Transcripts For CSPAN3 Ricardo 20240706

Conversation tonight. We have dr. Rick moreira, Ricardo Pereira visiting professor of military history of the u. S. Army war college at carlisle barracks, pennsylvania previously a professor of military history at the school of advanced military studies at the Us Army Command and general Staff College at fort kansas. Hes also a veteran of the u. S. Army. He earned his m. A. And ph. D. From marquette. Hes the author of for liberty and the republic, the american citizen, a soldier, 1775 to 1861 and many, many other articles helping us understand in the development of the united states. Hes worked on his new book while he was a member of Washington Fellow on the washington libraries, fellow class of 2016 2017. I remember he would be out there in the reading room working and. I would yell at him faster, write faster. I want book. Ive been wanting this book for many, many, many. And so im delighted tonight to welcome and lets give him a big warm mount vernon welcome to discuss his new book, feeding Washingtons Army surviving the valley forge winter 78. Please join me in welcoming dr. Rick herrera. Rick. Pertinent to the. Thank we very much support cspan being with us tonight to support this, lecture and and thats the pause here to get the proper multiple going on so that they can hear us and you know weve had cspan up at the library for many years and were delighted always when theyre here to extend the reach of the work that we do. So thank you all for your work as and and welcome to cspan audience will be enjoying this hopefully for years come record era and in talking about feeding Washingtons Army surviving the valley forge winter of 1778. Im really good its really good to see you again, rick. It is its its been far too long. Ill share earlier that having been a Research Fellow here at mount vernon, it is it was and remains one of the highlights of my career as a historian, when i came here, i was offered the opportunity homestead, as it were, in one of the carols. I instead to be in the reading room, which can be a little bit noisy as dougs bringing in various people to come and see things. But its got these six beautiful wooden inspired busts of washington adams, jefferson, franklin, hamilton, madison. And it was as though they, along with doug, were saying, write faster, get to it. It was a a phenomenal experience just to be here, to be on the grounds to live here at mount vernon for a month and to work in the resource cities and to work on something that was a labor of love i have nothing but great memories of having been there. We need to treat our historians with the same love and reverence we give to our celebrities in this nation. The ridiculous amount of attention the kardashians of the world. Ricks going to put out of fashion line soon, im sure. But now you say your experience here was one of your favorite times ever. But i know for a fact that you as a reserve officer had an opportunity to do some work. And i was looking at a beautiful map of its map of new york from the 1770s, from the American Revolutionary war. Thats a copy. And you you told me about an Expert Research experience you had at governors. Tell me and tell us of that share. Share that anecdote of your research life. Oh, it was was great. Who here has been a graduate student . Yes, many. So how many of you were actually. Yeah, exactly. So as a grad student at marquette university, i was doing research for dissertation that that eventually. My first book for liberty in the republic, i was still army reserve officer. I called up the the folks at island which is off the southern tip of manhattan. Its been a fortified position since about 1765. Thats right. When i called up, they asked, well, whats your rank . So im a captain. So, you know, fairly low in the in the officer ranks army officer ranks. But this was a coast guard station. They translated captain to the equivalent of an army colonel. So i got a colonels suite of rooms and the bachelor officers quarters. And then when i asked, well, where on my credit card, they said, oh, were in the process of shutting the base down, so we dont want to handle any cash. So three weeks, i got to stay on Governors Island with these gorgeous views of manhattan and it was fantastic. So i was able to research and do all my stuff and as a grad student, save some money. And so you think the American People for that. Thats fantastic. Thank you all wonderful anecdote. I love to hear it. All right. So lets get into it. Feeding washington is army. Why did you feel like this book needed to be written . It the book was for historian it was a dream. Its something important that happened that nobody had really touched upon. And if i can go back to some of the genesis, it started out as a teaching moment. So when left civilian academia 16 and a half odd ago and returned to the army as a civilian, i joined the staff ride team. And so what i was doing was, yeah, so is a staff right now. So lets pretend like im a child speaks in me as if im a child. What is a staff, right . Have you eat your vegetables . You dessert so day as a staff right is is a focus of a battle or a campaign that takes place on the actual ground over which the actions took place. And so what we do is use this is something that the American Army developed is has done the world over. I mean is this every every its done by every branch the us army stole the idea from germans about 19 six, introduced it and it it flurry ish to died off depending on on wars but its continued though and so most most sort of an officer Training Exercise its actually its actually part of soldier all ranks all right enlisted enlisted men and women noncommissioned officers officers. But also ive led them folks from usaid, the u. S. So an element of the state department done it for others as well. Yeah, theyve developed certainly into like a general leadership training. You get business doing staff rides and that sort of thing. But but yeah, its a unique kind of way. They are. They arent so the battlefield, the Campaign Area becomes your classroom so youre walking yorktown youre walking frederick road youre walking the area of the philadelphia. It becomes your classroom but it also becomes a primary document for you and your students to interrogate. And so you go to the different locations or stands as the terminology is. And you talk about what the actors at that time knew, at that time, and discuss what were their options. Because history, we know, is contingent. Nothings inevitable until it finally is. And you have no other options washington discovered during the valley forge encampment. And to try and understand the decision making, the leadership and a host of other things. Theyre also great for Team Building exercises. You get people away from the flagpole, people let their hair down, not we have much, at least in my case. And they are able to really build some good