Transcripts For CSPAN3 Taylor 20240704

What a great conversation. As i said, could go on for hours. The book is speaking of all female. I hope you all have a copy. You get copies. Its a great gift for all sorts of people. And don, ill be happy. Sign up here at the table. We cant thank you enough for coming. Thank you for coming. Thank you. Thank you for running the best best indie bookstore ever. Oh, thank you. Thank you guys soreal thrilled r back this evening along with her coauthor, jerry jerry gray as. They share their thoughts and their insights of their book unwavering. Tonights moderator is mr. Nelson. Mr. Nelson is an accomplished author. Dean writes for the new york times, boston globe, san diego magazine, christianity, sojourners and several national publications. He has won several awards the society of professional journalists, for his reporting and has written or cowritten books. Please join me in welcoming dean nelson dean nelson. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you, dave, and welcome to you three. Oh, gosh, this is such a thrill to get to talk with the three of you. And welcome to to all of you who are here to to hear about this. Pat, were going to get to you so, you know, sit just for a minute here, but i want to think, judy silverstein, great youre a former reporter. Youve worked in coast guard Third Generation military. This is you. You really know what youre talking about in this book, or at least that thats the sense i got from taylor baldwin, kaelin, youre also Third Generation in your family as a naval officer. Youve written extensively about prisoners war issues. And you grew up in coronado. Welcome home. Yeah, this is awesome being here. And pat. Oh, my gosh. What a pleasure to meet you. Pat burns, one of the people that book focuses on youve lived many years in limbo, not knowing whether your husband alive or not and story in this book is just so compelling. But you also have this other life. You were a flight attendant. You were one of the first people in california to be a Nurse Practitioner in that first cohort, a humanitarian in japan. And here, pat its a its an honor to meet you and have you here. This is this a cute picture of pat and her nursing graduation, which we had to share with you all 91 years. Well, youre going to need the microphone. If youre going to make these side comments, youre going to to have them amplified. So 90 watt. That was not 91 years ago. That was that 93. Yeah. Oh boy. Is it going to be fun. Taylor and judy, one of the strengths of, this amazing book, is that you do take the issue of and people missing in action. And it is it it doesnt become an issue anymore. You humanize this through the through the families of the p. O. W. And the mias you got inside these different peoples heads and and got into their motives, got into their hearts and they were thinking that must ive written some stuff too that must taken some extraordinary research. Seven years as i recall i dont care who answers this, but jump in. Well, my daughter was two when i started this book and shes now ten. So theres actually eight years. Wow, wow, wow. Yes. And heres a nice picture of. Pats oh, there she is. Waiting. And there she is at the mailbox and. Why dont we stop that . There, there she with her two daughters. This is a portrait that was painted. And actually, of her two daughters, who were both here and was actually put on a postage stamp. So maybe we stop there because theres some other pictures that well talk about. Sure. But but to me about the research and the eight years of your your opening boxes and and and interviews and all of that. So i had written two other books about our nations, and it developed a number of relationships with a lot of the men and their families. So i did have a a of research to start with, but when we started out on this journey eight years ago, captain stratton had called me. Hes one of the famous former p. O. W. Many of you probably know of him or know, and he you know, there really needs to be book written about these women because been so much written about us. But little less about about our wives and the epic homefront battle that they waged. So, yes, we traveled the country and went research institutions, all over the country, whether it was the nixon library, the reagan library, the hoover institution, texas tech, national archives, navy archives, swarthmore colleges piece collection. And then we went to visit the women in their homes and went into the basements and the attics and dug through their papers and them and scanned them and digitized and mined them. Judy, how how open these women to talk to about this. What this woman, eight years ago i was on coronado. My husband had a conference here and taylor said, why dont stop by and talk to pat and see how you like her . Well, we hit it off immediately. Talked about japan. Japan, food architecture could not get her to share a tidbit. She was fort knox. And so thought, okay so. Tonight, were going to finally unlock is that is that the goal . I think we just worked hard to it. She was sizing me up. Hmm. This was a story that had was tinged with sadness and memories that had been locked away long time and. One of her daughters said to me recently, shes you things she hasnt told us. And actually, tonight you tell me a few things had not heard yet. So this is what we did. This was the process with woman where we had to and sometimes on a phone we were teaching how to be recorded. It has become cathartic. When i to judy