history tv. to see what's coming up today, visit c-span.org slash history. you can also follow along on social media at c-span history on twitter, instagram, and facebook. this my name is tisa wenger, i'm a professor religious history at yale university. it's my privilege to serve as moderator for this panel today. this session asks how national state and local governments how sought to manage religious diversity throughout history. together these panelist tell a story of how actors working within the seemingly secular rams like u.s. and military governance, health care, and taxation, created in an stated religious policy that to find some religions as marginal and others as mainstream, three different case studies, they show how religious communities of some kinds trout lunge this policy and have sometimes worked with a net. they help us see how the politics of religious pluralism intersects with american empire, with global migration, and with free market capitalism, and how local and state actors shaped the meaning of religion in american life. at a time of growing religious diversity, and of growing conflict over what it means to assert religious values and the public sphere today, these histories can offer valuable insights into the controversies are facing. some quick introductions of our panelists. then i will turn it over to them. first, we will hear from carleigh beriont who is a ph.d. candidate in the committee on the study of religion at harvard university where she works on the history of american religions and politics with a focus on the united states empire, missionaries, and military-ism in the pacific. before graduate school, she lived and worked in the republic of the marshall islands, and she's finishing up a dissertation entitled, for the good of mankind, missionaries, militaries, and the making of american empire in the pacific, 1857 to 1966. her paper today is titled selling religious freedom, the u.s. military and bible distribution on the post world occupied pacific. melissa borja it is an assistant professor in american culture and a quarter faculty member in the asian pacific islander american studies program at the university of michigan. melissa works on religion, migration, race, ethnicity, and politics in the united states and the pacific world. her book, following the new way, among refugee resettlement policy and religious changes forthcoming from harvard university press. melissa is also an active public scholar serving a senior adviser to the religion and settlement project at princeton university. and is lead investigator of the -- hate project, which studies anti asian racism and asian american activism during covid-19 pandemic. paper today's religious body politics, religious pluralism and -- in health care settings. and finally, william shultz as a historian of -- and assistant professor at the university of chicago divinity school. we'll work on the intersection of politics and capitalism, and is currently finishing up his first book, jesus in the rockies, how colorado springs became the capital of american evangelicalism, which explains how the confluence of evangelical christianity and free market capitalism transformed the city of colorado springs into an epicenter of american conservatism. his next project is the waves of sin, faith and fraud and religious freedom in modern america. he is speaking today out of that project, its title is -- and male or dominicans that crusade for religious fundraising. with that, i will turn it over to carly. >> hello, everybody, thank you for being with us this afternoon. i want to thank my entertain for coming and being an audience member. i would love to thank will for organizing this panel and the conference organizers for bringing us together. i also want to thank my fellow panelists for their insights and insightful scholarship. it's a real joy to be able to share this space with you on this beautiful day and in this beautiful campus. as tisa wenger said, i'm a doctoral candidate at harvard where i work on the history of religion and u.s. empire in the pacific, my current project focuses on the marshall islands were examined how different groups of americans used religion to justify their involvement in the region during the 19th and 20th centuries, as well as how religious commitments have grounded -- anti nuclear, anti imperial, and climate justice movements in the 20th and 21st centuries. so i am going to discuss the marshall islands as a micro climate of religious freedom and as a micro climate of u.s. empire during world war ii, as well as the contemporary implications of u.s. policy is regarding religion in the archipelago and scholarly use of metaphor is like micro climates. the metaphor of a micro climate comes from julie on thomas's wonderful contribution to this excellent volume that was -- and published last year called the changing terrain of religious freedom. in his essay, thomas describes micro climates as localized patterns dictated by the specific circumstances of terrain, the built environment and, ecology. he writes they're always local and are often artificial, but they're also fundamentally subject to broader weather patterns and slowly shifting climactic forces. as the work of people like thomas and the other members of this panel demonstrates, religion, pluralism, religious freedom, these are all constructed, contingent, and contested categories with tangible and embodied social and legal implications. they have the laboratory and they have been tools of empire. so, how do you different groups of people experience categories or ideals like religious freedom or pluralism, what concrete forms do they take? there is a vast body of scholarship on the co-construction of race and religion on the ways in which religious identity and religious affiliation has been racialized at the local and that national levels, as well as work the case the gender in class politics that underpin so many of these histories. the scholarship shows us how religions identities that people have claimed or been assigned have functioned to include or exclude to mainstream or to marginalize individuals and groups of people throughout u.s. history. considering the world war ii era marshall islands as a micro climate illustrates some of the contradictions and tensions that appear when american policies and ideals like religious freedom aren't acted and reinterpreted by people outside of the united states. it provides a window into how religious freedom does not always translate into your company political freedom. by way of orientation, the marshall islands is located about halfway between hawaii and australia. it's composed of five islands and 29 coral atoms spread across almost 1 million square miles of ocean. there's a limited amount of land, and in most places, the land extends only a few feet above sea level. the marshall islands is an island ocean nation. if you cannot see the water from where you're standing you can hear it, the waves break endlessly and audibly and the coral reef is around battles. today, about 60,000 people live in the marshall islands, the vast majority by some estimates 97% identify as christian. since 1850 712 american missionary families sale to the marshall islands and -- or chief invited them to stay and establish a mission state shun there, these people have grown up practicing christianity. by the outset of the second world war, japanese un-american sources independently estimated that at least nine out of every ten people in the marshall islands protestant. during world war ii, the archipelago was strategically significant for both japan and the united states. since 1919, the marshall islands had formed the eastern perimeter of japan's pacific empire and it effectively cut in half the united states territory in the pacific, separating the united states held philippines from the hawaiian islands in the north american continent. bombardmon february 1st, 1944, . military invaded in the marshall islands. it was the most concentrated bombardment of the pacific war. by the third day, more than 8000 japanese and koreans, 350 americans, and 200 marshals people were dead. and american soldiers reported that the entire island looked as if it had picked up, been picked up 20,000 feet and dropped. the beaches and coral reef were pockmarked by american bombs and littered with twisted metal debris. they recall that there are so many dead people in such a small island that they have to walk on the bodies to get from one place to another. during the bombardment, partially's family sought refuge in holes that they dug in the sand, and as wave after wave of american marines reached the shore, one elderly marshallese help, and she held tight to her bible. she remains hidden as they were calm in the islands, searching for wounded