Transcripts For CSPAN3 Salems Witch City Notoriety 20170813

And she can correct me in a few minutes. So tourism in new england began in the colonial era. Ford was the first great tourist city, followed by a city near boston. Beginf tourism cannot until the 1840s, coinciding with industrialization. Salems tourism lagged. We were not a Tourist Destination. If we wanted to, we went to the scenesn a lighted that 1879, there was a Steam Railway which was in salem. There was also a horse drawn trolley that went down at six street essex street. There,ere gazebos down the methodist summer camp changed over to be secondhome ownership. The wealthy of salem lived there. A small secondtier tourism destination in the 1880s. It is not lost that this was the home of the witchcraft hysteria in 1692. It was always part of our history. Apparently, in the 1880s, both the witch house, and the old goal of the basement remained. It was on federal street. Now since gone. Theyre both private residences. And you can arrange to visit both places. And that was perhaps the beginning. The turning point, i think, for understanding witchcraft in salem was the bicentennial in 1892. And so, at that time, there were celebrations of salem more than the witchcraft. In 1892 i have got it written down here the city had two lectures celebrating the date. One was on columbus and his deed. And the other was on the park act. It was up at the Essex Institute. They held the first great symposium on the witchcraft trials, and the lecture by a harvard professor Barrett Wendell was were the salem witches guiltless . Who knew . [laughter] steve professional wendell was a psychologist. And he was applying the latest psychological theories of hypnosis, mediums, to the accused. And at the end of the day, the answer was hypnotic excess. So yeah, ted can comment on that later. [laughter] steve so 1892, salem witchcraft was on the table. Witchcraft hysteria was on the table. The Essex Institute was celebrating it. Or at least questioning it, having academic discussions about it. But at the same time, on the other hand, people were starting to come to salem to be tourists. Tourism was growing in america. Tourism was growing in new england. And there was a market. And salem was not shy. Probably the prime mover was daniel lowe, whose store is now rockefellers on washington street. It was a Unitarian Church before that. And mr. Lowe, you probably have all seen the witch spoons. Ted put them up on screen here actually. They will pass through. Steve theyll come through. But he was he made not only witch spoons but he made porcelain and jewelry that celebrated lexington conquered. And he saw this as a tremendous opportunity. And he suggested that salem become the witch city. And his proposal was accepted. And by 1892, salem was officially the witch city. And in this memorabilia that you see behind us, at that time, all kinds of kitsch was popular at tourism destinations, and we fit right into this regional and national pattern. We had artistsdistinguishing branding. And thats what it was. We are the witches. And we became the witch city. And so, wead mr. Had mr. Lowes jewelry, the porcelain, the postcards. Other unique things youd like to buy, like scissors and thimbles. It doesnt seem to be tshirts were that big then. Other than tshirts, we were right there. So, we became a witch city. It was not on the high school or thepolice cars until 1930s, so there was a gap there. And beverlybranding , became the panthers. And then the falcons. I think the whole thing has to do with the second tier of the industrial revolution, of a vast array of new products, into the , and wed just been to that. That was our niche. In terms of salem and its promotion, beyond the willows, early 20th century, carolyn anderton, 1908, the house of seven gables. Spent three years refurbishing it, then became charging a quarter a person to tour the house of seven gables. The money that the profit that she makes is reinvested in her settlement house and activities for immigrants to salem. It is worth noting that the house of seven gables was right on the trolley track line. And so, you are uniting the center of the city, and the willows, and the house of seven gables. And that becomes the core of salem as a tourism destination. The only thing to add is, shortly thereafter, you have hawthorne as becoming a major figure in salems tourism. The development of the Hawthorne Hotel, hawthorne boulevard, hawthorne statue in 1925. And so, youve got what are now thought of as two of the four major components of the salem tourist industry. The first being witchcraft, the second being hawthorne, the third being the maritime tradition, which was always present historically. And in those days, probably part of what is now the Peabody Essex museum, where they were more of a regionally focused institution. Am i saying this correctly . You are just nodding. That means it is a good sign. [laughter] steve and the last one is architecture. We have a tremendous stand of historical architecture. If theres one aspect of salems tourism which is not fully appreciated, i think its our architectural component. And over the years, the witchcraft component has a really surged ahead. Out of time, but i would like to end with the idea that i think that i think that the reason why witchcraft is so dominant in salems tourism is because of the issues that it raises. The subject matter itself. And aman tragedy compelling nature of the whole event and secondarily is the fact that there is such a tie between a popular country Popular Culture and the witchcraft trials. And that in Popular Culture, it always refreshes the general publics interest. And so, there is a tremendous tie between the two, where we are never allowed to let the witchcraft trials slip totally into history because it is always brought back to our attention through a variety of authors, television shows, plays. And so with that, id like to pass the baton. Thank you. Thanks, steve. Steve you are welcome. As ted mentioned, im a little far afield here, as a 19th century historian. So, i prepared my remarks so that i wouldnt sound unprepared. [laughter] as steve has said, right, you know, thinking about the history of salem as a Tourist Destination, those of us who spend a lot of time in salem are reminded daily about the citys status as a Tourist Destination. Were reminded when we hit the brakes, as a distracted visitor wonders to the street to take a picture, we are reminded as we drive home on a random wednesday in august and count numerous people in full costume. But we are also reminded when we find ourselves at the National Park service, watching watching boats navigate the historic wharf, when we walk down the street surrounded by meticulously maintained examples of 19th century architecture. There are many reasons to spend time in salem. Kate fox, the director of destination salem, the citys main Tourism Marketing arm, has stated that about one million visitors come to salem each year. And about 500,000 of those visitors come during the month of october alone. I think those statistics are so relevant. In 2014, a salem News Reporter named tom dalton asked a question that has occupied salem for more than a century. Whats drawing the most visitors . And salems community offered varying responses in answer to that question reflecting the , tensions that i think are at the heart of salems status as a site of historic importance and modern tourism. The owner of the popular Salem Witch Museum contended that the witch trials were the most important things, aspects of salems modern tourism, citing the fact that more than 300,000 people visit the witch museum annually. He stated, we are still the biggest drop in town. Other members of the community thought differently. But chief marketing officer at the Peabody Essex museum, which has emerged as a major Cultural Resource, argued i dont think witchrelated tourism is the main engine. Her response captured the larger kate foxs response captured the larger history and status as a Tourist Destination. She said, what were finding is people will come just for the witch trial history and get here and say, i had no idea there was a National Park site or i didnt know the pem was here. They will leave with a much fuller experience than they expected, saying