Transcripts For CSPAN3 Simeon Wright Interview 20140609

For emmett tills murder, and that haunts simeon. Lonnie bunch, thank you. My pleasure. We have much to talk about today, and i thought we might begin with something thats very close and very personal in your memories,s and thats just a description of your mother and your father. Well, my father, he was what we call kind of hard man. Fair. Someone thats tough but fair. Thats the kind of man he was. He loved farming. He was honest. They found out most people that he worked for in his early years that he was an honest man. If it didnt belong to him, he didnt bother it. He was a hard worker and he enjoyed to see when cotton would begin to grow in mississippi, he just became excited. And i couldnt figure out why. But thats the kind of man he was. He enjoyed the farming and told my mother, said, hey, i was born and bred in mississippi. Mississippi im going to die. Now, my mother on the other hand, she was different. She was raised in hazel hurst, mississippi, below jackson. I think when my dad proposed to her she told him about, i dont know how to pick cotton. But i think they met in memphis. Memphis was the headquarters of the church of god in christ. She heard my daddy deliver ray message there. Believe it or not, her parents lived in sumner, mississippi, where the trial of emmett till was taken. Why she was in memphis she whereas teaching school. Back in those days a few africanamerican you didnt need a College Degree to teach school. She was teaching there and she moved back to sumner to be near my dad. Thats where they got married in sumn sumner, mississippi, in 1925. She was an easy woman. She would sing. Every day she would be Singing Church songs. Oh, she was something. You know, with four boys at that time, she had four day boi boys the house. Im sure we had done something wrong, we asked, mama, when are you going to whip us . Thats how easy she was. We just when mom would leave the house we would be afraid that something would come out of the woods, a bear or something. But when she was around the house, we wasnt afraid of anything because she was always moving, always busy. She would do anything to protect her children. She was somebody. Last year you published a beautiful book simeons story about the emmett till case and how it reverberated throughout your life, even right up to the present day. I thought we might use start our conversationing with just some reflections from you about how, after this span of time, you came to choose to write that book. Well, one of the reasons, i would be watching certain documentaries about emmett till and i would see things that they would represent that wasnt true and i would get very upset. My wife every time i would do that, she would say, why dont you write your own book. Finally, after a couple of years of trying to persuade me to do it, i decided to write my own book and to tell what happened at the store. To tell the world what happened in my bedroom. To correct the myths and inaccura inaccuracies. Theres so many out there. And one of them that really cut to the heart where they said that his cousin that would be my brother maurice and i dared him to go into the store and Say Something to the i wrote the book to correct inaccuracies. One reporter said he helped my dad escape mississippi in a coffin. S so i asked the question, he had three sons at the time. How did they get out of mississippi . Thats my purpose of writing the book, to correct history and to get the facts out. Let me take you all the way back. I know youve had the opportunity to talk about this story on various occasions. I appreciate your willingness to do it in this context also. Let me take you back to the summer of 1955. Youre about 12 years old . 12 years old. And its late in the summer . Late in the summer. Kids are never 12. Theyre always 12 and 11 months. So i was a month away from my 13th birthday. You only give your correct age if youre past 50. I think you have an october birthday, dont you . October 15th. So the cotton harvest is about to come on. The beginning of the harvest, late august. Emmett arrived at my home on a saturday and we started picking cotton that monday. You wrote in the book about you felt a great deal of excitement anticipating the visit by emmett and by other members of your extended family. Can you talk about how you thought about that visit and what it meant to you as a 12yearold. Once we found out that emmett and wheat elle was coming to mississippi, that was something. We just get so much joy to see someone from the north to come down to visit, tell us about life in chicago in the north. Oh, just full of excitement. We wanted to show them theres things we did in mississippi to have fun and whatnot. We just couldnt wait until he got it there. When he arrived, we werent disappointed because hes a great story teller. He told us about chicago. It was so great that some of the things he told me about chicago, lincoln park and that area, even today we take our sunday School Picnic at lincoln park and north avenue beach every summer. And i heard it first from emmett. And you had been to chicago. I had been there but never to lincoln park. So you had made a trip up as a child. Yes. I think it was in early 47. I stayed with my aunt. Emmett lived in the basement, he and his mom and her husband la morse. I spent about two weeks here. One of the great memories of being here. 2 00 p. M. Liam ma would gather emmett and i, said we needed a nap. We was tired. We werent tired. But that was it up north, you had to take a nap in the evening. Tell me about emmett and wheeler on the farm and what you set about doing the next few days and how you welcomed them. After he told us about chicago, about river view park, i just couldnt believe a park would be that big. I heard it from him. When i saw it, the first time, i said, man, he just couldnt explain it how beautiful it was. Of course it shut down in 1967. Many of us cried because it was such a wonderful place. We talked and then my mother decided whos going to sleep with who. Emmett and i shared a bed. My bedroom theres two beds. My Brother Robert is in one of the beds. That monday morning its time to go to the cotton field. Of course emmett, he asked my dad could he go. My dad said yes, thinking he got to be out of his mind. I had four years seniority from the age of 8 to 12. It was a hot job. But we showed him what we had to do in miss. One of the things we showed you swim in mississippi. You dont just jump in the water. The fist thing you do is you run the snakes out of the water. Then you go in. Swim as long as you want. Make sure the snakes are out. Because back in those days we were taught that snakes didnt bite in the water. And we believed that. But i found out later thats not so. We did what we do in mississippi. We went down to one of our neighbors house. Probably had a half acre of watermelons. We taught him how to borrow some watermelons. And we each had one. He thought that was wonderful, you know. Then after that, that wednesday a lot of people think that on that wednesday we went to the store and that the men came to our house that same night. But that wednesday he wanted to go to we had picked cotton all day. We wasnt bored as someone said, that we was bored and we had stole that day and went and took money. I said, get out of here. He wasnt even there. He claimed he helped emmett steal my dads car. As a matter of fact, i think i read that false account that they even took the car while your dad was preaching and went into town. My tads last sermon in mississippi was in 1949. For some reason he just stopped preaching. The reason he came to chicago that summer was he was invited to deliver the eulogy for one of his old parishioners. So we went to this little store, and a lot of things happened. A lot of things in history that isnt true. So its the end of the day on wednesday, and this would be the 25th now i guess. 