Transcripts For CSPAN3 Slavery And The Confederate Flag 20151019

Dedicated to the study and analysis of deeply rooted, protracted, violent social conflicts, often accompanied by severe violence. In addition to analysis, we also investigate, and some of us practice, the intervention that would allow us to mitigate, to interrupt cycles of violence. Courses we teach , some version of getting to the table, negotiations, and comparative peace processes. Those of us who have studied this often think about how we get to the negotiating table, how we do the treaty, how we do the ceasefire, but we also understand that a longterm goal of most peace processes is something we call reconciliation. We understand reconciliation is less of an endpoint, terminus, than it is a process. There are many examples that show us how difficult reconciliation as conceived of as an endpoint is. And often how violent conflicts, even a century ago, will cohere around symbols that remain with us and remain obstacles for reconciliation. Today we will be talking about one of those. This event is part of a series sponsored by the school for conflict analysis and resolution to discuss different themes on race and social justice in america. And the theme for this first event is the Confederate Flag, a legacy of slavery and the legacy of that primal violent event in our own history, the american civil war. Joining us as a robinson professor of history is professor spencer crew and professor rubenstein. Professor rubenstein will introduce professor crew. Professor rubenstein has served director and has published more than eight books on violence and responses to it. Professor rubenstein . [applause] professor rubenstein thank you all for being here. A pleasure to see you. A great pleasure to welcome spencer crew. Dr. Crew has worked in public history institutions for more than 25 years. He served as president of the National Underground Railroad Freedom center for six years, and worked at the smithsonian for 20 years. Nine of those years, he served as director of nmah. He sought to make history accessible to the public through innovative exhibitions and public programs. His most important exhibition was the field to factory, afroamerican migration, which generated a National Discussion about migration and race in creating historical exhibits. He also cocurated the american presidency, glorious burden, one of the smithsonians most popular exhibitions. The National Underground Railroad Freedom center attracted worldwide attention because of the quality of his presentations and his focus on race, interracial cooperation on issues of contemporary slavery. Spencer also informed me just today that he is consulting and also preparing one of the major exhibits at the new museum of African American history that you can see built almost entirely built now on the mall. He has published extensively in the areas of africanamerican and public history. I will not mention all of the books, but they include feel to , 1987 book, black life and in secondary cities, the american presidency, glorious burden, and unchained memories, reading from slave narratives, and the current publication is called slave culture, a documentary collection of the slave narratives from the federal writers project, something i think a lot of us would be interested in reading. We are very interested in hearing what spencer has to say about this important topic of the Confederate Flag and related issues. We are delighted that he is here and hope it will not be the last appearance here either. Thank you for being here, spencer. [applause] spencer crew thank you very much. Am i doing the wrong thing . There we go. Great. Thank you. Thank you all for coming this afternoon. I think what we want to focus on today is the whole controversy that has emerged around the Confederate Flag and it being flown in public spaces. There has been an uproar around the issue and a lot of debate and argument about whether a flag like this should be on official government grounds. From this, a lot of discussion and debate, we want to spend time talking about it. There seems to be clearly two different points of view about this issue of the Confederate Flag. Opponents to it feel that it is insulting and the display of it is meant to remind African Americans of their status as slaves in the history of this country, and indirectly in for the best in for and indirectly infer that they are inferior and therefore not worthy of full rights and citizenship. On the other side you have those that argue that that flying the flag is only a reference to the heritage and history of the south and that anyone suggesting that it has a racist over tone to it is missing the point. I think that we want to begin to better understand these disagreements and what is at the core of them to understand the nature of the discussions taking place. What has brought this to a highlight was the murder of individuals in charleston in june of this year. Out of that, a National Conversation arose around this question of how to look at the Confederate Flag, but also the symbolism of the south in terms of how they fought the war and the meaning of the war in terms of the history of this country. I think where we ought to start the conversation is the focus on that Confederate Flag. Understanding its history, understanding its application, and how we should look at it in terms of the history of that flag within the story of the south. First of all, it is really important to understand that the better battle flag was not the official flag of the confederacy. In reality, there was not any one flag that was representative of the south for the entire time. In fact, there were three different flags that stood out as the key ones that were referred to by the south. The first one had a very strong resemblance to the original flag of the United States right after the american revolution. As you can see, it was red and white and blue, had to brought two broad red stripes, and one broad white stripe in the middle of it, and had a blue field