Transcripts For CSPAN3 The Civil War 20150525

County campus for columbia state. And i trust that like i you have truly enjoyed your day today. I often tell people that i was raised in ohio and where i grew up the civil war was a paragraph or two in a history book. The north won, slavery ended and that was all we needed to know. It wasnt something to be discussed or remembered. It wasnt until i joined Columbia State Community college and began working in franklin that i realized the civil war was more than a story in a book. I began to understand that this war impacted real people, real Families Communities businesses, and its presence is still felt today. I have the opportunity to serve on the boards of franklins charge and the battle of Franklin Trust and while our primary work is restoring, preserving and reclaiming franklins battlefields, education and advocacy is no less important. What ive learned of my own history since being in franklin is that my great, great grandmother, Laura Charleston was born into slavery in east texas. And she was 8 years old when president lincoln issued the emancipation proclamation, which freed the slaves in territories held by confederates which is something not everyone understands about the proclamation, and emphasized the enlisting of black soldiers in the union army. It was with this proclamation that the war to preserve the union became a revolutionary struggle for the abolishment of slavery. We cannot talk about this period in our history without talking about slavery however painful it may be to some. And we cannot examine its outcomes without acknowledging our colored troops that fought for freedom. And we are going to do both of those in this final session. I applaud dr. West and his team that has put this together to put this session on this program because it is very relevant. I am going to introduce both of the people you see on your panel. Im going to go ahead and do their bios. And then they are going to speak to you individually. And then were going to open it back up for questions. First, nicole moore is a public historian, museum professional blogger, consultant, and interpreter of slave life. She holds a bachelors in psychology and a masters in history. With a concentration in public history from the university of North Carolina at charlotte. Her masters thesis, presenting slafry, the interpretation of slavery and its place in public history and at historic latsa plantation examined how Historic Sites delivered slave life to visitors. Shes a contributing author to the book best practices for interpreting slavery at Historic Sites and museums, from roam sxn littlefield publishing group. Today she consults with Historic Sites on best practices on how to tell the story of enslaved men, women and children through programming, exhibits, and educational materials. She is also an educator who developed School Programs Public Programs and special events for three historic houses. Now our soldier. William c. Bill radcliff is a u. S. Navy veteran who served in vietnam. He attended Fisk University in nashville nashville, tennessee and is a 27year veteran of the National Fire department from which he retired. Bill has been a reenactor of the for the third Team United States colored infantry for over 25 years. The u. S. Colored troops promotes a greater awareness and understanding of africanamerican military service and sacrifice during the civil war. Their lasting contribution to freedom and continued legacy and relevance to freedom and democracy. He has been a member of the Tennessee Civil War Sesquicentennial Commission since 2011. Bill has made multiple appearances in television and historical documentaries and was a model for the first statue of an africanamerican Civil War Soldier in a national cemetery. Please join me in welcoming both of our speakers. [ applause ] im sorry yall. I was outside in the cold today. So now my allergies are kicking my tail. Good afternoon, everybody. How are you doing . Great. What im going to do is probably going to be a little bit different than what you would what you will expect. When i do interpretation, i usually do third person and not first. So if you were looking for an exact portrayal, im sorry. However, doing third person allows me to speak directly to you in a way that you will understand. And this works well with audiences because when you are in first person a lot of the times you cant break your character to engage your audience and you can see that there would be a question on their face and you cant answer it because thats not your time period. So what im going to do is just real talk and kind of go over a little bit about emancipation and freedom and what that probably would have felt like, and were going to look at it from a couple of point of views. And am i talking too fast . Because i feel like im talking really fast. Im good . All right. And then im going to just let bill go and hell be fine. Then well open it up for questions. So last year when i was at chattanooga i got the opportunity to interpret to the schoolkids, and it was really amazing. What i like about children is that they are pretty much blank slates and i can help them find a love of history that a lot of us now