Transcripts For CSPAN3 Religion And Americas Founding 20161203

Let me tell you a little bit about john. He is the chair of the history department. His first book, the way of ofrovement and the rule enlightenment in early america examined the relationship between calvinism, cosmopolitanism and an enlightenment some and anden his him enlightenment in the 20th century. Written atly he has history of the american bible society. John has worked along with the the new yorkst and daily news. And he has done scholarly articles and the american articles in lead the journal of American History articles in the journal of American History. Bookll speak about his was america founded as a christian nation . Rereleaseds recently. It an author called remarkably useful guide of navigating the arguments of americas christian origin. At the conclusion of this talk he will to a question answer session. There is a mike in the gallery if you want to ask a question. To the stage, repeat the question, and he will answer it. It is my pleasure to bring him to you tonight to bring dr. Dr. Fea tonight. Please join me in welcoming dr. John fea. [applause] is greatthank you, it to be here in danville at center college. I have never been to this part of kentucky before preat i have never flown into lexington before. Ive been to louisville if you times, but this part i have not visited. It is great to be here. Im glad that cspan is here. And the topic i want to talk with you about tonight is a topic that is at the crooks of some of the things i do at crux of what i do. Book has really been an effort for me to try to make sense of the relationship , specificallyon christianity, and the founding of our country. Much of the debate over this of was america founded as a christian nation, you probably hear this and cable news. Much of the debate has been driven by political agendas. If we can just prove america was not founded as a christian nation, we can advance a certain political position. Or if we can prove it was founded as a christian nation we need to reclaim that or return to some golden age. Of what people on both sides the political aisle try to do, especially as it relates to religion is they cherry pick. And they marshal that evidence to promote their contemporary agenda. On do a talk on this topic i come to a place where they come with their minds already made up about how they would answer the question. Really here together and do ammunition and find New Historical insight that will help them to continue to propagate whatever cultural or religious agenda they have. The title of my book is there because it is my attempt to think about this question historically. I dont think it is possible to ever be completely objective as a historian, but what if we were to think about relationships without 20thcentury politics in mind. That may reflect the narrative or the story or some complicated nuance and complex ways of thinking about this question. Thistunately much of conversation is dealing with politics when it comes to the christian conversation in america. In fact i would argue the title of my book is a bad historical title. Is taking, as i argue in the book, it is taking a question, was america founded as a , that reallyion . Was only asked to any degree of commonality it wasnt really asked in American Culture until the late 1970s and early 1980s. No one at the time of the founding was asking this in any significant way. So it is taking a 20thcentury question and superimposing it on Founding Fathers who lived in a different time and different place and who are not fighting the same culture wars in the same way we do today. I think that is why it is a bad historical title. The original title of the book is boring. My publisher said if you call this book, was america founded as a christian nation . , and even put a red white and blue cover on it, they may sell more books. It has done fairly well. I wanted to do in the limited time i had to do this is thented to reflect on what founders believed about the relationship between religion and the republic that they were trying to create in the 18th century. And i want to leave you with five things to think about. You go home for thanksgiving and debate your parents about this topic, because i know you have all these meaningful conversations about the dinner table, during thanksgiving, let me give you some ammunition to use no matter what side of the question you fall on. The first assertion that i want that americans always believed they were living in a christian nation, or at least if i can nuance that more, americans up until the 1970s and 80s believe that in one form or another they were living in a christian nation. If you do not believe america was somehow a christian nation, or you may expand it to a judeochristian nation. You are in the minority. You are not in the mainstream. The idea that americans believe they were living in a christian , i dont mean to say whether or not they were right. Theyt mean to suggest were interpreting the constitution or the founding documents correctly. This is sort of a historical fact of a life and culture in American History from roughly 1789, the passing of the ratification of the constitution, until the 1980s. When people thought about living in a christian nation, or in some cases aspiring to live in a christian nation, they often dont mean the same thing. Of the six and seven pictures you see up there, each one of their own unique way articulated the idea that america was somehow a christian nation. Lets take the first person up there. He talked to specifically about racial inequality, racial , the judeochristian root of our nation. In other words for america to be more dish be a more christian nation we need to solve this problem of race and segregation. We articulate that in strong christian nation kind of terms. It appeals to some ancient christian leaders. There is one example. When the Supreme Court passed the case the holy trinity case, in that case Justice Brewer wrote the majority of opinions and in that opinion he america