emancipation proclamation applied to it. This idea that it is possible for you to leave your station as an enslaved person and joined the union army, either as a labor or as a soldier. This is revolutionary for quite a few reasons. The confederacy bucks against this. The confederacy sees the opening the door to emancipation as opening the door to quality. Even though various people recognize that its possible to limit the goals of emancipation by limiting equality through the law. The cornerstone of the confederacy is centered on white supremacy, centered on maintaining absolute control over the enslaved population. There is very little room for considering the possibilities of allowing enslaved people to become fighters. Theres a lot of fear surrounding it. The concern that if we open the door to emancipation, we open the door to equality. Which completely undercuts the cornerstone of the confederacy as stated by Vice President alexander stevens. The emancipation proclamation kicks off this process of recruitment. It starts in the north, and starts with free black americans. These efforts are ad hoc. They are basically affected by individuals and by interested governors such as john a andrew of massachusetts, pictured here. As well as philanthropists and businessmen such as wall who are pushing the United States government to centralize this process and to enable the recruitment not just of free black americans but all black americans. Recognizing that striking a blow at slavery will strike a blow at the confederacy itself from within. Looking into these historical processes where foreign enemies such as the british for example had taken advantage of the tension between enslaved people and enslavers in the american revolution, in the war of 1812. The u. S. Is looking to these precedents and trying to apply them. As are these particular military commanders and war governors like john andrew. Particularly, some abolitionists minded commanders like colonel william bernie, it becomes really important in this process. As well as general Lorenzo Thomas who alone helps instigate 41 of all of the black recruits who end up joining the United States color troops. The u. S. Recognizes that there are ways of coordinating with the black population to help its war efforts. Its only ever a war measure. The emancipation proclamation is not affected through federal law. It is not codified through the legislature. It is an executive action as commanderinchief by lincoln to use essentially the enslaved population against the confederacy from within. This is the way in which the u. S. Is casting this as a legally viable option for enabling emancipation. Its not striking at the border states within the union, its only effecting the confederacy. It is only a war measure. The confederacy on the other hand is very reluctant to this. By the time they start to attempt to recruit black soldiers from the enslaved population, it is very much too late. Major general patrick clyburn is the first major commander to suggest this move. He states that to open up the ranks to enslaved people would not necessarily result in emancipation. Excuse me, in equality. Emancipation was not necessarily a step to equality. It would at least help the confederacy as a war gain. Hes pushing for this. It is relatively late. He says, you know, through necessity and wides legislation this would ensure no material change. He is very much not supported in this initially. [laughs] it takes until general robert e. Lee starts advocating for it around february 1865, january 1865. Very late in the war. Any attempts are made to use enslaved people a soldiers. Up to this point, enslavers have been thinking about man power for black soldiers and black people solely through labor. They are impressing free black man, they are impressing enslaved black man. But only to work on foreign fortifications. Only to work on the capacity that has been according to them, property to be used at the will of enslavers first and the state second. On the other hand the United States and black men are looking at man power not just as means of labor and fighting power, but power as men. The presence in the Armed Services of the nation affords legitimate sea and citizenship which has not been positive majority of black americans at this point. The idea man power is twofold for black americans. I think its very appropriate theater tonight. Black americans in the midst of all of this, the confederacys, refusing to use the 4 million, about 4 million military aged enslaved black man within the confederacy for those purposes. For military efforts. Black americans are basically acting out of their own self interest wherever opportunities are possible, they have a variety of means in which to do this. This is very much apparent by the initial acts of self emancipation that are starting well before the war. And continue throughout the early period. People like robert smalls, henry jarvis, escaping to union lines, forcing the union to deal with the reality of their willingness to support the unions cause. So, that self interest basically ends up working out in the long run, at least during the war. It takes a while for the shift to happen where efforts become centralized to enlist free and enslaved black man in the slave states especially. These efforts are made possible first by recruiting officers, they are limited to the vicinities of occupied territory. And then the actions of enslaved men themselves. This is a good show, i think, of how the process was made possible. We will give you a couple of examples of men who are able to take advantage of the u. S. Coming in to confederate lines. I will try to wrap up. I know im running out of time. Basically, we have men like abram brawls who could not escape from his situation he was located around here between Central Alabama and a july 18 64. The union has started to encroach on this territory. Knowing that the union is present in georgia, he is able to take advantage of the presence of the union in order to escape. He has to escape. He cannot do so voluntarily. His enslaver will not let him to do it voluntarily. He is navigating from the nighttime, over 40 miles of terrain. He gets to dalton, georgia, yes, dalton, georgia. And then has to work there until hes finally signed up for the 44th United States colored infantry. We have examples like the fraction brothers, they are from blacksburg right here in montgomery county, they werent able to affect their escape until 1865 in april after the assassination of lincoln. They are situated around here. This encroachment of the army enables easier pass for people to make their way to union lines and sign up. They are still encountering these issues where they can either fight, flight, or freeze, as i would like to say. We see examples of this that Work Together as well. Fight, flight, freeze in many combinations. You can flee, but then you have to wait patiently to sign up depending on the situation available to. The louisiana native guards for example who transformed into the corps dafrique, the presence of black men