24th. You were out that morning picking cotton. Picking cotton. Can you take me kind of through the day from there on and how that fateful day took its course. Well, in the morning we get up, have a pretty good breakfast. No cereals. You wouldnt last an hour in the hot sun with cereal. Emmett went to the cotton fields that monday. He came home, told my mom, auntie, i cant stand the heat. He was at home all day. We picked cotton all day. When i mean all day, all day. From sun to not quite dusk. You had to have enough sun to weigh the cotton. We finished up and arrived at home. We had supper. Then at that time we decided to go to money. My brother maurice was driving, 16 at the time. Emmett and i, wheeler, young man crawford one of our neighbors. We went up to money, and maurice parked the car. I mean, we was in money less than 20 minutes. What you heard in history seemed like we were there two hours. Landfally g l l ly we walked the store. Wheeler went inside of the store first. Then emmett went in after wheeler. Wheeler came out, maurice sent me in behind emmett to make sure that he didnt say anything that he shouldnt. Because he just didnt know the ways of the south. The reason he did that, that sunday we had gone to money we bought some fireworks which was common to us but new to him. And he began to set them off inside of the city limits. And that was a nono. So that was the reason maurice sent me in there. And bhiel inside of the store, emmett didnt say anything out of line. There was no bubble gum stuff that we hear in history. He paid for his items, and we walked outside of the store. We standing on the south side of the door there, callan came out, before she could get off the wooden walk way, emmett whistled at her. Usually i try to nodemonstrate e whistle. Scared us half to death. We couldnt get out of town fast enough. It we ran to the car. Emmett saw our reaction, it scared him. We got in the car as fast as we could, and got out of town. So less than 20 minutes. Yeah. Probably 10 minutes. Let me ask a couple more point bzs about that. So many different stories are told about those few minutes. Your group was six so your brother maurice, yourself emmett till, Roosevelt Crawford and wheeler. Wheeler parker jr. And there was another young man. I want to say it was jamesper n pernell, but im not sure. Can you p paint a districtive picture of what you see in 1955 when you pull up to the doors of the bryant store. What it looks like in there. Well, we pull up. Outside theres a bench there where people a young man was playing ches playing checkers. Wasnt no white man black man. Trust me, there was no such thing. Inside of the store you really couldnt see inside too good. Youve got to get in because all the stuff in the front window and whatnot. The store floors are wooden of course. There was the counter. Couldnt just come in there and get in contact with the person behind the counter. As callan said that emmett came in, put her arms around her, asked her for a date, that never happened. But she made that up during the trial. Wasnt under oath. Because she knew that if she purgered herself, they could get her. Smart white boyz, her lawyer knew that. She said that so i tell people, in order for that to happen, you have to jump overthecounter. The other store mostly was closed that time of night. I dont know why. Okay, this is it. I learned later that on wednesdays all of the stores close early for some reason, i found out from my older brother on wednesday we could go to the doctor there on wednesday. So this is why our bryant store was the only one open. He wouldnt adhere to the rules of money, mississippi, because actually one day when we first heard about him, he made one of the store owners close his store because he told him, we are going to close on wednesday. And he didnt. He pulled his gun. I made him close. So this is why we was at bryants store. Ordinarily we wouldnt shop in his store. When you stepped inside when your brother maurice said, go in and check on emmett, when you stepped inside, the moment was not particularly charged with any atmosphere or any confusion or upset emotions inside the store . You just found emmett about to complete his purchase . No. He was just looking for stuff he wanted to buy. He purchased it and we left. But less than a minute. He didnif he said anything befo got in there, i have no idea. Only Callan Bryant could say that. You were with him when he completed his purchase. Yes. And we left the store together. That seemed completely routine. Yes. She came out behind us. Walking to her car to get something and he whistled at her. Your understanding is she came out to the car to retrieve something for to retrieve something, right. I had no idea what she was going to get. And he whistled and scared us. Scared us so bad. So you jumped in the car. We jumped in the car. Man, we got out of town. Someone said, why did you run . Its like breaking a window, if you break somebodys window, you get out of town. No idea that he would be killed for whistling at Callan Bryant. That didnt cross our mind. The only thing that crossed our mind is if we got caught wed receive a whipping. And maurice my brother, driving down this dark road, about seven miles long, eastwest, where we lived there was no northsouth highways. You couldnt travel north and south on a gravel road. You either there were dirt roads but it went so far so the wood line. That was it. We drove about two miles. We live exactly from the Railroad Tracks to our house was exactly three miles, according to my odometer. About two miles down the road, maurice saw this light in the rear view mirror. He thought it was callans husband chasing us so he stopped the car. They all jumped out of the car except me, ran through the cotton field trying to hide. I figured i could hide in the back seat. But it was our neighbors going home. But when they got back to the car, this is when emmett begged us not to tell daddy what happened. He didnt want to go home. We didnt want him to go home. We were having so much fun. Never dreamed that he would be killed for this. In that moment of the whistle and just after, did you move so quickly that you did you have any occasion to see if there was any reaction from mrs. Bryant at that moment . A long look. She did look. But when youre scared you dont pay attention. You know, its . History that we were standing out lallygaging, that he had pictures of his white girlfriend. That never happened. There was no such thing. There was no picture of anything. Then they said that we dared him to go inside the store. No. I said, my nephew that said he wasnt even there. But they got him on film, eyes on the prize, saying that. None of that happened. Its good to take some care as youre doing to bring forth your personal direct experience with this because, as youre saying, there are many stories that got attached to that moment that have nothing to do with what actually happened. And one of them was as you said, this reporting that some of you had sort of put emmett up to this provocative gesture, other reports that he had photos of white girls in his wallet. No. If he had them, he didnt show them to us, you know. But they try to make out that he was i said, no. None of that happened. But its in history. Im trying to correct it. Exactly. So you get back home and theres aend el enen enend gentle, cons it quiet. Unusually quiet. We just didnt want him to he felt daddy was going to send him home. So it was unusual quiet. Went to bed, get ready for the next day. You mentioned