i have got to come back. The tensions revealed by these varied answers to what may seem like a simple question are not new. Several of my colleagues have considered the history of salem as witch city, and will sort of uncover the way that the citys Historical Community has in variously propelled by the incomplete and exploitive focus, but also attracted to the trials as a unique feature that has kept the City National ly irrelevant long past its cultural heyday. So what i hope to do is to shift our gaze from salem exclusively to consider the city as part of several larger conversations about memory, identity and tourism. So the first of these conversations revolves around community identity. Historian john bonder has examined the connections between identity and public historical memory, which he defines as a body of beliefs and ideas about the past that helps a public or society understand both its past, present, and by implications, its future. End quote. Assigning meaning to a place, though, is never whether its an individual, Historic Site a , district or an entire community, is by no means an organic act. It requires specific and often coordinated acts of remembering and forgetting to create a unified narrative. This process can create tension between varying constituencies who wish to determine a communitys identity. The history of Colonial Williamsburg actually offers a useful parallel as we consider the creation of historical memory in salem. Much like salem, williamsburg was a colonial powerhouse whose influence and economy had waned by the early 20th century. In the early 1920s, a local minister decided that the city could capitalize on its historic legacy. To both preserve the town and revitalize its economy. Ed several investors, eventually catching the interest of John D Rockefeller jr. , who agreed to finance the project as long as the entire city was included, not just particular buildings or districts. In exerting control over the entire city, rockefeller gave himself complete power, at least initially, to articulate williamsburgs new tourist identity. Rockefeller decided to focus on the colonial era at the height of the citys influence and use the physical space as what one newspaper called a shrine, where the great events of Early American History and the many men who made it may be visualized in their proper setting. With rockefellers 79 million investment, modern williamsburg became Colonial Williamsburg. And by the end of the initial era of restoration, rockefeller had demolished or removed 720 buildings and reconstructed or restored hundreds of others to achieve a single, colonial, visual narrative throughout the town. Rockefellers unprecedented purchase and his power over the physical and historic landscape of williamsburg prompted one shocked resident to declare, my god, they stole the town. [laughter] it is a really cute poem they wrote. Williamsburg is, of course, a unique example of Historic Preservation in public memory. But the deliberate way in which rockefeller approached the task is instructive, as we seek to understand the more complicated negotiations around identitymaking elsewhere. In salem, there is no unified visual narrative. The citys first period history exists alongside impressive structures from its time as a wealthy port city, massive warehouses from when it was an industrial powerhouse, and the homes and businesses of people from the modern era. The choice of which aspects of the citys history to emphasize has been at the heart of the conversations about salems identity. With the local Historic Community generally resisting a disproportionate focus on the witch trials in favor of a more balanced narrative. Historian stephens analysis of tourism guides indicates some of the effects of these unique competing visions of salems past. As rockefeller was restoring Colonial Williamsburg, salem was preparing guides to accompany the centenary. Competing guidebooks demonstrates the constituencies vying for power to determine the citys identity. The guidebook, directed at salem residents, plays on a more broadly defined heritage and downplayed the witch trials. It said, we are citizens of a city which has a proud history, and we should consider it a privilege to explain our many historical points of interest to those visiting us. A competing guidebook, aimed at the tourist population, focused on, quote, reliable firms with which the tourist can trade and had a deliberate focus on the witch trials. More recently, the 2005 unveiling of the statue from bewitched identified arguments of salem in a new form. Im going past the 1920 cutoff date here. [laughter] the statue too. Bethanie i know. The thenmayor saw the statue as a little bit of fun, portions of the larger Salem Community objected to it. Salem Historic District commissioner gave the best quote. He said its like tv land going to auschwitz and proposing to erect a statue of colonel clink. [laughter] bethanie as historian robert weir reminds us, those who objected to the samantha statue which included a large part of the local community saw it as a trivialization of the tragedy of the witch trials. Others saw the statue as a tribute to a different part of salems history, the very modern association of the city as a Tourist Destination for kitschy halloween fun. , even today, the logo for destination salem, which i think is one of the things flashing up there, reflects the conflict over the citys identity. It offers a stylized image that can be interpreted either as a sailboat or a witch hat depending on your inclination. Of course, salem as a fun halloween destination, and salem as witch city, are related aspects of the citys identity. Several historians have argued that the modern association of salem with halloween can be attributed in part at least to the popularity of the bewitched episodes that steve referred to earlier. Alongside other popular cultural developments of the mid20th century, the witch reminded the larger American Public about the association of salem with witchcraft. And of course, the bewitched producers chose salem as the site for these episodes because of the Historic Association of salem and the witch trials. But as we will but as will sort of be covered today, the trials of 1692 were a tragedy where innocent people suffered and died. So, this brings us to our second conversation. How do we foster a vibrant memory of tragedy in tourist sites . Difficult, unwelcome, or unexpected narratives at Historic Sites can be an uncomfortable fit for busloads of tourists expecting to enjoy a beautiful landscape or a historic home. Museums and Historic Sites that seek to tell these stories often feel pressured to do so in a way that is still touristfriendly. This difficulty is further complicated by the, by studies of tourism that show that coming complicated, historical narratives without corresponding artifacts often fails to have an impact on visitors. So, museums that are sites of slavery, for example struggle , with this fact every day. Because of the lack of sleep because of the lack of slave material culture. One visitor to Colonial Williamsburg remarked, after an africanamerican walking tour, it was really just a walking lecture. What were we seeing on this tour that had any particular relevance about slavery . In the case of plantation museums, the lack of material culture means that the narratives of slavery often do little to subvert the romantic image of the old south that the tourists have come in with, and that is more visible, right, in the site itself. Of course, some sites of slavery also lack basic information about the enslaved population. And this, of course, is not the case with the salem witch trials, which as marilyn knows, are welldocumented. What salem lacks is not an historic understanding but a single site that is dedicated to telling that history using authentic artifacts from the past. I believe its the Peabody Essex museum that holds many of the artifacts, but theyre not on display. Many of the sites associated with witch trials are in whats now danver or have been demolished. Aside from the execution site at proctors ledge no. Wait a second. We, as a team confirmed what , early did. Bethanie well, i only had 10 minutes. Ted baker ok. [laughter] bethanie one spot truly associated with the trials is the