is a christian nation and was founded as a christian nation. That didnt necessarily mean there was an established church. He went off on a speaking tour around the country, talking about the idea that america had christian roots. The next guy was a great defender of a movement in the and in0th centuries order to make the United States more christian, in order to make a christian nation out of us we need to be more sensitive to social ills. We need to care more, we need to address the structural problems of poverty in our culture. And if we do that america will be a much more christian nation, using those very words to describe what his ultimate goal was. Some of you may be familiar with jerry falwell. Writing in the wake of the ice and tenniel of the bicentennial. Also a host of other things. The removal of prayer from there are much more complex conversations about what he was motivated by. The americans needed to return to christian roots, making the arguments that many Founding Fathers were christian and we need to get back to the judeochristian country they created. When we think of defenders of Christian America and American History. We dont think of the pope. The man we see there is very thatential in articulating catholics were at the heart of the building. They helped build america as a christian nation. Look at the mayflower, look at the puritans and the christian origin. Like youly says things guys think you are the first one here to establish the christian nation. To look at the roots, go to Saint Augustine florida or go to the Spanish Mission in the southwest. The one to establish Christian Culture in america. Not they saying we were christian nation that you think we were. Billy graham should be a familiar face to some of you. He could believe america that she believed america could be a christian say should test christian nation. Ralliesthese massive around the world. One of the first histories in america, in the first couple of century, and19th if you read the book it is heavily providential. God uniquely has blessed the United States. This is an exceptional nation. This is a christian nation all over this early book. One of the great female writers of the early 19th century. Young but very active. They all of pro to this Christian Nationalism in a slightly different way. But they use the language and rhetoric as a christian nation in one form or another. When the book came out we were in the 150th anniversary of the civil war. What is fascinating is both the north and the south view than as a holy war to some extent. Both sides were articulating a view that truly the christian nation and god is on our side. He kind of says no, we are all guilty. Both read the bible the same way. But this is not the way it played out. Many northern christians will believe that the union was somehow created by god. Its actually a wig senator vitter he refused to join the Republican Party in the 1850s because it was a party of division. He wants to make sure it is a national sacred division. Nation. Was a christian specially ordained this nation. To break up or to divide this nation would be seen as an incredible wrongdoing. The confederacy on the other hand, they believe god was on their side. Memorizedu may have the preamble to the United States constitution. I have heard it through those saturday morning schoolhouse rock, we the people. I cant say the preamble without thinking that song. What were seeing is the preamble to the federal constitution. Try to figure out what is added to this preamble that is not in the original United States constitution. We the people of the i willrates state give you that one. That is not in the original United States constitution. Acting in its own independent character in order to form a more permanent and federal government. What is missing, what is added . Reference to an invocation of a mighty god. The confederates got a huge amount of mileage. You think god is on your side in this war . You think we are the christian nation . You dont even have god in the preamble to the constitution. And it got so many northern who came together to form the nra. This is called the National Reform association. National reform association, which had the sole purpose of trying to put an amendment to the United States constitution, we are a christian nation. So that we can compete with the south. See how this religion and Christian Nationalism plays a role. Always believed they were living in a christian nation. We are always aware of fact there are living in a christian nation. How about the bible . The bible was important to the revolutionary generation. L read all of the writings of the founding father. Constitution, signed the state constitution. In their was cited writing more than any other book. These were very biblically literate people. Whether they believe the bible was useful and useful to the construction of the nation. The bible was cited more than any other book. , otherair to the data books, other authors and classical writers, greek and romans, political writers of the day, commonwealth men. Other kind of political tracks. If you add up all of the nonbiblical books, they will far exceed the number of times the bible was cited. Does that make sense . It depends on what you want to do with that information. You can work in any way you want. We were a christian nation and the founders believe the bible there were more on those more on the secular side. In my studies on the use of the bible and the revolutionary generation, i found one of the most popular verses that was from the new testament book chapter five verse one. You see it up there. Stand firm and to not let yourself be burdened by the yoke of slavery. I read up on the way this verse has been interpreted by christians throughout the decades, the centuries. I went back and read some of the earliest christians in the third and fifth century. Variation, was some i think it is fair to say most christian theologians interpreted this as somewhat dispersed along these lines. The yoke of slavery was interpreted as