Transcripts For CSPAN3 Oral Histories 20151114

Justice thomas i did not think i would even see the building where he worked. Mr. Bond did you have some idea of what it might mean, what it could mean as opposed to what it might have turned out to mean . Justice thomas you know, my grandfather was an interesting man. And he felt that as you as these rights were vindicated, that we had an obligation to measure up, to use them. I would give you an example. When the Savannah Public Library finally desegregated and we were allowed to go to the main library, his point was that we were obligated to use it. That is, we had to show up no matter what and we had to read books because we finally had a right to do so. When it came to education, as the rights became available, we had an obligation to use them properly. So he would say to me, in 1964 when i went to the seminary which was previously allwhite, he said, dont shame me and dont shame the race. In other words, you have to perform. Mr. Bond do you think that the brown decision had something to do with opening the doors of the seminary you attended . Justice thomas oh, i think the seminary had an impact in lots of ways, absolutely. That was 1964. That was 10 years later and things were changing slowly. But absolutely i think it got the ball rolling. I think it changed attitudes. It changed the legal arrangements. People like phyllis, on the 11th circuit now, she was on the board of education in savanna and started moving things in that direction back then. And so in talking with her and people like her and previously before that, johnson, who ran the reform, absolutely. There is a combination of things that moved us in that direction. Mr. Bond yet at the same time, you have been critical of the prudence that created brown. Jurisprudence that created brown. Justice thomas oh, not critical in that sense. It couldve been stronger in the sense that we all, or do opinions, you look at another opinion and you say, well, i dont agree with this approach are that. Not with the bottom line, obviously. Mr. Bond what do you think it has turned out to mean all these years later . Justice thomas oh, i think it really did something that couldve been done back when the 1890s. Ecided. And that is to affirm something that is clear in the 14th amendment, and that is that all citizens have the same right. All citizens of the united dates. And it made it possible in a practical way for us to at least have a possibility to have the same education. If you look, for example, i am a big sports fan, and when i grow ew up, games like georgiaflorida meant nothing. It meant nothing because those schools were segregated. If you had Savannah State playing georgia state, that meant something. But now when you watch the georgiaflorida game or the alabama game, you have such a large number of black athletes involved, so you can see. Even just from a perception or entertainment standpoint it is quite different. When you visit the campuses, the georgia campus was not open to me. So i think it has changed quite a bit. Mr. Bond and you can trace all these to brown . Justice thomas oh, obviously. Mr. Bond i have read that you think brown is sort of a precursor of affirmative action. That it opened the door. Justice thomas no, not really. I dont think i have ever said that. Mr. Bond im not quoting you as having said that, but just that brown happened and then the enforcement of brown, or the carrying out of brown, open the door for kind of of racial spoils system. Justice thomas not really. I think that that you know you can debate that, but that is sort of a structural injunction. The remedy is something where you have set up a broad system rather than deal with the case before you. But i dont think that is accurate. Mr. Bond ok, i stand corrected. How do you think brown impacted your life . You talked about these private schools, which are not touched by brown, that were opened you because of brown. Justice thomas oh, i think just sitting here. Just the fact that we are here. Think about it. To the extent that people have sentiments that were inconsistent with the constitution, that were somehow enforceable either by custom or by law, brown was one of the major pieces that begin the erosion of those customs and those attitudes. Whether it is in parks or public facilities, whether it is public accommodations later on, but it changed. I was right there in the late 1960s as it was just beginning to change. It wasnt changed yet, but just think of something as simple as being able to go half a burger. At one of theer big boys in savanna. You couldnt do it. So, yes, it has changed tremendously. You cannot overestimate the significance of it. Mr. Bond who were the people that have been most significant in helping you develop your talents . I know the influence your grandfather had. Justice thomas you know, i would have to really stay close to home with that because as the years have passed and i think about the people i have learned about or the people who have participated in my education, it all goes back to the most crucial parts of my life. And those would be people like my neighbors, my cousins. These were uneducated people in liberty county. You have been there. You have been out in rural parts. And those people had more of a direct influence on me. In the educational arena, i have to start with the nuns because the thing that they never bought into was a sense that somehow we were different. And we were to be treated separately. Their expectations were that we were going to Parochial Schools and we would learn the program of the Parochial School curriculum and there was no difference. But then it goes on from there. Mr. Bond one you picked out for special mention his sister mary. Justice thomas she is still alive. She is in her mid90s. She is an irish immigrant. She went in the convent in 1931. She was originally, as far as our diocese were concerned, at a macula conception, then she came to savannah. Immaculate conception and see appendix in savannah had been orphanages and saint benedicts in savannah had been orphanages. But she was unyielding in their attitude that you would do well. It was consistent with my grandfathers attitude because as a kid, i want to do what 12 and 13yearolds do, i want to have fun. And my grandfathers view, and hers, was that we do not have the luxury in the 1950s to have fun. That we had an obligation to perform. And to do well. Mr. Bond you mentioned neighbors. What about neighbors . What did neighbors do for you . Justice thomas that is a really good question. Nobody has ever asked me that. What they do is they reinforce. The people around you reinforce. For example, if you are learning piano or an instrument or sports, it is called repetition. Repeating it over and over and over and over. Well, neighbors tended to reinforce what you are getting at home, what youre getting at school, what youre getting at your church. The positive things. What you got at the Carnegie Library in savanna. It was all the same message. My cousin patty, ms. Gertrude, ms. Gladys next door, it was all the same message. Mr. Bond are these people sort of like surrogate parents . Justice thomas yes, it was always consistent. They were my neighbors. In the south, of course, when anybody could tell you what to do. They could say go to the store to buy some snuff or whatever they wanted at the time. Some sandbag that it took quite frequently. But the and then i remember one day i was on east broad and henry street just done a few blocks from our house. And we were cautioned that would cross theed to never street against the light. Of course, im a kid so we crossed against the light. And out of the back window of the bus, you heard this voice. I am going to tell on you. That was the worst horse ever to voice ever to hear. That was ms. Gertrude. And before we got home, i dont know how she got the message to my grandmother, but before we got home, she had informed her that we crossed the street against the light, whereupon we were informed that your granddaddy would deal with you when he comes home. And that or he said your daddy will. And that is the worst threat to ever have. Mr. Bond so these people feel free to discipline you . Justice thomas they