well, these are history lovers in the room, so yall dont have this problem but for the more of the public who think history is boring and just meh. I can bring that love of history to children and get them engaged. And it was because of that engagement last year that im here this year. So instead of talking about just what an everyday life of an enslaved woman would be i want to talk to you a little bit about what might have been going through her mind now that shes facing freedom. So this first part well talk about if i were an enslaved woman, minding my business, doing my thing and i hear these rumblings of my cohorts talking about our plantation has been abandoned, nows the timar us to go. I hear these things as im going about my daily duties and i start thinking to myself, well yeah. I probably could leave find complete freedom and get away from here. Tired of doing these peoples dishes. This food that i burnt and then i had to redo took me forever. Maybe i do want to leave. At this point in my life i have no ties. I have no husband. I have no kids. Why not . What do i have to lose . I have nothing to lose. The only thing i have to gain is my freedom. So i decide who do i let in on this secret . Because i heard you talking but i cant trust you. I dont know who is going to tell somebody else what the plan is and then everybody gets caught, nobody gets freedom, and my life is made miserable. So while i hear you in the background, im going to plot on my own. When do i do this . How do i do this . Where am i going . When i get to wherever it is that im going, what am i going to do with myself . I have some skills. Im a seamstress. I can cook. I can do a little bit of this a little bit of that. Let me pack what Little Things that i have, slip out quietly into the night, and go through the woods. Im going to do what my grandmother and what ive heard my great grandmother to do and that is to find the drinking gourd. Im going to look up and find the big dipper and look at the moss on the trees. Its cold. So i know that i might want to grab my cloak. Even though i didnt finish mending my cloak for the winter. Im going to go ahead and grab that. Get my shoes even though theyre falling apart. Im going to head out. Im going to move silently and swiftly. Im going to find those safe houses that ive heard something about. And im going to hope that in the end everything is all right. And as i make this journey im cognizant that if i get caught i have absolutely zero idea whats going to happen to me. I dont know if i will find somebody who will assist me in my journey or aim going to find somebody that says hey, all right, free money come with me . Will i make it to a union contraband camp where i can at least find work there and hope for my freedom with that . Im not really sure. Im just going to take the risk. Im going to roll the dice and go. And this scenario fortunately i make it to wherever im going. I can start my life brand new. Freedom has come for all. But what about those i left behind who waited for official freedom . What are they going to do . Are they going to stay down there . Should i go back to where i came from to bring them up to my new life that i had, those Close Friends that i have or should i just forget everything and start over . These are some of the conversations im going to have in my head because my life has suddenly shifted from one of enslavement to complete and total freedom. But do i really have complete and total freedom . Can i walk the streets at night . Can i visit my friends without fear of harassment danger, or worse . Thats kind of the decision that im going through if i decide to go. Flipping back to the very beginning of this scenario, i hear those whispers and those rumblings of freedom and yes lets go escape. This scenario, though i have a husband. I have children. Im fortunate. My family is still with me. My husband i know is very hesitant on escaping. He says lets just wait, lets wait it out. Lets see what happens. Im a little bit like ive been waiting for a while. Nothings happened really yet but well continue to wait. And while we wait and wait and wait we hear the tales of others who have gone on, gotten freedom. We hear the tales of those who have run away. And they have been captured. And he lets me know each night that i question that decision that we decided to stay when theres a possibility we could have had a new start at life, what about our kids . How are you going to carry the three of them . Theyre young. Where are we going to go . Do we leave two of them behind and take the oldest one and hope that we can find a new life, start a new life and when freedom comes for all we can go back for our two children . So now youre asking me to choose between freedom and my children. And do i leave one or two and then come back . Thats not playing fair. The next day somebody else has gone off and they have successfully left and i look back again and say so what are we going to do here . Well where are we going to go . What are we going to do . Yes, i may be a blacksmith and you a seamstress but then what . Oh, all right. Were playing this game. And the next day as we hear more and more and more im tired of waiting for freedom. Why cant we take it . All right. You go. Well stay here. So youre asking me to leave everything that i know and everything that i hold dear because i dont want to wait. These are some of the decisions that enslaved africanamericans faced. Lets face it. Freedom is great. It is what you want. But at what cost . Do you leave behind your family . Do you leave behind your friends . Do you leave behind everything that you know . Or do you wait for emancipation which is also fantastic . The only thing about emancipation is you have to understand, when these millions of africanamericans were freed they were freed but they had no home, no clothing, no food no shelter, no job. It was just you are free, but im free to do what . So do i go into the unknown with legal freedom or do i take my freedom, take my skills and make life happen for myself . Its hard to fully understand in modern in 2014 these decisions because its just hard to have that conversation with yourself today. What would you do . And i dont like it when people ask me well, what would you do . Because i dont know. These are reallife decisions that had to be made, some of them within minutes hours of hey, this idea came up why dont you come . I dont know if i could leave my family. I have a 5yearold. I have a husband. I have a hard enough time traveling and doing stuff for a couple of days without them with me. So i cant imagine thinking to myself, do i stay in this life and hope for Something Better with them or do i take the chance now and go out and hope that what i find is better and i can do something for them . So when people ask you know, well, why do you do this and why do you portray this life . This is why. We dont have these conversations. We dont have to make these decisions today. But we do need to understand that the choices that others made led us to where we are today. In every aspect we need to understand those decisions. They may not have been the best ones. They may have been the best decisions. But understand why they had to happen. What criteria needed to be met for someone to say im going to leave everything and go for broke. Before i can even begin to try to judge the past. I dont like judging those in history because i wasnt there. I didnt have to make that choice. But by studying their lives and understanding the circumstances would i leave my family today . No. But i can fully understand why, lets say, my great, great grandmother would have left hers, hoping for better. I could fully understand why someone would stay if an opportunity of freedom came and instead of taking that opportunity they would have stayed. Its not that they didnt want to be free. They just wanted more. And if freedom didnt mean freedom with familyw a place to stay with security then maybe ill wait a little longer until those things are available to me. So when we talk about emancipation and freedom and when we talk about slavery in general and when we just talk about the thoughts and the feelings and emotions that these people had, we cant think of it in our terms. We have to think of it in theirs. And its important to understand. You know when you grew up you had those choose your adventure books. Sometimes when we interpret history we have to decide, especially if youre doing portrayals, which adventure are you going to choose . And you cant always pick the one that just ends happily ever after. Sometimes you have to show that there were risks involved and those risks didnt lead to the best circumstances. But fortunately for you all today, i choose my adventure to take my family, find freedom, and live a better life. What i think we need to really understand about this particular time period and enslaved men and women and those who were fighting with the sxun those who were running away and those who were doing things to better their own lives, we have to honor that decision and we have to do that by speaking about it by studying it by learning it, by putting it in our schools and saying that the war just wasnt the north won, slavery ended yay. We have to look at the nuances of it. We have to understand the battles. We have to understand not just battles but home life. We have to understand people. We have to look at them as people. First and foremost understanding these are people thoughts feelings, and emotions the same things we have today and hold dear today are the same things they struggled with 150plus years ago. And without that were lost. And without that we cant accurately portray and we cant accurately discuss and we cant do future generations that service of broadening their horizons and better understanding. So that is my spiel. Im going to turn it over to yeah, its your turn. I talked. My throat hurts. Im going to turn it over to mr. Bill radcliff. Hes going to be fine. [ applause ] you got this. You dont have a wireless. I dont want it. See . Good afternoon, everybody. I i cant speak in the third person. My makeup doesnt allow me to do that. Im one of those funny people that have to think about what theyre going to say and before they forget it write it down. So with sister nicoles wonderful dissertation that i enjoyed im going to do my best to follow up with maybe something you all can take away from this experience. I have to tell