Armed services subcommittee. Mr. Gallagher the subcommittee will come to order. I ask everyone to be mindful of our committee rules. We start on time. U. S. Language the average american can understand. And we stick to the fiveminute rule, including on witness responses. With that, good morning, everyone, thank you for being here today for our hearing on the department of defenses cyberspace activities. We ask a lot from the department in this space. From securely operating networks and inherently insecure Weapons Systems to assisting small and large systems. More important than anything else is how prepared and capable we are to hold our adversaries at risk. Ive expressed my concerns about the departments pace for modernizing and growing the ships, aircraft and other weapons for a fight with china. If we accept that we need more time, it is my genuine belief that our ability to robustly use information and Cyber Operations should provide us with the opportunity to buy time to maneuver for our kinetic forces. While there have been some signs of progress such as the first delivery of a budget built through cybercom commanders enhanced Budget Authority there are wide gaps between where we are and where we need to be soon. There are issues like force readiness, lack of support and the shortcomings in acquisition of Cyber Capabilities that continue to plague the cyber force. These problems arent new and its remarkable how much effort congress has expended on pulling and pushing the department to embrace the promise of Cyber Operations. Since 2013, congress has tried to address force design and readiness through 24 different pieces of legislation. 24. Over that same period we tried to address the civilian and military cyber work force dilemma 45 times. Cybercom acquisition matters 12 times. Defense Industrial BaseCyber Security 42 times. And the list goes on. More frustrating is that the countrys collective capabilities and readiness are seemingly no better off because of it. In the words of albert einstein, insanity is doing the same things over and over again and expecting a different outcome. I look forward to hearing from our witness, dr. John plumb, serving as principal cyber adviser, as well as general Paul Nakasone, the seasoned commander of u. S. Cyber command. With that, i recognize the Ranking Member. Mr. Khanna thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you to our witnesses for appearing before us today and the men and women you represent. Thank you, general Paul Nakasone for meeting yesterday and for your ideas on recruitment as well as your suggestions on how we can continue to keep our nation safe from cyber attacks. Our adversaries continue to use cyberspace to conduct malicious activity against the United States, its allies and its interests. These include iran, russia, and china. I applaud the department of defense and u. S. Cyber command for the progress made in recent years. Certainly the change in posture in the last five years has been quite remarkable. As we have transitioned to a posture of defend forward. But we certainly still have work to do. China aggressively uses cyberspace to obtain economic advantage and gather sensitive information. Also unfortunately the c. C. P. Has been the prime mover of a lot of trade secrets which im aware of given that companies in my district in Silicon Valley have been the targets. Russia continues to engage in ma licious activities to its end and the governments of iran and north korea as well as malicious and profitmotivated actors continue to act to further their own interest. Our cyber forces are engaged every day in the whole of government effort to defend the country and given our decentralization and our focus on privacy, this task is harder for us then for many other nations. With these growing threats then must come increased attention. I appreciate that we are going to be supporting the Cyber Command and this president s budget especially in areas of force readiness, training, and support for partners and allies in efforts going forward. The committee is tracking challenges associated with growing, retaining and training the force and i want to make sure we can continue to discuss that effort in greater detail and look forward to some Creative Ideas you may have of how our committee can help the recruitment of first class talent and technology. As i said to the general i want to make sure that some of the most talented folks arent just going to i. P. O. s and become multimillionaires but also serving the country. I also hope to hear about the commands service like authorities including enhanced budget control. Thank you and with that, thank you, mr. Chairman, for convening the hearing and i yield back. Mr. Gallagher dr. Plumb, youre recognized for five minutes. Dr. Plumb thank you, chairman gallagher, Ranking Member khanna. Distinguished members of the committee, good morning. Thank you for inviting me to testify on the defense departments cyber posture. Im pleased to appear alongside general nakasone. As secretary austen said from the first russia is an acute threat. This is as true in cyberspace as any other domain. China has used its capabilities to steal Research Information from public and private sector stewings including the defense Industrial Base. Today in competition chinese cyber intrusions are the most prolific in the world. In crisis, p. R. C. Leaders believe achieving dominance will allow them to seize the initiative, disrupt our ability to mobilize, protect and sustain the joint force and to ensure p. R. C. s entity. Russia engages in malicious cyber activities to support its global espionage campaigns, steal intellectual property, and promote disinformation. Russia has also demonstrated it views cyber as a key component of its wartime strategy. At the outset of his fulltime invasion of ukraine in 2022 they conducted Cyber Operations against a u. S. Satellite company to degrade command and control of ukrainian forces. Other persistent threats arise from north korea, iran and from transnational criminal organizations. Together our adversaries use cyberspace to conduct attacks against the department of Defense Information Network and the u. S. Homeland. They do this to weaken our allies and partners and undermine u. S. Interests. Since 2018 the Department Recognized that it is not enough to maintain a defensive posture while preparing for conflict. We must defend forward to defeat our adversaries and meet them in competition in the daytoday struggle. Today the Department Campaigns in and through cyberspace to sow doubt among our competitors. We conduct intelligencedriven huntForward Operations to find our competitors tactics. And we disrupt malicious cyber actors through our operations. The department is also prioritizing Capacity Building efforts for our allies and partners who serve as a strategic advantage and force multiplier our adversaries cannot hope to match. The president s 2024 budget request prioritizes investments in all aspects of cyberspace. Our people, organization, our intelligence, our capabilities. The request includes 13. 