the force. Ven some evil the form of a man through the incarnation, dying for the sins of the world. This is a standard catholic and later on protestant interpretation. Thats why i was stunned when i was in the archives reading a sermon by a new jersey 1775. Terian minister in he was preaching a sermon on this passage. At least any of his notes are an indication. Really meant, what this verse meant was it was metaphorical. We have been set free from that. Slavery is also a political term to describe. This hadthe kicker of price their continental army. He stood up there and said the sermon means it was preached in the summer of 1775. Lexington and concord happened. This is the sermon, this is it this is how he interprets it. Im not a theologian. Cannot say with any degree of certainty whether they correctly interpreted galatians 51. I can say his interpretation is an innovative one when you compare it to the entire history of the way the church has interpretative this verse. Examples hundreds of like that. I cant even fit it all in the book. Byipture is being used politicians. I think we call that continuity. Usedible is clearly being to promote a political agenda. In this case the american the american revolution. Let the tories off the hook. Im going to read this passage to you. I want you to think about the 1775. T of let every soul be subject to the higher powers. Ordained. That be are whosoever resists the power and the ordinance, they shall receive dam nation. Imagine how an antirevolutionary would use this text. The king george the third is our godgiven authority. It is to rebel against the. Uthorities if you keep reading you will find references to paying your taxes. , paying your imagine how powerful this verse this person this verse is used. The bible was extremely important, it was quoted all the time, but i was fascinated with how the bible was used. In many cases it is often third, the constitution, i would argue, is a godless document. There is no reference to god in the United States constitution. There is one reference to religion and that is article six, which says there will be no you can hold a federal office regardless of your religious beliefs. If you look at the first amendment, of course, there are a few references to religion as well. There is the disestablishment cause clause. There is the free exercise clause. We will not get into how to interpret those. Usually, someone in the audience will say during the q a, what about in the year of our lord or under god . You got me. It does say in the year of our lord. Just added ony well after they left the convention anyway. This,s interesting about at the time of the revolution, all 13 of the former colonies also developed constitutions. I 1780, we have 13 separate state constitutions by 1780, we have 13 separate state constitutions. They are far from godless. Lets look at the constitution from my home state of pennsylvania. Anyone running for vote and signing up to pennsyvania in 1776 had to declare, i do believe in one god. Youve got to be a believer of god who creates and governs the universe and i do acknowledge the scriptures of the old and new testament to be given by divine inspiration. Said, you canon certainly run for federal office but you cannot run for state office. The people of pennsylvania were very interested in having to beians to be able running our state. They doook at vermont, write a constitution in 1777. I love the example of vermont because today it is an example of a bastion of progressivism. First date to endorse first state to endorse gay marriage. To thelmost identical pennsyvania constitution except that it is even more limiting. You need to be a protestant. Case in a large number of state constitutions and then there are other states that continue to have a religious establishment. Maryland, all of these states have an official church in which your taxpayer money goes to support the ministers of that church whether you belong to that church or not. If you are a baptist in massachusetts in 1810, you are paying a religious tax that will pay the salary of the congregational ministers because the congregational ministers, congregationalism is the established church. The last state to get rid of this is massachusetts in 1830. Was america founded as a christian nation . It gets tricky now. Nation . A under the articles of confederation, the government before the constitution, each individual state had sovereignty. Some of these states had clearly establishments. Virginia. Xample is you have this classic showdown. You have these two socalled Founding Fathers. You have Patrick Henry on one side. He is the advocate of what becomes known as the general assessment. Henrys ideas, we get rid of the established church in virginia, which was the anglican church, and we stillthat have a religious pact but everybody religious tax, but everybody will pay the tax and the money will go to their own denominational ministers. If you do not have a religion, it will go to help the poor. It is still a tax on religion. The State Government is making. Then you have the medicinejefferson cant camp. Njefferson we need to keep government out of religion. And vice versa. Massachusetts, virginia, so they knew, vermont. Pennsylvania, vermont. Is the nation unified yet . Some historians argue there is not really a nation until after the civil war. We historians who like to make the smooth places rough. How do you sort that out when you are asking the question . After everything i have just said, the founders were champions of religious freedom. Every founding father defended the right of human beings to worship god in the way they saw fit or not worship god at all. Here we have the 1786 virginia statute of religious liberty. Jefferson. Thomas 1790, George Washington writes a letter to the jewish congregation in newport, rhode island, the oldest existing synagogue building. Says, i will a firm youre right to worship youre right to worship freely without persecution from the federal government. Religious liberty is celebrated. Whatne