I tried to join the b12 navy program in order to try to finish my studies. And to go into the navy. Married, i went through the process of joining, and found out that i could not get in if i was married. I had a decision to make. And i chose marriage. Later, i, about a year graduated after being interviewed by eastman kodak, to some unknown location to help the war effort. Up and found out we would be going to oak ridge. We purchased a car, 450, and loaded up what little belongings we had. After graduation in august 1943, who traveled to tennessee w e traveled to tennessee. My wifes decision was to go with me, even though she was pregnant by three months. On the way down, we came through ,he beautiful town of norris which we call our shangrila. We were able to find an attic to live in, which had no bathroom or anything like that. It was a blessing for my wife because she was in a peaceful locale. And we had made wonderful friends that house dust. That was a big plus. That housed us. When the time came for delivering our son, i started talking with the housing people. We could no longer live in the attic. Had an indecision. Maybe, maybe not. The friday before she was to , ie home from the hospital went into the Housing Office and told them that, well, make up your mind. The ambulance is going to bring my son to my doorstep on tuesday morning. To your doorstep on tuesday morning. Later that day, i had the choice of 3000. So we moved to oak ridge. I had the choice of 3 houses. Tell me what your assignment was. Seth i was assigned to be an engineer in the Engineering Department of 112. I worked in machine design, also with some knowledge of electronics. Work privileged to get to device, and divide that for the and design that for the beta production buildings. I count that as one of the highlights of my experience there. I put that probably below the friends that i made and maybe the opportunity to witness human rights during my stay at y12. Ridge, it was such a cosmopolitan city, there were so many different ideas about living and people and mixing. We had sundays without Grocery Stores opening. No movies. Racial issues at that time. I guess the one instance i remember so vividly was that in writing the buses riding the buses, which were so well 150ded, we had sold our automobile at the time and were riding buses. On the way to knoxville, i happened to get on and sit in the last remaining seat. Negro was sitting there halfway back in the bus. Out. Ly after, we started the bus driver noted that a black man was not sitting on the back row where he was supposed to be. He stopped the bus along side of still seeand i can him getting up and walking back. To makerabbing the guy and get back to where he is supposed to be. Of course, i had to get up. It kind of angered me very much. I went to the back row with him and sat down with him. Thats just one instance of what i mean. Wars. E do you have any other remembrances along those lines . How did racial segregation and integration work . Seth i thought it worked very well, in general. Instancesvery few where there were problems. Of course, i just saw a small part of it. Any blacks in the y12 area where you worked . Seth yes. There were lots of blacks in the y12 area. I guess a majority of the blacks had labor jobs. Of course, they had us segregated. They had a segregated area where they lived, which was unfortunate. Just a part of life in this area at the time. Ever go to the alexander inn and have dessert . Just interviewed a woman whose mother was a desert girl there. Knew about the alexander inn, but never went there. Guess just because it wasnt in our path to do so. Furnished prefab house on east drive, near the radio station. Rudefe had quite a awakening when she had to move there because of the problems that she had to face as a new mother. She had to wash all of her washing on a washboard in the sink. She had poison ivy all through the backyard where she tried to hang her clothes. She had to go to the Grocery Store by walking or hitchhiking, since we has new car. Since we had no car. Things like that. We both during this period graduated from remnants of adolescence into young adulthood. Tell me more about your job. You were an engineer, designing the beta devices. What did you have to work with . Describe what you did every day. Seth the Engineering Department is where i started to work. Supervisors that had come from Mississippi State university. People inr about 20 our group that was assigned for design work on the beta proje ct. At that time, it had a lot more than just the calutron to work with. Parts of the process, piping. My job was essentially to design and improve valves, which was a vital part of the process. Later, i was moved with a small group of about 12 people across the street up on the hill in the building to work on the design of the calutron itself. I was happy to be selected for that job, because we primarily worked on the collector end of the calutron and designed that portion of it where it collected the uranium, isolated and separated them from each other. Followup. Uild and my time was spent between the design of it and the building of the prototype. Testing was the next step. Then in the production phase. Thats pretty well took care of the rest of my time in y12. After the war ended in february of 1946. When a lot of people were leaving. I was started work, assigned to the engineering building, 9731 i believe. Experienceique because of the size of the drafting room that i worked in. That was only a part of it. Metallurgical consultants from the navy had a portion. They were in an entirely Different Group that we could go to for assistance on questions how they couldd be worked together. With was a went group of about 20 people in the northern end of the building, i believe. Then there were other groups next to us and in the middle of the building and on down to the other end, which probably consisted of, im just guessing, 200 or more people. That was a fantastic effort that was produced to get things done fast and make them work. In august in the first alpha build, when that was being finished, the process wouldnt work. Then would not everybody, but a lot of people would pull off the regular task to find out why the production building did not work. I did not have as much input as one of my carpool members who became pretty famous. He is well