who are using soldiering by any means possible, whether its with the confederacy or the union, to affect emancipation is incredibly important. To wrap up, i know a running of time. I just want to say that i think these movements are super interesting. It shows the complexity of how interest convergence works. We have these large scale considerations with warfare that people like president lincoln have to keep in mind. If they focus on black emancipation too early, they lose the border states. Which are, you know, filled with landholders. That would shift the war in a direction that the union would not necessarily be able to fight against effectively. Losing more states is a major, major concern for lincoln. He is not acting in the interests of black americans. He feels he has to act and certain different interests for the war effort. Black americans are taking these grassroots movements, theyre speaking with their feet, later with uniforms and guns can take freedom where they can. They cant always do it as soon as available to them, they sometimes have to wait. They keep in mind considerations like their family safety, and where to go, where to stay. They have to wait for information. All in all, this consideration of how the confederates essentially failed to make use and enable emancipation as a means of persisting through the war effort helps lead to the failure of the confederacy. Whereas the United States was able to coincide interest with black americans. Black americans are acting in their own selfinterest throughout all of this. So, i think there is this really interesting umbrella term, through interest convergence. It shows how the war developed and how people basically undertook what they had to an order to survive. So, with that i believe my time is up and i will stop. Thank you. Great, thank you very much. Second speaker tonight is emmanuel dabney, he is a graduate of the university of mary washington, and also u. S. C. Greensboro. And, since 2001 he has been employed by the National Park service. Petersburg National Battlefield, if you have visited those terrific facilities at petersburg you have probably either seen emmanuel or at least benefited from the great work he has done there. His title for tonights the forced participation of free blacks in confederate virginia. Over to you. Thank you so much. I am going to attempt to share my screen, if you can find the screen. [inaudible] thank you, everyone, for joining tonight. Im going to be like doctor newhall before me, i want to leave time for people to ask questions. Just to be clear, this talk is not about black confederate soldiers. Other people have written about that issue, and, all of its complexities. That is not what this talk is about. Instead it is about what confederates did most of this time during the civil war. Which is how to extract labor to free up white men to serve in the army. And, in this case, free black men to participate in other ways. I look forward to our discussion later. We will start with the reality that there is the confederate, there are two governments operating within virginia. The Virginia State government, the General Assembly, and the governor, and confederate congress. Which meets in the Virginia State capital, as well as, of course, the confederate president in his cabinet. Immediately, soon after the war begins in the spring of 1861, the confederacy is looking to see how they can extract labor from free black men. People who are not enslaved. And in virginia, in july of 1861, very first day of the month the General Assembly past the first of several laws about their participation in the war. It was very clear what they were looking for, men of prime age between 18 and 50 to do very arduous labor in constructing earthworks and other tasks. And this comes at an interesting moment. The war is just starting, the confederate government had just moved to richmond, but, already there was a campaign constructing earthworks around the new confederate capital. And, the city council in richmond, the third government operating in richmond during the war. Just seven days after the general passed this new law, decided that they were going to encourage the mayor to force free black men to participate in constructing these earthworks. On the 12th of february, 1862, the general passed another law. It is, again, very focused upon forcing sheriffs constables, local court systems, to enroll free black man between 18 and 50 years of age. As they said, to construct batteries, fortifications and other tasks as illustrated in this london newspaper from 1863. This is happening in tandem with conversations about enslaved men doing constructing of fortifications, but slave owners were not overly eager to let people go to the front. In part, it was about the health of the enslaved people that they owned, in part it was relevant to what doctor newhall was just talking about in terms of people escaping if they are closer to the federal lines. They are going to be more apt to escape than within the federal armys lives. So, slave holders are excited by this new federal 1862 law, which will reduce the needs of sending enslaved people to the front. This new law also enforced a set of finds. They sheriffs and constables refused to deliver these free black man would be fined 100. For a black man who evaded the authorities could be forced to pay anything between 150 and 50 for their lack of participation in the confederate war effort. So debate continued in 1862 and 1863 about the participation of free black man in the confederate war effort. And, of course, we see this play out most prominently. Most easily accessible, if you are interested in newspapers. And so, the richmond daily dispatch you can find online. The editor in january of 1863. A week after the emancipation proclamation. The governor thinks it will be wise to enact the law, requiring now residing in portions of the state which have been overrun by the enemy to be moved and put into work upon fortifications. I advise, therefore, that you pass a law authorizing confederate commanders to arrest free negros, list them, and deliver them over to the Popular Office of government. For this is the service that is required, they will receive good wages provided with rations. When the danger has passed they can return to their homes. Here we have a need that the editor of the richmond daily dispatch sees, and he is not alone. Confederate engineer Jeremy Gilmore looked to robert e. Lee about the on finished earthworks in petersburg. He compiled his request that lee demand that the War Department sake 1020 93 black men on top of about 2000 enslaved men to participate in the construction process at petersburg. The county with the least amount that he requested was madison, in the charlottesville area you are familiar with in virginia. That was only seven people. The greatest amount of people came from southampton county in the southeastern part of the state. 