didnt have the need because they knew the fear of my grandfather was more than enough to discipline us. But if they had to, yes. And then we would get a second one from my grandfather. Mr. Bond oh, boy. [laughter] do you remember specific events that you view as critical to your understanding of American Society and history . Events from the civil rights movement, events in savannah, something that let you know who you were, where you were, what was expected of you or what was not expected of you . Justice thomas that would be hard. I dont think it is a specific event. I think it was a daily event. And it occurred with the neighbors were with the teachers. It is a small world. We lived a short walk from our school, our grammar school. And even a shorter work from high school. Walk from high school. The farm was a 45 minute drive, even in that traffic on highway 17. And it was all the same attitudes, the same culture. So i think as anything of one i dont think of anything as one sporadic event occurring that shaped me, it was a continuum of events. Mr. Bond you write about your grandfather being called boy by a white woman and struggling to restrain himself from stepping a man after another assault. What effects to these have on you . Justice thomas it had a great effect on my grandfather, which in turn headed had an effect on me. He was a man who thought that when you talk to freedom, he talked of independence. That is the ability to do for yourself, the ability to grow your food. And he was a very active member in the naacp. We went to meetings on sunday. He would take us along because we had to learn it he thought that we should learn how to read so that we werent like him where he was having to work with his hands. He wanted us to learn how to work with our minds. But i think it had an influence on him because it wasnt that he had an assault on from the man on his ice truck, it was that he confronted him and said some unpleasant things to him, and my grandfathers reaction was intensely passionate. He felt like he was going to harm that man. The boy incident was different because we were there. The first one, we were not there. We were there as little kids and to watch him first look at us and then look back at her, they look at us again, and then no it is almost as if he had made a decision that i have to raise my boys. Knowing him the discipline it took for him to do the right thing and the responsible thing. Mr. Bond do you think you look he looked at you to test what your reaction would be to this insult . Or to see whether or not you had noticed it and absorbed it in any particular way . Justice thomas i think it was a blow. And i think that he noticed us as we noticed him. And as little kids, i think you think, what you going to do . And how are you going to deal with it . You are the greatest man we know. And some people, you know, they seem emboldened by those kind of things and take off in the wrong direction and do something that can ultimately be selfdestructive. He did the hard thing. To hold his discipline. And that is a lesson to me and my brother that even when you might feel strongly about something or feel justified in doing something, that could be selfdestructive. You must do something that is more prudent and certainly beneficial and constructive in the long run. Mr. Bond maybe putting too much into this, sort of an exercise in selfcontrol. Justice thomas that is right. Mr. Bond look at how i am reacting to this. This is a lesson for you. Justice thomas remember what he said, that is precisely the point i am making. Remember, he always said to us that i will never tell you to do as i say, i always will tell you to do as i do. That is a hard burden to put on yourself. Because we did indeed watch him. We were kids. We were always around him. It isnt like today when parents are hauling kids around to soccer and it is like the parents are working for the kids. It was the other way around. We were like the little ducklings following the leader. Mr. Bond whether any incidents there any incidents in the news when youre growing up in savannah that let you know who you were and what some people thought about you or how you are to think about yourself . Justice thomas oh, i can remember being herded into a little den where the motorola tv was, and the news was a big deal in those days. And we all had to watch what was going on in little rock. And being horrified. And later on, we would see the hosings and we would watch what happened in birmingham. It absolutely had a tremendous impact. Mr. Bond i am the same age as the little rock nine, and they had a big influence on me because they were my age and i saw people like me in birmingham, im guessing in 1963, so these are children roughly your age. The fact that these young people were doing this speed to your speak to you more profoundly than it might have done had they been older people . Justice thomas i was in the ninth grade when that happened. And ninth grade, as a young kid, you begin to feel have a sense that we should be doing something. I can remember my grandfather distinctly telling us, no way, you are not old enough. Your job is to go to school. Your job is to learn. So, yes, you saw it all. You saw other parts of the country and you also read about what was happening in savannah. The lunch counters, the kids from Savannah State with the sit in. My grandfather using his property for bail. Working with the naacp. It can have an effect on you. Mr. Bond a few minutes ago, you mentioned wesley law. A man who, mind you, fleetingly, fleetingly. I knew matters. Leader in race and he was pointed out to me not to somebody i ought to imitate, but somebody doing things for the race. Justice thomas he was revered in our household. The ww law, we called him. He was a mailman and he was very active. He was a leader. He was summoned who was very someone who was very supportive, and we disagreed on some things years later, but those disagreements didnt change things with me and how i looked at him. But he was just a man who stood up when it looked like it was dangerous to stand up. He was one who said, this is wrong. And i am going to work to make changes. The other people who i didnt know who were revered in our household, Aaron Kravitz was a local lawyer in savannah who happened to be jewish and allowed black lawyers to use his library and things like that. And his daughter, phyllis, who is now on the 11th Circuit Court of appeals. They were revered in our house. Number of others who would fight back or who would actually show up to the meeting. That is what my grandfather would talk about. Who showed up, and who didnt show up. Who had property to use for bail money, and who refused to allow their property to be used. There was another gentleman in our area, sam williams, who was a friend of my grandfather, who was also involved. Mr. Bond so they are doing things, not necessarily that you have to do these things, but they are doing things that are admirable and setting an example for others. And the ones who dont do these things are, in effect, letting the community down. Justice thomas it was different then because they didnt always agree on what it was they should be doing. Mr. Bond sure. Justice thomas as you remember years later, when some of us became very radical, we were critical of the sort of go slow approach, or people working within the system. But my grandfathers attitude was that you should do something. You should not just sit and do nothing. And you didnt have to always agree on what that something was, but you dont just accept the status quo because you are lazy or you are fearful. And they were put up, there were shown as examples of people who actually took the risk and made the effort to do something. Mr. Bond even if it was something that you didnt necessarily agree with, they were doing something. Let me take you back to the time when you were at Immaculate Conception seminary. You hear the news of Martin Luther kings assassination. Ian says thisi s. O. B. Is finally dead. What did that do jack up it o . It seems to have set you off the path to priesthood. Justice thomas that year, i was beginning to be a little bit shaky about it. What he said was, that is good, i hope the