Transcripts For CSPAN3 Road To The White House Rewind 20160221

Larry king serve as moderator. Governor bush was widely considered the frontrunner in the 2000 gop race but senator a decisiveed won victory in New Hampshire prior to this debate. Governor bush defeated Vice President al gore in the general election in one of the most highly contested races in u. S. History. This 90 minute event is courtesy of cnn. Larry king tonight, a crucial debate for the three remaining republican president ial candidates. Joining me in South Carolina, site of saturdays gop primary, senator john mccain of arizona. Former Reagan Administration official, ambassador alan keyes. And Texas Governor george w. Bush. Theyre next on a special edition of larry king live election 2000. This is the South Carolina republican debate. Larry king good evening. A couple of notes before we start. Were at seawells Banquet Center here in columbia, South Carolina, the capital of this state. This event tonight is sponsored by bipec. Thats the South Carolina business and industry political education committee. This is the second such event theyve held. They held one four years ago. We are live, as you can tell. There is an audience here of people enjoying it. We have asked them to remain attentive so that you can listen to everything our guests say. A couple of other notes, this is going to be a freewheeling debate. If one guest wishes to comment on what another says after they finish, they can. Were going to cover as many subjects as we can for the next 90 minutes. There will be only two commercial breaks at 9 30 eastern time, the bottom of the hour, a twominute break, and at 10 00 eastern time, a twominute break. And one personal note if i cough a little, forgive me. Ive got a scratchy throat tonight. Well start with governor bush. Since were being seen all over the world were on Cnn International what area of American International policy would you change immediately as president . Governor bush our relationship with china. The current president has called the relationship with china a strategic partnership. I believe our relationship needs to be redefined as one as competitor. Competitors can find areas of agreement, but we must make it clear to the chinese that we dont appreciate any attempt to spread weapons of mass destruction around the world. That we dont appreciate any threats to our friends and allies in the far east. This president is one who went to china and ignored our friends and allies in tokyo and seoul. He sent a chilling signal about the definition of friendship. When i become the president , im going to strengthen our alliances in the far east. Im going to work with the russians to get rid of the antiballistic missile treaty so we can bring certainty into an uncertain part of the world, and thats the far east as well. We must say to people in that part of the world, dont threaten our friends. Do not threaten our allies. So im going to change the relationship. King and youre going to let them know. Bush of course im going to let them know. Thats what a president does, a president lets them know. King ambassador keyes, what would you change . Mr. Keyes i think the first thing id want to do is to restore respect for the National Sovereignty of this country. King by mr. Keyes i was very much in disagreement with our entry into the World Trade Organization. I think we gave away a portion of our sovereignty that we should never have surrendered to an unrepresentative body that can make decisions according to that treaty that would have direct affect on the lives of americans. It violates the fundamental principle of our way of life. No legislation without representation representative government. I want to see us withdraw from the World Trade Organization and put our approach to trade back on a footing that maximizes the results that we get for the American People. Im not interested in protectionism or withdrawal from the world. But i do think if you happen to be the sponsors of the most lucrative market in the world, that folks ought to be paying a premium price to enter this market, or else giving us something concrete in return thats of tangible benefit to the whole American People, not just to a handful of international corporations. King senator . Senator mccain china is obviously a place where this one of the signal failures of this administration. Although there are certainly many failures throughout the world. But i would also look very revise our policies concerning these rogue states. Iraq, libya, north korea, those countries that continue to try to acquire weapons of mass destruction and the means to deliver them. King and youd do what . Mccain id institute a policy that i call rogue state rollback. I would arm, train, equip, both from without and from within, forces that would eventually overthrow the governments and install free and democratically elected governments. As long as Saddam Hussein is in power, i am convinced that he will pose a threat to our security. The New York Times reported just a few days ago that Administration Officials worry that Saddam Hussein continues to develop weapons of mass destruction. Congress passed a law a couple of years ago called the iraqi liberation act. The administration has done nothing. We should help them with arms, training, equipment, radio and a broad variety of ways. Until those governments are overthrown, they will pose a threat to u. S. National security. Larry king the governor mentioned nuclear. Are you in favor of the continuation of abandonment of Nuclear Weapons around the world now . Mr. Keyes well, i think we ought to put where Nuclear Weapons are concerned, we have put our own strategic safety first. I think it is very important that we take the antimissile defense treaty and set it aside in order to rapidly develop and deploy an antimissile defense for the United States. I think it has been a travesty that this administration has stood in the schoolhouse door, dragged its feet, acted as if we were suppose to thank them when they were even willing to talk about this vital necessity for our national security. No, its time we gave the American People and the allies of this country the assurance that can come from our superior technology, make use of it to secure ourselves against rogue states and their missiles, as well as against the communist chinese threat that this administration has contributed to. Larry king do you agree with him . Governor bush well, i agree. I think one of the things we republicans stand for is to use our technologies in research and development to the point where we can bring certainty into an uncertain world. All three of us agree that the president has drug his feet on the development of an antiballistic missile system. All three of us understand, just like i understand, that this nation must not retreat, but can lead the world to peace. I do believe theres an area where we can work with russia in the postcold war era. And thats to work with them to dismantle strategic and Tactical Nuclear warheads. Its called nunnlugar. And when im the president , im going to continue to fund nunnlugar, to make sure that we work with the russians to bring certainty into that part of the world. You see, the russians have got to understand the postcold war era is one where we need to cooperate to bring peace. As john mentioned, and rightly so, we must convince them as well, not to spread weapons of mass destruction. Larry king senator, would you meet with assuming mr. Putin is elected in march, would you want to meet with him as a candidate . Other candidates have gone overseas while running for office, or right before the campaign. Senator mccain im not sure that would be necessary. It might be an interesting experience because i know what is going on in russia. So do a lot of my friends. Larry king but you dont know. Senator mccain but the fact is well, we know that he was an apparatchik. We know that he was a member of the kgb. We know that he came to power because of the military brutality and massacre thats been taking place in russia today i mean in chechnya today. We know that he worked a deal with yeltsin, so that yeltsin would have immunity and he would be assured of the presidency, rather than basically a contested im very concerned about him. Im afraid mr. Putin might be one of those who wants to make the trains run on time. So, yeah, i would meet with him as a candidate, but i think that what i would really like to do is send a message to mr. Putin that we expect certain behavior out of the russians and particularly whats going in chechnya today, a cessation of that brutality. And that is a very important strategic part of the world for us. Larry king would you meet with him . Mr. Keyes no, i wouldnt. And i think in fact it would be vital now and during the course the campaign and also in the first months of an administration to make it clear that we were determined to work against the mobocracy and the mafia that has taken over in russia. And that we are going to seek to work at all levels with those folks who are actually seeking to establish real selfgovernment, that respects basic human rights and that is also going to take an approach that removes power from the hands of those who basically have been using it for criminal purposes. Larry king would you meet with him . Governor bush i dont know. Probably not. Larry king wouldnt you want to meet with the leader . Governor bush maybe, but im going to be trying to win the election. Governor bush after the nomination. Larry king i was asking, if you are the candidate, would you want to . Governor bush well, i intend to try to win the nomination in the fall as well. If he came over and knocked on i imagine any of our doors, we would open it and listen to the guy. Heres the question though and the verdict on mr. Putin is out. Will he reject the politics inside of russia that has allowed folks to siphon off aid . Will he stand up to the corruption inside that country . Will he welcome rule of law . Will he welcome the marketplace and the great freedoms of the marketplace . Thats the question for mr. Putin. Larry king how will you know without talking to him . Senator mccain thats not encouraging when he cut a deal with the communists rather than the reformers in order to consolidate his power. Mr. Keyes i think were also going to have to be clearer certainly that the clinton than the Clinton Administration has been, that a Good Relationship with the United States is conditioned on this kind of respect for basic human rights and the requirements of the people. We shouldnt be transferring capital and doing all kinds of things that send a message of business as usual to a regime that hasnt yet shown itself willing to show respect for these basics. Governor bush let me say one other thing. Sorry to interrupt. This Current Administration has been sending all kinds of signals confirming mr. Putin. We dont know enough about him. We dont know enough about this person. America must be diligent and firm. We must expect there to be a Market Evolution in these countries. We understand freedom. We understand freedom, and there are some who want to isolate our nation. We must reject isolationism, because freedoms our greatest export. Mr. Keyes but there is one problem, though, and i would have to distinguish myself in one respect because if were going to talk that way, then i think we ought to apply it to china as well. And sending a businessasusual signal by continuing most favored nation status is wrong. We ought to take the reins of that policy back in our hands and condition each element of the