in the upper corner with a circle of stars in the bluefield eventually representing the confederate states. As i said, it very much resembled the first flag created by this country. And the problem with it was that when the south took this flag onto the battlefield, it was confusing for the generals watching the battles taking place as to who was who, and because of that there was an argument that Something Different had to be created to allow for the distinguishing of these issues. A Second National flag was created by the confederacy which looked like this. This was mainly white, as you can see, with stars and bars in the upper lefthand corner, but the problem is that it looked too much like a flag of truce, so people see all the white and thank you are giving up. So this did not work very well either. After this, there was the third try. The third flag as you can see , here, is different, mainly white, one red vertical stripe, so the sense of the flag of truce is taken away, and it has the stars and bars in the lefthand corner of the flag. As you can see, none of these flags are the same as the traditional Confederate Flag we see flying so much around the country these days. This one has a resemblance, but is still not the traditional stars and bars. What was parallel to this was the flag used by the army of Northern Virginia under the leadership of robert e. Lee, this one. But it was not carried by all confederate units. Each state that had a unit often have their own flags, so this flag while it was used by the army of Northern Virginia because lee was the leader of the confederate troops, got a lot more currency, but was still not the official flag of the south. In many ways, it was the flag of Northern Virginia. It was created by one of lees generals by the name of pierre beauregard. He created this flag after the battle of bull run. The reason he did it was because of the confusion on the battlefield that i talked about before. For those of you who are younger, what you should know is there were no telephones and radios back in the day of the war. So as a general if youre trying to follow the battle and figure out where to move your troops, you did it by looking at the flags. Who is carrying the flag, where are my troops, how do i locate them. His argument was that the flags were so similar that it was confusing as to which troops were which, so he decided to come up with a new flag that was much clearer in terms of distinguishing confederate troops. It is known as the traditional stars and bars, a red background and a blue Saint Andrews cross with stars in it. The stars and bars as we know it today. What i am trying to get to with this is to understand that any argument put forth that these stars and bars represent the confederacy and its official flag is inaccurate, historically it is inaccurate. If you are from virginia, you can make an argument. For the confederacy it is really , not very accurate historically. We need to understand that history and put it into proper perspective. Now you could argue that it does represent an aspect of Southern Heritage and southern history, but then the question becomes what heritage and history does it represent . It gets us to the ageold question about what was the cause and the reason for the civil war. Some people argue that in fact slavery was the cause and the reason for putting forward the civil war. Others argued that it is not about slavery, about states rights about preserving the , heritage and culture of the south. I want to let you know upfront that my point of view is that in fact the civil war is a battle over slavery. It is a states rights issue, in since the states in the south dont want to lose slavery, so you make this argument about states rights, but what are the rights theyre trying to protect. You can look to the words of the individuals themselves from the south who wrote the documents of secession to see what they say about this to understand what their thinking is. Lets look at two of them for example. One would be the state of South Carolina, which is the first to secede, and then georgia, soon to follow. In its documents on secession, South Carolinas reason for leaving the union are clearcut. They say that a geographical line has been drawn across the union and all the states north of that line have united in the election of a man to the high office of president of the United States whose opinions and purposes are hostile to slavery. He is to be entrusted with the administration of the common government because he has declared that the government cannot endure permanently half slave and half free. The public mind must rest in the belief that slavery is in the course so clearly for South Carolina as it is making the decision to leave the union, what is motivating it is what they feel is going to be an attack of slavery and the loss of that economic engine. This is pushing them forward to secede. We can add to this the ordinances of secession put forward by georgia where they talk about slavery early on in the document. I can read parts of it for you. It says the people of georgia having dissolved their political connection with the government of the United States of america present to their confederates and the world the causes which have led to the separation. They present to the confederates in the world the causes that led to the separation. For the last 10 years, we have had numerous and serious causes and complaints against us bite slaveholdingn states who reference african slavery. They have endeavored to weaken our security, to disturb our domestic peace and tranquility and persistently refused to , comply with their express constitutional obligation to us in reference to that property, slaves. By the use of their power in the federal government have striven to deprive us of equal enjoyment in the territories of the republican. They are unhappy about the fact that there have been discussions about bringing slavery to an end. But also not allowing slavery to expand into new territories. Add mississippi and others. It