Transcripts For CSPAN3 PGA 20240703

A front row seat to democracy. Good morning everyone. We will come to order. And i want to thank the witnesses for attending today. I want to thank my colleague, senator johnson, for participating in the invitation to you, and the collaborative approach to this hearing and our inquiry. And to all of our staff for their hard work on the memorandum that we have distributed with documents which i will put into the record without objection. Todays hearing is about much more than the game of golf, it is about how brutal, reclusive regime can buy influence and even take over a cherished american institution. To cleanse its public image. It is a regime that has reportedly killed journalist, jailed and tortured dissidents, fostered the war in yemen and supported other terrorist activities, including the nine 9 11 attack on our nation. Today is about sports but also about hypocrisy, how fast sounds of money can induce individuals and institutions to betray their own values and supporters or perhaps reveal a lack of values from the beginning. It is about other sports institutions that could fall prey if they are leaders let it be, let it be all about the money. Perhaps this to state the obvious, sports are central to our culture and society. They have huge indications for our way life, our local economies and communities. Close to home and our image abroad. Athletes, like the pga tour, golf players are role models. They are ambassadors of our values, and that concern is today are vital to our national interest. To have them taken over by a repressive foreign regime certainly is a matter of National Security. We hope that todays hearing will help us uncover not only the reasons for the pga tour suddenly reversing its opposition to the liv golf takeover and what it means to golf, but also to understand what similar investments by repressive regimes or other countries with deep pockets could mean for our cost. For our National Security. And for the world. For two our National Security and for the world. For two years the most vehement opposition to the saudi governments taking over this sport of golf in america and the most vehement criticisms of saudi sports washing came from the pga tour leaders themselves. They enlisted fans, sponsors, the 9 11 family, members of Congress Like myself, some of those leaders sat across for me at cromwell, connecticut, and asked me to support them. And i did. All on the promise and commitment to maintaining the pga tour as an independent cherished iconic american institution. And jay mott hemp himself, he said in june, just a year before june 6th, i would ask any player that had left or any player that would ever consider leaving. Have you ever had to apologize for being a member of the pga tour, the players admirably and heroically stood by the pga tour and said, no. To tens of millions of dollars. Likewise, members of the 9 11 families were with us and stood by the pga tour. And others of us who did the same. And then suddenly on june 6th, everything changed. The sports world was shocked by the announcement that the pga tour was entering into an agreement to combine forces with the Saudi Arabian Public Investment fund, the saudi sovereign wealth fund, which owns liv golf. It is an instrument of the saudi government. And the deal was not to take over a team, but the entire sport. Not just an individual saudi investor, but the government. The government of saudi arabia. So it was no ordinary investment. The saudi Public Investment fund, node as pit, is closely aligned with the saudi government. And it is headed by who is a negotiator and party to this deal. So, understandably, there was a feeling of betrayal. It was among many of the individuals and groups that supported the pga tour, including from the players themselves. And we are here today because not only did it raise that feeling of betrayal, and jon rahm, familiar, to all of us said it best. The general feeling is that people feel betrayal from management. The future of other sports in the United States, what led the pga tour to change its position . Was it only the hope of ending litigation or was it also unspecified amount of saudi investment that would come of it . How much money did pif offer the pga tour . And what other sources of money were sought . Given these questions and their implications, not only for the future of professional sports but for foreign influence and global human rights, this subcommittee launched an inquiry into this deal. Ive already put into the record the memorandum that we circulated that incorporates the documents that have been produced about some of what weve learned. Clearly, although the agreement itself is seemingly on specific, vacuous and simply an agreement to agree, we know from it that the saudi government will have an equity dominance and ownership of this institution through its investment and we know that the pga tour surrendered once for the saudi investment of money, and there is no assurance in this agreement that it would not do so again. We have learned from the documents some facts that also indicate that the pga tour will be dominated in this agreement. We learned that, after rebuffing, the pif this early as january. The pga Tour Representative reached out to pif leader, after he was told that the saudis would double down on their investment, and quote. We learned that saudi arabias earliest vision for the tour included a teen golf tournament, culminating in saudi arabia. At least one highprofile pga event in saudi arabia and a global Gulf Investment Fund managed by the pif. We learned that one night, one night before the Framework Agreement between the pif and the pga tour was signed, the pif added a non disparagement clause that appears to prevent the pga tour from criticizing saudi arabia. And it applies to the witnesses that are before us, apparently today. We learned that governor al roman will not only become the chairman of the pga tours board, but he will sit on the executive committee of the new company that is to be formed where he will, and this direct quote, from a document we received, quote, provide pif with Strong Influence over the new company. And we learned that what is not in the agreement, which may be as important as what is explicitly there, very little is explicit, that there are potential side agreements and understandings. Only in the internal documents that were reviewed by this committee to be learned that pga tour officials prepared a signed agreement providing that liv ceo, greg norman, would be terminated upon execution of the final agreement. We dont know whether this agreement was executed, but there are other documents such as the talking points that are now in the record for to talk to the policy board that indicate the parties maintained this understanding about terminating norman after the agreement was announced. We still dont know whether there are other side agreements, or other understandings that may exist. Or what they might say. We dont know what assets the pga tour will place on the new entity, or how it will maintain its nonprofit status. Certainly, a profoundly impnt what assets it gained while it had nonprofit status, it may be transferred now to a for profit entity raising a serious questions it ought to concern this committee of congress. And especially since it has indicated that there will be an active commercial role for this new entity. We also dont know what will happen to players who may want to speak out against saudi arabias human rightsabuses. They apparently are bo what the deep pockets of the saudi government and other regimes could mean to the future of our country and the world. With that i will turn to the Ranking Member for his opening remarks. I want to welcome the witnesses and thank you for appearing voluntarily before our subcommittee. Let me say i love the game of golf, i enjoy playing it, i wish i was a lot better. I enjoy watching it. Golfers succeed or fail on their own. Every golfer can empathize with a probe hole thing on that holding onto a oneshot lead to sink a crucial part. Sympathized with the failed attempts. The game of golf has developed a handicap system that has allowed golfers like me, at a lower skill level, to enjoy competing with one another. Its the competition of the highest level that brings us here today. Every professional sport faces the exact same challenges. How you structure and maintain competition to attract large audiences and maximize the revenue base . How you compensate all the athletes do you compensate all the athletes . Many of the rules and practices these leagues engage in may run afoul of the clayton antitrust laws. In researching the legislative history of sports in america, i must agree with the assertion of a 1987 university of ime law review article miami law review article that says the governing relationship between professional sports leagues and the sherman act is confused and unsettled. A simple explanation for this confusion is that it is difficult to write a law that effectively addresses every situation and every reality. This hearing deals specifically with the reality, the pga tour faced when saudi arabia decided to get involved and invest in professional golf. According to its 2021 990 tax form, the pga tour has net assets worth 1. 