142. And, for the city of petersburg and charles city counties to deliver 100 men each. This debate went on, these free black men continued to evade or not participate in the process. The richmond daily dispatches editor in november of 1863, writing, there are free negros enough in virginia to perform all of the necessary fortifications and railroads without impressing slaves for that purpose. There are enough worthless and lazy creatures of this class, in this city, who could dig sufficient dirt to make richmond as impregnable as gibraltar. They should pickup the shovel and pickaxe, and render some consideration for the community they devour. At the present, they are neither fundamental nor useful, it is high tide they should be put to some account. Clearly reflecting his prejudices about free people here in virginia. This waxing and waning went on with confederate congress, and into the state capital. But, in february of 1864, on the 17th of the month, confederate government did step in. They requested 20,000 enslaved men step forward. And, all free male negros, as they said, again, between 1850 years of age do any work for the confederate government needed. To make munitions, to work in hospitals, to do the earthworks. Initially, the government ruling was that these people be paid 11 a month. In november of 1864, our congress amended that to increase pay to 18 a month. Just keeping in mind about confederate inflation, that by the summer of 1864, a barrel of flour is in excess of 150. So, we are not talking about a lot of money. In addition to this earthwork campaign that was going on across virginia, and, indeed, across the confederacy. Free black men were crucial to the operation of confederate hospitals. This image, here, has a detailed map in the library of congress showing whinder hospital in richmond. If people are familiar with richmond, it is in the vicinity of bird park today. In the spring of 1862, just prior to the bloodiest part of the war that would be fought up to that point, the richmond daily news in spanish featured and ad asking for 100 free black men to come as nurses to this hospital. The ad stated that if the parties went willingly, good wages will be paid. And, kind treatment afforded them. If they do not volunteer, they will be impressed. Again, if you come willingly we will be nice, if you do not we are going to force you to do it anyway. The same kind of rhetoric repeated in 1863 at the end of the year, in advance of the bloodier 1864 campaign that would have landed Confederate Forces in petersburg. That impressed free negroes of both sexes into being nurses in hospitals. Then, enslaved people would not be forced to go in as many members, making slave holders happy at the detriment of free black people. The editor continued, if white men can be taken from their families to made to serve the country, surely free negros can be usefully employed. Calling these people idle, and filled with vice. But, free blacks did a whole lot of other work, working for railroads, salt, lead, and iron mines. They were cooks, they were teamsters, just a variety of work that white men could not do as the confederacy continued to expand in 1862, their conscription act. When perhaps the greatest irony of the war, i think, is the amount of black labor that it is going to take to produce the ammunition to kill u. S. Soldiers throughout the south. It is a combination of free black men and enslaved black people, and so, i think this has just not been fully understood, i think it is perhaps best understood in richmond, the confederacys largest iron works, the most confederate cannon and ammunition, railroad cars, all sorts of things that would sustain confederacy. And it is partially still around. In this 1865 photo, the treasure iron works, in the civil war museum, the National Battlefield has a Visitor Center operation on the grounds in present day. The red star, here, marks the location of the 1861 gun foundry. And, among the people who worked there was a man named robert pleasant. He had been employed in a tobacco warehouse. I am sorry, not robert pleasant, but, manson smith, that is who i am thinking of. Who was working there in 1863, 1864. There are a number of people who are able to find new employment because of the war, people who never would have thought about working there before, a carpenter working there. Identified in the 1860 census. But, increasingly, as the war went on there is fewer and fewer opportunities for free black men to earn money on their own accord. Because the confederate war effort was so intense. As the war goes on, theres more more slave labor working alongside the diminishing numbers of white men and increasing numbers of free black men. There is an exciting thing. Thinking about all the effort that has been devoted. Attention since, really, the late 1800s about who this civil war soldiers were. Both union and confederate. Not as much attention devoted to who the free black people are in the confederacy who are making the confederacy function. Even today, as we have sort of seen people writing and researching about enslaved people during the civil war, i see confusion about people in their status. I thought id take a second to highlight who some of these people were. Trent edwards, who ended up becoming a postwar member of the General Assembly, was a prewar brick layer in manchester. A town just across from richmond. It is now within the cities limits. As a property owner, married by 1864. Living with his mother and law, his wife, seven children. In november of that year, he was conscripted. He was forced to leave the work he had been doing. And then go work on the railroad. On in the center is james lipskin. Who became a postwar member of the General Assembly. He had been a carriage driver prior to the civil war working for a white family enrichment. And november of 1864 he too was conscripted by the confederate government. To go work for the engineer department. I think about lip skin in particular. White house life would have been like prior to the war had the war not had to happen. It wouldve how much more successful he couldve become. Some free black man testified about their wartime experiences. Benjamin summers of norfolk, probably was one of the most difficult accounts. I think its important to hear from these people. Im going to read what he had to say. In 1861 or 62 i was taken handcuff and carry to crainee island and made to work on the earthworks with ball and chain on my legs. I was kept their two months when my legs were so bad from the chain i was sent back to suffolk. This was by the confederate authorities. Because i did not want to go and tried to get away, i was given 500 lashes and then rub down with salt brined. He exhibited his body to a white man involved with this testimony who described his hips looking as though large pieces of flesh had been dug out. You think about enslaved people being tortured by enslavers, the confederate government and the various members of the White Society that composed the confederate government, the military, also did this to benjamin summers. The socalled free black person. Probably the most meaningful oral testimony is about this time period for me. I know some of my family members