s. O. B. Died. I wasnt following every move of dr. King because there were others at the time. The beginning of the black power thing, malcolm x has been around, and there were some more dissension than people talk about today, but there was, you know, some dissension. But that wasnt it. It was deeper than that. This was a man of god. Who was, again, whether you agreed or disagreed, was doing something right. And he was doing something for good. Why would a fellow seminary in seminarian wish him dead . That was the end of it. At the same time, Something Else was happening. This sort of racial awareness. The fact that as you got older and you thought more deeply and talking with a fellow seminarian the more i thought about it, the more i thought the church should have been to more to point out that this is morally wrong and objectionable. Of course, that was not the case, at least as i saw it. I was looking at it from my very limited perspective at that time. So yes, it was the end of my vocation. Mr. Bond and then your right to rite later about an experience at holy cross when you joined a protest in Harvard Square in 1970, and then begin to ask yourself, again, according to this interview, why was i doing this rather than using my intellect . Justice thomas well, that goes back to my grandfather. He said that there are gifts that you have, opportunities that you are given to elevate. To become better educated. To become more informed. There was more available, so we had an obligation to do more with it. Not to be in the streets. To be actually learning, to think these things through. Not just reacting on this kind of visceral level. And i couldnt figure out why i was there. And i was very upset. If you were on a lot of these and youcampuses then are 19, 20 years old, a lot of us were upset. But there was more to it. Lets hearken back to the point i made about him, the lady insulting my grandfather in front of us. He had to make some decisions. He had to react in a different way. In a way that he felt was constructive. Again, that example is there. What would he do . I think he expected much more of me than what was eyes then than what i was doing. Mr. Bond you are protesting something in Harvard Square and you said to yourself, my grandfather would have wanted me to do Something Else. What was that Something Else . Justice thomas he wanted me to go to school. He did not have great confidence in me at this point because i had become quite radicalized and he did not understand that. But he would want to me to go to school. And he would want me to learn. Because he never had that chance. And a gift that i did have was the capacity, the ability to do well in school. And to learn. Very rapidly. Mr. Bond so even though he may not have known that you are in Harvard Square marching up and down, he wanted you to be paying attention for what you are at school for. Justice thomas you know, we all have kids, and they go off, and we still have expectations of them. I always dragged around what i thought his expectations were of me. I think i refer to them in my memoirs as a brooding omnipresence. Yesterday was the 21st, 25th anniversary of his death. This week is the 40th anniversary of the assassination of dr. King. And it is just there are some things that are always there. That date is always there. And very poignant. The events of 1968 and april of 1968 are always there and poignant. The assassination of Bobby Kennedy is always there in 1968. The assassination of john f. Kennedy is always there. There are some of these big events back to my grandparents of the ones i have mentioned that are always there. You never forget them as reference points. The person of my grandfather, even to this day, never evaporates. It is always there. That is why when you asked me earlier about the early influences, i go right back to that source because you read all these authors, you listen to your philosophy professors, you meet people over the years, you read all sorts of books, and what i have found is that i have no sort of intimacy with them. I would see the words, i see the written words, i see the thoughts, the ideas, but the person who has touched the whole person is back home. It is my grandparents, really. Mr. Bond so in spite of the reading, the education you have had at college, at yale, im guessing that this is an ever present influence on you. Justice thomas and the most dominant. Mr. Bond despite the fact that he has passed away 25 years ago. Still the most dominant. A remarkable tribute to have. Justice thomas well, i think that you know as i say in my book that he was the greatest man i have ever known. You know, he did the right thing when it was easy to do the wrong thing. And i think that it is easy today to be upset, but is that always the right thing . You and i saw a couple of guys we knew at the bar, and they had a legitimate beef with each other, we wouldnt say go and have it out. We would try to figure out a way. If your kids or your grandkids are having a little disagreement, you pull them apart and say, now, what is the right way to deal with it . And i think that is what he was trying to show us with his own life because there were lots of things, lots of injustices and unfairness that sort of gift sort of nipped away at him, yet he showed us how to deal with all that and continue on in a positive and constructive way. He sits there as that great model. Mr. Bond to push on and hold himself Justice Thomas hold himself are proud, and to achieve and accomplish in spite of it all. And to figure out a way to get the boys to do the same thing. Mr. Bond let me shift gears a little bit. How do you choose your career . Justice thomas you know, i was in the seminary. And i had in law school, i spent a lot of time i always felt that those of us to whom much is given of him, much is expected. And we always, whether we had corn or beans or peas, we always took it to those who needed it. So it came natural. As someone who is going to become a priest, it is a calling so it came natural. As someone who is going to become a priest, it is a calling that you would help other people. Why else . How do you show love but to reach out to those were less fortunate . And so i worked in community programs, even at college and law school. Mental hospitals. We did a free breakfast program. And that is a more radical thing. When i got to law school mr. Bond what was the decision to go to law school . Justice thomas it is tied to going back to savannah. It was a part of the vocation. When you cease being a priest, how do now help . What was going on in savannah in 1967, 1968, 1969 . You know that the society was changing. There is unfairness. And another name you may remember from savannah is bobby yale. Mr. Bond i was just thinking about him. Justice thomas he was my hero. I didnt know him that well, but from a distance, that was the model to go back and be a part of that. Jones, in fact. That was my goal, to go work for him. Mr. Bond [indiscernible] Justice Thomas and i was in that firm. Martin was in that firm, fletcher was there, bill coleman junior was there for one year. And i was there that summer. Royale and, roy allen, who has since passed away, was also there. Mr. Bond i served with roy in the legislature. Justice thomas my point is simply that my specific goal i have never worked for a law from other than that offer. My specific goal was to go back and be a part of that firm. Mr. Bond and how did that not happen . Justice thomas well, i worked there during the summer of 1973 and reached the conclusion that it was not the right place. It was heartbreaking and also caused further distance between my grandfather and me because it was clear then that i would not be returning to savannah at that time. Mr. Bond i wondered was there another opportunity for you legally in savannah besides the Hill Law Firm . Did you approach others . Justice thomas i tried in different ways. I wrote letters and called around. The answer was no. Nor were there any opportunities in atlanta. That is why i didnt wind up in atlanta. Just as i said, i received a series of rejection from atlanta, and that is why i wound up in jefferson city, missouri. Mr. Bond when jackson stopped being mayor after two terms, no