25 billion. Saudi arabias Public Investment fund is estimated to be worth 600 million and 700 billion, 500 billion dollars more than the pga tour. Until the liv golf, multiple golf tournaments competed in a commercial marketplace, dictated by the commercial market loss and profit. Competing for top players with little, if any regard or expectation of a direct financial return. From a commercial standpoint it is not a fair fight. The pga tour viewed that liv as an existential threat. I have the deepest sympathy for the families of 9 11 and some other efforts of obtaining information being withheld by the saudi governments. I was approached by members of 9 11 families at the hall today, they gave me a document that summarizes the fbis investigation of saudi involvement in 9 11. Like so many documents i received that is heavily redacted. The fbi, the saudi government is not being transformed transparent with the 9 11 families. I want to support the 9 11 families in obtaining transparency and the truth. I would like to enter this document into the record so people can view for themselves the lack of transparency in the government and the saudi government. I may just say i spoke to the 9 11 families about this resistance by our own government, the fbi and other agencies, to provide the fact that are necessary for them simple justice i will join you in a bipartisan effort. I hope that is a bipartisan resort of this hearing. Sports washing is an issue but no amount of money can wash the stain of the brutal fascination and other humans rights abuses. It would be grossly unfair to expect pga tour to bear the burden of Holding Saudi accountable. Anyone who drives a car or uses oilbased products to sell fuels of coppers to the saudi Public Investment fund, for investment is a good thing. I would rather have them reinvest their oil wealth in china than in the u. S. Than china. If the kingdom is involved in the other sports and offers more rights to women wouldnt that be a good thing . Although i believe there are many more pressing issues congress and the subcommittee should be focused on. Like Many Americans i have interest in how this is resolved. Congress does have legitimate roles to play in settling the confusion in the law of governing professional sports. That said, i did not sign the us for information for the memo issued by the majority. Because the parties are in the midst of what should be a private negotiation. There is no deal to review increased investigations conducted by this subcommittee involve some member of wrong some wrongdoing. Theres nothing wrong with the pga tour negotiating a survival. Negotiations are delicate. Mostly private i fear Congress Getting involved in this stage could have negative consequences. I hope this can be constructive and address questions that the public has regarding golf in how to preserve the competition at the highest levels of the game. Although the various parties in this dispute bring different perspectives and objectives to it, my guess is they share a common love and respect for the game of golf, and want to see it succeed in the future. Thank you, mr. Chairman. I look forward your testimony. Thanks very much. Im going to introduce the witnesses. As is our custom, swear you in, and ask you to speak. We will have seven minute round questions, once your testimony is done. We welcome ron price, the chief operating officer at the pga tour. He has been leading the tours operations during the absence of the ceo. By the way, both of you, i hope will convey to the ceo for his continuing recovery. We are happy to learn he will be back later on this month. In the meantime you are representing the pga tour. It mr. Price has been responsible for the overall strategy to the pga tour including overseeing championship management Brand Communication golf course, property legal licensing and merchandising as well as culture , Board Governance and government relations. My understanding is that you join the tour in 1994. Jimmy done is referred to as a legendary dealmaker, served as a member of the pga tour policy board since january of this year. He is one of the chief architects of the pga tour deal that we are discussing today. Your name is repeated in many of the key documents, mr. Dunne. We are glad that you will enlighten us. Some of these questions. He is the vice chairman. He was one of the cofounders of Sandler Oneill and partners lp and independent investment, banking firm, over the past 2. 5 decades he has advised on some of the financial industrys largest acquisition transactions. We welcome you and look forward your testimony. Now, if you would please rise. Do you affirm that the testimony youre about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth so help you god . I do. If you could proceed. Thank you. Chairman blumenthal, Ranking Member johnson and members of the sub midi, thank you for the opportunity russia subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to testify. For the opportunity to testify. When the saudi funded liv golf tour launched its series in 2022, the two are facing unprecedented attack in defending our organization and its regulations. Regulations that each member agrees to at the start of every season. We were forced to suspend players. Both players made the choice to play for liv golf. They could play for the new league but they cannot come back and forth to prewrite free right off the working platform of the collective membership left behind. In august 2022, we were sued in an effort to invalidate our regulations. This created a fracture in golf unlike anything our support had experienced in decades and created a vision in are closely knit organization. We believe we have done everything we could possibly do to defend what we stand for, including spending tens of millions of dollars to defend litigation, instigated by liv golf. Thats significant funds diverted away from our core mission to benefit our layers a players and charity. As part of the litigation, we were successful in securing a court ruling that the Public Investment fund was not protected under sovereign immunity. With respect to the discovery, and potentially liability, that something which had never been done before in the u. S. Meanwhile, we have seen contended strength of the tour, thanks to the loyalty, talent and performance of the remarkable players, we are proud to call members of the pga tour. However, it was very clear to us, and to all who love the pga tour, and the game of golf as a whole that the dispute was undermining both of our sport the growth of our sport and threatening the survival of the pga tour. It was a sustainable unsustainable. Our players, our fans, our partners, our employees, our charities, and the communities we support would lose in the long run. Instead of losing control of the pga tour, we pursued a piece that will not only end the divisive litigation battles, but would also maintain the pga tour structure, mission, and longstanding support for charity. Negotiations toward a definitive agreement are underway, the Framework Agreement includes important safeguards that ensures the two were will operate fundamentally as it does today. The two were will control is on tour will control its operations, the board of the new pga subsidiary, and will be the governing body for competitive golf in connection with any combined golf operations. The agreement provides clear, explicit, and permanent safeguards, that ensure the tour would lead the decisions that shape our future, and that we will help control over our operations, strategy and continuity of our mission. I understand the need for additional clarity, around how and why the deal came together. I welcome the opportunity to shed light on the predicament we found ourselves in. One which we did not seek. One that we could not sustain indefinitely, but one for which we found a workable productive solution that benefits all who love the game of golf and the pga tour. Thank you. I will be happy to answer your questions. Thank you. Mr. Dunne. Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member johnson, members of the subcommittee. My name is jimmy dunne. Since january, i have served as an independent director on the pga tour policy board. To hold that position it is a real privilege fo rme. I joined the board at a time of great concern for those who love golf. Some players left the pga tour to join liv golf, others were under pressure to do the same. The pga tour and liv were facing each other in litigation. There is division attention. You can feel it spreading to fans and sponsors. My concern is that it all continued, expensive legal fights, every day, wondering which player was going to leave next. A fan base tired of hearing that. Sponsors nervous. Golf, as we know it would be damaged forever. As board members, we have a responsibility to protect the game. As the situation appeared to me, the tour had to move towards a solution of the differences that were causing way too much disruption. And we had to do it in a way that preserve the standards, tradition, and authority of the tour. For that to happen, we need to act from a position of strength. We found ourselves in that position in spring of this year. By april, major Court Rulings had set back liv in his litigation on both the tour and europes world tour. It was the right moment to reach out, not only because of those legal victories but also because of the sign will solid financial condition. We knew a longterm fight would be harmful to the players, fans, sponsors and charities. We wanted to begin the negotiation while we were in a strong position, this would allow us to focus on uniting the game or walk away if that objective was not being served. At the direction of the pga tour commission, i contacted livs majority owner and governor of the Investment Fund in saudi arabia. In person meetings followed and these meetings resulted in a Framework Agreement of may 30. As members of this sub video, some agreements are just mutual promises that continue to be negotiated. This describes the framework. The only deal reached in the framework is that the lawsuits among the parties have been settled. Everything else is aspirational. The elements are therefore final agreement that can serve the interest of the players, fans, sponsors and charities and unite the game of golf. See since the june 6 announcement, the tour and the advisors have taken the lead in negotiating final