is clear that slavery and the possible end of that institution is an important issue for them and pushes them to make the decision to secede. You can add to this the words of the president of the confederate states, jefferson davis, who also believed in the appropriateness of slavery. He argued it was condoning the the less he argued it was condoned in the bible and says african slavery , has existed in the United States has existed as it a moral, political, and social blessing. So for him, slavery is a key part of what they are trying to protect. By leaving the nation. What these words offer i think is a very strong case for slavery being a critical issue which motivated and caused Southern States to decide to secede from the union. So it is not surprising that this is the case, because slavery is in fact the Economic Foundation and engine of success for the south. The slaves provided free labor to harvest crops, plant crops, make sure they got to market. Slavery rapidly reduces labor costs associated with Agricultural Production in the south. Also, the south was prospering because the production of cotton by them was the highest level of production of cotton anyplace in the world. I like to tell people that to understand the importance of cotton in the south and the world, you can think of the south as the opec of cotton for the 19th century. They control the Cotton Market of the world, so this made them important for other nations, but it helps to drive the economy of the United States. To get a sense of it, if you were to combine all the businesses, banks, maritime activity, industrial activities of the United States during this time the value of all , those pieces of the economy do not equal the value of slaves in the south. So slaves and slavery are a critical part of the success of in need to be protected atey all costs. It is not just the plantation owners who are profiting. It spreads across the economy of the south. The means of production and labor are the foundation to these success. Important to keep in mind that as we tame out of the american revolution, that as the iuntry came together wanted to show you this to remind you of the importance of slavery to the south. At the top isuc taken from the graphic at the bottom. A 100 bill in confederate money. On the dollars, they highlighted the importance of slavery as a driver for the economy. Reinforcement of the importance of slavery to the economy and wellbeing. If you look back at the convention to write the again see thehe importance of slavery. South carolina and georgia, at the Constitution Convention in philadelphia demand that slavery protected. In particular, you cannot do anything to affect the slave sign or will he will not the documents. They drive in the idea of seeing slaves as three\five of a man. Consequence, they get the slave trade protected for 20 years and they get of their protected. It gave them more influence and power in the United States. For them, slavery has many impotent impacts in terms of their place and influence in the country. It explains why the election of lincoln felt threatening to them. If lincoln had any inclination itdo anything about slavery, could undermine their power, there are a economy, and date a different lifestyle and future for the south. About thethis story importance of slavery, we can see holes in the conversation representation of the south. That does not have much prominence in the United States during the last part of the 19th century and into the 20thcentury. In fact, robert a lee felt it was not a good idea to focus on to have the flag outbound. He felt it was important to move on and allow the nation to heal. When he died, he refused to have theny flag, particularly stars and bars flown at his funeral because he felt it would arouse hard feelings. As a consequence, the stars and bars is not seen very much in this country in the last 19th century and halfway into the 20th century. Resurgence of the stars and bars comes about in the 1940s. It emerges connected to the running for office of human. One the running for office of truman. Is concerned about human rights. He signs the law integrating the armed forces and he creates a commission to look into the inequality andl mistreatment. Out of that, he has a report issued to him in which he calls for changes and racial interaction in this nation. Is a plank keep its into the Democratic Party in 1948. This is a radical decision for a southerner. In a time when there are not a lot of people who agree with him that racial equality is the way to go. Causes a rift in the Democratic Party and many southerners resist his idea and bolt from the party. Theythey do in 1948, create a Splinter Group called the dixiecrats. They are determined to protect the southern way of life and protected from federal intervention. Raciale opposed to integration and want to preserve jim crow laws and White Supremacy. The supporters of the group took trol of several the several democratic parties and ran for office strom thurmond. Here, get right. They stoodurmond for racial integration and their theyt represented stood for racial segregation and the flag that represented them was the stars and bars. The idea that racial changes not a good thing for this nation. The flag continued to grow after this. Largely because of the rise of the modern Civil Rights Movement of the 1950s and 1960s. People using the stars and bars begin to show up at civil rights marches and activities where integration and segregation changed the laws and mores. The opposition was sometimes peaceful, but often violent. Essentially, these are people who decided they did not want change. They want the world to stay the same as it was before the civil war. They wanted the old ways of africanamerican subjugation and secondclass citizenship. Of stars andce bars becomes associated with White Supremacy and supervision of africanamerican rights. This is why it is hard for many people to accept the flag as not sinister into just an indication of Cultural Heritage and not more. Because in fact