home of judge korwin. Even that building has been altered from its 17th century form. As robert notes, but one couldnt actually see much in salem other than gazing upon markers noting where certain buildings once stood. The lack of extant structures or a single museum has left the telling of that important narrative to a diverse set of sites that range from attractions to more serious attempts at historical inquiry. Still, public history studies indicate that in the absence of material culture connections, the actual events of have likely 1692 been overwhelmed by other parts of the tourist landscape. In this way, the public history of the witch trials is similar to the public history of slavery. Just as slavery has been subordinated to a more marketable and visible gone with the wind narrative in plantation museums across the american south, the history of 1692 has become subordinated to a more general celebration of the macabre in salem. Sites such as draculas castle, the wax museum, nightmare gallery, far outnumber sites associated with 1692. And so, what we find is that visitors tend to come to salem and leave, learning very little about the actual witch trials history. And this juxtaposition between revelry and tragedy in salem brings us to our last conversation. The debate about how to reconcile sites of tragedy as Tourist Destinations. Most recently, this debate has raged about the appropriateness of tourists taking selfies at auschwitz. Discussing the string of photographs on social media of tourists in the barracks, in the gas chambers, or standing under makes you free sign an author has argued , auschwitz is no longer an authentic site. The savagery, the millions who died, theres no way for this to grip you when youre in the presence of sunbathing tourists thinking about where theyll have lunch. They hold hands, straining to take in all of the holocaust highlights. Of course, salem is very different than auschwitz. Im not arguing that they are the same. But underlying many peoples discomfort with salem as witch city is a pervasive sense that the halloween situation takes the halloween celebration takes away from this site of tragedy. This discomfort was nicely articulated by donna seager, who [laughter] bethanie who reflected on the juxtaposition between halloween revelry, the old Burying Point, and the salem witch trials memorial, an understated tribute to the victims. As dr. Seager wrote on her blog, desecration, the two most sacred sites downtown, the old Burying Point on charter street and the adjacent witch trials memorial, were completely desecrated yesterday. There is no word more appropriate, desecration. The cemetery is simply fodder for tour groups and photo shoots, and the memorial was reduced to a place where people could sit down and eat their fried dough or text. Drunken clowns, literally, sat on the stones we can all picture it, right . Sat on the stones, representing the victims of 1692, while smiling tourists took their pictures. Salem is a unique city, and both the locals and the tourists are grateful for its many interests. As a modern tourist sites, however salem has a lot in , common with other destinations, and its history can inform larger conversations about the creation of public historical memory and the role of historic tragedy at tourist sites, both how to discuss tragedy effectively and how to engender respect for the past while still fostering an attractive atmosphere for tourists. These are not easy questions. And all indications are that salem will continue to grapple with them for years to come. Im thankful for opportunities like this one where the community can come together to think about these issues together. Thank you. [applause] ted baker now that youve been quoted bethanie my apologies to dr. Seager for multiple things. [laughter] ted baker good response to your department chair. Donna now thank you, both of you. You set me up very well, very well. I see now how im going to fit in here. But the first thing that i really want to say, that i really dont have an academic perspective on this. I dont see myself as an academic here. I certainly am not in this storied company. I kind of hoisted myself on this panel because i live in salem, and i love salem. And so its really very personal for me. Its very, very hard for me to talk about this topic in a detached academic manner. I really love salem. And the witch city stuff just drives me crazy. [laughter] donna its very, very personal for me. The only way that i can sort of deal with it is to go back to the period where the doctor was, the period from the 1890s and 1910s, up to maybe 1920, and i dont see it quite as such a freight train, to use your reference there, that you do. I guess maybe i just want to see that there was a moment that it could have gone another way. In the 1890s period, in 1910. I see it as sort of a battle that was going on. Certainly the bicentennial was big. It was really big. It was nationally big. There were National Articles in all the major periodicals. There were sort of academic looks at 1892, and the rural that in fictional, romantic books young adult books, some of , them that i put in there. Oh. Did we stop . Ok. So it was big. There was daniel lowe. There was an attempt to have kind of a studied yield approach that was a bit more academic. And then there was a fullfledged commercial campaign. There is no question about it. Then after 1892 settled down for a bit, i was reading the guidebooks are great for this. I love to read the guidebooks in chronological order. To me, it just looks like the official guidebooks are trying to say we are a city of the china trade. We are the city of hawthorne. We are a city of beautiful architecture. And thats the official line. And they say very little about the delusion. But that doesnt quite seem to be working. And they see that the spoons and the postcards and porcelain are doing very, very well. And the house of seven gables and the kind of Colonial Revival Movement here in salem seems to be both during the architecture on one side, and then theres the commercial exploitation of witchcraft on the other. And they seem to be you have them in sync. I see them more battling, but maybe i just want to see it that way. The way that my prism, my window into this period because, again, im not an american historian. Im an english historian. I really focused a lot on the photographer and writer Frank Cousins. Who was an amazing photographer. Mcintyre scholar. He was also an entrepreneur. So he was somebody that represents both sides of this. He was a businessman, and he was also an academic scholar, and a photographer, and very much a preservationist. I really think he was salems first prominent preservationist. In his work, i can see both sides, you know. The scholar looks at mcintyre and the architecture, the work that he does documenting every house in salem beautiful photographs, beautiful street views, all of which are in the Peabody Essex museum and not digitized. [laughter] bethanie ted that is a theme here. Donna but at the same time, so i am totally into Frank Cousins. Im like, he is it for me. He is the vanguard. Hes going to stop witch city im convinced its going to stop in this period. This 18901910 period. This is when he is most active. And then i look at the archives of his shop. And whats there . Witch city wares. Hes playing it both sides. Hes playing it both sides. Hes standing up for the architectural, colonial beautiful city that we all or some of us want salem to be. But at the same time, hes making money off the witch trials. So if he couldnt do it, i dont know if its possible after that point. [laughter] donna but i again, i really it seems to escalate. I also, in addition to foisting myself on this panel, i also kind of made an early date. I really didnt want to go after 1960. I understand you really want to get after 1960. I really dont want to get after 1920, because i think things get just so much more intensely commercial after that point. But i think there was a window in time where maybe we could have made gone another route. And im kind of depressed, because i think that the train is out of the station now. But i wistfully look back to that previous time and focus my attentions on preservation. And im glad im not a salem historian so i dont have to deal