agreements. What i can tell you is the tour will continue to manage the game, retaining majority governing control, majority economic control. The tour will appoint a majority of the board of directors. The framework would not be possible without the clear understanding that the two were will retain full decisionmaking authority. Of course, we expect many questions about who were dealing with. The reality is, because some men from saudi arabia were part of the nightmare of september 11, suspicion has lingered about the complicity of others. For my part, i remember the 66 friends and colleagues at my firm who died that morning, along with others when the towers went down. I think about them all the time. I think about the families, i think about the grief that never ends. If any person has the remotest connection to an attack on our country and the murder of my friends, i am the last guy that would be sitting at a table with. If this agreement ultimately succeeds, i have nothing to gain, except a sense of pride that we helped unite the game we love. Im not in line for a job, a fee, or compensation of any kind. My concern here is to put this divisive period behind us. And for the sake of the players, fans, sponsors and charity, unite the game of golf once again. Thank you. I look forward to your questions. Thinks mr. Dunne. I will begin the questions. Well have senate seven minute rounds as they appear. Both of you are here speaking on behalf of the pga tour, correct . Correct. Mr. Price, you were winning this litigation, correct . Senator, we won some battles with the litigation was far from over. As mr. Dunne had said, you were on top, you were winning. In fact affect, you made the judgment that the cost of proceeding was too high, and the ultimate agreement involved not only settling this litigation, but also a saudi investment in a new one to be created. We faced the choice. One option was to continue the very expensive disruptive and divisive litigation. We faced a real threat that liv golf, which is 100 financed by the kingdom of saudi arabia would become the leader of professional golf. You decided to take the financing and investment, from saudi arabia, for this new entity that would incorporate the pga tour, correct . We have not taken any funding. All we have done is settle the litigation and enter into a Framework Agreement in which the pga tour will be the leader of professional golf. There is an understanding that tif will contribute an investment into the pga tour. They will not be contributing to the pga tour. It will be a pga tour controlled subsidiary. Any funding what is the amount of the saudi investment that will be made . That has not been determined. Has there been a discussion . There has been discussions. It would be a significant amount. What are the amounts . North of one billion. Are there possibilities that additional amounts would be contributed . That is in the complete control of the pga tour. Its a pga tour subsidiary. The board is controlled by the pga tour. They have absolute control over how much funding they have now and in the future. Instead of expending accepting this amount of money, call it investment, financing, from the saudi sovereign wealth fund, did you explore other sources of potential investment . We considered that, senator. Had we gone down that path, fighting the very expensive and disrupt the litigation disruptive litigation. You would have prevailed. That was far from a certainty. Liv golf would have continued to recruit our players and put our tour at jeopardy. They could have become the leader of professional golf and operated for the benefit of the kingdom of saudi arabia. What other sources did you explore . We did not have specific conversations with any outside firm, but we talked about it, as potential and what those terms may be. What conversations among yourself did you have as to the alternative sources of funding . We talked about it at ward meetings, similar to dashboard meetings, similar to what we have ward meetings, similar to what we have set up. Because we would be litigation and still be fighting the Public Investment fund which has 700 billion assets. In the talking once that you prepared for the ceo caprice briefly policy board brief the policy board you indicated that to full make a Financial Investment to become a premier sponsor of the pga tour and other international tours. Tif also is committed to significant financials or towards the pga tour that positively impact the game on a global basis. One of the talking points is greg norman will be reassigned to an advisory role determined by tif, when the pga tour becomes the manager of the liv toward. Mr. Dunne has said that the agreement does not talk about money. There was an understanding about tif investing in the new entity. You may have another name now. That investment, you told us will be more than 1 billion, correct . There has been no agreement reached. There have been discussions in that nature. I would add that one of the things he mentioned about if we reach an agreement that would be important to us, is the Public Investment fund providing funding to support social causes that would provide additional access to the game. Are you bound by the nondisparate clause, which is stated in the agreement . Not in this forum. Not in this forum, but generally . When youre negotiating a business agreement, it is common to have that clause. It may be common, but you are bound by it. Mr. Dunne, as a member of the policy board, you are bound by it as well, correct . Senator, im sitting before the United States senators. You can ask me what you want, i will answer truthfully. Im not questioning that you will. Give us what you believe is the truest to fact. But, my understanding of this clause, you are right mr. Price, it is very common to business agreement, is that it will be binding on you, on other members of the policy board, potentially on the athletes. Indeed the liv requirements for their players. They have a similar bar to any of them saying anything negative about any relevant person, including members of the pif governing apparatus. So, im going to end my questioning now. For this round. But, i would like to have a commitment from both of you that the final agreement will not prevent players or pga tour executives from commenting on or criticizing actions of the kingdom of saudi arabia. Will you make that commitment . It will be an objective we would seek. I would add that the Framework Agreement does not prevent our players from speaking their mind on any matters. It does it now, but you cannot commit that the final agreement will not require them to avoid any such disparaging statement . We do not anticipate having that. Will you commit that it will not happen and you will not agree. I would not recommend it to the policy board for approval. Mr. Dunne . Im not doing the negotiation, but as ron said, he would not recommend it. I will inform the entire board of your excellent point. Ill guarantee you, the board will vote on it. I dont have the power to decide that. But we hear you, we understand, and i will advocate for it. If we get to agreement, that disparagement, that is basically to the term of the agreement. So, you generally dont want to be saying bad things about each other when youre negotiating. But it has a shortterm life on it. I will turn to this line of questioning. I would like to lay out the reality that you are faced with. First of all, you had been would not have been seeking large additional funding or large funding had it not been for the pif entering the scene . Youre always seeking resources, but, it is only because of what the kingdom did, correct . That is correct. Its only because of that that we are sitting here today. Youre dealing with an entity that is five times larger than your. Who is roger devlin . I have never met a roger devlin. He emailed me. He is a member in england. He works in an. Investment banking capacityhe emailed me a couple of times about possible discussions about getting together. I believe he helped saudi arabia invest in a soccer team. I believe his partner is one of the coinvestors with yasser. If you had a relationship with saudi. He does. He reached out in january saying the time may be right to sit down and try to repair the breach. You rebuffed him. You are not ready for it then. Is that a fair statement . If i may answer, senator, my attitude was all of the people, other than the guy with the money, we should not talk to. We should just get to the spiritual leader and because everything that was happening did not make any sense to me. So, i did not want to waste any time talking to anybody. My advice to the commissioner was, dont waste any time talking to anybody other than the guy with the money. Who is the guy with the money . The governor. Ok. On april 14, 2023, mr. Devlin emailed you and the final line in his email states, i fear the saudis will double down on their investment and golf will be split asunder in perpetuity. I read that. I recognized what reality pj was facing. Tga was facing. Does test test test test test test test test test ke fiv players a year, in five years, they can got us. The pga was facing an eccentric role an existential threat because of pif and liv. Now, you agreed to reach out to yasser. What did you make of the men . What was his motivation . I realize you cannot get inside his head, but can you describe for us, why where the saudis doing this . Why was yasser doing this . Obviously, im not inside his head, but my perception, as i said, i told the commissioner that you should send someone only to speak to him. In april, he chose to reach out to him. I went out to meet him. Unlike everyone else that is involved with liv, they are very acrimonious towards the pga tour, he said he respected the tour, how they did things. I was surprised by that. He did not have the