average shows up in these kind of settings, it is associated with those kind of people. The other reason there is an association is you can see it directly in when it is used by certain groups. Look at South Carolina, that terrible incident earlier this year. In South Carolina, the stars and bars that they wanted to have taken down from the state capital did not show up over the State Capitol until 1962. It was not in the 19th century, not in the 20th century, it was in 1962. The officials said they were doing it to celebrate the 100th anniversary of the civil war. Others suggested that was not the case. That what was happening was it was in opposition to strong efforts by civil rights activist for School Segregation in the state of South Carolina. It was a way of saying, were going to up his. Bars shows up 1962. I think what it points to is it was symbolizing the way things were before the civil war and in flying ite who were did not want things to change in this modern era. For African Americans, it said, this is talking about a heritage. Advancing the world that does not work for us. It is not the best of the United States, should a flag like this beyond governmentowned property . Individual, we cannot do much but as taxpayers, do we have to see this in our State Capitol on a regular basis . 1970is from 1962 until four, when they finally agree, after years of opposition, of boycotts by the end of late cp, by theauto workers naacp, by the auto workers union, who forced the state of South Carolina to move it next to a monument of a confederate soldier on the graves. It then raises the level of protest and anger about this inected to the shooting at emmanuel am church. Shooters image is most often shown with the stars and bars, i think it raises again, this flag, this representation of the south, is associated not with just heritage but with going back to a previous time to a belief of racial inferiority and racial supremacy and doing whatever is necessary to allow White Supremacy to stay in the war front. I think for africanamericans and for others around the country, that was the final straw. It said, in fact, this image representation does not stand for anything other than oprah russian and all of the values that are not core to what we stand for as a nation. It is what pushed the government the governor of South Carolina to remove the flag away monumentconfederate even, into the Historical Association of the city. It also prompted a larger conversation nationwide are around the Confederate Flag and whether or not south and what it stood for should be highlighted in key areas of american life. Here in virginia, there has been a push to rename jeff Stuart High School because of his role in the civil war and strong support of slavery. Maryland, there is a question about a Confederate Monument in the courthouse there. Arguments are remortgaging more across the country are in emerging more across the country. Thee is a question about mississippi flag with the stars and bars. You cannot control it in mississippi, but should the Nations Capital have something about that like that above it . The conversation is getting warmer and going to greater depths. It is to for the country to figure out what we stand for and how they want to be represented to the larger world, because of this continues to be a strong symbol for what we stand for, it might make others think our sense of tolerance, our argument about democracy, is hollow because we do not apply it to members of our own society. Major topic of a conversation and our country. Today i would like to see what kind of conversation we could have among ourselves. We will open up the floor to conversation. I have a couple comments, they will be short and then we will open up. But first, thank you. [applause] to say we would not be here today if it were not for two of our staff and friends. Cassie and claudine who cooked this up and organize it. So, thank you very much. [applause] a couple of quick comments. Now that we have a controversy as you brilliantly outlined, the question will arise for those of us in conflict analysis and resolution about, how do you approach this from a conflict resolution perspective. Who has beenknow very interested in this for a long time is our friend joe. Associate friend and consultant to of our school who is actually begun a project called northsouth reconciliation. He did this before the Confederate Flag controversy started, certainly before the shooting in charleston. On the theory that there was an unresolved conflict. Unresolvedensional conflict that he summarized by saying, the civil war is not yet ofr in the minds of lots people both north and south in he thought there needs to be a process by which people from the north and south get to talk about a number of issues, including what the civil war means to them, with the memory means to them, and how come there is still so much bad feeling and someone. And sell on. And so on. Start having that type of conversation, and this will be my only serious comment, it may be necessary to keep two things in mind. , when it thing is comes to ones own opinion about who is right and who is wrong in a controversy like this, i have spencer that to what says about the civil war being about slavery is true. I have no doubt that what he says about the Confederate Flag becoming a symbol of racial oppression and revival during a peer of desegregation the way it and i have no doubt the people who are trying to defend the continued flying of the flag are brownheaded. Although, i have to say, the question of how far you go in extricating the historical is oneof evil regimes that is complicated and troubling. I am sure you want to talk about that later, and we can talk about that later. The point i want to make is that from a conflict resolution point of view, it seems necessary not only to decide in ones own heart who was right and who is wrong in a particular conflict, but to put oneself imaginatively in the shoes of the ones you think are wrong. So, to try to be able to answer the