bonds. Yeah. And so this came out of my building of a Philadelphia Campaign staff ride and we get to valley forge. Yeah. So thats the question. Like what and valid. You know, you just that valuable valley forge is largely its static or so we think how to answer yes. So theres a general myth or understanding of that. There is. There is. And like all myths, their kernels of truth, of course. How do i interject movement this . Then i recalled some work that id read by wayne bottle of the valley forge standing at Anthony Wayne statue by the pennsylvania encampment. How many people have been to valley forge . Its a just described where valley forge is relative to the valley forge about 618 miles north of philadelphia. Its on the schuylkill, its within easy striking distance of philadelphia. Youre George Washington, but its far enough away to be inconvenient if youre a general. Sir william, how holding the garrison at philadelphia. Its a compromise as well. Its also an armed encampment and its something that i introduce or and understand. It is that was the a precursor, sir, to something that weve all encountered in the news. The Forward Operating base is something that weve seen in iraq and afghanistan. Yeah, that was in the book that you it as a Forward Operating base more you know some sort of permanent i mean although it you know its what Something Like the fourth largest city in north america when washington marches in with it with the main army. How large was this that he took in there . Oh, gosh, its about 12,000. Why did he go there . Its because of compromise. And like all compromises, nobodys. And so its military needs. It keeps the british on notice. The Continental Armys not about to surrender. This valuable state of pennsylvania right to challenge for it. Its also political and political and military are always together. They say, good. So all right, lets hold that and go back again to there you are leading a staff pride about the the the campaign youre trying to figure out how to make it dynamic. You get to this place called forge with i mean i think if you ask you know an informed american citizen valley forge they think about well where the army starved and somehow got through the winter. Yeah, its a static story. It is. Theyre there. They survive. Its the winner. Sure. And whats the point of the staff right there we go. There, this is a culminating point, if you will, for this day event. Well, how do we how do we interject some movement and it came through the armys need to sustain itself. We know that the army. Was suffering through the winter, although it wasnt worst winter. Morristown was far worse. You say that previous year, afterwards. But this is still a miserable place to be. The people are living in the of the little ice age. And so that means severe climactic change, Severe Weather change. Youve freeze fall rain cycles you dont know what the weathers going to hold some some mornings are wonderful other mornings are miserable and you dont whether mother natures going to bring you so yeah the the winter not very pleasant how do we feed the army and this is something that had been haunting the army from day one when the continental the Continental Congress adopted the new england militiamen besieging boston on the 14th of june 1775, which, by the way, is the armys birthday. How do we sustain it . How do we feed it . How do we make sure that these soldiers can do what need to do . Because of the way that congress had constructed a system out of their fear of power, power vested the military. They built a system that actually hampered the running of it. And were other factors as well. So there was a lacuna there was the gap. How do i do this . After doing the research i recognize, well theres an article in this knocked an article on the big picture focusing mostly on nathaniel green, who commanded the initial column, and then Anthony Wayne, who commands the column, goes over in the new jersey. There was still enough material. You know what . Theres a theres room for another article. Then came one on henry lee and his part in the forging expedition, the grand forge of 1778. You how it goes. If youve got two chapters, youve got the beginnings of, a book. Yeah. So heres the book meaning Washingtons Army. Well, fantastic. So, all right, lets start from the basics then you have an 18th century army in north america. What do they eat. According to congresss regulations, right. Roughly a pound of meat, roughly a pound of bread, oh, an ounce of butter six ounce of peas or beans a pint of milk, a quart of beer daily and a few a, few other odds and ends. So theres a date time ration that is regulated by the Continental Congress. What the Continental Army should be eating for what every soldier should receive officers. However, because their rank, their station, because they often are expected to host junior officers. This is particularly so with the colonels and the generals. Thats part of the 18th century way of building the bonds. You and your subordinates, they get extra, but they also have servants are expected. Maintain them, but thats whats on paper. The reality markedly different. Right . So thats whats on paper. Thats what theyre theyre getting daily. How is this delivered in, you know, in a Perfect World on whats the plan, how does this stuff whos in charge of giving them in a Perfect World like the commissary general oversee the purchases and also the distribution of for the armies the commissary generals civilian or military figure is actually originally he is a military officer then a civilian and. So in their various appointees the office and that office gets split up the commissary general for purchase his and then the commissary general for many of these men have militia rank so theyre addressed out of courtesy by their ranks right which can sometimes confuse things. What about quartermaster . So dont they exist . What do they do . The quartermaster. Quartermaster in european functions, something akin to a modern day chief of staff. So he would oversee the functioning of the secretary but he would also go out or designate officers, go right ahead of the army, lay out the encampment, hence the quarters designate which brigades or regiments occupy, which quarters. And so theyre doing that. But theyre also in charge of the physical supply of the army. So things like the transportation oversee food. Thats usually not food, but clothing, uniform weapons. And there are subordinate quartermaster beneath the quartermaster general. Okay. So there is an apparatus theoretically in place washing, pattons army. What are they doing . 