Transcripts For CSPAN3 Rural Drinking Water 20150831

Number one concern and worry is Drinking Water and number two is wastewater. Everything else is a distant third. If theres a problem with the Drinking Water it has to be addressed immediately. Middle of the night, middle of the winter, it doesnt matter when. Every citizen and especially the most vulnerable depend on the safety of the water including families with infants, schools, our Nursing Homes and people with compromised immune systems. We cant have any contamination of the Drinking Water. Our sewer system also needs to function prop toerl avoid any probability of a sewage spill or sewage backup into peoples homes. I would say to you that this really does keep me up at night. Congressman tonko knows that right now our part of the state is buried in snow, just last week the frost penetrated the ground so deeply that we experienced two ruptures in our water planes that are 5 to 6 feet underground. This forced us to issue a boil water advisory where we have to tell families to boil water as well as contact all the schools, they have to cover their water fountains, the press, nursing home, et cetera. I actually call as many citizens as i can by robo call. When Something Like this occurs we manage the situation around the clock, locating equipment to excavate the frozen ground, repairing the water line, getting the tests to the lab and waiting for the all clear results. We appreciate the assistance of the subcommittee and congress in helping us protect the public and successfully operate public Drinking Water and Wastewater Supply through the various funding programs and on site Technical Assistance initiatives. My village relies on this assistance, i want to thank congressman tonko for sponsoring the act 20614 in the last congress. Small and Rural Communities support your legislation because it enhanced the current Drinking Water state Revolving Fund by further targeting the fund to go communities most in need. We do need help. Everything from financing, regulations, compliance and the various programs are very complicated for small communities. We dont have Financial Professionals on staff and often dont understand many of the funding processes. We currently have needs approaching 3 million for our wastewater system. We need new aeration tanks, new sludge drying equipment and new pumps as our facility is over 30 years old wechlt need to stop rain water from leaking into the system and overtaxing our capacity. My water operator is constantly explaining to me the need for these upgrades and his concerns of possible failure, however, we dont really have a way to finance it. It would triple the sewer rates to take out a loan for that much. You can see in the picture at the back of my testimony that we have some very old Drinking Water pipes that need updating or replacing at a substantial cost. The one in the picture is stamped with a date from the 19th century and they are still in the ground in parts of the village. We are concerned that without more water line replacement we are vulnerable to more breaks and crisis. You can see the other picture of a few ber collated pipe that is cloeded with corrosion and deposits to the point it is almost occluded. In my remaining time i want to emphasize the essential assistant we receive from the new York Rural Water Association and explain why it is so helpful. The association has circuit riders that are on call throughout the state that will come and assist us immediately including evens and weekends, the circuit riders are experts on the technical side of water operations. Just a week ago we called for help for locating a run steward pipe that could have occurred over any part of the 100 foot water line. They have specialized equipment that can detect noises and vibrations to locate the exact location of a break. In addition my operators received 90 of the training needed to retain their operators licenses from the new York Rural Water Association. We depend on them just like every other Small Community. Mr. Chairman, every a lot more to say but you have been very charitable with your time and attention to small and Rural Communities. On behalf of every small town elected official we are grateful. Thank you for hearing from us. I will answer any questions later. Thank you very much. Since my district mostly has communities below 2,500 people i thank you for those thank you comments because hopefully they are paying attention also. Those bells signal that we have been called to vote early. I think we will just break here. We as a congress i dont think are going to be in a hurry today, so we will all most of us will all get back here and hear the final testimony then go into questions so with that i will recess the hearing. We will call the hearing back to order and i will call to mr. Kt newman on behalf of the Rural Water Association. You are recognized for five minutes. Good morning, mr. Chairman. And members of the subcommittee. Thank you for the opportunity to testify here today. My name is k. T. Newman and i have been working for or in small and Rural Community Water Systems in the mississippi delta for nearly 20 years. I first started out as a small city water manager in my hometown of vaton, mississippi which has about 1,000 homes. I then worked for the mississippi Rural Water Association as a circuit rider for ten years. In this capacity i visited every one of the deltas approximately 500 small communities to help them with their water and sewer problems. Currently i am working for about two dozen small delta communities assisting them with their water and sewer utilities. I am honored to be accompanied here today by the mayor of one of these small towns, mayor everett hill from co mow, mississippi. The town of co mow has a population of approximately 1,200 persons. The mayors challenges are compounded by the fact that as a small town mayor he has a full time job as a truck driver and has to handle much of the citys issues on his free time. His community has little professional staff because they simply cant afford it. In cuomo the wastewater system is failing because of its age and inability to meet its current epa treatment. The cost to update their sewer system to be compliant is approximately 2 million. The cuomo Drinking Water system needs an additional 1 million in upgrades. The town was recently fined by the department of Environmental Quality for failure to comply with their wastewater discharge permit. Currently the cuomo Wastewater Treatment facility is actually discharging only partially treated wastewater due to failure of the Current Treatment works. Cuomo is just like thousands of other small communities in the delta and the other states. They need a grant rich Infrastructure Program like the Usdas Rural Development program and they need access to someone they can trust for technical advice, on site assistance and help with managing the funding application process. Mississippi has 1,234 regulated public Water Systems, only two serve populations over 50,000 persons and only 59 serve populations over 10,000 persons. More Training Needs to be provided to small town mayors like mayor hill so that multimillion dollar upgrades