5 billion for cyberspace activities which is an increase of 1. 8 billion from the enacted level in fy 2023. These investments will enhance the departments Cyber Security, increase capacity for Cyberspace Operations, advance research and Development Operations for new Cyber Capabilities. The budget requests 7. 4 billion for Cyberspace Operations including nearly 3 billion for u. S. Cyber command. These resources will go directly to supporting our Cyber Mission forces, protecting the homeland and addressing the threats posed by adversaries in cyberspace. Ill just say, chairman gallagher, i do think we are better off and we are Getting Better every day and i think the help from the congress and the continued investments, were more prepared, more effective and were integrating cyber more and more into our operations. Operating in cyberspace today is an essential part of the departments ability to ensure our nations security. Our adversaries continue to extend and evolve their cyber activities. They are exercising them in conflict, trying to degrade our advantages and increase their own. The department is committed to increasing our defensive and offensive cyber activities in partnership with the committee. Thank you for the support of the department and i look forward to your questions. Mr. Gallagher thank you. General nakasone. Gen. Nakasone chair, Ranking Member, members of the committee. I am honored to testify alongside dr. Plumb. Joining me now is the Senior Leader of the u. S. Cyber command. In the contested cyberspace domain, u. S. Cyber command acts against foreign adversaries that threaten our nation through malicious cyber activity and enable actions by our federal, private and allied partners. Last fall, a combined u. S. Cyber command nsa Election Security group countered malicious cyber actors and oversaw activities to defend the recent midterm elections. The 2022 election cycle proceeded from primary to certification without significant impacts due in part to our effort. Going forward, success for u. S. Cyber command will be measured how effectively foreign actors are prevented from achieving their strategic objectives. Last year saw significant maturation for u. S. Cyber command but our work is not done. In 2023, we must continue to focus on our people, our partners and our ability to deliver decisive advantage. We must improve readiness, bolster our reliance im sorry, bolster our resilience and maintain a culture of continuous improvement. We must prepare for crisis and conflict. We are doing so by executing unique authorities to build and sustain campaigns in and through cyberspace and the information environment. Through these efforts we seek to counter adversaries and competition, to deter conflict and prevail against aggression. Aligning efforts of both u. S. Cyber command and nsa is important to achieving these goals and is in the best interest of the nation. It all starts with people. The men and women of u. S. Cyber command working with partners here and abroad. We win with people. The men and women of the United StatesCyber Command are grateful for the support of the committee and congress has given to our command. I look forward to answering your questions. Mr. Gallagher that was a very efficient opening statement. We will now move into the q a portion of the hearing. Dr. Plumb, last years ndaa authorized a new assistant secretary of defense for cyberspace policy. Im confident the senate is ready to rapidly confirm a nominee. Have many conversations to that effect. Can you explain why were not seeing one . Dr. Plumb yes, sir. So the department is has taken the language from the 2023 ndaa and trying to make sure we create a sign for the a deliberate manner that that has the most positive effect. So what we are doing is following the template used to create my current position, asde for space, which is putting a ffrdc on contract to examine whats the proper structure, are there different pieces required, what things should be in this cyber asd ship . Were look at components of electronic warfare, other warfare, what should belong. Thats on contract now. We expect that that study should be done around september. But we are moving forward on it, we just want to do it right. Mr. Gallagher so the earliest time to see a nominee is after the report in september. Dr. Plumb to be totally fair thats above my pay grade but thats what i anticipate. Mr. Gallagher thats disappointing. We sat down a few weeks ago. You talked about the number of reports foisted on you by congress. On one level i agree. I think we insert far too many reporting requirements into the ndaa and it just grows and grows without cleaning out the number of reports that dont actually get read. On the other hand, we do it to draw attention to significant issues we think are important without having to micromanage the department with statutory language. And the best way to avoid reports is to provide us quick but comprehensive answers to the questions were asking the department. Do you happen to know how many reports related to cyber that the department of defense is delinquent on right now . Dr. Plumb i dont have an exact number. I would imagine it is around 10. Mr. Gallagher its 15 reports. Theres got to be a better way we can get answers to these questions. Im happy to work with you and your team to come up with that. Because the current posture in my view is unacceptable. Speaking of reports, you produced the 2022 cyber posture review that was a congressionally mandated document to be produced every four years. Three years ago we said the cyber posture needed to include an assessment quote. Assessment of the costs and values as a separate uniform service. Yet when we got the document it did not include that assessment. Why is that . Why did d. O. D. Ignore that requirement from congress . Dr. Plumb first of all, no intentional ignoring