1777 before theyre going to have to enter quarters . Sure. Well, so where where are they . Whats been on . Sure. Lets lets lets back it up to back it up. Lets back it up to it. 1770. Whats going on 1776. Yes, i will never say. Yeah. Americas declaration of independence yes. Washington crossing the delaware wants them. Well, first, though, hes got it. Hes got to be chased across the jerseys got going all the way back to this year. It is it is. I mean the Continental Army. I know im not going back to when the earth cooled. So i believe the army has diminished. Theyve been chased out of new york. And so we get weve had to cross attempt the ten days first first and second trenton we get crossing the delaware woops the germans at trenton cause the biggest cross drawn them again goes around them and run around the tanks princeton then. Yeah then we get general howe talks to talking to his brother the british admiral. Yes, his plan. His Campaign Plan is to take the American Capital by threatening philadelphia. He hopes to bring washington to battle and win a decisive clash destroy the Continental Army, destroy the american push for independence. Its a good plan. I like it. It sounds good. Its uncoordinated, though, lord george germain, the colonial secretary in london. The distances preclude anything like, the sort of control thats needed. So we get John Burgoyne, who back on the 17 4th of october, 1777 at saratoga. Go upstate new york. Back it up to the august british army lands at head of el today, elkton, maryland, just south of it, soldiers need to recover washington meets them at first with the light infantry at the only battle that i know of in delaware at kochs bridge they fall back washington will then meet them on the 11th of september at brandywine and washingtons defeated as his washington is defending philadelphia. Hes defending philadelphia. I was marching to philadelphia. He has had some he had some there. He loses at brandywine. He does. But the amazing despite the loss there, these flashes of brilliance, nathaniel executes what we would call a giant lshaped ambush. So basically letter l and as british troops coming over the hill, he opens fire them with a full division. Two brigades of virginians, which draws forces the british backed the armies able to retire in pretty good order the soldiers are actually pretty proud of their performance. The problems are in the higher ranks of the officers theyre still learning their business they fall back. We get the battle of payola. Anthony wayne embarrassed there by charles gray no flint gray as he gets called later on. The battle of the clouds on todays Immaculata College reign out, the soldiers from sides staring at each other because theyve got powder. Do you want to charge downhill mud now . Do you want to charge uphill in . But now they stare at each other. They march no battle. Yeah. As four foot 10th. Excuse me, october of 1777. Washington ever aggressive. Ive got a chance going to attack how try and drive him out of philadelphia. The battle of germantown again problems with the senior commanders, but also washingtons penchant some complex plans. Still the army at the lower ranks from really the colonel on down acquit themselves. Well some of the generals do really well the army has learned how to fight it needs your bias of being at the general staff of command college. No no no the national war college. No no actually i dont know if i can say this on cspan. When i commented to my seminar about the and ghost seminar about the army in the war of 1812. It itself in turds it was such a poorly run all right okay so so so theres really leadership at the top and then there are but to murder anyone but they dont stop now from getting feel that they dont how holds philadelphia washington though in december the army still wants it he does and he sets up for another battle at whitemarsh fortifies this chain of hills and invites how come out how marches out looks them and how has flashbacks to bunker hill right i cant waste my soldiers lives. He realizes some skirmishing off on house left the american right and the british army retires to fill adelphia. Its there that washington starts to talk to his generals. What do we do next . And again, washingtons aggressiveness hes seriously considering waging a winter campaign, but why not look what he done the year before. Trenton one more people princeton but theyre also more experience this is an army thats been blooded its got veterans within it. Washington still. But hes much better than he was before. His generals is through a series of counsels of debated and theyre talking things like even the value of currency. If we succeed then what if we fail . Then what . So really good probing questions and answers. Washington rides out to recognize order of the british defenses, but you strong. Yeah, they know what theyre doing. Washington decides after talking again to generals writing to the president , the second Continental Congress, Henry Laurens as well as the governors of pennsylvania and new jersey. Finally, he decides its going to be valley forge. Its not the best place or ideal place, really, for feeding the army. But in terms of answers to military, political needs, showing that the Continental Congress exists, buttressing the waning of pennsylvanias government, defending what he can of southeastern pennsylvania, defending what he can, new jersey, defending he can of delaware and maryland. This is the place that is the answer. Yeah. One of the things i think you make really clear here is whatever we think of the tactic no weaknesses or challenge is there, that the strategic choice of valley forge, for the reasons you laid out, are critical . Absolutely. The british have essentially captured the capital. They have this supposed oddly new independent nation. They have Washingtons Army doesnt need to be 17 miles away or do they . I think they i think they did in washington recognize that washington, for all his faults, has attacked. And william howard, his superior when it came to that as a strategist. Washington was developing into a first rate strategist. Did have some did he have blinders on or fixations . Certainly. But he but he understood the nature of the war and what needed to be accomplished. He got the big picture better than perhaps any other general officer in that. I mean, one of the things that becomes clear is that when you think about the environs around philadelphia and how youre going to ultimately get into this, how you provision army. Theres theres a lot of people who arent really fans of the cause in that region. There are actually a lot of people who arent fans of, anybodys cause and both armies refer to them as the disaffected. These are people who just want to be left alone and who can blame them. Do want an army marching near . You think. Think of an army in the 18th century. Think of an army today. Its a tremendous of destruction. Well, lets think about the 18th century. In the 18th century, youre a farmer. Youve just put up new fences. Guess theyre gone. Theyre going into firewood in your orchards, the pick clean, your livestock. Theyre now filling the bellies of hungry soldiers. These engines of destruction, even if theyre your side, you really dont want them