and dead americans, and for the surviving marshallese inhabitants, when the woman finally emerge from amid the smoldering remains of her island, she held up her bible to the americans and she told them that this is our book, we are christians from boston. an american protestant chaplain, who went ashore shortly after described finding a bloodstained hymnal, it had been printed by the american board in 1937. hoping to identify its owner, he showed the book to some of the surviving martially as people on the island. one man reached out and the chaplain reported, lovingly trees to the crudely scrawled name on the cover with his finger, sadly the men said that the owner died during the battle. american chaplains, marines, and journalists shared these stories and stories like these with the american public in private and public letters and news updates. some were published in the missionary herald, others and secular outlets like life, time, and the saturday evening post, together they illustrated how central religion was in a place like the marshall islands. as admiral chester who is in charge of the allied land, air, and sea forces in the pacific during world war ii uncoordinated the invasion of the marshall islands wrote, by taking the marshall islands, were liberating of people who will once again be able to practice the christian virtues brought to them by american missionaries. when fdr declared that everyone should have freedom of warship in his january 1941 state of the union address, surely this is what he meant. members of the marshallese community shared the japanese armed forces have tried to stamp christianity during the war. they told marshals people that jesus was dead and they ordered that all bibles and him books be burned. they threatened to sue anybody caught with either. the chaplain told american readers of the missionary herald or his letter was published, that the martially's men who owned the hymnal had been shot because he would not give it up. when a u.s. naval commission surveyed the marshals people and asked them what they wanted first and most, repeatedly they got the reply, send back the missionaries. u.s. military officials observed that religion played an important part in the life of the islanders. they sought to create policies to support them under the ups disses of religious freedom. the military, for however, was wary of bringing back the missionaries, the majority of whom were single, middle aged, or elderly white women to the war zone. in lieu of missionaries, the military directed their chaplains to perform religious services for the people, including marriage ceremonies and funerals. the military reported they provided meeting places and held services for all sex but shintoism, given the demographic makeup of the islands, what this initially looked like on the grounds was support solely for christianity. the military also distributed, and in some cases sold, hundreds of bibles and hymnals to the martially's people. the military hoped that by selling bibles they could teach the marshallese people to be good christians and capitalists. some of the officials cautioned that unless people paid for the bibles they might become reliant on the united states for charity. a microcosm of a larger debate that was unfolding about how to occupy the marshall islands and transform the quadrant into a military base without turning the marshallese people into words of the american state. after each battle, like the ones on kwajalein, the u.s. military held a flag raising ceremony to mark the end of the fighting and the beginning of the u.s. occupation. as one u.s. official explained, these rituals were performed to communicate to the marshals people that they were now under american protection. in may 1944, time magazine published a report about one of the ceremonies. narrow funding review of go my way, a movie that starred bing crosby as occurred in catholic priest to sweeps and save a new york city parish and along profile on u.s. general, omar bradley, the short report communicated a lot. this is what the article said, the marine platoon presented arms, the bugler played to the colors as the u.s. flag fluttered up the staff. from under the wrestling coconut palms, the solemn group of natives watch the formal institution of u.s. military rule. this was the first segment of the japanese empire to be captured by the u.s., one of the outer of the islands. lieutenant galen wright a proclamation establishing military government. in joining the natives to help the united states, an interpreter shouted his echo. the natives and brilliant costumes -- then old chief asked, may we pray now? the lieutenant, the united states guarantees freedom of worship. the marshall islanders, were pious christians, dominant variety, boston congregationalists broke into tears and struck up a question him in the soft flying native dialect. here on the periphery of the japanese empire in the middle of the vast pacific ocean was a community of pious christians. not only where the people pious christians, but they were boston congregationalists, through these characterizations of the people, pious, protestant, un-american affiliated, american readers learned that the people in the marshall islands had a pre-existing relationship with the united states. like the letter from the chaplain about the bloody hymnal of the imprint of the american board, the time article suggest that the americans had saved the marshallese people twice, by evangelizing in the 19th century and by defeating the japanese military in the 20th century. without explicitly stating it, the article also drew a sharp contrast between the u.s. occupation of the marshall islands and the japanese occupation. although religious freedom had been established by the japanese in 1919, via the international league of nations mandate framework that govern the first decades of the japanese occupation, the time article asserted that this iteration, the u.s. military is way of freeing religion was distinct. and as a result, the article suggested the marshals welcomed the american occupation, they cheered it. during world war ii, the position of religious freedom and military occupation and the way these policies and programs were communicated to marshals into americans eliminated how policies and histories, interpretations, and agendas around religion are simultaneously local and transnational, personal, and political, complicated and often contradictory, what the policies looks like depended and shifted depending on who was implementing them. in this micro climates christiane it is the cultural context, the ideas of religious freedom and pluralism, and what many christians believe in heralded, that's the potential introduction of non protestant religions into the region. it was -- to the american board missionaries, who are clambering to return, it was anathema to many of the protestant chaplain stationed in the marshall islands and it wasn't that much of the many of the marshallese people, they wanted religious freedoms and so far as the produce continuity, so long as they were able to continue their religious practices from before the war. they did not want our seas, as they referred to roman catholics, or fundamentalist on the island. they also did not want u.s. military to tell them what religious freedom should look like on their islands, the united states seeming support for christianity, distributing bibles, holding christian services, telling the people they could pray again, they seem to signify that religious freedom was limited to christiane 80. when the u.s. military attempted to implement policies that marshall is people are american board missionaries saw as restricting christiane 80, they sought to circumvent them. one place where the u.s. military attempted to draw boundary and keep religion out was in the public school system, this policy upset plenty of marshals people, including dwight heinie, was in charge of the public schools, according to heinie, martially's parents want their children to learn about the bible and school, but when he asked for them to teach the bible during school, he was told by u.s. officials that it would not be allowed because it was against the law. so, heinie added in a period for teaching marshall's language, he knew the teachers would have to teach the bible at that time, because the only book they have in the martially language. i share these stories to give you a sense of just how complicated the terrain in the marshall islands was, how the overlapping micro climates of religious freedom an empire created entirely new ecosystems and realities. the legacies of the u.s. military occupation in the marshall islands and subsequent u.s. administration of the marshall islands are many, the impact of nuclear testing, which i did