law firm in atlanta made him an offer. He had to go to chicago. Anyways, you end up in jefferson city, missouri. And you are doing, as i understand it, mostly tax work. Justice thomas i started out with criminal work. That was the beginning. It was really interesting because you show up, of course you had to pass the bar exam. A great learning experience in many ways. And september 14, i became a member of the bar missouri. September 17, i argued my first case before the Supreme Court of missouri. You can imagine what i was like at 26 years old. But the job was great. It was an enormous amount of work to do. And this was purely it is one of these swim or sink situations. There was very little supervision because people didnt have time. The great part about it was that the work came to you in an indiscriminate manner. There was so much of it it just poured in, and you just did it as it came in. It was a wonderful experience. The other great part of it was that i worked for a person who was a good man. So, even today, i advise my law clerks or any kids who ask me for advice to work for the person, not the job. Because, again, it is like learning from my grandfather. You can learn so much by observing a good person and having a good person, supervisor. Mr. Bond and that was an . Dan . Chuck danforth . Justice thomas yes. He never mixed the politics of his job with the function of the office. So we were never infused confused and we never had to change things because it had his political interests. Mr. Bond you strike me as an unusual person pc he strikes me as unusual person. Justice thomas he is a deeply religious man. And he did not wear that, though, on his sleeves when we worked for him. And we knew he was a minister, but we never saw it. It was only years later that i saw that. But he is just a good man. Mr. Bond is there a point in her life and i want to take you back to your school days when you think to yourself, i am a leader of the people . Other kids follow me. Is there a moment or a time or a place where that strikes you . Justice thomas no. Mr. Bond not at all . Not in grade school, not in high school . Justice thomas i was never a leader in that sense. I never ran for office. I am like i am at the court. I am quite quiet and i didnt ask questions. Mr. Bond in college, are two active in forming the black Student Group . Justice thomas that was because i could type. I had my type writer. That is why i became the secretary because i had a typewriter and i could type and i could edit. Mr. Bond surely it had to be more than that. Justice thomas i did you know when i first arrived on campus, the head of the black Student Union was a younger full wonderful young man, and he heard that i could type. And i was a transfer student. So he brought over the proposed constitution and told me the changes they wanted to make. And it was a handwritten portion. And he said, would you type it up . I said, oh, fine. I typed it up and made the edits. And that was it. I was reliable, lets put it that way. And this was something, again, that came from my grandfather. He said take the tractor and go back to the field and paul. Plow. And he would go back and inspected later on. You have to be reliable without supervision. No, i would never you know my classmates to this day, i was probably one of the least likely people to be leading anything. It just wasnt i didnt see myself that way. Mr. Bond there was never a time where you said i can lead people to do something . I have the ability within myself to get others to follow me. And i dont mean all you blindly, but to follow you. Never at all . Justice thomas no. I was more independent. I would think things through and make my own decision. I probably wasnt a great follower either. If anything, i would say i was just independent, more like my grandfather. I would participate, i was parts i was a part of a lot of things. I was a part of the black Student Union, i was a part of some other organizations, i was a part of the school newspaper, so i did also took things. But i would not have pegs me the only thing i could say about the leadership part of it is. I thought for myself to i like to think things through and i love the idea of talking and persuading. I think we have kind of gotten away from that in the society. Mr. Bond that is a little bit of what i mean. Talking and persuading. You have an idea and a way of thinking, and here is another fellow or classmate or student who thinks differently or doesnt think quite the same way. And you can convince that person. Or you can try. Is it that some aspect of leadership . Justice thomas if you define it that way, then yes. I think that is a part of being educated. I think that is a part of the discipline of education. I think it is the most wonderful thing to open up the mind and think, you dont have to agree with me, but lets talk about this. Whether it is philosophy or history or art, lets just talk about it. It could be the constitution. Because the way that we have kind of gotten out is that gotten now is that it is kind of almost a religious thing. Then it was like you could go i remember in law school we would go over a dollar pitcher of beer and we would talk and the ideas were freeflowing. I found those to be wonderful. If you define it as willing to exchange and debate ideas, then yes, that is a part of leadership. Mr. Bond i have to say, dont you think that people said, oh, Clarence Thomas thinks that way about that . Justice thomas i dont think they said that politely, and they didnt call me clarence. I was interested in everything. If someone had a good argument, i was interested in looking at that argument and taking the time. It is a fascinating part about meeting people because they might come from a different part of the country, they have a different sort of education, they think a different way. It made education exciting. And i think when someone comes in and they already have all the answers, that is a boring person because now they are sort of preaching to you. Whereas i was more interested in processing it all and thinking it through. I think there would be times that people would say generously he has some ideas. Mr. Bond i bet some people said it. When you get to the eeoc, you are leading 3000 people. Clearly by the nature of the job, you are a leader. Did you think of yourself that way there . I know you are a modest guy. Didnt you think that, i am in charge of this . Justice thomas well, it is like actually, it started at the department of education in 1981. All of a sudden, you show up. I was 32 years old. And there are about 800, 900 people in this organization. I said, oh, my goodness, what am i going to do now . So you are sort of selected and you are put in charge. Again, it is sink or swim. And then i go to eeoc. And really it is a spreadout organization with any number of problems. And now you must lead. And what you borrow from by the people that you respect, i respected and admired the way senator danforth did things. So i did have the sort of litmus tests about people. I didnt put people in boxes. You allow people to do their jobs. There are some people that didnt perform, and you got with them as individuals. Dealt with them as individuals. But you didnt put people in boxes. That was the point when you are thrust into a leadership position and you are required when you are in these positions to do the job the best you can, and you must become a leader. Mr. Bond one is you said you are selected. And you are selected for some reason because people cant people say he cant do it. Can do it. Then you have the job and have to demonstrate that you can do the job. So youre not just picked willynilly. Somebody saw in you some quality of leadership. Justice thomas i dont know. You know, i would like to think so, but i just dont know. I have been around washington long enough not to be presumptuous enough to think that somebody saw something particular about me. Mr. Bond nobody is going to say, give him that job, he is going to mess it up. Justice thomas maybe. I dont know. But once i am there then i think you are obligated to perform. My view is very simple about these jobs. That is that you are required to when youre pushing a position to do the job as