at least seven years twice every month and for me to i mean honestly this was a side of the war that i never a front row seat to before and we i have to say are honored to share that with the public because it reminds you and you know this as a reporter, dean, that there are always many facets to any story, but we get very locked into. Our own conception and interpretation and. Pat kept stretching my imagination did many of the woman pat would tell me about something that happened. They flew to paris and somebody else would say, well, thats a little different. And then what was your perception . Then we went to the some of the children who are adults and said, what is your perception . So the process was a little messy as it is and something this sprawling, but it was very instructive along the way. Gee, we have to dig a little. Was there that kind of a at that time were the colors phones true to what memory is . And honestly, it was about building trust. Difficult memories and memories that people become very stoic about safe keeping and also matching it with the body of research. We had was tough. Well, and was what was really fascinating and this is kind of the through point throughout the entire book is that these women became activists and and you called early in the book accident all activists so why accidental taylor well, because none of them signed up for the plight that they found themselves in in the midsixties and you have to remember that the early sixties, when this war started culturally, life was much more like the women still wore white gloves when they went and went driving, they really didnt travel by themselves. They didnt go out to dinner by themselves. Most of them didnt work after they got married. They certainly didnt work after. They had children in many. They got fired after they had children from. Their jobs, they had a few jobs of careers available to them, but not many and they might able to access the Birth Control pill. But some doctors wouldnt prescribe it to single women. And if they were married, doctors would require them to get husbands permission to get birth. The Birth Control pill, military wives had even more restrictions placed on them. They had to support their career and if they didnt do so publicly, there were repercussions for their husbands they were their husbands. They were expected to entertain a lot and they were expected to be very patient. And so when men started disappearing in vietnam in 19 fall of 1964 was the first one. The military was unprepared for how to handle it. The told them to keep quiet because speaking out would hamper negotiations and it might harm the men in captivity. And so they were told to keep quiet and they did initially but after a few years, they decided that the governments policy was not working and they became what we call active acts, accidental activists. Pat, you want to get in here . Go ahead. Ive got a question for you, but want to hear what you have to say. You know, taylor, this was one group, no one ever wanted to join. Youre exactly right. Right. So before i get to you, pat, judy, there was this was a sense, though, that if youre going be an activist, if youre going to work on behalf of your husband, you had to do it in a respectful manner. Right. That was that was the expected portion, correct . Thats correct. And taylor painted a great portrait of what that look like, but also that america was very quickly. So culturally we were steeped in the fifties as she. But, you know, every part our society was changing by 64 Race Relations were heating up in america. The shows on tv were changing flipper was big disneys wide world of color. Lassie course hogans heroes, which was really talking about a war that had happened a long time previously, kennedy had been shot most americans had been surveyed by a harris and they were told that what it revealed was that agreed with jfks premise that we will spare no effort to liberate liberty. So with as a backdrop, lbj started thinking about whats going on in vietnam, geopolitics are heating up. Most people dont know much about. Vietnam they dont understand. Its and history they understand the long war with the french and many didnt know about it. And besides we were a force to be reckoned as a military power. How could it take to subdue country the size of vietnam . So with that going on lbj escalated the war and instead of one or two pilots missing now there were and americas was changing on every front. In fact, i was very it was mostly a volunteer military that time but i was very surprised to see to read that draft cards were being burned back in 64. So things were happening faster right then. I remembered myself. Right, right. Are you going to add something here before i get to pat taylor now . Okay. Okay so so, pat, youre youre in this culture of theres an expectation portion of Compliance Force and being docile and behaving thats that, you know, keep quiet is was kind of the mantra fact you know theres a handbook of how women should be should not be too public in their in in how they about things. And theres this line from this book that i just thought was amazing. The navy doesnt particularly care for a who is to obviously carrying her load it says. Yeah but for you keeping quiet became unbearable. Was there a moment that you went that the needle moved from from being quiet and respectful into becoming a more outspoken and a little more of an activist . There was get that microphone close to you. We want to hear every