not discuss today's a core part of this legacy. a second related consequences the political status of many marshals people in the united states, since 1986 when congress approved the compact of freedom association of, the marshall islands has been affiliate succeeded state, that's as an independent country with the somewhat unique treaty relationship with the united states that is the united states exclusive military rights to martially violence, waters, and air space. together with plow in the federated states of micronesia, the freely associated states represented an area larger than the continental united states. the marshall islands is home to a u.s. military base and it is an intercontinental ballistic missile test site. the compact which is currently being renegotiated also enables martially's people to travel to the united states where they may work, go to school, and reside indefinitely, albeit with no path to u.s. citizenship, same for those who were born here or who have served in the u.s. military. according to congress, the official political status of the tens of thousands of marshallese people who live in places like evanston, illinois, springdale, arkansas, is non immigrants without visas. they are resident non citizens. today, a challenge facing these communities within the united states is not necessarily a religious one, but a political one. now, there are limits to using climate change, to using climate as a metaphor for religious freedom. as thomas points out, religious freedom is fully -- where's climate has both natural and artificial aspects. focusing on these more intimate spaces and interactions can also make it easier to miss the force for the trees. the metaphor of a micro climates helpful for things like thinking about a climate challenge facing the marshallese people today, climate change. looking ahead, i have to wonder how this new challenge will impact the marshals in the united states and in the ocean nation that is the marshall islands, thank you. [applause] >> good afternoon, thank you for joining us for this conversation today. in the past year and a half, the national debate about religious exemptions for covid-19 vaccine mandates has sparked lively conversations about religious freedom and religious pluralism in this specific realm of health care. these are political issues debated at the highest levels of our government, often in abstract terms, like freedom, and liberty. yet, these are not abstract issues. these political issues take form in the personal dramas of everyday life, at the local and hyper local level, in the complex interactions between patients and health care providers. in hospitals all across america. so, when talking about the politics of religious pluralism, we tend to emphasize politicians, preachers, and regular people, what they believe are profess. but just as important as what people do. when they put ideals of freedom, pluralism, and care into practice. at the center of my talk today are a few very basic questions. have the politics of religious pluralism played out in the specific context of health care? more specifically, how have americans accommodated religious difference in health care settings? as a historian of immigration and religion, i'm particularly interested in understanding how institutions and individuals in health care have adapted to an increasingly religiously diverse population. to explore these questions today, i'm going to focus on the experiences of americans in the 1980s and 1990s, when there were some very highly public conflicts related to meng americans and western medicine. especially in relation to the unexplained nocturnal death syndrome, or sons. drawing on archival sources, legal, and government documents, as well as news media, i show how the sons crisis, which mystified doctors and patients alike, resulted in autopsies, a procedure to which americans objected on religious grounds. meng americans drew on the first amendment and the category of religion to push back against these autopsies, and so they take their beliefs and practices seriously. the debates over meng egyptians to autopsies made it clear that there was significant autopsies between how -- understood health, sickness, and healing. these differences in the media coverage about them set up a collision of cultured narrative, a polarization narrative, if he will, that continues to be very powerful to this day. s jus t abut this clash narrative, whh emphasizes conflict and income palette ability is something that is just as important, that meng americans, and they're non hmong health care providers often found creative ways to work things out, to compromise, adapt individual actions, institutional policies, and what ideas of pluralism into practice, often behind the scenes. my paper is divided into two parts, first up again talking about the conflicts around hmong americans and health care, especially those related to autopsies and the songs crisis. then all switch to the compromises that they found in trying to find a way forward. so, first let me give you a little bit of background about among people. the munn aren't ethnic group native to southeast asia, most meng americans trace their origins to laos, where the allied with the united states in the war against communism, the secret war of the 1960s and 70s, as they fell to the communist, they were part of the wave of 1 million southeast asian refugees who came to the united states between 1975 in 2000. historically, some people have adhered to believe some practices they call the traditional way, it combines animism, and social warship, and shaman-ism. now, by the 1970s and 1980s, among american men had -- war, forced migration, settlement, but one of the things they feared most was dying in their sleep. during the 1970s and 1980s, sudden nocturnal death syndrome claimed the lives of 117 young hmong american men who are otherwise healthy, but 1984 the son's death rate among these men was huge. equal to the fore leading causes of death in all american men of that age group. the way these men died was mysterious and, terrifying. they would be sleeping peefully until suddenly they were gasping for air. legs kicking violently, only to dive and mina. one hmong woman witnessed her husband died this way, next to her in bed, she woke up and heard him morning and gasping, and he was dead that fast, her doctor said these american men afraid of dying in their sleet set their alarms to ring every 30 minutes through the night to ensure that they could stay alive. and sometimes these men were too afraid to sleep at all. a young and healthy man told a reporter in 1983 that the fear and sleeplessness made life as miserable as, and perhaps worse than, he said, his life during the war, he said, i worry, and i cannot make my body go to sleep. he forced himself to stay awake, hugely woke up in a sweat after only a few hours of sleep and fear of extreme sleep deprivation was destroying his life. these sons fatalities capture the intention of americans, public health officials, and medical researchers, who offered a wider way of explanations for sons, chemical warfare, vitamin deficiencies, nobody knew why they were dying, and it is in this context that doctors conducted autopsies on that hmong had died of sons. however, these americans objected to these autopsies, which they viewed as virtually harmful and dangerous. they used religion to make their case that doing them without families consent was unjust. the crisis gave rise to in landmark legal battle in which american successfully used the first amendment to protect themselves from medical procedures that they considered to be a violation of their deeply held religious beliefs and very spiritual in harmful. at the center of -- was a 23 year old rogue island men, one night in 1987 he is sleeping when he suffered a seizure that caused him to lose consciousness, he was rushed to the hospital where he passed away three days later in december 24th. the hospital staff unable to claim why he had died contacted the office of the state medical examiner, and on december 25th, without informing or securing permission of the family, the doctor, the chief medical examiner conducted an autopsy on his body. he later argued that he had encountered several unexplained deaths in rhode island, among the southeastern -- believed an autopsy is necessary to determine if an infectious agent capable of spreading an epidemic within the state have been the cause of his death. -- his parents were horrified to learn of the autopsy. and they argue that the states autopsy statutes violate their first amendment rights to exercise their religion freely. according to this court document, the yang family adhere to the religious beliefs of -- it prohibits me lays a shun of the body, including autopsies or