of any provision of the law there, that oversight ill dig into how that happened. I will say this, congressman. We are working hard on answering that problem. Its been tasked in the fy 2023 ndaa as part of the force generation study. Ive been involved in conversations with your staff on making sure that that study was going forward. I think its a good study. I think it gives us enough time to look at. I think its really important. One of the things it requires us to explore among other options is a Cyber Service. Mr. Gallagher i get that. I understand where you sit, but it is not the prerogative of the department which part of the congressional mandate youll comply with. Or to answer it in a different report. We want that assessment in the cyber posture review so i would appreciate you get back to my team on why that didnt happen so we can improve the process going forward. How do you think about retention . Its my understanding that over the last year, the office of the principal cyber adviser has had at least seven civilians depart, about 77 of the civilian roster. Is that a concern . How do you think about improving retention . Dr. Plumb it is a concern. I think creation of the s. D. Cyber will help solve some of that problem but i am digging into that in my role as pca right now and it is an issue im determined to get after. Mr. Gallagher i look forward to hearing about that. I recognize the Ranking Member for five minutes. Mr. Khanna when i got to washington everybody told me no no one reads reports more than one page. I disagree. I appreciate having the reports. That is the essence of democracy and oversight so i look forward to working with you on that, mr. Chairman. Let me ask you, dr. Plumb, given your testimony on the c. C. P. s cyber threats, how much of a threat do you think tiktok poses to the United States from a Cyber Security perspective . Dr. Plumb Ranking Member, i would say that when we think about tiktok as a potential threat factor, the things that come to mind are one, the scale, just a tremendous number of people in the United States use tiktok. And two, the control that china may have to be able to direct information through it. Misinformation platform. And then of course the data it can collect. Its the scale of it, i think, thats problematic for us. Mr. Khanna what do you think should be done about that . Dr. Plumb thats a great question. I know everyone is considering it. I think we need to be aware of these various threats and be able to quantify them and take action against them. I know thats a vague answer, sir but i dont know if i have the exact answer for you right now. You might ask the general if he has thoughts on that. Gen. Nakasone Ranking Member, coming back to your question, if you consider a third of the Adult Population receives news from this app, a third of our children are constantly on the app. Theres 150 Million People every single day that are obviously touching this app. This provides, you know, a foreign nation a platform for information operation, a platform for surveillance and a concern we have with regard to who controls that data. The department has already, as you know, banned the use of that application on our phones. I think the broader discussion obviously rests with policymakers now. Certainly this is a piece that our nation has to consider. Theres going to be other applications like this and were going to have to have some type of policy that protects both our ability to obviously to to protect us from an adversarys ability to conduct surveillance against us. Mr. Khanna is it fair to say you view tiktok as a different order of threat than an American Company . On social media. Gen. Nakasone i do. If you consider the difference between an American Company and our government, theres clear separation in terms of what goes on there. If you look at an application like this, a nation has already said theyll be able to touch this data any time they want to touch this data. This concerns me. Im sure it concerned most people at this they look at this. Mr. Khanna general, you had an interesting idea about scholarships specifically in stem fields or fields that could be of use in a. I. And quantum computing for the services. Could you speak to that and provide maybe some suggestions on what we could do as a committee on that . Gen. Nakasone one of the things this committee and the broader congress has done is create programs like scholarship for service thats been tremendously helpful for organizations like u. S. Cyber command and broader organizations in our government. Artificial intelligence Machine Learning as many members have looked at and talked about is the future for our nation. It is the future for our economy, the future for our National Defense. Any type of scholarship that would obviously focus young people on this growing importance of this field where theyre able to study it and perhaps give back to any part of the government, i think, is something thats honorable. I think thats something that our government and certainly organizations like u. S. Cyber command could benefit from. Mr. Khanna my final question, how would you assess our offensive and defensive Cyber Capabilities compared to china or russia . Dr. Plumb i think we are a premier cyber power. I think that the United States is, under general nakasones leadership in particular, is developing exclusive capabilities. I think one of our goals looking forward is how do we make sure we can, as the chairman said in his opening remarks, work to integrate these with maneuver to be able to prevail and win the nations wars. Mr. Gallagher mr. Latrell. Thank you, mr. Chairman, and thank you for your service. I understand youre a submariner. Gen. Nakasone i was indeed. Mr. Latrell youre a special breed of human being. Bless you for doing that. Dr. , Senior Officers from Intelligence Command organizations have been vocal about efforts to develop a center for cyber intelligence. No different than intelligence for the army or the navy. Theres an Intelligence Center for just about every war fighting domain. What actions have you taken to push for this center, if any . Dr. Plumb thank you for that question. I do think it will be important for us to make sure we are able to provide our operators with the right foundational intelligence to conduct. I think the general has a tremendous part in this. We are studying this question both in the Cyber Security strategy which is hopefully will be published in the near future. Its