Feigning disdain for interracial marriage. I dont know which we are more troubled by. He sincerely was disgusted at the thought of interracial marriage or he would say he would be disgusted by ticket votes. I do think there is evidence here and i dont see how you could say that someone who consistently opposes discriminatory laws against a Certain Group of people, how you can see that person is adequately concerned for their welfare. I think that is a charge that does stick. Not sure he was racist in any sense of the term at the end of his life. Should be clear about specifying the time there. [applause] if you can please stay seated, we are going to begin the Panel Discussion right at the moment. If you were here for the morning session or paying attention, you probably figured out i am not paul. Forgiven the rod charlie confusion but i am definitely not paul. He is listed in your program as moderating the speakers panel. Since we are in the theater, it turns out the understudy is called on to the lead role. Promise i did not break pauls legs or any other body part to get more stage time. Paul can probably do you know he is ok. This is where we allow the speakers to engage with each other and if they want to ask anything of each other. Questions any burning that you didnt have time to ask during the regular panel, this is the time to think about it. Did the speakers have anything they want to ask of one ofther . Or topics conversation, or just open it up to the audience . You gave a robust and really good revisionist account of mary lincoln. There are people who have their doubts, including lincolns secretary. What about that . What about the darker underside . We all have multisides. Mary lincoln had some troubles. She was a very highly emotional woman. I believe she suffered from Mental Health issues that made life difficult. Lincoln was a difficult person to live with. Mary lived out loud. She was emotional and if she was feeling bad or upset she lashed. Ut lincoln was the opposite. He internalized his feelings. Friction in the marriage for sure. The biggest example is after , mary greve. She wore black and she cried her eyes out and she didnt eat. She suffered physically. Lincoln didnt have that luxury. The war was going on. In that instance he really did have to internalize. You can see there were difficulties there. Natural difficulties. You mentioned lincoln had difficulty dealing with the rise which wasklux klan, an armed terrorist organizations engaged in asymmetric warfare against the federal government. I wonder if the klan would have come into existence had lincoln been around and what he would have done had the clan risen . He also was an advocate of there is too much overwhelming racial hatred. Too many disk too many disaffected former confederates. The government did do something. There are the ku klux klan hearings. Oft is a really rich source those hearings, where you can get the testimony of those who were terrorized by the clan. Im not sure how much more effective, short of increasing military presence in the south, which im not sure lincoln wanted. Im just not sure how much could have been done to effectively control it. Another timely topic. Given the voted to black men, think of the level of disenfranchisement. Those were incredibly effective, as well. For me it comes back to the question, that transition from slavery to freedom, and engaging the battle and be willing to make the commitment to make sure that freedom for former slaves had real substance and meaning. That gets to a question i would like to have. Had it lived and guided the country through reconstruction, when we have a Lincoln Memorial . You are raising the question, to what extent has the assassination led to the romanticization that has gone on . Plenty of opposition to lincoln, as well, overtime. There is an antilincoln tradition. So it is hard to say who gets memorialized and who does not. Having preserved the union and freed the slaves, assassination or not, it is a pretty good resume for memorialization. We also think of historians at ranking a lincoln, in somen, and fdr order. Lincoln had not done the reconstruction, and dropped down in the ranking a bit because of the problems of reconstruction. You know about the reputations of a president , how they wax and wane. Is interesting, but the building of the Lincoln Memorial is consecrated. Just a few years before the movie birds of a nation, is shown, the first movie shown in the white house, to woodrow wilson, it depicts what happens in fords theater. An incredible depiction. It also depicts a different lincoln. This lincoln is prosouthern. And he wouldve reconciled with the south on a southern terms. Is ahe rise of the klan shown in the movie to be a response to lincolns assassination because their champion, abraham lincoln, is gone. Dealing with the distorted reputations of president s, look at what happened to lincoln. He was the friend of the south, and had he survived, reconstruction would have been not like it turned out to be from the point of view of former confederates. Me that if to lincoln had lived and not supported the 14th and 15th amendments, and gave a blessing to the idea that blacks would be second citizens in the United States, he would not look very good in our recollection right now. I dont think that is even a possibility. Or may notwhat may anden, that his trajectory movements toward. I think you mentioned his last cabinet meeting, the that at the end of the meeting he was more encouraged than he ever had been attitudes, more with the radical than he had ever been before. Lincoln also wanted to give a lot of money to help rebuild the country. It is much easier in doubt to create the link you wouldve anped for, then the loop th the reality. Some thought that his best was a good thing for the