word. Yeah. Yes, it came a moment watching tv after i had returned from japan when when the politicians were talking, the crowds were yelling all kinds of, things like murders, etc. , about the war in vietnam. I couldnt take it anymore. I got mad and i decided. I had to do something myself because nobody else was. So i looked for somebody. Who was in the same spot i was and i found civil stockdale here in coronado and i came down to visit with her there. She. To see her and talk to her and find out where we were and what we were doing. And thats. Was a great experience. I had that. Thats what moved you into we got to take matters into our own hands. You actually went to paris. You said you and the others to meet with North Vietnamese. We did we have a picture of that. I would love to. Oh, boy. Lets see if can find that picture of her in. Well, this is. Yes. More lets lets there is. Thats right thats pat on the far right standing to sipple stockdale. So what did you hope to accomplish when you met with the North Vietnamese in paris paris . What accomplished we actually face them and we told them how we felt and they were not abiding by human dignity, respect human beings and then on they too told us all kinds of different stories that our men were, of course, baby killers. Uh, monsters and etc. So it was a very tedious meeting for me because i know that as those things were true, but im guessing it also amped up your desire. We, we got to do something when . After that meeting, im guessing it probably motivated you further, is that correct . Yes. The civil and i were talking we ended up talking about going to washington dc and meeting with the congressmen and i her what i was going to do and i went off and did it and i met with the congressmen, seen there was the first man up for congressman that really took an interest and he was from alabama. If you go back to slides to see her with, i dont know whether congressman sir dixon or republic. There he is right there, a democrat from mississippi no alabama. Alabama. But theres an interesting side when she is walking the halls of congress, she goes to visit a senators aide who is takes a meeting with her when the senator is out of town and shes pressing him for information and for him to make some noise on the floor of congress. Instead, he presses her for a date. So she was like, yeah, pat, i you know, i read that about that in this book. And and i mean, we we of laugh now, but im where did you just have this feeling of seriously i am did i get my mike up there i did. How did how in the world did you did you even fathom that this was happening . Oh, i stood up and went around the table. Is this i mean, literally, this guy was pursuing you around the table chasing her . The table. Okay. But but this i mean, you you wanted you wanted to be taken seriously. Absolutely. Thats what i was there. And youre being pursued sexually sexually. What do what is what did the young people say . Now, youve been hit on. You were getting hit. You know. Right. And he said her, he said, come on, im just talking about dinner. After all, you must be lonely. Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. So with all of the things you were dealing with, with not knowing about whether your husband was alive or dead, whether it was a prisoner or you didnt know anything, and then you still have to deal with this. Did you just feel like why . Why what . What is this world . What is going on in this world . I mean, what was going through your head . Well, what whats through my head is this is something i have to do i have to let people know whats going on. And i needed to speak to these people to the way their diplomats, ambassadors, whoever i had to speak to. And it started with the trip to paris. Well, it started with being on capitol hill in july of 69 and then paris in, september of 69. And then the next picture youll see she got to meet with nixon in december of 69. Bush so the next picture whats interesting is that pat also had to deal as many of the wives did with bankers i them suspiciously when they tried cash their husbands paychecks if they got a paycheck. So you know youre supposed to have your husband in tow. Well, i dont know where he is. Well, write him a letter. So this is i dont want to underplay at all because these are ladies that laid the groundwork for, many of us, and not just for women, for military families in, a predicament that has never been experienced before to have to scratch and, claw their way, to have basic rights and basic common decency toward the situation. What did they, the ladies, to do . They needed money to clothe and feed their families. They were assuming roles as heads of household when didnt have a leg, a leg to stand on. Many of these women had powers of attorney that had long expired because their husbands deployments were supposed to be shorter and knew how to deal with this. And today, when military families deploy, theres more prep oration, theres more community action, theres something called an ombudsman or a liaison between the unit, the military unit and the family and they have this. So thank. Yeah. And pat, you wrote you wrote out your husband your missing husband. You wrote him every week. I did get that mike up there and did what would you tell him in those letters i wrote about the children . First of all, that was the most important thing that he would know know. I dearly the men. And so i love to love stories. Yeah in in our but the fact that you writing letters meant you a hope