are participating tonight. The testimony of my great, great uncles. Robert dabney and benjamin dabney. The two of them had brothers, george, john and my great grandfather henry. Pictured on the farright. At various points during the war they were forced to go work for the confederate government. Uncle benjamin would testify later, i was impressed into the rebel Service Several times during the war. In 1862, i was taken to manassas for what they said would be 60 days service. It was a year before i was discharged. I drove an army wagon. Several times after, i was compelled to work on the fortifications. I never bore arms or took any oath. My great, great uncle robert was made teamster by the confederate government in 1861. He was told he would only be away for 60 days. It turned into six months. He escaped from where he was and came back home. And then he said, the day after i got home, a rebel officer came for me. I refused to go with him. He drew his pistol. I told him he might shoot but i would not go. My family was starving. Besides, i was unfit for service. This confederate officer may have been a cousin of his. Whoever it was told him to get a doctor suffolk certificate excusing him from further harassment. That was true until late in the war when robert joined his brothers including my great, great grandfather henry and working with the confederate engineers by constructing earthworks for the confederates to defend petersburg. That was the case even as petersburg was evacuated. The Confederate Army retreated westward and then ended up at the crossroads of the courthouse. On the night of april 18th, 1865, henry, his brothers and two other free black man managed to get out of the confederate lines and begin their trek back home to their farms. Only to discover their farm was now in a wreck thanks to the union troops. And their temporary occupations of said farms in april of 1865. I will stop there. I will stop sharing. I will turn it over. Thank you so much. Thank you very much. Powerful story to end on here. I really appreciate that. Last but not least, our final speaker for this evening is david gil man, he teaches history. Hes also an emeritus assistant editor at the papers of abraham lincoln. He is currently working on a book about horses and horsemanship in the civil war era i first got to know him he received a research. Grant to come to Virginia Tech to use our special collections to research this project. I enjoyed learning about his project than. And then when i decided to do this civil war weekend on the theme of resources, he immediately came to mind i am really glad. Hes able to come back virtually of course to Virginia Tech and share his research tonight. His title, as you can see on the screen, great rotation, as much a military supply as a barrel of gunpowder. Wartime horses and mule purchases. Thank you. Over to you. Thank you very much, paul. Thanks to everyone at Virginia Tech for making this possible. My only regret is that it is virtual and it is not being held out on the beautiful campus which i very much enjoyed visiting. First of all, let me apologize in advance. I am going to proceed with this with all due speed and dispatch as i can. So, this may turn out to be somewhat of an academic mule kick to the audience out there. My apologies and advance. I will try to get through as much as i can this evening with all due speed. First of all, i think its important to mention, the rise of Animal Studies as part of the study of history. It is a growing field, a field of which i have been happy to a part of. Also have to remember, the horse has been probably the most valuable animal in Human Service since domestication. Really, the society that we live in now would not have existed without the labor of the horse and its cousin, the mule. Really, from domestication and then the first Historical Records that we have on file, whether they biblical or otherwise, when the horse is mentioned, usually it is connected to war. The horse was rapidly put to use in some military service whether that be for the ancient egyptians, or whoever. It did not take humankind long to discover that armed men on foot versus armed men on horse, armed men on horse usually wins. Horses became an extremely valuable military resource since domestication, right up through the second world war. It has not been that long since horses played a major role both in war and our society in general. Indeed, this is recognized at the time of the civil war held a. Horses were going to be a valuable war resource both and northern and southern press. There will be occasional comments about how the horse is going to serve its patriotic duty natural, either winning southern independence, or restoring and upholding the union. Indeed, questions about horse care during the war will reach all the way to the white house. In fact, the letter i found back in 1996 in the National Archives by alonso still is the one who really got me thinking more and more about this topic of horses in the civil war in particular. I think modern readers perhaps those who have no experience with livestock tend to think of rather like vehicles. They can be used when needed, sat aside for not and ready to go six at the next possible need. Horses, despite their size and power, or actually rather delicate creatures, certainly in their feet and digestive systems. Alonso still will write to president lincoln requesting that he do something for greater care of army livestock. You think that such a letter would go nowhere. It goes from the white house to the War Department and makes its way through various bureaus to act upon or at least be recognized as worth. The United States in 1860, interestingly enough, is the most populous horse nation in the world. We have exactly double the number of horses of our closest rival. That was russia. Interestingly, we are approaching about the same number of about 6. 2 million horses in the United States currently. That was the total thanks to the u. S. Census. We know this of 1860. The horses were not, of course, evenly distributed, just as population. Surprising to many, the greatest horse state in the union in 1860 wasnt virginia, was not kentucky, it was ohio. Ohio had the largest number of animals. A virginia led the way in the south, texas came in roughly about second. Texas was a far more complicated issue being so far away. And then having many those horses running around practically wild. And then, of course, there is the issue of mules. In the south, the south will lead the nation in mule population. Those numbers are actually going to be deceptive. The southern plantation economy actually imports on a yearly basis large numbers of horses and mules from states like missouri, kentucky, and ohio. While the south has the largest meal population at the start of the war, they are not supplying their own numbers. Many of those come from elsewhere. In case anyone doesnt know, mules cannot self reproduce. Mules are the product of a cross between usually a male donkey and a mare, a female horse. That certainly was an issue, they are very useful creatures, they do not selfreproduce. We estimate about 1. 