the removal of organs during an autopsy. such an autopsy disrupted the spirits journey after death, causing consequences that the yang family believed would have consequences not only felt by him but the rest of the family. as the yang family explained to the court, the spirit of their son would not be free. therefore, his spirit will come back and take another person in his family. the court ruled that doctors turner had violated the young families religious believes that protected by the first amendment, and according to the decision, there was no compelling state interest in performing autopsies to over come the yang's religious beliefs. moreover, the judge decided it is reasonable to believe when a medical examiner receives the body of a person who might be among, he should realize that an autopsy would violate the religious beliefs of the descendants next of kin. the court later withdrew the decision upon considering the outcome of -- which was decided a few months later. nonetheless, the idea that meng believed some of the spirits were valid religious beliefs was never questioned. and more broadly, the case was a highly visible example of conflict that revealed a religious, spiritual, and cultural difference between among americans and their non hmong doctors. as well as the willingness of hmong americans to use the legal system to assert that their hmong traditions amount to a religion that merited first amendment protection. the crisis and unwanted autopsies were clear instances of conflict over unwanted medical procedures on the basis of religion. but it's also important to point out how the crisis created new circumstances for compromise and serious engagement with hmong spiritual believes about health and healing. in contrast to the physicians who thought that it was due to infectious disease or heart conditions, some scientists, anthropologist, and physicians, insisted that understanding the crisis required analysis not only of bodily health, but also spiritual well-being. they argued that hmong spiritual beliefs, along with the experiences of extreme stress and culture shock produced by its resettlement may have links to sons and produced a type of sleep paralysis that the researcher shelley adler decry as nocturnal spirit attacks. a physician researcher in minnesota recalls that everyone was fascinated by this phenomena, and wondered if their own field of expertise had something to contribute, like any good mr., he said, lots of people are trying to figure out from any direction. this included religion. for one, hmong researchers such as bruce, responded to the crisis by urging american researchers and physicians to understand how hmong interpreted sons. he was a hmong american man who chose -- and he wondered if traditional beliefs but illness and other contributing factors to sudden death. he looked at 45 cases by 1982, which is an extremely high rate in a population of only 110,000 hmong men at the time. he concluded that one triggering factor was stress to certain individuals caused by an inability to continue traditional religious practices and western countries or other religious difficulties. or stress caused by other reasons such as the inability to find traditional healing practices or the difficulty in adapting to a new lifestyle. that can cause a variety of health problems including sudden nocturnal death. not enough researchers and physicians followed this, but also begin to investigate spiritual beliefs in combination with the stresses of resettlement and for religious people. some weather -- illness a death caused some, what other suspected culture shock and change of beliefs being at fault. reflecting this alternative framework, the researchers at st. paul ramsey's medical center sought to collect data. not only about victims physical and mental health, but also their spiritual and religious beliefs. the planning product for example was a coordinated effort by public health officials and members of the refugee community to improve understanding. one of the central questions was, does anxiety from cultural uprooting and change in beliefs play a role in these deaths? it is a case question, which you can see here, revealing how physician researchers and health officials were engaging amongst spiritual beliefs. on the religious life, the questionnaire asked, did the person go to charge? what kind? did the subject believe what he heard in charge? did he retain the warship? what were his views about it? at the same time that americans and their allies were seeking more culturally informed approaches, they were also pushing for accommodations for traditional monk healing practices. individual health care providers sometimes made special effort to support practices among people. for example, one woman believed that one of her 12 spirits has been lost when she received treatment at st. paul ramsey medical center psychiatric clinic. they actually cleared out the clinic to allow a shaman to conduct a ritual to retrieve the lost spirit. health care institutions have found a way to accommodate and support mock practitioners, and so we're seeing this on the level of the individual and institution. by 1989, university hospital in st. paul was allowing shaman to burn incense and conduct rituals in hospital rooms. st. paul's children hospital ran a monk awareness program, and by 2009, mercy medical center in california created the first program in the nation to offer formal licenses amongst shaman's, who were approved by the hospital to conduct nine healing rituals. the story live free today matters for reasons -- based among the americans in the 80s and 90s. first, it reminds us that the issue of religious freedom and health should not be limited to contemporary issues facing white christians, especially evangelical christians. even though those topics tend to take up a lot of our attention. conflicts centered on religious objections to medical procedures are not new, they're not uncommon. and they don't always involve christians. they involve a diverse range of religious groups as well. when we turn to a conflict, we should also talk about compromise. highly visible legal disputes obscure a very basic point. hospitals can be a sight of a lot of underappreciated accommodation. and negotiation. it's important to consider as we think about seemingly interactive both problems about religious pluralism and religious freedom. when we talk about religion and health care, people often and faces conflict and polarization. they think about religion as an enemy. an irrational reason why people refuse an autopsy or lifesaving vaccine or surgery. we must remember that the most people, religion is a means of care, just like medicine is supposed to be a means of care. because both health care and religion are supposed to be focused on helping people solve the problems, it neither benefits necessarily from creating conflict. for these reasons, it moves off of scholars to look past the polarizing clash of culture headlines. as we pay tension to the multiple ways the people practiced lit religious pluralism in real life by creating solutions on the ground. thank you. >> all right. thank you all for being here, and thanks to the panel for commenting. it is such a pleasure to be able to listen to such fascinating work in the field. i hope that i can add to the conversation with my paper here. it comes from a second project, which deals with religion and financial fraud, and how financial fraud has been a realm in which the meaning of both religious freedom and religion itself has been made and remade. the project starts with a very simple question. when you give money to a religion, what do you expect to get in return? happiness? in her piece? more money? exchanges of this sort are essential to modern religion, especially in the united states. as the historian lawrence moore noted several decades ago, american religion has long been a commodity to be bought and sold in the marketplace of culture. this intermingling of religion and commerce has never sat well with many americans. it troubles the imagined distinction between the sacred and the profane. journalists, politicians, and religious leaders have all condemned and sometimes initiated legal action against religious movements that they saw as to crudely transactional. as movements promised to specific rewards for donations. non christian religions are at the forefront of this criticism. in the united states, christian churches have a well-established tradition of relying on voluntary contributions. their pleas from money are culturally sanctioned. not so for non christian traditions. their promises of health and wealth in exchange for money are seen not simply as part of the religious landscape, but as an attempt to fleece the colorful. numerous scholars of