best you can. And a part of leading is leading by example. So if you expect other people to put the hours in, you put the hours in. If you expect other people to be fair to each other, you have to be fair. If you expect other people to be disciplined in decisionmaking, you have to be disciplined in decisionmaking. I had a rule, for example, one of the hardest things to do in this job is to terminate people. You can ask any executive. Bring a person and terminate people. Over the years, whether i was at monsanto or the department of education on the hill, where ever i was, it always bothered me when someone had to work themselves into a frenzy to terminate a person. To imagine that they are angry with the person, almost like it pep talk before a football game. I always thought you had to do what you had to do. Leading that person from measure of dignity. Leaving that person some measure of dignity. And that is a simple thing, but i always thought it was very, very important. I was put in his positions, and once in those positions, i think you have to learn how to lead. Mr. Bond let me ask you what you see as the difference between vision, philosophy, and style. How do these interact for you . Vision, philosophy, style. Justice thomas wow. How would you define vision . Mr. Bond how would you define vision . Justice thomas i guess, for me, i am not that creative. Lets just take eeoc when i was leading there. I had a sense that an organization should, no matter where it was going, some people might have different policy, but the machinery of it should work. You get in your car and you might decide that you want to drive over to northwest. But you want it to work to get to northwest. I might decide i want to go to the northeast. We may go different directions, but in both cases our expectation is the machinery. Machinery of our vehicle works. That is what i thought about eeoc. First of all, lets just make it work. So my view is to have an organization that worked, and that the people who were integral to it it was not me the people who were integral where the career people. So wherever i was, whatever i was doing, the career people had to buy into it. It was their organization. It was their careers. Some of them had grown up there. So if there was a vision, it was more that. And also, to make sure we had tens of thousands of cases coming through there. There was going to be a tiny fraction that we disagreed about, but the overwhelming all of it, we all agreed on overwhelming bulk of it, we all agreed on it. If it was a vision to have the machine they work, and to have the people who were there as career people would be the major players. Mr. Bond and then philosophy. Justice thomas you know, i dont know if i had a management philosophy other than that a job worth doing is worth doing well. And that everyone should be treated fairly. I was not one of these people i am not really tolerant of people who dont do their work. Im not going to sit here and tell you that. I am not tolerant of me not doing my work. And my view is more like my grandfathers. You are here to do a job. And you do it. If you are not going to do it, you are not going to be here. On the other hand, if you do your job and do it well, i am your best friend. So my best managers always had incomes that exceeded my. Mine. I would send them off to harvard to enhance their careers in different ways. I also had these wonderful programs when you run a fairly decent size organizations, you have some latitude. You put, say, women or minorities and programs that would enhance their careers. And these werent like giving preferences, it was getting that pool of ready, expanding it to move into upper management. Whether it was at eeoc or other agencies. And the good news about that is that in the long run, it worked. They went off and did other things. I felt that my philosophy was that i treat people the way i wanted to be treated. And i treated the organization in a way that i would want to want a manager to treat an organization of line. Mr. Bond and what about style . Justice thomas ima meat and potatoes guy. I dont mean that dietary wise, but im straightforward. Some people tend to be flamboyant. I am not that kind of person. I dont pretend to be that kind of person. What you see is what you get. Im going to tell you exactly what i think. I mark right to play games with you. And i do believe that it is critical of the manager for credibility, for the organization, for yourself to level with people. If you want to be positive, you tell them in a measured way exactly what you think. In a positive way. If you have to bring unpleasant news, there is a decent way to do it. Without destroying another human being. The other thing you know we have the most diverse population Wise Organization probably in the government. So one of the things that you had to be clear about is that we start on a very human level. We are dealing with human beings. Everybody is a human being. I dont pigeonhole people. You dont treat lacks a certain way, hispanics another way, native americans another way, people who were disabled another way, you dont do that. A human being is a human being is a human being. Yes, people have a particular problem because of certain attributes, but that doesnt identify them. They are human beings. I found that works far better than putting people in different pigeonholes and treating them accordingly. Mr. Bond some people categorize the making of leaders in three ways. A, great people cause great event. B, movements cause great leaders. C, conflicts create leaders confluence of events creates leaders appropriate for the times. Does one of these fit you . We have established you are a leader. Justice thomas oh, i dont know. I think i just have to take that as we assume that i am. But i you know i think that at times things are demanded of you. And you can either say no. Think about your life, if there were things that were demanded of you at a certain time think about your life, if there were things that were demanded of you at a certain time. I said, boy, you know, i am sitting here talking to Justice Marshall and im like a kid. Wow. Two and a half hours later it was supposed to be a 10 meter meeting 10 minute meeting, during that two and a half hours i said to him that if i had the courage, when he was going around the south arguing these separate but equal cases eventually leading up to brown, that i wish i could have been there with him but i dont know if i had the courage. He leaned up and said, i had to do in my time when i had to do. I had to do in my time what i had to do. And you have to do in your time what you have to do. And i think it might come down to that. We are called on to do certain things at a certain time. And i do see it as a calling more than ambition or anything else. And i cant say it is planned. I dont know which of those definitions fit. I think that they all may be right to a certain extent. I think it might be an uncertain calculus that leads us to where we are. Mr. Bond do you see your legitimacy as a leader grounded in your ability to persuade people to follow your vision . Or in your ability to articulate the agenda of the movement . Justice thomas well, for us, it is different here at the court. When i was at eeoc, it was meeting people leading people in a direction. And one of the most gratifying things was when i was leaving eeoc, to have people who were somewhat reluctant and reticent when i arrived to be so supportive and to just loving because we had gone in the right direction. Whether no one else knew it, they knew it. And that is all that mattered. Now, up here, this is different. This is more quiet, just like this room for we work alone. Room. We work alone. I work at home. It is more contemplative. That is different. Just think of this. One of the greatest opinions that i think the u. S. Report is the dissent in plessy versus ferguson. Quiet, alone, but still there all this time like a monument to what is right. And then one day, it changes. Everything changes. The leadership becomes more like what my grandfather. A pillar, a rock. You think it through, you make sure it is right, and you leave it there. And maybe one day it will become a touchstone for some