radical cause. I saw a gentleman over here first, and we will continue to go backandforth. Audience it seems there is a threat worse than racism, and that seems to be sexism. The way in which mary lincoln was treated so viciously, and which a candidate for president today is being treated, is totally different than the way men in a similar position would be treated. Do you think that that just does not get enough attention . Bothttitude toward women, 150 years ago and today is just as bad. That it is just id, but certainly, think mary lincoln, was treated badly in washington because she ,as seen as a western rube which could not be further from the truth. Mary did not filter her opinions, which cost her dearly once she got there. Today, women should not have to be suffering from that. But sexism is still a problem, same as racism. We have come a long way, but there is still room for improvement, always. Audience i remember reading that there was a great deal of correspondence burned between mary and abraham lincoln, with the 600 letters that you reference, how much else was there . I wish we knew. We are missing the 1850s. We just dont have a lot of correspondence from the 1850s. And they did burn things. I wish they had been like the ses, and keptdam everything. We are missing a lot. I think it is safe to say that mary probably spent four hours a day writing letters. Only havect that we 850, 900 letters, we are missing a lot. I have no idea how much that might be. But she was a very prolific letter writer. To write,sit down like a lot lot of women in her class during that time. We are missing at least as many and a lot more. Being at the library of congress, we see this a lot. This is an era where not only are people writing a lot, but it is on to grateful taper. And they are in an area where you have gas lamps. To share my archives with you, but it got caught in a flood or a fire. 1871 whenhicago in the big fire there may have been a law that people were not firesly destroying, but and other problems of keeping paper is some of the issues. Audience a couple of observations. Theink the use of o, was justterm negr the language at the time. The other comment and im interested in your reaction, a lot of the racially motivated speeches in campaigns, ipecially with a douglas, think it is political expediency and pandering. What is your reaction to that . I think that anyone at that nme would have known that the word was derogatory. I do agree that a lot of what lincoln said was pandering. I dont think his true views were established or expressed. To some extent, it was necessary to survive lyrically in illinois in 1858. There was a racial demagoguery against lincoln, that if lincoln was elected there would be interracial marriage. Illinois was the most racist state in the north, had the most akoni and life codes. An life codes. It was a heavily democratic state. There was almost no room for antislavery opinions. Lincolnss a light on antislavery comments in that context. Douglas often used the n word openly, and on the floor of the senate, constantly. So much so, that william seward, a senator from new york, after one session walking out said to him, douglas, no one who uses the n word is going to be president. Thank you. This morning you taught us that abraham lincoln, a white man, described himself as a former slave. And i recall that bill clinton, a white man, has been described by some as americas first black president. Based on your research and real life experience, what parallels do you see between president lincoln and president clinton . Thank you for that question. [laughter] came fromlincoln eight povertys povertystricken background. His father was a dirt poor farmer who competed for his wages with slaves in kentucky. He fled to indiana in order to escape that. He was unsuccessful as a farmer. He had been dispossessed in by acky by his farm wealthy person who grabbed the real estate. He was deprived a share of his fathers wealth like his brother , and existing laws of primogeniture. He was often cruel and violent toward his son, who was a gifted, sensitive young man. They lived in the wilderness. The father abandoned his children, lincoln and his older sister, sarah, leaving them a four months to fend for themselves in the wilderness on their own in indiana. They were essentially wild children living among animals in the forest. Lincoln was really saved by his stepmother. Know, camen, as we from a poor background. His father died before he was born. He never knew his father. Mother, in order to support her child, had to leave him with her parents, who ran a general in rural on barter arkansas. That is where bill clinton spent a few years as a child. And she went to new orleans to learn how to be a nurse to support him. She then married a buick dealer in arkansas. High living, stylish man, who was also violent. And we all know the stories of how when bill clinton was a teenager, he had to confront his stepfather when he was shooting a gun and beating his mother, and stopped in. Lincoln never reconciled with his father. Bill clinton did reconcile with his stepfather. When he was dying of cancer, he for him on hisng sick bed. And they had a reconciliation. So i think that there are some similarities in the background. Audience when i think in terms of the comparison to president obama, i think of temperament. Elected, almost all the political cartoons that came out showed lincoln highfiving obama. Obama announced his candidacy in springfield. I always thought his temperament, the left got so annoyed and disgusted with obama i kept thinking of the radical abolitionists and republicans, because lincoln would not act on the slavery or these other issues. Sometimes, as i follow current policies, i see the temperament of gradualism, of being evolutionary, taking