with these things every day. [laughter] ted baker thank you, donna. Marilyn . Marilyn ah well, salem is finally going to get a memorial. And its been a long time coming, which is actually a good thing. In 1892, the bicentennial of the salem witch trials, a reporter was sent to salem, from some national paper, to interview people about this topic. And he interviewed a cab driver at the railroad station. The cabbie told him, when passengers had time between trains, there were two things they wanted to see. Where Nathaniel Hawthorne was born and where the witches were hanged. For the latter, they were probably taken to the wrong location. Guidebooks sent tourists to the top of gallows hill, and other that street atlases as early as 1874 depicted a small path on private land at the corner of hansen street at witch square. This is where they were hanged. Author and politician charles w. Upland had already declared, in his 1867 history that the summit was the site, because of a tradition, uniform and continuous. But he did not site his sources. There was, in fact, another continuing tradition, continuing in living memory today even, among some of the longesttermed residents of proctor street that the lower ledges of gallows hill was the actual spot. But uplands theory prevailed. In 1892, again, the historicallyminded community proposed building a monument for those executed and collected enough funds to produce an architects rendering of a threestory, 30foot high solid granite block lookout tower, which would offer a fine view of the harbor and the town while completely obliterating the spot. In 1898, the city of salem set aside 600 to purchase witch square because it was private land, but this project evaporated. The 600 were used to pave the ground in salem commons. Although witch square was still widely believed to be the correct site of the hangings, the landowners divided it and sold it, and the place is now occupied by several houses. Meanwhile, sindey pearly, one of my heroes who is a lawyer, and he must have read every deed and will in the essex count courthouse. Hes researching a whole series of articles on land ownership, up to the time of about 1700. And this 35 articles on salem alone, plus the adjacent towns that used to be salem. Article number seven appeared in 1901 and clearly labeled and on map, the lower ledges, what we now call proctors ledge, as the site of the execution. What i only recently learned is that his article caused a furor. Pearly had dared to contradict the late, great charles w. Upland. Feelings were still simmering a decade later, in 1911, when the Essex Institute announced a walking tour that would begin at the lower ledges where pearly would speak about why he felt that was the site of the hangings. The salem evening news printed an article which the newspaper titled actual site of which hanging. In the following day, they printed an irate letter to the editor, from one william nevins, who had also written on the trials. He was shocked. Shocked that the Essex Institute, of all places, would give any credence to pearlys theories, which were no better than the yellow journalism plaguing our newspapers of today. [laughter] marilyn this was yellow antiquarianism. [laughter] marilyn not to be confused with the working conclusions of real antiquarian, im quoting, by charles w. Upland. And there were plenty of reasons to conclude that the summit was the actual site, but nevins didnt have the time to tell you what they were. [laughter] marilyn nevertheless, 200 people attended pearlys talks and the walk was a success. A decade later in 1921, pearly published a longer article, specifying his reasons for why the lower ledges were the site. His oral history interviews with elderly locals who had heard that that was the site from people in their youth, written anecdotes from earlier generations closer to the trials, though still not eyewitnesses, including the future president john adams. The land descriptions in deeds and wills of the area, which matched the oral traditions, and most especially the logic of the lower location as being more visible, of easier access than the summit for a public execution, which after all, has to be public. In 1936, the city of salem purchased two adjacent lots on the lower ledges that were available for 500 apiece. And designated this whole as witch memorial land, a rather unfortunate title. It was to be a public area forever. Forever is right in the deed. However, the site was not marked. It was the depression, after all. And since then, anonymous parties have dumped trash on it. The site, the neighborhood, and a great swath of salem were nearly wiped out by a proposed extension of i95 in the 1960s. The same decade when historic Salem Incorporated proposed marking the place of execution. Another project that faded when no one involved could agree on the exact location. In 1976, during the nations bicentennial of the revolution, when local history got attention generally, robert booth rediscovered a crevice on the ledges that pearly had identified as the temporary grave where some of the victims were kept, thrown, in which pearly had clearly described as having been since cleared out so that there was no earth or artifacts in them. This prompted discussion of archeological examination and a memorial, but nothing came of that either. The contractor who owned the unbuilt land abutting the city land offered to sell it to any Historical Organization that could come up with the money or cut it up for house lots. Neither happened. In the 1980s, the city nearly sold the park as surplus land to a highrise developer, until vigilant neighbors reminded them what the word forever meant. [laughter] marilyn thank goodness for them. And in 1997, i found a clue in the trial papers that pearly had not mentioned. The notes for witch suspect rebecca ames hearing of august 1692 being brought to salem from , where she had to have traveled. And shes left in the house below the hill, while her guards pause to watch all the excitement, because there is a hanging taking place. From where she was, she told the magistrates only hours later at most she could see folks at the execution. So by itself, this tells us next to nothing. But pearly had already done that Massive Research and he knew where the houses were on that stretch of road. There werent too many of them. So she had to have been looking at proctors ledge, not the summit from where she was. And more recently, working with pearly and the above information, Benjamin Wray and chris gist of the university of virginia applied a computerized analysis program, which certainly didnt exist in 1997, to the areas topography and determined that proctors ledge is the thing you can see, not the summit. So now the city is landscaping the park land on proctors ledge, the correct site. And will tend to better preserve the place in order to honor the bravery and suffering of the 19 people put to death there. The hope is that the location will be treated respectfully by visitors who will likewise respect the privacy and peace of the sites living neighbors. So theres been a long tradition about that spot that connects us all to the alltooreal tragedies that happened there. Traditions that have at last been proven by science and archival research. And thats not yellow antiquarianism. Thank you. [applause] ted baker well, as moderator, i get a chance to just make a few thoughts on your wonderful ideas. And maybe ask a question or two and then ill turn it over to you folks too, because im sure you want to join in on this very interesting conversation. It is interesting, bethany, you talk about that one site, that one destination. As a matter of fact ill admit, this semester, when i was teaching my Museum Studies class, the final, their final exam essay question was, ok, you are the new director of a brandnew museum in salem, which is going to be built somewhere near proctors ledge and you have the chance to tell the salem witch trial story. What would you do . And it was very interesting to see some of their answers. But basically, i guess thats kind of in some ways the dream that a lot of us have, right . Because, you know, we have the Peabody Essex museum in town, which is an amazing worldclass library that were just so lucky to have. But its got an interesting