not quite through the secretariat but its on its way. And then we are also looking at this from an s t standpoint as well. Were approaching it from two pieces. Were not there yet. I think its clear theres a signal that this is what we need to be working on. Mr. Lutrell if theres something we can do to help, let us know. General, do you think the joint command and control two should be a part or under the purview of cyber com . Gen. Nakasone it is under the purview of the department of defense right now. What we add is the Cyber Security piece of what gets done. This is a broader element of command and control and the ability to fuse intelligence and operations that extends even beyond u. S. Cyber command. We have a significant role in ensuring what we develop as a department is secure and able to function in the future. Does it seem like redundancy, does it seem like if it was split or together that it would be more effective and efficient in your opinion . Gen. Nakasone i think as we move forward, as we move from design to the operational piece, the question is where does it reside. Right now in the design phase i think its appropriate within the department of defense and the office of secretary of defense and the joint staff as they move this forward. So migration would be beneficial in the future . Gen. Nakasone i think so. As we develop war games, blue flag and the training center, we will have a better idea of where it needs to reside in the future. Can you tell me how much china, russia, north korea spend individually on Cyber Security and Cyber Infrastructure this past year . Dr. Plumb id have to take it for the record but i would tell you one of the things we do see is a rise in both the scope and sophistication of our adversaries both in terms of their ability to conduct cyber intrusions and attacks and their ability to defend their data. Mr. Luttrell it seems to me and you both can appreciate that along with the other uniformed men and women in the room, cyber space is the next frontier of warfare. No more bombs and guns, but a push of a button, in my opinion, is how we will fight. I think china is projected to spend 31 billion by 2026, yet i think, what are we spending, 13 billion . I think my statement for the record would be we need to be spending more on cyber risk, cyber threat, cyber control on our side given the advancements of the nefarious actors around the globe. Would you agree with that statement . Gen. Nakasone congressman, as a combatant command i would never disagree with more resources. What i would say and you highlighted this, this is the future of where we need to be able to operate in all domains. Were seeing this in russia and ukraine. How do you combine what we do nonkinetically with what we do kinetically . Therell always be a fight on the air, the ground, the sea. But therell also be a fight that takes place in cyberspace and space. That is one of the things russia and ukraine has demonstrated to us. Mr. Luttrell thank you. I appreciate you saying that and you all would likely be on the front lines, so thank you. I yield back. Mr. Lalota thank you both for being here. And for your staffs participating. As you both know in 2018 the u. S. Cyber command was elevated to a unified combatant command having operated under Strategic Command since 2009. Cyber is a fairly recent, complex, and critical strength and vulnerability for the u. S. And the space force is also a very recent addition as well having been established in 2019. And while i understand the complexities of establishing and ironing out the nuances of these new commands, dr. Plumb, in prior statements made to our colleagues in the senate, you heard and personally spoke to the criticality of legislation for space force, specifically section 1602 of fiscal year 2022 National Defense authorization act which designates the chief of Space Operations as the, quote, force design architect, end quote, for space. So my question, doctor, is should such a designation be considered for cyberspace as a war fighting domain on par with space . Dr. Plumb to make sure i understand your question, youre asking if we need a cyber warfare architect . Mr. Lalota yes. Dr. Plumb i guess id have to think through what that would mean. I feel like it would be general nakasone at Cyber Command. I guess i just thats a new question for me, id be happy to take that for a lookup. I think the fundamental question would be, would it change anything . Or would we already be doing it . Mr. Lalota are we on the right track right now . Dr. Plumb i think we are on the right track. We are investing in our joint warfare cyber budget, and i think were on the right track. The general may have more to add, but im not sure that designation would change that at all. Gen. Nakasone youve highlighted an important fact. Not only the fact that Cyber Command has Strategic Command, but the fact that authorities, policies and capability come together in 2018. We demonstrate that in the defense of the 2018 mid term elections. Then as you see everything afterwards, whether that was ransomware, actions against other adversaries, whether or not its Election Security, this is the key starting point. And one of the big things that we were the beneficiaries of was this committees decision in fy 2019 ndaa to call cyber a traditional mill tear activity that allowed us to conduct a traditional military activity that allowed us to conduct activities like hund forward activities. I think what youre also talking about is, the work isnt done. When you think about cyber, we need to make sure a simulation capability much in the same way we have in other domains is resident within cyber to include and to reinforce the advances weve already made. Following up organizationally on how we are proceeding, the assistant secretary of defense for low intensity operations is responsible for Information Operations but the assistant secretary of defense for space policy is responsible for Cyberspace Operations. So my question is, can you explain the logic as to why these two separate chains are established for operations within the same informational environment . Dr. Plumb thanks, congressman. First of all, military operations, chain of command of course is through the secretary. The policy oversight piece, a. S. D. Has some secretarylike authorities over socomm. But Information Operations are not just the purview of cyber. Cyber is one factor for Information Operations, certainly not the whole piece. I think