trade relationship on their willingness to respect the basic requirements of decency and of our values and interests. Larry king senator, you concerned about austria . Senator mccain im concerned. A guy whos name was Adolf Schicklgruber was born there, was a corporal in the german army in world war i, and obviously caused us great problems. But this was a free and Fair Election, larry. This was a free and Fair Election by a sophisticated electorate. Larry king hitler was elected in a free election. Well, he won a majority of and appointed democratically. Senator mccain i was going to say, theres your interpretation of history. But the point is that this was a free and Fair Election. We have to watch it. We have to pay close attention to whats happening in the middle of europe in what is viewed by most people as one of the most sophisticated countries in europe. Obviously we need to keep an eye on it. But i dont think the United States of america right now is prepared to overturn a free and Fair Election. And ill tell you what. When the European Union started weighing in, they got a negative reaction from the austrian people and gained more support for this guy than he otherwise would have had. Larry king governor, in what occasion could you describe where you would use arms . Governor bush when its in our National Strategic interests. Europe is in our National Strategic interests. The far east is in our National Strategic interests. Our own hemisphere is in our National Strategic interests. The middle east protecting israel is in our National Strategic interests. And ill give you one clear example in our own hemisphere. If, for whatever reason, somebody tries to block passage through the panama canal, as president of the United States i will make sure the panama canal remains open for trade. Its in our interests to have a hemisphere that is peaceful and open for trade. Larry king what if it was not . What if it was a moral question, senator . Senator mccain i just want to say its not that simple. Its not that simple because we are driven by wilsonian principles as well as others. There are times when our principles and our values are so offended that we have to do what we can to resolve a terrible situation. If rwanda again became a scene of horrible genocide, if there was a way that the United States could stop that and beneficially affect the situation by the way, we couldnt in haiti. We spent sent 20,000 troops and spent 2 billion. Haiti is arguably worse off. Obviously, its the last resort. But we can never say that a nation driven by judeochristian principles will only intervene where our interests are threatened because we also have values. And those values are very important. Mr. Keyes but our but our, i think our. Senator mccain you know, im not interrupting you, alan. So i think that its important that we always have some complex challenges as to where we must intervene. Because sometimes we find that if genocide is allowed, the consequences of inaction later on in history are far more severe. Mr. Keyes well, several things are true. One, i think we need to end the clinton policy of interventionism on behalf of all kinds of globalist ideas and interests that are of not direct relevance to our interest or to our values. And i frankly think that kosovo was an example of that. I also think we ought to avoid interventions that are based essentially on exaggerated propaganda, and that set the threshold of atrocity so low that, in point of fact, other nations could use that threshold as an excuse to disrupt the peace of the world let me finish by going into other countries in their region on the same excuse. We should be very careful not to become practitioners of aggression, even in the name of good purposes. I think, basically, weve got to send a message to the rest of the world that we will not be stepping in to intervene in the affairs of other countries on any kind of routine basis unless the level of atrocity is so clear that it justifies violating that principle of nonaggression for the sake of which we have sacrificed tens of thousands of american lives. And i think it would be irresponsible to do what clinton, in fact, has done and take us on a road of interventionism that sets that threshold so low that i think its a threat to peace. Governor bush yes, i think there needs to be a clear statement of when and if well commit troops. I worry about rwanda. I didnt like what went on in rwanda. But i dont think we should commit troops to rwanda. Nor do i think we ought to try to be the peacekeepers all around the world. I intend to tell our allies that america will help make the peace, but you get to put troops on the ground to keep warring parties apart. One of the reasons we have such low morale in the military today is because were overdeployed and undertrained. If you talk to the men and women who wear our uniform, who are married, theyre constantly being separated as a result of deployments all around the world. Weve got to be very careful about when and if we commit our troops. Mr. Keyes well, we can still deal. Larry king let john add. Senator mccain obviously we have too much deployment. We should have our troops coming home from bosnia. We shouldnt have gone into kosovo or shouldnt have stumbled into kosovo. There was no need to intervene there. But look. Theres only one superpower, and thats the United States of america. And there will be times when the superpower has to do things that other nations dont have to do. And i am convinced that the best way to prevent the loss of blood certainly certainly the lessons of the last century showed us is that there may be times when we have to come in early so that we will prevent a recurrence of what happened with the rise of nazi germany. Mr. Keyes i think. Senator mccain which is a classic example of that. Mr. Keyes i think that what we have to avoid, however, is taking a unilateral approach in these sorts of matters that encourage other countries to shrink from their responsibilities, not to develop their capability and potential, and not to take responsibility for policing their regions of the world. They should not expect that the United States is going to come in and substitute for their responsibility. And if we encourage them to believe that thats going to be the case, we actually destabilize situations, we dont help them. Larry king moved to another area. A man on the sidelines. Do you think this has been a dirty campaign, alan . Mr. Keyes well, frankly, i havent given their campaign a thought. Larry king not a thought. [laughter] mr. Keyes i will confess, i spend too much time speaking about the moral crisis of this country, the priority that this nation needs to address to get back to its basic moral principles. I have a positive message of my own. I concentrate on that message because i think its of vital importance to this country. I frankly believe that you spend all this time beating up on somebody else because you dont have that much to say yourself. I have too much to say of a positive nature about the future of this country to worry about beating up on my opponents except when specific issues require that we call attention to differences. Larry king all right, governor, what do you make of all these past two weeks, the charges and countercharges . You go and then the senator. Governor bush well, its kind of politics. And john and i shook hands and we said we werent going to run ads and i kind of smiled my way through the early primaries and got defined. Im not going to let it happen again. And we shook hands and unfortunately he ran and ad that equated me to bill clinton he questioned my trustworthiness. Larry king are you saying he broke the agreement with you . Governor bush well, im just saying you can disagree on issues, well debate issues, but whatever you do, dont equate my integrity and trustworthiness to bill clinton. Thats about as low a blow as you can give in a republican primary. [applause] larry king and thats what and thats what got you mad to sort of fight back . Governor bush i stand by my ads. I stand. Larry king you wouldnt change any . Governor bush no. I stand by what im trying to do. I mean when the man says that im spending all the surplus on tax cuts and its not true, im going to define what reality is. Senator mccain senator mccain, did you break a promise . Senator mccain well, let me tell you what happened. There was an ad run against me, we ran a counterad in New Hampshire, governor bush took the ad down. And then i was beat up very badly by all of his surrogates, called clinton, called clintonlite, called every a hypocrite. I mean, youve seen. Larry king in New Hampshire . Senator mccain no, here in South Carolina. Youve seen it turn on the radio, turn on the television, and unfortunately now pick up the telephone and youll hear a negative attack against john mccain. But let me tell you what really went over the line. Governor bush had an event, and he paid of it, and standing and stood next to a spokesman for a fringe veterans group. That fringe veteran said that john mccain had abandoned the veterans. Now, i dont know if you can understand this, george, but that really hurts, that really hurts. And so five United States senators, vietnam veterans, heroes, some of them really incredible heroes wrote george a letter and said, apologize, you should be ashamed. Governor bush let me speak to that. Senator mccain you should be ashamed. Now if you want. Larry king is he responsible for what someone else says . Senator mccain well, this same man he stood next to him, it was his event. This same man had attacked his father viciously. Governor bush yes, he did. Let me speak to that. Let me speak to that. Larry king all right. Senator mccain so id be glad to tell you the rest of the story, if youd let me, when its appropriate. Larry king well, let him respond on that point. Governor bush let me let me answer that. Senator mccain you should be ashamed you should be ashamed of sponsoring an event with that man there who had attacked your own father. Governor bush let me Say Something, john. Let me finish. John, i believe that you served our country. And ive said it over and over again. That man wasnt speaking for me. He may have a dispute with you. Senator mccain he was at your event. Governor bush let me finish please, please. Senator mccain he is governor bush let me finish. Let me finish. Larry king all right, let him finish. Governor bush the man was not speaking for me. If you want to know my opinion about you, john, you served our country admirably and strongly, and im proud of your record, just like you are. And i dont appreciate what he said about my dad, either. But let me Say Something. If youre going to be hold me responsible for what people for me say, im going to do the same for you. And let me give you one example. Warren rudman, the man who you had as your campaign man in New Hampshire, said about the Christian Coalition that theyre bigots. He talked about the Christian Coalition in a way that was incredibly strong. I know you dont believe that, do you . Senator mccain george, hes entitled to his opinion on that issue. Governor bush well, so is this man. Senator mccain you paid for an event. Governor bush so is this man. Senator mccain you paid for an event. You paid for an event and stood next to a person. And when you were asked if you would repudiate him, you said no. Governor bush no. John, what i said what i said let me say what i said. Senator mccain so, let me tell you what happened let me tell you what happened after that effectively. Larry king but i want alan to give me one thing. If