near you. But the army, though, because of people who dont support the cause, people who are to it, people who just want to be left alone by both armies and, other factors. The Continental Army at valley forge was starving and amidst a land of plenty. So here we are at 1778. Youve got a british in philadelphia. Youve Washingtons Army and valley forge. How how big are these armies . How many men has got roughly 20, 30,000 soldiers . How is 20 to 30000 people . Yes and whats the population of philadelphia . Oh, gosh. Before how you know that number. Like 15 to 17000. Its not hes doubled the size of this city. He has although a number of people have left the city. Yes. Yeah. So then washington, the army is roughly what. Oh he marches in with between 10 to 12000. Hes got about 10,000 there though. Okay. So how much bigger how much food does it take to feed an army of thousand men . Literally tons. The estimate is that it took Something Like a third of a ton of food to feed a single soldier over the course of a year. Yeah, so thats quite a bit. So where is he now . Getting his food . How is getting most his food shipped over from and ireland . Hed hoped originally and indeed most british ministers and Senior Officers had believed theyd be able to subsist. The army off the countryside. They didnt really recognize. The nature of the revolution. They didnt recognize loyalties and much more so. They too suffered, if you will. So theyre getting most of their prepared provisions salt, beef salt, pork. Hard, hard baked biscuit, most that coming from depots in england, in ireland. But theyre also going out. And in fact, for after whitemarsh the standoff in of 1777 hells army spends most of its time foraging so both armies competing for foodstuffs food but even firewood forage for animals those become the contested grounds you will the contested stuff of war if i can get it before my enemy does all the better for me and it hurts him. Yeah so the book plays out as this drama in which these two armies are sort of competing, this ever shrinking availability of food in this region. And so this marching into valley forge and what, february of 1778 . Well, its december, december 20th of 1770, 70 marches in. Okay, theyre marching in. How are their provisions as theyre marching and will they i mean, what do they know about how long it will last them. What do they have theres one theres one incident where barrels were opened up when the soldiers arrived in camp and. A couple of accounts that ive got in the book, some inspectors, some captains from the massachusetts line looked at the food for their soldiers, declared unfit to eat the beef, spoiled in a lot of cases, contractors who were hauling these barrels of beef and each wagon could hold a four horse wagon pull about a ton of goods. So maybe eight barrels. Many of the contract buyers would actually siphon liquid off the brine that kept the food preserved to lighten the loads, make their jobs. Sometimes the contractors would simply dump the barrels over the side. No ability to control their behavior because. These are civilians. Theyre not subject to military discipline. And so the soldiers suffer, so they dont have enough food to last the winter. Everybody knows this. Now what are the consequences . They run out of food. What happens . Wash, as washington puts it, you know this this is the fatal crisis. If my soldiers are not fed and there are accounts albert jones waldo for surging in the connecticut line writes that soldiers would out at officers no food no food no meat no meat no soldier threatening the their officers feed us as you promised or. Youre not going to have an army. Youre talking about mutinies. Youre talking about the army disbanding entirely. Yeah, these these are americans, actually. These are citizens whove signed on for a short term and theyre doing what citizens do. Theyre protesting the fact that the congress and the army have not held up their parts, the enlistment contracts, they havent forgotten that theyre citizens. First, the soldiers stuff is what i do for just a few years. Im going back home. So cant get rid of the citizen, but they are theyre suffering because of this. If the armys not fed washington, we either have to go further west into the country, perhaps to york, perhaps redding, where we can feed the army more easily. However, we surrender control this sends the wrong political message. This allows the british to expand their control or the soldiers may desert and we no longer have an army. So thats the strategic choice there you want to be close to philadelphia. You want to continue to assert fiction that this is a country, a new country, a new nation that is defending its territory and not just abandon all regions to the british. Absolutely. The army was the armed embodiment of the american in revolution. Yeah. Okay. So so the book describes, you know, how they deal with it. So i dont know. I dont know if we want to go into grody to tell effort by effort. But. Its not a passive effort. Theyre not sitting there waiting congress to send food or food. What are they what do they have to do ultimately . Congress as you know, votes washington near dictatorial powers. But washington ever cognizant of peoples rights. The need to gain the peoples acquiescence because is a peoples war does not want to violate property rights. Yeah so yeah so theyre not just going to go out and start stealing food from everybody can fine but to give a couple of examples when nathaniel green who no offense to hamilton fans really was washingtons right hand man. When he leads out main column from from the encampment, hes doing what washington ordered at first, giving receipts to people whos whose goods impressed go to camps you will pay you back in and donated dollars. We recognize that theyre not worth much but its a Little Something green though early on some of his men capture couple of farmers trying to bring goods in the british. Its february. The weathers cold, green have none of this orders that these men be stripped of the waists. The risk secured each one gets 100 lashes. He wants to send a message, thou shalt not supply the british. So as it moves on the next few days, people are starting to hide their goods. Green although a quaker understands the hard hand of war, he says, no more. Instead said he starts to, have his men take some farmers hostage. But his will also then go out. Ferret goods out. And if have to do this, he writes. Washington nobodys getting anything i hear their cries and like pharaoh, i harden my heart so green bringing the hard hand of war to pennsylvanias disaffected. In another case we see its so greens a critical figure. And of course of his people. Anthony wayne shaw is also part this grand forge. He is he is when he decides early on initially a colonel stewart was supposed to go across the delaware instead green realizes is too important need to send wayne wayne contrary to his