attitude that frankly a lot of the management people had. So, i thought, it might make sense to put the man with the money and are commissioner together for another meeting. Describe the challenge you have as a pga. Top players, compensating everybody, and attracting top players to come to tournaments, which is what you need to get the tv deals, the viewership, the sponsorship. Talk about the challenge in general of managing pga tour golf. Either one of you. We represent all the players. So, our process, we have to go through is allocating resources, that players earn through competition. We are performancebased, appear we are performancebased. We try to balance the allocation of resources among our top layers and the ones performing at a top level on a regular basis while maintaining earnings opportunities for all of our players. The players who are performing well, our top players, those are the ones the fans are interested in. Fans tune in to watch. They drive our primary revenue streams. Media and sponsorship. To the extent that liv golf has been successful in taking away some of our top players, through the irrational business model, that puts pressure on our ability to maintain our primary revenue sources. If they continue to do that, we would have faced an existential threat. Mr. Dunne, you have done a lot of deals. Ive done a lot of negotiations myself but ive never had to do them in public. I want to emphasize for the committee, you dont have a deal. You ended the litigation, which took a big liability off your late plate. Ive been involved enough litigation that you never know the results. It is always a big risk. Talk about how difficult it is for the pga to have all of this information exposed. Negotiations are rejected. Even the idea being made public does not help. Describe how difficult it will be to conclude the deal. It makes it very complicated. I agree, you generally dont negotiate a deal in public. But, we are committed to try to move from a Framework Agreement to a definitive agreement. We believe that would allow us to continue our leadership and professional in professional golf and tournaments to be operated in accordance with our mission, and our standards for our players and charity. We think that is important. Each proceedings make that more difficult. Mr. Price, we spoke over the phone, i read the framework, which immediately got leaked. It struck me as, this is kind of a winwin situation for the artese involved parties involved. Saudi got a seat at the table in terms of golf. Pga retained its control over the game, the competition. Mr. Dunne, can you speak to this . In any negotiation, what you want at the end is a winwin for everyone, seek and move forward successfully as opposed to destructive behavior. Senator, that is the goal. I really understand senators concern about not having them take over. That is the last thing we want. I think to this agreement, we can get a winwin situation. My fear is if we dont get to an agreement, they were already putting billions of dollars into golf. They have a Management Team wanting to destroy the tour. Even though you can say take five or six players a year, they have an unlimited horizon and an unlimited amount of money. It is not like the product is better, its just that there is a lot more money that will make people move. I am concerned with exactly what the senator is worried about. Im more concerned that if we do nothing they will end up there. They can do it. Its that big. Its only a couple hundred players. I sympathize with position youre both in the position youre both in. I will try to be quick, both for respect of other members, but also the presenting officer ship in a few minutes. I cant help but observe that there is a lot of conversation about what this means from the pga leaderships perspective. This could potentially what this could potentially mean for a pif perspective. I dont hear a lot of conversation about the players. The players performance drives the game, the fan base, its the players performance that drives the revenue. I want to take a moment to focus on the players. They need to do right by them it is forthe players performance that drives the revenues and we want to do that so the agreement can be concluded and we know prior to the framework that was announced, pga tour officials were highly critical of this. And those who chose to join liv and in fact i understand the tour suspended at least 24 players who participated in liv events and they became ineligible to participate in pj tour tournaments and then officials turned around and did exactly the same thing criticizing some players leaving those who choose to remain loyal to the pga and for significant financial benefits of joining liv , understandably wondering what was the point of remaining loyal to the pga. So, mr. Dunne, can you tell me players who remain loyal to the pga be made whole . Will they be eligible for a form of damages . It is not just the forgone income that was a real pain, but their reputations even have taken a hit and can you explain to me how players will be made good should this agreement go through . Shortly. I will answer, but ron is doing the negotiation. Thank you for your question, senator. Nothing will happen without the players fully supporting it and we have five play representatives on the policy board. I cant imagine the circumstance where i wont be voting with the majority of them. And i do have to emphasize that we negotiated the settlement of the lawsuit in complete secrecy because of the fear that a lot of people make a lot of money in these lawsuits, especially the other sides lawyers. So if that got out it wouldve never gotten that to fruition and all we have done and it is a two stage negotiation and a little bit of what the senator was talking about and the first part is the lawsuit settles and the tour has to be in charge and we agreed to talk and now we are talking with complete transparency. So the players will have to get something that they appreciate for staying on the tour. I hear you. And you add in the dimension for the new players that are now eligible to complete in the pj because there was a handful but what happens to them after this merger if it goes through . We have two task forces in place and we are working with the player directors because we are a Membership Organization and that is who we represent and the first task force is evaluating ways in which we can recognize the players who do remain loyal to the pga tour and that is important to us and we wont move forward with a definitive agreement unless we get that right and for players who left the tour to play for liv, they were suspended. If they come back they wont be playing for liv but they will be playing for a pga tour controlled sports league. They will have to go through the existing rules and regulation process to gain reentry. Instead of asking additional questions i will state a concern for the record and we will follow up in future conversations. But during the 2023 season they pulled a bait and switch from what i understand and its Television Broadcast Tech Missions are represented by the Theatrical Stage Employees Union and when they switch to a nonunion Production Company and making the technicians behind the liv golf production making it one of the few major sports who didnt receive any help or Retirement Benefits while providing coverage so my first question is about the player specifically and please know i am interested in the treatment and fairness of all employees that make golf revenues including but not limited to significant broadcast revenues possible and not just as players but in the broadcast production, et cetera. So another area we will be following up on. Thank you. I have been a vocal critic of the saudis for years and let the efforts to block billions in arms sales to saudi arabia and they have demonstrated a relentless pattern of malign behavior ranging from brutal killing and dismemberment of people within their conflict for which they evaded punishment and their consistent disregard for human rights is well known and additionally they have created war crimes in yemen and a war for which american taxpayers are being used as unwitting accomplishments resulted in casualties from the ruthless actions nevertheless i see no constitutional power that suggests congress should involve itself in golf and some will argue that the tax code and somewhere in the Commerce Clause is the power to regulate private agreements but i disagree and as an original list and the interpretation of the constitution would lead to a different conclusion if we took the ninth amendment seriously and the principles of liberty and contract seriously, we would acknowledge that the constitution affords protection for such agreements and we have no business asking the pj about the negotiations or what they might do. It is not the business of government and if members of the senate wanted to express their outrage over saudi arabia in a meaningful way, i gave them an opportunity to do so. In december 2021 i propose canceling 650 million sale of 280 advanced air to air missiles and 596 missile launchers to saudi arabia. There was no congressional hearing. We are here today talking about golf, but we didnt have one hearing over sending hundreds of millions of dollars of advanced weapons to saudi arabia. There was no expression of outrage. Instead 67 senators voted against my proposal and voted to continue selling arms to saudi arabia. It is time that congress rediscovers the presumption of liberty. That the first recourse is to defend the unenumerated rights of private actors and not to expand the few and defined powers to regulate anything we may personally dislike. And as a member of this institution, i find no grounds for government to be involved in the game of golf. But are there legitimate questions and could we have