may ask me later, would the Founding Fathers believe about our religious debates today . I have no idea. They gave us some basic principles about religious liberty that we should defend. Could not imagine some of the issues we are debating today. Founding fathers all defended the right to worship freely. That does not mean and pennsyvania or vermont, you will not be in government, you will not be able to vote or hold the position in government. We will let you worship as free as you want but we want just , instians or protestants some cases, to serve and political positions. To serve in political positions. It is fair to say that the Founding Fathers believed that religion was good for the republic. We need to remind ourselves of something. The Founding Fathers were not pastors. They were not theologians. When they talked about religion, they were not talking about religion in a way that, here is what you need to believe to get to heaven or to be right with god. They were faced with the task of building a republic. And they knew, because they took history 101, they took world civ, theywestern knew that in order for republics to survive, people needed to for the greater good of the republic. They called this virtue. It was a political idea, virtue. Virtue was a very masculine quality. Believede founders that if religion was a way in which we could teach american citizens how to do that, how to be virtuous, as defined in the 18th century, it would be useful to the republic. Wasther words, religion only useful if its hot people thinkit taught people to about something higher than themselves and it would only be useful if we could transfer that sacrificial idea to politics. Their emphasis on christianity was understood in the context of their primary goals, to build a virtuous republic. America always perceived americans always perceive themselves to be living in a christian nation. The bible was important to the founding generation. Fathers created a godless constitution but did not create godless state constitutions, for the most part with the exception of virginia. The Founding Fathers defended religious liberty. The founders believed religion was good for the republic. There is more in the book, but these are the key themes we have to consider at the thanksgiving table when we start to debate, did the Founding Fathers really believe they were founding the christian nation . What is the relationship what betweenrelationship christianity and the american founding question mark thank you founding . Thank you. [applause] all right. Questions. Dr. Fea if you are up there, it is hard to see. The lights are in our eyes. [inaudible] after this book, did dr. Fea come to a conclusive answer . Dr. Fea if i had a dime for every time that was the first question. [laughter] as a historian, i want to make the smooth places rough. Be auman experience can complex experience. It is hard to put into blackandwhite categories. You could make an argument that the founders believed toistianity was important the republic in terms of the last and i made about the role of virtue and sustaining a virtuous republic and in terms that many of them believe the kind of people they wanted running their country where people who were of christian faith. The strongest argument, the state constitutions and the virtuous republic are the strongest arguments to make in favor of the idea that america was founded as a christian nation. This is an historical treatment. It is almost impossible, except , it is hard tos make an argument after the civil war that america is somehow a christian nation and that is because of the 14th amendment. It says that states must abide by the bill of rights. It is designed for slavery, right . The states have to they can no longer make their decisions regarding slavery but later in the 20th century, the 14th amendment was applied to religion and the argument went, you can no longer say as a state, we have an established church. That would violate either article six of the constitution or the first amendment. The states, on religious issues, must conform to they may not like it, but they are legally bound to conform to the bill of rights or article six. It is very hard on that front to make an argument that America Today is a christian nation. Look at the states. That does not apply anymore after the 14th amendment. Like it or not, that is not apply anymore. There are ways you could argue no, too. I did not talk about the religious beliefs of the Founding Fathers. The idea that the constitution is godless. Centurycomplex into problem, 18th century problem, 18thcentury question. In the way this question is debated today, where we cherry pick what we want from the past. I do not think it is a helpful question today. So yes and no. [inaudible] the question is, how does this research inform our understanding of the culture wars today . Book, i going into this tried to be as objective as possible. I would be lying if i said i did not go in with a preconceived idea. I was telling some students how i first came upon this book. I am a christian, i attended congregation in which people ask me a lot about this. They still do. Many ordinary churchgoers do not phd inthe pew with a history. When they talk to me, what do you think about this idea . It is a conversation starter. The crude answer to why i wrote i would not have to keep answering. I went to it trying to challenge the notion that i see on the religious right of this promotion of the idea that we are a christian nation as an essential part of the culture war. That we can win the culture war if we can just get Thomas Jefferson on our side or we can appeal to George Washington or something in the founding that talks about god or religion. I would watch these efforts made by very popular people with very large followings within certain Christian Communities make these ,rguments in a very halfbaked poorly historically researched kind of way. I am very interested in writing for public audiences and i thought this might be something that would be able to help people