you have surrogate making a speech for you today, are you responsible for what he says . Mr. Keyes larry, im sorry. I really am sitting here wondering because i said we were going out to 202 countries, and is this kind of pointless squabbling really what we want them to see . [applause] larry king but it happened. Mr. Keyes but it happened or not happened, and i dont know whether this is the influence of the media corrupting our process or whether its that personal ambition becomes a substitute for our real focus on substance. But it seems to me weve got a lot more important things. We have got a country that has abandoned its most profound and fundamental principle. Killing babies in the womb every day is a contradiction. Of the declaration of independence. We have got a country with an income tax system that enslaves its people and. Larry king im going to get to that. Mr. Keyes and needs to put that back in their hands. Larry king im going to get to that. Mr. Keyes we have got a School System that needs to be put back into the hands of parents. And all im sitting here listening to is these two guys go on about their ads. [applause] it seems to me it seems let their ad people get in the back room and fight it out and let the American People hear what theyve got to hear about the issues. Larry king im going to. Governor bush lets discuss the issues. Lets the discuss the issues. Senator mccain let me just finish up, ok . So heres what happened. We ran an ad that was a response ad. At a town hall meeting a mother stood up and she said, senator mccain, my son was 13 last year. We had a lot of trouble of explaining things to him that went on in washington. She said, now hes 14. Hes told me not long ago, john mccain is my hero. hes the man i want to be like. Well, last night he came into her room, she said, and he had tears in his eyes because he had answered the phone and the phone call, even though he told the caller that he was 14, said, do you know that john mccain is a liar, and a thief and cheat . well, that night i called my people together. I said take down our response ad. Were running nothing but a positive campaign from now on. I committed to that, i promise that. Larry king now, are you saying that. Senator mccain i hope george. Larry king george. Are you saying that governor bush was responsible for that call . Senator mccain i dont know who was responsible for it. But i know that the attacks go on. Larry king let me just say one thing. Senator mccain i know that the attacks go on. Larry king let me say one thing about all this business, john. Senator mccain i told you i pulled them all down. Larry king you didnt pull this ad. This had ended up in a mans windshield yesterday. That questions my this is an attack piece. Senator mccain that is not by my campaign. Larry king well, it says, paid for by john mccain. Senator mccain it is not by my campaign. Larry king john. Senator mccain thats not that is not by my campaign. Larry king well, then somebodys putting stuff up. Senator mccain i pulled them off. Larry king i agree with you. Senator mccain but youre putting out stuff that is unbelievable, george, and its got to stop. Larry king i find that. Senator mccain and your ads have got to stop. My ads have all stopped. Larry king im going to end this now. Are you going to pull anything that you now have on . Governor bush im going to stand by what im putting on tv. And what i put on tv was looking in that camera and saying, you can disagree with me on issues, john, but do not question do not question my trustworthiness and do not compare me to bill clinton. Senator mccain weve pulled all ours down. Theres nothing negative on the air and we have insisted that there not be a mean point. King would you disclaim what rudman said if he said. Mccain the phone calls. King that you dont agree with that . Mccain his phone calls. King do you disclaim what the veteran said if he said it . Mccain i did not abandon the veterans. You should have. crosstalk bush thats right, we didnt abandon the veterans. Mccain you should have repudiated your guy. Bush i stood up there at that press conference and said, john, youre a man who served our country well. Mr. Keyes but this is the problem. Once it starts, its almost impossible to end and why . Larry king im leaving it now. Mr. Keyes no. No, i dont mean it that way, though. No, i dont mean it that way. I mean it in the first place, you know . And i think its time we began to ask ourselves. Why it is that these campaigns degenerate into this kind of stuff and i think i know why it is. Larry king which. Mr. Keyes i think its because people are trying so hard to be all things to all people that they refuse to stand forthrightly and make it clear on each given issue where they stand in a principled way and simply speak the truth and let the chips falls. Larry king you said that youd people need to start thinking about it this is the kind of spectacle that actually characterizes a serious clinical discussion. I dont think it is. Larry king you said that youd been announcing it in other pieces throughout the past couple of months, but the first time you formulated it as a plan today. Governor bush well, actually, i first laid it out last summer a lot of it. Would you like me to go through it . Larry king no, but one of the networks. Governor bush well, why cant i. Larry king oh no, no, im sorry, of you can go through it. No, what i mean is, one of the networks reported. Governor bush its a great plan. King that this is the first time youve used the Term Campaign finance reform. Governor bush well, thats not true. I started talking about Campaign Finance reform last summer. And i said the following things, we ought to ban corporate soft money and we ought to ban labor union soft money. We ought to make sure though that labor bosses cannot spend Union Members money without their permission. Its big difference between what i believe and john believes. Thirdly, we should not allow federal candidates to take money from one campaign and roll it over into another campaign. That ought to be a reform. Y, what iy fourthl said king i lost count. Bush because you were listening so closely. King too closely. Bush yes, too closely was that members of the United States congress should not be allowed to raise money, when theres a legislative session that members should not be allowed to raise money from federal lobbyists during a session. King on the corporate end, about unions giving against the will of the member, should stockholders have the right to say whether a corporation can give . Bush no, corporations should not be giving at all. King period . Bush there should be a ban on corporate soft money. King you should agree with that, right . Mccain of course not, because theres a 1 billion king but today you called it a joke. Mccain yes, theres a 1 billion loophole in it. King which is . Mccain and its called individual contributions. Mr. Bernard schwartz, who is the head of loral corporation, gave 1 million individually to the clintongore campaign in 1996. A series of events then took place. The transfer of technology to china that allowed them to improve the tech their missile accuracy. King are you saying under his plan you could do that . Mccain under his plan, mr. Schwartz could walk down there and give that 1 million check tomorrow. And thats the reason why this is you cant give. Mccain yes, you he can give. Bush john, theres a 1,000 limit. Mccain he can give 1,000 to the rnc, the dnc or anybody else. Bush this is called the First Amendment, john. Mccain thats what its all about. Larry king one at a time. Mccain thats what its all about. Keyes let me speak to this whole issue, because these folks sit here, two politicians, arguing about whether or not the people or the United States should have under the First Amendment the right peaceable to assemble and seek to petition the government and seek redress of their grievances. I believe that all this talk where the politicians come in and say think about this, theyre going to control our ability to fund those processes through which we control their activities. And by controlling our funding, i presume they will utterly destroy our First Amendment right. There should be no such regulation by politicians of what we the people can do in our own political process. King but the Supreme Court ruled they could. Keyes all of this all of this. King but the Supreme Court ruled they can. Keyes frankly, the Supreme Court has ruled roe v. Wade and a lot of other stuff. King well, wait a minute, is the keyes and as president of the United States excuse me. King hold it. Keyes as president of the United States i will i will sit in an office that is coequal with the Supreme Court, in which i will have an equal responsibility with the court for the interpretation of the constitution. King do you wait a minute. Do you agree that the court has the final word . Keyes let me finish. King you dont think that. Keyes the constitution doesnt say that. Let me finish. King the court is not the final word . Keyes let me finish, larry. I think that its very simple on Campaign Finance reform. Instead of saying that because these politicians cant act with integrity we must give up our rights, let the ones who dont have the integrity give up their offices. And lets have a system thats very simple. No dollar vote without a ballot vote. Only individuals capable of voting. King you share that view . Bush yes, absolutely. Keyes publicize let me finish, though. Publicize it immediately. People will know whats what and have no limits whatsoever on the freedoms of the people of this country. King but you would limit . You just said you would limit. Bush no, i said that under the First Amendment. King no unions. Bush thats corporate thats money where people have no say, what hes saying. No corporate. Keyes no unions, no corporate money, no foreign money. No dollar vote without a ballot vote. Bush we have the great thing about this country is, individuals should be the participants in democracy. The ultimate extension of some of these Campaign Funding reform plans out of washington, d. C. Will mean that the people who decide who the candidates are and who the victors are will be the press. Im sure youre looking forward to that opportunity. King if i gave you 1 million, dont you have to take my phone call . Mccain sure. Ask any ask any. King dont you owe me something . Bush not necessarily. But let me Say Something. King no. Mccain ask any exsenator, ask any exsenator, theyll tell you, theyll tell you. Bush one of the things that we need to do one of the things we need to do is to have full disclosure, is to let the sun shine in, is to let everybody know whos giving to whom. I have done that in this campaign. I put it on the internet, who gave to whom. Ive got a lot of contributors. My average contribution, by the way, is about 350 per person. And i want you to know and i want you to know whos given because i dont want to hid anything. This is about limiting a persons capacity to run ads. We have the proabortion people running ads on me. I didnt like it. But it is their right in america to do so. King well, let me take a break. Well come back. This is a twominute break. There will be only one other break and thats in another halfhour. Well reintroduce the candidates, like if you dont know them. When we come back, we will get into other issues, including abortion, other key domestic issues as well. This is a larry king live election special. Dont go away. [applause] king the primary is this saturday. This is the bipec debate at seawells Banquet Center, in columbia, South