history, right . Because it is this merger of the old Peabody Museum of Natural History and the Essex Institute, the historical institution. But when they merged, history very quickly left their mission and they became an art museum. Art museums are wonderful places. One of my daughters actually is in graduate school, art history, so i dont diss the field, but in some ways it can be very different than history in that that they arent all that interested in the interpretation the historians might have, right . And so what we see right here is that the Peabody Essex museum has the well, not the ownership, but they have the agreement with the state of massachusetts. They hold for the state all the salem witch trials documents, over 900 of them i guess it probably is. They also have all these amazing objects that are so important to the 17th century, including the portrait of judge samuel and so on. So in some ways, if they were a history museum, they would have the ability to tell that story and tell it with authority, right . And to tell it right. But theyre not. Marilyn with dignity. Ted baker with dignity. But theyre not. So in that sense, the organization that has the best chance to do it has sort of abdicated the moral high ground and the scholarly high ground to do that right. So im not sure what how we do that. I thought about this a bit, as i was in england recently. I always drag my wife to all the different museums and tourist attractions. Went to the york viking center in york, which is really interesting. A sort of controversial place. It is this really good Amazing Museum in york, england of viking archeological excavations. You also go through part of it, through this reconstructed Viking Village in this little cart ride underground. So it is sort of like, you know, animatronic vikings and so on. And, ok, you know, its a little bit different. And some people are sort of poopooing that approach. But im wondering would it be possible in salem to do Something Like this . To make a hightech, modern sort of especially virtual presentation of salem in 1692 and the witch trials tastefully, with proper moral authority, mixed in with objects from 1692 and replicas . Right . I mean it is, its probably its a dream. If anyone is out there who has millions of dollars to start such an institution, please come talk to us. I dont think it will happen, but i think id like to think that we need Something Like that to try to change the narrative, right . But what is interesting to me too is steve and donna both sort of talking about a late 19th, early 20th century, where it seems like, you know, for that brief and shining moment that was camelot maybe, there was the chance that even though we were witch city, we werent going to be witch city. That maybe it didnt have to be that way. It seems to be something i want to talk about this. I think there is an ebb and flow even to this day that salem has felt very strong and mixed feelings about what parts of our heritage we want to portray, to whom, for what reasons. Right . And even in the creation of gallows hill, maryland, there is this dichotomy, right . There is the ebb and flow. We want to build a memorial. No, we dont. Even if its in the wrong place, we dont want to do this. I particularly want to mention one thing. You mentioned about the 1936, when the parcel was finally purchased. Thats really interesting. I was actually giving a talk on proctors ledge. Emily murphy, a friend of many of ours, she is a historian for the park service in salem, very talented historian and curator. Emily said, wait a second. I think i know what might have happened. Because in 1936, the city of salem, she pointed out, was buying up tracts of land in the city for the creation two years later im not quite sure how they knew this, what was in the works with our congressmen in washington, but they were planning to create Salem National maritime Historic Site, which of course is the first Historic Site in the National Parks service. If you dont know, salem is filled with many, many firsts. So she kind of she threw out the question, i dont know. Maybe we could research this. Was proctors ledge purchased by the city as a part of that effort . And for whatever reason, you know, a couple years later maybe they said, no, no, wait a second. Were the national maritime. Maybe the National Park service said, we dont want to do witchcraft either, right . This is nowhere near the waterfront. This is nowhere near our theme, so city of salem, you can keep that parcel. I dont know if that happened. Dont know. But it does it is an interesting sort of twist to it. I think its like emily said. Wed have to see if we can explore. Maybe thats a good internship next year for one of our students is to research that. The witch house would have been a departure from what the park service is trying to accomplish from those Historic Sites. Which is really sort of the great march of american civilization. Ted baker right, the dead white man history in many ways. And this is not exactly that shining moment. So maybe we dont want to talk about witches. So but i guess thats kind of maybe the question that i throw out to you folks is this whole issue of witch city. And i guess, in some degrees, it seems like a response to this, it seems like its our own sort of selfimposed Scarlet Letter that we have managed to give ourselves. And that we may not ever have built that memorial in 1892 or, you know, or even in the early to mid 20th century or may not , have built it at proctors ledge until now. But to some degrees, to what degree does that whole moniker of witch city, is that our ownership of this or not . And i guess is that is the case, donna, maybe is that necessarily a bad thing . Are we witch city forever . And is that necessarily a horrible thing . What do you think . Donna, i know youre just donna its hard for me, because the camera. You know, those of you who know me, i would have a lot to say on this. And i dont really want to say it. [laughter] donna but but i ted baker i need to put you i didnt mean to put you on the spot. Donna but i will say that i like that idea, the selfimposed Scarlet Letter. I think thats how it started. But i dont think its that way anymore. I think its become more than that. I think its and i think that largely has happened. And this is what makes me sad. But outsiders, more than insiders, i think weve kind of lost a lot of our ability of selfidentity at this point. I mean, the Salem Witch Museum is not owned by somebody that lives in salem. Some of the largest businesses that are witchrelated in salem are not owned by people that live in salem. We, we tv land put samantha there. You know . Ted baker and donna has tried to get them to remove it, without much luck. Donna no, i just take we have i just think we had kind of given up, it seems to me. And its obviously economic. I mean, steve is exactly right. I would really like to see the numbers. Every if youre critical of any of this everyone says, but it brings jobs to salem, it brings jobs to salem, such an important part of our economy. Well, because of the cost of tourism, i dont know if youve been here in halloween, but there is so much security. Its also a very expensive enterprise for the city now. So i would really like to see the economics on it, frankly. I think everyone just assumes its an economic engine for us. Im not sure thats true. It might be true. But i would argue that its benefiting a lot of people outside salem as well as people maybe more than people inside salem. Ted baker so its not a good thing . Youd like to get rid of witch city . Bethanie theres been so much scholarship about the witch trials. You know, tad and others, he talks about i feel like that conversation exists, and then salem exists, but the two dont meet for the average person. Ted baker right. Right. Bethanie and thats, i think i mean, thats where i think a lot of the discomfort is, is that people kind of come, and they spend however much time here, and they leave probably not knowing a lot more about 1692. Maybe leaving with the impression that the accused in 1692 were witches. Ted baker yep. Bethanie depending on where they visit. So, i think that is part of the the American Public is very interested in the witch trials. Theres a lot of scholarly attention to the witch trials, but