you this experience for me im going to be honest with you, i guess as a sailor, a firefighter, ive been a reenactor about 26 years and im extremely nervous. But having said that im going to take my time and my little notes and pass along what i have to tell you. I want to thank you all for being here. I want to thank all the honored guests that are in attendance. My associates on the ses sesqui the commission. My brothers and sisters from the 13th United States colored troops. Mr. And mrs. Hill, mr. And mrs. Overton and the lovely mrs. Radcliff. Weve had a great day today. The honors mine to be standing here before you today as a member of the sesquicentennial commission. And as a representative of history 150 years ago this journey has been a true blessing for me. The people ive been associated with for what we have accomplished during this 150th commemoration of the civil war in the state of tennessee for the wonderful relations ive made, what ive been able to learn, to share and experience. As a civil war reenactor its true we live history, experience, trials, depredations, and the lives of all who preceded us. Yes, its fun. It is fun to run around, load and fire, shoot at the enemy, know that you can go home when its done. But also at the same time there is something more. Its like a time portal before us. Its something unseen that defies explanation. To those of us who experienced this it kind of calls us, it beckons us to even to look a little deeper. It might sound strange or curious, but to those of us who care not much for history but to actually go to a place where history occurred, to walk the same ground and be where regular human beings went forth, whatever side they fought on to give up all the more willing, the last full measure of devotion for what i believe is truly remarkable. These are not just words. They never have been. The places, the battlefields from virginia to texas are sites where real people gave away their futures. They are there. And theyll always be there. Be it bull run shiloh, gettysburg nashville or franklin. It happened here on this soil of the United States of america. To walk these sites, take us places where sacrifices were made where we can only meditate and say thanks. Ive been to places, they appear peaceful and tranquil. Oh, that we knew what they knew. Our saving grace is that we have a chance now through efforts of our state tourism, our sesquicentennial commission, the people of our state who choose to learn and share this time portal will continue to beckon us all. For us to read, investigate be a living witness pass on to future generations and older generations that the truth can really set you free. I speaking for myself have found that freedom. I have freedom from doubt, from ignorance of living and a frame where i wouldnt be compelled to know my family or its history. Fortune showed me my parents were willing to tell me what i desired to know. Treasures were revealed. I did achieve this freedom by living and experiencing this journey. Im not saying my journey should be a requirement for ones personal freedom, but i am an advocate of personal growth through education. No one should be able to make anyone do anything. Thats what the blood of millions in times past was sacrificed. But we do need to take pause. We need to see where we are and see where weve been, and see where were going. Wouldnt it be great if all of our personal journeys ended up a National Journey and we all could benefit together . In closing id like to say im truly honored to be part of such a great group these past years who accepted me and made me feel welcome welcome. I thank you all, and god bless you all. [ applause ] thank you again to our panelists. And i would like to open this up for questions. If you have particular questions, there are microphones on two aisles. You are welcome to come forth. And ask any questions you would like. I see someone right here. Please go ahead. Yes. This is for nicole. Also bill if you want to answer. What is the worst interpretation youve seen of enslaved life . And you dont have to name the place. You can keep that anonymous if you want. Do you have a i dont think my microphone is on. Wait, it is. Yeah, it is. Because i took the other one off. Steelactually, i do know a couple of place thats have done the worst. But the worst to me is having uneducated interpreters. Amen. You need to have people who know what theyre talking about, who understand the history and can deliver without bias. Absolutely. To me the worst places are for those who do first person this doesnt apply to them. The third person the worst are when you have one or two africanamericans and theyre the ones who talk about slavery. Especially if youre doing third person everybody on your staff should be able to give some part of the history. And fur not doing that you are doing a disservice not only to your staff members, you are dishonoring those that you are remembering and you are doing the largest disservice to your public, who is there to learn. It doesnt mat whoer whoter who says it as long as the information is accurate, true to the site, which is important and delivered with unbiased honesty then you cant go wrong. When you dont do these things, not