that will most certainly tax the rate pairs of these communities can be more readily understood and communicated to these residents who will ultimately be responsible for bearing the financial burden. Recently many of the small kmujts in the delta have received violations for a relatively new epa regulation referred to as the dis infections byproduct rule. These byproducts are a result of disinfecting their water to make it safe to drink. If these small communities limit or reduce the disinfectant levels of the water they will most certainly comply with this epa regulation, but the water may no longer be safe to drink. Once the dis infection byproduct rule is violated many small communities are forced to spend limited resources to report these violations to the consumers. In the town of shaw, population 1,900 persons the community was under a boil water order for over six months because of a broken color nater needed to disinfect the Drinking Water. The local schools had to buy bottled water for six months. After they called the mississippi Rural Water Association circle required Tom Abernathy they were able to come one a plan to pay for a new color nater, revise the towns Billing Program able to come one a plan to pay for a color nater, revise the towns Billing Program to accurately assess the water used by citizens and receive the payments, train the new mayor and town council, get the towns credit stable and secure some emergency state resolving fund financing. In closing, whenever a Small Community is facing a compliance issue, the complication of a new epa rule, a line break that they cant find that is causing people to lose Water Service and emergency from a storm or power loss, we all call the circuit riders to tell what you say it means and what to do. They have developed a trust relationship with small communities in their state that know how to fix things and are willing to come to your town day, night or weekend. Thank you for the opportunity to testify here today. Mayor hill and i remember available for questions. Thank you. Thank you very much. And welcome mayor hill. Good to have you with us also. Id like to turn to mr. Bobby selman on behalf of the mississippi Rural Water Association. You are recognized for five minutes. Thank you. Good morning, mr. Chairman and members of the subcommittee. It is an monitor appear before you today. My name is bobby selman. I am a certified Drinking Water and wastewater operator in the state of mississippi with an engineering background from mississippi state. I have been working in the water world for 25 years starting in my hometown in Lawrence County. I still work for the Lawrence County Water Authority in addition to 12 other small communities and Rural Water Associations. I want to thank my congressman gregg harper for his support and assistant to over 150,000 small public Water Systems across the country for sponsoring the grass roots rural and small Community Water assistance act. Representative harpers bill directs the Environmental Protection agency to prioritize the type of Technical Assistance that small communities find is most beneficial. This is what all the small communities in mississippi and the other states rely on for help with compliance, operations, emergencies, line breaks, loss of water, setting rates and training for operator certification. I am told that Congress Funds the epas internal management budget by hundreds of billions of dollars every year. Small and Rural Communities Want Congress to know that the only benefit we get comes from the small portion of the epa funding that is directed to on site Technical Assistance provided what we call circuit riders. What small communities do when they have a economy or water issue is call their local circuit required that they know, trust and know can give them clear answers. These circuit riders often come immediately on site to small communities to teach them how to fix their problem. There is not not enough in the field at the local level providing this accept. After katrina two of my small communities in Simpson County were devastated. Each served approximately 2,500 people and they were without power and water. People in communities can get by without power for a while, but not without water. I called the mississippi Rural Water Association circuit riders and they found an emergency generator for me and delivered them to the communities at no charge. Since the circuit riders know everybody in the state they were able to borrow some generate frers northern communities not impacted by the hurricane and have the generators delivered to get the Drinking Water and sanitation restored immediately. The circuit riders also have the technical know how to rig the generators electrical system, size the right voltage and even dry drooif a backhoe to big up ruptured lines. All this have assistance is essential to restoring water in an emergency. I called a circuit rider out to help me at a community of 1,000 homes to find a line break causing a loss of water for many homes. The circuit rider came with advanced radar equipment that can precisely identify the location of the break, which on this day happened to be out in the woods. Finding the circuit riders congress is allowing all small and rural kmupts to share this technical resource that no one community can afford on their o own. We think it is the best use of our federal water environmental dollars. With the federal zags of the operator certification under the safe Drinking Water act of 1996 state Rural Water Associations have become the main source of training for operators and the main source of continued Education Credits which are needed every year to maintain this certification. Many parts of the Rural America have seen move on leaving behind depressed economies. In my region the Garment Industry moved south after naft tachlt when this happens raising rates becomes overly burdensome. In the town of new labor, mississippi with over 400 people we are now being told that we need to comply with a new epa wastewater discharge permit that would cost 2 to 3 million. I will close with comments on the federal water Infrastructure Programs. Namely the epa state Revolving Funds and usda Rural Development grant and loan program. We are very appreciative for congressional funding of these initiatives and realize that funding constraints in congress and the nation, notwithstanding the federal funding, Regulatory Burden continues to increase and become more complex. We urge you to emphasize grants in these funding programs, low interest loans often dont help the communities facing the most hardship from federal compliance leaving the loan funds to be used for compliance with greater ability to afford financing. We are grateful for the funding assistance, it is t. Has allowed many rural and small communities to have Drinking Water and sanitation that would otherwise not have been able to afford without the federal assistance, we want to be part nerts effort to make the initiative as efficient and successful as possible. Thank you very much, mr. Chairman, and im eager to answer any questions at the appropriate time into thank you very much. Our last but not least panel list is mr. Robert