that he still alive christine i did that. Yeah please the other thing that i remember early on was pat made a comment about cartoons and i didnt know where we were going. And she said you dont know what its like. The word pow in the bubble to her meant p. O. W. And was very painful. Like a batman comic. It would say pow, pow or pow. Yeah. And and it was painful. And it really my eyes to something that seems innocuous to one of us is could be very painful. Another one of us and there was again no system for understand adding the stress and the burden that military families carry. So so let me, judy and taylor, let me ask you question. You both come of military culture. How was it for you to see examples of was being said publicly by our government then you seeing that that really the case. I mean it could the gulf of tonkin it could be the conditions of the p. O. W. Is it could be the uss you. You seeing dissonance here. But coming from the cultures that you grew up in, how was that for you . It wasnt that for me. I mean, we all know that watergate kind of destroyed Americans Trust and confidence in our government. And i had a healthy skepticism before for the government, even though i did serve in the military. And i am, i believe, a strong a strong patriot. But you have to, in the governments defense, while they appeared very tone deaf to these women and, very uncaring, the cold war had produced several enemy captives throughout the fifties. Gary powers is an example who was shot behind enemy lines. And as you to plane in 1960 and the government had the past during the cold war used backchannel diplomacy secure a fairly Quick Release when enemy captives were taken and so in their defense they felt that that tactic would work for the and when we had a handful of them in 1965 they continued to that that tactic and frankly who in 1965 thought the war would last as long as did so it only became clear a year or two later when we had hundreds of p. O. W. S and many more missing men that that tactic was an abject and it took women. Unfortunately it took the women and the families to put the pressure on to make the government change policy. But they did it effectively and they did it persistent. Lee relentlessly but polite. And theres theres some elegance, all of that. And it wasnt hard for me either. I think both of us have worked in Public Affairs in the military and particularly me in the coast guard. The policy was always tell it, tell it. Now, and you make look good. Yeah, but yeah, but i think that, you know, what was interesting about vietnam, the whole country was changing at the same time in different different communities within. And i think that the stayed the course in very focused way even though they started out individually, you know, and context matters i think we know this from being journalists that you have to remember when you read something, it may be shocking. Now but it wasnt at the time because of the mores and the rules we were living under. Did agree. I agree. So so pat, you didnt know you spent years not knowing if you were a wife or a widow. How do you navigate that. Duty . Did that make up . I can hear every word, judy, go get me on this one. I did it one foot at a time. And every day was hard and hard. Many of you know, all things that go on in your life after, you know, its 57 years since art was shot and just to think that. All the birthdays, all those all the fathers staged, all the mothers days, all these days, each one of them to us is a real hurt. And yet we dont say anything or anything because. It hurts the rest of the family, too i remember. You always remember those guys guys, but im still wondering in the you wake up, youve youve got to do it all over again. You i just cant imagine i cant that that state of not knowing and i realize you say put one foot in front of the other but did you have any did you have a Community Around you did you ever did you have friends . Had im just i want you to keep telling me how you did this when the league started. We all found each other different ways. The league of wives. Right . Right. And that was a big help, because each one of us did whatever we were doing, but we did it together, and it made it a little easier to have somebody to talk to sometimes. And youre not a wife. I found it very hard to talk people these days because. Theres so much controversy going on and chaos that really cant talk to people because. You dont know where you stand and dont know where they stand. So this was the same type of feeling, a limbo. I think one of the most difficult times through the book that i that i recall that in addition to the limbo for you pat was when you sat down with an antiwar activist who had gone to North Vietnam and was very much was very public in her stance against our involvement in vietnam. And you to her about status of your husband. Can you recall that conversation for us . I can. I was here in san diego. My husbands one of his best friends when he was growing up. Bob sullivan, a local lawyer here, said he would go with me to meet with madeleine. Was her name . Yes. Yes. Shes the wife of a hold up make up pat. Okay a berkeley music professor . Yes. Of a professor at berkeley. And so. We were able to get in touch with her and she said she would see us. So we went up to San Francisco and. It was christmastime, christmas time. There was and we sat. In the lobby and waited for to come. And she came in late, late. But that, you know, that doesnt matter. She. She was very nervous about it meeting with me. Uh, uh, she and she wanted to. She didnt want to talk really she wanted to show the names of various people who were, uh, did that she had heard from the North Vietnamese and that she had a list of people who had been killed. Uh huh. And was your husbands was arts name that my husbands name was not on there. But she said she knew he was dead. So that didnt very well. Thats what you said to her. I said i could not understand how. She could talk to me way and not had proof of what she was saying and and the north and madeleine duclos told her i have no reason to doubt the North Vietnamese because they had been such a Truth Tellers all along, right . Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah oh, my goodness. So did that did that just set you further into some sort of despair . The the brutality of the vietnamese been shown so much. Wed seen the march we march the hanoi march, july of 1966, when 52 americans were shackled together, paraded down the streets of hanoi and were pelted and brutalized on National International television. It was the footage was aired around the world and it struck terror into the hearts of the families here who felt for sure their men were going to be put on trial for war crimes. The men were bloodied and, beaten, and they the families started to hear that they would be threatened with trials for war. And it it was not getting the attention of everyone because it didnt at the same time, in us. But it really struck fear, as taylor said, in the hearts of the families. Very much so. And you watched that on tv . I was living in japan at that particular time. And we did we were able to see some of the footage that some of the asian journalists had captured hanoi. And they been there. And we were able to see some of it, and pap was able to identify some of the men that were husband but but you were looking for art and he was not in that. He was not in that video. No, he was in that. In fact, he was still flying at that time. Yes. He wasnt shot down till november 66. Okay. It however. Yeah, yeah. Okay so taylor and judy, youve got line in your book where you say while their husbands brothers and fathers waged their battle against a foreign enemy family, members have been pursuing lonely fight against their own government, against ignorance, apathy and, bureaucracy. Thats sort of the heart of the book, wouldnt you say . It is absolutely. So. I mean, was. I dont know that the rest us knew that that was going on at the time they really did wage a homefront battle and i think recognizing that changed me because its as if i realized there were two battles going on, simultaneous mostly, and they were separate and not really related in some way because the men had to count on the families for them and hoped it would happen and went to great. As we say in the book, to ensure that happened. But the women had to plow on on their own and they were developing and families their own battle scars both chased around a desk or being denied the opportunity. Talk to a diplomat or, a congressman or even someone in their community. They had to endure an uncertain empathetic audiences who pelted of the women with their lunches because they represented the war. But they plowed on. They pressed on and ensured that their objectives were met just as the battlefield was doing the same thing with troops. Yeah. And pat, its almost it just kept keeps piling on as. I as i was reading this book, the wives sometimes shunned seen as kind of bad luck to nobody wanted to be around people whose husbands were missing or who were p. O. W. Did you feel that too . Absolutely. I felt it. And, you know, this book describes some of this. Im not the only one. And this is why i described this book as dark. And its dark because it is lot of sad things. And yet its true. And you read about what happened to some of the and but i worked judy to tell us about how. It really its. Its for real and its sad. But we made through. But you did more than make it through you you just kind of you became a force and people had to take you seriously and in many different tried to use their association with you and and and and get their own kind Political Capital by starting to align with you because you started getting some traction but you didnt just make it you actually changed by the way. You by the way you acted and and persevered. Its its quite impressive. Yeah. Well, yes, really. I didnt really realize this until actually dealing with the book and talking about it with. People, they really felt that we did something of course, we always talk about. Yes, theres a flag the prisoner of war flags flies on every Federal Building post throughout the country but and you that waving and you can remember but theres people that yeah in theres a great line from the book that where one of the diplomats says the diplomat didnt make all this happen as far as getting p. O. W. S and the remains of those missing in action finally turned over the diplomat. That didnt make this happen. The families did this this comes from washington thats absolutely true. You have to remember before the vietnam war, we really just left our missing missing. We have 72,000 missing men from world war two. We have more than 7000 missing from the korean war. And in previous wars, the military just unilateral, declared all missing men dead. They didnt come. The globe looking for remains as they do now only since vietnam war have we had a dedicated Government Agency that comes the globe year