only are you the worst interpreter, you are the worst site. And do not deserve the attention of your public. A little harsh, but thats how i feel. Anything . No, you covered it all. Theres another person here, and then well go to the other side. I guess this would be addressed mostly to nicole. Unless mr. Radcliff, unless you have something to add to it. But i guess in a similar vein what is the most difficult or most challenging interpretation that you yourself have done . One of the most difficult i have done is it was a first person theres a very strong reason why i dont do first person a lot. And its because i do like to engage in the audience and really get them to kind of look past the clothing and everything to really understand the history. But i did a firstperson interpretation where we talked about sisters who had been separated. I dont have a sister. So for me it was just doing the interpretation. I had two older white women come up to me in tears afterwards and they were talking about how they were moved because they couldnt imagine having someone forcibly separate them and then reuniting like i think our time period was like 30 years later these two sisters reunited. And you cant control other peoples emotions but to really see them touched by that and not just take it as oh well this is a nice little script that theyre going over but make that correlation into their lives and make that connection, thats a thats great. Because what you want people to do is you want them to make connections personally. You want them to have that. I would think that what comes to mind, you know, nicole speaks of doing third person. Where im most comfortable in the first person. Because that way i can do what i need to do and hide. But at the same time i think that when i do a first person my research and my will and the belief that im telling a story that needs to be told, i feel more in that aspect i had an experience that well, ive had several in reenactments and different venues but this particular one we were in andersonville, georgia. We were at the p. O. W. Camp in andersonville. We portrayed prison as a war. And there were black prisoners and white prisoners. And our confederate captors had us in an area that was pretty much the same area where the prisoners were kept. And i portrayed a wounded soldier. And i needed to go to the soldier. And in my delirium, if you will because i was supposed to be delirious from my wound, a lot of my former life came up as a slave. And were that aspect of doing that first person my friend and i, we ended up taking it to another level that we really had no control. It was like we were being guided, if you will, spiritually or whatever you want to call it. But you know as nicole said there, were people there that literally were in tears because in my delirium i was back with my family and things happened to my family that i recalled and i actually found myself crying. So you know, im not saying what nicole does as a third person doesnt work. But i think through my studies and research and experiencing some things first person can bring Something Else to the table that defies explanation. Really does. Thank you. Over on this side. Well, thank you both. Nicole, this is the first time ive seen you unless you might have been down at wessington at the state museum. No. Okay. That was so nicely done. But i have seen bill. In fact, i follow you around nashville. I saw you in madison. Saw you at the madison library. Most recently at fort negley, where you portrayed a sailor. And id like for to you speak about that a little bit because it was just entirely unknown to me. Yes, maam. Please speak on that a bit. Id be happy to. Thank you for remembering me. Well, thats one aspect of the civil war here in middle tennessee that doesnt get a lot of attention. And i do belong to a civil war naval unit but theyre based in massachusetts. So actually my unit is there but im here. So i represent what would be the western theater in the naval experience. And there were a lot of africanamerican sailors connected with the navy and the gun boats and river warfare that went on on these rivers here. And a lot of the major battles that were fought some lost, some won, were fought for control of the rivers. So i knew this story just from reading, and i made my connection to this particular naval unit in massachusetts. And my Commanding Officer was tickled to death he had somebody in tennessee. So i inadvertently skroindjoined, me and a buddy of mine. We both have been doing Civil War Army for a long time. And ive got to be honest with you, doing the navy is a breeze compared to wearing this all the time. And there arent very many sailors. So knowing and learning their story is beneficial in telling the real story of what happened here. Ive enjoyed it. And its kind of weird because the fact of the matter is i was in the navy and i was involved in riverine warfare. So its kind of strange in that aspect. I wanted to do it because its part of the experience here and black men were sailors here and they fought here. So i feel like im just doing my part in telling that story. You know its nice to change up. This right here is regular, but the sailor suits cool too. Thank