religion, including our commentator has explored the ways in which american religious freedom has been shaped by protestant influenced notions of what true religion looks like. i would like to add to the scholarship by emphasizing the importance of financial exchanges in this story. separating true and false, good and bad religion, often involves passing judgment on the exchange of money between religious donors and recipients. here, i will discuss one important example of this phenomenon. the mighty i am movement. largely forgotten today at its peak, the mighty i am was one of the largest of the alternative religious movements, which flourished in the united states in the decades between the world wars. critics of the movement emphasized what they saw as its overly transactional nature, which they believed make it not a religion, but a scam. it was created by a married couple with a deep interest in the cult, guy ballard, in addition to being a cult enthusiast, was also a golf prospect or. he was on a prospecting trip to california in 1930 that he underwent a spiritual transformation. he claimed that while prospecting and california's mount chest, he met the mysterious figure who identified himself as saint-germain. this figure took him on a voyage through time and space. he recalled these fantastic travels in his 1934 book, unveiled mysteries, which became the foundational taxed of the mighty i am. the cosmetology of i m was much less a creed than a kaleidoscope of recurring themes where it is like, energy, harmony, and love. if the movement had a central principle, it was one expressed in the first chapter of unveiled mysteries. what you think, and feel, you bring into form. there was no limit to what you would be x could achieve once they grasped this law of magnetic attraction. it was worth noting that this idea did not originate with the ballard's. the great love magnetic attack shun had been long is stable of what has the risk -- the term, hormone eel religion in america. what they added was a sense of drama and showmanship. starting in 1934, they toured the country seeing lectures, churches, country clubs, mid-atlantic temples, anything that would that have them. these massive meetings defined their movement. a journalist described one such event, quote, at the back of the stage is a great american flag. on each side of the platform are large prospects -- with bright floodlights beating down on them. guy and edna ballard appeared in spades, sporting jeweled american flags. they lead the crowd in chanting i am affirmations, demanding health and wealth for themselves, and annihilation for enemies. it is hard to judge the size and composition of the movement. thousands of people attended the meetings, but noted many came as much out of curiosity or desire for entertainment as devotion to the cause. observers noted that the audience is skewed white, female, and older, and many appeared to be middle class. westbrook peddler, he attended several rallies, noted that ballard's followers are obviously not poor. as the i am movement grew larger in the 1930s, its critics grew louder. in particular, he scorned them. it seemed impossible, he wrote, that in all of history, the human race has produced any more humiliating rebuke to its claims of reason than the mighty i am. these critics focused on what they perceived as the transactional, and commercial nature of the mighty i am. journalists who attended the rallies made sure to highlight the plentiful merchandise sold there. pins, even controller records. guy ballard died unexpectedly in december of 1939. his death plunged the movement into a crisis. soon after guy and his son, donald, became embroiled in the first suit, the subsequent investigations revealed that donald had received thousands of dollars from his parents, which critics cited as evidence that the bollards were using love gifts from followers to enrich themselves. then came a heavier blow. in july 1940, a grand jury indicted them in the number of -- 18 counts of mail fraud. the charges boiled down to a single claim. i am was not a religion, but a scam. central to this claim was the exchange of money that had taken place between the ballots and their followers. the indictment explained that every element of the i am theology in terms of how it enabled the ballots to scam people, for instance -- the impending apocalypse was explained as a way to convince followers. withdraw money to the bank, and give it to the ballard's. the trial started in december of 1940. witnesses for the government returned again and again to the issue of money. many testified for movements as well, claiming that the ballots took, quote, well over $1,000 a day. the government overall depicted the ballard as motivated not by belief, but by a hunger for profit. the trial turned on an implicit question. did the ballor's deliver on their promises. those that joey and i am got nothing in return for their money. one witness charged that i am had failed to heal her kidney and bladder trouble, despite the money that they had given them. the defense responded with testimonials from satisfied i am devotees. one man in the movement said, quote, i'm a better man physically, mentally, and spiritually. he had gotten, they said, a good bargain. the jury acquitted three defendants and locked on the remaining six. a retrial held in 1940 1:42 ended with convictions for edna and donald ballard. their case wound its way to the united states supreme court, which in may 1944, upheld the fraud conviction. five justices upheld the conviction, but suggested the ballard appeal on different grounds. writing for the majority, william o douglas asserted that the ballots should not be challenged on the truth or falsity of the religious police. harrison giles, a foreman of our constitution, said, standing alone was robert jackson. his dissent declared that the initial indictment violated the first amendment. his opinion contained a telling claim. if the members of the senate get comfort provided by this celestial guidance that they're saint-germain, however doubtful it seems to me, jackson wrote. it is hard to say that they do not get what they paid for. he understood that the court was being asked to pass judgment on the nature of the mighty i am's financial practices. the conviction was ultimately thrown out. not on religious freedom grounds, but because the federal government had excluded women from the juries which convicted the ballots. the victory was a hollow one. the fraud orders, which hinder the use of the mail, like the trial, and his death all contributed to the i am's slow and steady decline. although there are still elements, still temples of the i am remaining today, this case of the mighty on him is not just a colorful shadow. it is certainly colorful in its own way. it revealed how fears of fraud, and especially financial fraud, jostle against the broad and often vague protections afforded by religion to the first amendment. the resultant clashes have yielded a patchwork system of religious regulation, governed less by clear principles, then by add hawk decisions. the series of, as charlie put, including charlie thomas, micro climates of religious freedom. more broadly, the history of the mighty i am suggests important truths about american religion. financial practices are religious practices. giving money could have just as much significance as saying a prayer for burning incense. the addition of a financial elements attracts the unwelcome attention of outsiders. it invites government officials to sit in judgment on whether these kinds of exchanges are legitimate. whether there is a fair exchange going on between donor and recipient. political history of religious freedom and religious pluralism, which we are discussing here, requires attention to these kinds of financial exchanges. it is in these areas did the meaning of religious freedom, and religious pluralism is often been hammered out. thank, you and i'm looking forward to the conversation. [applause] >> thank you to all three of you. it was very fun to read through your papers and advance, and then to hear them again. i had written of comments, and now i have all of this additional chicken scratch on my notes. i want to be pretty brief in response to allow time for any questions that are unanswered, and also for conversation among the panel. carly asks, what is religious freedom look like in imperial spaces? her paper shows how religious freedom served as part of the propaganda of u.s. military and imperial explain shun in the second world war. it will not be a surprise to carly to hear -- i hear a lot of echoes in this story for their own work on u.s. imperial conquest in the philippines in 1898. when similar u.s. came in as a u.s. conquering force, claiming to free the philippines from the tyranny