round looking for the remains from all wars only since the vietnam war. Do we expend tremendous resources to attempt to rescue just one prisoner of war in the term no one left behind didnt come. People like pat, it wasnt really upheld. Yeah, until the vietnam war. Right. And its all because of the work that these women set in motion during the vietnam war. They actually changed policy and changed our culture. So. So when you finally got the call, i think you were a nurse at a school by this time. You got the call several years later, after art had gone missing. That confirmed his remains been identified. Was that cathartic experience . Was that can you walk us through that day . Can you hold your microphone . Okay. I had a student with me and the secretary of. The school came very into the office, said washington was department of defense. Well id had other calls from department of defense, so i wasnt really not expecting something. But when i picked up the phone, they told me that the the remains of my husband were had been found and they were. Being sent back from vietnam. And it. What happened in your heart and in your head when you heard that . Well, the word that you used. Well, was it cathartic and . No, it wasnt cathartic because it wouldnt you know for sure is part of you that you will never, ever end. And in your life. And thats the way i felt. So you werent a big fan of the word closure . Dont like that word at all. Yknow. Because i as i said, think this feeling that i have is that beginning of the end. Its just there and it will go on my lifetime to give some context. In 1977, which is when pat received word that husbands remains were being returned, how many years after he had been shot down . 11. 11 years. 11 years. Knowing that Carter Administration had a few days before softened their stance on vietnams pursue route of becoming a member of the united nations. The united had vetoed their their vote in the past. But in 1977 they softened their stance and they just from voting. And a few days later vietnam announced that were going to repatriate a few dozen remains. So it was clear that they had been warehousing these remains was a very clear and some people say that they still have remains warehoused. I dont have answer to that. But that gives you a little bit of background. The vietnamese could have given her an answer many, many years before. Well, so, judy and taylor did this book, working on this book, did this book change anything . And you this you know, this all happened a long, long time ago. So for you, the writers to to dig back into this, anything anything different a result of your doing this. Yeah. For me, you know, as a veteran, you have one feeling as a writer, youre kind of i always like to say we, experienced it multiple times. We watch it, we observe it, we think about it, and then we write about it and as an american, there are some values embedded in this whole story and the collective they are that dont tolerate missing americans. We can injury and fatality but not leaving people behind. And that got me thinking about what is legacy of these women and these families who suffered greatly. Was it worth it . And i think it is and heres why they remind us through enshrining leave no man behind concept that for those who pay the sacrifice the ultimate sacrifice never and remembering to understand and share stories and appreciate them is very is critical an essential american component and storytelling informs us and it heals and it guides and they ensured that we did that. And secondarily what they created not only in ensuring that we fight our wars in ways that we avoid having im sorry, missing people and p. O. W. S missing men, missing women. It also ensured that families would be taken care of, but they did it in a way that didnt harm policy. They didnt intrude. They just stayed to their values. And i think what really strikes me about the women and the families is how true to their values they stayed no matter what was going on around them. America had lots of noise and politics changing and cultural shifts and new ideas going on. You know, and i talked about how people this is the most divisive time. But the sixties were pretty divisive and they stayed true. And that is an amazing, inspirational story. I think what changed me was learning what tremendous impact on history these this small group of women had. Yeah, were looking at 50 years ago. Yeah. You know and and and saying something happened during that era that that were all still kind of benefiting from they they made p. O. W. Is strategic have Strategic Value which they never did previous wars and they made the fate of missing men an absolute priority where lengths that we will go to rescue just one captive person whether it is scott in bosnia in 1994 Jessica Lynch in iraq in 2003, Bowe Bergdahl in afghanistan in 2009. And yes, brittney griner, a basketball player, russia last year we expend extraordinary resources to retrieve just one captive or one missing man. And that is because of the work that these women, a handful of women started in the 1960s, impressive. So so pat, do have any advice for the u. S. Military as to as as to. Yeah, id the laughter from you. I mean do you have any advice for them and how how they should be more families or could be more family supportive. Well i get that make you know, i just. About three weeks ago attended a military ball that Coronado Chamber commerce puts on for the military every year with various different scholarships set