it is not happening in salem. Ted right. They come here and get there their vampire fangs and then they go home. I guess two, thus the question, it is interesting that you pointed out. Salem is this place that people want to come to. It is a destination. And its associated with the witch trials. But as kate fox would tell you, when they come here, theyre not entirely sure where theyre supposed to go. There is no sort of signal place, right . This is it . If you go to boston, youre going to go to the freedom trail. Here its like, im here in salem, now what . I think theres the opportunity to try to get people to get that story, and to get it well. But im not sure first, im not sure how we do that, right . Marilyn more history and less halloween. Ted more history and less halloween. Thats the other premise thats impossible. I think like most of us come i have given up, marlyn. I think to some degrees, maybe maybe you have to. But, you know, ive gotten to the stage that, oh, wed love to hear you come talk. Or can you appear on t. V. Or on the radio . Its like, great, id be glad to do that. No, no. We dont want you now. We want you on october 31, right . What id like to do is, okay, ill do that, but the first thing im going to say, theres no connection, right . Marilyn there isnt. Ted is there anything we can do, marilyn well, i dont know. [laughter] marilyn you can try to do the history. Try to get their attention with it. And hope that they at least remember the some of that before they get their vampire fangs and fried dough. Bethanie i think a lot of, steve you might know better than i do, that Peabody Essex museum stops displaying the witch artifacts, around the time that haunted happenings and all that, around of the 1970s, 1980s . Ted yes. A little bit into the early to mid1990s. Donna they had a little room over to the side. Steve with the documents behind the curtain. Bethanie so that feels like kind of an abdication. Thelyn sins they have sold essex museum, which was a history museum, shouldnt it be part of their mission to tell the actual facts . This is a rhetorical question. [applause] marilyn okay. People agree. Im not alone in this. Ted what do you make of this . Steve i agree completely. I think the opportunity is really for the p. E. M. To step up. They do have all the resources they do have. And they do have houses and buildings that they are not using, and they are refurbishing the old building. I think it is for them in a way, to say, were going to take a leadership position. There will be one of attraction, just one. Which will be an authentic, historical focus on the witchcraft trials using authentic material. And that that could stand in relationship to all of the other venues that are open. At least there will be some place for a historical, academic, thoughtful exhibition. I am sure it would be profitable. I am sure many people would want to see it as they do other sites. It does not have to be in the new building. It does not have to be in the gallery next to the moving art museums. There should be enough space in town for them to have an exhibit, a destination, which would greatly add to salems veracity when it comes to promoting, studying, or offering halloween and witchcraft at the same time. I mean that balance. To donnas point, tourist were originally pleasure seekers. They saw pleasure, and that is not necessarily academic. I think the whole thrust of tourist most of the time will be for pleasurable activity, including vampire fangs and fried dough. I think that will be undeniable. That will be the primary thrust of salems tourism. I just would really hope that some part of it would become far more authentic. Ted to get back to your point, when you are talking about the boosterism of the late 19th century, with the creation of witch city and tanner and shoe city. Where i grew up in worchester county, the heavy you have the big chair city. Or toytown. Leominster pioneer plastic city. Pittsburgh, if you go to the local tourist shops they have , pink flamingos because this is where they were first made. Invented by a guy there. This is my point, this whole idea of witch city was created in 1890s and it was meant to be a point of local boosterism and pride. Maybe it had sort of gotten unduly sort of twisted and coopted over time in most unfortunate ways. We can talk about ourselves forever that we have about 20 minutes. I know a lot of people would love to ask questions. Donna if everyone would like to step to the microphone, please. At even though you are right there, yes, right there. I am interested in steves comment that the witch city in hawthorne sort of merged. My observation, without any particular evidence, has been that hawthorne was introduced to sort of displaced in the witch city, to bring the image of salem to a higher level. Certainly after the salem fire of 1914, hawthorne boulevard was laid out. Then in the early 1920s, the Hawthorne Hotel was built. The house of the seven gables moved the hawthorne birthplace to show that to the public. I have occasionally seen a business that does not say, witch city, but says hawthorne. [laughter] was there a hawthorne cleaners at one time . Something like that. My question is, is hawthorne a part of witch city . Or is it an alternative to witch city . Ted great question. Steve . Steve i think it is neither. I think they are just on separate tracks. You had the witch city, which we have discussed, and then you have the hawthorne track, during the early to mid 20th century hawthorne became part of americas literary canon. And every high school student, right after the shakespeare reading, there was a Scarlet Letter. It was part of american education. It was celebrated as a major author. His house the house of seven , gables became a primary landmark. I think he was especially important in the creation of the National Park. I think the fact that he was a surveyor of customs, i think it was three years, three months and 12 days or something. He looked out that front window and he saw derby wharf. The original first chapter of the house of seven gables is the Scarlet Letter is about the house. The manuscript was found in a safe of the Customs House. I think that connection helped our congressional delegation make the empty Customs House the First National Historic Site in the country. I think it was political muscle, the depression and hawthorne, which made it all possible. I think emerton, she made the house of seven gables a tourist attraction. I dont think she thought of gee, we are witch city, and that we would be opposed to it or parallel. I think they said, this is an economic opportunity. Here is a Cultural Resource which we could develop independently of the witchcraft trials. I dont see them as combining. I think salem as a Tourist Destination becomes a basket with more than one egg. And i think salem probably has several eggs in the basket. I mean, it has the maritime, the hawthorne, and as i said before, architectural is usually the fourth leg of this. So i think it is a combination of things. So, although salem may always be witch city and have that earlier moniker, it will have other important places to see within it. And they dont displace each other and compete with each other. I think they just exist separately of each other, but they happen to be in the same place. I dont think they necessarily complement each other either. Ted next question. Take the mic, please. I am fascinated by the proctors ledge background and also this new memorial. One of the things about the site though, is that it is quite a walk from the main area of of salem. I was wondering, that is the hanging site, but has there been any discussion of creating say a marker for the site of the pressing at Howard Street, which is again so much closer to the center of town . Ted marilyn, youre the expert. She will have you first thought there was probably not Howard Street. [laughter] marilyn i wrote an article about this for a geological magazine. Well, it is somewhere near the jail or in the jail, the building is, i think the whole , block. But it is outside. People are watching it. So it is not away from the public. You want to make a warning for what people are not supposed to do. All of this could happen to you. Where the Howard Street Burying Ground is was someones back