that the split does make sense when you take that into account. Mr. Lalota thank you. I appreciate that. My last question is for the general. How do you envision the Cyber Mission force maturing over the next three to five years . Gen. Nakasone we began with 133 teams. The secretary in the summer of 2020 authorized 14 new teams to be built. Congress has a authorized funding for that. Were in the build of 14 more teams. I think the first part of it is greater capacity. We are on a road to have more teams to be able to do more missions. Secondly is being able to play to our strengths. Our competitive advantage is information. So being able to further leverage Artificial Intelligence, Machine Learning. The third piece is about our partnerships. This is what weve learned. It is not only partnerships with the National Security agency but broadly how do we partner with the fbi and sisa . How do we provide our nation greater capacity and how do we partner with the private sector . This is what we learned in russiaukraine. The power of partnering with the private sector provides our nation a tremendous advantage that no other nation has. Mr. Lalota thank you. I will close by saying i join with my colleague from texas in the thought that you were on the frontlines of our next biggest battle and we appreciate the work youre doing. I yield. Mr. Gallagher mr. Mccormick. Mr. Mccormick in medicine we talk about a blind spot. In business when you talk about it, it can be something you get used to and you forget with the new guy coming in, you can see it. When we talk about military and preparedness, one thing that concerns me, especially in this arena, because its so quick moving, we are watching china in so many other ways go after our resources, go after critical alliances. Theyre outpacing us in port production. Valuable resources were not going to be able to get to pretty soon. What do you think theyre going to do to try to cut us off . In other words what should we be looking at as a blind spot in preparedness to outpace the chinese and the russians when it comes to preparing for the next battle in cyber . Gen. Nakasone ill take that. Congressman, i think its all about information. This is where our competitive advantage is today and our competitive advantage in the future needs to be information. How do we take information from our most sensitive sources . How do we take information from the private sector . How do we take the information from a series of partners . This is what we have done for many years. This is what we demonstrated as a kinetic force. This is the same force we need to demonstrate as a nonkinetic force. When i think about china and russia, our ability to stay ahead of them in Artificial Intelligence, Machine Learning, being able to leverage the private sector. This is what we must continue to do. Thats blind spot we never can look away from. We have to make sure were watching this very carefully. One of the things i notice when we talk about investing in the future, and i was looking at college, the government puts in half, versus the civilian. I appreciate your thoughts on combining military and civilian resources to advance technologies. One of the things that concerns me is we have a lot of foreign students over here were paying the bill on both through the civilian and government agecies to educate. And then some of them are returning back to china. Some are staying here from china in america. Weve had problems with this in the past as far as giving up our data to other countries. Theyre pilfering. Theyre putting a tremendous amount like congressman luttrell said, theyre putting a lot of assets to develop their own and then coming over here, and in my opinion, stealing our information. Sometimes were just giving it to them in our highest educated universities. I was a professor at georgia tech and i participated in an investigation into somebody who got put in jail for that. How do we prevent information from being stolen when we do education like that . Dr. Plumb i guess i would say i am in no position to comment on a University Hiring practice, but i will say when it comes to classified information, we need to make sure we have proper vetting for anyone to make sure they are not some type of threat. It does not matter where they are from for that information. The second part would be to make sure the information we are trying to protect that we are doing the most modern things to do so, moving towards zero trust, making sure we have two factor authentication. A lot of cyber hygiene is democratized all the way down to the lowest level and it is a hard problem. It is one of the problems the government is trying to get after by sharing information with private industries and universities on how to protect this information. Thanks. My final thing is organizationally, i had a lot of people stop by my office to talk about cyber, but if it had to be pulled under a Department Like the department of navy and marine corps, do you think it would be better but under the army or under space . Given its intellectual capacity and application to outer space now, would it be better to be folded under or separate as a department . Dr. Plumb i think you are asking about whether we should form a Cyber Service, and if we did, we would divest. First of all, we are taking a hard look on the Cyber Service to provide the best Cyber Operations. Our focus should be, how do we get after the threat most effectively with taxpayer dollars . That is how we should focus these, our thoughts and our approach. Standalone or folded under a Certain Department . Dr. Plumb i would not want to get under any decision. The gentleman from massachusetts, mr. Keating. Thank you for being here this morning. General nakasone, last year you briefed us about your forward efforts in ukraine in advance of the russian invasion. Looking back over a period of time, how successful do you think those efforts have been to date . How do you gauge the success in russia countering what you are doing in that respect . Is there anything that surprised you with this experience . Gen. Nakasone if i might take a step forward, hunt Forward Operations began in 2018 as we began to think about how to secure our nations elections. One of the bright ideas from a young captain said, why dont we send a team of military members to a country to hunt down their networks with them and share that information not only with the country but broadly with industries to industry can see