known worldwide. He helped find out exactly what the problem was. Obstruction of the cooling system from iron filings that got into the copper cooling system. Concerned. As really they did what they could from that standpoint. Did you know that they suspected sabotage . With that ever talked about . Seth yes, i heard that was a possibility. Oh yes. Effort to get the output one ge t the alpha one building going, there were a lot of idea on what might have happened. One of the things we heard, was that sabotage was involved. I never heard definitely that that was true or not. Interviewed someone else who were hired by the fcc to be counterintelligence to keep an eye on those there. Seth seriously . Can you talk about a security. Can you talk about security . Seth one of the things that was interesting to me was how well security was handled throughout my work. People that lot of were hired as guards had to be trained because of the numbers required. I had one personal experience where i was involved with security in a way. We were instructed in wearing our badges, to put the badge on her collar. On our collar. The metal used in the badges created real dirty spots on the color. On the collar. All the engineers were instructed to wear white shirts and ties if you were not in the military. I clipped my badge on my tie pin to protect my shirt. Instructions, which they followed very seriously. One morning, i walked in and showed my badge. He said very abruptly, put that up on your collar. Squirt,e, being a young i said, what is wrong with it where it is . And the guard that his revival his revolver and stuck it on my face and said, it on your collar. Put it on your collar. I said, okay. [laughter] that was how security worked. After that, i was a much better person for it. There were a knew lot of people known to me that were doing work in security. Occasionally we see somebody missing from their workplace and never come back. We would hear a story about, well, he had done something orng and had interrupted disregarded their plans. I believe that. Later, there were more people than i thought there were in the general populace that were keeping track on everybody. As an engineer, the compartmentalization of the problem of keeping everybody slightly in the dark about the project . Started work, the first week or so, we were giving training of any training buildings in the center of oak ridge. Week, i metfirst one of my real great friends that later became a lifelong friend. We discussed privately what they were doing. I had no idea. Of course, the policy was to only teach people what they needed to know. I think the policy was a good one, but i was fortunate that my friend came from the men of the state came from the university of minnesota and graduated at the same time. He worked under a professor who was in on the whole business at oak ridge. Work at the university of minnesota helped in the the y12 project separation of isotopes of uranium. He confided in me what was going on. I knew that in three months, by the time i got here, what was going on. A lot of people never did know, i suppose. I think the policy was good. My feeling was it didnt interfere with progress, the way it was handled. You are good at funny stories. Do you have any more . [laughter] seth okay, i didnt know. Its helpful to have some guidance. Seth you have to hear the story of my 1937 ford. Lived in a noras at first in norris at first, as i mentioned, we lived there seven months in the attic on pine road. David, whoross from was in charge of the tba. We had good neighbors. With my 150 ford, i had to spend 300400 dollars giving everything fixed so that it would be reliable. Months carpool for seven. We had three other people inside myself other people beside myself. This 1937 ford, even with new brakes, that particular year it was noted for adjustment. For 3 days, we would drive with breaks. Week,st two days of the we drove within emergency brake only because of the adjustments. Then on weekends, i spent a lot of my time getting under and adjusting cables so that it would run next week. None of my carpool ever left me, and a never understood why because of some of the experiences that we had. 3 notable ones. I am most ran a fire truck off the road. The second one was, in the old road going into clinton, you have to go over a hill down into the center of the city. Every night we would shift gears into second as we started down the hill. As we came up over the hill as well. There was a stoplight at the bottom right where the courthouse is. Up, it coming automatically shifted into second, but the traffic had backed up to the top of the hill. I couldnt stop, so i had to go into the left lane and pray that no one was going to come up in the left lane while we were going down. And it worked out. But things like that you never forget. [laughter] how dou feel about you feel when they announced that the war was ended and that the bomb had been dropped . Seth the day we learned that the atom bomb had been dropped and the second bomb were dropped and the war was over of course, there was a lot of elation throughout the engineering to permit, and i supposed all of y12. The Engineering Department. Instructed we were to come in the next morning and work as usual, i dont think half of the people came in. I was one that didnt. I went fishing itead. It felt like a burden lifted off your shoulders. Also i went to the barbershop. Of course, the barber had the morning paper. This was after the first one was dropped. That is when i went to the barbershop. Said, atomic bomb. I can remember just what it said. But the barber, of course, did know anything about what was going on. I remember him asking me as i sat in the chair, if i knew what atomic was. Good story. How did your wife manage . Can you tell me more about her life . Seth my wife really had the job to raise a young baby. When we moved to oak ridge into ve, shefab on east dri had to take the role of a pioneer woman. Because she had to walk to the Grocery Store, or even hitchhike. Everybody was so friendly and they picked up people to help each other. That was a big help. Washing wi to do the th a scrub board. And do it in the sink. Had to hang out her clothes that were washed on a line in the back. The flat tops in the summer got so hot that the interior of the house was over 90 degrees. Said, igineer, i thought