for two people who have done wonderful things or very Little Things in fact, but made a in our world, in the military. And i them i, i sat at a table with the there was a young young man, a young woman who had four children. They were both had been in the military and both of them, one was still in the military and her husband was. And he he had he had started a fund to help the a group of young men who had difficulty in. And with abuse of alcohol and he was working with them and his wife was working separately but working with a some young women in her her her. Unit squadron. Sure so so that kind of support youre saying is is yes part part of what could be done absolutely thats what theyre doing. So what so what advice do you have for families who have members, their family who are deployed right now, do you have any advice for for them . Thats a hard thing. Im not asking an easy questions. I know. I know that. Stand beside them all the way. You know, if they make decisions that you dont like, you like you want to stay in the service or they dont want to stay in the service, you have to respect that. And go along with them, not necessarily quietly. Not quietly, right. You learned that lesson, didnt you . So so taylor and judy, about you, do you have advice that youve gone through all of these and and probably thousands documents and hundreds pages that you didnt include do . You had. Do you have advice . I want to ask you the same question. I just ask pat. Do you have advice for the military and how they could be maybe more family supportive . Well, i think theyve come a long way. Its certainly not perfect. I mean, im not a military spouse. I grew in a military family. I served in military. But it was a long time ago. But i have seen how the way the military has supported families has changed significantly and actually one of the characters in our book made a contribution towards that. Alice captain strattons wife, who got her activism up elbow grease when she a p. O. W. , a wife, became the first Deputy Assistant secretary. The navy for Family Matters in 85, or her husband, said, know, i went to bed one night, woke up the next, and my wife outranked me by three three ranks. I hate it when that happens. Yeah. I mean, she was responsible for formulating a family policy in the 1980s at a time when the military was struggling with retention and she convinced them they needed to Pay Attention to issues of child care and Single Parents and housing and Family Service centers and leave. Family leave. Exactly. So imagine that she on the receiving end of virtually no support and she becomes responsible for formulating support for military in the 1980s. So i think the military has come a long way, judy what advice would you give the. You know, i think taylors were absolutely right. Its come a long way and alice is someone to whom we owe a debt of gratitude. But we did a talk for the of a resilience which is connected to the 911 memorial and it is remarkable of all nonmilitary families went through exactly what pat and the other families went through. And so weve come a long way with the military but i think as humans, we have to try to understand what traumas people go through when the unexpected and the unimaginable happens and to be is to use pets phrase respectful and as we can we are so strong in our convictions in this country maybe world so that we really need to see each other. I think thats the only advice i could offer. What about advice to families who have members of their family deployed . Do you have any advice them now that youve gone this process of going through all of this work with the the people who were in vietnam . Well, i dont think i have to tell this to military spouses today, because they seem like a pretty boisterous bunch. But i you know, speak up. Yeah. You dont have to behave. You dont have to behave. Exactly. No. And they and stayed true to that message. I mean, i dont think i can cite too groups except maybe the suffragettes who did similar work where they didnt let anything derail them. You know, look pat around the desk know youre going to hear about my husband and going to get me an answer. Pat, im going to give you the final word. Do you have a final word for us today about your experience, about talking about it, about reading about it, seeing these pictures . Well, first of all, id like to my family. We would love to meet your family. Yes. My sister in law. Little brother, front row. So. So get a microphone in front of you there, pat. Tell us who youre introducing us. This is betty maxwell. Shes my sister in law. Welcome. Welcome. All right. That was brother and my daughters, missy and francis. All right. Thank you. Great to see you. Welcome, grandson and granddaughter. Granddaughter vanessa, over here. Grandson calling. And i do want to publicly thank these little ladies, for all those eight years of work on the book to tell the story, because i think its a story that needed to be told. We get all kinds of practical things and things all the time telling us things. But this was written into a story and it goes your heart. When i read the manuscript, first thing i said to the ladies, this a little dark, isnt it . Theres some light moments. Shes very shy. And and and but they told the story so that everybody can enjoy it. So i think youll enjoy reading these characters in this book. So thank you, ladies yeah, its a very compelling book. Thank you, taylor thank you. Thank you, pat. Thank you very much. Thank. Thank you very much