question, what is driving them . It is going on with them . The danger that we take a purely moralistic is here and we say there is a good side and a bedside and we divide the world up to good guys and bad guys and that is the end of it. The problem is, it is very often not the end of it. , shall weery stubborn say . Stubborn thoughts, stubborn behaviors arise no matter how much you want to condemn them. No matter how condemn the ball they may be. The behaviors may continue to arise until we get a better idea systemically in the society is producing these thoughts and behaviors on the part of the people who are acting badly. Once he started to investigate that, we can discover once we investigate that, we can see people are seeking false solutions. If they are feeling excluded or humiliated, they can behave like this. They can behave resentfully. Crazyple are harboring fictitious ideas about racial superiority and racial inferiority, very often behind those crazy ideas are some serious insecurities and serious confusions which people are experiencing, sometimes for good reason. It reminds me of the debate we have to deal with over migration of around the world. European migration. What is with those poles and ands in tight antigary and hungry aryans. Muslim . So anti or are there other issues in place . Job insecurity, identity insecurity, a sense of National Humiliation for their historical. Raumas sometimes we forget, in the case to someivil war, that extent racism is a product of the defeat and humiliation of the south. It poses questions for us that are very difficult, but very important, which is, how can you disapprove of racist behavior, isn if it is nonviolent, it worth disapproving. How can you disapprove of it and stop it and still appreciate the int that the people engaging the behavior may have real grievances. Grievances they are not really ugly. There they are mistakenly acting out on the field of race in the rights. States lying about the civil war. Mistakenly acting out in part because they are not able to come to terms with what the real issues are that are making them so resentful and insecure. Conflict resolution point of view, we have our work cut out for us in northsouth reconciliation and what to do next. The floor is open. What do you think . [gavel] i completely agree with you. About multipleis meanings of a symbol. It is hard to find one symbol that has the same meaning for everyone. Meeting pply one meaning. It as collective between one group and another group. Thatssue is [indiscernible] if you help people provide , this is identitybuilding. [indiscernible] this genealogy of values, how it interplays. Him as amportant to that the history. I completely agree. [indiscernible] history of virginia, they toited childrens writers write a book. Children loved it. But people rejected it. One of the mothers who was a tory professor [indiscernible] some of them were so loyal to it has created a lot of problems. What happens, they just found a [indiscernible] lets close our eyes to what is happening. What is important is dialogue i do not want to [indiscernible] i think it is very important to do research. I did some interviews. Me, we still believe we [giggling] we still field this result. I think it is extremely important to start a dialogue and see if we presented a different issue and how we can address a grievance from both sides. Without drawing a moral line. What about diversity issues and Higher Education . To the extent you are aware, can you sketch the landscape of whether there are any pending legislative proposals . Has anyone talked about bands of the flag in terms of flying it in public spaces . The second related question is, a legislativeort solution to this problem as it relates to the flying of the flag and public spaces and Government Property . Prof. Crew i am not aware of any National Legislation. There are conversations going on in congress about the mississippi flag at the capitol building, but i am not aware of any National Legislation that says you cannot do this. Even if you do that, you can only say that about federal he, not state property. It is hard to have an acrossdeboard legislation to make things go away. When i support that . I would not want to see the flag flying over federal, public spaces. I think it is a question of what are all the citizens of this nation feeling about that. There are things we do not do because we think they are incorrect and we dont allow them to happen. Symbol of aome a negative part of what this country is doing. Feel right about legislation that says, you cannot do stars and bars on federal. Iwatch this nation, iwatch race. Sations about we were just talking about john hope franklin, a revered africanamerican scholar, who to start clinton asked a conversation about race. It did not go anywhere. The country was not ready to step up and look at issues directly. Obama has had the same problem. What i mean about dialogue is indiscernible we shouldible] move more into conversation about north and south, it would be easier. If you are not talking about race, you are not talking about the core issue. That is why i talk about slavery, slavery was there from the start and that legacy is hanging as a cloud over this country, we cannot seem to get away from it. Missed they, i conversation but i heard it through the hallways. I wanted to come in and ask the question, they are doing territorial peace in colombia. They recognize what goes on in different regions of facts the overall peace differently. Right . So i wanted to bring this idea to you and say, would this have many implications . Maybe we could have a dialogue about race in massachusetts, but we cannot have it in mississippi. You know . It raises the questions the colombian government as having right now. What are the conditions that allow for the conditions that allow for the conditions to be able to talk . I want to talk about what you think the conditions are that would allow the space to be created that would allow the conversation to be different in different