nickname matt anthony is anything but waynes aggressive. Hes thoughtful. Hes a good battlefield commander. Despite payola, wayne leads very small brigade. Boy, am i pumping that up by calling it brigade. Its only about 300 guys. They cross the delaware with the help of john berry commands what remains of the continental and says to berry and i think that every man a 14 year old boy in his heart give us a box of matches and tell us set fire to something. Were on it. Yeah, very like burns. All that. Exactly. And thats of it. The new jersey shore rice garnet and distract the war and all the fodder on the jersey shore burn all exactly and berry does great work with that wayne works his way through and he works really well with new jersey militia colonel ellis and wayne develops great networks. In fact. Yeah, if i could about this book is the cast of characters is is really not the ones we usually think about. No and its and while the book i use im talking about logistics now its about the maturation of washington general but also the development of a command team the and trust that goes up down but also a lot of trust. How important is trust in leadership situations in the American Army trust is key. It was key then. Its key now. Subordinates have got to trust their superiors. Superiors have got to trust their subordinates. The boss cannot at every place, at every time. Washington that thats why he select screen to do this and green understands as we would today his left and right limits you know go forth do what you need to do green keep some informed of all those movements. Washington has no problems that Anthony Wayne does the same once hes across the river. Writes back to washington, keeping him posted of whats going. Yeah, and you and you also he does it with light horse harry. Oh, yeah. Look, captain lee. Lee is. Lee is in my estimation, was in my estimate. That is in estimation probably the light cavalry officer of the war now there are others who are really fine william washington, george carlin, james cosmo in the south. Im sure youve got youve also got John Graves Simcoe who im sorry fans of kennedy british he is hes not homicidal maniac but hes. Come on. What do you mean . What are we doing . Im trying to give the other side. What other side . Do attention. But he. He, he is so much an officer. Yeah, he does is he is young when hes hes, hes only about 25. Yeah. But you know, washingtons known him and his for years. Theyve got that close connection so in washington in in one case salutes and orders to the army has my dear for washington to be that familiar with a mere captain speaks volumes about the nature of their relationship. Well one of the things that struck me is so surprising about lee as a captain. Hes dealing with, you know generals in the militia and and his orders to to make them do what he wants them to. But he does it in such a way that they dont resent him. And hes able somehow also to the population and the civilian dont resent me very much somehow has that washington magic. Hes lee although hes something of a yeah is he was polished at his education at princeton his upbringing in tidewater virginia he understood how to work with elites he also had of course, writing to them, letting letting folks like general smallwood, he commands the the Maryland Division in wilmington. Lee is coming down. Hes doing the following for the army. Please give him all your assistance. And they understand that this. This this struggle is not about me as smallwood or whomever. Its about them. Its about other people. Therefore its incumbent upon me to give captain lee as much assistance as i possibly can and. They do . Yeah. Extraordinary way you bring out these stories that are pretty much unknown today. The. Theres also places that take on a renewed significance. The head of elk o head head head anybody familiar with where were talking about when i say the head of elk or elkton, maryland, it paints a picture. Sure. Youve got your its its basically. Sum of the headwaters, if you will, of the chesapeake bay. Its sits on a timmins, a spit of land in maryland. It had been a shipbuilding center, but also a transport center. The hollings were sort of like in between theres philadelphia and theres both. Moor and theres that l about. Its of in the middle, right near wilmington. But you know where that big delmarva comes down . It kind of its again right in the middle of that. It is. And its on top of the bay roads, rivers. So youve got transportation and youve also got only about 40 miles from from. Right. Its so its as the crow its a its a short transit of for a fully loaded wagon about four days. And you can sail a naval ship kind of right into the you can get shallow draft ships up to that up to that area. Yes, absolutely. And its a critical sort of supply point for all this foodstuff. Its one of the key magazine arms supply depots in easier terminology throughout the war. Why dont the british just seize it they did but why dont they stay there they dont have enough soldiers how can only disperse so much combat power across the region. Why why cant he put hundred people there the hessians or somebody think about what had happened a couple of years before think about what had happened to trenton and that was an entire brigade, some 1500. So because that theres this sense that the need to keep their armies concentrate and concentrate. Absolutely so theyre not trying to occupy the countryside. They realize that, in fact, when howard was sending out his expeditions while hes at philadelphia its generally in strength. So at least to three battalions. So several hundred a couple of thousand souls, like 500 men at chop would sometimes theyre sending out upwards of half the army. Why . Because youve got soldiers who are actually doing the cutting, who are actually going out gathering visiting farms. But they have a covering force. Theyre functioning as an occupying force, but theyre not as a governing force. They dont play that role. They the exercise of british power does not extend beyond the neck of the philadelphia peninsula. Yeah. I mean you do a very job. I mean, youre drawing on work good john sky and others about the role of the us continental and with the associated militias on on sort of the maintenance of political power which is one of the great weaknesses of the british situation. It was and its kind of counterintuitive. But at one end, one of the things the british had suffered from, one of the many things excuse me, was the poor knowledge of the population. Theyd been getting reports. 