legitimate hearings on things we are discussing . Of course. Did the 9 11 victims have a legal obligation owed to them by the Saudi Arabian government . It is a real question. Should we be involved with selling arms to saudi arabia . It is a real question and we should have votes on these things and should we be involved in the war in yemen . Nobody ever voted to go to war and why are we involved . Furthermore, with regard to sports, there is a valid discussion that should be going on. We should have a discussion of the antitrust involvement in sports. I think like most antitrust, it is topsyturvy and flipped upside down and doing the wrong thing. Pj mentioned they have rules. You join the pj and you obey the rules to be part of it and if you dont they should have the right to exclude you and that is what associations are about. The court has screwed this up in congress have let them. The court ruled unanimously that the ncaa cant invoke their rule so they completely screwed up College Athletes and we used to be proud and many of us loved watching amateur athletes that werent paid and now everybody that plays basketball will be trying to drive a bentley or roles royce and we will see rap stars and basketball stars. This is crazy. It happened because congress sat around and said because of antitrust we cant let the ncaa do it. The court did make a ruling unanimously based on the law. The law has to change. Antitrust shouldnt be involved with associations, pga or ncaa. For the most part antitrust actually does the opposite of what it is intended to do and i will give you another example. As a physician, if five doctors get together and say we dont like blue cross paying is 80 and we want to get 100 in exams from blue cross or united or humana or some billion dollar company, do you know what antitrust does, it sues five doctors and says he cant talk about this. It is ridiculous. It is protecting the big people versus the small people. But it is a unique situation to talk about associations and particularly sports. You dont have to join pga and you dont have to join those associations but you can be outside of it but the only way they have power is because they had the power of a large body and there was prestige and being part of it and all of that is gone and nobody knows what is going to happen with College Sports and nobody is happy about it. As somebody who grew up in a sport that wasnt one well remunerated i understand trying to allow contracts and there were some in betweens for summers and they dont really have professional sports but at the same time there was a way to probably do this that could have been done through the ncaa but the courts got into it and congress sat by and watched. There are legitimate concerns that we could look into as congress. But i dont think it is a legitimate concern to be rate private individuals or get involved in what will you do . Do you promise me the contract wont do this . That is in the role of government to say to people you cant do this. In a free country and make contracts and they are the Business People making contracts in government should be involved. I see a certain legitimacy of the whole proceeding today and valid questions about saudi arabia that should be addressed but we are not addressing the ballot things because we have a showed trial of a private organization. Thank you and i will take the prerogative of the chair to address at least the legal issue you raised in the constitutional question that congress has authority to investigate here and investigate golf comes from article 1 section 8 of the constitution, which gives us the power to lay and collect taxes and regulate and therefore investigate interstate commerce. I dont need to tell anybody in this room that golf is a 100 billion industry and mr. Dunne himself has referred to the billions of dollars , 3. 6 million, i believe, that the pga tour has provided the charity in my own state and the travelers championship brings 60 million to my state annually and millions of dollars to local charities and the pga tour has a major impact on our economy and way of life, our image in this country and with our image abroad. The pj tour derives tremendous benefits from tax laws established by congress because it operates as a 501c6 nonfor profit entity and that provision of law has received little scrutiny and this inquiry may lead to close scrutiny of 501 c six and a study conducted in 2013 found this benefit was worth at least 200 million to the tour between 1993 and 2013 and congress has a long history of conduct thing oversight on matters related to sports and i participated in a number of them involving the ncaa and Domestic Violence in the nfl, doping in Major League Baseball and Sexual Assault in womens gymnastics and anticompetitive practices in multiple sports. But most importantly as i said in my opening remarks, this hearing and our investigation is ultimately not about golf. We are here because we are concerned about the pga tour steel deal in terms of what it means foran authoritarian government to use its wealth to capture american institutions and capture american institutions because we are an open society. I have joined sen. Paul in many of his amendments and advocacy involving the saudi government and i appreciate much of what he has said about it. But i do think there is not only a legitimate role here but an imperative role for this committee and the United States government. Point of inquiry. Yes. Nothing in article 1 section 8 of the constitution allows congress to intervene or involve itself in private contractual negotiations. If that is an inquiry, the answer is nothing explicitly authorizes intervention, but as you well know, antitrust law and Consumer Protection law and many other laws involve protection of Public Interest an individual interest because the Public Interest demands it. I didnt participate and i have to go to another hearing but thank you for being here and you are a great Florida Company and as you know, golf is important to our economy. I cant imagine doing what youre doing negotiating a deal when you have cameras in front of you and my prior life was negotiating deals and doing deals and it is very difficult to get a deal done that way so i think it is frustrating. Can you talk about just taking a state like florida, the importance of what golf is doing from a charity standpoint and building a global brand and how important golf has become to this country. Sure. I will be happy to speak on that and happy to tell you that in addition to the pga tour being headquartered in florida and the flagship Tournament Club sawgrass being there, we conduct 10 tournaments in your state and those generate over 30 million for charity annually and cumulatively the tournaments have generated over 800 million for charity and the annual Economic Impact in florida is over 800 million and those type of things are those we are trying to protect and our ability to do that and if we can move from a Framework Agreement to a definitive agreement in which the pga tour has absolute control, we can continue to do that and we will be able to expand our Economic Impact in florida and across the nation and we are in 34 states and we have an Economic Impact of over 4 billion and we think we can grow that significantly if we can reach that agreement. Thank you, senator scott. I think golf is a form of good and i think people know each other and play golf, i think it would solve a lot of problems. I think to the degree that it is a global game, it is incumbent on all of us to try to reach out and avoid things and may be there is a possibility of meeting people with different faiths and religions and colors that we can get to know better and have a better world. That is how i look at it. Thank you. Good luck. Senator marshall. Thank you and welcome to our guests. When i think about life at this level, typically motivations are sex, money, or power. As we look at this merger, i am trying to figure out why and where is the money and where is the power so i will start with you, mr. Price. Who is losing out on money and power in the steel . Thank you, senator. And so, we had two options. One was being in a situation of where we faced a threat of professional golf and being taken over by liv golf which is 100 funded by the public and the second option is for the pga tour to continue to lead professional golf operating in accordance specifically who will be making less money and will have less power because of this merger . Somebody is losing out and i am assuming that is why we are here today. I would describe it is a situation where the tour stays in the same position it is in and our players and our Charities Win and i dont know that anybody is losing and i do think it benefits there are no individuals losing because of this financially . No. Because we are healing a fracture in professional golf. The same question for you i guess is who is losing out and who is the loser in this and who is losing money or power . It is a very good question, senator. The tour of golf is the winner because we continue to uphold the standards and traditions of the meritocracy in professional golf is hard. You have to really work hard. It is fragile. In your opinion, there is no private investors. I dont understand the complexity of your nonprofit organization, but there are no individuals that are losing money because of this . You dont think . No individuals losing any power . The lawyers will lose money, absolutely because that is 100 million a year between everybody. Who has the most to gain from a power and financially and with power . s i am sorry. You are asking me . Yes. I think the pga tour definitely stays intact and becomes more powerful. I hope that in a more constructive way that yasir gets a more productive role in the game of golf because i think the pga tour product is vastly