5 million horses and mules died or were killed during the war. About double the human casualties. Horses were recognized as critical war making resource. Montgomery mags usea the phrase, the horses are just like a barrel of gun power. They should be confiscated whenever they are found. None should be left for enemy use. In 1863, just as the federal government is banning the export of any horses to any other nation, canada, for example, you have a confederacy actually trying to import, import from mexico. There are even some suggestions about trying to run horses through the blockade. Which was ridiculously impossible. In fact, theres only one horse i know that actually ran the blockade, a blockade runner. That was an arab that was a gift horse to Jefferson Davis. The horse that is apparently extremely bad tempered. And only Jefferson Davis could actually ride it. For the u. S. Army, just as any supply of horses and mules were purchased by contract bid, and of course, the lowest bidder got the contract. While it worked quite well overall, there certainly were problems. Oftentimes, not the best animals were being secured, because of course, everyone was trying to buy for the lowest possible price. You also had people, quite naturally, taking the opportunity the government buying large numbers of animals to get rid of their most problematic, most ill tempered animal that they might have in their stable. It wasnt until 1864 that there were changes in the law that allowed them to sell directly to the government in smaller numbers. 2, 3, 4,5 et cetera, otherwise they had to be purchased in large numbers. The confederacy relies on the system that goes back to the american revolution, the war of 1812. Especially with the cavalry, private individuals would bring private horses from home. They would receive about 40 cents a day for their use. Supposedly, be provided with forage. If the animal was killed in battle, they would be compensated at the price they were appraised for when it entered service. This also means when their animal dies of sickness, was struck by lightning, or had a nonbattlefield death, you are out of luck. You are not going to be compensated for that. Even if you were, for example, if you brought a horse into the Confederate Army in 1861, that was appraised for 200, which was a good price at that time, by 1863, 64, 200 isnt going to do very much for you trying to purchase any kind of replacement. Youre looking at thousands of dollars per animal by then. Even have confederate leaders at the end of the war saying their policy is for horsing their army, was radically wrong. Indeed, initially, union forces used this same when the war first broke out in the summer of 61, you had a number of union units organized the same way. But union forces, especially Army Administration is going to begin to phase that out. By 1863, any privately held animals in Union Service are going to be purchased by the federal government and no additional, no new ones were going to be provided. The federal government would provide animals that were disabled or killed in service. Now, the union could do things the confederacy could not. For a number of reasons, a larger horse population, a larger revenue stream that for example, union forces specified, that animals had to be a certain age, from 4 to 9 years. They would shift that from 6 to 10. They were to be a particular color. Dark hues were preferred. And they were to be geldings, no mares, no stallions were to be purchased by the army for military use. There were a number of reasons for that. It was impossible to exclude all mares from Union Service. So there were some that would get in there. The confederacy, of course, is in no way able to restrict any type of animal that was going to be brought, or purchased into confederate service. When it comes to mules, there were also requirements and restrictions. In fact, in color scheme, iron gray mules were preferred. No light colored mules. No lights or dappled. At the time, it was a 19th century myth, it turns out, that iron gray mules had better stamina. And, in many ways theyre the Unsung Heroes of the war. Both armies would rely on them for mode of power. Further baggage and supply rains. Without the mule, civil war armies do not move. The also longer lived horses. They can eat worse food, they can be worse treated and were. They can do better in harsher conditions then horses. And so, very quickly both armies would start eliminating horses from their wagon trains and replacing them with mules. There are even accounts of deal teams purchased in 1861 that are still in union army service in 1865. And were good to go for years and years past. Usually it was in the inspection process that there were, early on in the war, shenanigans with contractors bribing inspectors to pass horses that were not up to snuff. Of course, collect from the u. S. Government. Eventually the army would crack down on that, to the point that every animals purchased by the union army by 1864 would have several brands on it including the initials of the inspector that pass them. If the animal reaches the front and its non serviceable, they can trace it exactly back to who passed it and punishments could then be meted out. Price wise, both union and confederacy, the prices are the same at the start of the war. Anywhere from 50 to 120, basically. As the war goes on, as the need goes up, you have prices go up as well. By the end of the war youre looking at prices around 200 each, for horses and mules in the union army. In the confederacy, basically, prices have spiraled. Almost completely out of control. Youre looking at 2, 000, 3,000 to try to replace an animal. And you have southerners who are refusing to sell to the Confederate Army unless they pay in gold, unless they pay in cash immediately. By the end of the war you had robert e. Lee trying to figure out if can we somehow sift horses from union states into the confederacy and solve our horsing problem that way. Of course, the union also benefits from having a better Transportation Network in order to get these vast numbers of animals that are being purchased to the front both by rail and by water. The confederacy actually will restrict the shipment of any animals by rail and the confederacy if youre mounted and youre heading to were writing if not allowed to use any of the few trains that the confederacy has available. And both north and south, at least, officially on paper, the rations that the animals are to be provided were basically the same. Theyre both using the old u. S. Army regulations in order to say you need ten pounds of hay, you need 14 pounds grain for each animal, per day. Both animals of course will encounter shortages of that. In the confederacy its going to be much, much worse. Trying to certainly get forages big and bulky. Getting it transported to the front is very difficult and the confederacy is going to have real issues with that. Confederate armies are going to be certainly their animals are going to be reduced in flash and