in your book theres a you say a neighbor girl. I dont know how old she was who the next day or maybe no. The next day. Next day, right. She was 16 at the time. She told us, because her brother not her brother. Her uncle apparently told his family what happened. And she told us the next day, said, yall are going to hear some more about this. We know these people. And of course we was apprehensive maybe the first day. But after thursday passed, then friday passed, then nothing happened. We forgot all about it. And by saturday saturday we were getting ready to go to greenwood. First you secure a ride. Man, it was something. Its Christmas Morning in august to go to greenwood and to enjoy the footlong hot dog, the mall, go to the movies. It was something. From 6 00 p. M. To 12 00 midnight we would be in greenwood, mississippi. Mostly on one street, johnson, street. And i think your older brother maurice was sort of in charge of the car that night. Maurice had our car so i secured a ride with Roosevelt Crawfords brother, john crawford. And maurice, wheeler and emmett was in the car together with roosevelt. But we all wound up at the same spot, johnson street. And did you all come back in those same arrangements . We all got home around the same time. Everything shuts down at 12 00 midnight. And we went to bed that night, just like any other night. But then within an hour, a couple of hours, our world was turned upside down. It was neve tr the same again. Dthe men came to the house about 2 00 a. M. , i dont know the exact time. But somewhere in it that vicinity. Of course the house was four bedrooms, wheeler the first house was on the west side of the house where wheeler was sleeping. They wept in there. Theyre waking wheeler, said, this is the wrong boy. Were looking for the fat boy from chicago. They marched around to my bedroom. I heard the noise. The loud talking. I woke up and saw these two white men standing at the foot of my bed. One had a gun, flashlight. We found out it was j. W. He ordered me to lay back down and go back to sleep. He made emmett get up, dress, and marched him out to the truck. A lot of things happened before they marched hip out because i still didnt know what was going on. When my mother came in there, she was half talking and half pleading with them to leave him alone, that she would give them money to leave him alone. Alone. Roy kind of hesitated when they heard money, you know. But j. W. Meyer, he didnt hesitate at all. Before he left my bedroom, he asked my daddy how old was he. Of course at the time my daddy told him he was 64. J. W. Said, if you tell anybody about this, you wont live to see 65. They marched emmett out. Emmett didnt say one word. Your mother kind of knew somehow maybe. She knew how low those segregationists were. I didnt know. My dad knew, too. Once they marched him out to the truck a lady responded, yes. I heard, who was it . We believed at that time it was Callan Bryant. Nothing has happened in 56 years to cause me to change my mind. I still believe it was her. I will go to my grave believing that. She has a chance to rebut that, but she chose not to. And they drove off. And we never saw emmett alive again. But in that house that night, i never went back to sleep. My mother, she ran to neighbors, tryinged to get them to help. They wouldnt get involved. Mr. Chambliss with a son named bruce. But she came back to the house and all my dad could say was hmm, hmm, hmm. Couldnt call the police. We didnt have a phone. There was no police. You had to get ahold of the sheriff. He wasnt going to do anything until the next day. My mother was half crying, half talking. She finally told my dad, i cant stay here another night. And he had to get up and drive her to sumner where her brother lived. And he dropped her off there for safety. And she stay it there until emmetts body was found. Then she left sumner and came to chicago. She never stepped foot in that house again. So we was there in mississippi with no mother. No one to sing. It was terrible. Of course we didnt know at the time what happened to emmett. We was hoping that he wasnt killed, that we would get him back. Awhole lot of emotion was going on there. We got through it. But it was tough. It was tough. On that sunday morning your father i think decided that a phone call needed to be made to emmetts mother in chicago. Right after we contacted the sheriff and let them know what happened, we used the boss man hes the only one with a telephone. He let us use the phone. And the boy that claimed that he was at the store that night emmett it actually, he arrived at my house the same night emmett was kidnapped. I didnt know he was in the house. I asked wheeler, did he come with yall . He said no. So we dont know who brought him there, but we had a Spare Bedroom and he was sleeping in the Spare Bedroom. He had been staying with other family. He came to mississippi to stay with his aunt in greenwood, and he traveled back to our country home that saturday night, and he was asleep. He never woke up. I think wheeler even today was just glad he never woke up because he had no sense of danger either. He probably would have tried to resist and hes the one that made the phone call. He called his mom, which is my oldest sister willie may, and she got in contact with maimy, emmetts mother. Obviously at the time you wouldnt have known this, but later and as you grow older and look back on this, mrs. Till was not passive. She took a whole range of steps very quickly that would come to shape the events in significant ways. She did that, yes. She wouldnt lay down. She wouldnt what happened to her son she wasnt going to let it rest until she got justice. And she fought down through the years trying to get justice for her son. Before she passed away in it 2003, before the federal government decided to investigate the case, she did what she could. Some things that was said i explained in my book, i said, thats a mothers love talking. Its not the facts. Theres a difference in a mothers love and facts. Tell me about those couple of days until the body is discovered and learning that news. Well, monday was a normal scheduled workday. The night we spent the next two nights with neighbors my dad took us over to mr. Clinton, he he had his own land. We had about five families around that had their own land so we stayed with them for a couple of nights. My Brother Robert and i, im not sure who maurice stayed with, and after two days we realized daddy not afraid, were not afraid either. But that monday we was right back out in the cotton field picking, wondering, hoping that we would see emmett alive again. And monday the same thing. Tuesday, same thing. Picking cotton all day. Wednesday some men came and talking to my dad, then they left. We figured at that time something had occurred, they had found him or whatnot. Thats when they had found his body in the tallahassee river about 20 miles north of where we lived. They wanted us to bury his body the same day. We had the body, tallahassee county sent it to Leflore County where he was kidnapped from. We had the grave dug, the body there, and the sheriff came, george smith and put a stop to it. But the protest said that he was told to bury the body today. George smith said, im the sheriff in Leflore County there will be no burial here today. He just jumped in his car. Back in those days instead of getting rubber you just spin the wheels and throw gravel all over the place. That stopped george smith. You wouldnt have known at the time, but you understand now how it was that sheriff smith intervened to stop the burial . What his motives were in doing that . Number one, from what ive gathered down through the years, Leflore County was a little bit more fair it than