what is going on . Since that time we have looked at 70 different networks. Four of them have been in ukraine. Those four operations, to include the operation that took place 70 days prior to the invasion, i think were extremely successful. It only were we able to identify the tradecraft but some of the malware, but also reassure our partners we were going to provide support. That amongst the Different Things that has occurred is incredibly important. Is there anything surprising from that experience . Gen. Nakasone in general, surprises with regards to our hunt Forward Operations, just how popular they are with a series of information. Every country i meet with says, can we do a hunt Forward Operation with you . So for the future structure of what cyber looks like in years to come, there will be a large component doing these kinds of operations. I am impressed from our Vantage Point because that was one of our greatest concerns going into this, what would be available to ukraine to counter russias invasion, and that worked. You described it is critical. Gen. Nakasone you asked me about surprises, and i think one of the things that is communicated to me by the young men and women that lead these teams to include the marine major who led the team into kyiv is the fact she told me when i got on the ground, she was meeting with three or four generals, sometimes Significant Players in the government that were well above my paygrade. It goes to speed speak to the leadership and capability of those who lead these teams. And those who saw the difficulties of what russia could have imposed there. The dods the first chief digital and Artificial Intelligence officer briefed us earlier this year about workforce issues and our current leveraging aspects of Artificial Intelligence is a core competency to help them execute their offensive and defensive missions. If you are not already, how are you integrating ai in this kind of trading training into the cyber force . Is it engaging because of some of the existing partnerships on the private side, is that something that is useful . Gen. Nakasone first of all, to better understand where the talent exists, you have to go to where the talent is occupying space right now, and that is our academic institutions. U. S. Cyber command a year ago started the academic Cyber Network to reach out to a series of 100 plus universities within the u. S. To talk about what we do and encourage people to consider government service. The second pieces we have taken a hard look at Artificial Intelligence and Machine Learning to look at the defense of the dod information network. Every single day, we have to have an ability to defend our networks, data, and Weapons Systems. Ai and ml is doing that. We need a broader base of this expertise. To the chairmans point, a number of different measures have been passed in the ndaa for this command. One of the ones that has been helpful is the cyber acceptance service, which is 97 that are civilian base is utilizing, giving abilities to attract top talent. The other when we are looking at carefully was passed in the 2021 ndaa to look at a series of hightech personnel that can come into our command. Those are with increased pay that will allow us to have those necessary to bring into command. In my own district with the navy, and the university of massachusetts, they have modeled curriculums that are right there, so i would like to see that continue. I yield back. Thank you. Which branch of the military maritime domain . How about land domain . Air force . Cyber . That is what i am talking about. We are here today and talking about cyber being the Fastest Growing domain, and it bothers me that not only do we not know who is in charge we need a leader for this because as we said, next frontier. It is going to be the front lines for the next conflict. When you think about how inexpensive it is relative to the potential impact and damage that cyber can do today, it harkens to me, Billy Mitchell comes to mind. General Billy Mitchell who rang the alarms in the 1920s about the importance of air. He saw in the future that we have got to fight the war of tomorrow to prepare for that. It seems to me when i look at cybercrimes cybercomms, it includes defense, strengthening the nations ability to withstand and respond to cyber attacks, and conduct operations to assist combat commanders and the joint force. That reads well on paper, but the third one is the one that concerns me because you can see how the navy is concerned about the sea and the air side of cyber. I strongly feel that we should be creating a seventh branch and making cyber a Cyber Service. General, i know you do not talk particularly on policies that are our job and you are just one dip in it, but would you accept command of a Cyber Service . Gen. Nakasone congressman, i would offer that is a policy decision, but let me provide a thought on this in terms of how we model ourselves. As you asked a number of who is in charge of special operations, special operations is not run by any specific service, yet it is the lead service in capability that our nation has. That is how we model ourselves at u. S. Cyber command, the idea of having unique authorities we are able to train and equip our force, and agility to maneuver, and from my perspective having commended now for five years, that is a good place we are emulating towards and making sure our focus is on doing operations against adversaries and continuing to build capabilities. General, you have seen earlier there will always be land, air, and space, and we made a Space Service because it is ever changing and evolving. I am glad we did because of the importance, but i would argue we should consider we need to get a report for it and strongly consider cyber and intelligence service. We have over 800 billion in the budget and 13. 5 billion is going to cyber, less than 2 , so it is something i want to ring the alarm bells on and that is something we should be considering. I yield back. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you to the two of you for coming out here to talk about this. General, i wanted to start with you. Over the last couple of months i have been engaged with ambassadors and other interlocutors from partner nations throughout the in depth pacific, talking about areas of cooperation we can do. Coalition building is critical given the challenges we face. One thing that keeps coming up over and over again is their concerns about their capabilities when it comes to cybersecurity, whether or not it is at the level that is needed. This is something i feel like would not only help them in terms of their capabilities and their ability to prevent vulnerabilities, but also in terms of our ability to work with them and engage in intel sharing or other capacities. When you see major partners of ours like japan having significant challenges, a lot of the nations and others, so i wanted to ask you if you would support or if you think it would be a good thing for us to do to try to increase our engagement, our efforts to be able to lift up their baseline of cybersecurity capabilities in the indo pacific. Is that something you think would be valuable . Gen. Nakasone i certainly think it would be of value and we are doing that right now. I returned from an 11 day door tour in the indo pacific region. The top topic they talk about is how to work with cybersecurity. First of all, through a series of exercises, cyber flag is our major exercise that takes place every summer. This summer, we will have 30 nations from around the world participating in this. Secondly is through lateral arrangements where we work with the force to ensure they invest in capabilities to defend their networks. The last piece is incredible success stories, the state Partnership Program the runs that provides an ability for us within the department to have relationships, exercise, and exchange of ideas with the nation. The state Partnership Program run by california with ukraine is a great example of this. This is the platform we have been using. That is really good to hear about the different aspects in which this is happening. Do you think there is room to scale this up and increase capabilities of engagement . Gen. Nakasone i do, and i am seeing it already where we had a number of different nations within the while also pardoning some of the vulnerable dust runner ability that we face in that region which we know is immense vulnerability that we face in that region which we know is immense. Our National Guard members, they built incredible fiber capability and one of those programs is something that is been incredibly fruitful. We had the 140th fiber art fiber operation squad in my district and looking at their ability to be able to partner with these nations, it seems like thats essential. I know that you race that earlier. Raised i know that you raised that earlier. The minister of defense from albania came to visit one of the first things he did was to recognize the new jersey National Guard for the work that was done. He knew the captain and lt. Col. That was leading the teams to help the nation as they became as they came under cyberattack. A look forward to working with you on that. Thank you. Thank you mr. Chairman. Remember in the 90s when president bill clinton said we were at risk of a space arms race. Our country put a little bit of a pause on our space work and the governing theory was if we pause, we could slow down and make space more of a safe domain and the reality we know is why only we may have caused, our adversaries did not. Russia, china, iran came more capable. I want to get your initial take on a similar pause regarding ai. We saw some of the largest tech leaders say that saying the advancement of ai is such that we ought to take a pause and the term and how to frame those capabilities. What is your assessment whether or not americas adversaries would follow the lead of u. S. Tech companies. Artificial intelligence is something that is resident today and something our adversaries will continue to look to exploit moving forward. Do you worry that if u. S. Companies take a pause, that that could constrain some of the Capability Development that you testified earlier is so necessary in getting people engaged in ai. I havent thought about that. That is a piece of policy that im sure we will be discussing in the future, but what im focused on is how do we build a bigger pool of people that have this capability russian mark how can we engage with academic institutions to encourage people . How do we continue to utilize this in the future . I fully shared that vision and i think the country may depend on it. I am not an expert in ai. Im just starting to use and understand the technology intentionally. It seems to me that if youve got big tech influencers in our country saying pause. Dont expand commercial vectors in ai, that could be counterproductive to enhanced engagement. Do you share that concern . My focus right now is being able to develop the techniques and tradecraft as we look forward to utilizing this important advantage. As you look at the ai domain right now, we would certainly have to concede there are some areas where china is ahead right . As we take a look at the ai, what we need to be focused on is how do we look at it in a way that we can use it responsibly . Not only for our National Defense, but for our economy. My question is whos ahead right now . The United States is ahead. Ahead of china . I do. What is your basis . This is being developed in the United States. This is being developed by a series of entrepreneurs and those that are working at. We should not take this for granted that this is going to be the way of the future so we need to continue to invest in it and work it and continue to utilize it. I yield back. Thank you. We dont have the room until 10 a. M. And it is not my intention to filibuster until 10 a. M. I will start with myself. Gen. Nakasone, i want you to imagine you are talking to lets say my grandma who was a great lady. She is smart. She is more concerned about her great granddaughters then she is about china and the cyber. In terms that she can understand, explain the threat that the Chinese Communist party exposes. Misses justice, good morning. Im gen. Nakasone. One of the things that i think we should consider is the fact that our nation is a nation that has been able to have a Strong Economy and a strong National Defense. Our Strong Economy is based upon the fact that we are able to develop ideas and bring those ideas to a number of different people and be able to have business thrive on that. It is based on this idea, an idea being patented and sold to a broader government. What happens if a foreign nation takes those secrets as they are being developed . Doesnt have to do the research, doesnt have to pay for. Due to the marketplace, that affects our economy, our jobs. That is what we are seeing today where the chinese have the ability