stewart who is the executive director of the Rural Community Assistance Partnership. Welcome, sir, and you are recognized for five minutes. Thank you, chairman, shimkus, Ranking Member tomorrow co and members of the committee. I think the previous witnesses and yall have done an excellent job in framing the issue. As someone who has worked 20 years with hundreds of communities in texas both for the Rural Community Assistance Partnership and Rural Water Association and someone who has directed the National Program for ten years im here to tell you that the needs of small communities are many, the resources are limited but i tell you that the dedication and the determination of small communities to provide their citizens with the best possible water is strong and undiminished. I want to im sure everyone knows i wont repeat things that are in my testimony. I wanted to sort of make a few points that have been touched on, maybe i could amplify a little bit. One is access to capital. I think theres a real issue in small communities in accessing the Financial Resources that they need in order to build the infrastructure, extend lines to new customers. I believe mr. Gomez talked a little bit about access to municipal pond market. For small communities this is just not an option at all. Weve heard theres 53,000 some odd Water Systems in this community, perhaps 4 of them have the ability to access the Municipal Bond market. What they are left with are the two primary federal financing programs being the Drinking Water srf and usda Rural Developments water and environmental programs. So its really critical that those programs continue to be supported in a robust manner. We work a lot with Rural Development in their water environment program, they are the primary lender in rural kmupts, they have some 18,000 plus loans out with small Water Systems and as you probably know theres virtually no default on these loans. We take these matters very seriously in repaying the loans that are made to small communities. One of the things that rd has going for them, they have field staff in every state, they have the ability to work directly with the communities, the communities know their local folks in the district and state offices, its just a more a cooperative easier way to get funding through Rural Development. Rural Development Also funds both the Rural Water Association and r cap for Technical Assistance and training, a lot of the staff that work for me around the country work through the application processes and all the requirements that are needed in order to get a loan from Rural Development. Epa state Revolving Funds are also a very important part of the financing scheme for small communities. I think all of you knew as a result of the 1996 amendments to the safe Drinking Water act the state Revolving Program was formed and it was mainly to deal with compliance issues. If you look at who is out of compliance or where the most healthbased compliance issues are, 96 of those are from small communities. So you would think that, you know, most of the money or a big portion of the money would go to the communities whether they are urban, rural, small or large that have the compliance issues, but as you can look at epas own numbers perhaps 25 of the funding actually goes to the small communities in this country. We would think that a larger amount of money from the srf program should be dedicated to economically disadvantaged and small Rural Communities. Epa does have has a program as a result of 96 amendments that funds the Technical Assistance kind of program that both rural water and rcap have taken advantage of. Its not funded at the authorized level that was authorized 20 some years ago. We would hope that you would consider some Additional Resources for that particular program. I know one of the things youre looking at is what else can be done, you know, what else can we do to work with small communities. Theres a lot of other options. One of which both rural water and rcap work on is sharing of services. How can small communities get together, share an operator, manager, purchasing, how can we look at possibilities of actually combining systems if theyre close. Its very difficult and one of the problems the funding agencies have is that its easier for them to make a 10 million loan than ten 1 million loans that sort of hurts small communities every more with reduced Staffing Levels in both epa and rd, theres an emphasis more for the larger loans which i think adversely affects small communities even more. The regional zags approaches where appropriate are important but the only way those are going to happen is if you have people like the circuit riders and Technical Assistance providers that work for rcap that are out working with those communities to through those issues. One of the other things quickly is you talk about tools, id like to give credit to epa for developing the variety of tools and for working with Rural Development on tools. Asset management tools, tools to look at sustainability for communities. Again, tools are important to be developed for use by small communities, fwu takes a takes someone in the field like a rural water or an rcap person to bring those tools out to these communities. Also if maybe this could be handled in the questions, i know you are interested in wifia and some of the other alternative financing programs, i would be glad to talk about that also. My time it up. I appreciate the opportunity to be with you here today. Thank you very much. I will recognize myself five minutes for the starting of the question. Before i start, im in my 19th year, my First District was 19 counties, my second Congressional District is was 30 counties and now i represent 33 counties out of 102. We have really been able to access and use usda Rural Development and rural water and its really helped it kind of force a push to rej nalism and closing the gaps of water or addressing the challenges that small communities have because they just in neural america sometimes these communities are shrinking, they are not growing theyre shrinking to they are paced to keep up especially with new capital expenses. So thats in my area its been a very, very Successful Program and i just throw that out because i have great people work on that and they have done great work. Id like to go to mr. Gomez first. And youve heard some of our witnesses claiming that the Drinking Water state Revolving Funds are not being made available to provide safe Drinking Water to the needs of our most immediately communities. Is there a way to measure across the country whether the Drinking Water Revolving Fund is meeting its congress nael intended purpose or authorized purpose . So thats a really good question. What we are avail of is that the Drinking Water srfs are required to provide 15 of the funds to the small communities. Now, the extent to which states are doing exactly what you are asking, we dont know yet. I mean, that would be a good question possibly for gao to look at. There are estimates from epa, for example, that about 38 of the Drinking Water srfs have gone to small communities as of 2008, so thats the estimate thats out there. But to the extent that its