practically starving. A number of occasions during the war. The Union Resources in transport and because of ongoing mechanization of agriculture will make supplying union armies in the field much easier than it really had ever previously been in warfare. I just have a number of totals there. The vast amount of green and hate purchases that were made during the war is really quite extraordinary. There were even some fun things, at least i find them fun, suggested. One of the favorite things that i found in the archive was, as you see, a sketch on the suggestion for what was called an electric battery saddle. It was a saddle that apparently had an electric battery underneath it. That battery would power to small guns that would be mounted on the horses weathers. It would be fired by a pedal within the stirrup, much like your cars gas pedal. Kudos for the inventiveness of the individual who thought this app. It was, of course, wildly impractical. Of course, it never goes beyond the design stage. Also, more practical, it also did not go very far in the war, a suggestion and then experimentation for concentrated horse viewed. Basically ground upgrade and pellets that could be carried on campaign. It was billed as food for man and beast. If man ran short of rations they could take a scoop of the form and throw it in hot water and make some sort of mush which you could enjoy if necessary. Well, of course armys 19th century armies are going to be battling the weather as well as each other. Both heat and cold are going to prove to be enormous difficulties to have to overcome on active campaign. Whether its freezing winter or sunstroke in the summer, the animals are going to suffer quite readily from. They are already under stress and duress. Certainly, on campaign. Indeed, you have people like Charles Francis adams writing home saying, you know, if you could only see the animals on which these dashing cavalry raids raids reporting, if you could only see what they look, like you would be horrified. They dont look anything like they do and paintings or in illustrations. The rib sticking out. Even just marching without battle in the offing was a draining and difficult process. Four miles an hour was considered a killing two horses. So,. Armies whether they be in the confederate, are constantly losing animals. Whether or not they are facing an enemy or not. Part of this loss comes from inexperience of troopers, poor commanders, oftentimes, early in the war, you have civilians in command of units, they dont take very good care of their animals. That certainly is a detriment. It quickly shows. It was said early on that you can tell immediately a unit whether they had an old army, west point in command, or a civilian by the shape of their animals. Indeed, in battle, these animals, horses especially were targets for both counter battery fire and sniper fire. Of course, they are a large target and if you can kill enough of them, the artillery battery can be far more easily captured. So, you will have fire purposely directed toward the teams that would be standing just off from the firing line of an active engagement. Of course, you will have, at gettysburg, some 3000 animals are killed, at this siege of chattanooga, roughly 10,000 animals are going to be killed or starve to death because of the restrictors of supply. By 1864, Union Authorities will make a ruling and say that no longer, if an animal breaks down on the march, we are not turning it loose anymore. Too many of those animals branded u. S. Are ending up in the Confederate Army. If an animal breaks down or becomes in operable on the march, theyre going to be shot. Theyre going to be killed immediately. Were not going to let them end up and used by our enemies. Which is what was happening. You have men that comment on this, this poor animal just needs a few days of rest and actual food, and you have to kill it because youre not letting it behind for the enemy to use against you. Indeed, this is an issue throughout the war. Whether infield, or behind the lines. What you do what you do with this large number of dead animals . Interestingly enough, there is money to be made in it. By 1864, you have contractors that are bidding for the dead animals, that are having to be shot, theyre philanderer, they have contagious disease. For 1. 30, for a u. S. Army horse carcass, you can profit up to 5. Take off the skin, the hide, the hoofs can be sold for ugly, et cetera. You can end up profiting 5. There were reports of one contractor in 1864 made a 60,000 dollar profit on it. So, while a grizzly business, it wasnt an unprofitable one. Unlike the confederacy, resources matter. The u. S. Army was able to build a large remount depot. There is one outside washington, which is now a Bowling Air Force base, near Reagan International airport it was over 600 acres. It could hold up to 600,000 head. It was an interesting complex. They had all kinds of steam driven mills. They had eventually hospital stables. One of the problems both north and south have, there is no real trained veterinarians in the United States. I found very few records. The few that do exist are usually foreign trained. From denmark, from france, from england, et cetera. Indeed, if an animal is able to make it back from the front, back to one of these remount depots, they have a 50 50 chance or better, of being cured, or rehabilitated and put back in service or sold back to private purchasers. By the end of the war, by the having built up this large military complex, the armies, by this point, 1865, its the union army only. We are going to have to unload all of these animals. There will be national, basically, a National Military Liquidation Sale of all these horses and mules purchased by the army. And theyll go for Bargain Basement prices. There were some suggestions that perhaps, Union Veterans should get a special bonus, give them a low lower price. But it was not necessary. Animals that had been purchased for 200 in, shall we say, march of 65, by may of 65 are selling for 50 or 60. Having built up the army, the army is going to have to be de mobilized and selling of all these animals will be necessary. At the end of the war, the long term impact, by 1870, the states of the former confederacy have nearly 250,000 less horses than they had in 1860. The north, on the other hand, will gain 1. 