all sides in. Obama styles himself after lincoln, certainly in his speaking. President obama is very much inspired by lincoln. His background is very interesting. He had a father who abandoned him and his family. He wrote about it, try to come to terms with it in a literary sense, in a book. Withother also left him her parents, to be raised. So there are all kinds of similarities in these interesting inry how people develop their temperament as president. Audience heres another question on modern comparisons. This time to a republican. Raised two issues about lincolns view of the United States. That lincoln had a view of the United States as a great , almost a experiment missionary kind of view that we held out the great hope for mankind to emulate us. Both secession and slavery would mean the failure of that republican example to the world. It had to be dealt with. In a sense, it was similar to Ronald Reagans view in the 1980s. The u. S. Being the great city on a hill. Another issue, where reagan often denigrated the federal government of the United States, with a statement that, the states came first, they created the federal government. Lincoln had the opposite view, that the federal government actually created the states. There is ample evidence of both, the you think about declaration of independence. I wonder if any of you would like to comment on that, particularly the second issue of the states versus federal government. I dont think, despite the dont seeory, i lincoln as a missed assist about union, he was about democracy. Not the republican experiment. Remember, the Founding Fathers disapproved of democracy. John adams thought it was a epithet, that people could be trusted. Andhe time of lincoln jackson, it is democracy, democracy, democracy. Sure, they wanted to preserve the union and abolished slavery, but ultimately, what so galled him was that an election would be overturned by people deciding to leave. That they would resort to the bullet rather than the ballot. If you look at the gettysburg address and all the elements, and his reelection, that becomes the paramount theme. As for the use of government, yes. Lincoln creates a strong executive. He uses executive authority in a way no other president had before. And as many republicans today anxious about the lincoln legacy. He wasnt seen as a dictator, aching, an aristocrat. On the other hand, the definition of government was pretty simple. He said he believed government should do for the people what it is that they cannot do for themselves. And he was more than happy as president to go along with congress and make sure that all the incredible legislature was passed to do that. Of course, he was a president with a Republican Congress and they could do whatever they wanted. Take on your my question. Speech hecooper union lays out the case for the united compact of as a states, but the federal government creating the states through the constitution. And he goes through it historically and goes through the record of what the framers in their debates about the constitution meant. That is the essence, in great part about that speech. Inaugural, he reminded of Andrew Jacksons acclamation. Who was not necessarily thought of as a person representing the power of government, although strongly connected, made the case that the states did not preexist the federal government, but on the contrary. Lincoln felt himself well and in in the framers jackson, that he was not at all involved in a parliamentary exercise. There was a portrait of jackson he kept in his white house office. Audience i would like to ask themcdermott to describe commitment of mary lincoln, and the legal procedures involved, and i would also like to pose a question. If any other panel member has an opinion . Mary did not think justice was done. The thing about the insanity hearing for me, i would like to relationship her with her last surviving son. I think that is probably the biggest tragedy of it. I think robert cared for his mother and loved her. I think he had genuine concern that she was ill. But there was no assistance that would help her. Positionnow that that was administering drugs and alcohol, and there was no real help for her there. The sad part of it granted, in that time. Time period, it was hard for a woman. They ultimately reconciled at the very, very end, and she gets to see her oldest grandchild. That is the sad part about it. The insanity trial is a hoax in this time period. There is no chance for the defendant to defend themselves, it is not a real trial, it is unfair, there is no genderneutrality at all. They would never have done that to a man. And she was denied her legal rights, simply because she behaved eccentrically. And she did need mental help, no doubt about it, but there was no help for her in the medical profession at the time. The biggest tragedy is the loss of the relationship between her and her last surviving son, and that makes me very sad for her. Let me just say audience to say that mary had a shopping problem is like calling the pope slightly catholic. There is a woman took her husband to the brink of financial ruin at the worst possible time in his life. How do reconcile your depiction of mary as a companionable, womantive wife, with this who, behind his back, literally lied, stole, and brought him to the point of despair . It is hard to reconcile, no doubt about it. That did bring lincoln greek. Undergirding all of those activities of mary, is a real, serious, mental instability. I dont like to recycle history, but it seems clear to me that she probably suffered from manic depression. Spending,ook at the it is a very difficult outgrowth of a manic situation. She was a determined woman with an emotional problem. But i dont think that completely violates the good things that were between the