meeting small communities needs, we dont know that. Great. Thank you. Are there any reports that show how fast this Drinking Water funding is spent, by whom and where it goes, including distribution to the neediest communities . So one of the things that we are doing at the moment is we do have ongoing work looking at the Financial Sustainability of the of the Drinking Water srf. So there we are looking at different ways in which states are managing these srfs and were hoping to identify best practices that states are using. That report should be coming out this spring. Great. Thank you. Mr. Stewart, in your testimony you state that the epa state Revolving Fund needs to be and im quoting, better managed to meet small system needs. Can you elaborate a little bit more on that . Yeah, when you look at the numbers epa has a difference in between the number of loans they are making and the amount of the loans theyre making, you know, and so the amount of the loans is not sort of the same as the number. Theres not as much actual money thats going into there. Now, the whole purpose of the srf was to give the states latitude to run who t. How they see fit and i think most of the members this have committee would agree with that but i would think theres minimum requirements if were looking at the high noncompliance rates of utilities, the problems with affordability, the problems with a small Customer Base is that, you know, just some greater emphasis needs to be paid to providing more funding for these disadvantaged and smaller communities. You know, in some states, my home state of fks has a lot of money now that theyre putting into water problems as a result of droughts, california has done the same thing, each state runs it different. A lot of states put extra money n some states dont. I think jao has done a terrific job of looking at some of these issues. Thank you. My last question for mayor keegan, mr. Newman and mr. Selman, can you just give us briefly your success on a state Revolving Fund versus the rus or do you access that . Why dont we go mr. Keegan first. Sure. We havent had very much success. We have had some limitations due to the average income of our community, weve been told its been too high and our average bill doesnt meet the minimum to qualify for the funding. Weve hired weve paid two separate Consulting Firms to search out funds for us and both reported the same thing. Thank you. Mr. Newman. Thank you, mr. Chairman. In my experience one of the issues with the srf as compared to Rural Development has been the paperwork isnt considered to be cumbersome and the added administrative cost in applying often nullifies the low interest which in turn makes the srf an option of last resort, which i dont believe was the intended purpose. Mr. Selman. Yes. Some of my systems we have discussed are srf, were drilling a well right now in one of the systems because it depends what area you are in the state but we were having trouble through Rural Development and the timely process of getting the money to drill this well and it was needed. The town of montecello we got a state Revolving Fund grant for a sewer project right now that we just completed. In our district, in our part of the state weve used it and its helped, but the usda seems to be more with the grants, some communities cant afford that much of a loan and the grant helps them that much more with the usda money. My time is expired. Know mr. Stewart wanted to ask but i need to go to mr. Tonko who is recognized for five minutes. Thank you for calling this hearing and inviting a witness from the 20th district of new york, mayor keegan. I appreciate you making the trip here today. Drinking Water Systems in the district that i represent and i think every District Across the country are facing significant challenges as they work to ensure that everyone including people in small and Rural Communities have access to safe water. That is why i introduced the aqua act last congress to improve all of the tools epa currently has to assist these systems. I appreciate the work that my colleague mr. Hamp were from mississippi has done on these issues and i look forward to working with him to get at least some of these changes into law. It seems every bike in my district there is another water main break, treated water and the money we have invested is being wasted so its dollars and water flowing out of those pipes. Mayor keegan can you describe some of the issues you have had in your town with water main breaks and the obstacles you face in preventing these ruptures . Well, we dont really with the recent frost drks when we have a water main break it doesnt always just pop up through the because the ground is so frozen. So we dont often know where the break is and we dont have the tools or equipment to locate the break. So we have to either call a Consulting Firm that could be 1,500 a day to come with special tools or we call the new York Rural Water Association, if they are available they will come. So thats its very difficult, we dont always know where the breaks are located. Thank you. You know, this is such a serious issue and one that will require more significant infrastructure financing, including that investment in technology. Not just Technical Assistance. Mr. Gomez, gao has studied the range of Government Programs that provide assistance to rural and small Water Systems as well as the need the systems face. What is the funding gap for Water Infrastructure . I know earlier you gave a combined total, i believe, for water and Drinking Water and sewer. Whats the funding for the Drinking Water infrastructure and how much money does it entail . So epa has estimated the funding gap and they have estimate it had to be 662 billion. Thats an estimate from 2002, and that estimate is based on the next 20 years. Thank you. Obviously the Water Systems represented on this panel i would think agree that more resources are required. So, mayor keegan, do you support legislation to reauthorize the srf and increase the funding available . You mention merchandise your testimony the need for grants not just loans and i think many of you mentioned that. Is it fair to say that your village has reached the limit of its ability to borrow more for the needed funds . Oh, absolutely. We really just cant even entertain a entertain a Municipal Bond at this time, and right now were only spending our budget items on repairs. We dont have enough money in our budget for replacement of old infrastructure. So we are looking for funding, but its been a struggle to find any of that. Srf is a available thing for you . Absolutely. We encourage the refunding of that. And do you also support efforts to expand Technical Assistance initiatives like the aqua act . Absolutely, yeah. Any we call on lots of different any Technical Assistance that can be provided to us is a value. To the other gentleman on the panel, any responses in terms of Technical Assistance in the relevant roll it might play . In my experience, Technical Assistance is absolutely essential in complying with the various rules and regulations of the epa, particularly because many of these rules are often complex and require innovative approaches. So the training