superior and that is my opinion. Thank you. Who do you think gains the most from this financially . Thank you. I firmly believe it is the pga tours constituents and players and fans and sponsors and charity all clearly win under the Framework Agreement if we can reach a tentative agreement. I am sure this has been asked earlier on another committee but as a review this document provided, a lot of this was done in the dark of the night. And i think some of your own numbers were even surprised when they saw this deal put together. So what was your reaction . Were you on the inside when all of this was happening . I dont recall. Yes. I had originally reached out. How did some of your friends and long term members react to you personally . It is twofold. They were stunned. The rollout was misleading and inaccurate, which was everyones fault and there is no merger or deal and simply an agreement to try to get to an agreement. And settle lawsuits. So you had an initial search of anxiety due to the ineffective and inaccurate rollout and now it is settling in there is nothing there yet. We have the reality of having to try to figure out something, which is done in unbelievable transparency. There is an issue about sometimes too many cooks in the kitchen but in this case everybody in the world is in the kitchen. It will be difficult. We will work hard at it. Thank you for that answer. Today we are here on the subcommittee on investigation of the United States senate and the committee on homeland security. And trying to figure out why this issue was raised to this level and i have to tell you nobody back home has asked me what does the senate think about this merger. At the same time every day some he asks me why are we Funding Research in wuhan, china. They asked me why is the cdc now pushing a medication that isnt safe to be used to help biological men make a milk like substance and the cdc in direct contradiction to the fda. They asked me about the president s son and are concerned they are running a criminal enterprise at the white house and more questions and answers on the cocaine found in the white house and those of the questions that people ask me about like why are we investigating them. I dont see how any of this is prudent to the daily lives of american working families were paying twice as much for groceries and gasoline than they were a few years ago. Many of you said the organization is their way of sports watching and i want to dig deeper into that and what was china doing when they hosted the olympics a few years ago but sports watching . Trying to wash the enslavement of hundreds of thousands of perhaps millions of muslims and trying to sports wash their purchase of United States farmland acres and wash their research into bioterrorism weapons . Why are we not investigating those issues and why arent we investigating the 90 of counterfeits in this country made in china or 90 of the fentanyl made in china or intellectual property . Those are the things we should be investigating and the things that the people in my state wants to know and i look forward to the day when we have honest discussions and our investigation investigates our own outofcontrol bureaucracy that affects the American People and i have no further questions but i want to wish the very best of success to Gary Woodland and we are very proud of him. Thank you so much. Thank you very much, mr. Chairman and to the witnesses and i think i heard you testify to the chairman a little bit ago that you may take 1 billion or more from the saudis and lets take and talk about the money that youve taken from communist china and what can you tell us about the pga tour . The china series . The pga tour china series was last operated in 2019 and we have not operated since then and we have no plan to continue. You dont have a tour in china at all right now . We dont. What about the pga china tour and lets look at the quote here from greg julian it is truly thrilled to be partnering with shanghai sports on the pga tour series china and it is a worldclass organization and a great experience of connect thing expectation of sports bodies with an understanding of the Chinese Market and this isnt happening . I am not sure what the date on that is that we have not conduct pga tour since 2019. You just signed a 20 Year Agreement to conduct a tour series in china, correct . It is not been conducted since 2019. Did you take 45 million in financing to conduct pga tour china . We didnt. Your spokesperson said it is owned and operated by the pga tour and supported by the General Administration of sports of china and the China Golf Association and you are saying this doesnt exist anymore . When was it shut down . It hasnt operated since 2019. Did you return the money . We were not paid 45 million and i dont recall the specific details of the agreement. We received a sanctioning fee as i recall for the series of events and there was an operator who operated the events. So you are saying you dont know anything about this . I didnt say that. I just said it hasnt been operated since 2019 and i dont recall the specifics of the agreement, but i can get those to you. I know the specifics. The private equity firm financed it with 45 Million Investment that the capital firm has directed out of the communist party and does that concern you . It concerns me. Senator, we are not operating there anymore. I believe i can get the details but that money went directly to an operator in china and not the pga tour. It was a deal between the pga tour in a Chinese Company to do a series and you admit that happened a few years ago . They did happen for a series of years. You are saying you wont do any for the business with china and no contracts with them and wont operate pga events in china . We have no plans to consider that or continue that series at any point in time. You wont do anything in china . We have no present plans to do this. Has the pga given your past business relationships with chinese entities, have you taken a stance on the weaker concentration camps and condemned the genocide there . We firmly support human rights, senator. We are concerned about what has happened there. We leave those matters to our us government. We certainly dont condone that activity. When you say you leave that to the United States government, i am asking you, will you speak out against the persecution and internment of leaders in china and you have done business in china and you conducted tour events in china and accepted money from chinese entities and some form a partnership. To you condemn the concentration camps that currently as we speak our imprisoning religious minorities in that nation . We dont condone or support that activity. Yes, sir. Lets talk about your lobbying activity as it relates to the saudi deal and public reports say you paid lobbyists last year in just one quarter of the year six figures or more as to Lobby Congress on the golf League Proposal and what was that related to . We went to members of congress as we faced a threat to our existence to make them aware of what the Public Investment fund was attempting to do through its operations of the liv golf series. So make congress aware and ask for what . What did you want this body to do . Anything that congress could do to help preserve an american institution. This is before you agree to take 1 billion from the same people you are lobbying against a year ago . We faced a choice. One was to allow professional golf to be taken over and operated by the Public Investment fund and the king of saudi arabia and the second was to allow the tour to lead it and in accordance with our mission and values for the benefit of our players and charity. Let me come back to this issue with the pga tour china series and why didnt you disclose your activities in partnership with the Shanghai Group and why didnt you disclose that on your form and you are a Tax Exempt Organization . 501 c 6 . You have to file a form 990 . Yes. It contains a schedule letter f and it requires you to disclose any activities conducted overseas including unrelated trade or business programs, services, fundraising activities, investments or maintaining offices, employees or agents for the purpose of conducting any such activities . And your form didnt disclose anything related to your dealings in china . Why not . The intention is to comply with all of the Disclosure Requirements on form 990 and if there is a requirement that we should have made but didnt, we will get that corrected. Were you papering over what you had done in china and your partnership with these entities . Absolutely not. Thank you. We will begin a second round of questions if any of our colleagues arrive in the meantime and also we are scheduled to have a vote at 11 30. At some point we may have to take a brief recess and i do want to come back to the disparagement issue and the non disparagement agreement and so everybody understands, i do get it that you dont feel you have a deal. But the litigation is gone. Right . Yes. It is history. So whatever threat liv golf represents to you, it is no longer the cost of litigation. Tomorrow, you can go to an ipo or go to private equity funders. You could go to the players if they wanted to own as well as the members of the pga tour. You do have a lot of options right now, correct . If we chose one of those options, we would still be facing a real threat that liv golf and the 700 billion Public Investment fund would continue to recruit our top players. What, mr. Price, players have stood by you. Mr. Dunne himself and i want to hold up this quote, which i think is so powerful talking about tiger woods and the offer of 700 million. It takes a lot to say no to a bucket full of money. These players who stood by you are heroes and they deserve our thanks. I am betting because i never want to bet against america that america will be on