acreage. There are a couple of stonewalls in the way. You have to go around to get into it through somebody backyard. It turns out there was a pastor p pasture next door, there was not a house on it. Presumably it was used for cows. It was owned by thomas proctor. Ted i think you mean putnam. Marilyn putnam, excuse me, what a difference. [laughter] marilyn thank you for that. Thomas putnam whose daughters, the night before, had been visited by a ghost of his victim, Jacob Goodale who said corey killed me. This is only appropriate because now he is going to die too. She make sure the judges knew it. If they had to do this on public property nearby, because of the distance, i dont think putnam would have objected. And it was right there, location, location, location. Ted on what is now washington street, towards the train station. Really . Marilyn what is the . Ted church street. Kit is the other direction from the jail. Marilyn down towards the river. On the other lane, or . Ted the same side, on the back. I think the bigger question is, as far as memorials again, we are not sure about that place. It is private property. There are bigger questions as to what we do at proctors ledge and i go back, isnt it too bad it is not the 17th century, when the city owned the land. Or that they parsed some of it out. Now what we are trying to do is a balancing act. The site is in the backyard of a neighborhood. There really is no parking. There are also traffic problems there. Having said this, what the city is doing in addition to the memorial at proctors ledge, there is nearby parking at gallows hill park. There will be a Historical Panel put up in there describing the event and places to park. There will be one specifically on the whole proctors ledge in gallows hill. There will be another site nearby that is frankly a little bit more accessible. You dont have to worry about being run over where you can be able to get that story as well. And you can shop at walgreens. Ted at the corner of happy and healthy. [laughter] marilyn one thing this has done for me today is opened my eyes, i am from new hampshire, opened my eyes to the real dilemma the city of salem is in. I dont think the majority of people know this, how torn it seems to be. I think the whole halloween thing, sorry, is inevitable. We are a culture of theme parks, and i think at this point i think your point is well taken that there needs to be another site within the city that is dedicated to what we are here for today. Because people do see salem as a theme park. The other question i have is, is there a european counterpart to salem . Any city in europe in this situation . There is no equivalent. So you are the only ted we are the witchcraft capital of the world. Donna there are some that are getting there. [laughter] but they are late to the party. [laughter] and there just is not, in my presentation we talked about the huge witch trials and other i showed very sedate memorials. No there is no equivalent. , our american take on halloween too is different . Donna yeah. Bashing my bethanie we also have the difference that there is an active witch immunity who identify as ches herehere wit today. So, i think that is a difference too. Ted the story gets tangled with neopaganism and the Wiccan Community who refer to themselves as witches. Which frankly, makes things confusing. It makes for a rich community, but i have to be careful when i say. There are no witches. My students say, what about me . Anyhow another question. [laughter] this idea of a place to tell the story of the salem trials. In one spot i am wondering what responsibility would salem have to tell the stories of the lives of the victims who did not all reside in salem . Because, in full disclosure, i am from the Andover Historical society. You are talking about the desecration of graves, and this spot where something horrific happened. But i think about the places where these people were taken from, their homes and accused of something they could not imagine. What responsibility would there be than to tell those stories, as well . Marilyn fascinating. Bethanie i think that is where you get into, we talked about this a little bit in the earlier panel of the balancing act between telling a really indepth, complex, complicated history and telling something that is manageable. You know what i mean . For the tourists. As historians we always want to tell the whole story. Ideally that information would be available. That would be a sort of territorial interpretive decision of how long are people doing to stay here . What is the average experience going to be . How far away are we from the fried dough . All those kind of questions. Ted to me part of the problem, i know that marilyn could stick speak to this as well. Iave somebody people felt obligated to make sure in my book that i mentioned all of the people who died by name. Beyond that, here is another 150 to go. Again, it is thanks to margo burns, i use for wonderful list of accused. They got everyone in there in some way but the problem is in , this case, there are so many compelling stories. How do you try to tell them all and tell them well and say that yes, there were more people accused from andover than anywhere else. To me, we have the basis we could do it. To me, the stories are so compelling. And that is what people like in history, these personal stories. And they are from people from throughout the region with different backgrounds. Some who were born in england, something come from other places and arrived here. The problem is, it becomes a territorial choice. To me personally, i think it is our responsibility to tell their story here, without a doubt to even if they are from andover. [laughter] i spent three years at the academy. Stacy schiff was there at the same time, and she wrote a book on the salem witch trials as well. I dont think either one of us had a concept that andover had anything to do with the salem witch trials. They can be like north andovers little secret but maybe that is ownership process of for salem and the whole region, that this is our very conflicted past. Marilyn if there were a museum founded in salem or an exhibit, at least focusing on the 20 would be something. More is known about some individuals than others. Sometimes youre lucky to get birth, death, and marriage, if that. But, at least though, if you can andg some of people alive have others recognize them as individuals with stories then it , grabs you into history. Ted another way to do it is virtually. I codeveloped an app on the salem witch trials. You can take it around town and look at different sites. You can look at their biographies or an exhibit i cocurated in south or what, maine we are talking about thousands of people and you cannot tell all of their stories. The centerpiece of the exhibit is a touchscreen the good touch any part of the 17th century map and hear a story from someone who lived in the committee. In that community. So i think there are ways that we can do that, giving people the options of learning these different stories and narratives. If someone wants to write a check for a couple Million Dollars to get the ball rolling, talk to us afterwards leaves. Please. Back there. I have been saying this, i am not sure if it is a statement or a question. Ted i am sure you will get a response from this group. [laughter] i think what you are saying about having a purpose to the audience and like donna was saying they are not witches, and , having the audience know that. As you were saying at the beginning of this whole thing, how do you condense what you do into one hour . A onehour lecture . How do you provide an overview, and is that what your audience of salem is coming for . Or do they want witchcraftlite . Person telling that im thinking back to an emotive time i had in a museum that stayed with me. That was a holocaust museum, and again im not comparing it. , and this is going back to when i was a teenager, you got a card that corresponded to a living person. And at each level you found out more about the person and at the end he found out if they lived or died. And that really stuck with me. I was like it took the message home, it really hit me. I thought with having that message that donna was saying, coming back to the fact, are they witches . Do you want