and Technical Assistance thats provided by our state Rural Water Associations is indeed an essential component of compliance. And the other gentleman in terms of Technical Assistance funning and the srf . Very essential. We get mayors and water board managers, whatever, they need all of the training they can get. You know, the secretaries, rural water puts on a training for them. They certify them. Er bit of the assistance we can get is very well needed. And mr. Stewart . Yes, sir. The one point id like to make, Technical Assistance is important, we need to ensure the investment that the federal government is making through epa and Rural Development. The Technical Assistance allows people to go out and work in these communities to make sure that those loans are going to be repaid. To implement Asset Management program, the infrastructure and the materials that the utility has is going to maintain the top operating condition. We dont have to go back to replace things that could have been maintained to start with. The act i would cover would reduce some of these. I appreciate your comments. And with that i yield back. Thank you, mr. Chairman. I can think of few topics across the country more important to the one that were here on today. Thanks to each of our guests who are giving testimony today and also welcome mayor hill, and also, just to have each of you here is something that we greatly appreciate. And my dear friend Kirby Mayfield whos here whos been a great contact and person shark information with us. So were thankful for that. If i could, mr. Newman ask you in your testimony, you talked about the trust relationship that small communities have with circuit riders. As we continue discussing this issue of how epa should and could help our small communities comply with federal regulations, would you please take a minute to elaborate the trust relationship that or Water Systems have with our circuit riders. Yes, sir. The relationship that has been established over the years, between the Rural Water Associations, and the utility managers, the certified water operators, mayors and Small Town Council has been wellestablished over many years. Prime example, just last evening a Small Community in mississippi, their water well was down due to snow. And they lost power for a significant period of time. And the mayor of course, customs were calling, it was developing. It was quite a situation. The mayor contacted me. And i immediately contacted the mississippi Rural Water Association. And they, in turn, immediately began locating a generator for that town. And, thankfully, were able to get that generator delivered to resolve that situation. In essence, the experience is, if youve got a problem and you dont know what to do, you call the mississippi Rural Water Association. And theyre there every time to provide the needed assistance. Im also glad that you explained to some of our folks some of our members that we actually have snow in mississippi. That was a surprise to, i think, some. Me. Selan, thank you so much for your kind words and your testimony. You talked about Hurricane Katrina which impacted our state and louisiana greatly. It was the greatest most costly Natural Disaster ever in your states history. And you mentioned two Water Systems in Simpson County and the assistance they received after katrina. Would you talk about some of the tools circuit riders have at their disposal, that small Water Systems often dont have or have other access to. I think you mentioned radar equipment. How important are these tools to the survival of our smaller Water Systems. Very important. Before katrina, we hadnt had a Natural Disaster in south mississippi like that since camille, i reckon, 1969. We were without power, about 120 miles from the coast, and we were without power for 19, 20 days. And at that time some of the Water Systems had started putting in. You can make it without power for a while, rig up your generator to get power or something. But without water, you cant make it. Question called our circuit riders. They found generators in arkansas, helped us get them hooked up. We got water again. Same with the wastewater. We had lift stations that you had to pump wastewater, we hooked into those wastewater stations and got water to the lagoon or the treatment plant. The Ground Penetrating radar you mentioned, they keep one of those, anytime we need to locate a line a lot of these lines were put in, grown up in trees now, you cant you dont know exactly where the line is, they come out there with the machine and locate that line for us and help us tap it, help us do whatever we need. The machine is about 35,000. And you know, most of these little systems dont have the money for that. What we do, we call rural water and they help us in whatever needs we have. Thanks to each of you. I also want to specifically thank ranking remember tomko for his assistance as we try to work through these issues. I recognize the gentleman from texas, mr. Green, for five minutes. The Drinking Water needs smaller communities. I represent an urban district. Unincorporated in houston, texas. We have some of the same problems that will not be annexed by our cities because the property tax could never cover the cost. And yet over the years in texas, we received money from the fund. Also partnering with the county for sewer service. It bothered me that last year, texas received the lowest amount of money from the state Revolving Fund of 53 million, and that goes back to 1997 and thats not anywhere near inflation. Its deeply troubling in the needs of texas in general, a very urban district. If its in the city, theyll do it but this area is not attractive to be annexed. Very poor communities. Thens where we need the help. Septic tanks still. Thats why this hearing is important. Do you believe that the congress should reauthorize the Drinking Water, state Revolving Fund this year . To start off, yes it seems like an easy one. Yes, sir, exactly, thats one of the most important mechanisms. For the other three gentlemen, do all of yall agree we ought to reauthorize it . Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Do you believe congress should increase the funding provided to state and local communities through Drinking Water for state resolving fund . Raise the authorization for it. Now i explain to folks, authorization is, we have that. You can raise it all you want but you still have to go back every year and ask for the money. Do you think the authorization amount should be raised . We get asked for appropriations. The water needs around the country not only your states but others. Yes, sir. This is to capitalize the funds that the state already has. This is the money that can be revolved again and again for use of communities large and small. But should the fund be raised so we can cover more communities . Absolutely, yeah. I would also like to add, that in addition to raising the funding to cover more communities, take a look at the process and make sure that the money is being utilized by the communities that it was intended to be beneficial for. You think theres something in the authorizing law that we need to change that would make that happen . Im not so sure