Carolina. And our guests are alan keyes, the former ambassador, governor george w. Bush, the governor of texas, and senator john mccain, the republican senator from texas. Mccain arizona. King from arizona. Mccain all right, thank you. King i moved you over. King one state over. Mccain i dont think im allowed in texas. King true. Even a goof helps, when you want to have laughs. Ok, you say today that youre the reformer, youre the outsider. Yet 38 senators support you, 175 congressmen, and 26 governors. Thats not establishment . Bush well, lets start with the governors. Those who know me best support me. King but isnt that establishment . Bush let me finish. Ive worked with the governors. They know me well. They know i can lead. These are citizens that care about the future of the country. Theyve stood up and said, we know the mans record, we know his capacity to bring people together, we know his record of reform in the state of texas has had Great Results for our citizens, and we want him to be the leader. And you mentioned the United States senators, thirtyeight have endorsed my candidacy, for which im grateful. These are citizens from all around the world all around the country, including one from South Carolina, named strom thurmond. They took a look at the three of us, and decided that i ought to be the leader. Theyre looking for a fresh voice from outside. They want somebody to provide leadership. And thats why they supported me. You know, i got defined early on as the insider. And i kept telling people my zip code is austin, texas. Thats where i made my stake. Thats where ive developed my reputation, and thats where those results are coming from. And john and alan both have got washington, d. C. , addresses well, maryland i guess. And so i anyway. King ok, fair answer. He said hes still a reformer, hes still an outsider. They support him because they like him. Mccain well, its fair to say that i did not win, again this year, miss congeniality in the United States senate. So i have to admit that to you. [laughter] king youre not popular in the senate. Mccain no, because ive taken on the Iron Triangle special interests, money, and legislation which weve been grid locked by in washington, d c weve taken government away from the people. And young people are being turned off in droves. And the fact is that ive been involved in lobbying gift lobbying ban, gift ban, lineitem veto. Ive attacked porkbarrel spending and wasteful spending, which is now worse than its ever been. In fact, george said that he would have he supported and would have signed a bill, citizens against government waste, it was the worst, most wasteful spending bill in history. And i thought against it thought against it. And i didnt make a lot of friends, because i point out these porkbarrel spendings, these wasteful spendings. King so. Mccain and ill fight for reform until the last breath i draw so that we can get the American People back connected with their government. Im trying to change this party to bring it into the 21st century as a reform party in the tradition of Theodore Roosevelt. King alan . Keyes i find it so fascinating, we talk about outsiders. I was so far outside this process at one point that the last cycle when we held this debate i wasnt allowed to participate in it. King here . Keyes i think thats pretty far outside. Thats right, here. And in atlanta and elsewhere as well. The only reason im sitting here right now is because i articulate better than most anybody in this country whats on the heart of real republicans and real conservatives around the country, and because i have been out there, not fighting in washington, but fighting at the grass roots, as head, for instance, of citizens against government waste, where you value the praise, i did the work. And so the point being that for both of these gentlemen, who have all the advantages, sit at the apex of a system that supports them in every way, darlings of the media, the person whos out there. [laughter] mr. Keyes excuse me, the person who is out there striving at the grass roots right now to organize folks because of what they have in their heart, not what i have in my pocket, is alan keyes, and reaching folks to such a degree that everybody, even your supporters, acknowledge that the person who presents the republican message best is sitting here, not sitting there. And its about time we asked ourselves. King then why arent you why arent you doing better . Keyes why . The question i asked. Why on earth dont we want to send our best person to face al gore and bill bradley, instead of sending folks into the debate, the halfhearted, the unconvicted, the folks who in point of fact cant make our case as well and effectively as we should make it . King how do you respond to that . Bush well, i respond to it. I put my record on the line in texas. Its the secondbiggest electoral state in the union. It is an important state. You better be able to carry texas in order to become the president. And the people in my state gave me a chance to be the governor for the first time to hold fouryear Consecutive Year terms. I mean, i put my reputation out there. Im a resultsoriented person. I want to say two things. One, im not the darling of the media. [laughter] king and number two. Bush and number two, its a fundamental question. And the question is, who can go to washington with an agenda thats positive and hopeful and optimistic and convince people to follow . Who can gather up support necessary . Who is it thats got the capacity to stand up in the halls of congress and say, follow me . Who has had the experience necessary to earn the will of the people . King and youre saying that john doesnt. Bush well, im saying well, im saying of the three of us here, ive had the experience and the results that prove i can do so. These are good men, dont get me wrong. But ive been there. Ive been there. I look forward to saying to those United States senators, heres a fresh perspective. King well, if you have trouble getting along with them, doesnt he have a point . Mccain ive had 234 major pieces of legislation and amendments passed when ive been in the United States senate and congress. One of the most successful records, whether it be in the area of reform, whether it be in the important issues of telecommunications, such as it be y2k product liability, whether it be internet tax moratorium, or whether it be in every major Foreign Policy issue that has confronted this country. My credentials are well know. But ill tell you what, the Republican Party has lost its way. They have selected an establishment candidate. I dont blame them for doing that. But they lost the last two president ial elections. They lost the last two congressional elections. And unless we open up this party, unless we do what i did in New Hampshire, and thats get thousands and thousands of young people out to register to vote republican, unless we get independents, reconstitute the old reagan democrats im being criticized now because democrats may like me. I want to reconstitute that governing coalition. I can do it. I can lead and i have had experience in a lot of ways that will. Keyes i think i think that what we did last time we ran experience last time and it really worked well in terms of the result. I would love to take both of these records and sit them in an empty chair in a debate against al gore and see who wins. I think that weve got to remember that what you can do to stand before the American People, articulate whats on their heart, how it relates to the great principles of this country, and how we have to address those principles in order to enter the next century with the confidence that as a decent people we will retain our liberty, not keep handing it off to the government, thats the challenge we face, in a year, by the way, when if the spokesman of the Republican Party isnt able to meet the moral challenge of this nations life, we will lose the election because thats where the democrats are vulnerable. King are you questioning the moral are you questioning the moral challenge of. Keyes i question their ability to articulate on the moral issues of our time, a clear and passionate and convicted case that can persuade and move the people of this country. And if you cant do it, by the way, in this election year, economy booming, world relatively at peace, if we dont go out and attack that moral flank exposed by bill clintons lying, perfidy, oathbreaking, and utter shameless betrayal of our moral heritage, we will lose and we will deserve to lose. King lets take a moral issue. Bush let me say one thing about this. This is a really important part of the debate. This is the fundamental issue that republicans and independents in this state are going to have to look at, who can lead . Who can lead . King morally. Bush with all due respect. King are you talking morally . Bush well, morally any of us at this table can perform better than William Jefferson clinton any of us will bring honor to the office. [applause] but the fundamental question is, when we talk education, for example, whos got a record . Whos got a record of reform. Let me finish. King his question was a moral question. Bush well, thats part of it, no question about it. Part of it is to bring honor and dignity to the office and all three of us will do that. All three of us will do that. But part of it as well is to earn the creditability of the American People, so like when we talk about education, who is it that has reformed the system . Who has got tangible results and can say that our test scores amongst africanamerican students or hispanic students are up . Whos vision is it that is improving a lot of people . Because, you see, if we dont educate our children, its unlikely that the American Dream will be able to touch every willing heart. Thats my record. King are you saying education, governor, is a moral issue . Bush well, im saying education is an incredibly important issue and if we dont educate our children, were going to have real moral problems. Mccain could i make a quick comment . Look, the job that i want to take is to inspire a generation of Young Americans to commit themselves to causes greater than their selfinterest, thats what the great president s in history have been able to do. On election day in New Hampshire, thousands of young people went out, registered republican and voted and voted for me. Cindy and i got on a plane, arrived at the airport in greenville at 3 00 a. M. There were 800 College Students out there. Now, ill admit there was not a mosh pit, but there was certainly an enthusiastic group of Young Americans out there. And thats the enthusiasm were generating and thats what inspirational leadership is all about and i can do that. Keyes two things. I would have to say from what would i first, senator mccain, youve served these youngsters enough beer. I suppose theyll look really enthusiastic. [laughter] mccain you know, thats quite a commentary on those young people. Keyes yes, its quite a commentary on them. But its quite a commentary on those who would take young folks, some of them not even of age, and serve them beer. But leave that aside. King are you saying he served beer to minors . Keyes well, look, he he did not do this. King ok. Keyes i presume his campaign did. But second point though, lets take an example of leadership leadership in this campaign. We had a controversy over Bob Jones University and its policies, right . King right. Keyes now it seems to me, when you have a problem like that, does leadership consist of going into Bob Jones University, where serious questions, in fact, do