of spain. they supposedly did not allow religious freedom in the same way the u.s. claimed in the marshall islands of japan, which inhibited religious freedom. i think that there is a bigger story there, the bigger story about a u.s. empire and narratives of bringing freedom and sometimes religious freedom in particular to places where u.s. military and imperial interests dictate a military presence. anyway, carly writes about the history of the u.s. empire and freedom in the marshall islands as an example of the localized patterns of religious freedom, and i'm glad you ended with the micro climates of religious freedom. that is kind of a theme through my comments that i love that concept from julian thomas. carley points out that climate is not only a metaphor for how religious freedom plays out at the local level, but that material changes in climate that are disproportionately effective by the marshall islands. it also has an impact on the politics of religious freedom and religious pluralism. just bringing refugees, climate refugees around the world, including united states for some of their dislocations. it's a result of climate change. this is an essential point, and i think it's an important question for us to all think about, as we think about this bigger theme of the politics of religious freedom, of pluralism, and how climate caused migrations and dislocations, and will also transform the politics of religious pluralism and religious freedom around the world. and yet, as we think about climate change, i also am tempted to use those metaphors. i'm tempted to extend it further. -- and local circumstances. they are also shaped by global climate change. in the same way, how do geo politics and globally dominant models of religious freedom, as outlined by international bodies like the united nations, and big powers like the united states, also shaped the micro climates of religious freedom? within the u.s., marshal islands around the world, i think that i love the concept of micro climates of religious freedom, and i think it's absolutely degenerative. i think it's moving too far in a kind of local history kind of way, and forgetting the big power plays that also shape those micro climates. that is my extension of the metaphor. melissa points us to another micro climate of religious freedom with the story of immigrants stricken by unexplained nocturnal death in the 19 80s and 90s. they objected to the autopsies in an effort to understand the causes of this syndrome. here we have a micro climate formed by the influence of a health crisis affecting the specific immigrant community among refugee experience and spiritual traditions. american medical practices and the defense possibilities, and by defense, i mean the way that the monk community self defended themselves against autopsy. against this pressure, these medical practices, all of these are factors -- part of a specific micro climate at play here. american -- of people defending themselves in religious freedom terms. i know that melissa thinks about that point a lot in her larger work. melissa, you draw an intriguing parallel between this story and the contemporary controversies of religious exemptions in the covid-19 vaccine. you remind us that many communities object to medical procedures for reasons that they name as religious. as scholars, we should remember that these are not specific to conservative christians today. they cut across many different kinds of communities, and you know that solution to such conflicts are often worked out at a local level. in hospitals, and local community organizations as it seems that it was ultimately done in a case of community leaders working with doctors and hospitals, and health organizations. and especially in the courts, where they're framed as high-profile culture wars. this account evening with some final questions about the politics of religious pluralism on the ground. the high value assigned to religion and religious freedom in the united states creates a climate that encourages people, both among refugees in the 19 80s, and conservative christians today, to frame their concerns about autopsies, or about vaccines in the language of religious freedom. in both cases, these arguments gained some traction. for the monks, it seemed like this is a useful defense, both politically and in the courts. i wonder if the macro politics of religious freedoms in the context of today's culture wars solidify and intensifies concerns about vaccines that our variable sources of the concerns in different communities. it solidifies and defines them as religious objections, because of the availability and utility of the religious freedom defense. it gets in the way of locally compounded solutions that you are suggesting. i think that today, because of the way that religious freedom is so politically polarized, it is getting in the way, and it didn't in the case that you are talking about. does the availability of religious freedom as a rallying cry sometimes create more problems that it solves? finally, will schultz examines the fraught history of the i am movement and allegations of fraud and legal rulings that can attributed to its legal solution. here we see another micro climate of religious freedom, when that was shaped by the physical and -- and authoritarianism, it is fraudulent propaganda topics that were revised in the 1930s. the early debates about the early contours of religious freedom that were more entering the courts in this period, by the privileges that dominant forms of christiane 80 enjoyed and still enjoys under u.s. law. the courts are fire likely to be supportive and critical of moments like i am. this case suggests that in the united states, religious freedom is inseparable from financial practices. when i read that, i had a bit of a i am go idiot skeptical response. i'm intrigued by the claim. of course, i would agree that capitalism and financial markets are ever-present in american life. i still wonder how widely this intersection holds true. i keep changing my mind as i think about it. you make it more specific claim in conclusion that, especially for alternative religious movements like new and alternative religious movements, fears of fraud, especially financial fraud, have jostled against the religion by the first amendment. this is particularly true as you said in a case of alternative religious movements, precisely because they are forced to struggle for recognition's for legitimate religion in the first place. i wonder, instead of showing the religious freedom always intersecting with financial practices, doesn't this case show above all how the law has so often worked to police what counts as religious legitimate religion, in these fears of financial fraud, which have been levied against many religious movements, not just i am, which proves your point. particularly in a society that is plural, with the pride that americans take in religious freedom, it's very much dominated by christian values. then i thought that if you are just talking, i wonder how this mixes with the major religion stories today, which are mostly about the rights claimed by the majority, by a kind of christian majority that believes itself to be besieged by the secular state. i am narrating my own thought process. those don't have anything to do with financial controversy, but wait, yes they do. in a very different way. i'm thinking of cases like hobby lobby where it has to do with whether christian charges, or in the case of hobby lobby, a corporation that identifies itself as christian is obligated to pay for contraceptive coverage for employees when they object to the abortion, or the contraception that might be there for covered. that's a different kind of financial issue. and so i think back over the course of religious freedom in the u.s. history, and there are a lot of cases where controversies have to do with property law. there is another kind of financial strain there. i want to ask you how you would weave all of this together, and whether there is a kind of, you are framing the intersection between religion and finance exclusively in this paper in relation to fears of fraud. i think that there are other ways in which religious freedom intersects with histories of corporation, finance, history, that maybe even strengthen their case about. not that i expect in the next five minutes, but i'd love to think with you about narrating your set of intersections, and producing it. whether you are here, i'm going to stop. that was longer than i expected to talk. i will let you guys take a few minutes to respond, and then we have a fairly small audience, but we will take any questions or comments that might have an audience. please remember to speak directly into the mic. if you will have any questions, because of the