movement. As, say, the dissent in plessy became. Mr. Bond in that dissent, and in your work today, part of what you do is to try to convince your colleagues that what you think is the correct way to go, as opposed to what they think, is something different. That you try to achieve through this collegial conversation that you have an through the writings of your opinions that they should join you, they should sign on with you. There has to be a lot of that going on here. Justice thomas it happens in specific cases. It also happens over a common tenure that we have. Justice white said when i got here that what matters now is what you do here. This is an intramural institution in that sense. The members of the court in a professional way live with each other. It is a family. There is a sense of knowledge of each other and intimacy with each other that is unusual and organizations. We are not fighting for a promotion or the Corner Office or anything. It is all about the work. So overlook so the relationships do matter. And one of the things that does matter is your credibility with your colleagues, your honesty with them, how you treat them, how they respect you and you respect to them. I got a note was from one of my colleagues i am not going to give the name, but not Justice Scalia saying that you are a wonderful colleague did i understood what that colleague. I understood what that meant. Our feelings were neutral and we didnt often agree. But it has to do with respecting. I respect my colleagues right to disagree with me at any time. And they, in turn, respect mine. And you learn that from them. So it is the credibility that then becomes the engine to be able to persuade them because they know that you are not playing games, you are not twisting or shading, that it is about the integrity of the body of your work and are thinking that is important. And there are times, again, purely intramural when that changes minds. When they know they can read what you have written and they know that that is precisely what you are saying. There is no alter your motive, no distant agenda that is about these cases. Yes, it does matter, but i dont think it is a tactical writing of an opinion. It is a body of work and a body of the way you conduct yourself. Mr. Bond a case comes before the court and involves some issue you feel strongly on, and you want to take x approach, and you find that your colleague y wants to take the other approach. And there has to be some backandforth between you where he is trying to wring you to his or her side and you are trying to bring them to yours. That must occur. Justice thomas im going to say, i can bring Clarence Thomas over here. You along a little and you can bring me along a little. There will be some common ground. At some point if you have an approach that is fundamentally different from my approach, we are not going to coincide. If you decide to drive northeast and i decide to drive northwest, we are both driving north, but we are not driving towards each other. But you learn how to live with that. What happens over time is that sometimes we see, well maybe you have a point. Not in this specific case, but over a body of cases. Little. Each other a so we are not necessarily heading in the same direction but we are heading closer, in a closer direction. I think what is crucial up here gimmicks, nono marketing, no selfpromotion. We hear eachother, other, we look at the drafts, we talk to each other. You put all your cards on the table face up. If im drafting an opinion that draft goes around to all eight of the other members of the court. I disagree about something, the way it happens is i write a , i dont agreeth with your reasoning in this opinion for these reasons. Justice white used to and his letters by saying, cheers, byron. Warm, friendly, corneal. Then she might say, i will make some adjustments to accommodate your point of view. So its all constant backandforth and over time, we have been together 15 years, so over that time we have to learn how to respect and work with each other. Mr. Bond each of your colleagues is exhibiting some kind of leadership. And you and all of them engage. N this fairly routinely Justice Thomas the thing that is really interesting here, and this goes to the process of education, the truth seeking. Fforts ive often said this job is only easy for people who already have or answer before they start no authority to make any decision. The hard part is what is the right answer under this document or this statue. Thats a little harder. I think my colleagues Justice Powell said when i first arrived here, he said when you reach a point where you think you belong, its time for you to leave. The process councils some humility that it is a lot harder than looking at a bottom line and saying, i agree or disagree. Bond in your years here has your search for truth in a case taken you to a place of surprise too . Justice thomas yes, many cases. Areakes me in places that not necessarily consistent with my personal opinions, as a reaction to things. You saw one young man coming here a minute ago. I tell them up front what my initial reaction is, my instincts, my feelings, and tell them to watch me the way we watch my grandfather. You watch me, and you make sure that i do not put that in that opinion. Do not allow me to do that. Just like discipline, he used to have a discipline. The interesting thing, that these opinions have a long shelf life. Just like plessy had a long and unfortunate shelf life. It could have been written in the right way so easily. I try to not allow my personal views to drift into the opinion except in the appropriate way with respect to jurisprudence. Mr. Bond do you have a general philosophy that guides you through life . How does it sustain you through moments of alienation . Justice thomas im religious. Even when i thought i was religious. Fate has been a central part of what has allowed me to survive in lots of ways. N my memoirs i mentioned even when i wasnt going to church i would make visitation. As far as the way i deal with other people, i believe very strongly that you do unto others as you have them do unto you, that i treat people the way i want to be treated. I dont care who it is. A person can be picking up trash or arguing before the court or whatever. Think the people deserve the same respect that i think i would deserve if i were in that position. Beyond that, there are other things that i could get into. Those are central to me. How does raise consciousness affect your work . Do you see yourself as a leader who advances issues of race or society or both . Is there such a thing as a race transcending leader . Justice thomas lets take the transcendence. Mr. Bond race transcending. Justice thomas there are some things common to us all. When i found myself in the seminary as the only black kid in savannah in the late 1960s, a have to find things we all have in common. We knew we could look at me and see that i was different. But that has been true throughout my life. My grandfathers used to say when people were quick to dismiss somebody, they would say, you can find good in everybody. There are exceptions to that rule, but you can find good in everybody. , ifoln is said to have said i like that fellow, that means i have to get to know him. We can find something with all have thats common. You asked me a few minutes ago about management style of eeoc. Every person i came in contact with, what do we have in common . Worked from there, we established that foundation. Now with respect to raise consciousness we are race conscious. We are a race conscious society. We look at each other in different ways, we segment the population, we fragment the population. As a member of our race, there has been a treatment. I went back recently and found the plantation that im from. Miles there, just a few from where we form, but i had never been allowed to go on it. It was a little eerie. Theres a history there. Now, how do you deal with that . You can deal with that i focusing on that and put yourself right back where you came from, limit yourself. How do you get broader than that . I like to start by thinking and focusing on what we have in race, what transcends that race will always be a conscious part