exist about religious bigotry and racial bigotry going in, taking the applause, risking nothing, because you refuse to raise the issues . Thats what g. W. Bush did. Or does it consist of getting on your high horse, refusing to go talk to goodhearted christian people, because you believed a bunch of prejudicial slanders in the press, and then staying away, not even carrying a message of integrity to them . Or does it consist, in fact, in going in, carrying a message of truth and integrity about this countrys moral principles, and then looking them in the eye and saying, im a black Roman Catholic christian, married to an indianamerican women. And if you cant deal with the demons of racial bigotry, and religious bigotry, and cast them out, youll accomplish no good for this country . King why. Keyes which is the better leader . You tell me. King why didnt you speak against bigotry at bob jones . Bush i was asked the question, do i support his policy of no interracial dating . I said, of course not. Of course not. My little brother, jeb, the governor of florida married a girl named columba, from mexico a fabulous part of our family, a great person. So please dont insinuate, in any shape way, shape or form, that i support. King but they couldnt date. Bush well, thats fine, but i walked in and talked about how our conservative cause must be compassionate. Thats what ive talked about. I talked about how the principles of conservatism can lift the spirit of america, how we can improve peoples lives, thats what ive talked about. Keyes in your. Bush thats what i talked you didnt hear my speech. Keyes in your speech, sir, you said nothing about the religious bigotry and racial bigotry. Bush i i talked. Keyes that had in fact to be dealt with. On and if asked basis, these questions are not enough. What i did was look folks in the eye and tell them, im willing to lose every vote over the issue of defending young babes in the womb, and im willing to lose every vote over the issue of standing with integrity against religious and racial bigotry. King you did not speak. Keyes what votes have these folks been willing to risk to stand for any principle . King dont dominate, alan. John. Mccain well, alan, ive been taking a few risks in my life and im proud of those risks. Some of them are proudest points of my life. Look, i was not invited to attend bob jones. I understand that its a fine academic school. If i had been invited i would have gone and i would have started by saying, as i have gone to other places that people are not in favor of me, and i would have said, look, what youre doing in this ban on interracial dating is stupid, its idiotic and it is incredibly cruel to many people. I also happen to have an adoptive daughter whos from bangladesh, and i dont think that she should be subjected to those kinds of things. In fact, i will stand up and fight against those. And so, look. King but you would have gone and said that, but you werent invited. Mccain if id have been if id have been invited, of course, because youve got to bring the message to get these people up into the modern times. King and you said you went you went to deliver a message. Bush i did. King ok. Why didnt you then go to the log cabin republicans, a gay group who you dont agree with, to deliver a message to them . Bush ive got gay supporters. I dont ask their Sexual Orientation, though. King but i mean why didnt you speak, then, before that group . Bush well, they had made a commitment to john mccain. King oh. But they invited you. And so. Mccain i have no no knowledge that they have made a commitment to my campaign. Bush well, i thought they raised money for you. Mccain it doesnt mean. Bush it doesnt matter. Lets talk about that issue. Each person needs to be judged with their heart and soul. I dont ask the question what somebodys Sexual Orientation is. I dont ask the question. King so if you have gays working for you, thats fine. And you dont have a problem. Youd appoint gays in the cabinet, et cetera. Bush well, im not going to ask what their Sexual Orientation is. King oh, so you wouldnt know. Bush im going to appoint conservative people in the cabinet. Its none of my business what somebodys now when somebody makes it my business, like on gay marriage, im going to stand up and say i dont support gay marriage. I support marriage between men and women. King so if a state were voting on gay marriage, you would suggest to that state not to approve it . Bush the state can do what they want to do. Dont try to trap me in this states issue like youre trying to get me into. King you just did. You have an opinion. [laughter] governor bush i have an opinion. King do you have. Bush in my state of texas, if we tried to have gay marriage, i would campaign against it. King if your state of texas then proposed the confederate flag, you would campaign against it . Bush weve got the lone star flag flying over texas. Lets talk about that issue. King were going to move that. Are you offended . Mccain before we leave that issue, can i say look, i met with the log cabin republicans. I think republicans and president s should meet with every group. We should meet with every group of people. They dont have to agree or disagree. And to say somehow that some people are excluded from our party who identify themselves as republicans i disagree with the log cabin republicans on gay marriages, on the dont ask dont tell, on a broad variety issues. But i agree with them on a stronger defense, lower taxes, less regulation. So were in agreement on some issues. And i, as president of the United States, and i as the nominee of my party, will meet with and not necessarily agree with, everyone in the Republican Party. King do you the senators had a little less time, so i want to hear him out. Do you agree as barry goldwater, who you succeeded in the senate, i believe, told me once that there are gays at normandy . There are gays on bataan . Mccain im sure that all that is true. King why do you sort of. Senator mccain the fact is, those gays were people, as is today in the military, dont ask, dont tell, situation. I support that. I think that george does as well. When you have people like general colin powell, general norman schwarzkopf, our most respected military leaders who tell us that thats the policy that works, that thats the best way we can have the finest army in the world which we dont for other reasons then i have to support a policy that the most respected people in america would support. King do you disagree . Keyes well, several things, its a whole lot easier to go meet with homosexuals when, as senator mccain said in a meeting the other day, i understand you believe homosexuality is not a sin. If you believe it is a sin, then going and meeting with sinners and identifying yourself in that way when youre educating your children to think otherwise is a little harder for you. King but you. Keyes now, i understand that is an issue of conscience. And im not trying to dictate it to anybody and wouldnt try to dictate. But we are living in a Society Today where there is the use of coercive government power to try to prevent people from speaking out and acting according to their religious view on this particular issue, trying to define hatecrimes in such a way that biblical beliefs are going to become incitement to hatred. A lot of the christian folks in this country understand whats going on, but apparently these two gentlemen dont. The other thing that i would have to say, the dontask, donttell policy is typical of the Clinton Administration. It is a dishonest, shameful, dishonorable policy that winks and nods at gay folks to get them into the military, leaves the regulations on the books so that people in authority, if they come into information that somebody has violated those regulations, dont know whether they should or should not enforce them. King what would be your policy . Keyes what happens in a military when you have regulations on the books that you selectively enforce in a way that shows favoritism . You undermine cohesion, morale, respect for authority. And honesty. Military people should be what you see is what you get, not dont ask, dont tell. Bush the role of the commander in chief is to clearly define what the mission of the military is. The mission of the military is to fight and be able to win war, and therefore prevent war from happening in the first place. The commander in chief must let the general officers understand what the goal is and ask the general officers to prepare a military of high morale and high standing, capable of meeting that mission. And the senator is right. Generals came together and said, this is the best way for us to prepare our military for the mission. And thats whats important to understand as the commander in chief. It is, thats whats important for the commander in chief, alan. Keyes i think its a little disingenuous. The rest of us. Bush nothing is disingenuous. Keyes let me finish, i just said a little disingenuous to pretend. Hold it that the generals came together and begged for this policy, when we good and well know that it was a policy imposed by the Political Forces in this society. King well, let me put this way, mr. Keyes to turn the military into an arena of sexual experimentation in the people. King what would your policy be . Mr. Keyes who are in charge politically didnt have the guts to stand up and defend the military. Thats what happened. Bush youre getting repetitive. Keyes thats what happened. King what would your policy be . Keyes i would return to the ban on homosexual activity in the military. King ban . Keyes return to the ban. Its the only policy consistent with both the integrity of the military, the effort to limit sexual tension throughout the military, and the need to have a policy that can be clearly understood and rigorously enforced. King why is that wrong . Mccain i dont mind being criticized. Its getting to be a regular kind of routine in these debates. But i really do question his comments about our military leaders. General colin powell is one the finest men ive ever known in my life. And to somehow infer that general colin powell was coerced, or forced to adopt a policy that he didnt believe in is a great disservice to one of the greatest men in the history of this country. Mr. Keyes a point of personal privilege, it is not factually on the record you go back and take a look. Those military leaders did not favor this policy in the beginning. They were brought to favor it after Political Leadership failed to stand up in their defense. King is he going to be either of you the secretary of state colin powell . Mccain sure. King sure . Mccain thats one thing im sure well agree on. King your secretary of state, too . Bush im not telling. King its definite that youre saying yes . Mccain oh, hed be marvelous. Bush oh, hes a great man, no question about it. But one of the things we shouldnt be doing, right here on the eve of the South Carolina primary, is speculating out loud on who were going to pick. King why . Bush well, because its listen, were talking about philosophy. You know, we go to one state and soandso is going to be in the cabinet, you know, and go to another state and name somebody else. Thats kind of that cheapens the process. What we need to do is get elected on principles and issues. Mccain theres a few outstanding men ive had the chance to know in my life. He can serve anywhere he wants to in my administration. Bush hes a great man, no question about that. Senator mccain anywhere. Hes the 800pound gorilla. Bush how about your administration . King all right, alan. Keyes well, let