to steal our intellectual property, repurpose it and bring to the market at a much lower cost than we can. The other thing i would say misses justice just National Security is important in the sense of being able to take information and secure it. One of the powers of our nation is a fact that we may not have the largest arming, navy, air force marines but we have the best because we can really do one thing and thats use information and operations. We have to be able to secure that information. When a foreign power like chana can get into our china can get into our data and Weapons Systems, that is what puts us as thats at risk. I want you to go into the future and i want you to talk to my daughter who is to a half and consider her a High School Senior and i want you to explain two things. One, what is your pitch for her serving the country in some sort of cyber capacity . Going to work for nsa. Number two, what is the basic set of cyber hygiene practices that she and all of her friends in high school should follow . Ms. Gallagher good morning. I what i to talk to you about the future. Indeed it will be missed gallagher for a long time. [laughter] the future is the job that you see today may not exist in the future. The areas that our nation is going to produce work in the future will likely be tied to our ability to work in this domain of cyberspace. Operating on years smart phone. Today, they are accounted for a good portion of our economy. As you think about the future, one of the things that will not change is the importance of science and technology and engineering and mathematics. As you look at the future, being able to specialize in one of those areas, it opens up a broad opportunity for you to think about jobs that may not exist today. Being able to think about jobs that dont exist today, you may be able to be responsible operating in the domain of cyberspace today and being able to do that is understanding the fact that what you say on your phone or text on your phone or share images on your phone, sometimes our shared not only with the person that receives them but other people that have access. Being able to understand that is very important. The second piece is should also understand what you say in cyberspace perhaps may not be only viewed and heard by one person. Be very careful about what you record and what you say. I think the last pieces understanding what you see on the internet and what you read today may or may not be actually true. Being a discerning viewer of what you view and see is part of being a response of a prison. I would say the last piece of my advice is thinking about government service. There is honor in government service. As your father has served, i would offer that he would probably communicate to you the ability to give back to your nation is something that will stay with you for the rest of your life. Thank you. The good news is in the future tiktok no longer exists because we will have taken action against it. Do you have a second round . Dr. Plumb and gen. Nakasone, what role has Tech Companies played in ukraine . I know the star link, example of companies that have played a role that you are aware of. , was made, i think that you have highlighted one of the major Lessons Learned is the power of the private sector. Whether or not its been a star link being able to provide satellite communications. A series of different u. S. Companies that have been able to provide cybersecurity support such as microsoft, this is the ability for us to scale. Bring the private sector is the opportunity for us to get to not tens of thousands but tens of millions if not billions of people with the information that is readily important and assisting ukraine today. I would add one of the issues and rep. Keating spoke to earlier, its been clear that ukraine has been much more resilient from a cybersecurity standpoint than russia might have anticipated. That is due to help from the private sector. Individual attacks have not had perhaps the effect that russia anticipated. The reason i ask, the issues of rejecting people and kids from social media. Thats the type of engineering knowhow it would really assist us and so again, i think its both the technology and talent that exists that we want to make sure is clearly part of the future. Thank you. I am excited to visit his district. I might need your advice on how to sit in. Hoodies and tshirts i can wear. Thank you mr. Chairman. From my district, my constituents asked me a question like is our military the most Formidable Force on the planet . Even when they talk about how aggressive russia is and how large china is, i say we are and all their voluntary force and we arent terrifying. General, you said the u. S. Is leading in the cyberspace. I was 16 or 17 when we had the fifth fastest computer in the world. Are you familiar with that . I am. In that same timeframe, we fired up summit. Pushed us into the next phase of evolution when it comes to our processing abilities. It was closer to ai or quantum. Free teen years ago, they said it again when i was sitting there. I question is how do i see, how do you confirm to me when you say you talked to experts in space, but what does that mean . To me, if china, given the timeframe from when we fired up summit should have onboard or online another computer that would have trumped us and pushed us back, so the amount of money they are spending in that space compared to us would make me think that they are ahead of us. Can you give me some information . If i could provide a little bit of information and take a portion of this in the close classified. Spending many design necessarily mean that you are the best and what you do and being able to integrate that is what really matters. Being able to take the intelligence integrated with a maneuver force to have an outcome is where i clearly see the United States has the lead. Not only in the fact that we can do it in the air and on the ground but also in the sea. Being able to bring information together that provide a key piece of information to a soldier, sailor, airman, marine is what we do so well and thats the difference in terms of what our nation can do. Presenting a defensive posture where the Chinese Government is reaching out. And thats a problem. That make sense . Are you back. Any of the members . With that we will adjourn the open session and we will reconvene the classified portion upstairs. Subcommittee is adjourned. At 10 00. [indiscernible conversations]