about the process of the authorization of the law as i am concerned about just the implementation of the funds and those things that discourage the smaller communities, you know, in mississippi that im familiar with, from pursuing those funds. These funds were intended to benefit these small communities. And theres a gap, and i think that we all need to figure out how do bridge that gap. You know, the biggest problem we have in my area is these are very poor communities. And they have a resolving fund and have it paid back, they could hardly afford the monthly water bill and sewer bill to be able to pay it back. Thats the issue again in my area, and i assume its in north mississippi just like it is in other parts of rural texas. Mr. Stewart, you indicated you worked two decades on Drinking Water issues. Weve had i have the last few years, the rain stopped at the louisiana border. Not as much in the last year weve had good rain. In the houston area, Southeast Texas and all the way to the rio grande valley. We still have problems out near san antonio. Thats still in a drought area. How would you describe our current state of Drinking Water infrastructure in texas. For the most part its strong. But theres certain disadvantaged communities that really need some Additional Resources. And theres some hard hit drought areas in northcentral texas, my area of texas that needs some additional support. Texas has benefitted because we have river authorities, we have people who are looking at this issue from a lot of different angles. The voters for a constitutional amendment to provide for it, because of the problems we have. In 2011, harris county, as much of our state was in the grips of the drought due to aging waterlines, hardening soil, hundreds of waterline breakage tailly resulting in billions of gallons of lost treated water, do you have any sense in the Economic Impact that the 2011 drought had on our state . Thats something the gao may be better to answer, but i know its been severe Economic Impact, because you dont have the water sources, youre not going to be able to support the businesses, the growth thats occurring all over texas. Water is the foundation of all the economy in this country. I know im over time. Way over time. We talk a little slow. I think my colleague recognizes the gentleman from pennsylvania, mr. Murphy for five minutes. Ill talk a little fast, see what i can get in. This is for mr. Selman or mr. N newman. Thank you for being here. Engineers who serve in some of these rural Water Systems in my district, for example, green county and southwestern pennsylvania, they tell me that states often times impose Drinking Water requirements. Could you please provide some examples for me where these state imposed requirements that youve seen in your community or other communities go beyond or differ from the epa standards . In mississippi mr. Sellman can elaborate on this or correct me if im wrong. I believe our state regulations are the same in federal guidelines being no more or no less stringent than the language in the federal act. Thats correct. Does anybody else see differences in their communities . I dont think our regulations could be any more stringent. Thats the way the state of mississippi does it. Efa regulates water quality, they dont regulate capacity requirements. Some states require you have a certain Water Treatment plant, storage and pumping capacities, in a lot of cases, those affect small communities because theyre not really on an engineering basis, theyre not justified on how much the water is being used. So for example where theyre dealing with the water line extensions, that not necessarily have has to do with the water capacity, its the delivery. Whether youre dealing with things like the waterline extensions, not necessarily water quality, that has to do with water delivery. Sometimes the capacity requirements are a little higher to whats needed to protect public health. How much could the height and standards cost rural Drinking Water systems in if we make some changes in here. Will it affect i heard some of you alluding to cost estimates in here. You talked about consulting an engineer and what those costs are. What does this vary for communities, Rural Communities, anybody have estimates here that the cost you would bear. Probably save us on all the consulting fees that we spend looking for funding. Anybody else have any thoughts about this . If youre treating for arsenic, then youre talking about doubling or tripling the water bill for a Small Community. It depends on what kind of treatment the epa is requiring the Small Community to treat for. The question i have, and you talked about some of these things, but how do rural systems get the funds they need to deal with this compliance issue . Do you have any thoughts of this, of what we do . I heard one comment, could the federal government send more money. I sometimes think its unfair to say you must do all these things and you must bear the costs. It comes down to a question of what else, how are these costs born oftentimes when you have someone that lives a mile from the next person. Theres huge costs associated with this. Anyone have any comments on how this should be set up . We just raise our rates. We have the dec required our local school district. They passed a bond, they passed that price on to the taxpayers to hook into the system at quite considerable expense. And what kind of percentage increase would you say that was . Im not sure. Anybody else have any other thoughts other than put on the rate payers. Raising rates is the only way like the small communities i work for, thats the only option they have, in the 10 to 20 range sometimes. We have these grant systems. I know that some of my communities are asking for some changes in the way the loans are established, rates, et cetera. Any comments on those . The paperwork is quite cumbersome and usually we have to hire a Consulting Firm to help us apply for the loan. What kind of hours and time it adds to your costs . We dont have the staff who can understand whats required in the paperwork. We give them the data, how much water we use every day, and that kind of thing. Is it safe to say that simplifying paperwork, and if youre going to be required to also give some assistance in filling it out. Absolutely. Thank very much. For the second time, im going to try to be quick around the gavel so everyone gets a chance. Youre recognized for five minutes. Thank you, mr. Chairman. To our panel, thanks for being here. This kind of strikes home to me. County commissioner in ohio for six years, handled a lot of water and sewer issues, and also we created a Regional Water and sewer district when i was the commissioner to put things together because my home county was over 600 square miles. We had part of five cities, 21 villages and 19 townships and a lot of unincorporated area. Its important, and hearing all of you brings back memories of over 20 years ago that i used to sit in a lot of meetings and hear people talk about, there are really important issues. In ohio alone, i think we have 21 billion right now that were looking at that we need in Infrastructure Improvements from water to wastewater and