me just say, i think im going to wait and see. The kind of folks who are putting together the keyes campaign will be offering an entirely different perspective on our politics, because all of them come from the grass roots of this country, and speak for its heart. King ten years ago sorry, eight years ago on this program, i asked Vice President quayle what he would do in the terrible instance that his daughter needed an abortion. He was very prolife. And he said, well, hed try to talk her out of it. And he would go with her to the clinic. And hold her hand and love her. Governor bush yes, but i will not king would you . Bush im not going to drag my daughter into it. Larry king what do you mean . All right, your niece. Bush no, im not dragging personal. Look, you want my views on abortion, ill give you my views on abortion. I believe the next president should set this goal. Every child, born and unborn, protected in law and welcomed into life. Thats what the next president ought to do. The president and the question is which one of us can lead america to appreciate life. The political questions around abortion are these, and this is one thats going to differentiate us from the democrat nominee, for example, is i will sign a ban on partialbirth abortion. All three of us will sign a ban on partialbirth abortion. Vice president gore, if hes the nominee, will sit there and justify it. I dont know how he can justify partialbirth abortion. A leader is someone that brings people together and understand the power of adoption. John is a loving adoptive parent, thats a its a loving act, its a loving alternative to abortion. A leader is someone who brings people together, both republicans and democrats in my state, to pass a parental notification law, a parental notification law that will reduce abortions in the state of texas. King should the woman be punished, john . Mccain no. King she starts the crime. Mccain george, do you believe in the exemption in abortion, case of abortion, for rape, incest and life of the mother . Then, you know, its interesting, you were talking about printed material thats mailed out. Heres one that says that george w. Bush supports the prolife plank. The prolife plank. Bush i do. Senator mccain yes. Your position is that you believe theres an exemption for rape, incest and the life of the mother, but you want the platform that youre supposed to be leading to have no exemption. Help me out there, will you . Bush i will, i will. Mccain thank you. Bush the platform talks about it doesnt talk about what specifically should be in the constitutional amendment. Senator mccain the exemptions in it. Bush please let me finish, john. Mccain and you know that very well. Bush john, let me finish, let me finish. The platform speaks about a constitutional amendment. It doesnt refer to how that constitutional amendment ought to be defined. Senator mccain the platform, it has no exceptions. Bush john, i think we need to keep the platform the way it is. This is a prolife party. May i finish, please . We need to be a prolife party. We need to say, life is precious and thats what our platform refers to. And thats why we need to leave it the same. Now, i fully recognize good people can disagree on this issue. But the fundamental question amongst the republicans is which one of us has got the capacity to lead our nation to understand the value of life, those of living, those yet unborn, and those elderly in america who are subject to physicianassisted suicides, for example . King alan, you say a life is a life, period, right . Mr. Keyes first of all, i think that is a perfect illustration, this discussion of the problem we have in the party. One individual who doesnt really accept the prolife position of the party, and another who says he accepts it, but then takes positions that are inconsistent with it, so when push comes to shove he wont be able to defend it. And both willing to take at a personal level a position that will destroy you in debate against the democrats. When al gore stands there or bill bradley and looks you in the eye, one of you or the both of you, and says, senator mccain, you said your daughter, that would be her decision. It would be up to her to decide, how on earth can you represent a party that would take away from every other American Woman what you would give to your own daughter . These are folks let me finish who take a position that they cant defend and will then go out and represent us in such a way that we get defeated by our opponents. Larry king ok. Mr. Keyes it is time we stopped doing this because this doesnt make any sense . Larry king we owe senator mccain some time so im going to let him take the stage. Mccain i told you this once before, alan, and im sorry i have to tell you again. Ive seen enough killing in my life, a lot more than you have. I know i know how valuable and precious human life is, and i will not listen to your lectures about how i should treat this very important issue of the sanctity of human life. So, i hope youll give me the respect that i give you and do not bring, please, my daughter into it. It is a family decision. Thank you very much. Keyes see, but its a family decision. Mccain thank you very much. Keyes lets be fair to the American People, senator. Senator mccain thank you very much. Lets leave my daughter out of it please. Keyes lets be fair to the American People. Im a prolife person. That prolife position applies to women who are daughters and who are wives. Larry king we need a break. We have to be able to stand before the American People and justify. Larry king we need a break. We will be right back. We have a half hour to go. And Jeff Greenfield will moderate a panel talking about what you are watching. Dont go away. King were back on this special larry king live election 2000 edition, coming to you from seawells Banquet Center in columbia, South Carolina under the auspices of bipec, the South Carolina business and industry political education committee. Senator mccain, much has been made in these past debates about tax proposals. And we know that alan keyes is against the tax. Would you simply for me, whats the essential difference between yours and the governors . Mccain we have two surpluses, one that goes into the Social Security trust fund. There is 2 trillion there. If george bush or alan keyes, or donald duck were president of the United States, there would be 2 trillion in there because thats the payroll tax that people pay. Then we have the other nonSocial Security surplus. I want a balanced approach. A working families tax cut governor bush has 38 of his tax cut go to the wealthiest one percent of americans pay down the debt, Social Security and medicare. If were going to save Social Security, weve got to take a bunch of the nonSocial Security surplus, pump it into the Social Security system, because we all know that it is going broke. If we do that, then people can then invest part of their own payroll taxes in investments of their choice. The difference between governor bushs proposal and mine, is that i put a whole lot of money into Social Security, medicare and paying down the debt. He puts a whole lot of money into tax cuts. And thats the difference. King and why, before he responds, is reducing the debt more important than a tax cut . Mccain because wed lay this obligation on another generation of Young Americans, 3. 6 trillion. At town hall meeting after town hall meeting, i have average americans stand up to me and say to me, senator mccain, all these years of running deficits, weve accumulated this debt. We are paying more interest, as much interest, almost, on it as we are in spending on national defense. We ought to pay down that debt, and not saddle the next generation of Young Americans with it. King one of the problems in selling that, though, is the debt does not call you. The debt doesnt bug you today, right . Right . Mccain look, Alan Greenspan just recently said we shouldnt have these massive tax cuts like governor bush is proposing. But working families need the tax cut. King governor . Governor bush what Alan Greenspan said, is if its governor bush Alan Greenspan says if it is possible to discipline congress to pay down the debt, that is fine, but short of disciplining congress, which i do not think we should do, is the ought to have a tax cut. My plan is this. There is a 4 trillion surplus. 2 trillion goes to Social Security which pays down debt. I spent about half of that on tax cuts and half of it as a cushion, perhaps more debt repayment, emergency spending. The difference in our plans is i know whose money we are dealing with. We are dealing with the peoples money and not the governments money. I want to give the people their money back. If they are going to have a tax cut, everybody ought to have a tax cut. This washington, d. C. View about targeted tax cuts is done through polls and focus groups. If you pay taxes in america you ought to get a tax cut. If you are a family of four making 50,000 you get a 50 tax cut. I reduce the rate to 10 . It does this, and this is important. There are people on the outskirts of poverty, unlike like single moms working the toughest job in america. If she has two kids is making 22,000, for every additional dollar she earns, she pays a higher marginal rate on her taxes then someone making i will 200,000. Cut taxes on the top which encourages entrepreneurship. I hear those voices, i hear those voices on the outskirts of poverty, and i have a plan that says we are going to reduce the tolls for the middle class. That is what we are saying. We will reduce the higher marginal rate. If someone is working hard, we should put more money in their pocket. There is a fundamental difference in opinion. My plan saves and strengthens Social Security, pays down debt but it also recognizes the most risky proposition, to leave money to be spent in washington dc. Larry king a person making 1 million gets what kind of reduction . Governor bush it goes from 39. 