audience, please go to the mic and speak. >> if you want to do that? >> okay. any questions from the audience? the panelists would like to hear from you. >> thank you for a great panel, a great set of papers. it's really fascinating. my name is lloyd meyer, i'm a professor at notre dame. i saw two related questions, i'll ask each quickly. one is, the presentation touched on the fact that the religious practices and beliefs that run into conflict and the ones that are out of the mainstream. they are not generally in traditional beliefs and practices. the relevant officials, the doctors in the case of autopsy, the medical examiners that share. and so they seem to have less protection as a result. at least in the historical studies that you're involved in. i'd be curious to know, especially with the marshall allen case, what surprised me is that the fact that the military was actually in 1940s, objecting to religious instruction in the school. but even assuming -- >> it was objective in the school. even though that it was in protestant faith, otherwise supportive of and lined out with presumably the beliefs of military leadership. and why the fact that the objective sides was kind of behind that. that was one question. the other question, which was for all of the panelists, in another panel, somebody said and suggested that rights are for losers. this was touchdown by moderator. it's the fact that when the sum behind the scene comment -- it's that when employment division was decided, and it was said that the first amendment does not protect religious practices and applicable laws, justice scalia, i've heard directly say that at that point, he is assumed that the religious practices and beliefs of the majority of christian faith would need protection. it was sort of in the water. it will be protected, and then generally applicable neutral laws were minority religious practices. at that point, just thinking about how the consequences in the decision would play out. but now we see, as you mentioned, the religious rights groups really working to defend religious freedom from the majority faith. often, interestingly enough by minority faiths, in order to establish precedents they can be used by the majority fate. i'd be interested in how the panelists think about what we are seeing. supporters and even the largest faith bodies, whether it's catholic or protestant, whatever, not just being defensive in the sense of some sort of political strategy, really being defensive. really being concerned that's whether it's today, or next year, or ten years from now, their rights are noted, and that's why they're trying to establish the favorable precedents now to protect religious freedom. and wisely, using those religious practices of majority safes is the vehicles for doing so. cases involving -- and quite willing to defend a religious practices of minority fans as well as the -- and so i went on for a bit, but i look forward to the discussion. >> wonderful set of questions. i was there for the losers comment, which was confusing in some way. it's interesting to note first how there are many groups that are not very marginalized in communities. they are nonetheless, especially in the past couple of decades, very happy to invoke this kind of language of rights, even if they don't see themselves. they can recognize its potency, and recognize the place where these issues are going to be hammered out. it's in the courtroom. and so i think that they have to tailor their language to win over non-voters, not lawmakers, but judges. in terms of groups of mainstream groups recognizing the potential of voting in these marginalized communities, to establish favorable precedents. they start to see elements of that in the mighty i am case. after the ballard's are put on trial, christian century, the magazine that embodies the protestant establishment of its -- several times in their favor, and says that these trials, the trials of the bollards, are the threat to all religious communities. this starts to get at what lisa mentioned about weaving together the broader story, and wonderful comments by the way. i'm sure we'll get around to addressing some of them in the conversation here. there is this idea of the internal workings of religious institutions, which should be invaluable. it should not be the government prying open the black box of religious fundraising, and think about what is going on with this exchange. that's what these christian century says, and a couple of decades later, when the -- are imperiled, the losses against them, there are lawsuits against the unification church of -- whether there are lawsuits against the hawaiian church of god, which is protestant, but a far more apocalyptic and extreme brand of protestantism. there are lots of more quote unquote, mainstream religions that rallied to their side, who filed priests on their behalf, who worked with them. they see it as a way to defend this reliability of religious institutions. one of the longer threads here is the unusual alliances produced, where these questions are both religious freedom and financial transactions. that is just my starting its, but again, that is a very thought-provoking point. >> thank you for your wonderful set of questions. just really quickly on that second question, it makes me think again of our prevailing metaphor, the micro climate, just how quickly things shift, even back five or ten years ago. that was kind of the trend of the conversation on religious freedom, and how the troops deployed that. this historical origin of religion. you see how this goes from being used as a minority group, to being the mainstream groups. and how that kind of brings in a lot more people. it becomes a large and political controversy, and then becomes no longer tenable to use that as something else. on your question about the british islands, i think that it is very fascinating, because this case in the marshall islands speaks to a particular moment in time. it speaks to a number of debates that were playing out at that time. one of them was about whether christiane 80 or secularism was the appropriate foundation for democracy. a lot of people might say that that's two sides of the same coin. in the marshall islands, you see this retention, because you see people that are not sure yet about how these marginalized people become. we don't know it and we're going to be educating people. we don't know what role christiane achieve play. there are a number of logistical hurdles, and governing spread out across 750 square miles. we think that what we see in that situation is marginalized people whose territory it is, who have these insider knowledge is. they have to insert this authority. you have u.s. military saying one thing, and people are cheering, and are also doing what they want to. the military did not really have anybody at that point, and so they weren't sure what was going on in those schools. it's kind of like the missionaries implementing their own agenda at the local level, apart from what was going on in the atmospheric level. the larger level. i'll pause there, because i'm sure other people have things to say. it's a wonderful question, because it really does speak to that particular moment that could've gone in a lot of different directions. >> i'd like to pick up on this theme of unusual alliances. i think you can say this in so many different barriers of american politics. unusual alliances, i think this is a particularly rich state -- changing configurations of political alliances. i think you're exactly right, religious freedom arguments have been used for different purposes. maybe there is different moments when, say, white evangelical christians could find common cause with muslims in their community around shared concerns related to religious freedoms. i just want to point out something very obvious that we can point to. in recent years, and in the past, longer history, how a lot of [interpreter] -- our hostile to the mere presence of the communities. very congresses -- and so maybe an abstract, there is unusual alliance work going on, but i think it's useful to really focus on what is happening in the real world, real communities, and pointing to the fact that it is often religious groups that are acting to the presence of muslim refugees in the united states. it's also religious groups that are making a strong case for admission of refugees in the united states. you see that on both sides, but i think that real life examples of what people do in real communities matters a lot here if we think about this issue. >> yes. i can't resist but comment on this as well. i think what melissa just said is essential. that we can never say religion writ large is on any side of anything, right? because that -- i think to assume that, which too often gets assumed