tallahassee. He was not going to have that stain on his record. He did all he could to get these men, but he came unup against those segregationists and same thing happened in Leflore County when my dad went back for the kidnapping trial, same thing. Same caliber of people said not true. He was determined to get justice, but probably the sheriff of tallahassee was determined until somebody got to him. When somebody got to strider, even he changed during the trial. He testified for the defense. Thats almost i dont know if youre supposed to do that or not. Doesnt the sheriff work for the prosecutor . Thats what they tell me. Strider testified for the defense . Yeah. Tell what you know about that. He was a defense witness about the body that was pulled out of the tallahassee river. At first he was saying it was a black man. Then he changed it and said, i couldnt tell whether it was white or black. And that obviously connected to the defense argument that were not even sure this is the body of emmett till. Right. Its interesting that so george smith to return to him for just a moment, in some sense, in all of this landscape of this ubiquitous and overwhelming white culture, george smith in doing his job as a sheriff he tried. There was too many segregationists to overcome them. He did what he could. He arrested them. He had a grand jury hearing on it and whatnot. But the grand jury said i guess they said there was not enough evidence. That was later for the kidnapping trial. But we had eyewitnesss and they admitted they took him. Its a done deal. But that shows you how evasive and evil the segregationists were. Did he have to go in front of the grand jury in the first place to get the murder indictment . Oh, yes. But that was from what i hear later, it was a debate whether they were going to try to get a murder indictment in tallahassee county or leflore. They felt they had a better chance in tal hasss see county so they did it there. I see. You obviously diplomdnt go to chicago for the funeral. No. We had to stay for the trial. Actually, im the one to identify the ring that was taken off the body. My daddy never identified that ring. He said the ring cleared it up. But when the sheriff brought the ring out and was showing it to my dad, i said, thats bobos ring. Thats what we called him. Of course he had to go to sumner. I didnt know what i was doing, talking to the lawyers. They try to trick you up. But this is emmetts ring. I was subpoenaed to appears a material witness. But the only reason i wasnt called when maimy came down there when she was put on the stand, she identified the ring as that being her sons. Let me ask you about the trial. You were anticipating, as you say, perhaps being called as a witness and you spent time during the trial waiting in the witness room. Right. Can you recall and describe that its a complicated several days. So many things. But can you describe some of the things that come first to your mind when you think about that. What, being in the witness room . One, the bailiff was extraordinarily nice to me and made sure that i was comfortable, and the cameras and the newspaper reporters and all around even when i would go outside of the witness room standing there, it was a circus atmosphere. But im thinking, this is a done deal. Were going to get a conviction. I guess i watched too many cowboy movies. The bad guy always got caught. But ive learned a lesson about segregation and racism. When you think back on, say, all of the folks who came to that courthouse and the men, 12 white men on that jury, and that jud judge, do you ever ask yourself, how is it that these people can hold this sort of this viewpoint, this whole way of thinking about race in the world and all . Is there any way that you can think about that that makes any sense to you . After reflecting on it, it doesnt make sense, but it goes deeper than the color of my skin. And as i reflect, i said, i think it goes all the way back to the civil war where these men lost a way of life and they blamed me because im black. I mean, they were the aristoc t aristocrats of america and they lost that. And from that, that hatred began to to fester. Its been passed down through the generations because the kids, theyre not born with that. Someone has to teach them that. The young men that we play with, they werent racist. What, we ate together, we fought together, we hunt snakes together. I didnt. I thought they were half krazy. But sooner or later someone older had to tell them that we were different and that you couldnt play with after you get a certain age, we had to separate. Even my mother told me that one boss man had a son named tommy peterson. He used to come get me to go swimming with them. And my mother said, one day, when you get older, youre going to have to call him mister. I said, not so. Im not going to do it. So that was a change right then. Im not going to call tommy mister. No, i call a young man mister, he may be young enough to be my grandson. It depends on what kind of job he has. I dont go to a high school and call this young boy john. I call him mister, whoever he is, because of his position. But just to call him mister because hes white, oh, no. It was changing. Mr. Wright, id like to spend a few minutes talking about the move your family then makes and the feelings of your father that its time to go, well leave. Can you describe how that all came to pass and how you made the move to chicago. Well, i remember after the trial was over and we left that little town, sumner, looking back, realized that we had no one to help us, the verdict not guilty, people rejoicing. Of course the other expressions, the seg gra gairegationists wer rejoicing at the verdict. Daddy was crushed at that verdict. Yet from what i learned later, he had an idea what was going to take place. But it still crushed him. He came home he had been somewhere that saturday morning after the verdict. He came back home. He said, boys, we cant stay here any longer. We have to leave. Your father in taking the decision to testify had obviously done something that put him and all of you in that sense in a very precarious and dangerous position. Dangerous, yes. Obviously he understood that and decided to testify anyway of he understood that because the neighbors was trying to convince him not to testify. They said, theyll kill you. Of course, Medgar Edwards encouraged my daddy they would do all they could to protect him. Finally one day my dad said, i know one thing. I know im going to testify. Whether i live i dont know. So he knew by testifying he could be killed, but he said, a man has to do what a man has to do. And he did it. He did something that no other black man had ever done in mississippi and lived to tell about it. Years later, months later, did your father ever talk with you about that night . Did he revisit that . Was that something that he no. He never talked about what happened at that store. We never brought that up. Even emmetts mother we never talked about it. She never really asked us what happened. For years i wouldnt talk about him. I worked with millwrights, pipe fitters, and after 20 years they saw me on television, they said, we had no idea, because i never talked about it. But daddy, he put his life on the line. He was so devastated. You know, its like sending your son to care with someone else and your son come up killed or murdered. It destroys you. It tears your heart apart. He was willing to die to bring justice for emmett till. Can you talk a little bit about both your mother and your father, how they made the transition to a new life in chicago . Because that clearly was so much at odds with the life that they had known and such a big shift and such traumatic and horrible dramatic