of the way we live. Mr. Bond following that, do you have a different leadership style when you deal with groups that are all black, mixedrace, or all white . The same with groups falling into each category . Justice thomas when i was at eeoc, i had my standard civil right eeo speech. I remember getting up at a conference in hawaii and looking out and said, oh my goodness, this is a totally different population than my standard speech addresses. You had japanese, you had samoans. I said, the speech does not match the audience. Is someously, there tailoring that you do, but theres a core message that is the same. I stay consistent. Even with my law clerks, i dont change the law clerk is black or female or asian. Clerk is if the law black or female or asian. Quote,d the authors the rights of a danger in continually, quote, thinking in terms of race or gender. Until we learn once again to use the language of American Freedom in an appropriate way that embraces all of us, we are going to continue to harm this country. Is there a danger of further divisiveness where we focus on the concept of black leadership . I dont know. i know bill allen. He was probably thinking much more global or higher level than the specificity required for black leadership. That is more of bills very erudite and brilliant political theorists and philosopher. I think that you have to recognize that there are race specificproblems, problems to say, native americans or whites or elderly people. If you look at the 14th amendment, it doesnt break those groups. The amendment that does the hard work in the area of race. It gives us rights as citizens. Person, what we that we werefor is actually being denied the full list of the benefit of that amendment, whether its in brown or any of the other cases. I think that the constitution gives us rights as citizens, and we should make the argument or have the discussion on that level, but you have to always recognize that there are specific problems with members of different groups. What i think is a matter of Constitutional Rights on some higher plane. Mr. Bond do you feel that black leaders have an obligation to help other africanamericans . Is there a point at which that obligation and someone can pursue his or her own ambitions . Let me just say, i havent had those ambitions. I know this sounds odd, but my life has been one of doing what i was supposed to do. Doing the best job i could and the rest happened we are obligated to help people, and certainly those less fortunate. I can be even more specific. Comewho look like me who from my neighborhood, i have a special affinity for. But my view is that i help anybody who is trying who is less fortunate. Wonderfulis week this organization ive been a part of since ive been on the court. Kids have been abused, come from difficult circumstances, and its a way to help kids who were, who are in the circumstances i was in at their age, and some a lot worse off. Its not just black, its not just women, its not just hispanic or mixed race, its everybody. We are obligated to help others. Mr. Bond youve written about the destructiveness of slavery segregation and talked about the damage done. Can the Playing Field be leveled, and can government level the Playing Field, and can it do so without breeding the kind of dependency that youve also talked about . Thats the one that has you pacing at 2 00 in the morning. Policyly when i was a making role, always worried that great how far can you go without your solution becoming as harmful as what you thought the problem was . My grandfather isnt that fascinating, he used to go off in the woods early in the morning and come back later. He didnt kill anything. He had his gun across his shoulder and he would just come back and then he would go in have breakfast great he said he was just thinking. These were the same problems he was thinking about, how do you help without hurting . Wrongetimes ask the questions. There is a lot of harm, whether its a broken family, its crime , its habits, its just negative influences. Talk abouttrying to this. When you create these headwinds that prevent people based on race from accomplishing things, the government speaks to that, that you have to remedy that. We attempted to do it in specific areas when i was at eeoc. I dont know how global you can make that without running into constitutional limitations. I also dont know how far you go doing that without creating or causing additional harm. Let me give an example. I cant remember when i was at the department of education, i write about this in the book, that the effort was to certainly desegregate the universities in the south. Efforts,f the other was tories of that if not, the black there was this subliminal or implicit argument that they have to be eliminated, like savannah not links to university, for example, the smaller ones. I thought, why would you do that to rectify a problem . Further example of that is my high school in savannah. It has turned out all these. Onderful kids 98, 90 ninth percentile oin the psats were there, in an allblack high school. 1973 becauseed in of what the experts said, that in part, the social situation, it was all black. To me the remedy became worse. First of all i saw nothing wrong with the school. But that is an absurd application of a remnant. I dont know. I dont know how far you go. Has very strict limits, in my opinion, on the categoryce and sex straight it says citizenship and person. I think we have to be very careful that we are not locking in precedents that in the long run will do greater harm. Mr. Bond i dont remember who said years ago, if you want to get beyond race, you have to go to race. Justice thomas i dont know what that means. Mr. Bond i dont know what you means. I think it means you cant talk unlessemedies to race those remedies have race consciousness in them. Justice thomas i have read it and reread it, i dont know. In order to be dry, you must be wet. Rate, its a great case mr. Bond at any rate, its a great case. A case involving the exclusion of blacks from the troopers. Finally, after i think three higher Court Decision said to alabama, you will hire one black state trooper for every white ,tate trooper, imposed a quota which is an anathema to some people. Get beyond race, they had to go to race as a remedy. Justice thomas sometimes when you have a specific case, you have a class action, for example, and i assume that was a classaction. The courts had to impose remedies for that grade you or i might disagree the remedy. Sometimes the remedy has to be very firm and clear cut. Now lets say they had been cooperative and gone on a done what they were supposed to do. That may have been inappropriate. I dont have the answers for all these cases. Toend to be very reticent having lived in a race conscious environment where we were actually excluded because of race, to now say somehow im comfortable discounting my race. We can build into the constitution certain exclusions that will come back to haunt us. Mr. Bond what do you see as your greatest contribution as an africanamerican leader . You cant deny the you are a leader. Justice thomas i dont think in those terms. I think that when you are called upon to do a job, you do it the best you can. Awaywhen its over, you go and you be grateful for the opportunities, you had a chance to do it. Thats it. Legacy,look back on the whether or not how im going to be treated in books or anything like that. I think that is inking too highly of yourself great i think its about the job, and the cases that you sit on the you try to make sure you do it right. My grandfather, when i went to seminary, he said, boy, dont shame me, and dont shame the race. Just do your job. I dont play games. I dont do things to be flamboyant or draw attention. I just do my job. The proof of the putting on all the talk about style and this and that when we are long gone, the proof is in the u. S. Report. We dont have a clue what harlem style was. What we do know about it was that dissent in plessy versus ferguson. Have any cluer i what the circumstances will be in this country 50 or 100 years from now. We dont know which cases are going to jump out of those u. S. Reports and be the determinative case. I live with the