2 million. I think im going over time, as is, so i will stop there. I will say, if anything im said interests you, theres lots more information on upcoming book on animals in the civil war, in which i have a chapter, by almost the same title. I will stop, now alternate back to paul, and await your questions with eagerness. Thank you very much. Very fascinating talk. Weve already got a good number of questions on the table. Thanks very much for sending those in. Im going to start with a question from caroline. There are a cluster of questions, one way or another relating to lincolns role in all of this. Including the nature of his authority over the confederate states, in the emancipation proclamation. Also the evolution of his stance on the time. The way the question was phrased, did he know, in 1861, that he was at some point going to issue an emancipation proclamation, or was it more of a decision he came to overtime. Finally, another person was asking about the impact of Frederick Douglass on abrahams lincolns thinking on emancipation . I realize thats a lot. You can do at least one book on that question alone. So, feel free to attack any part of the question you want to. Absolutely, yes, lincoln is really interesting. Theres so many good works on this. Im only scratching the very bare minimum surface of this topic. Lincoln was not an advocate for emancipation. He was not for the majority of the war. Even when he initiated emancipation, he had many hesitations about it. He did not think that the federal government had the legality, the standing, in order to affect that. He thought it was a states right issue. That was always his stance. He tried to reassure the Southern States about this during his president ial campaign. He believed in limiting the spread of slavery, but didnt want to get rid of it where it existed. He felt that Self Determination was the courts that had to be followed by the states. If emancipation was to happen, it had to be affected at the state level. So he did not start off the war with an idea of emancipating slaves, of enacting equality. That was something he came to as a war strategy. Thats something that he had to be goaded into, by people like Frederick Douglass. Frederick douglass met with lincoln constantly throughout the war. He was consistently advocating for allowing black americans to participate. Freeman, enslaved people, taking them on, paying them equally. He was advocating at all, at all times, for the advancement of black americans through the war effort. Stating that he they had just as much as stake as white americans. They had to be, because they were americans. They were part of america. They built america. They were part of the Wealth Creation of america. So all of the wealth in the south, Frederick Douglass was coming off of the backs of enslaved people. They were making america a reality. If anyone had a stake as americans, it was black americans. This was a delicate line for lincoln. He came to realize that, along with the agitation of various abolitionists, generals, philanthropists, civilians, he was constantly getting advice from everybody. This is back in a time when president s like lincoln still meet with people on a week to week basis and hear from the public. Its a very different context that were used to now. So he had to be dragged along to that stance. For him, i think, the process of enabling it as a war measure under the parents that he had as commanderinchief was the way that he could square this strategy, essentially. A military tactic that he recognized had value. I think its best expressed, perhaps, by somebody like henry alec, to grant, in march 1863 by saying that every slave removed from the south is a white man taken from the battlefield for the confederacy. That is a consideration with the prisoner exchanges. Many things. He had to be dragged along. It took a lot of agitation, by radicals, by abolitionists, and it was really when the means of the war met these agitations by people for years, and years. He recognized that it had to use as a war measure. But he was still going to limit it as much as possible. I think one of the most telling things that happened with lincoln was that he expressed to spread of the south and bring them into the north. Frederick douglass, the idea that perhaps they could institute a sort of underground railroad to get people out of the south, and bring them into the north. If the north wasnt successful, they could at least bring people out of the south through extra legal means, essentially. Freedom that way. He wasnt ever going to encroach on power, and legal power that he felt he didnt have. That was continually infuriating for a lot of people. That was the hard part of being president , and being commander in chief, and trying to square the needs of the people with the needs of the nation. The desires of the people, and what has to happen in war. So i dont necessarily have a stance on the morality of what lincoln is doing, but i understand his position. Yeah, i think that explains the aging that he experienced during the war. You compare the photos of lincoln from the beginning and the end. You can see the burden that he was barren. Thank you for the answer. A question for emmanuel. So, given that free black men in virginia, you know, knew it was coming here. They knew it was very likely at some point, the hand of the confederate government, whichever authority is going to reach down and try to compel them to do this labor. Did many of them flee confederacy territory to avoid that . Great question. People did leave. Quantifying how many people is challenging. Were still estimating that a half million enslaved people fled during the course of the war. Piecing out how many people were fleeing is challenging. Certainly one of the people that i found through i didnt find, dr. Edna greene found years ago, now, in charles city county. Free black woman who was living on a farm. She had children, one of them was her older son. Was prime age to be forced into the Confederate Military use, to do earthworks. He did so until he managed to get back home. He fled and ended up going down into hamptroads region, enlisted in a union, u. S. Regiment. He fought during the civil war and was discharged, died in the post war years. Thats a great example. Somebody who did not want to go dig earthworks for the confederacy. Didnt want to be further harassed by the confederacy. And yet made a challenging choice of leaving a middle aged mother at home with younger children, they were siblings, to go fight in u. S. Colored troop unit. Free blacks were facing some of the same challenges that colored folks were facing. I hoped we can find out more about the flight of free blacks. Yeah, absolutely. As you say, it would be impossible to count them all. And recover every experience, but the more we can, the better. For david now, a question about the tremendous loss of horses and mules, specifically in the former confederacy in the civil war. Do you have a sense of how long it took for the population of horses and mules to recover from those losses during the war . Well, certainly, it wasnt until the 1890s, because the number that i was using were based on the census of 1870. So ten years after the war, youre looking at, for the south, about 250,000 head down. Again, the post war period was not a prosperous period, generally, in the south. Replacing them numerically, i think, was difficult. I dont have an exact date for it. I assume not until the 1890s. That makes sense, thank you. Another one for emmanuel. One of our attendees said that they have heard that their great, great grandfather from the manchester area was a free black man impressed into service by the confederacy during the civil war. Do you have any suggestions for research, resources that this person can look to to try to verify whether