and horrible circumstances. The life in mississippi, working was so much different than the north. Mississippi you had, my dad had went off to go hunt, go fish. Mississippi, when it was raining, in mississippi if it rains you got a day off and next day you can go fishing. So the work was different. At that time my dad was 64. Actually 63 at the time. But we went back and got census records and whatnot. And at that time, we moved there was no job for a 63yearold in the factories. They just wasnt going to hire you, you was too old. He couldnt get the job or make the money that he was making in mississippi. He made good money in mississippi because we had we had a boss man that was a german, believe it or not and he was fair. He was a born again christian and he was fair to us and dad always cleared money. At the end of the year, 2,000, i think in 1948, he cleared about 6,000. I mean thats after all your bills are paid. You fine somebody doing that now today thats a lot of money. And when he got here all he could fine was restaurant work, cleaning up, whatnot. And the thing that really helped us was my older brother james, you had four flat. He let my dad and our family live there rent free until my dad moved out in 1964, i believe. Thats why i tell kids i never left home. I say you got to be out of your mine. My mama cooking and washing my clothes. They left me. The place they got wasnt big enough for me. Ive been on my own ever is in then. Tell me about your mothers experience. That experience changed her so, i think it took years off of her life. She never could get over that. She was a church woman. She was used to singing you could hear her singing every day in mississippi. I dont remember her singing here because of that. And she worried about it and she just thought about it i think what really helped the one day she was thinking about it and she said the spirit of the lord said these men have killed whole families and nothing was done. See i spared your family from being killed. I think that comforted her a little bit. But she could never shake it. She couldnt shake it and maurice couldnt shake it. Maurice thought my dad should have resisted. But resist what . The guy has a gun. What you going to resist . How you is going to resist . Resist would have meant death to us all. But she, she held on to her faith in the lord and until she passed away, you know. I called 70 young. She was 70 when she passed away. But she was oh, i tell you, what did the writer say. He said he took one look at my mother and realized she was uneducated thats why i dont believe a word he said. How can you look at a person and tell that they are uneducated. Thats what he said. Thats why i put a picture of my mom in there, in the book there. Because an africanamerican culture back then they were well educated. She did all the reading. Told us about all of the stories and the lindbergh cases and the kidnappings and things. How if a prison escaped in mississippi they send grafton. Never wanted to go on the ice in mississippi. My Brother Robert was ice fishing one day and the ice broke. He almost died. I just said a few words, the only thing i said, you know better. Mama told you not to do that. But he wont do it any more. But she was somebody. You were only 12 which is pretty young. 12, yes. Only 12 at the time. Thats pretty young. You came up and had to make the whole transition and went to school down the street. Right down the street, arnold school, sixth grade. Not two blocks from where we are now. Right. And made your way forward. And i want to ask, because i think this goes in important ways as you explain in the book to the question of how we try to make sense of these kinds of things. Martin luther king obviously came to chicago and brought a certain message of a certain strategy to chicago as he had earlier argued in other places too. And that was not necessarily a message that really persuaded you at the time. Can you talk a little bit about that. The message was he wanted us to march with him in chicago, nonviolence and my friends and i were told that if we got slapped or spit on we couldnt retaliate. We said no way. Said well sit out back. Youre not going to stop my car and pull me out of there. Its not is going happen. A lot of people might have gotten ran over but i wasnt going to stop my car and let you pull me out because i know from mississippi what them segregationists do to you. I wasnt a violent person. But if you slap me i was going to try to slap you back if i thought i could win. If i thought i couldnt win i might wait my chance. But i came to, after years i would say at age 24, i was getting into a lot of scuffles up town there. Nothing serious. We didnt carry guns or knives, fist fights and we knew the boys start drinking beer and they couldnt help it, they had to call us the nword. We knew that. When they did that the fight would start and me and my friend jesse who has passed on and one night about age 24, im sitting in this tavern half high and some people say you dont hear voices but i heard this. It wasnt an audible voice but i heard it very clear. I had a buzz. And this boy didnt say i love you, didnt say i know what youve been through. All i heard was, you die your sins youre going to hell. That changed my life. I left that tavern within two weeks i had quit drinking. Quit smoking. Quit my girlfriend. Went to a church, committed my life to christ. Now i see the nonviolent ways is the way to go. If youre is going to change thing in america in any country it has to be nonviolent because if you resort to violence then the authorities going to resort to violence and a lot of people are going to be killed. I mean, we see it overseas where people are being killed by the government. I havent forgotten kent state. It happened in america. Trust me. Even today. So the nonviolent way is the way to go. But my early years in summit, i did a lot of things my dad didnt have a lot of. After i got my first job i never asked my dad for another dollar or whatnot. Cause know he didnt have it. I started shining shoes on the stet. I did pretty good. Then i start working in the bowling alley, hard work, harder than picking cotton but it was just two or three hours long. Resetting pins. Resetting pins. Jumping between two alleys. You got figure 105 pounds, you had to pick up two pins with one hand. But i did that. But i h a friend of mine, this is what she said. I never known him to be broke. I kept money in my pocket. I shined ses actually after i left the street i started shining in the shoe shine parlor for another man, then i shined on my own, i had my own parlor inavers barber shop until i got out of high school. And i finished that and, of course, i got a different job starting about two blocks from here, a place called dearborn glass, stayed there about three years and then i got a job at reynolds metals working as a labor. I said this is crazy im going back to school. This doesnt make sense. I was planning to go college. I read in the union paper they had an Apprentice Program starti up in the pipe shop, electrical, machine shop. I took the test for machine shop because i had machin shop in high school. But no opening came , and the guy the guy told me, personnel manager said we got an opening in pipe shop electrical. I thought about electricity, so i elected pipe shop. Then the Apprenticeship Program was administered out of chicago. I spent from 1968 until 1994 pipe fitting, inhouse fitter from 94 to 2004 outside construction. Of course i retired from reynolds after 28 years. At age 51. I say 51 and actually it was august 26th, 1994. Is that right . Yes. August 26th. I said i should have just couple more days to august 28th, the night that emmett was kidnapped. In these years