1774, even earlier on about large numbers of loyalists. All you need to do is show the kings standard. The people will rise in defense of his majesty. They they get there and where are the people . Im looking. I dont think i see you. And so in its because the loyalist populations were dispersed in part because the rebel militia served as a police force to maintain loyal party or at least submission to the american governments a variety of things they could never the loyalists much beyond the duration of the occupation of an area by british regulars. Its really astonishing because it goes from being a british colony to all of a sudden the british army is a foreign army and its own place. Absolutely and and there you see you officers and and others about the british mohammedan and you know, theres this unnatural war. Well, look, its an incredible book, an examination how that army washing army survives and significance lets go ahead and open up to some questions from the audience. We can maybe out a few more of our incredible lessons have to learn here. But what is you know as you is moving the microphone around and well well want you to wait because we have our good friends at cspan. Wait the mic. But as that might as im seeing some hands hopefully pop up here. What was your take away about our George Washing tune . I mean, what did he show to you as you study this this grand, this effort to keep the army alive at valley forge . What is the lesson would tell people on that staff ride that you came to understand theyre there any number of things but i think for me the key takeaway was washingtons ability to build a great command team through trust. He was able to earn you because youve got all the stars doesnt mean that people are going to trust you or respect you. Washington understood that he had to earn their trust and their respect, and it was paid back and it was paid back in bushel. Falls all right. Well lets get some questions here. Ive got to somebody in the back here. Yes, yes, maam. I just had a feeling of his command so i wanted to know what were interested in lessons and we are currently working something for the first forwarding base in the pacific in world war two. So i wanted to know to what degree Something Like this in the 18th century is useful as a tool, even for today for current logistics issues across the services, trade. Sure. And i will confess that ive known dr. Haley since was a graduate student, and its always a delight to see someone like me, like this doing so well. But you know, the for the for the campaigns those were about basing the only reason that the army the marine corps existed in war two in the pacific was to land sea islands that could then be turned airfields, port facilities, logistical hubs for the american advance on japan. They were there secure ports, airfields or supply posts. So the navy could continue its advance so that aircraft could continue. It could continue their advance upon japan hence the significance of basing head of elk. Yeah so the head of elk story that hes talking about i mean they create that magazine but also i think valley forge yourself you think of as a Forward Operating it was its not like some they just hang up it really is sending out missions to secure particular effects. Oh absolutely i mean valley forge was the home an active field army doing the things that soldiers then and soldiers today would recognize. Ise washington had outposts just six miles or so away. He had cavalry screens six or so miles away, all with the intention of giving him warning, ferreting out information about his enemy, but also launching patrol cells against his enemy. This is the home of an active army doing this stuff that soldiers recognized then and would recognize over two centuries later, he right here. So it was a Continental Army . Yes, sir. Each of the confirms new states had regiments within this army and they had responsibilities under the way the country was governed to provide pay and, uniforms and supplies. How far afield did washingtons quartermaster actually have to go to get stuff . Did they stuff from georgia, the carolinas, and bring it up . How good could the theres i recall reading a long time ago perhaps the best supplied troops were those from connecticut. The worst supplied from north carolina. The states were responsible. And one of the things that you see in washingtons letters is he would at times take a senior officer from some state line. So the Lieutenant Colonel of the seventh maryland, whose name is escaping now, please forgive me. So he washington writes to the governor writes this Lieutenant Colonel, i need you to go down to maryland, talk to your governor, and get supplies. You need to help me clothe your maryland. But washington also has authority from pennsylvania, to improve blankets, shoes, leather, wool linen, whatever he needs to supply the army at the same time because we want to make things more complex because we have to make things more complex. Hes also competing with agents from the from the commonwealth of pennsylvania and purchasing agents from the commissariat of the Continental Army and the Quartermaster Office of the Continental Army. And then each state has its own purchasing agents and they are trying to all of these things, no centralized, efficient. Its a real challenge. One of the thing i think, rick, also points out is theres a complete breakdown in the new england purchasing that happens for reasons that have nothing to do with whats actually going on. Its to do with politics. And so the army is particularly unprepared and countrys unprepared to supply them at the time theyre marching into forge. Absolutely. So, yeah, should be a lot of cattle coming from new england for this army, which where theres plenty of cattle that all breaks down because. The person in charge of it resign. And then there was all sorts of and corruption and so youre dealing with all challenges in the in the face of a war and also the fact that that purchasing agents were required to give Something Like 5,000 bond and there, thats a problem, right . Theres no money. Nobody the moneys not worth anything. And if youre a purchasing agent. Its all in your own credit. And you can end up in jail if you cant pay everybody for all stuff. Sure. And youre hoping that congress will pay you exactly what you put out. Yeah, its freedom. That freedom aint free. All right. We had a question. The back, its actually kind an exhibit. And then i see one over here and then one here. Steven go ahead. Sorry. Kind of extension of the quartermaster. And then where were going with purchasing agents. Im actually in contracting for the air force currently and just i was not picking on you, by the way. So great to hear be part of it. And heres what do we do we see the the early beginnings of seeing weaknesses in, the way we equip and feed our troops, you know, kind of the antecedent of what our interesting to put it mildly, acquisition system is today and anything related contracting of you know, we dont pay above these prices or know the the rules of doing business on behalf of general washington right there congress had set forth prices you know here are the maximum amounts washington would also also held at least a couple times, for lack of a better term, a market at valley forge