locations. I was in cincinnati and people will get together over dinner and have conversations. Stepped back from the opposition and did not have a conversation. I think it is going to take a long time. At a local level, they work well. At a national level, i am not clear. I am pessimistic. All the turmoil, it makes me feel like were not there yet. To say, this is a human being. The whole first time about, how do i get him out of office, how do we make him a oneterm sosident, i found that wrong. The level of animus. That would imply, then, that you were at the school for resolution. I do not take no for an answer. Would that imply that, when you say, were not ready, i would agree with you, but my question is, what would help us get ready. If theres nothing that would help us get ready, then lets home and sleep for one hundred years like rip van winkle. I wanted to do down on what we could do. Part of what were trying to do at the Freedom Center was have a small scale conversation at starbucks, at the library, other places to have people who live on other sides of the city to talk to each other that way. Happen at a lot of different places. It is going to take time and it is a matter of how patient or impatient we are. Very much for shining a light on this issue where there is so much emotion nationally. I suspect, in and i am hearing Different Things from members of south and midwest of issues that really, we think should be settled. For example, what was the treatment of the slaves . I have heard in congress, congressman say the slaves were not treated so badly. There is a line of argumentation which tries to rationalize, obviously, the institution for various reasons. This space to professor rubinsteins point to what motivates him to do that and so on. It be food for four, in some way, for some kind of activism in the south to express howwide range of up about the slaves were treated. What happened to the free after the civil war . How are they traded . What were the how do we klan . The my view is they were american terrorists. Would it be helpful to focus on the struggle in the self about those issues and the wide range of opinion. Crew that has been happening already. The biggest problem the historians have as we haveot been able to get the history out far enough so that enough people see it, here, understand it, and recognize the richness and diversity of it. Part of it has to do with the history books in high schools and who controls the content. I go back to the history wars of the 1990s where historians said we need to create a more diverse story of a American History and the reaction was just tremendous. As it is now, it is hard to get a broader story into the history books, especially the ones out of california and texas, where the majority of the narratives are created and spread to other places. I agree very much, we can also have a counterforce saying, we like the history of the 1950s, we do not want to talk about another world. That is a tough struggle. My comment about i went totion, jackson, mississippi. In 2009, i went to jackson, mississippi and i took some photos. I got some comments from my friends. Asked, are you back . They meant, are you back in africa . [indiscernible] my comment is about reconciliation. I do not think it is as difficult as some of us proceed. It is about readiness and willingness. If the situation is not ready or people are not willing, how come [indiscernible] and isor crew school dont know. For the nexthope generation. They have a different view than the rest of us, for them, diversity and racial lines are more blurred, different, not as big a deal. My hope is the next couple of generations, and it may be a four is a red door for his belief, but forgive my notimism, i think we are going to change quickly enough, but the next generations will. I watch my kids and the kids in my classes. Their world view is much different, more fluid than ours. My hope is they will be ready for something that is different. I want to go back to some of what i thought i was hearing. The readiness for the conversation. I think, my impression is not that americans are not ready for a conversation about race, because of many issues. Conflict of version. Tendency not to look at any structural issues. Everybody is being nice, nice. Dont get upset. Dont cry. So, you talk about nothing. In the name of decency or being polite. I do not know if there are any other conversations i hear thand about in depth other that. Maybe the conflict resolution community, one of the important roles is to not take no for an answer. Dont leave stones unturned. Dont shy away. Talk about unpleasant things. Abouteople talk unpleasant things to the point of just short of them running late and not coming back. It is not about feeling comfortable. If we wait for that, then will be talking about the weather for a long time. Professor rubenstein actually, northerners dont want to talk about how well the slaves were treated. Complicated, but interesting. Where watching these things, and alexandria, what would you say is important in acknowledging members of the community as well as the evilness of what happened in a way that would help the next generation move forward into a positive, productive conversation. Prof. Crew the flag is one thing. Another set of issues, i am not of erasingve history. You have to be careful about that. But i think what you want to do is offer parallel stories, parallel information, so that people can see all of the things connected. Now, we have the robert e lee family. The lee family goes back a long way. Had slaves, did not treat them well. So you need to know the firm range. One of the concerns i have about how we do American History as we want to find heroes, put them on pedestals, and not have feet of clay. By understanding may have feet of clay, you understand they had they are human, like we are. There are people in my family, i dont like what they do, but i love them. Degree, oneertain way or the other. Here is a complicated person, there are problems but there are things