6 to 33 . By far, the vast majority of my tax cuts goes to the bottom end. Senator mccain that is what he took offense of when i talked about bill clinton. Let me make one comment, it is not the washington mentality it is the grownup mentality. It is the grownup mentality that recognizes we have obligations and we have to pay them off. George says Congress Might do something about it, assuming it might spend it, assuming that the president of the United States is a hapless bystander. Bill clinton is forcing the congress of United States with threats of veto and shutting down government to spend more money. I, asident president of the United States would vote to pay less. That is what i will do as president. If they override my veto, i will make them famous because i can stop it. I will not be a helpless bystander. I will not let congress to spend money. Governor bush let me say one thing and then he can speak. That shows the difference of mentality. I do not trust congress, i trust people. I want to get people their money back. This is a realistic plan i want to get done, and john, grownup or nongrownup, i know that is a line you are trying to come across with but it is weak. Either you trust the people or you trust the government. Our Republican Party ought to stand for trusting the people to spend their own money. The taxes are the highest they have been since world war ii. Mr. Keyes do not apologize because i feel that last sentiment is exactly right or it the only problem is, if you really are going to trust the people, then why have this debate in which you have to wo folks are doing over how they are going to use their gatekeeper role to determine how much of your own money you get to keep . That is what the income tax system does to america. It is not the system our Founding Fathers put in place. The system they put in place is compatible with a state of a truly free people, a system where you earn 100 and you bring it home and until you decide what to do with it, the government does not get a look at it. Let me finish. You do not wait for the government, some politician to give your tax cut. By avoiding expenditures on the taxed items out there, you will be able to avoid the tax. Why . Because under the original constitution, the government was funded with tear, duties and sales taxes, taxes you do not pay under income. Since you do not pay them on your income, you do not get into this humiliating business of having politicians arguing over how much money you get to keep. Mr. Keyes do any of you let me finish. You did not interrupt them. One last question, because it is also true, you do not have this humility business of politicians arguing over how much money you get to keep, and youre also put in the position where you control every last dollar of your own money and you have the first use of it. Should beat we sh debating. They should not have this control. Larry king this question will be for the governor. The governor of illinois has stopped no executions in his state, discovering that people were freed for not doing the crime. They got out because of dna. Can we assume that that is a pretty good idea, if dna is proving a lot of people, that you should curtail executions in texas . Governor bush no. Larry king no . Governor bush no. I presided over executions in my state. I am convinced that everyone who is convicted was guilty of the crime. Larry king that everyone on death row is guilty . Governor bush we will adjudicate those cases when they,. , up. Let me finish. We have had a series of people executed in my state. These are people who were found guilty by a jury of their peers. These are people with full access to the courts of law. There is no doubt in my mind that each person who has been executed in our state was guilty of the crime committed. I support the Death Penalty for this reason. When the Death Penalty is administered in a swift and sure , it will save lives. Larry king the governor of illinois knows if you found the dna got some people off of texas off the death row governor bush then we would examine each case. You are asking about the people who up and put to death in my state. Larry king you know they all did it . How do you stand on this . Senator mccain i think of the new technology of dna would i think provoke a review, clearly of cases that may be questionable, but i certainly would not abandon the Death Penalty. If there is evidence that there is some controversy where this new technology could help authenticate the fact that the person is guilty of the crime, there is nothing wrong with that. I think it is important that we recognize that the Death Penalty is an appropriate punishment for some crimes. Larry king do you agree . Mr. Keyes i think that is absolutely right. I think in fact the Death Penalty is required to show up or respect for life in the morality through the law. The law has to be the first educator and the Death Penalty is part of educating people that there are lines you should not cross. Larry king what do you think about racial profiling . Governor bush i am against it. Larry king if you were president , you would sign the executive order . Governor bush i would work with Police Authorities to make sure they do not racially profile. Senator mccain of course. Let me point out that we have had some people, cross our border that were terrorists. If you can specifically identify a suspect and have a drawing of the description, clearly you will want to stop people that fit that description. You do not stop everybody just for any reason. Lets be clear, the security of our borders was nearly violated a short time ago, and we have to be far more vigilant than we have in the past. Larry king alan . Mr. Keyes i know everyone thinks it is doing favor to our racial group, but if our police and enforcement people have the experience that a given crime is disproportionately being committed by folks from a given ethnic group, we are now going to pass a law that says you cannot notice that . Larry king but they have not done the crime yet. Mr. Keyes we are going to pass a law and enforce a law that says we cannot notice the characteristics of individuals who commit crimes and develop profiles to help folks pursue the solving of crimes based on our experience . Experience is not prejudice. Prejudice is an opinion formed without experience. It is an opinion formed based on experience is not prejudice, it is judgment. I think our law enforcements ought to be able to use experience. Larry king you would not be upset being stopped . Mr. Keyes if there are black folks out there, disproportionately committing certain crimes, my parents raised me to know i represent the race with everything i do, and i wish that everyone would take that attitude and stop committing crimes and doing things that bring it add bring a Bad Reputation on to people. Larry king if that would stop you would not be angry . Mr. Keyes i just told you i would be angry. Governor bush we had a hispanic guy in my state who got stopped. He got stopped because he was in the wrong part of town. I did not appreciate that. Senator mccain bad things have happened and they should be stopped. Larry king this conservativeliberal thing. Are you saying john mccain is a liberal . Governor bush no, i am not. Larry king you mentioned conservativism, implying he is not. Governor bush i am not implying anything. John mccain can define his own positions and i can define mine. I think he is a conservative and a fine man. Larry king why mentioned conservativism . Governor bush because i am more conservative on different issues. Senator mccain we do not like to go around for train ourselves as liberals. [laughter] governor bush let me Say Something about this business, but the truth of the matter is, what we are trying to do is nominate someone to end the clinton era. That is what we are in the process of doing. Our objective is to end the clinton era in washington dc. That is what this primary is all about, and one of us is going to emerge. One of us is going to emerge. The objective has got to bring some common sense and integrity to washington dc. That is what the primary is all about. Larry king john. I know you so well in so long, so i some times forget to say governor. Governor bush we wont hold it against you. Senator mccain please, call me senator. Or your highness. [laughter] look, george bush is a good man. Alan keyes is a good man. We have had some differences in opinion. This campaign spiral down. I want the negativism out of it. South carolina people deserve better than what they have been given. We want to lift up america and not turned on people. Tear down people. I am a proud conservative. I believe that my two opponents are proud conservatives, but what this is about is articulation of the issues with the future of this country. No one knows what challenges we will face both foreign and domestic. I think this campaign is all about vision. Larry king do you think you have been labeled liberal . Senator mccain i have been labeled everything, except i think they have missed fascist. Ask observers, this is probably the Nastiest Campaign people have seen a long time, but i am enjoying it. This is a great and exhilarating experience. I am Luke Skywalker getting out of the death star. John, youush hey, are playing the victim here. Remember who called who untrustworthy. Senator mccain you wanted to cut taxes by 40 billion, george. Mr. Keyes can i make a substantive remark here . [laughter] the rhetoric sounds good about ending the clinton era, but words have no meaning if you can apply those words to think so radically different that they have no similarity. Lets not disrespect the language. I find it hard to believe he is going to end the clinton era by continuing his dont ask dont tell policies, the policies toward the wto and china and so forth and so on, continuing federal domination of education, the income taxes. We have folks calling themselves conservatives who are going to continue the same junk we get from the Clinton Administration. What is the point of the label . Larry king does it annoy you that the president S Performance rating is high . Governor bush it does not amaze me, i mean it doesnt annoy me, it amazes me. It must be the Dow Jones Industrial average is much more to life than the Dow Jones Industrial average. Larry king 2 unemployment . Governor bush the Dow Jones Industrial average is high, but there are a lot of people wondering if the future of america belongs to them. Our failed schools are creating two societies in this country, and we better have a president that is doing some good about. If you are suggesting i want to federalize the education system, you do not know my plan. You just do not know my plan. Senator mccain we are in such incredibly prosperous economic times, but theyre also polls that show 54 of the American People are suffering from clinton fatigue. As fast and far as the Vice President wants to run away from him, there is an old saying that you might remember about joe lewis, and the sister about al and this is true about al gore. He can run but he cannot hide. Larry king do all of you expected tough race in november . Governor bush there are not a lot of mothers and dads naming their sons, bill clinton. [laughter] larry king we have about 10 minutes. I am going to get each of you a minute and a half to wind things down. In these final moments, do some hopscotching for topics. Around the world. Should jerusalem the capital of israel . Governor bush yes. Mr. Keyes yes. I think we ought to recognize it. Senator mccain yes, immediately. That will make the Peace Process much simpler. As soon as the palestinians and others know exactly where the the capital is, they will be off the table. Larry king should the United States the involved in settling disputes . Mr. Keyes yes. Larry king we should be involved in ireland and england . Mr. Keyes it is the role we play given our position in the world. Where we can play it constructively, we ought to do. Senator mccain i give senator George Mitchell credit for the fine job he has done in ireland. I want to point out, being the worlds greatest superpower has luxuries and great responsibilities. We have to understand us. Governor bush unfortunately, the mental effort was a good effort but it is falling apart. I think we ought to work with work to keep the peace. The danger is that a president who worries about his standing in the polls will try to post an american solution in the middle east. We cannot have that in order for there to be real peace. Both parties must agree to the terms and come to an agreement. The role of the United States is to encourage and mediate. Larry king are you saying the polls will not matter . Governor bush they should not matter. I am not talking about someone trying to earn a Nobel Peace Prize and taking our friends and demand our friends accept something that is unacceptable. We cannot dictate the terms of peace, we must lead to achieve peace. Larry king does Public Opinion count . Senator mccain as president of the United States, i will never take a poll. In june of 1950, when north korea attacked south korea, if harry truman had taken a poll, we would have never gone. That was in important chapter in our