urging farmers. Come in, bring your goods here. The prices were offering and so yeah you know they will offer only so much they can only afford so much one of the problems with continental script so worthless is that the congress had no taxing power and so all this money going out and nobody taxing it, none of the states willing to tax to, bring the money in and make it dearer it actually have some value perhaps and so the inflationary pressures just to the moon well when youre competing with another army which has species playing in gold got gold. Silver. Yeah. So youre in the same region competing with this other army to purchase this. And if youre if youre a farmer, youve got to look out for your family. Okay so i kind of like what the americans are saying, but redcoats have actually got cold hard cash and theres a lot of quakers you cant trust no offense without the friends. Theres a question over here, here is about two things. First, can you paint a picture of what it looked like when they all came back to camp, you know, with, you know, was it like a cattle herd, you know, and wagons full of grain and, things that they found and then is there any evidence that part of the sort of dysfunctionality that you mentioned was part of the cabal part of the the effort to take down washington and to make him look bad . Yeah, the some of the supplies flowed in it really in dribs and drabs. Its a technical term. The but you would you would get grain for example hey weve got x number of cattle. I have not been able to come across grains records. In fact, the only records ive been able to come across list who visited what am impressed what were light horse hairy leaves which are held at the Gloucester County Historical Society in new jersey in the hollingsworth papers oh no, not hollingsworth. Forgive i had a i lost that one but so theyre coming in at different rates and so theres no real knowledge as to when wagons going to come in as to when cattle or sheep or swine will be driven in. It just depends as far as the the cabal, nothing really there, although washington was certainly doing his best to one support his opponents to secure his own position, and three, enable the army to continue its fight. Well, a great. Right, right. Heres another thanks from downright so beans go hand in hand with bullets. So just out of curious and if you can comment, did you find anything that talks about like the risk calculus or ammunition while youre conducting an active when foods already a problem and youre conducting an active did you come across anything talking about how they did like we engagement procedure how they manage their ammunition stockpiles or include of that in their foraging you know and the Lieutenant Colonel who the as far as are we that means rules of engagement theres nothing that i came across regarding that and it may be it was because i was so focused on the army feeding itself and going through that that i may have looked they may have looked past that. Thats said, i know that there was enough ammunition, certainly at least with nathaniel greens foraging column, to engage in a firefight with on speakers who held a readout that today beneath the 30th Street Train Station in philadelphia. You know, got the sense that there were instructions basically here not to not to notify. Yeah. Dont bring on a fight to keep army alive. I mean, dont dont take unnecessary risks. And also, how do you engage with civilians. Right. I mean, this youre really theyre really trying washingtons instructions are really trying to treat everybody very civilly. Obviously, theres going to be a lot of challenges there, particularly with the disinfected. Oh, absolutely. But its very different from the british, which just seem theyre just to take what they want. The brit, the british would would seize it. And then you see accounts of so washington working under this conceit and hes asking his officers to work out of the conceit that we are the governing power of the country and these are citizens, he says. The british are sort of like were just going to supply the army and the british conceit. Washington however, understands this was a struggle for peoples affections and loyalty. The hearts and minds absolutely at the top. Lets get to like us. Lets have people, us actively at the the worst. They actively oppose us. They dislike us. No, ill take the middle ground. They dont hate us. They dont love they just leave us alone. So trying not to people is the the the lowest thing that his his soldiers can do about brutality deserters that are captured deserters are another matter. You know thats they these are men who have signed for a contract you violated. Youre now subject to army discipline. He welcome to the lash we have a question and then theres one in front. We please. Civil war historian. Ken brown writes terrific accounts recently. One was titled leaves from gettysburg and at gettysburg and in those accounts he discuss is the nutritional needs and needs of 60,000 horses and 40,000 mules. And apparently at that time during the war, that war, the government had specific required ments for these nutritional needs of the horses. They required roughly £14 of oats a day and £14 of grains a day, and, you know, to keep these horses in some form a condition to perform pulling wagons and caissons and so forth. Did Washington Implement anything for for for the animals for horses and so forth. Yeah. Were there were actually several books published on, for example, management of the light cavalry, one that comes to mind is by an author named hind h i indy. But there were also various books on animal husbandry. Heres what you should feed cattle or sheep. Swine at this time of year. His feed them when youre getting them fattened for slaughter. Heres what horses need to eat and so theyve got all they do have this knowledge plus keep in mind this is this is an Agricultural Society and so understanding animals needs i dont want to second hand but was something that rather familiar for most. One of the things though that washington officers arent a bunch of knickerbockers theyre farmers. I mean, they know they know a horse and they do. They do. But orders that that superfluous horses be sent away from camp. So its its basically Senior Officers who have horses. They need to be mounted. Theyre enough horses for some of the not enough certainly for the very few wagons exist the cavalry is was dispersed so that could feed off of parts new jersey parts of pennsylvania and so that lessened the burden on the main army supplying the livestock. Reading the book, i mean, you realize how distant we are from the world and the the basic knowledge that these people had of how to manage animals how to feed animals how to move animals, how to feed for animals or which animals you dont want to which ones you do want to bring. I mean, its really a very humbling reading this and youre like, oh yeah, i mean, theyre sending hundreds in, hundreds and hundreds of head of cattle into the camp and its like a to feed him for a day, you know. Sure. And what what what are we doing . I mean, where are these animals coming from . And and theyre all over the place. And if and if this is livestock thats meant to feed the army, you dont want it to move too fast too far because. What is it . Do they lose weight . Its going at no good to the soldiers who are going to eat them. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Great question. Here. Yes, sir. Bottom line. Bottom line question is to what degree did the need for foraging impair the fighting ability of army . The need to sustain Washingtons Army . But also, how is army drove . The nature of the combat actions that took place during the occupation of philadelphia. How spent how soldiers spent most of their time. British rule of thumb was to have six months of supply on hand at all times. Theyre only a couple of times during the eight years of this war that that ever took place. Both armies spent much of their time during this winter, searching for food to feed themselves. That, however, was an act of war against the by seizing food and forage and denying it to my enemy. I therefore wage war against him in a different fashion. I dont have to line up and exchange volleys with my 69 caliber charleville or my 75 caliber brown bears. Instead, i can deny him the stuff to fill soldiers bellies if. I was a canadian and im reading this book. Im like, why dont you just attack Washington Valley forge theres nobody theres no fighting generals there anymore. Half the people are out foraging in the countryside. Go attack them. Absolutely. And its a great several reasons. One, how has got most of the british army in america, most of britains regulars were in america. Hes got to keep them there, got to keep them alive. Valley forge was an armed camp, fortifications guarding all the major road approaches into camp redoubts. In other words, forts scattered throughout the encampment. Mountjoy which runs north to south against Parade Ground and trench fronts built on it. What washington has got, thanks to french engineers in particular the general dupont. I forgive my pronunciation and terrible was a defense in depth there are no trees to obscure the fields of fire all of their fields of fire in other words shooting at the enemy are interlock and creating kill zones very modern sounding it goes way back washingtons got all this how recognizes i cant risk my soldiers lives a fruitless mission. I remember bunker hill im not about to do it again yeah the loss of one british soldier is a big, big deal. It is easy to be found again. Question over here was being used a medical measures back. They were in valley forge. Im sorry you have to speak. It was food used as medical back in valley forge. I mean, was there since there was a lack of food, you know was there a higher mortality rates within the oh yeah. I dont i dont know the mortality rate because of lack of food know we we do have of course the the the mustard rolls and the count of soldiers who were there. I can tell you, though, something about some of the food that was brought out at one point, soldiers in smallwoods command and delaware slaughtering fresh cattle. The cattle were thrown. The carcasses were thrown into the Delaware River because apparently the cattle were dying on the horse. It seems that they suffered from rinderpest and they were essentially almost tempted to call them zombies these cattle were had heartbeats. They were dying and there was nothing healthy about them. So the those were that soldiers did not have any other questions thoughts concerns. Well i think this has been an extraordinary. Oh, i see. One more. Lets have one more question here and then well wrap up. Is on the other side of the show here. Okay. This is going to be a good one. Just at the beginning, you talked a lot about how valley forge was not an ideal location, that that was a compromise in what would have been the ideal location would have been if political needs. And what you were put aside or what have you, were you more than the preference for being in camps . You cant put aside political needs and it all war is. If war is a political instrument by the state so cant even think about that theres no such thing as pure military devoid of politics politics. It depends on what you want and what washington wanted. If it was simply sustain the army falling closer to redding or york, further away from the british would have made his life much easier, but there would have been the problem with surrendering that area british control and sending the wrong message to the American People. Sending the wrong message to the british people and to the army. Its the best bad of all the choices available and i think it was the right so why do you think, rick, that valley still plays such a role in americans memory . Yeah, the American Revolution itself, even though winters in morristown were in some ways harsher, more challenging. What is it about valley forge . You think thats captured the imagination. One . Of course, washingtons there. It happens during what seems to be the climactic year of the war. 1777. Here youve a british army advancing southward canada under John Burgoyne howes army advancing and then north against philadelphia the American Capital is captured. Washington is defeated at nearly turn in the campaign. Its it says a lot to americans the winter although not as harsh as we discuss at morristown still a harsh one but its proximity to philadelphia and all of these of events going on really together to make it into the mythic thing that we know. But as with all myths with their kernel of truth and theres so more to be learned than just by ennobling these soldiers, this this greek chorus of suffering well, the supply corps of the army should love this. Its all about it definitely shows how supply wins wars and and its critical and really, rick, you give it an incredible to our understanding of the American Revolutionary war and George Washingtons as a leader. I encourage everybody to get the book. Ill say that i read most of the book. I also listened to quite a bit of it on audio guide. The sad thing about your audio version is its not you narrating it with. This incredible voice you have this great bass baritone, rick voice, so thats something we can ask is future models or might my editor for it but i mean listen to that you know thats what i was looking forward to. And i got some, you know, poindexter and the thing so everybodys got to buy a rick will be here afterward to sign them youll stay here all night till the suns every book and every book every friend and of course all the proceeds go to support the Education Mission here in mt. Vernon. Thank you to cspan for being here tonight. Thank you all for being here. Lets give rick a big round of applause. Rick guerrero, wonderful stuff. Right. Thank