that they do well, too. We need to embrace all of that. On the issue of problems with agree a true dialogue, i with this woman. The problem seems to be a great impediment to dialogue is people , could there not be a graduate program, a thesis perhaps, where people in small groups are developed. White and black. All black. Right. They have an opportunity on cd to express all of the injustices they feel. The dont see each other, you swap the cds. People get emotional and crazy, and then they must answer via cd. This would go back and forth over time until people can meet in person. I do not know if that will occur and not, but it seems like the only venue that draws people to truly say how they feel. If you do not have that, you cannot possibly have conflict resolution. Prof. Rubenstein at this is what were supposed to be doing. This sort of thing. It is partly about people being free to express themselves and say how they feel. There is also in analytical side of this. Are thesehat narratives really about . What is underlying them . What is generating this sort of behavior . Police to conflict look at each other, talk to each other, not only express themselves freely but are invited to examine the causes of their conflict. Why are they at each others throats . Spencer said, and everybody also pretty much has said, this issue is supposed to be over and up with. This ratio issue. It was one in the military, it was one in the Civil Rights Movement, it was one with the president who is africanamerican, so why is it still such a live issue . What is it still so taboo to talk about it . There are some mysteries here. Some things we cannot pretend to know the answers to. We got to be trying to find out what the answers are. Yes, sir . Yesterday, i wanted to spend time with the letter of the clergy road to Martin Luther king in alabama. His response to that of supermoving when he was in prison. I cannot stop talking about it. I wanted to bring it up. The analysis of the language used by the clergyman to justify why they wanted him to write it and why they did not want the protest into that everything would have a good time. Made it sound like, if we can ok. It out it will be who wanted to happen in a safe way for everyone. We want peace. The language, the supported the status quo so soothing, it was almost like, how can you disagree with this letter . Then king, and this massive all right, shows the violence of their language. He talks about negative and positive, and he shows us but that is was actually creating, that potential to have that violence they were afraid of. By allowing you to test will sitends and demonstrations was healthier is able to get the rage out. But in this issue of conversation, it is not just the words being said, but how those words are being used. More conversation, a lot of rhetoric supporting the status quo, he showed you have to listen very carefully to what it is doing. In this next generation of powerful conversations, people are learning the dialogues who can see through this language in and really get to what matters, and now. Now. Thank you very much. Very and lightning. Were faced with what i refer to as the barking dog syndrome. From a seminal book, the political genius of abraham. It was published not recently but in any case, lincolns ability to reconcile this conflict at the conclusion of the civil war, he attributed to the barking dog. We have an inclination to run away from a working dog or throw a rock and a barking dog. He was never able to fully reconcile the differences, and so we continue to perpetuate this exclusiveness and our continues to creep its ugly face in philadelphia, baltimore, all the other cities you mentioned in your commentary. To some degree, and an effort to heal the nation we never quite understood the root cause. We never faced the barking dog. We let it kind of bark and decided to sleep on it or throw a rock at it. We never truly address the issues. Prof. Crew it we are also a nation that tends to not do anything until a crisis hits. Then people get worried enough to do something. Then, they say, might as well keep the same, it will change slowly. It takes a major moment to cause changed to happen. Sometimes it is a regretful moment, sometimes it is one of protest. But we need to keep stirring the society so does not feel comfortable. Things are not going to change if everybody is quiet and comfortable. Prof. Rubenstein one of the things you talked about that interested me, they all interested me, but the question of historian understanding. Popular gets into culture. When you talk about the south being the of cotton in the 19th century, i thought, wow. That is the opec of cotton in the 19 century, i thought, wow. That shows by slavery is not just as viable as someone said it wanted, but it calls attention to the effect fact this is part of american development. The north will ride on cheap cotton, too. It was not only our largest export product, but it was the basis of fortunes in new england, right . So it goes against the feeling that sometimes you have, well, slavery was a good thing that happened in the south and it did not have anything to do with the others, and everyone else can congratulate themselves on being a free state. That is not the way and was at all. Now, you see history classes being cut back in high schools and that sort of thing. It makes me wonder. The other thing you said, when it becomes a question of eight historical monument. John c calhoun monument, i remember going for the first time when i move to fairfax, when i first came to work your, going to visit someone. In fairfax. I wondered, as i learned down the street, disease as well as this street is named after a racist killer . No, i do not think so. Some people have said, do not destroy the monuments. Do not deface or destroyed the monuments, but add materials to them. There is nothing wrong to have the bombr who dropped on hiroshima at the national air and space museum if it had material around insane while the bomb was dropped and at least reflecting a debate