make sense of this. I went in with a little bit of an ax to grind. I left the project with a much greater appreciation for the role that religion did play, for foundingor bad, in the period. It forced me to say, do these people have a point, these christian right people have a point . Then i suited reading more of the secular then i started reading more of the secular critique, which is sometimes just as bad. Sometimes it is worse. In the flood of books 1990s and 2000, moral minority and american fascist. All of these scathing criticism of the founders being, it was almost like they were all atheists. I was not getting that out of my research either. Greaterped a much purchase appreciation of both sides of this debate. I am not a culture warrior. I find it reprehensible. I want to get people to talk to one another. I hope this book has gotten some people to have a nuanced view on both sides. I am not sure if that has happened or yeah, i learned something about both sides and i especially learned something about the christian right and the role of religion in the period of the founding. To give a more thoughtful answer to those who i was trying to write the book against to begin with. [inaudible] how does this Research Talk about the one nation under god insertion into the pledge . Dr. Fea some of you today were in the politics class. It is important to get some Historical Context behind the idea of one nation under god in the pledge of allegiance. The pledge of allegiance did not originally include the phrase under god. 1950s byed in the the eisenhower administration. Under god was added as a way of distinguishing the United States from those godless communists, if you will, of the soviet union. Americans,er especially from mainline protestant or evangelical congregations, godless communist is one word. To show that we are godfearing people. That is the context behind us. I did not do an extensive review. There is a great book called in which he unpacks this better than i cant standing up here now. Part of the issue is there is this appeal, especially after eisenhowerto had the famous saying, everybody should have a faith or a religion, i do not care what it is. Under god, the context comes from that. I am not aware of any sort of direct appeals to the founding during those debates. But i could be wrong. [inaudible] dr. Fea how do you think about a christian nation as a more fluid concept . After the civil war, you could no longer call the United States a christian nation. That does contradict something i said in the top. Talk. The point is, is there a distinction between having a secular state versus having a culture oristian christian ethos. That is a fair point. Have always understood themselves to be living in a christian nation. After the Supreme Court interpreted the 14th amendment in terms of religion and caseially the famous 1947 in which justice black said there is a wall of separation and United States and that wall is high and impregnable. You could say the Supreme Court has said we are essentially a secular state, right . That does not mean, though, that is 1947. 1950, you have something close to the third great awakening. People flocking to churches, troops coming back from world war ii and joining churches, and you have the rise of people like billy graham, mainline protestantism. Demographically, we remained a Christian Culture. In terms of the official holidays we celebrate and get off of school, they are driven by christian ceremonies and rituals and the christian calendar. We were talking about 1965 and the immigration act where you see large numbers of nonwestern bringing religion. Ian forms of i think it is fair to say if you wanted to define what a christian nation is by the constitution and the relationship between church and state at the highest levels of government, no. But culturally, it lingers for a long time. I think that answers your question. I think we have time for one more question. [inaudible] do you think christianity has had an overall positive or negative effect on america . Dr. Fea i am in a story and. I am an historian. Anybody here could answer that. Anybody here could answer that differently. Depending on their political views or their understanding it is a question donald says, lets make America Great again. Historians are not in the business of declaring whether or not we are interested in again means. What do you mean when you say again . The reagan era or the 1950s . Historians, by their vocation and their calling, are in the business of saying whether or not that was great. I have opinions about whether was great. My africanamerican friends have opinions about whether or not the 1950s was great. My theme friends have opinions on whether or not the founding was great my female friends have opinions on whether or not the founding was great. You could make a compelling case and say, you could make a compelling case on both sides of the question. Ofoughout the course of American History, christianity has been used to do some incredibly positive things and has been the source of incredibly harangued us things. Horrendous things. We could turn to things like slavery, justified by christianity. Punt, sneaked out of that question and say it is above my pay grade. I would like to thank you guys for being a good audience and i would like to thank dr. Fea. [applause] dr. Fea thank you very much. American history tv is marking the 75th anniversary of the japanese attack on pearl harbor throughout this weekend and next. Saturday, September December 10, beginning at 11 00, we will be live to take your calls and war atfor the author of 19411942. Pacific that is live next saturday here on American History tv. Next, National Park Service Ranger lee white talks about Confederate Army of tennessees failed assault at the battle of franklin. After Union General William Sherman captured atlanta, confederate general engaged his rear forces on the way to nashville. He argues that this assault was more devastating to confederates then gettysburg. This talk is about an hour