your side thick or thin and do you agree . Senator, it is and excellence line of questioning and thank you for racing it and we are contractually obligated to try to see if we can come to a deal that makes sense and we will meet all of our obligations as senator johnson and senator marshall pointed out and in this massive transparency it will make things difficult and if it ends up we dont get to an agreement which is possible, liv golf will still be there and they will still have a lot of money and we will have to do all of the things youre talking about. You still have the choice to stand up against sports washing and against the saudi monarchy and against hundreds of billions of dollars and maybe a lot more that they will throw at you and stand up for america because america will stand up for you and maybe you are contractually bound to give it its best effort to reach an agreement. But there is something that stinks about this path that you are on right now because it is a surrender in all about the money and that is the reason for the backlash that you have seen, mr. Price. And the Equity Ownership interest that the saudis will have give them financial dominance and they control the Purse Strings and you may say that your objective is to prevent a nondisparagement clause but as i read the disparagement clause or the non disparagement clause in this agreement each one agrees and covenants that it wont at any time directly or indirectly make or publisher communicate to any person or entity or in any public form any disparaging remarks or comments or statements concerning the other party and their affiliates and ultimate the Beneficial Owners or respected businesses directors employees or officers or shareholders or members or advisors and that is as broad a nondisparagement clause i have ever seen and i have been a Law Enforcement enforcer in my job in my state as a private litigator in attorney and in 2019 the general manager of the Houston Rockets tweeted support for hong kong and the nba stood by him even though china impose significant economic costs on the nba in an attempt to get the league to suppress his speech and will you commit today that the pga tour wont punish any members who criticize the kingdom of saudi arabia or human rights anywhere regardless of this new relationship with pif . Can you commit to the final agreement and yet the pga tour wont punish anyone for criticism of anybody in saudi arabia . Thank you, senator. I can tell you that the Framework Agreement, the players are absolutely free to speak their mind without any cause you may want to check with the governor because you are a Membership Organization. Your commitment is on behalf of that organization and the athletes are members of it and you dont have to be a legal scholar to know that there is potential liability here. Our position is that the players are free to speak their mind under that agreement and that is how we interpret it. Will you commit to protect player expression or go to court if necessary . To sue pif or anybody who tries to inhibit their speech . We are a Membership Organization. We always take our player interests very importantly and we would try to protect our interests. The answer to that question should be yes and we will do it proudly. We will protect our players. We will protect our players proudly. You asked me about the definitive agreement and we wouldnt recommend any definitive agreement to the board for approval that had such a clause in it. That is less than what i would like to see is a commitment here and let me turn to some of the other questions that were raised and by the way the agreement that has been put in the public realm is the result of your disclosing it, correct . Yes. It is not like we infringed on the privacy of your negotiations . You disclosed that voluntarily . It was disclosed to this committee and we disclosed it. If i could add another thing with regard to i think there may not be a clear understanding with regard to control. We wont and do not have an agreement now and we only have a Framework Agreement and we wouldnt move to a definitive agreement unless the pga tour is in complete control of the new entity which will be a pga tour subsidiary controlled by the pga tour board and operated for the benefit of all of our constituents and our players and fans and sponsors and charities and if that is not where we end up we wont even recommend approval much less the board wouldnt approve that. I am not here to argue with you or parse the terms of the agreement. The simple fact is that the saudi government is the dominant owner and has the equity interest and controls the Purse Strings. It has the money. The money is the reason you surrender in this agreement. The money will be there Going Forward and 1 billion is just the beginning. I think the American People can see through some of what you may be stating with the best of intentions and let me follow up on this question. When you commit you will have no pga tour events in china Going Forward . I am not in a position to commit the tour indefinitely, but we dont have anything planned for the foreseeable future. That will depend on what the new entity decides . The pga tour has full control over that and determine its schedule and where the tournaments are located or otherwise we wouldnt approve recommend approval. Will you commit to having no pga tour events in russia . I cant commit the pga tour for the longterm, we dont have any plans to conduct any events in russia. What are the current assets of the pga tour . The total assets are about 3 billion. And net assets senator johnson referenced 1. 3 billion. I am sorry which . The gross assets are approximately 3 billion and the net assets are approximately 1. 3 billion. I have a breakdown for 2021 of the revenue and maybe we can put that chart up and the tour brought in over 1. 5 billion in revenue in 2021 and less than 3 of that 43,600,000 was expensed as charitable grants and i dont mean to minimize that amount because it is a lot of money but my question is where did the rest of it go . The rest of the revenue wouldve been in the costs to produce the revenue and the largest cost is what we pay our players who compete for prize money for our competitive tournaments. How much went to the players . I would have to check but in 2021 i can tell you that in 2023 we will distribute almost 1 billion to our players. Out of how much revenue . The Gross Revenue in 2023 are approximately 2. 1 billion. Would it be fair to say that the remainder of that amount goes to produce the tournaments . It is the cost to produce and the tournament is the cost of generating revenue and there is charity distributed also. If i could add just for clarification, we are a 501 c 6 membership or trade association and our mission is to generate Economic Opportunities for our players. We have voluntarily structured our tournaments in a way so that the net proceeds of our tournaments go to charity. In addition to what you had on that chart, there are tournaments who are given their net proceeds to tournaments because we partner with 3 organizations and that has we generated that last year. You own a number of tournaments like the travelers in connecticut. Correct . We partner with a 3 organization that conducts that tournament. You partner with them but who owns the tournament . We conduct the competition but the local Charity Organization that we work with in hartford sells the tickets and the hospitality and sponsorship and the net proceeds they generate which are annually i think in the approximately 2 million goes back to charity the local hartford community. If this litigation is ended and your revenue is almost 3 billion a year, why do you need the billion dollars of the saudis cut s we didnt seek the saudis. We were in a situation where we faced a real threat. But you could go elsewhere for bin rs or 3 billion or maybe 50 billion, correct . We could. But if we went down that path we would have given up total control of the pga tour and in this situation, not only did we preserve the tours future leadership you could insist on the same requirements for independence on the tour that you are insisting on, you say from the saudis saudis . We would still face the threat of a 700 billion fund recruiting our players and operating a leak in a rational economic manner. Again, i can only emphasize to you, mr. Price, that your players, like tiger woods, gave up hundreds of millions of dollars and they stood strong and i hope the pga tour will as well and i may have more questions. And my apologies to my colleagues and i will turn to senator johnson. I dont think it is appropriate to be asking these representatives of the pga to make assurances in terms of what they will and wont do and obviously they have to assure us they will follow the law but exact the how they operate, they are a private organization and they have deals of a complex set of issues in terms of running a league for the benefit of their players and i would say for fans and things have gotten muddled and first of all the pga never would have thought additional funding because he didnt need it and the only reason you are looking for funding is an accommodation for pif to have a seat at the table in running golf and if you dont offer them that seat they will take their money or a portion of that and they will keep picking off players one by one until they destroy the game of golf in the highest competitive level and isnt that how you see it . Thank you, senator. It is very important and we didnt decide one day we will go over and bring these guys here. You are highly reluctant to reach out to them. We got to the table because of the existence of liv. They own 100 of it and they have billions of dollars in liv and they have no economic constraint or time constraint. When you deal with a normal investor, they want to have