you have lots of extended family here obviously, people whose lives are all connected to the emmett till case such as yours has and was it something that was an obvious presence in your lives and if so on what kind of frequency . I mean something that you all publicly acknowledged. Obviously it was all very much a part of your lives but was it acknowledged amongst you in circumstances or instances . Well, most of the Family Member was quiet about it. They really didnt want to talk about it. Especially on my mothers side. They just they were so devastated by it that they never really brought it up. At family meetings and reunion and whatnot. On my fathers side they would bring it up sometime because it was my uncle that drove us to the train station, you know, to get out of mississippi. But mostly we just didnt talk about it that much. Its something about a tragedy like that, even my friends, when i was out drinking and had my food, i never brought it up like they would. They would bring it up. Its not something that im going to bring it up by myself but if you bring it up, ill talk about it. Did you have a close relationship . I mean can you describe your relationship. It was close. Can you describe your relationship with ref represented parker now as you were both here in chicago and coming up in age . Oh, you know, hes a little bit taller than i am. Tried to whip him one time. I didnt do too good. But down through the years, you know, he was in high school. We didnt have too much contact. But after he committed his life to christ and he would come to this little place, it would be a tavern and restaurant combined and i would look at him and say man, hes got something i want. I could see the difference. I could see every time i would see him i would see the difference, the joy and peace that he had. And this is one of the things that i remember most about him standing up for jesus christ and as an example and i would look at that and say thats what i want. Thats what i want. I think that was the main, one of the main issues causing me to commit my life. I could see the joy that was in him. Man, have you ever waken every morning with a smile on your face . Thats something. And thats the extent, actually then of course, he got married. I was selected to be the best man. And, of course, hes still married thats the way we were trained. We western trained to put them away. We were trained to keep them. But then, of course, now hes my pastor. Hes my pastor. And at this church im deacon but i like to tell people i teach the second and third graders, oh, we have a wonderful time. Thats more important than being a deacon. Tell me about how, if you would, please, how the till case found its way back in a more involving way into your life . Well, actually that started for years i wouldnt talk about it. But that started after i began to look at the documentaries, some of the reporters that i talked to would take what i told them what happened at the store and they would merge it with whats in history and just messed the story all up. So much stuff out there now, especially on the internet, i tell the kids, theres a lot of information on the internet, but its not all true. And after i see these stories and the inaccuracies, i can name them. My daddy escaped in a coffin. Emmett would go and Say Something to bryant. Emmett didnt whistle. Why do you get upset. I get upset youre calling me a liar. He whistled. What james hicks said about our father that he stood up in court and i said he didnt talk like that. I put a portion of my dads testimony in the book to tell the world what he said because i think they got a play called about him. All of these things, you know, it bring back sad memories. Im trying my best to correct history, let the people know. It was a sad story but we got through it and changes have, can be made. It depends on the generation thats in charge. The generation under the jim crow system, they made the laws and they didnt abide by them. Thats sad. Let me ask you about 2004 and 2005. Ahha. Can you describe what the series of things that happened that caused the case ultimately to be in a formal sense anyway reopened and then there were some fairly significant events associated with that. Ahha. Well, one thing was a young filmmaker, he tried to get me to talk to him for probably i dont know how long, i refused to talk to him until my wife final hi said why dont you talk to him. Hes a young black filmmaker. And he wouldnt leave until he got the story. So i began to tell him about what happened at the store, an what happened in my bedroom. He began to investigate and he came across the gun that was used and he came across certain things that took place on a federal level and he got a boy by the name of evan sykes involved in it and they began to piece together some federal violation that had taken place and federal, i guess, charges that can justify them in actually getting into the case. And this is what happened. Actually we traveled to mississippi to talk to mr. Greenleaf. He was the Northern District states torn, u. S. Attorney at the time. And i went into his office and i told him the story of what happened. And he was visibly shaken and he promised me at the time that he would do all he could to get the case reinvestigated. And i left mississippi believing that he was going to do that. And he did. He told me about the prosecutor, mr. Chapman, i believe, that he never could shake that. He was so disappointed in the verdict. That he died, actually before his time. So, a lot of people white and black was very upset over what happened to emmett and what happened to the Justice System in mississippi. But they couldnt do anything about it. Its really interesting part of that, that reopening of the case that, it gets launched as a joint effort between the Justice Department at the federal level and state of mississippi. Right. And all these years later, as we know some things have changed. Ahha. Interestingly enough in mississippi the prosecutor is now a black woman. Ahha. And i would like you to talk about the bodies exhumed here in chicago, dna testing is done but then ultimately you get a report with no explanation from mississippi that the case will not be reopened and im particularly interested in caroline bryant. Can you describe that series of events in some detail because i know in your book you say that you finished that experience not understanding why even now that that case was not pursued. Well, the examination the state of mississippi and the federal government combined, state of mississippi told us that unless we could prove to them that the body buried was emmett till they would not reopen the case if they had enough information. So thats why we had to do the exhumation. We put in motion to exhume his body. There was opposition from socalled one cousin who found out later that some of the civil rights, socalled civil rights workers put up because the newspaper was now saying theres a controversy in the family about the exhumation. I said get out. I said we agreed on that already. The girl thats protesting, she wasnt born then. And the people that was putting her up to it, they just wanted to get some tv time. Because during that time, there was nine of us that had a say so. Six of them was in my family. So we had 63 right there. There was never a controversy. We exhumed the body. We found out some things that has been reported that wasnt true. The dna testing was done. Couple of weeks ago i found out i was a donor i never told anyone, i said i dont like to go around, you know. We found out that he wasnt castrated like some said. I didnt know. I didnt go around and found out he wasnt castrated, his teeth werent knocked out. It had to be proved to