winning. The cold war. The most obscene chapter in the recent history was when the president of the United States refused to prepare for ground operations and refused airpower used effectively because he wanted them flying at 15,000 feet where they killed innocent civilians because they were dropping bombs from such high altitude. No, i will never take a poll on a matter of national security. Mr. Keyes i do not take polls in politics now, so i would not take polls in Foreign Policy, but i would say this though, i hope you do not mean to imply that the president does not have a responsibility to develop a sound base to Political Support in this country for his foreignpolicy. In vietnam, we learned of the horrid results that occur when you do not have that president ial leadership. Polls or no polls, you do have a responsibility to represent the American People and persuade them of what you are doing in Foreign Policy and not to commit them to war unless they support you in it. Larry king we discussed the nuclear question earlier. Are any of you in favor of production . Governor bush not yet. I want to make sure that the russians comply. Senator mccain no. We need to continue before we break one of those lakes. Legs. We better be pretty sure that they are not necessary. We do need to pursue ballistic defense systems. I want to say, i am going to call some admirals and generals over to the white house. We need more progress on this missile defense. Mr. Keyes i think it is a failure on the leadership part of the Clinton Administration. Larry king tax the internet . Governor bush we need to keep a moratorium in place. We do not know with the world will look like five years and now, and we should keep the moratorium in place. Mr. Keyes i would keep it in place for a while, but i would forewarn people that congress on commerce on the internet, once you get it established an infrastructure, is going to be taxed. I think is unfair to lie to folks about that, because as enough commerce moves into that arena, do not tell me politicians will not resist it. They will not. Senator mccain i will veto any bill that crosses my desk that reinstitutes the sales tax. We need to make it permanent. These people that are making huge and massive investments on the internet need the confidence that it will not be tax. We cannot choke this baby in the cradle. I do not care about these governors. We are talking of the engine of americas economy. They ought to understand that and get their greedy hands off of it so the American Economy can grow. Mr. Keyes if the governors are speaking for a lot of people out there working in the nonvirtual marketplace, we are going to look at it awfully strangely that they are operating a little store in their town and they are going to be taxed, at some of the goes on the internet, once it is established is not going to be taxed. I see new grounds for it. Governor bush there should be no federal tax on the internet. Wait a minute. Will we need to do is make sure we understand before we Say Something like that with where the world is headed. We are just learning and that is why the moratorium is in place. Larry king we are running close on time. Do you gentlemen think that inherently, any american is entitled to get a prescription . Governor bush inherently entitled . Inherently what the elderly need is a modern medicare plan. Larry king do you feel everybody that needs a prescription should get it . Governor bush yes i do, but it is tackling to be affordable and accessible if we have al gore and bill clinton tried to nationalize health care. Mr. Keyes i think you have to be careful, because if you say that, that means someone else is obliged to provide the prescription. Larry king but you do not want to let someone die. Mr. Keyes excuse me, but that a slave labor. We need a market oriented system that is going to provide access and benefits to all and that is what i would work to achieve. Senator mccain every american should have access to health insurance, but we have a big problem with seniors who cannot afford prescription drugs and we need to address that right now. If it requires a government program, i will support a government program. Larry king what is going to happen saturday in South Carolina . Governor bush right here . We are going to have an election. Larry king are you going to win . Governor bush i am going to win because the people have heard my message that im coming with a message as a reformer who got positive results in education, welfare and business growth. Larry king how are you going to do . Mr. Keyes i have no idea. God does not turn you down. He just does the right thing. Larry king and you . Senator mccain i think we are going to do just fine. I think we will win. I think it will be close. Really, when we talk about reform, the key to reform is to get the government out of the hands of the special interests, and you have to have a real Campaign Finance reform. Not one that leaves a billion dollar loophole. Larry king we have three and a half minutes left. One minute each. Allen, anything you want to say . Mr. Keyes i think it is important that republicans go to the polls and vote their hearts. I have heard too many people say, they think i say the right things and have a vision for the country and need to restore our moral priorities, that our allegiance to the principle that our rights come from god in need to be exercised. Reclaim our liberties, abolish the income tax, get School Choice in place. And then i asked, are you going to vote for me . No. You will not get what you want if you do not have the guts to vote your conscience. Then this country will never get back on the right track. Larry king governor bush. Governor bush i want to thank all the folks in South Carolina. They have heard my message, that if you are tired of the gridlock in washington dc, lets bring a leader into washington. If you are tired of this business about putting one group against another, why not have a uniter rather than a divider . If you want someone that has an agenda that is positive and hopeful and optimistic, a growth agenda for our economy, a peace agenda for the world, and education agenda that refuses to leave children behind, they are hearing that. They are saying, we want to governor bush. I want to thank the people of the state and asked for the vote. I want to go out and vote on my behalf on saturday and vote for me, and if you are for me, take some friends and neighbors with you. Larry king senator mccain. Senator mccain i want to thank the people of South Carolina for the wonderful, warm reception and friendships that we have made here in town hall meetings, the trips around the state. It has been truly marvelous. I want to reform the government. I want to reform education, military, health care but i cannot do that unless we get the government out of the hands of the special interests. Some have come lately to the reform agenda. I have been there for years and i have been fighting it. We will win on other reform issues. Most of all, i want to recount a story that happened in New Hampshire. A lady stood up and she looked me in the eye and she did not have a question. She said, senator mccain, it is vitally important to me that the statesnt of the united always tell me the truth. I promise you as president of the United States, based in my life, principles and my own dear friends, i will always tell you the truth, no matter what. Larry king you would take the same old . Governor bush of course. Larry king we want to thank everyone here for putting this thing together an extraordinary in extraordinary circumstances. We want to thank senator mccain, alan keyes, and governor bush. You want to urge you to vote on saturday if you live in South Carolina. There are two big primaries coming up as well, michigan and arizona. Please vote there. Also, stay tuned as Jeff Greenfield will moderate a panel about this debate. From columbia, South Carolina, for all of the folks in the room, for our candidates, thank you very much for joining us. I am larry king. Good night. [applause] cspanng campaign 2016, takes you on the road to the white house as we follow the candidates on cspan, cspan radio and cspan. Org. All weekend, American History tv is featuring greenville, South Carolina. In 1918, Greenville County was used as a Training Facility for world war i troops. The camp closed in 1919 due to an influenza outbreak. Cspan cities tour staff visited many sites, showcasing the citys rich history. Learn more about greenville all weekend on American History tv. Professor abrams South Carolina is important in president ial elections because of the sequence in the primaries. It is the big one right after New Hampshire. You have iowa, New Hampshire and then South Carolina. Those three states are different demographically and culturally. South carolina is perhaps the first place you can attest your appeal to a southern audience, typically more conservative, not just for republicans but for democrats, Democratic Candidates and how they appeal to africanamerican voters. There are greater numbers of those in the low country and the charleston area. Hillary and sanders are basically looking at, sanders is going to think, how a going to how am i going to do with africanamericans . This is the first opportunity to gauge that. It is not just for republicans, but for others in the party as well. They come to places like bob jones, because some consider us the old, warm image of the bible belt and someone has said we are not just the bible belt, we are the buckle of the bible belt. If you get attention here thank you, it is good to be back among friends. Professor abrams then it basically expands outward, beyond just the campus itself. There obviously, it is targeting the evangelical network which is pretty well organized. I think what people misunderstand is they think it is more unified than it is. It is fractured like other groups, but they want to get their share of it and there percentage, and even if you are not identified specifically as a evangelical candidate, you can still get a percentage. You do not want them to be angry with you, so one way you do it is symbolically, you visit liberty or bob jones. Candidates in this current president ial cycle are returning. I think it is number one, dr. Pettit wants it to happen, which is appropriate and wise. Number two, the candidates want to come back and they are willing to overcome any adverse reaction there might be. I think since 2000, we have basically, there has been some sort of redemption, i hope, that we could be acceptable to president ial candidates visiting, when they come. [applause] our cities tour staff recently visited greenville, South Carolina to learn about its rich history. Learn more at cspan. Org cities tour. You are watching American History tv, all weekend, every weekend on cspan3. Im trying still to decide what candidate to support. Im trying to decide between the governors who have executive experience, or some of the other candidates like Ted Cruz Marco rubio. The most important issue to me as national service. There are more than 5 million Young Americans that are ready to step forward and server country for a year with programs like americorps, the peace corps. Up next on the presidency, roosevelt, Theodore Roosevelt greatgreatgrandson talks about the president evolving theory of the constitution. When theses moments debates have shaped National Policy as they did during the world war ii japaneseamerican internment under president friendly roosevelt. The Commonwealth Club of california hosted this event. It is about one hour