you. Yes, sir. One aspect of being a historian is gathering primary source material and rendering an interpretation. And each of you to give the interpretations you do, must have done a significant amount of research. Can you each describe what youve done and what youve looked at and what youve tried to continue to look at to render your interpretations . Well, i can answer that here because im from around here. Historical interpretation can take a lot of different roads. And im not a scholar and i dont consider myself a historian by any stretch of the imagination. I just enjoy history because its there. Its there in front of me every day. I recall a time years ago i bought a book on the battle of nashville. Complete with historical markers and designations. And i think it was one of my days off from the fire department, instead of just going home and doing what i normally do i got in the car gassed it up and i went all over town and went all to the markers, right . Then i just picked up books and videos and read and, you know, meditated and went to where they were and just to be on that spot kind of bring something out, you know. I look at the aspect of both sides. You know, its not just the federal side or union side. Its what the confederates went through. Im familiar with what happened down here in franklin. I had to learn my way through that years ago. And i still find it fascinating. Battle of nashville, spring hill. The river warfare on the cumberland. Theres so much here that i think a lot of people take makes a difference when you go there and you take your book with you, which ive done. Eyewitness accounts different battles. And im walking and im really learning what im seeing. I know what happened there. Okay . The bat of gettysburg. I took my wife to gettysburg. Ive been there several times and several events. But to walk across the field from Seminary Ridge during pickets charge and then stop and knowing that exact spot what occurred all of the way across to the other side, i had the profound experience of going to charleston south carolina, with my friend norm here, and he and i were at Morris Island where our parent regiment, 54th massachusetts, attacked ft. Wagner, which is an experience in itself. Brother norm can attest to it. And to be there and what they had to endure, you didnt have to go very far. So physically experiencing it and research, it all ties in together. And you get a level of respect and knowledge that you just cant get anywhere else. I mean, theres you know thats my little wheel to it. For me i take the more scholar approach because i cant travel as much though i would love to. And its research. Im grabbing books. Im looking at narratives. Im looking at the footnotes in a lot of the scholarship and then going back to trying to find where that source was. And if i cant physically get there, find somebody who has access to j. Store and seeing if they cant get it for me. But i have just a ton of research that i have to go through and figure out, you know, all right if im looking at a particular area, then let me find things on that area. If im looking at, you know, somebodys asking a generalization, i dont like generalizations too much because every experience was different but let me grab a couple of sources and just kind of comprise a portrait for them. So i rely heavily on scholarship and materials. And thats just because i wish i could, you know, take that information and then have that physical experience and going to some of these sites and looking at the quarters and looking at the house and looking at the grounds and understanding the layout of the land. But since i cant to that, google earth is my friend and taking what great historians have written before and making sure that you know, somebody asks a question i can take their work which might be very academic and relate it to a lay person who just wants to know so what exactly happened and why. So thats my approach. As a public historian i like taking the academic side and then relating it to the public and you do that by understanding the scholarship and research and then presenting it in a way that makes sense. Not to say that academics dont make sense. You do. You are all lovely people and i cant do anything for you. You know how some of you write. Its for each other. I would be remiss if i didnt add one thing sir. Experiencing a knowledge and sharing of information, that plays heavily with what we do as a group because you know i am not the only person you know that has a, quote unquote, wealth of information. Its shared equally amongst my friends and comrades and our group. And they bring a lot to the table with information. And they share it with the rest of us, from places theyve been or places weve gone together as a group. So we have our meetings and i wouldnt call it a study group but we bring things to our meetings that would be of interest to everyone. So everybody gets that same piece of knowledge that maybe they didnt have before. And thats one thing i like about the 13th United States color colored troops because like i said in my little talk we dont just run around and shoot and march. We bring things to our meetings that folks can share and talk and discuss over. And maybe