that was true and find out a little bit more about the ancestor . Yeah, so, free black people are easier to research than enslaved people. My own families line, i have both. So, if you have any sense of names to go to the census for 1860 and 1850, and start looking through the chester field county, manchester, not in richmond, during the civil war era. Search that way. In terms of trying to find out the Confederate Military service, there is a couple of different ways. One is, another researcher, rene ingraham, went to the National Archives. A place that were missing right now, those of us who love to research. Its closed due to covid. But the Library Recently reopened. She got a copy of these engineer records from the National Archives. The cover, may 1864 to early 1865. His name may be listed there. Thats how i would found out my own family history, partially. Then the National Archives has recently, in the last year and a half or so digitized what was referred to as the slave rolls, the slave payrolls. Sometimes there were freed black people who are caught up in these records, as well. They are digitized. I think my friend, dr. Adam bambe s here. He has a website. It makes it a little more easy to navigate than the National Archives Search Engine in terms of looking for counties that people were coming from, and where they were going. Chester field county, lets say, has a list of people that are going to go to the richmond defenses. More often than not, they are enslaved people. But sometimes you can find free black people. Great, thank you very much. Thats really useful. Just a few minutes left. I want to ask you a question, the same question of each of you, which is, how critical do you think the resource that you talked about was when you think about the outcome of the war . And anyone can jump in. Mines most important. I beg to differ. [laughs] they are all equally important. Ill start off and say, i think the implementation of striking at the interior of the confederacy the confederacys failure to recognize that in the past, foreign enemies had made use of the enslaved population, essentially, and enslaved people making use of foreign enemies, as well. Its a dual process. Its not one or the other. I think they maybe, in overcorrecting towards upholding a white supremacist, enslaving nation that was dedicated solely towards the process of maintaining complete authority, was too rigid. I think that that had significant ramifications. Had they been able to make concessions to enslaved people, had they been able to emancipate men who would have had signed up and emancipated their families, that is something that was advocated in several arenas, saying, if we give incentives to fight for the confederacy, they will fight for the confederacy. They defend their homes, they defend their families, their self interests, their communities. If you give them a reason to. I think the failure to do that was definitely significant. I think that was one of many fatal errors that the confederacy made that they didnt recognize. One of many, obviously. Theres so many happy accidents, and unforeseen things that happened during the war that couldve completely changed the whole trajectory. I cant say for sure that one was the driving factor, but i think that recognizing that there are more than 1 million military aged men within your ranks who could be willing to help if you gave them a reason to, i think thats a massive failure. Definitely a contribution, but one of many, many that happened. It could have been avoided in many different ways, had several Different Things happened. Yeah, great, thank you. Emmanuel . David . Would you like to make a pitch . I would just say, the confederacy ran out of horses before they ran out of men. Great. I like it. Simply put. You kind of need those. In the 19th century, you absolutely do. One of the other interesting fun finds in the archives was suggestions for what was called a steam wagon, which was the precursor to the modern tank. And, emmanuel, its a slightly different question for you. Of course, you are talking about forced labor on behalf of the confederacy that lost the war. I guess the question is what difference did the coerced labour made to the confederates, or if much of a difference . I would say that the coerced labor allowed the confederacy to exist for four years. The firing of fort sumter april 61, the effort to force black people, both free and enslaved to participate starts in the spring of 1861. It gets codified into law, in the summer of 1861. It continues, and continues. The demands upon free black people to abandon their responsibilities at home, to force them to uphold a slave holding nation is really interesting. But in allowed confederacy military personnel, white soldiers that were fighting, to fight. It was more than to shoot guns at u. S. Troops. If they didnt have to be somewhere else, often far away from u. S. Troops, to dig earthworks, or work in hospital, impossible if youre iron works, half of the labor for was black by 1863. So it certainly helped the confederacy last as long as it did. I think thats really a good way of putting it, thank you. Unfortunately, were out of time. I really want to thank our three presenters from this evening, after such a fantastic start, really enjoyed your talks, and the conversation afterwards. Thank you to the attendees for the questions. That you gave to us, we really appreciate you joining us this evening. I really hope that you come back next week, for three more great presentations on tangible resources, things like clothing, photographs, that kind of thing that americans used in the civil war. When you log off from tonights zoom webinar, you should be directed to the registration page for next years event. Even if you registered for tonight, you have to register again for next week, and again for the week after that. I hope you all keep coming back for more. We will certainly be glad to have you. Finally, i want to thank my colleagues at the Virginia Tech continuing professional education unit. They did such a wonderful job organizing this whole thing. And handling the registration, and making everything run smoothly with zoom. Thank you leland shelton, and caroline, goodnight. Weekends on cspan two are an intellectual feast. Every saturday, American History tv documents america story. And on sundays, book tv brings you the latest in nonfiction books and authors. Funding for cspan two comes from these television companies. Including wow. The world has changed a fast reliable Internet Connection now more than ever at all starts with great internet. Book tv features authors discussing their latest books. But Tv Republican senator tim scott talked about his new book, redemption story and america. Its life, political story, and political future. At 10 pm afterwards missouri democratic congresswoman kari bush author of the foreigner discusses her life and advocacy work. Shes interviewed by Huffington Post editorinchief daniel malofiy. Watch book tv every sunday on cspan two. 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