around it. Not just something that says, this is the airplane that dropped the bomb. It is into that great . I wonder if that is a possible solution, to take the monuments and add stuff to them about what they actually mean. Happen in that does some places. Some places are beginning to do that. That did this on what they see as fair resolution. You can offer the information and the community has to figure out what works best for them. Prof. Rubenstein a few more comments. Wrote about mount vernon, but george and martha used to come out. It is interesting to me that people dont realize he had over 500 slaves. There is a graveyard. Living quarters. To make that comment, because a lot of people come through and they are like, right . George washington had slaves . And i am like, yeah. Of the how he drove all inventions and agriculture into his whole business and created the United States district of columbia and the white house and all that. It is quite interesting. Once upon a time, the school had a welcoming dinner which is at a hall that will stretch missions plantation in virginia. When the word got out that we were meeting their which was at the george masons plantation in virginia. When the word got out, some of the black students and, while a meeting at the house of a slave owner . Debate and, as george mason and right and what did it mean that he was a slave holder . The story has a happy ending because he decided to meet her about talk to the managers of the estate about, how come did they not have a recognition of who they slaves, what work had been done, and all of the best of it. As a result of all of that, they added all of that. They now have the museum at gunston hall that talks about the actual conditions of life of the slaves and even names some of them. Im and alumni. Im and alumni student. Am an alumni. Talk to about the proposal for the legislation. Professor crew there are growing conversations about whether or not the mississippi flag should be flown over the capital building. Legislation, but it is under the view of congress to say yes or no. You may hear more in the future. Concept, would have been in South Carolina, how they took the flag down. My idea is approaching it in a different way. The civil war did happen. The confederacy did happen. That is that of American History. Is that the solution . Instead, can it be possible to work with both sides in every community and hopes of one day, none of those communities or persons will use the confederate flounce that history on other groups. Isnt that covering up what happened in the past instead of embracing . Isnt that kind of diminishing what happened or diminishing part of history . Does that make sense . I have a couple thoughts to suggest. One is the first to drag up in 1960 two. Ryan 1962 should mark you are taking a position that is very clearly up post to the changes taking place in society. Your feelings, your history, you are saying that has no importance to us. It took economic pressure 30 years later to get them to take it down. Of it is common sense does not always lead where you need to go. I would suggest, you do not want to raise history, but what i think they have done in South Carolina is an interesting way to think about it. The flag has come down off of the state grounds and is going to be museum. It is now a story, a history, an exhibition about the flag and the museum. That is not to be. It does not necessarily have to be in a public space and you know that flag has certain connotations to which you know are negative to a large part of the population. It is like in its left in the face and saying, that is ok. I will smile. I think you need to push back. I think you cannot accept that disrespect. Thats what it is. Does respect. Agree completely. How about the other narrative . I get that it is disrespectful to the Africanamerican Community that the flag will be displayed in any public space, however, how about in the other party . The other community . Prof. Crew what they have to beware of, even though it is about heritage, the symbol has been hijacked and people who believe in violence, supremacy, the ku klux klan. You also have to take into account what has happened to your symbol. You cannot just say, i believe this and it is ok. There is a larger context. We cannot ignore that. You cannot say, it does not count, and recounts what i think. I do not think that is rational and i do not think it is how this society functions. Prof. Rubenstein cassy, you can have the last word. Cassie this goes against the wall conversations i have. Being from montana, random conversations i have. It is always interesting for me to see paper with different perspectives. The most common thing i see is with people who are supporters, they do not know anything about history. Which is why i was interested in learning more today. It is important to have a conversation because it makes it harder to have a conversation when there is no basis. To even be able to have informally, i do not think that is needed an event. We can always have them without our family members and friends, can be doing this on our own as well. Thank you very much. Very much. U and thank you, spencer. We appreciate it. [applause] former naacp president julian bond died in august. American history tv features an oral history where julian bond remembers growing up in the segregated south and his later political career. This is one of several rural histories of the African American leaders. Is through the explorations in black leadership project. That is sunday, october 25, at 10 00 a. M. Eastern here on cspan. Featuring first ladies, influence and image, at 8 00 p. M. On sunday nights for the rest of the show. It was used from cspan in the whiten with house. We tell the stories of americas 45 first Lady Bird Johnson a beautification to my mind is far more than a matter of cosmetics. To me, it describes the whole effort to bring the Natural World and the manmade world into harmony, to bring order, usefulness, delight to our whole environment, and that, of