take some away with. Your welcome youre welcome. Theres a person over here and then well come back over here. Go ahead. Sir, since its veterans day week. Thanks for being a vet. We all appreciate that. My question, i guess, is from what ive learned the United States navy was much more receptive to having black troops before the army. In your research did you ever encounter anything that showed that there were also black troops in the Confederate Navy . I would say youre speaking of black sailors if you will . Yes. Yes, sir, there were. Their primary job was more like menial, lower task if you will coal stokers down in the engine room. And im sure they had cannoneers when they went to battle stations but their primary job probably was coal stokers in the Confederate Navy and if they were from an area where the navy was stationed or situated, they were more likely familiar with the area waterways. They probably were used as guides and what have you, guides quartermasters, you know. They could navigate certain areas that werent known to the federal navy. Of course, that happened on both sides. And the real irony of it is the federal navy wasnt segregated. The army was. The federal navy was integrated because of the type of duty, the conditions. The truth of the matter is there were a lot of africanamerican men in the navy that had prior sailing experience. They could have been freed men from up north mass marks new york, whatever. They could have been working on whaler or some kind of oceangoing vessel or they could have lived in canada or somewhere free and took their experience applying the waterways of st. Lawrence or up in michigan or anywhere like that and joined the navy. The conditions were not that great aboard ship. Confinement, the combat was rough rough rough. The enclosures your sleeping quarters. Pretty much everybody was on top of everybody. The truth of the matter is there was a lot of white guys that just wasnt going to handle that, okay . I mean, it was something they just didnt want anything to do with, except like your professional type sailors, you know. But your average man. There was a period of time in the federal navy was the army were manning ive are boatriver boats and gunboat, particularly on the mississippi river. There was kind of like the first introduction of a riverine type warfare because they were using ves sals contracted to the navy but they were putting soldiers on them with sea experience. It was kind of rough on them. You know, they couldnt handle it. But there were a lot of reasons why a lot of blacks chose the navy over the army. But primarily i would say its previous experience. Thank you. Sir . Well, i ask answer both his question and that one up there or one there. The American Navy as a veteran navy veteran, by the way the war before yours, the American Navy has been integrated since the revolution. But and my question for you is with your group are there connections to other groups around the country . Is there a National Organization of groups like yours . Yes, sir. I want to clarify one thing though. Yes, the navy was integrated. It was integrated up until the spanishamerican war. When certain rates were closed down to blacks that previously had promotional opportunities. Quartermasters gunners mates. After spanishamerican war a lot of black sailors were relegated to commissary and stewards duty, messmen. That went all of the way up to the outbreak of the korean war or just after the korean war, through world war ii. Majority of black men that were assigned to the fleet were stewards and cooks. They served in the offices quarters and they cleaned the officers quarters and washed dishes. They did it on every particular ship in the fleet, submarine. They had a battle station but they couldnt go any higher than mess cook. And i think the last time they could do anything in the way of promotion was the american civil war. How ironic. But we have a National Organization of United States colored troops reenacters. I would say its nationwide, wouldnt you say . Covers a lot of states. There are a lot of different africanamerican civil war units that we participated with. I had the honor a month and a half ago of participating in a battle reenactment to where my ancestor had actually fought. He won the medal of honor at a place called new market heights. It was in the richmond campaign, 1864. And we had near 100 guys show up from different units like ours and it was a great time. It was a great time and a great experience. And i can safely say that when we take the field, we try to honor those men and what they did in a good way. And ive always had good experiences in the field but that was particularly special. So were a small were like i look at black reenactors as like the navy s. E. A. Ls of the civil war. Yes. Very much so. Weve got a big, big, big navy but we got very, very few black s. E. A. L. S. Le probably 3 or 400 maybe out of all the hundreds of thousands guys that do this and enjoy the history. And its worldwide. Its not just nationwide. Ive met guys from ireland and germany, canada. And they provide a wealth of knowledge and they enjoy it. Weve even got one reenactor in hawaii by himself. Hey, hes having fun. Im happy for him. But,