of evaporating cooling that could help. I bought a step ladder and i started pouring buckets of water on the roof, the flattop roof, which really helped to cool the house. Some of the neighbors saw what i was doing, and pretty soon, all of them down the street, everybody was pouring water on the roof to keep cool. [laughter] with thoseput up kinds of living conditions. We were in a lower place, being at the bottom of the hill. When it rained, the front yard was mud. We had wooden sidewalks. Rats inhabited underneath the sidewalks. She had few outlets, because eating a mother, a lot of mother, single women had places to do things together. Ourwas isolated after shangrila in norris. Two months after having our new son, he was not doing well at all. Hospital. The hed been going to an army doctor, where she had been taking him. The army doctor we had, i dont know about others, but he did not know much about babies. Out that the baby had severe malnutrition. He thought she was being fed, but was not getting enough to eat. It ended up that we had to take the baby back to my home my parents home in indiana. As soon as they got him there, he responded to treatment very rapidly. Months, we had a turnaround in his health. He was able to come back to oak ridge. As we made friends, things improved greatly. I think the salvation for my wife was the great friends that we made with our nextdoor neighbors, who had come down from virginia. He had worked and in and munitions plant an ammunitions plant in southern virginia and transferred down. They were about our age. And they had a new girl that was just less than oneyearold. Someone toe had relate to. One of the interesting stories he workede neighbors, in one of the alpha buildings as an electrician. Day, he was inside the dder andk on the la was working on the electrical system. Some other worker shortcircuited the safety preventing electricity to go into the system where he was working. Of current, electrical current, hitting him through his hands, came out his elbows and is just. He showed us later the big bruises. Elbows and hsis chest. The only thing that saved his life was being on a ladder, i guess. He was unconscious. A secretout later that service man followed him for 30 days after got out of the hospital because they didnt know exactly how he lived. They didnt know what would happen over the short term from this accident. It was a very unfortunate accident, but he lived many years later. He lived into his 70s. Also. A friend for life, he was very fortunate to be alive after that. They moved back to virginia and went into gary farming there. Went into gary farming 0 d airy farming there. Were there many safety problems like that . Where peopledents had to be hospitalized . Seth the question of safety was themportance to all of supervisory personnel. The pressure to get everything done so fast, though, probably caused some omissions of things that should have been done in the name of safety. Hear of a lot of incidences where there were safety problems that affected peoples lives. I dont know the statistics. I am sure there are. You think of . An you have some great anecdotes and great stories. Seth thank you. Is there Something Else that i should try to share or record . Seth could a look at my notes . [laughter] just a moment . Oh yes. Anytime . Mentioned my supervisor and his direction. Probably in his mid20s, maybe late 20s. He loved to drink scotch, whiskey. Of oak ridge was set up so that booze was prohibited. I had forgotten that when my wife and i took a home trip at christmas. I remembered how he liked scotch. I thought, i will just take him a bottle of scotch. Areught the bottle and infants on our infant son, who at that time was about nine months old. Coming back, we got off the and a horriblen thought came to my mind. I cant get the scotch into oak ridge. We were waiting for the bus to go to oak ridge. Ake all friendly oak ridgers, fellow said, i am going that way, just ride with us. So we got in the back seat, my wife and the baby and i, and we rode. When we came to the gate of oak ridge, i didnt know what to do with the bottle of scotch. We were instructed to get out of the car. They opened the trunk up to check all of our luggage. I guess that is about the only time i remove her doing something i remember doing something that was not approved. What i did was hold the baby in his blanket, it was cold weather, input the bottle of scotch and put the bottle of scotch in with the baby. They checked the luggage, but didnt find the bottle of scotch. [laughter] so my boss got his bottle of scotch. Story is, i think for people who might not know, this friend that was from friend and another the three of us all liked music. I played the piano somewhat. The friend from minnesota and nick, from vanderbilt, the three of us would come out. My wife and i had bought a p l bought a piano. The first two pieces of furniture we had was a piano of all things, because we liked music, and a floor lamp, because the rest of the house was furnished. Consisted of our friends coming out to the house, and the three of us would compose music as a hobby. I would compose the music and they would supply most of the words. Which later, two of our songs got copyrights on. ,he point i wanted to mention they later went on to become the first owners of the music box in oak ridge. Most people do not know that was true. Yearsad it only a couple before they passed it on. Have. About all i im curious, did you write any pieces about oak ridge . Seth no, we didnt do that. It was more popular music. Had become3 interested in popular type of music. Do you have any recordings of it . Wife still has recordings of some of the music that we composed together. When they started the music box, we would go down to the store square. Was in jackson there. D record who laterme, the man bought into it was working with them. We had a lot of fun together that way. My wife liked music too. Singing and everything. She had done a lot of singing during her earlier years. Weekend, threeay days of politics, books, and american history. A full day of special programs on cspan. Here are a few of the features for labor day monday, beginning at 10 00 a. M. Eastern. A town hall event in seattle discusses the pros and cons of the big data and civil liberties. Later that evening at 6 30, a debate on how to reduce property