a return quickly and they have a long horizon and i dont know their process but they view it differently. They sued us and we didnt decide to sue them. They took our players and their entire existence is based on taking more of our players. That is the reality and we arent complaining about that. That is what it is. You would be justified first of all in complaining about it and you faced an existential threat and you have faced this for two years and engaged litigation to spend about 50 million trying to defend yourself and all of a sudden there is a way out of this and there is a truth because of some Favorable Court hearings or rulings but there is no guarantee that you will continue to win those. You could have lost. I will answer senator marshalls question about what i know. It seems like you have achieved in a bad situation between a rock and hard place you carved out a win win situation and its not to speak about the sports washing aspect and the concerns but if anybody has a concern of what happened on 9 11, it is you and you lost 40 of your colleagues and your mentor in this. So we need to recognize the reality that you face and still face and there is no deal or guarantee you will have a deal and if you dont get a deal you will have the saudis spending billions and billions and the pga players will say this isnt going away and i am a chump for not accepting 10 million or 50 million to go over to this league and they will leave the pga tour behind and now, rather than playing for the purity of the competition for the title. So like i make 10 million just by showing up and that destroys the game of golf and that is my perspective. Can you tell me where i am wrong or where i am negotiate s and their motivations are pure and they are trying to preserve this game and do right by their players and give them the space to negotiate a deal and if we have a problem we can come back and look at it later and you have any comments on that . I agree with what you said and we are trying to negotiate a deal that preserves our leadership role in professional golf so we can fulfill our mission for our players and if we cant do that we will recommend a definitive agreement for approval. They will keep pouring billions of this and they will at some point in time say i have to provide for a family and you talk to me in my office. In golf you are a few bad swings away from losing the confidence to compete at that high level and it is pretty tenuous and all of a sudden a deal could be pretty attractive with liv. There is no denying that and some players who have went have expressed that and it is hard and professional golf is hard. If we are able to get to an agreement, and candidly, i appreciate the senators concerns. We all do. With that good guidance it will help us in the negotiation, what is important or not but if we get to an agreement the players that stayed, we will do everything we can to them and everything we can for the game and everything for the sponsors and charities. That is what we are trying to do. Again, i appreciate your challenge and what youre up against. I wish you the best of luck. Thank you. I do have a number of responses, but in the interest of deference to my colleagues who are waiting to ask questions, i will turn to this question. Thank you for bringing us together and it is good to see you and thank you for your time and input. As the former chairman of the committee, and the Ranking Member of the subcommittee here today, i hope this is a first of a number of hearings that will provide her colleagues an opportunity to Work Together on a range of issues that will benefit the American People. Again we do thank you for joining us in an effort to shine some light on a topic that has generated a whole lot of interest and not just from congressman but sports fans and concerned citizens here at home and probably beyond our borders. The proposed Framework Agreement between these of the Public Investment fund is a complex issue that will likely impact the game of professional golf for a long time and maybe decades to come and may set a precedent for other professional sports and leagues here in the United States. I am aware that there are probably more questions at this early stage, but i am glad we had an opportunity to start asking those questions today. I do go back and forth on the train most nights and it is an easy train ride. We often times, she will say, what are you working on today and at the end of the day, what happened . She will ask me, i am sure when i get home tonight, what did you work on today . She is from North Carolina and i was born in West Virginia. And it is an unlikely place to have an interest in golf, i would say but there was a golfer there who before there was Jack Nicholas in Arnold Palmer and in the state of West Virginia where my sister and i were born and later we lived in a place called danville, virginia. My dad would take me with him not to play golf but to be a caddy and i would get to do that and make a few dollars. One day, one of the four some didnt show up in my dad said how would you like to play golf and i was like 12 years old. And i got to use his clubs and they were as tall as i was. He made me count every stroke and they shot that day 8 to 14. But i was encouraged by my dad and the others playing golf that day and they thought they may have set some kind of record but the next time i played i cut 65 strokes off my score and i could only do better. And the four some including my dad and i was marked for greatness and second to sammys need it wasnt to happen but i enjoy the game of golf and they know that you love the game of golf as well and i think you can be proud of the values and in your testimony i think you both state the tour has contributed millions of dollars to charities local including in wilmington, delaware which hosted last year the bmw championship and i know on the pga side we hosted for many years the latest championship in delaware and raised a lot of money for a good cause there in our state as well. I am told that the Evans Scholar Foundation in delaware which provides tuition and Housing Assistance for low Income College Students who work as caddies and they received this additional funding thanks to the effort we are talking about here today and i am grateful for the support your organization has lent to our state and countless others and having said that i am concerned, as i am sure you are that the human rights record of saudi arabia runs counter to the tours stated values of inclusion and respect and my question, and as a result, maybe one question for both of you. What are you concerned that the proposed Framework Agreement will provide the Saudi Arabian government the opportunity to hide its human rights record behind the tours values . And i know i think our chairman, senator blumenthal may have touched on this issue earlier during the hearing but if the proposed Framework Agreement becomes finalized and can you tell us that the torah and its players will speak freely about the human rights record of saudi arabia . I can tell you that if we move from a Framework Agreement from a definitive agreement, the players will be freely able to speak about saudi arabia and the pga tour fully supports human rights. In complete control, and our tournaments continue to be operated in accordance with our values and initiatives, which includes operating for our players, but also a charity as you appropriately mentioned with the bmw championship that was conducted in wilmington last year. Thank you. Mr. That was conducted last year. Du thank you. You want to add anything to that . I completely, obviously support both what you said and a what ron said. Critical is in this Framework Agreement in hope towards the definitive agreement is the control. We absolutely agree with you said. Its not going to get any support without it. Re thank you, both. My time is expired, thank you. I will recognize colleagues for a second round if you wish to use your time. Senator marshall . Thank you for your thoughtful questions, as always and the wisdom that onyou alwayt pass on. I want to. Go back to the antitrust issue just for a second. I am not an anattorney. I am trying to understand the process but its my understanding the pga tour was in some type of a trust issue investigation. If you are Going Forward, what o type of advice for your attorneys giving you if you give this merger . Is it going to increase or decrease your risk to an antitrust issue . Thank you, senator. We were undergoing an investigation with regard to our regulations and how they applied to the players. We have been notified that the antitrust regulators are also going to look at our Framework Agreement. Plan to fully cooperate with ha that investigation. We do see this. To if we are able to move from Framework Agreement to defend d that agreement, its going to heal a fracture. Could have led to less interest and a decrease product and opportunities for all professional golfers. Is that with the attorneys are giving you any advice . The regulators are certainly taking a look at it. It we believe that it should not s, violate the antitrust rules. Plan to fully cooperate with that investigation. Thank you, rimr. Price. Would it be fair to say that some golf venues benefit from l the pga tour and other golf venues were benefiting from the tournaments going on . Thank you, senator. Definitely, with the pga tour is the local communities. N my intention design opens. L they will benefit. The same is true for the lived venues as well. He goes venues were making money. Think that they get paid money. I do not know what the clouds are quite the same. As you are concerned about Going Forward, was there any ve particular venues that were often talked about that there ou was concern about . Any type of money concerns from the menu locations . Are you asking me . We will