comfort that these principles have a much longer shelf life than these quick flash in the plan pan sort of fats that come on, whether jurisprudential he, socially, or otherwise, or political. It is critical. All i want to do is do this job in a way that when i look at that bust of my grandfather overlooking me, know that he would say its a job well done. When writing an opinion, are you conscious of those 50 years that have yet to come . Justice thomas im conscious that this will be here a long time. I dont know to what you say might be but you thats a very good question, by the way. I tell my law clerks that we are not writing current events, we are writing for much longer periods. Again, look at plessy. Im not saying anything i have written rivals the dissent of plessy. These opinions have an enormously long shelf life. It is critical that they not be based on Shifting Sands of fads and what is popular, but rather principles that are locked in and that will be here when the blows inn or the wind a different direction 50 years from now. Racend in his book, matters, cornell west writes, the crisis of leadership is a symptom of black distance from a vibrant tradition of resistance, from a Vital Community bonded by ethical ideas, and from a credible sense of political struggle. Do you see a crisis of leadership in black communities today . If you do, what contributes to it . Justice thomas i dont know. I just see leaders. Look, we have gentlemen mixedrace, a great chance to be president of the united states. I think the Current Governor of new york is black. Current governor of massachusetts. Weve had the governor of virginia. I am more optimistic. I think the problems are heartbreaking. I go back to savannah, it breaks my heart. Its been breaking my heart for most of my life, that you cant , even with people who are close to you just say, look my grandfather said, the library is open now p can go. Open now. You can go. Im not going to condemn leadership i dont know that well. I think if you say that often enough, the young kids who could be the leaders might not want to , or might feel it is too steep a hill to climb. I see the young kids i see on this University Campuses in the law schools, im not feeling that theres a crisis. There might be a gap or not a great leader in this particular locale, but i see it in other generational leaders coming up and ready to go. Know, you might have a point that im missing, but i dont feel that negative toward leadership. Leaders what kind of does contemporary society demand and how will future problems demand different leadership types . Who do we need now . Wet kinds might me need need in the future . I have noomas particular skill or certain knowledge to even comment on it, but my own personal concern sometimes is that people find out through polls or fingers to the wind where people are going, and they jump in front of them and call themselves leaders. I dont think thats what a leader is. I go back to my grandfather. I think youve got to have some principles you believe in that are important to you. People, io persuade think the ability to communicate when its not looking real good, you need some courage. I remember this wonderful quote that i wont get right, churchill, after his political career is supposed to be over and hes going to be named prime minister, he is quoted as having said something to the effect my wholeas as though life was mere preparation for this moment. I dont know, i think the things you do need in this job is part, i think you need to hold even when you are being tempted by praise, you need to remain firm and principled when you are being beaten by criticism. There are things when you were in liberty county, you are not safe. What propelled you . What was important to you . Why was it worth the risk . What caused you to pull up the courage that if you got in a rural area where you got isolated, it was going to be difficult for you . What is it that gave my grandfather the courage to strike out on his own . I dont know. I think there is something that was in you that said no matter what, im going to stand out. Think that leadership perhaps first and foremost requires fortitude. Mr. Bond do you think for your grandfather and others like him, that thing was conviction that he stood for something that was right and just and therefore had a responsibility to demonstrate it to others . Justice thomas i think so. I think it was beyond that. Includes raising showing how you can live as an independent black south,the segregated showing how a motherless and fatherless child could survive. Yeah, i think it was worth it to him. And for me. I borrowed this from that movie, saving private ryan, where captain miller is asking Sergeant Ryan right at the end of it, when all these guys have died to save private ryan, he asked him these words or told him, earn this. With my grandfather, what ive got to do and what ive got to do because of you and other people who risked it, youve got to earn it. You do it not in a sense that you are mimicking or being , butolled or we agree there is, just like the library, when people fight for us to be in the library, how do you earn it . Do you go and say thank you . Or do you go to the library and use it . In a sense, that was for him that he was doing the right thing and for us, that we earned the right to benefit from the right thing. Youbond the values that talk about teachable, we know theyre teachable on an individual basis, grandfather to you and your brother, but are they teachable on a larger basis in a classroom, to older children . Can you transmit this . Justice thomas troubled all over this and and then in some been in some different environments. When you speak to kids and explain to them, you dont have an agenda, you just care about them, they can sense it. In a room setting with black law students at the aftersity of georgia and a couple hours, they understand what youre saying. He almost have to cut through or cynicism the layers of and mistrust. Thats the unfortunate part. As soon as you connect on a sincere level and you tell them ors is not about you or me you having a particular point of view, this is about you thinking about your lives and the fact that you are in law school you are the leaders. They do get it. ,ou go to these little schools they want to believe but you have to give them something to believe. I quote a janitor across the street one morning when i was coming in all down and despondent. He made it clear to me you cannot give what you do not have. You go to these kids and you dont have anything constructive, nothing positive comes you are worried about your own selfinterest. They sell into it sense it. The bottom line answer is yes, you can influence them. Will you influence them 100 . No but you can influence 20 , 30 , 50 , the kids who will be the leaders. You can do it by example but you can also do it by showing them how much you care about them and how sincere you are about your ideas and the fact you are not requiring them to agree with you on the bottom one but to be independent and have their own thoughts. Thank you for being with us. Support you for your and to the kids for just saying no. Thank you. [applause] is the woman of the future will feel truly free to follow whatever paths. I think they thought the white glamorous and your role was so glamorous, your life was so glamorous, and all they and meeting parties people. Ive got to tell you i never worked harder in my life. Nancy reagan served as longtime political partner, ferocious protector, and ultimately as caretaker for president ronald reagan. Key stafftive with decisions, policymaking, and campaigning. She made drug user signature initiative. , this sunday night at 8 00 p. M. Eastern on first ladies. From Martha Washington to michelle obama. Sunday at 8 00 p. M. Eastern on cspan3. Each week, American History tvs artifacts takes you to museums and historic places. We visit the National World War Ii Museum to learn about the uss tang and her crew, a submarine that conducted several recordsetting missions. The uss tang was built in 1943 and commissioned in 1944. Which at themarine time was the most modern of the day. For her sides, she was a rather large submarine. A crew of about 87