people to come away from witch city going its not really witch city . It is just witch city of the macabre. If you can separate the macabre from the actual story would be great. The kitsch can have the kitsch. People can come from that have their little hats, but they come away with the right legacy. And i think the personal, from a little time in salem has done the personal really shows that. , so again, it is a statement and a question. Ted any responses . I like what you said. Other questions . Done. Just an observation. Ted hang on a second. Hold onto that observation. So much for spontaneity. Can we get the microphone over here for him . Oh, she has a question. I think most of this came today to see what new things we might window we did not learn before. I think it has been a most successful day in that respect. I certainly, as a person who thinks of herself as a his a historian, like the idea of having some sort of entity that would tell me the true story is much as we can document of the witchcraft trials. I am a retired employee of two institutions that have been mentioned so im happy to see some of my folks that i have worked with here before today. But im wondering if there is a momentum in this group to be advocates of this type of thing. I think that is a question i would leave you all with. [laughter] ted thank you irene for that one. Any responses . Bethanie im just looking at donna. Donna you are. Ted it is kind of at uphill battle. Right . I think, to me i come back to, i really hope that the confirmation of proctors ledge is a way to trigger that broad discussion everything get Community Support for those kind of ideas. Not even a room full of us will be able to do this. It will take a groundswell of support from the community to do it. I apologize. If one is looking for a model for biographies, i suggest in petersburg, virginia, the National Museum of the civil war soldier. Where individual biographies are presented. That could get at the whole witchcraft episode, including those who died. But also others who were accused, and also, the accusers. Even other people in the area the judges. But those individual biographies are very effective. Ted how did they do that . Is it through multimedia, or through objects . My recollection, it has been some years since i have been there is that the visitor selects a profile to follow. It is not multimedia, it is a little older than multimedia. Ted some of us are older than multimedia. [laughter] but it is effective. Now they may be doing it differently but it gets at , individuals. And i think that the point made, finding the lives of these individuals can get us much closer to the whole story. Ted absolutely. We have time for one or two more questions. Charlie . Then over here. Your preference to the viking center, we have visited. Ted it just reopened. It is better they told me. May be so. It might be an interesting model. They recognize people coming for different purposes, with different backgrounds. The ground floor, if you will, is a typical walkthrough exhibit of maps, artifacts, documents. And then, as you mentioned, in the basement at what was the historic level is a disneylike , ride along and animatronic recreation of the Viking Village. It kind of meets those needs. Here is what is left behind. Here are the roaches and the documents. And then they let people experience it. Because, going back to williamsburg, people want to be able to see it to feel it. ,and that case smell it. That is what is real to them. That is what they remember so they leave behind the vampire teeth. Ted if you have not been to the viking center, they have a late train in the animatronics section. Ive had students sending a scratch and send postcard of the latrine feature. [laughter] this program is excellent. Thank you. So, i live in the neighborhood. I am interested in Frank Cousins. I actually live on a street, i think, named after him. Where can we find out more information on Frank Cousins . See some of his actual photographs . That is one question. The second question is as part of a historic neighborhood association, what can we do to help to create an actual museum that is not somebody screaming at you with dioramas . That is an actual good museum . Donna Frank Cousins is a little elusive. The Peabody Essex Museum Library has all of his photographs, thousands of them. There are a couple of other smaller libraries that have digitized somehow portions. Whenever i am going to use a cousins photograph, i always go to the Duke Universitys urban landscape collection where there are about 200. Are those Available Online . Donna yeah. You also have his books, of course. In which most of his photographs are in. Historic new england. He had an art company. I think i neglected to tell you his reach was national because he was so entrepreneurial. He had the Frank Cousins art company. Everyone wanted pictures of ye old salem. And he gave them to them. They show up in all of the periodicals in the 1890s, 1910s and 1920s. So, Historic New England has digitized his salesman book with all of his samples. It is all digitized. You can go through it and it is lovely to see it because you kind of see the mix of the ye olde, and a few things from the witchcraft in there. What can you do to help . I do not know. The work he did in philadelphia and new york. Donna yes, he published books on philadelphia and new york. The new York Preservation society has a little archive of his photographs that you can access online as well. A lot of if you go through sort of architectural publications from the 1890s and 1910s, his photographs are constantly popping up in them. He really had a big reach, and he was the go to guy for the old salem house that anyone wanted to see. Whether he had any connection to witchcraft or not. [laughter] ted it is 3 00. I want to thank the panel for a great job. [applause] we have a facebook question from peter. Are there any Historical Resources on the people who died in detroit . There is one in particular. The Detroit Free Press did a piece you can be featured in our next live program. Join the conversation on facebook at facebook. Com cspanhistory, and cspanhistory. Cspan was created as a Public Service by americas Cable Television companies and is brought to you today by your cable or satellite provider. Cspan has been on the road meeting the winners of this year studentcam video documentary competition. At Laramie High School in laramie, wyoming, gathered with family and School Officials to accept her firstplace prize of 3000 for a document on wyomings dependence on fossil fuels. In golden, colorado, Ethan Cranston accepted a secondplace prize of 1500 for his documentary on cyber security. Also in denver, the thirdplace award of 750 went to 10thgraders of Mullen High School for their documentary about digital theft and hacking. St. Thomas more high school in rapid city, south dakota is where audrey coat and carolyn eckridge one 750 for the documentary on racial inequality. Sioux falls, south dakota, kayla miller and Patrick Henry middle School Received a thirdplace prize of 750 for his documentary on the national debt. Aiden al eight bine won 250 for his document on marijuana. At Thomas Edison middle school, several students one. One for her documentary on the national debt. Won further document on terrorism. They also received honorable mentions for the documentary on global warming. Thank you to all the students who took part in our 2017 studentcam documentary competition. To watch any of the videos, go to studentcam. Org, and studentcam 2018 starts in september with the theme the constitution and you. Tuesday any provision of the u. S. Constitution and create a video illustrating why it is important. Next from the berkshire conference a panel of historians discuss black education in the 1960s and how these women transformed history for americans. It is about 90 minutes. Thank you all for joining us. Welcome to this exciting roundtable on black women and transformations and education. I am honored to be here. I am a associate professor of womens gender and sexuality studies at ohio state university. I am humbled and honored to be panelderator for this with three of my esteemed colleagues. The format will be each professor will speak for about 10 minutes and focus on their specific