mississippi. And the dna testing proved to the state of mississippi there was indeed emmett buried and afterwards we had gone through all of this, gathered all of the information, traced the gun back, the shelling that was used back to bryant and milan, the state of mississippi still came out and joyce childs said there just wasnt enough information to bring an indictment against her. Maybe someone else might look at the evidence and say well we got enough. Do you know, did joyce childs who is the local prosecutor at the time, down in mississippi, do you know if she was able to question mrs. Bryant or was she able to in anyway i dont think she of course the fbi was in charge. He told me she wanted immunity. She wouldnt talk but wanted immunity. Interesting. They wouldnt give it to her. Right, right. Interesting. Huh. How did you feel at the end of that couple of years, having thats a lot to go through. Well, i was greatly disappointed that, you know, you just indict her, make her talk. Give her something to think about. But they didnt do it. From what i understand joyce childs didnt present the gays before the grand jury. It was one of her associates. And i dont know whether she was forceful or persuasive in her arguments or what. Another part of the long legacy of this case that will take you to washington subsequent then in on several occasions and thats what some persons call the till bill. Can you talk about the genesis of that legislation and kind of your perspective on its course and its form . Well, it started with evan sykes out of kansas city, missouri. He pursued the case and apparently he had connection with the senator from kansas city and they pursued to get the till bill passed, a bill thats designed to set aside funding to go after cold cases that has not been settled and they began to pursue that. They began to talk about it. I probably felt the same way when they said were going to try to reopen the case, i said it will never happen. As they began to pursue and phone calls were made and one day i got a call and said they are going to have a vote on the till bill, can you come to washington. So my wife and i we jumped in our car and we drove to washington and we were sitting in the gallery when they were debating the bill, but that day it wasnt passed. One hold out senator and later on a few months later they came together and they passed the till bill, setting aside i think a Million Dollars to go after cold cases in honor of emmett till. I think this is great legislation because a young man was killed for no reason at all and this is one way to remember him. To show the world that the other thing i was locking for, i doubt it would happen, the state of mississippi or the county come out and say the verdict was unjust. I dont think they have enough nerve to say that. Even if they dont have enough nerve, just give me the permission for me to say it for them. Ill speak for them. Ill tell them the verdict was upjust. If the verdict was just, if there was a guilty verdict, we wouldnt be sitting here today talking about emmett till. We would have forgotten about it by now. But because of that verdict emmetts memory and legacy is still alive. I want to ask about, youve done ask you about your perspective on both james hicks and William Bradford hughy hicks being an africanamerican journalist who covered the case in summer in 55 for the black press and then hughy who wrote a piece in the january 56 issue of look magazine. James hicks, hes the black reporter i think at the time, he worked for africanamerican press. And he put out im not sure exactly when he came out with this. Given my daddys testimony that my daddy stood up, pointed to j. W. Milan and said die he. Thats what my dad said. My daddy didnt talk like that. I have a copy of the trial transcript. My dad stood up and said there se. And thats mr. Bryant sitting next to him. Things like that. James hicks said he helped my daddy escape mississippi in a coffin. He began to describe to reporters or someone from Washington University in st. Louis there how that he and evers was helping my daddy these cape, how fast he was driving one way. I dont know why he knew all of this. And that they had put my daddy in a coffin and drove him to memphis, tennessee to catch the train there. So i asked the question, i said, there were three sons there. How did they get out . Did they have four coffins . So its inaccuracies like this that im trying to correct. James hicks why did he say that . I said he wanted the world to think he was an expert on emmett till case and he came up with that preposterous idea. William bradford hughy, i have no confidence in his writing when he wrote a piece and said that he took one look at my mother and realized she was uneducated. Then he said that he interviewed us here and we showed him where bryant lived. His white girlfriend lived. And we were discussing did he ever go to bed with her. I said get out of here. We never talked to him. He never interviewed with us. I dont know how much money he made off of it but these things he put out there. So i dont believe practically anything he said. Even the interview with bryant and milan. I dont believe all he said about what took place. I dont need him to say that to convince me that they killed emmett till. I didnt need that. I knew that before he wrote that piece. But why he did it, some say he was a checkbook journalist, whatever that means. But he did it. He put a lot of inaccuracies out there. Im trying to correct it. Set the record straight. I just got a call from a lady who wanted me to endorse a play in virginia, hampton, virginia. She told me what was in the play. I said i dont endorse stuff thats not true. I will not speak to the press to give you any publicity on that because they had in this play that emmett was trying to say bubble gum and that we put him up to doing what he did. She thanked me. She said youre awfully brave. I dont have to be brave to say that. Ill tell you the way it is. If its not true im not going to endorse it. Tell the truth or shut up. Theres another one of these inaccuracies and its an important one and i want to ask you about it. There was even an account that circulated that your brother maurice had taken had been persuaded of 50 cent store credit by the bryant store to assist in locating your house. Right. I read that in a magazine, 1995. I think thats the first time ive seen that in print. I was shocked. I was shocked that that was out there that maurice for 50 cent store credit would show them where we live. All the reports i heard bryant and milan wasnt home from that wednesday night until that friday night. But this is not true. We had no credit at bryants store. We hardly ever went in there. The other stores hadnt been open he was going somewhere else. But that was the only store open that night. Trust me, no credit. Cash only. As you think back on how you make your way with all of this, can you talk a little bit about how are you view of this, of the indispensability of nonviolence became your perspective on this question and how you think about that issue now . Well, what happened at age 24 when dr. King came to town in 1966, he wanted us to march. I said no way. I wasnt a proponent of nonviolence at the time. I thought that you have a right to protect yourself, to fight back. But then at age 24 i was, after i dont know if we had a fight or what that night. No one was seriously hurt. Sitting in a tavern about 2 00 a. M. And i heard this voice, it wasnt an audible voice but i heard this voice. A lot of people say oh he didnt say he loved me or he didnt say i know what youve been through. But this is what i heard. He said if you die in your sins youre going to hell and that changed my life forever. Within