storm water. What youre saying here today is very, very important. I appreciate you being here, i can commiserate with what youve all said. Ive been working on legislation for at least one session. To try to help on the wastewater side, to help Rural Communities. But if i could, because i tell you, you all had very good testimony today, and again, appreciate you being here. And if i could start with mr. Gomez, i think its important, because one of the things ive been hearing out here, theres a shortage of dollars out there that we have. Especially when youre talking about our rural areas. Could you discuss the relationship between the epa and usda programs and whether there are overlaps out there, and what about the efficiencies or synergies that could occur if we were looking at these programs to make sure we didnt have duplication out there or anything like that . Thank you. We have looked at those two programs in particular, and also at the other agencies. That have programs that help Rural Communities. With respect to the usda Rural Utility Service and the epa Drinking Water srf, they do have some similar programs. We did not find any areas where they were duplicating an effort, meaning they were funding the same project for the same purpose. Projects can get funding from both programs, but theyre usually focusing on different areas. Now, the other thing that weve reported on is the importance for those two agencies to Work Together to collaborate, but also to encourage the state srf programs to work closely with the usda Utility Service so they can get efficiencies. One of the recommendations we made was that they needed to come up with a uniformed preliminary engineering report, so the communitiesc m arent g multiple engineering reports that cost money. Those are things that we were tracking. Were happy to hear that they have come up with a uniform preliminary engineering report, some states have already adopted it, we think those are places where if by working together they can better target the monies. Thank you. This is for mr. Stewart and mr. Newman. You both kind of touched on it in your testimony. You had mentioned, mr. Stewart, about bringing the tools back to the communities and the cost of the Technical Assistance. I know what that would cost. What do you find are the tools there, are they readily available . I know we heard from some others of the members of the panel asking about the cost. Do you find that you have that assistance out there to be able to get that as soon as you can get it . Both have a variety of tools that we bring to bear with small communities. Theyre readily available, epa and rda are working on different tools, i touched on them in my testimony. Its the access to those tools, thats needed. We need the technical asset to bring those tools whether its omn manuals, whatever those tools might be. The real expense is not just creating the tools, its bringing it out to the small communities that cant access them. Mr. Newman, would you like to touch on that, about that assistance out there in the communities . To reiterate the comments that ive made as well as mr. Stewart, from the perspective of the water system manager, the resources, the assistance is invaluable, because theyre varied issues that occurred across a water system, or a wastewater system that may be beyond the scope of that particular utility and beyond the financial capabilities. So utilizing the services of the Rural Water Association is absolutely essential. Thank you. Gentleman, its time the chair recognizes the gentleman from West Virginia. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Going to go in several directions with this, but ive got we all heard a lot of horror stories, and i have mine in my district. I have a little town in West Virginia, i think we have a slide, perhaps, of a waterline that theyve been facing can we get that up . There it is. It shows how occluded the line is, they cant. They have applied knowing this, they have applied ten times to try to get money. And theyve been rejected ten times in 2002. It just isnt their we dont have the money in the srf. What i was particularly pleased about was the president this year actually maintained, for the most part, the funding from the Previous Year as compared to what weve seen in the past, the year before, he made a 40 reduction in the srf because they said the priority was climate change. We heard that mentioned in the other side of the aisle. They thought climate complaining was higher priority. Ive got im curious. I hope we i hope weve seen the light with that. But the im confused a little bit about the Regulatory Burden because particularly a lot of you have been talking this hearing is about Rural America, not whats been offered as we have to be concerned about the big cities. Im worried at this hearing we stay focused on Rural America. Here is a listing of some of the rules. Ive designed a lot of water and sewer lines. As an engineer, im quite familiar with this. We have things that a small city has to take care of as the arsenic rule. Chemical rule, the uranium rule. The groundwater rule, the enhanced surface water rule, disinfect rule 1 and 2. I could go on and on. These are rules that small cities have to deal with just as well as a Larger Community of 100,000 or 200,000. I have three other communities, theyre just trying to find money for operations, let alone install this one community, theyre working on, one of you said in here, a 19th century system. Theyre trying to replace it with that waterline right there. How can we get money for operations . Because weve got one community theyre dumping raw sewage into the potomac river, they dont have money to do the Maintenance Work we have to do. I have another community theyre getting water buffalos, pouring into a cistern so they have water this is 2015 in america. We have an administration until this year, every year for the last three years has been reducing money to the srf. What how are we failing our country when we dont put enough money into the srf. Because thats what ive heard many of you say, we need to put more money into the program. What do we have to do . How much more money . Where do we have to go with that . And i would also add, should we be prioritizing the srf money, so were waking them a little more heavily than the big cities . Mr. Stewart . Youre preaching to the choir here. I think all of us would agree that significantly, a greater percentage of the srf money goes to small communities and they should be able to access it easily. You cant have a chance to get the srf money unless you get on the intended use plan. For a Small Community, how do you get on the intended use plan. All of us can tell you, thats difficult to do. Do you have the Technical Assistance . Do you have an engineer youre working with, somebody thats going to submit the paperwork . Do you have a chance to get on the money . Thats a problem. We need some assistance so these small communities can get on the intended use, which is what they do to prioritize money into the srf. How can we wait . What would be some factors that we might be able to wait so that a Small Community putting in will be given better consideration