in the public discourse, is to only read scribe and worsened the problem. it's also inaccurate because there is no one movement, just one view on everything. you know, yes, some christian groups have for principled reasons, for strategic reasons, supported religious freedom freedom cases from coming from the -- that affects minority groups at other times and other christian groups. they have actively try to exclude minority groups and have absolutely not supported that religious freedom claims of minority groups. i also wanted to comment on this cool question. to kind of add to what the -- what carly said. i think to add, you said it was a particular cultural moment. i think that's absolutely right. to add another dimension to the cultural moment, as you narrated it, would be the way that, in the united states, the idea that religious instruction should be kept out of the public schools was the product of a very long and hard fought battle. a serious of wars. a series of culture wars through the 19th and earlier 20th century. by the 1940s it had come to a particular point where the schools were to be a splays for civic instruction. to bring religious instruction into the schools was too politically polarizing. i think u.s. government officials were, like, that was the kind of settlement that had become mostly accepted in the united states at the mid 20th century moment, right? that then was being exported to a very different context and micro climate in the marshall islands. i would add to that, unlike that -- i mentioned my work on the philippines earlier, in 1898 and four decades earlier in the philippines, this story actually looked quite different. and the u.s. military governors and that were managing schools in the philippines, they were working closely with missionaries. there was christian instruction that they brought in. they thought it was entirely consistent with their kind of bringing religious freedom to the philippines. it was a different moment. >> let me add to that, right? it's one thing to say, there's a rule against teaching about religion or teaching religion in schools. it's a completely different thing to not teach religion in schools or to extricate all sorts of different types of values from educational environments. these are debates that we are seeing today in different forms play out. i would say, tisa, this is exactly right. the united states and the marshall islands have very distinct histories. when you see those converge in his period in time, it produces something quite unique and different. in the marshall islands, it proceeded a lot a very different trajectory that it has in the united states in terms of the role religion plays in society and the way religious freedom is interpreted and enacted in the marshall islands today. >> let me pause there. any other questions from the audience? well, i think i will ask you all to either respond at greater length to my questions or pose questions we each other. we have about five more minutes. >> well, i can make a quick response to some of the really thought-provoking points you brought up in your comment about -- here is the financial fraud as policing the boundary between mainstream and marginal religions. i think that's one of the key things i do want to get across in my project here. the way that some practices are identified as fraudulent is a form of policing the boundaries of what true religion is, versus phony religions, scam religion. genuine versus spurious kind of religion. of course, it's worth noting that that kind of division also carries racial overtones, sometimes far more than overtones. it is often minority communities, say, father defiance peace mission or the movement led by the african american minister sweet daddy grace, which are targeted by muck raking journalists and politicians and regulators. it does not always hold true. again, the mighty am is a predominantly white movement. as you said, it's a place where attention to the broader climate of the arab becomes important. the fears of iam are related to these fears of to tele-terrine-ism. a lot of people talk about how -- ballard is becoming a peewee hitler, or mystical mussolini, something along those lines. the last thing i would say is this, which relates in part to what professor maher brought up in your question. the idea that, in some ways it's often marsh marginalized communities. it's usually the marginalized communities that bear the brunt of this regulation. there are also times when coming further into the mainstream, highlights practices which would otherwise have gone unnoticed because of the community was more marginalized. you see this in certain evangelist circles. communities and practices which were formed under the radar before are now subject to greater scrutiny because evangelicalism is less marginalized over the second half of the 20th century. let me stop there and thank again for the comments. >> well, this is so fascinating. i have a couple questions based on your comments. i can't help but reflect on the ways in which scholars of religion and debate among themselves about whether and how you might define religion, and also how this extends into fraud and how if we can't come up with a definition for a religion or fraud, are we ceding that space to, you know, congress or judges? and then the ways in which our scholarship, like julie and thomas have shown, can have these long term, unintended consequences. we do way in on these debates. i'm curious if you have any comments on the unintended consequences of this controversy, the mighty am controversy, and the ways in which it seems like you are almost pointing, or do you see yourself as an conversation with people like kevin cruz and bethany moore? the way in which decisions around religion and tax exempt status, the bob jones case, for example, led to the rise and creation of the christian right in the united states later on? >> yeah. that's a really good question. as is often the case with good questions, i don't have a good answer to it. but i do think it's worth, i'm at the point in the project where i have less arguments than stories. just a story which goes to that point. you brought up the bob jones case. and what the relationship between religion and financial practices shows, what that history shows is that the tensions between the internal revenue service and religion, especially conservative religion, did not begin with the segregation academy issues in the 1970s. the televangelists, not televangelists, the crusading televangelists struggled with the internal revenue service all throughout the 1950s over the tax exempt status of his christian crusade ministry. the irs says, no, you are not a religious movement. you are a political movement. there is another kind, there it's less a question of fraud. and no one is saying that he is stealing money. but there is a question of misrepresentation. there is that question of, how do you draw the boundary between the religious and political? >> yeah. >> melissa, do you want to have the final word? >> i would like to respond to your very provocative question, tisa, about the availability of religious freedom as an argument. i will be sitting with that a lot. i really like the question, the way you frame it. that is the availability of religious freedom and surrounding crime create more problems than it solves? in the current moment, i'm a historian, i don't study the current moment much, but i'm curious to know how religion focused vaccine discussions are playing out, if that's at all the effective. when we look at the hyper level -- we health care providers, patients and so on, but also related to other issues. religion focus discussions on contraception and abortion can be much more complex than we give it credit for. in the earlier panel about polarization, i spent a lot of time talking about the consequences of our democracy and political parties. here, i would like us to think about how this panel reminds us of the consequences of our countries investment in the category of religion. so we don't have many things, any identities discussed in the constitution. but we do have religion. one of the consequences of that, i would say in the american political context, religion is a means of securing resources. resources of rights, respect, recognition. and so, i think it's worth imagining american political life today, we are talking about religion, we can't just focus on beliefs. we can't just focus on practices. we need to think about how it is a tool that people use to do very various things, which some may consider good or bad, but it's a tool that people used to advance what they see as what's in their best interest. >> we are out of time. please join me in thanking the panelists! 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