two weeks i havent had a drink since that was 1967. February, 1967. I took my cigarette, through them in the garbage. I called my girlfriend over to my house. I laid her off. Quit her. Because church back then couldnt kiss a girl, what are you going to do with her . I just committed my life to christ and i would catch the bus and go to chicago to stay in a hot Church Service because when i was out in the world i was having so much fun that i knew that if i had gone back i would never make it back and ever is in then i never have really a fight. Ive been in a couple of tussles, a couple of young boys you know how 16yearolds are, they rise up and reflection. I didnt hit them i just grabbed them. Put a chokehold on them and they couldnt get away. Embarrassed them. Thats about all. Ive been walk being with jesus christ since 1967 and that changed my perspective to love your enemy, love one another, treat others as you wanted to be treated and thats the way i live now. I treat others the way i want to be treated. Youve written that it became necessary for to you do something that was very difficult but you felt necessary for you and that was to forgive bryant and milan and im wondering what you mean exactly when you say that and how and what precisely you think about in your faith and sense of ethics what does it mean to forgive them in a context like this. They did a great crime against my family, against emmett and when things like that happen to you, you want vengeance. You want to get even. Usually you cant get even with people who committed this crime against you and youll do it to somebody else and youll do that until you are able to forgive those people for doing it. Forgiveness in a sense that im not saying that justice shouldnt come your way. Forgiveness in the sense that im not going to pursue for vengeance, ill leave vengeance to almighty god and justice to the federal government and ill use the rest of my life because i dont want to get up i know a lot of people dont believe in heaven or hell or final judgment i dont want to get up in judgment and i have something against him. I dont want that to happen. God said if you dont forgive them i wont forgive you. I heard it explained different ways and whatnot. But its a difficult process, its not something thats going to happen overnight. Its something that as you submit your will god will help you through it. Pretty soon you forget about, you know, the hurt, the anger, and whatnot and the vengeance. You dont seek vengeance now, you seek justice. Thats what i mean by forgiveness. This is a difficult question to answer, but what set of emotions do you feel when you think back about all of this . Whats the mixture of feelings that you have . It depends on what brain cells are feeling. I was just in houston about a month ago, i smelled the hon honeysuckle. I said to my nephew thats honeysuckle. He said whats that. But that smell of that flower brings back the time i lived in mississippi. A certain noise, a car going down the street because i lived there at night and every car i heard i thought it was j. W. Milan bringing emmett back. It brings back emotions. When things bad happen to you, your heart is broken. Its shattered. And god has to heal that. But in each broken heart, i love to tell the kids this, especially the little ones, when you have a broken heart, the heart heals but it leaves scar tissue and a certain bump will bring back that night. It will bring back the hurt. It will bring back the grief that we had but it will past. But it still comes back. But i feel that if i hadnt foregiven these people, when it came back i would try to act it out on probably someone else. Thats the value of forgiveness and i tell the kids, i said theres a story in the old testament, 18th chapter of jeremiah, where the lord sent jeremiah to the Potters House. He said im going to cause you to hear my word there. He saw the potter making a vessel and the vessel was marred in his hand. I was marred but i went to the Potters House and the potter made me over again and now im able to smile. How do you measure the wider legacy of the emmett till case in our nations history and our sense of transition or some measure of transition in our Race Relations and our habits and morays and opinions. Ive seen a lot of changes. The emmett till case brought a lot of changes in the laws, federal law mostly. Thank god federal law trumps state law. Still a lot of changes there. Mens heart, i dont see too much change there. Laws cant change a mans heart. Relationship is better. I see things happening now that i never dreamed that would happen that i dont know whether its good or bad. But its happening. Its getting better. But then i see racism is alive, like ive said many time. Once youve seen a water moccassin you know. Under jim crow system it was in your face it was forced upon you. Even if you had the money you couldnt move to a better neighborhood. Now in order to have the better life in america you have to have the money. But its getting better. As each generation comes on the scene, they see the injustices that have taken place and they hear about emmett, hopefully because a lot of the states are trying to bury that. They dont want, the School System dont want that known to their children. They are trying to bury it. Once they find out what happened in 1955 to emmett till they are horrified and they promised and they make it their life legacy to bring about a change. Bring about a change. Like the, i dont know the gentlemans name that prosecuted the ku klux klan man that burned that church. Its happening. Its taking place. Slowly. But hopefully economic plight now doesnt slow it down. It has a lot to do with it also. You mentioned the honeysuckle in houston. Do you ever, have you ever felt an impulse to go back to mississippi. Does that call you at all . Repeat the question. Sure. You mentioned honeysuckle down in houston and how it provoked this memory of mississippi. In all these years have you ever felt any impulse to go back to mississippi. To live . To live, to visit. I go back to visit. I know you do. I guess in a way what im asking more directly put is when you think of that place, whats the mix of feelings . Well, its in one sense a place of horror but another sense it was a place where i was born and raised and all of my childhood, the good memories, they are still there. And the bad memories. And if i go down a dark filled road my wife says a whole new spirit comes over me. I told her one day im from this dirt. But to live, i dont think so. I wouldnt want to. Its Something Like florida. Good place to visit, i dont want to live there. Not trying to put florida in the sense of, but its the sense of beautiful there but then here come the bugs. Mr. Wright, youve been so generous with all your time and accommodating us, i just want to check in with you one last time, are there things that we havent talked about that you would like to finish up here with today . Oh, i talk about it, finish up with the young people. Go to school, listen to your teacher. Respect your elders. Love one another. Fight for one another. You can change the system. What i see coming is horrible. But hopefully somebody will wake up and say hey were in this together. We saw some things that took place in chicago this year, the chicago police. But especially the bartender that was beaten by this one policeman. Im sitting here horrified how they are trying to get this one guy off. I cant believe this. It doesnt matter to me whether youre black, whether youre white. If you commit the crime you should do the time. Identify seen cases down through the years black men commit crime and got away with it. I said its not right. Its not right. You do the crime, do the time