than a Larger Community. Any of your thoughts . Mr. Gomez . Generally, what gao always recommends is that you target federal funds to those communities. If these are the communities, thats where the thats one of the areas that we could target. I guess were running out of time. But again, mr. Chairman, thank you for bringing this up. I hope we continue this is a small cities. The big cities have their own issues, they have the resources and the mass Critical Mass to be able to take care of our small town, were struggling, we better find it, thank you very much. My colleague recognizes the gentleman from ohio, mr. Johnson, for five minutes. Thank you mr. Chairman. I represent appalachia ohio, and i dont have to tell you folks how rural that is. I hear the horror stories, many of which you just heard. I could site similar cases that my colleague from West Virginia did. Mr. Selman, i served 26 years in the air force, and i was stationed in columbus, mississippi, and you know how rural that area is. So ive seen this for a long time. Mr. Gomez ,does the gao track, and can you tell us in regard to all urban and rural systems, how many municipalities have their systems charge the true cost of providing water to their customers . In other words, how many of them are operating in the red . Thats a really good question. And its always one area thats debatable. Whether people are paying the true price of what the water costs. I dont believe that we have done work on that, but if we have, id have to get back to you on that. Would you take a look at that, please. I think the American People would be interested to know how these small Rural Communities are struggling. And many of them are operating in the red as it stands right now, because their residents cant even afford the cost of providing the water. What i can also say is that epa has estimated that for these Rural Communities, if they have to understate the water and wasteWater Infrastructure projects, their rates will likely be four times what the urban rate pair would be paying. Absolutely. Yeah, and ive got rural areas that are under that exact pressure. They dont have the money because of the economy. They dont have the money to comply with the epas clean water mandates and system mandates today. And on top of that, theyre being levelled with these fines that they also cant pay. So, i mean, its like trying to get blood out of a turn up. And i know you guys know what a turnip is. Let me ask you a question, mr. Newman. Your system mentions that the town of cuomo, mississippi has 2 million in wastewater needs and 1 million in Drinking Water upgrades that it needs to undertake. Whats the annual operating budget of the city . The annual operating budget is approximately 150,000 annually. All right. And whats the average income of the residents there . Per capita, about 21,000. Okay. Is raising local water rates a realistic possibility . Its a realistic possibility from a standpoint of operation and maintenance. But not from the standpoint of addressing making these upgrades . Thats correct, yes. And even if you raise the rates, operationally and maintenance wise, would it be enough to cover the cost of providing the service in. No. Okay. What is their access to or there r there limits on other Funding Sources like commercial lending . Thats a doubleedged question because the question itself kind of says, why dont you go in debt. Sure. To provide water. And thats certainly not a principle that i subscribe to. Are you considering other sources . By and large, the primary source is Rural Development. Primarily because of the grant component. Other options, as we have discussed, include state Revolving Fund, even commercial lending. However, as is the case with srf, commercial lending is 100 loan and the Interest Rates on a commercial loan is typically going to be higher than the srf. But either case, because of the low economies of scale, a Community Like cuomo cant afford to bow row the money necessary to make these improvements. They dont have enough customers over which to spread the cost. Okay. Gentlemen, mr. Newman, mr. Keegan and mr. Selman, what challenges do you have in assessing the state Drinking Water funds and how does that compare with accessing rural unitary Service Funding . Well, ill allow these gentlemen to elaborate. But one of the issues that we touched on as well, youve got more help in applying with rus as opposed to srf. The cost of applying for srf, you might have to utilize services from a consultant, which adds to the cost. And thats typically not the case with the Rural Development process. Mr. Selman . Yeah. Well, weve been able to use some srf money. Our engineer takes whatever they allow at that consultant amount, you know, whatever they allow for attorney for an engineer or whatever. He does the paperwork for whatever that is. And theyve got that specified in the loan. And weve been able to i know certain regions maybe not, but weve been able to take advantage of some srf money. We were having trouble getting money through Rural Development. Thank you. My time has expired. Mr. Keegan, do you want to respond . Weve had trouble accessing funds from either program. In new york state, a lot of the funding goes to communities that have a citation, some problem with their system. We are our engineers work hard to keep our system smooth running. So were sort of at the bottom of the pile. Thank you very much. Rural america knows how hard it is to get blood out of a turnip and i appreciate piet you having this hearing so we can shed light on how difficult it is to do this. Thank you. I thank my Ranking Member and my vice chair who is trying to lead this charge too. Last but not least, mr. Cramer, from rural state of north dakota. So youre recognized for five minutes. Thank you, mr. Chairman from illinois and Ranking Member from new york for acknowledging Rural America and reminding us there are other rural places that are better known for their urban centers. Its good to have an alliance. My constituents with the north dakota rural Water Systems association would be very proud of all of you. Youve done a great job today and ive felt right at home even with the unusual accents. Its a reminder that there are some things that we Work Together on and that are very important. And i wont, i wont delay except to tell you that we hear a lot. I hear a lot about the Circuit Rider Program from our folks, and i think you raise a very important issue. And i think its incumbent upon us now as policymakers and eventually for us to prioritize the entire pact. And given the financial constraints we have, we do have to be a little creative. But certainly we can reprioritize. I want to ask for a little bit of elaboration on one point. I think the g action o report was fantastic. Its nice to see the alphabet soup, as my constituents often refer to it, and see that there is both recommendation findings and then response by multiple agencies that have that have a tendency to create extra burden by requiring sort of uniform processes but not in a uniform way spop the engineer report template is a great tool. And i think at a time when the constituents are looking for an efficient effective governmen